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Seanad Éireann debate -
Thursday, 17 Dec 1987

Vol. 118 No. 2

Social Welfare (No. 2) Bill, 1987: Second Stage.

Question proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

At the outset of my speech I would like to outline briefly the main items which are provided for in this Bill. Essentially there are three main elements in the Bill, measures to counteract employer fraud and abuse; changes in contribution conditions and entitlement and trade dispute provisions.

First, the Bill will extend and improve in a significant way the powers to pursue employers who themselves are abusing the system or are colluding in social welfare abuse by their employees. We have made significant progress in tackling abuse this year and the new powers I am seeking will close loopholes in the existing legislation. Sections 2 to 7 of the Bill contain these measures.

Secondly, the Bill gives effect to measures which were announced at the time of publication of the 1988 Estimates. These mainly involve adjustments in the conditions for payments for long term disability and in the old maternity allowance scheme. They also include an improvement for disabled old age pensioners in exempting the mobility allowance from the means test. These measures are contained in sections 8 to 11 of the Bill, the second part of section 16 and in section 18.

Thirdly, the Bill amends the existing conditions for entitlement to unemployment payments during trade disputes to provide that persons who may only be marginally involved in a trade dispute will not be disqualified for unemployment payments. In future only persons who are actually participating in or are directly interested in the dispute will be disqualified for receiving unemployment benefit or assistance. The Bill improves the legislation underlying the Social Welfare Tribunal which I set up in 1981 to deal with certain cases where workers may have been, through no fault of their own, caught up in a trade dispute situation and disqualified from benefit and the employer has failed to observe the correct procedures. The proposed amendment will give the tribunal the power, which it does not have at present, to review a decision in the light of new facts or evidence, if it considers this is warranted. These provisions are included in sections 13 and 14.

The remaining sections of the Bill contain a number of provisions designed to rationalise and improve other aspects of the social welfare system.

I would like to say a few words about each of the three main aspects of the Bill. At the outset I want to say something about the very important and topical issue of social welfare fraud and abuse.

The total expenditure in the social welfare area in the current year is over £2.6 billion, the equivalent of £7 million for each day of the year. Each month, almost three million payment transactions are made. The number of persons in receipt of unemployment payments each week is in the region of 230,000, 73,000 persons receive disability benefit payments, 238,000 persons receive old age or retirement pensions and almost 100,000 receive widow's pensions.

There is a clear need for effective control measures in the social welfare area because of the massive amount of State funds that are involved. At the same time it must equally be recognised that control measures must not be at the expense of speedy processing of claims and we must avoid any question of harassment of clients. There are hundreds of thousands of claimants who are in real and genuine need of the services provided by the Department and who have a statutory entitlement to those services. A balance must be kept between providing those families with a speedy, efficient, courteous and accessible service and ensuring that the service is not open to abuse. The balance must be constantly adjusted in the light of changing needs.

The Government have decided that the intensive and active campaign against abuse of the unemployment and disability payment schemes will be maintained and increased efforts to detect abuse of other social welfare schemes will also be made. Much of the groundwork for this has already been laid through the strengthening and improvement of the investigation, control, review and audit activities across the various services of the Department including the provision of extra staff and use of sophisticated computer techniques. Further action will be taken where necessary in the light of recommendations of the consultants who are advising the Department on the most cost-effective measures necessary to eliminate abuse of the system.

I am committed to continuing this work to reduce abuse, to the greatest extent possible, and I am satisfied that this can be done without adversely affecting in any way the quality of service provided to legitimate claimants. In fact it must be said that it is to the advantage of legitimate claimants that this be done as the elimination of fraud and abuse will serve to maximise the resources available to those genuinely in need.

In this connection I was glad to be able to announce earlier this week that the alleviating payments being paid to those affected by the introduction of the new dependency arrangements in November 1986 which the Government have already extended to the end of 1987, are being further extended to the end of March next at a cost of around £5 million. The eventual phasing out of these payments will be considered in the context of the budget.

I would like at this point to give the House a brief resume of the methods I am using to combat abuse. One of the most successful of these is the Department's external control unit. This unit, which now has a complement of 19 staff, reviews claims to unemployment payments, usually by way of interviewing claimants. Because of the very close liaison between this unit and other divisions of my Department, claimants are interviewed where, in the light of specific information obtained, there is reason to believe that the person may not have a legitimate entitlement. In this way, legitimate claimants are not affected and at the same time the activities of the unit are much more productive. Of 8,329 claimants called for interview by this unit in the current year to review their entitlement to unemployment payments 1,255 ceased claiming, of which 915 did so voluntarily. The overall savings in 1987 arising from the activities of this unit are estimated at £2.7 million.

There is also a special investigation unit within my Department assigned the specific task of the investigation of allegations of concurrent working and signing. This unit has been strengthened considerably in recent years and now consists of 42 staff. Of 4,558 claims to unemployment payments investigated by the unit up to August of this year, 1,227 were disallowed. The savings in 1987 arising from the overall activities of the special investigation unit are estimated at £4 million.

Thirdly, there is the Department's internal audit unit. This unit reviews on an ongoing basis the systems of internal control in the various branches of my Department so as to ensure that they are both adequate and functioning effectively. The internal audit unit has been significantly strengthened during the past year and has carried out a number of very successful examinations in different areas of the Department during that time. Where such reviews bring to light deficiencies, remedial action is taken.

Another method of combating abuse of the system is through the use of computerised systems. Through using computers it is possible not only to process claims more quickly and efficiently but also to integrate more effectively the information which is available in different parts of the system. For example, it enables details on claims for unemployment and disability benefit to be cross checked with data on the child benefit system.

During recent years there has been a massive and rapid programme of computerisation within my Department which has given rise to significant benefits. In July this year I signed a contract for £2.6 million worth of additional computers for the Department, mainly for the employment exchanges. At this stage the preparation and calculation of all unemployment assistance claims in the Dublin area is computerised. This is a totally new development.

Work is proceeding on unemployment benefit claims. This will be completed by mid-1988. At the same time computerisation is being extended to a number of centres outside Dublin, for example Cork, where unemployment assistance payments are now going on computer. I see computerisation in the years ahead as being absolutely essential in our efforts to achieve a more efficient and cost-effective service. In particular I am anxious to bring about a much greater degree of localisation of services so that services are delivered to the people in a more effective manner. It is my intention to have a telecommunications network linking all the Department's local offices over the next four years. This ongoing programme of computerisation will also facilitate the cross checking of applicants for all schemes administered by my Department.

