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Seanad Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 17 Jun 1987

Vol. 116 No. 9

Irish Immigrants in US: Motion.

I move:

That Seanad Éireann calls on the Government to express its concern to the US Authorities on the implications of the US Immigration Bill for young Irish immigrants now working in the United States.

This motion comes at a time when our country is facing its most severe economic test. Unemployment is at an unacceptably high level. People battered by the past few years of economic recession once again have turned on what is euphemistically referred to as the safety valve of the nation, emigration. This most emotive of words in the Irish lexicon is rarely debated by Governments. mainly because they somehow feel that by not debating it it might perhaps go away. I can remember requesting a former Minister for Finance to allocate a sum of money to the Irish Centre in London only to be told that by making such an allocation at that time the Government would be perceived to be encouraging emigration. Happily that point of view no longer prevails and, in recent years, successive Governments have been reasonably generous within the budgetary restrictions imposed by the recession.

In this context I should like to pay tribute to the Minister for Labour, Deputy Ahern, and his colleagues in Government for their substantial increase in the allocation to DION formerly the Committee on Welfare Services Abroad of which I was proud to be a member until the Coalition Government revamped the committee and revamped me out of it. However, this motion is about the plight of our young Irish citizens in America who, because of recent US legislation, find themselves in a political limbo. There are some who will argue that the laws and internal affairs of another State are of no interest to us and that a debate on a motion calling for change in such laws has no place in our Legislature. Due to the emotive nature of the work "emigration" and its place in the history of this country it is a subject that is rarely debated, yet its consequences affect every family in every town and village in Ireland.

In recent years there has been an exodus of youth from this State which parallels in its enormity the worst years of the forties and fifties. Many of these young people, fresh from our educational establishments, well educated, intelligent and articulate, have found themselves caught in the spiral of youth unemployment and, perceiving no immediate future other than the dole, have opted for emigration. Between 30,000 and 50,000 young people under the age of 26 are alleged to have left Ireland in 1986. In that context I should like to quote from a newspaper which is published in America, The Irishman, going back to the pre 1981 period, by Niall O'Dowd in which he said:

It is a great achievement that no more will the Irish Paddy arrive on some foreign shore equipped for the lifestyle he has to adopt, nor will some of our finest people be stamped for export at an early age. The physical and mental draining of Ireland's talents has gone on long enough. It is a poor country that cannot support and nurture her own people and provide them with basic economic and social stability. Ireland has at last begun to achieve that. We Irish in America should be justly proud that the Irish Government has finally grasped the nettle of emigration and banished its sting, hopefully forever.

The situation has got so much worse. From 1981 to 1982 the Irish in America expected that emigration had finally ceased and that only those who wished to emigrate voluntarily would be coming to America in the future. In San Francisco in 1982 the GAA, that great bellwether organisation of how emigration stands, was down to three teams, one of them totally composed of Irish Americans and little hope was held out for the future of the games. Contrast that with the middle of 1985 when there were no fewer than seven GAA teams, now swelled to nine, and new Irish bars and community organisations were starting up all over. A most unlikely renaissance in native Irish activities had begun at that time and has continued, one that was mirrored in five other major cities across the country. New York, Philadelphia, Boston, Chicago and Los Angeles. In Los Angeles they did not have a GAA team in the city since 1965. Suddenly overnight there were four and another in San Diego which had never, to the knowledge of people in that area, fielded an Irish football team.

All these changes have come about because of the numbers leaving Ireland. New organisations have sprouted up; old ones have become regenerated. In November many of these people took the plane to America, in many cases with a return ticket in one hand and a tourist visa in the other. On arrival in New York, Boston or Chicago or any of the other cities to which the Irish have traditionally gravitated, the newly arrived immigrant quickly assimilated into the sub culture and within days was working illegally minus the green card and at a job well below what his Irish education had prepared him for. So Ireland had lost one more bright, inventive, educated youngster.

However, in November last year a new law was passed in the United States making it an offence from June 1 of this year to give an illegal alien a job. The American Government are taking their work very seriously indeed. On May 1 the Immigration and Naturalisation Service opened 108 offices throughout the country to process applications for legal status from illegal aliens who have lived in the country for five years and are now eligible for legal status and, if they so desire, ultimately US citizenship. From 1 June this year employers become liable for warnings and from next year for fines ranging from $250 to $10,000 if they are found to be employing illegal aliens. These penalties are designed to discourage illegal immigration by drying up job prospects. They are also causing great confusion and distress to the Irish immigrant community in the United States.

According to a report in The Economist of 21 March 1987, page 47, column 1:

A New York state task force recently reported many cases of discrimination and threats of unjustified dismissal. Similar complaints are pouring into voluntary agencies. The law provides for a special counsel to hear claims of unfair treatment and to provide redress more quickly and cheaply than the courts.

However, the American Justice Department, which never really wanted special counsel, has yet to appoint one. The New York task force argue that this default by the Federal Government has had an alarming effect. One such effect may be to cost some of our citizens any chance of a hearing since the deadline for filing grievances is six months after the alleged offence. The Immigration and Naturalisation Service created fresh controversy when they stated that the charge for the legalisation process is $185 for the individual and $420 for a family. On this question of employing legal counsel it has come to my attention that unscrupulous US based lawyers are advertising for business among the Irish community at allegedly cheap prices and promising success. The Irish community would be well advised to avoid such rip off merchants and seek reputable legal opinion on their status before parting with their hard earned money.

How does the new law affect the Irish citizen working illegally in the United States? The law is retrospective and the amnesty applies only to those illegal immigrants who entered the United States prior to 1982. According to the most recent figures for immigration from Ireland, the trickle became a flood only since 1982. Consequently the vast majority of young Irish illegals in the United States are not eligible for amnesty under the new law. The situation is now acute. Since 1 June the employer must demand proof of the right to work, the elusive green card, on pain of fine.

The Immigration and Naturalisation Service in America sent warning letters to nine million employers and dispatched 900 armed investigators to examine personnel files in thousands of work places, mainly in Los Angeles, Chicago and New York where half of the alleged illegals are living and certainly where the vast majority of Irish immigrants are living. Although the law states that nobody can be deported on the basis of a rejected application — this process can take some time and, indeed, could be used by those who are prepared to be asked eventually to leave — those found to be working illegally can be pushed out, can be deported. Interestingly, raids on work places by the Immigration and Naturalisation Service will not be on a random basis but based on inside information.

According to some surveys I have seen, most informing is done within the same ethnic group, for example, Mexicans on Mexicans, Filipinos on Filipinos and, dare I suggest it, sadly, the Irish on the Irish, especially the older Irish generation who seem to be finding it difficult to come to terms with the large influx of brash, confident, educated Irish into their traditional work and living ghettos. This type of informing on one's own springs from a fear among the settled legal community that the new illegals are poaching or threatening their jobs. Indeed, scholarly research would seem to support this view. Mr. George Borjas of the University of California found that, although an increase in the immigrant workforce has only a small effect on the wages of the native worker, resident foreigners can be badly affected. To quote one example, a 10 per cent increase in Hispanic immigration into the United States produced a 14 per cent drop in the wages of legal Hispanics working in the same locality.

Another aspect of the difficulties facing Irish illegals in the United States is that some companies rely on alien workers and do not employ legal workers. The reasons are simple and can be summed up in three words: money, money, money. These firms are saving a third of their wages bill by not paying social security contributions or overtime and by not paying withholding taxes or, as we know it in this country, PAYE. Indeed, I have been informed that this type of company, sometimes owned, sadly, by fellow Irishmen and women, withhold all Government taxes, allowing their unfortunate exploited workforce to delude themselves into thinking they are somehow on the road to legality. The argument goes: "If this guy is stopping my taxes and social security contribution, Uncle Sam must not mind my being here. Otherwise he would not take my money, would he?" Sadly that money is being taken, but Uncle Sam is not seeing any of it. Unfortunately this type of exploitation will not be ended by the recent laws. With over nine million employers and only 900 agents to investigate, they can certainly get away with it for a little while longer.

However, I wish to restate the Government's commitment to secure legal status for these unfortunate people and I am very pleased that that is the case. They are our people and because of lack of employment opportunities at home, or because their friends were leaving and they decided to leave with them, they are now in need of our help. In that context, while no surveys have been carried out I would be very interested to know how many of the people who are now in America and, indeed, in England and other parts, are there because they could not find work at home or because there was no hope for them at home. This country has an investment that is currently paying its dividends not in Ireland but in America, Britain, the Continent of Europe and, indeed, wherever there are young Irish immigrants. We have a moral obligation not to desert them.

My own experience of emigration — I too took the emigrant ship in my teens — is that such involuntary departure from the land of your birth, away from familiar places and the strong bonds of family that are so much part of Irish life, the manner of such a departure breeds a certain cynicism and bitterness towards those who are left behind, especially those who are leaders in society, politicians, clergy, industrialists. It is past time that we in this House said to our separated brethern scattered in the four corners of the world that we are sorry we have let them down, that we could not find work for them, that they had to go if they had to go. Sorrow is not enough. We need all young people back, the flowering talent of our nation, and towards that end the economic programme embarked on by Fianna Fáil, which has had the tacit support of all sides of the political divide in recent weeks, will perhaps result in a return of at least some of our wild geese.

In this new Ireland of rising employment and general economic wellbeing the question is: will they want to return? Only if we as a nation, and through the nation's representatives in this House, come to their aid especially in America. Fianna Fáil promised in their election manifesto and subsequent to taking Government that they will use every diplomatic and political means available to us — that is, to the Government — to secure legal status for all these young people. We wish to mobilise Irish American opinion through all the relevant organisations to bring the maximum political pressure to bear on Congress and the White House. Towards this end I welcome the setting up of an umbrella group representative of Irish immigrant organisations in New York recently and on a personal level I pledge tham all my help.

This question of illegal status can only be changed by political action and it can be changed. The American system of Government is open to lobbying, and effective lobbying. It is only through such lobbying that change will come. I applaud the efforts of Congressman Brian Donnelly, who did so much to alleviate the problems of many Irish people earlier this year with the introduction of what have become known as the Donnelly visas. While I felt a certain sadness at the sight of so many of our people in a sense degrading themselves and trying so many desperately different ways to obtain a visa in order to leave Ireland, I am not so naive as to ignore the reality that for so many emigration has been the only option.

Congressman Donnelly is now attempting a further onslaught on the complex US immigration laws. Last month in the United States House of Representatives Congressman Donnelly introduced a Bill to amend the Immigration and Nationality Act, 1965, by providing for a seventh preference category for the admission of natives of countries adversely affected by the enactment of the immigration laws in 1965. Indeed, it is in 1965 that much of what has been happening in recent months first started. At that time, for reasons that I have not yet been able to establish, there was no lobbying of the American Government when the immigration laws first excluded Ireland which, up to that time, had received preference.

In seeking the creation of this seventh preference category Congressman Donnelly's amendment, if passed, would result in an extra 27,000 visas per year. He states that Ireland would receive an extra 5,000 visas per year over and above those granted under the first six preferences. It is a small step in the right direction and one that all Irish American political lobbying groups should get behind. It strikes me as astonishing that a country with over 40 million claiming Irish origins, where several Presidents, including the present one, have Irish origins, a country that was built by the sweat and toil of so many Irish people has enshrined in its laws an exclusion of Irish immigrants.

The extra 27,000 visas sought by Congressman Donnelly is 10 per cent of the total number of non-preference visas available to 36 European and other countries. Compare that figure — here I am talking to the American Government, in a sense, rather than to our own — with the estimated three million illegal immigrants currently in the United States and still coming in at the rate of 200,000 per year on the most conservative estimates. Most of these unfortunate people are unskilled, semi-literate and undereducated and, in most cases, eventually end up on welfare, a burden on the US Government. Compare that with the credentials of our young citizens and one wonders at the shortsightedness of the Administration. Perhaps we should be pleased.

I stated earlier that political lobbying would ease the position for our people. Already there are reports that political pressure from the El Salvador Government may result in an exemption for them — an exemption clause is being written into the new anti-illegal immigrant laws, the reason being that they have got more clout perhaps on Capitol Hill than the Irish have.