Computerisation has also brought about considerable benefits in the disability benefit scheme. In particular the computerisation of the medical referral system has allowed greater selectivity in the referral of claimants to medical referees. In addition to the improved efficiency achieved through the computerisation of the system, the number of medical referees has been increased from 18 to 22. Of 88,000 claimants referred to a medical referee this year, 19,000 were found to be capable of work and 3,000 ceased to claim benefit. A further 19,000 persons failed to attend for examination and except in a small number of cases where there was good reason for their failure to attend, they were liable to a nine week disqualification and a second referral.

These control measures have helped to bring about a significant reduction in the number of people claiming disability benefit this year. The numbers claiming each week have in fact gone down from almost 82,000 early in the year — February — to 72,500 in December, a drop of over 9,000 a week. There has been a saving of around £8 million on disability payments this year.

I would also like to mention the appointment of a firm of international consultants to examine the whole range of controls within the social welfare system. Further measures in the campaign against abuse of the system will be taken in the light of the final report of the consultants. The consultants have highlighted a number of policy issues which need to be addressed and have made specific recommendations relating to organisation and procedural matters. Work on a detailed plan on foot of the consultants' findings has already commenced and the services of the consultants are being availed of in this work.

Finally, in this connection one of the main weapons available in this fight against abuse is prosecution of offenders. My Department will be following a vigorous programme of pursuit of fraud cases through their prosecution. In the case of disability benefit for instance, 125 cases have already been referred to the Chief State Solicitor's Office for prosecution this year as against 37 in all of 1986. Of the 45 cases finalised in court this year, there were 12 suspended prison sentences and 17 prison sentences in total. In one case a sentence of 12 months was imposed and in the other case the sentences ranged from three to seven months.

The Bill now before the House is particularly directed at fraud and abuse on the part of employers. I am concerned to ensure that unscrupulous employers who abuse the social welfare system will be pursued through to prosecution with the same vigour as fraudulent claimants. I know that the majority of employers do not engage in such practices, but I also know that there are many who do, perhaps by facilitating fraudulent claiming of unemployment and disability benefit payment by employees, even to the extent of providing transport for employees to the local employment exchange. In other instances, employers refuse to co-operate with or they may even obstruct social welfare officers in carrying out their investigations, for example, by delaying the inspector's examination of records of employees and their social insurance contributions. My Department already have powers to take prosecutions in cases of collusion or obstruction and there are existing penalties of fines up to £1,000 and/or 12 months imprisonment on summary conviction and fines up to £3,000 and/or two years imprisonment on conviction on indictment for employers who are found guilty of these offences.

This Bill, as amended in Dáil Éireann, provides for fines up to £1,000 and/or up to 12 months imprisonment on summary conviction, and fines not exceeding £10,000 and/or up to three years imprisonment on conviction on indictment for employers found guilty of these offences.

There is also the problem of employers who withhold or delay payment of PRSI contributions. While the primary responsibility for the collection of contributions rests with the Revenue Commissioners, the inspectorate of my Department have an important role here also. The investigation branch already carry out periodic surveys of employers' records so as to ensure compliance with the PRSI provisions. In the current year to end-November underpayments by over 2,250 employers, totalling some £3.4 million have been detected and reported to the Revenue Commissioners. Recently also a joint inspection unit drawn from the Revenue and Social Welfare inspectorates was set up on a pilot basis to investigate enterprises which are known to have a high incidence of tax and social welfare fraud. The pilot scheme is being evaluated at present to see how this type of joint action can be developed next year. Furthermore, the ongoing programme of computerisation to which I have referred is of very significant benefit to the inspection branch in detecting instances of abuse and will be so to a greater extent in the future.

A number of areas have been identified, however, in which existing powers to pursue employers who abuse the system are inadequate and need to be strengthened. Sections 2 to 7, inclusive, of this Bill are designed to meet these requirements.

In many cases where an employee is found to be working and claiming benefit the employer and the employee collude to reduce substantially the period of over-claiming. For example, the working and claiming may have been going on for several years before it is detected but both parties may represent that the employment is only of recent origin. In some instances, employers take on new employees on the specific understanding that the person concerned will continue to draw unemployment payments. The employee gains or perhaps more correctly, the Exchequer loses, through the non-payment of tax and social insurance contributions while the employer benefits through payment of reduced wages and often undercuts his legitimate competitors as a result. This has to stop. Section 2 of the Bill is designed to discourage such collusion by enabling the Minister to make regulations requiring employers to notify the Department of the commencement of employment for each new employee.

As this provision is designed to counter the activities of unscrupulous employers every effort will be made in drafting the regulations to avoid placing any unnecessary burden on employers generally. For example, it is not envisaged that notification will be required in the case of employees changing employment where the employee produces the appropriate documentation provided by his previous employer. The introduction of this requirement in the case of persons who, prior to taking up employment, were in receipt of unemployment payments will be an effective weapon in the elimination of collusion between employers and employees in fraudulently claiming unemployment payments.

What I am trying to bring about is a situation where employers will satisfy themselves when they take on additional employees that those employees are not at the same time claiming social welfare benefits. Co-operation by employers is also necessary at the stage when employees claim benefits under the system. The Department regularly ask employers to confirm details of periods of employment or absence from work through illness so as to verify claims to benefit or assistance.

In the case of disability benefit claims for instance, random checks of this nature have proved to be extremely effective in the detection of abuse. For example of 14,000 inquiries sent out to employers to check on persons claiming disability benefit 1,100 cases of possible abuse were revealed and overpayments of £460,000 have been detected to date. This year we have introduced a more effective system of following up these random checks by targeting particular industries. For example, in one major recent fraud investigation where a claimant was in employment during the period in which he was claiming disability benefit, a check of other employees with the same employer established that 22 of them were also working and claiming. Following on this a check on two other employers in the same industry in the same region brought to light a further 155 cases of fraudulent claiming. A number of successful prosecutions have already been taken and further court cases arising from these investigations are pending.

Most employers co-operate with requests for information to facilitate these random checks and I wish to record my appreciation for the level of co-operation which exists. However, some employers do not co-operate and sanctions are required against those employers who consistently fail to assist in these investigations. Section 3 of the Bill provides for sanctions which can be applied in the case of employers who fail to assist in investigations of claims to insurance-based payments and section 4 provides for a similar measure in the case of claims for assistance.