I thought long and hard before I considered putting this motion initially before our party and then before this House. As I stated at the outset, even the word "emigration" is very emotive. As someone who has left this country and lived outside of it for several years, perhaps I have a certain empathy with our separated brethren. That is not to say that, in framing this motion and in debating it, I am in any way attempting to encourage emigration, far from it. As I stated in the course of my contribution and as I wish to emphasise again, I believe we have a moral obligation to our people abroad. Some leave voluntarily; there are others who leave involuntarily. Some leave because of peer group pressure, because their friends are leaving, particularly in rural parts of Ireland, and they wish to go abroad. Young people have a sense of adventure. I left, not involuntarily. I left voluntarily, and I know many of my contemporaries did. I came back, as indeed many of my contemporaries have done, but I believe that in putting this motion before the House we are signalling to our people in America, to the people who ultimately, we hope, will return here, that we have not forgotten them and that in their hour of need we have been prepared to stand four square with them and to help them to alleviate a problem which has now, as I said earlier, reached acute proportions.

I second the motion. I am delighted to get the opportunity to speak briefly on the motion. I agree with the sentiments expressed by the previous speaker. Like him I had the opportunity to leave this country and go to the United States legally some years ago. With the quota system at the time, 5,000 unskilled people were legally entitled to get visas to work in the United States. The problem has gone from bad to worse, because 5,000 unskilled people can no longer get the opportunity to seek work in the United States — even 5,000 skilled people cannot get the opportunity to work in the United States. People might think that this is a very small problem, but I can assure this House that it is a huge problem and it is a very serious problem. It is one of which I have first hand experience, because after my ten years living in the United States and having returned home my eldest daughter is now living in the United States with the other 100,000 illegal immigrants. I visited the United States last February and I had the opportunity to have discussions with the United Irish Counties and with various important people in New York city like John Kerry O'Donnell, who controls the football pitch there and provides games for the Irish. I had seen attendances there diminishing from 10,000 to as low as 300 or 400 in the seventies. As Senator Mooney said, the crowds attending those games now are back up again to 8,000 and 10,000 and, instead of the seven or eight teams he was speaking about in San Francisco, there are up to 50 or 60 football teams in New York city. Yet in some parts of Kerry and the west of Ireland there are no teams at all.

I also had a series of discussions with Monsignor Barry and I was delighted to hear this week that the clergy in New York city are dealing with the medical aspect of these young people who have no insurance whatsoever, who have no medical attention whatsoever, who are walking in a wilderness. At least they have now made a commitment that, if any of these young Irish illegal immigrants in the New York city area, where most of the illegal immigrants are based, become ill, they will provide medical attention for them until something is done to legalise these young people.

The problem is vast. As a public representative, I have had numerous people coming to me, parents of young people going to the United States looking for visas and looking for work. They think it is like going to Dublin or to London, where you have some type of institutions to safeguard these people. That is not the situation in a large city like New York. If a youngster gets off a plane a taxi driver may put him in a taxi cab and he may never again be seen. When I returned from my last visit to the United States I pleaded with the Government, that was the last Government, to set up some type of information service at the major airports in the United States to try at least to get some type of temporary accommodation for these young people, because they think they can walk into a B & B in a very large city. We have an organisation there that could held in the interim, that is, Bord Fáilte. There are sufficient administrative staff in New York city and in the United States at the moment from the various Departments and somebody could at least be at the airports to meet young people and advise them of their rights and where they could go for perhaps a short term. Some type of accommodation should be made available for young people until they get straightened out.

I was also glad to hear this week that the 1 July deadline has now been extended to 1 October to try to do something about these people. It is giving us an extra few months to see if something can be done. I know many of these young people go to the United States to better themselves because we cannot provide the jobs here at home and we have to face up to reality. If we cannot provide the jobs here at home the least we can do is to try to provide some kind of work or shelter for them where 40 million of our people are living. I have been quite critical here of some of the US Senators who claim to have Irish connections such as "Tip" O'Neill and Kennedy and so on. They are very Irish when it comes to election time when they want to attract the votes of 40 million Irish people living in the States; but when our young people, our emigrants, are today looking for some kind of recognition in order to be made legal, they are burying their heads in the sand. I would like to congratulate the one Senator who did something for those people. I know there are young people in New York city and other cities in the United States marrying people they never met in their lives to try to stay in the United States. They are marrying people of all creeds, in registry offices and so on at the cost of $1,000 or $2,000. They put the $1,000 in their hand, give them a kiss on the cheek and they are gone. They can then stay legally in the US, but I think that is very degrading for these people.

One would have to welcome the extension of the 1 July deadline to 1 October for the employers who take on these illegal immigrants. There are many employers in the United States whom I know personally who are more than willing to give work to these people and who are more than willing to advise them where they can get work and where they can get good jobs. The jobs are there for them in the financial market and in Wall Street where I worked for a number of years. I know it is eagerly looking for young, articulate Irish immigrants who could be legalised in the United States and they are prevented from hiring these people for vast sums of money. Vast sums of money, in the region of £25,000 and £30,000 per year, are offered. If something could be done to legalise those young people, I am quite sure the experience that they would gain over the years would be of benefit to this country in the future and more than likely help to stop the rot of emigration.

I have met personally and I know the American Ambassador to Ireland, Margaret Heckler, quite well and I have discussed this with her on numerous occasions. I know she is trying to do her best from her end of it. It is just not good enough and I do not think enough pressure is being put on to legalise our own young people. Even though we have got a breathing space, the situation will burst at the seams in October. These young people will be out on the streets because the employers will be scared stiff to take on what they know is an illegal immigrant. Up to now they worked with social security numbers and phony social security cards but from 1 October photographs of these young people will have to be printed one every social security card which means that the number will have to match the face; they will have to be identified in that way. That will change the whole trend which is in operation at the moment because the young people will then be working in a black economy and all sort of things can happen in a situation like that. The scare is on at the moment and I have it at first hand that there are people working for half the wages they would be entitled to if they were legal.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

I think there is a division in the other House. You may continue if you so wish. The Minister has to leave the House for a few minutes.

I will finish at that but I am appealing to the Government to take up the matter immediately with the powers that be so that something may be done to legalise these people.

I think I will start because the Minister's absence will not make a lot of difference to my speech. I agree with the points which have been raised so far. I welcome the fact that this motion is before us tonight and thank those people who have placed it on the Order Paper for us. It comes at a very appropriate time, both in the calendar year and also in the political timetable. As we know, at this moment thousands of young Irish people are considering emigration as an option. Many of those who are presently completing their leaving certificate or even more sadly completing their intermediate certificate, see no option for them but emigration. They are just waiting for the exams to finish and then they will go on their merry way. There has been quite an amount of talk over the past couple of years about this problem in the political arena and many of the people who were extremely vocal about it are now in Government and in a position to do something about it. I am sure we all hope they will act appropriately.

The problem of emigration is nothing new to the Irish people. Down through the years the Irish race with their love of travel and adventure spread throughout the world, sometimes as missionaries, in odd cases as revolutionaries, but frequently in search of work, as so many are today. Since the great famine, up to and during the Civil War and right up to the fifties, with a slight drop off during the sixties, and again today this search for work has continued unabated. Those in search of employment made up the greatest proportion of emigrants. The result of so many people leaving our country down through the years can be seen in almost any country in which one travels today in the high proportion of Irish immigrants. In particular this it true of the US which we are discussing here tonight. No country knows more about or has benefited more from Irish emigration than the US.

The positive effect of Irish emigration in the United States is not something which can be felt every St. Patrick's Day when one sees thousands of people marching; it is not just measured in the dominance of Irish political figures in United States politics down through the years; the place where it has probably made its major impact is in the business life of the United States where many of the Irish people who travelled abroad in search of a fortune have found it. Some of them have set up in big business, or industry and their adopted country has benefited very much from that.

It is no wonder, as a result of all that, that so many today still consider emigration to the United States as an option. The lure of the dollar, the fact that far away hills always seem greener and also the fact that almost every person in this country has relations abroad, make it a very easy, perhaps even a too easy option for those who have no work here and find it relatively easy nowadays to travel to the United States. Almost invariably they have somebody to meet them and they think everything will be fine once they get there. That does not work automatically and many of them end up in dreadful difficulty. I am unfortunate enough to live in an age when once again emigration has risen dramatically and is seen as a solution to much of the unemployment which exists today.

It is not only to the United States that they go. I was in London recently on a Mallow-London reunion trip and I met more of my former schoolmates in London that I would have met in Mallow any day of the week. That helps to concentrate the mind on the fact that emigration has become such a problem and that we will have to do something about it. Taking into account the record of Irish people's loyalty, commitment and service to the United States down the years, I do not think there is anything very inappropriate in asking the United States authorities to do something for people we feel have been discriminated against — perhaps the US Government would look at it differently.

These people did not enter the United States to cause any trouble or difficulties; they entered it to seek a livelihood which they could not find at home. In most cases they found work and, while they are not working legally, they have contributed their fair share to the United States economy, particularly in the construction line.

The reputation of Irish workers abroad is often higher than that of Irish workers at home. Many of these immigrants have very little difficulty in finding work, particularly in the more manual or construction areas.

It must be said that the illegal position of these workers did not worry their employers very much because many employers saw a chance to make the maximum gain out of minimum wage levels and with a minimum of red tape. Whether we like it or not, the facts prove that many people who found work illegally were encouraged by unscrupulous employers to bring along others who would work in similar conditions. The employers saw a certain advantage there. They had an easy-fire-and-easy-hire option and took advantage of people who were desperate for work. The employers benefited from this type of immigration and only wished it would continue.

This legislation is designed to put an end to all that. I do not think it will. Here in Ireland, perhaps on a far smaller scale, people find very little difficulty in working in the black economy. Admittedly US resources will be used at a much greater level to try to stop this happening there. I do not think they will be totally successful because, once an advantage exists for employers in many of the big building projects to use illegal immigrants, they will be very likely to do so.

When people who go to the United States and find work find themselves with very high wages and perhaps two or three jobs and few ways of spending the money, the wealth that comes to them suddenly makes them think the land of the free is the God-sent answer to all their problems. We must worry, not about what is happening when things are going well but about what happens when things go wrong. Many people can be involved in industrial accidents and they are left with absolutely nothing. A worker may have a job illegally for a year or two and suddenly one morning he or she is fired with no entitlements, no social welfare, nowhere to go, nothing to do. Such people must be our major concern here tonight. They are unable to apply for any State assistance or State services whatsoever.

Many of these people are well qualified for positions in Ireland, perhaps in teaching or nursing. They go to the United States; they over stay their welcome — if you wish to call it that. At present I am told there are up 5,000 teaching vacancies in New York and many of these Irish illegal immigrants would be more than qualified to fill the vacancies but, unfortunately, they cannot even apply for them because of their illegal status. It is the same in the health care area. Vacancies exist for which many of the people at present in the United States could apply and with the experience of the employers with other Irish workers they would probably get the jobs but, unfortunately, because of their illegal status they can do nothing. If they come back they are stuck: they cannot even apply for the jobs from Ireland.

One question we must ask ourselves is why any United States Government, whether now or in the years ahead, should concern themselves too much about Irish people abroad and why they should try to solve some of our problems. The dedication shown by Irish people to the American system, the US State down through the years in times of peace and also perhaps in times of war, and the support which the Irish people as a whole have given to the American way of life, are not in themselves reason enough for the American Government today to say: "Ireland has a special case; we will have to do something for them." Ninety-five per cent of those we are discussing are at present working in jobs in the United States. They are making their own contribution to the economy there. If a loophole is created to allow them at long last to become legal immigrants we are not asking very much. We are not asking for another job to be created for them and we are not taking a job from somebody else. All we are seeking is to make their position legal and at least allow them to continue their work on behalf of the American economy in a legal way and let them know that if things go wrong for them there will be some safety net.

This motion in itself is extremely important but the most important aspect of it perhaps is why all these people had to emigrate. As I said earlier, this is nothing new. It has been there since the foundation of the State and for years and years before that. The problem has become so grave over the past three or four years that it will have to be given special consideration. You hear about how emigration was solved in the glorious sixties but the opportunity to solve it was there and the industrial revolution had not taken place in Ireland. Once that industrial revolution started, for five or six years you were bound to have an automatic spin-off which would create jobs in numbers not known before and would certainly allow people the option of staying at home. Regardless of what Government action is taken now, we cannot hope to create jobs at the same speed or level as we did then. Obviously, we must begin to look for other solutions.