Another aspect of co-operation with employers is in the area of inspection of employer records. Under existing provisions, employers may be required to furnish such information and documents as may reasonably be required by a social welfare inspector for the purpose of investigation of claims. Sometimes it happens that employers delay inspectors in their examination of the required records by claiming that they are held by accountants or solicitors, who, in turn may say that they only hold a portion of the records. Section 5 is designed to counter evasive actions of this nature by imposing an obligation on employers to produce the required records at the employer's registered address or his principal place of business.

The present legislation requires employers to keep records of various kinds in relation to their employees, in particular records of earning. There is no provision in existing legislation, however, specifying the time at which these details should be recorded. While most reputable employers make the necessary entries in their records at regular intervals, some employers fail to maintain any records at all, or perhaps do so long after the event. Where this happens, it proves impossible to determine the true position in relation to such matters as the number of persons employed, the periods of employment, whether correct deductions of social insurance have been made and whether any other aspects of the social insurance scheme are being neglected or abused by the employer or any of his employees. It also serves to prevent the detection of cases of employees who may also be concurrently signing for unemployment payments. Failure to record the prescribed particulars on time can mean that if and when the records are eventually compiled they may not reflect the true position. This can be done for a variety of reasons such as to thwart an inquiry, to lessen the employer's liability or to cloak irregularities either by the employer or his employees. Section 6 is designed to overcome these problems by providing that details of earnings and the periods to which they refer must be recorded at, or before, the time of payment of wages.

Section 7 provides for an amendment so as to empower social welfare inspectors, for unemployment benefit purposes, to enter premises where self-employed persons are, or were, engaged in their occupations. The existing provisions refer only to premises where records relating to persons in insurable employment are kept. In recent years there has been a significant move towards contracting out work which up until now was performed by the employers own employees, for instance milk deliveries and the distribution of home fuels. The powers contained in section 7 of the Bill are necessary to help counter abuses such as employees being represented as sub-contractors so as to avoid payment of social insurance provisions in respect of their employees, concurrent working and signing by sub-contractors and failure by sub-contractors to comply with the social insurance provisions in respect of their employees. This amendment will bring the unemployment benefit provisions into line with those for unemployment assistance.

I would emphasise that the additional powers which are being provided in this Bill are directed at unscrupulous employers and not at those who are running their business in an honest and legitimate way. I value the operation of the system and I would appeal to those employers to maintain this level of co-operation in the future. I want to appeal especially in this regard to those honest employers in industries and sectors in which abuse is known to be prevalent because only in this way will we together be able to root out abuse effectively.

Before moving on to discuss the next part of the Bill, I would like to refer briefly to the level of penalties which are provided for in respect of the various offences which are involved. We had in the other House a very full and worthwhile discussion of these measures and I accepted an amendment which was put forward in that House and which provided for the very substantial penalties which we now have, namely, on summary conviction a fine of £1,000 or one year's imprisonment or both and on conviction on indictment a fine of up to £10,000 or three years imprisonment or both.

There were very strong feelings expressed about the need to tackle fraud by employers and I think the level of penalties now provided for reflects the level of concern which exists on this point. I might mention that these particular penalties are higher than those which apply under the existing legislation for other offences and in this regard I will be making the necessary arrangements at the first available oppurtunity to bring these other penalties into line with those now being provided for in this Bill.

The second main purpose for the Bill is to give effect to changes in social welfare schemes which were provided for in the Estimates. Sections 8 and 9 of the Bill provide for changes in the contribution conditions for entitlement to certain insurance based benefits. Section 8 provides that entitlement to extended duration of disability benefit, that is, beyond 12 months, for all new claimants from 4 January 1988 onwards, will require 260 paid contributions. These contributions entitle the claimant to disability benefit for as long as he or she is incapable of work and is under pensionable age. This benefit can continue for some long-term claimants for as long as 40 years. Section 9 provides that entitlement to invalidity pension for new claimants after 4 January 1988 will also require 260 paid contributions. Under existing provisions, 208 paid contributions are required for both of these payments.

These measures are designed to achieve more realistic contribution conditions for entitlement to these long-term payments by requiring that claimants have a reasonable history of paid contributions. The increased contributions for extended duration of disability benefit and invalidity pension will apply to new claimants only and the Government was conscious of the need to ensure that people who are already on long-term disability benefit would not be affected. A number of changes in this area have been made in recent years and, in fact, the provisions of sections 8 and 9 of the Bill were included in the 1987 budget proposals of the previous Government.

A further change to the disability benefit scheme is contained in section 16 of the Bill which provides for the introduction of three "waiting days" from April 1988 onwards for clamants to disability benefit transferring directly from maternity allowance to disability benefit. All new claimants for disability benefit at present must serve three waiting days and this provision merely extends this requirement to cases where people transfer directly to disability benefit, having been in receipt of maternity allowance.

A number of changes are being made to the old (general) scheme of maternity allowance. There are two schemes of maternity allowance. The old maternity allowance scheme, which was introduced under the National Insurance Act, 1911, provided for a payment to insured women for a period of twelve weeks subject to certain contribution conditions being met. The second scheme, the maternity allowance scheme for women in employment was introduced by me as Minister for Social Welfare in April 1981. This scheme which provides for a period of 14 weeks payment is available to women who are on maternity leave from work under the Maternity (Protection of Employees) Act, 1981, and who are entitled to resume work with the same employer at the end of the period of maternity leave. This scheme effectively superseded the old maternity scheme for women in employment. In order to eliminate any confusion which may exist, I would emphasise that entitlements under the maternity allowance scheme for women in employment remain in full and are not affected in any way by the provisions of this Bill.

Section 10 provides that entitlement to maternity allowance under the old (general) maternity allowance scheme for new claims from 4 January 1988 will be restricted to claimants who have at least 13 paid contributions in the governing contribution year. Under existing provisions, a claimant may qualify for the allowance on the basis of only credited contributions in that year. Section 10 also provides that from January next onwards, only contributions in the governing contribution year will be taken into account in determining eligibility for the allowance as is already the case with unemployment benefit and disability benefit entitlement.

Section 11 of the Bill provides for the abolition of entitlement to pay-related benefit in the case of all new claims for the old maternity allowance scheme which commence on or after 4 April 1988. This will not affect the level of benefit payable under the new maternity allowance scheme. Under that scheme, which as I have said, is now the new scheme of maternity protection for women in employment, provides benefit at the rate of 70 per cent of earnings, and effectively guarantees full replacement of net pay, with a minimum payment set at the relatively high level of £76 per week.