Education is something we must consider. It is a pity that people who have been educated in this State at enormous cost to the taxpayer find they have no alternative but to leave our shores. It is far better that any emigrant should be well educated and prepared to get on in life rather them he just educated at the lowest possible level and be almost doomed to failure before he goes. At present expenditure on education in Ireland is extremely high by European standards and the standard of education, it must be noted, is very high. It is no wonder that the United States authorities are so amenable to taking on Irish graduates when they wish to work in the United States. We all know of people here who are so well qualified that they do not even have to apply for work; the work comes running at them and in many cases it comes from abroad; in many cases it comes from the United States. In most cases people who go abroad stay for so many years and they improve their qualifications, increase their knowledge of life and come back and make a worthwhile contribution to the Irish economy. If we did not reduce the numbers in education at third level in particular but increase them and reduce the unit costs of every person educated in this country then those who have to go abroad at least would be better fitted for employment than many of those who are abroad now and would return some time in the future and our whole economy would benefit.

Obviously a motion like this discussed in the Irish Seanad tonight will not create shock waves in the United States Congress but we must take advantage of a particularly appropriate time — the United States Presidential election process which is only beginning now and will be going on for quite a while. We must use the good offices of everybody here and everybody at Government level to lobby all the Irish political interests. They are more than willing to listen now when they see votes on offer. It is only a small number of people we are asking about and if we approach the matter in the right way — even the political sense is not always the right sense — and in whatever way will work, we will be doing a good deed for our emigrants. We must show solidarity with them at this trying time for them and I hope this motion tonight will begin that process.

An Leas-Cathaoirleach

Thank you, Senator. I now call Senator McKenna.

I have been waiting for some time. Surely it is the turn of the Independents to speak at this point.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

No, it crosses the House each time and it will come back to you after Senator McKenna. I call Senator McKenna.

Ar dtús, a Leas-Chathaoirligh, ba mhaith liomsa fáilte a chur roimh an Aire Stáit go dtí an Teach seo agus comhgháirdeas a dhéanamh leis as ucht a thofa don phost seo. Ta súil agam go ndéanfaidh se togha obair san phost.

Unlike Senator Mooney and Senator Kiely I did not have the occasion to emigrate. I was lucky enough not to have to emigrate but members of my family and, indeed, relations and friends from all areas had to take the plane or the emigrant ship. I am very glad to have the opportunity to speak on this motion this evening. I doubt that there is anybody in this House or outside of it who has not some association in one way or another with emigrants from Ireland living throughout the world. We are dealing in particular here this evening with emigrants to the United States. It is extremely important, as Senator Mooney said, that while acknowledging the efforts being made by the Government in relation to the immigration laws in the United States, we should show our support for our fellow citizens who are in the unfortunate position that they have to seek employment in the US. Could I correct an impression that may be given in relation to teams mentioned in the various parts of the United States? I got the impression that it was only football teams that were increasing in the United States. In actual fact there are many hurling teams there also. I would like to point out that emigration is taking place from hurling counties as well as from footballing counties.

The difficulty at the moment in relation to the emigration laws in the United States arose from the Landmark Emigration Reform and Control Act of 1986. This Bill was passed after many years of deliberation in Congress and intense lobbying from emigration experts, employer interests and advocates for aliens who are anticipating an amnesty. The outcome of that massive document is that there is a tiny provision allowing for an additional 10,000 non-preference visas. That document subsumed the original Bill, as was mentioned by Senator Mooney in relation to Congressman Donnelly. The provision is for 5,000 a year for the years 1987 and 1988, that is, for the 36 countries. Very little provision is made for those individuals who, through no fault of their own, are unable to claim one of the narrowly defined existing preference categories.

The introduction of the Bill in the United States caused consternation in this country, as, indeed, it did in many other countries. The NP5 programme, as it is now called, resulted in thousands of inquiries from this country and, I understand, 100,000 written requests for one of the 10,000 non-preference visas to be granted during the years 1987 and 1988. The method of selection for the non-preference visas is a mere lottery. In order to apply for one of the visas a person had to fulfil the following requirements: (a) he had to apply through the post; and (b) only mail received between January 21 and January 27 1987 was processed. Mail received before or after those dates was not considered. Envelopes received beginning 21 January were registered in strict chronological order on a first-come-first-served basis. One, I presume, would have a better chance of winning the famous lottery that Gay Byrne has on the "Late Late Show" every so often than being successful in getting an application for one of those visas.

It is very unsatisfactory. I acknowledge that the Government are deeply concerned about the position of illegal Irish immigrants and the fact that these people have absolutely no standing and are open to all sorts of abuses. I readily accept the concern of the Taoiseach and the Minister for Foreign Affairs to improve the position of those people who now find themselves in this sad situation. I ask the Minister to use all contacts in the US Administration and Congress who have expressed their willingness to help. The illegal immigrants have no rights under US law and it is extremely important that they get legal status and be entitled to some rights as soon as possible.

Earlier, Senators referred to people applying for jobs and also to graduates. There is a connection in the fact that in January and February each year, multinationals from all countries and particularly from the United States come to lobby our top graduates for jobs in the United States. They wine and dine them. It is accepted throughout the world that they are the best qualified graduates. That is why so much importance is attached to them. The sad fact is that we have quite a number of very well educated people who, through no fault of their own, are unable to gain employment in this country.

It has always struck me that if you speak to emigrants who return on holiday or visits from London or from America, no matter what their conditions are abroad, they always give a very glowing account of the conditions under which they work. They are very slow to admit they have to accept conditions they would in no way accept if they were at home. They paint this beautiful picture of far away hills being green. They give the impression to people at home that the thing to do if they cannot get a job at home is to take the ship or the plane and get to America or wherever and they will be fixed up with a job immediately. That attitude and frame of mind is open to all sorts of abuses.