The Bill also contains a technical amendment relating to the maternity allowance scheme for women in employment. Under existing provisions the maximum amount of the allowance payable is equal to 70 per cent of the claimant's weekly earnings up to the earnings limit prescribed for pay-related benefit purposes, currently £11,000 per year. Interpretation of existing provisions has been questioned however and the purpose of section 12 is to clarify the definition of "reckonable weekly earnings" applied in the calculation of the allowance. I would emphasise however that this is a technical amendment which does not affect in any way entitlements under the maternity allowance scheme for women in employment. The substantial changes in this area all relate to the old maternity allowance scheme and the fact is that the need for the old scheme has to a large extent been superseded by the introduction of the maternity allowance scheme for women in employment and I would expect that henceforth, the needs of women in this area will be met by this scheme.

Section 13 of the Bill provides for an amendment to the trade dispute provisions, under which persons who have lost employment by reason of a stoppage of work, may be disqualified for receiving unemployment payments or supplementary welfare allowance. Under existing provisions persons who do not stand to gain materially from a strike by fellow workers may be prevented from obtaining unemployment benefit or assistance and supplementary welfare allowance if they are, for example, members of the same grade or class of workers as those engaged in the dispute. Section 13 provides that persons will no longer be automatically disqualified from receiving unemployment payments or supplementary welfare allowance on such grounds. The only circumstances in which the trade disputes disqualification will apply in future is where the person concerned is participating in or directly interested in the dispute. I think this is a very worthwhile improvement in the system and I am sure that the House will welcome it.

Section 14 of the Bill provides for an amendment of the powers of the Social Welfare Tribunal which I established in 1982 as a result of a number of disputes in which a large number of workers were refused unemployment payments and where the employers had acted unreasonably. I believe the establishment of this tribunal has proved of major benefit to workers in this sort of situation. Representations have, however, been made to the effect that it can happen that, at the time the tribunal is sitting, which often occurs during the actual course of a stoppage, all the detailed facts and information surrounding the dispute may not be readily to hand. In these circumstances it is felt that the tribunal should have power to review its decision. This amendment is designed to allow the tribunal review its decision where new evidence or new facts are brought to its attention, subsequent to the date of the original decision. Under existing provisions the tribunal is only empowered to review an earlier decision where it is satisfied that a material change has occurred in the circumstances of the stoppage of work or the trade dispute which caused the stoppage of work. This amendment will bring the tribunal's powers of review generally into line with those of appeals officers.

The Bill also contains a number of other miscellaneous provisions designed to rationalise and improve aspects of the social welfare system. The provisions of section 15 arise from the introduction of the new dependency arrangements in November 1986, as part of the implementation of the EC Equality Directive, and provide for an amendment of the definition of "adult dependant", so as to preclude certain categories of person from qualifying as adult dependants. The categories involved are persons who are disqualified from receiving unemployment payments in their own right, by virtue of their involvement in a trade dispute, and participants of certain full-time AnCO non-craft training courses.

Under existing provisions, persons disqualified from receiving unemployment payments, by virtue of their involvement in a trade dispute, may still qualify as adult dependants. This situation did not effectively arise prior to the introduction of the new dependency arrangements in November 1986 as up until then women could only receive increases in respect of their husbands in very exceptional circumstances. At the same time, as women qualified as dependants of their husbands regardless of whether they were in employment, an adult dependant allowance payable in respect of a woman involved in a trade dispute would have been payable prior to the commencement of the dispute.

The amendment affecting participants of certain full-time AnCO non-craft training courses also arises as a consequence of the Equal Treatment Directive. As a general rule, persons in receipt of an income maintenance payment in their own right may not be regarded as dependants. The payment of increases in respect of participants of certain AnCO courses conflicts with this provision. As the rate of payment to participants of such courses was linked to the rate of unemployment benefit payments, it was necessary, following implementation of the Directive, to restructure payments made to participants of these courses to reflect the revised social welfare dependency arrangements. As a result of these changes, a family in which one spouse is in receipt of a social welfare payment, and the other is participating in a full-time, non-craft training course may, through a combination of social welfare and AnCO payments, receive the equivalent of two personal rates of payment, together with an adult dependant allowance, and one and a half times the child dependant allowance. The effect of this amendment will be to prevent this double payment.

The changes contained in section 17 of the Bill are also related to the EC Directive on equal treatment. The existing provisions provide that, on the death of a person who is in receipt of benefit, the spouse is entitled to payment of that benefit for a period of six weeks after death. While after death payments are regarded as a survivor's benefit and are therefore technically outside of the scope of the EC Directive on Equal Treatment, these provisions are nonetheless affected by the new dependency arrangements introduced in November 1986. The purpose of section 17 is to apply the principle of equal treatment between men and women to the after death provisions, by providing that such payments will in future be made where at the date of death the deceased was in receipt of an increase in respect of an adult dependant, whether that dependant was a man or a woman.

Finally the Bill makes provision for two minor but significant improvements in the social welfare code, one affecting claims to disability benefit and the other relating to old age pensioners. Under existing provisions, a claimant is not entitled to disability benefit in respect of any period of paid holiday leave. This causes a break in the claim where an insured person is on sick leave immediately before a period of paid holiday leave and, as a consequence, the claimant is obliged to serve a further three waiting days at the end of the holiday period. Section 16 (1) (a) is designed to relieve claimants of this obligation.

Section 18 provides that income received by way of mobility allowance payable under the Health Act, 1970, will be disregarded in the assessment of means for the non-contributory old age pension. This allowance which was introduced in 1979 under the Health Act, 1970, applies to severely handicapped persons over age 16 who are unable to walk and who would benefit from occasional trips away from home. An earnings disregard of £6 per week is applied in the assessment of means for non-contributory pension.

The amount of the mobility allowance when it was first introduced was £150 per year and where there were no other means the allowance did not affect the rate of pension because of the £6 per week disregard. This is no longer the case however as the allowance has since been increased to £320 per year. This amendment provides that money received by way of the allowance will no longer be taken into account in the assessment for old age pension. Income from other allowances payable under the Health Acts, such as the disabled persons maintenance allowance and the infectious diseases maintenance allowance, is already disregarded.