Only last week in my own area at home I was looking for a certain person and I was told that he had emigrated to the United States. I found that out of a family of 13, 12 had emigrated to the United States and every one of the 12 was there illegally. It is very sad when a whole family is absolutely depleted in that way, trying to exist with an illegal status in the United States. We have a tremendous responsibility and we must give a commitment to those people that there is a voice at home trying to meet their needs and instil into the authorities in the United States the urgency of doing something about the illegal status of those people and making provision for them so that they can live there without fear. One of the things in relation to emigrants to the United States is this idea of fear. You have unscrupulous employers who take them on and get them to do absolutely menial tasks of all descriptions under the threat of being reported to the authorities if they do not accept the conditions offered, and we are talking about people who are very well educated.

It is only fair and right at this stage to compliment Congressman Brian J. Donnelly who introduced a second draft Bill dealing with the problem and which, if enacted, would increase the number of immigrant visas available to Irish citizens. It is of extreme importance that we hold out the possibility of legal immigration to people who now see their only hope as an illegal entry. The United States has always been a beacon of hope to many generations. It has prided itself on being a nation built by succeeding generations of immigrants who have constantly enriched the nation with their strong commitment to the ideas of freedom, democracy and opportunity in the new land.

I was very disappointed and angry listening to a special "Pat Kenny Programme" recently which was recorded from New York. Every participant in that programme was very forceful in condemnation of certain Irish-American politicians, Senators who not alone failed to support the original Donnelly Bill but, in fact, worked against it. The very same American politicians very conveniently use their Irish ancestry at election time and when it suits. These are people who have always been regarded as friends of Ireland and champions of the Irish cause in America.

The US has been a powerful attraction to this country and the attraction will continue in the future. We must ensure that our emigrants are treated as we would expect them to be treated. I urge the Minister and the Government to pursue this cause with all the means at their disposal.

I must begin by apologising to the Chair because I seemed to complain that I had not been acknowledged. I forgot the actual rotation and it reminds me that I had forgotten quite a lot in four years. It is like trying to ride a bicycle again.

I am speaking from this vantage point because of the unsatisfactory nature of the backbenches in this makeshift Chamber. It is not that I have experienced a Damascus like conversion to Fine Gael, you will be glad to hear.

I was worried for a minute.

I will go to the Government backbenches the next time round. Senator Mooney is to be congratulated on raising a matter of great public concern which has been echoed by other Senators, and which we all share. A negligible percentage of my own constituency is probably to be found among the illegal immigrants. They comprise in many cases our own friends and relatives. During a term I spent in Boston in 1985 I could observe for myself the way in which they congregated in that city and the way in which our consular staff looked after them as best they could in an admirable fashion.

We all share the concern of Senator Mooney but, at the same time, there are sober realities to be considered. We would delude ourselves if we thought it was simply a matter of putting pressure on the United States Government or on "Irish" Senators and Congressmen. We should not overrate our clout or our influence in this matter and we should not overrate the willingness of Americans in general, and of Irish Americans in particular, to help us.

Let me put some of this debate in context. First of all, immigration patterns into the United States are totally changing in the latter part of this century. As Senator Mooney implied, the 1965 Immigration and Nationality Act was an important turning point and since 1965 Irish immigration has fallen by 78 per cent. We must face the reality that the age of North European immigration into the United States is over. The age of English speaking immigration into the United States is over. We are in a different historical setting and we have a miserable 500 Irish visas issued annually compared to 20,000 visas issued to nations like Mexico and the Phillipines. We had what Senator Mooney admitted was an inglorious scramble for the 10,000 Donnelly visas which was a reflection on the kind of society and politics that have characterised this State since its inception.

The inscription on the Statue of Liberty, which is lately to be read again after its restoration, still applies. America, for all the faults we find with it in the field of foreign policy and in certain actions of the State Department in respect of Central America, still has a great vision. The Statue of Liberty still welcomes the "wretched refuse of your teeming shores" and the "huddled masses yearning to breathe free." But they are different wretched refugees now and different huddled masses. We have had our day. It is now the turn of the Asians and the Mexicans.

Asians account now for 46 per cent of all immigrants at the moment. Half of the State of California is Spanish speaking and the people who pour in from Asia particularly are victims of economic misery and of political terror. They are the "Irish" of the late 20th century. It is they who deserve the pity and the generosity of Americans far more than our people. We have to face these facts. They are much more in need. They are in the same measure of need as our people were in the period from 1845 to 1849. Just as we deserved American generosity and American opportunity in the 19th century, so they now deserve it.

Americans do not owe us anything in spite of what has been said here that because we made a contribution to the building of the United States somehow they owe us a living. They do not. We have had our whack out of that country. We are having our whack out of that country. Our settled and established emigrants, people of Irish extraction who have made it to the top have been rewarded by the contribution to the building of America. I draw your attention, a Chathaoirligh, to the Harvard- Irish Times debate which was reported in The Irish Times on 13 March. In that debate the Harvard team who opposed our visiting Irish Times team, won the debate by a unanimous decision of the judges for the first time in the history of these debates. One of the reasons they won the debate was not so much their ability but, as well as their ability, the convincing subject matter of what they had to say. They made the case that the United States did not owe Irish emigrants a living any longer.

Let us remember that we are Europeans of which we have been frequently reminded at public expense through newspaper advertisements and otherwise in the last several months. We are Europeans. Our place is in Europe, in the embryonic united states of Europe. There are some politicians who very honestly tell us that that is where we should be emigrating and that is where we should be preparing our young people to go. Very quickly the Americans will say to us: "You are Europeans. Go there. Exert your pressure on the West Germans and on Brussels to get a good deal for your emigrants."

The historic mission of the United States has been — and what makes it unique in world history is — its function of welcoming new contributions to the melting pot. We have made that contribution; others now have to make it. Young Americans are not particularly eager to see our young people coming and therefore competing with them for jobs. As Senator Mooney pointed out — and it is a very good point — older Irish immigrants, the settled immigrants of the previous decades, are not too happy to see our young people coming out and competing with them for jobs. That generation of the fifties particularly, people who are now in their middle to late fifties, are a very bitter generation indeed. They blame this country and they blame the system which made them emigrate and they are in no mood to co-operate with any new generation coming out to America.