The changes I am putting forward in this Bill are designed to improve significantly in a number of respects the operation of the present social welfare system and the control mechanisms which operate. It is extremely important that in a system as vast as this social welfare system which is responsible for the expenditure of vast amounts of taxpayers' money, the system of control should be adequate and be constantly reviewed and amended where necessary.

The proposals in this Bill will bring about needed improvements in the present system and will help to achieve a more effective use of our resources. I can assure the House that I will be taking whatever measures are necessary to develop the efficiency and effectiveness of the delivery of existing services while at the same time ensuring that the necessary systems of control are present within the system. It is in this spirit that I would ask the House to agree to the proposals in this Bill.

I am also engaged in extending social insurance to the self-employed as well as the introduction of statutory sick pay. The proposals in this Bill will bring about much needed improvements in the present system and help to achieve a more effective use of resources. It is extremely important that while further improvements to the system are being drawn up, we constantly try to improve and develop the efficiency and effectiveness of existing services.

I am concerned at the extent of fraud and abuse in unemployment and sickness payments. I intend to vigorously pursue unscrupulous employers who collude in defrauding and cheating the taxpayer, the Exchequer and their competitors. The limited resources available must be directed to those in genuine need. I look forward to the assistance and co-operation of honest employers in eliminating these abuses.

I commend the Bill to the House.

We recognise that there are problems as regards fraudulent abuse of the social welfare system. Indeed, not alone this year but over the last four or five years, the cost to the State of over £7 million per day on the social welfare system is very high. We should not suffer from any illusions and think that this Bill will bring about massive improvements. The fact is that the Bill is again directed at the people who are prepared to employ. The question of incentive and motivation to employ people is very important. There is a very strong emphasis on fraudulent employers and employees. Indeed I had long discussions with the Minister and with Deputy Gemma Hussey when she was Minister about the problem of social welfare fraud. It is important that we create an incentive and motivate the people we would like to motivate to get this country going, the people who are prepared to employ.

I had long discussions with an official in the Department of Social Welfare about these schemes and, indeed, might I say that we implemented schemes where we allowed people who were drawing dole money to work for so many hours per week. In case I might be giving the impression that we were turning a blind eye to it, the scheme was implemented in three or four areas first and then it was extended earlier this year to particular towns. It admitted that there is a need for changes but the Minister's speech places a strong emphasis on people who are bringing about a fraudulent situation. I agree that we must create situations where people would not be doing this. I know that there are areas where this is going on and I congratulate the Department and the officials involved in showing up the various such cases but let us not think that all the nettles are covered because it is anything but that. I come from an urban area and I am very conscious of people who say that they are entitled to £60 or £70 a week but because they have a wife and two children they must do something else. This does not necessarily mean that such a person has to do, or can do, a full-time job. I am also very conscious of the fact, in the employment area, of a strong emphasis on getting on top of unscrupulous employers. Is it not time that we broadened our minds and not call these people employers at all? Why should we be asking employers all the time to ensure that their books are up to date because they are employing a person and to ensure that they pay their money on time because they have to pay out so much money every week? Where is the incentive to employ? Where is the motivation to employ?

We were dealing with a person in the Cork region some time ago in relation to getting a little factory going in our region. We had discussions with this person who had a warmth for the Cork area. He was prepared to employ in the region of 60 to 66 people in a plant over a period of time. We showed him around the area, we pointed to the benefits, we showed him what we were prepared to do and what tax benefits we could give him and what land was available to him, at a very cheap price — indeed at no price at all. We also showed him what loans were available. Ten days later we spoke to him again and his answer was — this is the point I want to make: "I want to create work in the Cork region but 60 miles away, as the crow flies, in Wales, to employ a person and pay him £100 a week would cost in the region of £27 to £29 extra. If I employ the same person in the Cork region, which I want to do, and pay him £100 per week"— which is not great money but is fair money —"it will cost me in the region of £44 a week extra." Where is the incentive there? Yet the State is saying that we need to put more emphasis on ensuring that the employer is not dishonest. Is it not true that in other countries at present when a person is being taken on as an employee — I do not want to emphasise the words, "employee" or "employer", I want to talk about work and I am only interested in work that is not costing the State money — they are told that they are not being employed but that they are to be self-employed? These are countries within the EC and the Minister emphasised regulations in his speech. Why are we saying that we must do everything possible not to employ people? I speak to many employers who in no circumstances want to talk about labour or pay out money for a person they employ. Why should they? It is an imposition to ask someone who wants to employ a person to ensure that his books are up to date and that the employee's moneys are paid. Why not put more responsibility on the employee? Why not put the responsibility on the person who is being employed and going to do the work? Why should the emphasis be always put on the employer? The penalty for breach of this provision is three years imprisonment.

I am the first to say it, and I do not deny it, that I come from a very strong background of trade unionism. I am saying that I do not like the idea of not giving an incentive or a motivation to create more work. If Senator Brendan Ryan has an answer for that he should speak about it.

The magic word of redundancy is going around this country. From the State's point of view we are reaching the point where we will have fewer people at work every year. That is not a good thing. I asked the previous Minister to implement particular schemes which would mean that more people could get work, even if only on a part-time basis. It is difficult to imagine that an employer who wants to take on people on a three, four, or six hours basis is not entitled legally to say he wants to take on a person who is unemployed. The State says he can do that but if he employs a person who is on the dole he must make a new claim when he goes to the employment exchange the next morning. Where is the logic in that? You cannot employ for four hours in the evening a person who is on the dole because when he goes to the unemployment exchange the next morning his claim is broken. A person should be allowed to work 20 or 22 hours per week and he should get a certain amount of dole. For instance, a person of 30 or 35 years who is not married would get £34 a week on the dole yet a person of 81 years who could be spending less money will get something in the region of £58 a week. If £7 million a day is being spent on social welfare it should be spent fairly. Let us be prepared to change. We should be prepared to say that we know of people who have not enough money and we know of people who have too much. I know of people who are getting an invalidity pension who are much fitter than I am.

Senator Cregan should report the doctor.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

Senator Cregan does not need help with his speech.

Sometimes Senator Ryan gives the impression that he is a Minister. Why is it that for so long we could not say to a person on the dole that he could do work? Why can we not tell a person he may take work in a restaurant in the evening or take security work? That person may only get work for eight hours per week but at least it is some work. I want to put the emphasis on the word "work". I am not saying he will get a great deal of money out of it. We should not say to an employer that he may not employ a person who is on the dole if he is going to break his claim but he can employ a person who is already working. A person who finishes work at 4 o'clock and decides to do another job at 8 o'clock that night is quite entitled to do so but the person who is unemployed cannot do that. That is the point I want to make.

Employers should be encouraged to employ those out of work. This could be achieved by putting a very strong emphasis on computerisation. I was informed by the previous Minister that more moneys were going to be spent on computerisation in local employment exchanges. I welcome that, but are we using the computerised system to the best advantage? Is the Minister prepared to say that he expects to see more improvements in that area over time? How can you say that a person on unemployment assistance should not get any money because he is doing some work? How can you prove it without going to every gate, every store or every shop in the country to find out who is working or asking the employer how many they have employed? This frightens the person who wants to create the job. In another few months another inspector calls and in the end the employer says, "I will not bother my hat: I will employ someone else". Instead of encouraging an employer to employ people who have no work, we are creating a disincentive with the result that the employer looks elsewhere for staff.

I suggested to the previous Minister and officials that an employee should legally be able to tell the employer he is not drawing the dole or any State benefits. The way to do that is the very same way as the credit card system, a job card system. Why can we not computerise the system so that the person who is leaving the local employment exchange to go to work should have his job card with him? Is that not possible? A credit card system operates throughout the world where moneys can be handled that way: yet, we do not operate an adequate method of dealing with this matter.

What I am proposing is not a novel idea but has prevailed for the past 30 or 40 years in one particular area. Is it not true to say that in the docks a person can work one day and draw the dole the next day? Why cannot it prevail for an ordinary employee who wants to work in a restaurant on a Saturday and Sunday? Why can he not have a job card? Why can we not give the incentive to employers to take on a person on a Friday night and Saturday night? At least it would employ more people. We do not provide that incentive: yet millions of pounds are being spent on computerised systems. Every employee in the country should have a job card and when he is leaving that employment the job card should be sent back to the local unemployment exchange. Then you could call on an employer and ask for a person's job card? If a person leaves the local exchange with his job card and says he is going to work he takes his job card with him: that covers the employer and it covers him. That would simplify the system.

The State itself should show example by saying that any person who is employed should have a job card. Is it not possible to do that with all the money that is being spent on computerised systems? I recognise that in Irish society we do not like the idea of being numbered. I do not like the idea. It happens in other countries. I spoke on the telephone to a person who had to leave this country some time ago. He told me that the stores would much prefer you to use credit cards or a particular number rather than money.

In this country we are spending a fortune on employing people, and we are losing millions of pounds every year because of fraud. We should be able to offer employers or persons who want to create work, and employ ten instead of eight, more incentives, more motivation.

Let us broaden the debate and ask how do you do that? Why is that I cannot have Michael Murphy coming into my place on a Thursday, starting work at 7 p.m. working for two nights and getting £30 from me? He is already getting £25 or £34 at the local exchange. The employer should say to him when he is leaving on Friday night: "I will give you documentation saying that you got so much from me" and he goes back to the exchange with his job card and signs on. If you buy an item with a credit card, you get a receipt for it.

It is so simple that I do not understand why we are not simplifying matters for people to create an incentive for them to employ others. That is what I would like to do. Some schemes were broadened earlier this year. May I say I asked the previous Minister, Deputy Hussey, to create incentives? I do not know how well they are doing. I would be telling lies if I said I did. I know in the Cork area some incentives were given but the Department of Social Welfare did not sell the idea and only put it in the public press for one day and that was it. They did not tell employers they could employ people for so much time per week and what it would cost them.

We do not tell the employers that, but we tell them they owe so much PRSI and PAYE and should not forget to pay it. The Department should make sure that the employers are covering the employees for PRSI. When are we going to be more constructive and say to people who want to employ others: "You can take on a person for ten hours per week instead of 40 hours per week"?

I emphasise strongly that I want to see more people getting a share of the money that is around, but that is not happening. I know people who say: "I am earning £22,000 or £27,000." In Cork about nine months ago 60 lorry drivers were working and the company decided to eliminate 16 jobs. To eliminate 16 jobs would cost them money but they said they would be better off with 44 people. Three weeks later one of the 44 people came to me and was very annoyed with me because he was paying so much tax, PRSI and PAYE. I looked at his wage receipt and it was some wage receipt for his week's work, £350 net. That means he was earning something like £600 a week. I asked how he earned so much. He said: "I was working Saturday and Sunday and that was worth £190 to me." He got £190 for working Saturday and Sunday; yet he was making £350 for working the other five days. The company found it better to give him £190 for Saturday and Sunday rather than bringing back the 16 workers they laid off before.

Where is the logic? Would it be better to give the man who is working for five days £350, and bring back the 16 workers for the other two days? If you did that they would lose their entitlements under the social welfare schemes. When I asked the trade union official the next morning why there is not a policy with the social partners to bring back the 16 redundant workers I was told there is no agreement to do that. This is a semi-skilled job and you could not bring in an unskilled worker to do it. The State would have saved a lot of money in benefits paid to those 16 workers because they were laid off. They were getting statutory allowances and they were getting benefits. The other man was paying tax. He was cribbing and wanted me to make the argument for him.

I am a staunch trade unionist but I believe in everybody working. I do not believe in one man getting £600 while the other man goes to the exchange. There is no incentive for the employer to bring back the 16 and allow them to work on Saturday and Sunday. I want to see that but there is nothing like that in this Bill. I would like to be able to say to a young fellow of 18 or 19 years: "I can take you on tonight and tomorrow night, but I am sorry I cannot take you on for the other five nights." You cannot do that. You must only take on a person who is already working because you do not have full employment for him. Where is the logic in that? Where is the motivation in this Bill for that? Where is the incentive to an employer? We should try to simplify the system, but the Department make it more awkward.

There is a section in the Bill to make sure employers are up to date with payments by a certain time. If not, they will be fined or imprisoned. We will have fewer people employed. This is not an easy Bill. The greatest problem in this State at this time is unemployment. My children and everybody's children have no jobs. There is no incentive to create employment. There is even a queue in the public sector for redundancy. The State admit it is a big problem to employ people. Even the social partners are saying there should be an agreement that there will be redundancies. The State says there is no incentive to employ people but this Bill does not broaden the net. Instead it enables employers to do less. This Bill says: "You will get three years in prison because you did not do the right thing". There will be fewer people working. That is my concern and I am sincere about it.

Every day of the week I walk around my city and I see big problems. I see the fifties back around us. I see people hunting for rabbits, as they were doing in the early fifties. I never thought I would see it again. It is on in a big way. We are doing nothing to solve it. The Department want to spend less and to save £36 million this year. Congratulations to the Minister.