Several Senators have expressed disappointment with the attitude of the big Irish-American political names and their attitude in this matter of immigration, the fact that the O'Neills and the Kennedys and so on have not pulled their weight in this matter in helping our emigrants. But this simply bears out the point I am making. It is not worth their while politically anymore, even at election times. It is extremely doubtful if there is now any real, worthwhile, ethnic, political Irish constituency, apart from one or two areas perhaps. They will beat the IRA drum from time to time. That suits them all right, but where the economy is concerned and where there are other competing constituents concerned, Asians, Mexicans and so on in the sprawling city of New York, that is where the vote lies. They are the people who are the citizens of the future and that is where the politicians' interests are as well.

We have to be realistic about another point. A number of times the figure of 40 million Americans of Irish descent was raised as if there are 40 million Americans out there who are simply impatient to help us in every way. That, of course, is a myth. Doctor Denis Clarke of Philadelphia is, perhaps, the single most distinguished authority on the history of the Irish in America, not simply alone the history of the Irish in Philadelphia. He has written several books, the latest, called Hibernia-America. He maintains — and it is not just an opinion; it is a very serious statement backed by his own research — that of this legendary 40,000,000 Americans, perhaps there are 2,000,000 Americans who in any real sense are committed to Ireland and to Irish causes, who have real cultural or family links with this country. That figure of 40,000,000 Americans is largely a myth. Of course, they surface at certain times of the year but I think we would be making a great mistake if we depended upon them to in some way put pressure on their politicians to help our young people in America.

Many Americans — and I come back to the interesting Harvard debate reported in The Irish Times of 13 March which I recommend to Senators — feel they have no responsibility to this country, but they feel they have a very profound responsibility to many other countries, countries where perhaps they have performed not very creditably and where they are anxious to make amends. They are anxious to make amends to a certain part of Asia, the Boat People, Central America and so on. They feel a political responsibility to these people.

I wish Senator Mooney's motion well. Of course, I support him and if the Minister puts the message through to the Government and the Government, in turn, put pressure on the American Government, then, of course, obviously I will welcome it and I support it, but I have my doubts that this is going to be all effective. The fact is that we have failed these young people. In 1932 when Eamon de Valera came to power he said with all the confidence of a golden age dawning: "our young people like our cattle will no longer be brought up for export." A golden phrase, a Chathaoirligh. It perished on his lips almost as soon as it was uttered. What we are talking about this evening is an indictment of the party who have been in power in this State for two thirds of our independent history, but wider still an indictment of our whole society and of our approach to social and economic policy.

Mar dhuine as an Ghaeltacht cuirim fáilte roimh an rún seo a chuir an Seanadóir Mooney os ár gcomhair. Tá na deacrachtaí céanna sa Ghaeltacht agus atá sa chuid eile den tír agus caithfidh mé a rá go bhfuil na deacrachtaí sin níos measa mar bhí ar chuid mhaith de mhuintir na Gaeltachta dul thar sáile mar ní bhfuaireamar an seans sna hamanta atá caite obair a chur ar fáil go dtí gur bunaíodh Ranna éagsúla Stáit le scór bliain anuas. Bhí ar mhuintir na Gaeltachta dul go Meiriceá agus go Sasana, níos mó go Meiriceá i dtús an chéid, mar na daoine a chuaigh go Meiriceá ag an am sin d'fhanadar ann agus níor tháinig cuid mhaith acu ar ais go dtí le fíor ghairid, daoine a d'fhan leathchéad bliain nó trí scór bliain ann. Cuid eile chuaigh siad go Sasana agus de bharr go bhfuil cumarsáid agus taisteal níos éascaí le roinnt bliain anuas, bhí siad ábalta teacht abhaile.

Tá go leor cainte déanta faoin rún seo maidir leis an cúnamh atá le fáil ó na hÉireannaigh a bhain a muintir leis an tír seo abair trí scór bliain ó shin. Deirimse nár thug an Seanadóir Ted Kennedy ná Tipp O'Neill ná a leithéidí mórán cúnaimh do na hÉireannaigh fanacht ansin, go mór mhór na daoine a chuaigh ann a sé nó a seacht de bhlianta ó shin.

Dúirt an Seanadóir Ó Murchú go mbíonn go leor de na daoine seo sásta cúnamh a thabhairt nuair a bhuailtear an druma atá ag an IRA. Chonaic mé féin é sin ag tarlú le mo dhá shúil féin nuair a thug mé cuairt ar na Stáit Aontaithe. Bhí mé ann ocht n-uaire le deich mbliana anuas, agus tá mé ag ceapadh gur is mó daoine as mo bhaile féin a chonaic mé ansin ar maidin Domhnaigh ag an Aifreann nó thíos ag an mBlarney Stone i Dorchester nó b'fhéidir sna tithe tabhairne timpeall an cheantair sin.

Rud amháin ba mhaith liom a lua, cuma céard a tharlós nó céard a dhéanfar faoin dlí nua seo atá leagtha amach ag an Uachtarán Reagan, gabhann na daoine óga anall i gcónaí agus oibríonn siad go mí-dhleathach mar is dóigh liom nach bhfuil mórán rogha acu ach a leithéid a dhéanamh mar gheall ar na hamanta crua eacnamaíochta atá againn. Tá a fhios agam in mo cheantar féin d'imigh fiú is baill go léir de chumann peile le sé bliana. Chuaigh go leor acu anall agus bhí siad ag obair go mí-dhleathach agus ní raibh ceart ar bith acu; tá a fhios agam go ndeacaigh daoine ag obair agus níor fiú is íocadh iad ag deireadh na seachtaine. Tá a fhios againn faoi dhaoine a gortaíodh agus ní raibh aon phingean acu ach ag faire ar déirce ó chairde a bhí sna Stáit Aontaithe rompu leis an ospuidéal a íoc, nó cuireadh cuid acu abhaile tar éis tréimhse gearr.

Ba mhaith liom níos mó cumarsáide a fheiceáil leis na daoine sa Ghaeltacht go mór mhór thall i Meiriceá, mar tá mé ag ceapadh an chuid is mó acu atá ann gurb í an Ghaeilge an teanga labhartha atá acu. Nuair a labhair mé anseo an chéad lá sa Seanad nó an chéad uair a labhair mé ann, d'iarr mé go mba cheart iarracht a dhéanamh go mbeadh ceangail idir an baile agus Meiriceá agus fiú Sasana. Is féidir é seo a dhéanamh trí Raidió na Gaeltachta a oscailt amach tríd an córas satailíte sa chaoi go gcloisfeadh muintir na hÉireann thall céard a bhí ag tarlú sa bhaile agus ar a laghad go mb'fhéidir go gcoinneoidís an teanga Ghaelach a bhí acu ón gcliabhán.

Rinne na hÉireannaigh go leor oibre i Meiriceá, go mór mhór ag tús an chéid. Is iad a thóg na bóithre, na monarchana agus na tithe. Rinne siad go leor oibre nach ndéanfadh an gnáth Mheiriceánach féin. Anois nílimid ag teastáil ó na Meiriceánaigh, go mór mhór ón Uachtarán atá ann faoi láthair. Deireann sé nach bhfuil na daoine óga seo ag teastáil, go mb'fhearr leo daoine ag teacht isteach as áiteacha eile, as an Ais, áit a bhfuil, b'fhéidir géarleanúint ar na daoine ann. Chuamar tríd sin ag tús an chéid seo agus tá mé ag ceapadh go bhfuil na daoine óga ag dul tríd an rud céanna i Meiriceá faoi láthair mar gheall ar go mbreathnaíonn siad nach bhfaighidh siad an ceart fanacht agus obair a dhéanamh ansin.

Bhí brabach maith ag na Meiriceánaigh orainn agus níor mhaith liomsa nach ndéanfaí agóid, agus agóid láidir, ón Seanad seo ar son na ndaoine óga as an tír, leis an Uachtarán féin, agus bhí mé thar a bheith sásta leis an agóid a rinne an Taoiseach agus an Tánaiste ag iarraidh go dtiocfaí ar réiteach ceart ar an gceist seo. Má thagann na daoine óga seo abhaile, ní fheicimse cad tá rompu.

First, I congratulate Senator Mooney in his absence on bringing this motion before the House. In present circumstances it is a very important motion and I ask the Minister to bring to bear whatever pressure the Irish Government can on major American politicians to achieve legal status for all the illegal Irish immigrants. I had the experience of being an immigrant, thankfully legal, in New York for three years. I always found it a bit hypocritical to read in the local papers that Irish politicians would put pressure on the American Government to change the illegal status of immigrants to legal status. They were only giving lip service to the problem. Politicians should make a genuine effort on our behalf to put pressure on the American Government.

I fully appreciate Senator Mooney's sentiments on the motion. We come from the same county where we see at first hand the gradual erosion of our young population. Therefore, I should like to emphasise the importance of lobbying senior Irish-American politicians, and putting forward a plausible case for the many illegal Irish immigrants now residing in the USA. I appeal to the Irish Government to make our case to the higher echelons of American politicians. some of whom are very Irish orientated when it comes to elections but who, unfortunately, forget their roots after the campaign. I have had the experience of being in America during presidential and congressional campaigns. It is amazing how Irish people become when seeking a vote. I always remember my first St. Patrick's Day in New York. I came out of a subway and saw a coloured man with an Aran sweater and a hat with "Kiss me, I'm Irish" written on it. If there is a first black President he will be of Irish extraction too.

And his name will be Murphy.

Senator Murphy made some extremely valid points. In general politicians talk about being Irish and coming from Irish backgrounds, but the Irish community have foundered in America and are not as strong an ethnic group as we were. As Senator Murphy said, it is more politically advantageous for American Governments to look towards South America, China and such countries which are in greater need at this time. Irish illegal immigrants are a very small minority if you consider the number of Mexicans and other South American people who enter America illegally.

Immigration authorities would be inclined to turn a blind eye to the Irish illegal immigrants. The unfortunate aspect is that if the young Irish people who are working — and most of them are — have an accident, health and hospital care is extremely expensive. During my time over there I saw young people become terminally ill and dependent solely on the goodness of Irish communities to rally around and get the money to pay for the expensive hospitalisation charges. This is one harrowing and sorrowful aspect of being in America illegally. I can be contradicted on this point, but I heard on a radio programme that there were on-going discussions with the diocese of New York with the Irish Government to try to create some form of fund that would help illegal Irish immigrants who were in difficulty. Seemingly they came up with suggestions but they fell on deaf ears. I am not blaming the Government. A fund would be a much more beneficial way to try to help our illegal people in America rather than the Government trying to put pressure on the American Government to grant legal status to all the illegal immigrants.

Emigration has changed. It now seems to be the in-thing to do. Many people go to America for the experience, say for one or two years, and then return home. It is not like in the fifties when people emigrated and never returned. Those immigrants have a chip on their shoulder about this country and would find it difficult to help my generation as they consider we have been raised with a golden spoon. Also they figure that when they emigrated it was a case of having to. We are all aware that we will never have full employment and, because we have such a young population, we will have to lose many of them. Senator Murphy touched on this point, maybe perhaps cynically.

The Senator has no right to make such an assumption.

I said "maybe". I withdraw the word. He said we were Europeans now. As we passed the Single European Act with a large majority we should look to Europe should emigration trends continue into the next couple of decades. It would be more beneficial to the economy of the country. We should think about educating our people towards that. If young Irish people participate in the European Community what they earn will revolve in Europe and we should be able to gain some benefit from it. Young people should be made aware of the type of work available in the European Community, rather than in America or another English speaking country.

Irish immigrants in America are inclined to take jobs young Americans would not take unless they had nothing else to do. They work as waitresses, bar tenders, and so on. I did the same type of work very successfully for three years. Americans tend to look down on this type of employment. There are opportunities in that sphere as well. We could make the point to the American Government that basically the majority of immigrants are not taking jobs from their own people. The jobs are there. People want the work done. Legal emigrants are not inclined to take these jobs if at all possible. It would be extremely beneficial, both to the economy of the United States and to the illegal immigrants, if they became legal because then they would not have to worry about such things as health care.

Debate adjourned.
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