The Department will have to make sure that the poor will get something but I did not see it being distributed. Are we to tell people on £34 a week that they will get the same as the old woman of 81 who is sitting in a chair, drinking a cup of tea, with all respect to her? I do not wish to knock her. When will the system change so that the less well off in our society will get the same as the person next door?

I know a family of five, a husband, wife and three children. He is on £72 a week and around the corner his mother and father are on £104 a week. He has three children to provide for. What is the social welfare system doing about that? If we want to spend £7 million, let us discuss how we could broaden the system? Where are the changes in the Bill? There are no changes, only tightening. The Department are very concerned about fraud by employers. They are right but we must be more concerned to ensure that we get more people working. We may save a few million pounds by discovering fraud by some employers. The name of the game at the end of the day is to make sure that we create incentives for employment. This is not being done. The opposite is being done. This is ridiculous.

I am not denying for a moment there are a lot of people drawing "the exchange" as we call it in Cork — they call it the dole in other areas — and working at the same time. I cannot blame them. I know fine honest gentlemen, who three or four years ago worked in Dunlops and Fords, and who were prepared to say: "I was doing well but now I am on £68 a week and I must get a few bob to keep Mary going". They will do it, if we do not bring about a situation where we say to them: "I recognise that you are not going to get £100 a week from an employer but you might get £40 so it would be better for the State to give you £50 and you would end up getting £90 rather than £72". Is that not logical?

We are not saying that to the employer. Employers are taking on people in the black economy, which is massive. The employer says: "I can give Michael £80 a week but I cannot give him £120". That is why he is in the black economy. If he employs a man at £100 per week it will cost him another £44 plus insurance plus, if he lays the worker off, three or four years' redundancy money. The employer is better off not employing people legally, taking their chances in the black economy, because the employee will get another £60 or £70 a week from the local exchange anyway. If there is a person getting £80 a week from a local employer but he needs £120 to live on, what is wrong with the State giving him the extra £40? Is it not better than giving him £80? What is wrong with a State subsidy?

The social employment scheme was implemented by the Coalition, and at that time it was the laughing stock of the Dáil and of this House, in particular among the Opposition of the day. I do not see anything wrong with giving them £65 or £70 a week and on the week that they are not working, they work where they like. How can you say that to one person and not to another person? Under the social employment schemes it is legal. They are employed by the local council for one week and get £70 a week; they can do what they like the next week and make what they like. They can make £400 the next week and nobody says anything to them under the social employment scheme. But that does not apply to the person who has no job at all. They should all be treated the same.

At present we say to the person who is on £34 a week and paying for a little bedsitter costing £15 per week that he must live on the rest — £19 a week. We are spending £7 million a day on social welfare and there are some people who need it and cannot get it while others who should not be getting benefit are getting it. Young people of 20 or 22 years of age who are walking around our streets should have a job. It might only be three hours, three days a week, but at least he can tell his girlfriend and friends he is working. Have we any idea what it is like for young people not to be working? I was in Cork airport three weeks ago on Saturday and 24 families were leaving for Australia. One can imagine what it is like around the country.

When are we going to create the incentive for such people to stay here? We educate them excellently; they are better educated than I will ever be. How are we treating them? The Bill before us is totally negative. It provides for three years imprisonment for employers who defraud the State. I am not saying that we should not get on top of these people but we must motivate employers to provide jobs. To take on two more people at £100 a week would cost an employer £88 a week at least in PRSI and PAYE. If they are employed for 12 months the employer cannot make them redundant because they are not supposed to be sacked, even if they steal something. I am not saying that employees should not be protected but they have a responsibility as well.

Everybody has a responsibility. First and foremost the Government have a responsibilty to create opportunities. They are not doing that. They frighten the living daylights out of a person who wants to create a job. I am very much aware of the moneys that have been saved, I congratulate the Minister but more can be done. At the same time we must not hound the employer who does not want people walking in every three months asking if the books are up to date. The books should be simplified. They have brought about a situation in Great Britian whereby employers are not prepared to say who they employ any more. The Minister and his officials should be aware of it, and if they are not they should check it out. No more than 60 miles from here there are cases where an employer is not an employer any more, because it does not pay. They have to pay much less than we pay. I have emphasised that already. The same person who wanted to create 66 jobs in our city, was able to say to me that energy costs were 27 per cent lower 60 miles away from here. Turning on a one horse power motor would cost 4p an hour less.

How can I create jobs in my city? How can we create jobs in our country? The Government are saying nothing constructive to any employer. I want to make it easier for everybody. The Government are readily admitting that computerisation of the system is very important. The computer is not being used to its full capacity if it is not possible to say to everybody who comes to the local employment exchange, "Next Monday morning there are two or three days work available and take the card with you." That should come out of the computer and when the person goes in the next day that card goes through the computer again and it is established that they are on benefit. If the employer who takes him on does not have the card at his place, there should be a check to see how many employees he has. If one has seven employees there should be seven cards. That means that that employee cannot be drawing money elsewhere. If one has eight employees one should suffer the consequences. I make no apologies for that. We must show the example but we are not doing it.

That is why I will be questioning every section of the Bill. I am very conscious of the fact that our moneys are being saved, and more can be saved. I know people who are drawing invalidity pensions, in particular, getting pensions every week and when the equality Act was implemented their money was increased from £44 to £52 because they had two children under the appropriate age and yet I had a person up the road who had to pay £15 a week to stay in a "dive" and he was getting £34 on which to live. That is the change I want to see. I want to be able to say to the woman who is able to go every week and buy different clothes, "congratulations" because she is within the system. As regards the other person who cannot draw his breath because he does not have enough, when will we change that? Those are the changes I want to see. I want to, see the £7 million a day brought down to £6 million. If three, four or five ordinary people were given £1 million a day to look after the less well off in their city or area, it would be done for less. Because of the way the system works people can continue to draw social welfare payments. There is no problem people are told they can continue to draw because they are not well. A woman may be able to have a second holiday out of the invalidity pension because she is not well. Her husband could be on £400 or £500 a week and he gets free travel because his wife is not well. Where is the logic in that? I know a person in my city who is on invalidity pension. Her husband is a State employee earning £21,000 a year and he travels to Dublin free. If the Minister says that that is logical or fair to the man who is in receipt of £34 a week, I am not prepared to stand here and take it.

I welcome this Bill. Social welfare is so important to the wellbeing of so many people that updating of legislation is always ongoing and necessary. Because so much is spent on social welfare in any one year — £2.6 billion in the current year — there is an obvious need to effect savings and efficiency. This year's savings of £36 million through measures to eliminate fraud and abuse and more effective use of resources must be welcomed. The deserving applicants who are entitled to, and solely dependent on, their benefits do not necessarily have to be affected by savings in this area. The Minister has proved this in the savings that have now been made by way of the detection of fraud and abuse.

I would welcome additional improvements in the social welfare area. First, there is a need for improvements in buildings where people gather to collect their social welfare. I know of venues in Meath, and indeed throughout Ireland, where people have to line up on footpaths, often in the rain, to collect their entitlement. Secondly, social welfare is an area very appropriate for decentralisation and the advancement in computerisation in the Department, as referred to by the Minister, should allow for further decentralisation and the benefits that accrue from this.

The Bill before us today deals with measures to combat fraud. Recent events at Arigna suggest that fraud is taking place on a large scale and in a well organised manner. I do not object to an unfortunate social welfare recipient digging a neighbour's garden or doing some other trivial work carried out as a past time but organised fraud must be stamped out. The millions of pounds lost to the State in this way each year could be put to the benefit of deserving social welfare applicants. In the area of the elimination of fraud I feel that the additional powers to take prosecution against employers will be helpful.

I welcome here the changes that were made in the Dáil vis-a-vis the penalties. There is no doubt in my mind that fraud is taking place and I congratulate the Minister on taking the appropriate initiative to confront this practice. Again, from my experience as a public representative, I have come to the conclusion that the abuse in unemployment benefit and unemployment assistance is in the area of short term casual employment, such as a farmer who may want somebody to work at hay during the summer months or a shopkeeper who may wish to employ somebody at Christmas time or during busy periods. Perhaps this is something that the Minister can examine in the future, that is, how to ensure that employers requiring short term or casual labour have access to establishing who the local unemployed are and are able to employ them with the minimum of paperwork for short periods. I feel that improvements in this area might be of assistance in the matter raised by Senator Cregan, the extra paperwork and difficulties involved for employers. I would say further that employers employing large numbers of employees should keep their books in order for the efficiency of their own business and for the sake of their employees.

There is also the problem of a person starting off with the advantage of an extra £100 on a Monday morning and the advantages he has in pricing jobs over and above his counterpart who is paying tax and not drawing social welfare. The elimination of this scandalous practice of working and drawing unemployment could lead to meaningful permanent employment for many people. Every effort should be made to eliminate this activity. Sections 2 to 7 of this Bill are a major step forward in this area.

I note that employers may be required to produce all documents, information and records as an inspector of the Department may require. Again, this is a real step forward in further eliminating fraud. It is of no disadvantage to the employer who keeps his books up to date and it has a distinct advantage for employees in the benefits they are entitled to from having tax and PRSI paid up to date.

Sections 8 and 9 provide for an increase in the qualifying requirement for benefit from four years to five years in the number of paid contributions required for disability benefit. This section applies to people who are sick for over a year. It should create a longer and thus a greater attachment to the workforce for qualifying persons for long term benefits and a greater encouragement to long term employment.

Section 10 establishes a recent attachment to the workforce for persons applying for maternity benefit. I always felt that this should have been the case as maternity allowance was always understood to be in respect of a break in a person's work performance. I welcome a tidying up of the arrangement in the Bill. Section 14 is to be welcomed as an improvement in access to having cases reviewed and resolved.

I would like to draw attention also to section 18 of the Bill where it will affect only a particular section of the population. It will be warmly welcomed by those who are affected as the present position means that the value of mobility allowance, which is paid to persons who are permanently incapacitated, was greatly decreased when assessed for non-contributory old age pension. Now, thanks to the Minister's attention to detail, the mobility allowance will not be taken into account for non-contributory old age pension. It brings into line the other allowances which are already paid by the health board, and which are not affected, such as the disabled persons maintenance allowance.

In general, I again welcome the Bill and thank the Minister for bringing forward the legislation at this time. I have no doubt that the taxpayer in particular will welcome this Bill, particularly as it relates to confronting abuse and strengthening control measures in the social welfare area.

I agree with Senator Wallace, in her very considered contribution to the Bill, that the area of social welfare is extremely important. It is important because it touches the lives of so many people. According to the figures mentioned in the Minister's Second Stage speech it affects 641,000 people. For that reason alone any Bill dealing with social welfare, improvements, tightening up or otherwise is extremely important but it is also important that in the rationalisation, updating or consolidating of legislation — particularly in the social welfare area — we would try to ensure that those who are least in need are not assisted by the State and that those who are most in need are on the priority list for help. Looking at this legislation, I am afraid it does not meet any of those requirements. The Labour Party will be opposing this Bill because we feel it is inadequate, in some respects, that undue emphasis is placed in some areas and that it is a contravention of the recently produced Programme for National Recovery which related specifically to the social welfare area. A commitment was given that the Government would maintain levels of social welfare, although they put in the clever proviso “within the resources available to them”. The Government were not honest in their negotiations in outlining to their social partners that changes would be made in the qualification and in the numbers of contributions required in future for some of these benefits. For that reason, and for some other reasons that I will deal with briefly, we are opposing the Bill.

I would like to spell out our opposition because it is appropriate where a Bill lays such emphasis on fraud that we should clarify our opposition to the Bill. The Labour Party are included in the group who do not condone fraud in the social welfare area or in any other area. We have always said that people who are working and paying PAYE contributions, and so on, are rarely involved in fraud in these areas simply because their contributions are deducted from their pay before they ever receive it.

The facilities available for working people to defraud the system are very limited. We have seen and read of widespread abuse in the area of the self employed and other such sectors, particularly in the area of taxation. We are opposed to the Bill, not because it tries to address the problem of fraud, but because it impinges on the acceptable norm for qualification for certain categories. For that reason we will oppose the Second Stage of the Bill and we will try to amend certain other sections on Committee Stage.

Social welfare is divided into many categories. Before I deal with the categories I will deal with the question of fraud. It is appropriate to address that problem and to look at the figures the Minister has produced, following his efforts in this area, by computerisation and increased staff and vigilance on the ground. It appears now that he is placing much emphasis on the employer's responsibility in this area. I have always said that the employer can play a major role if he is aware that his employee is fraudulently drawing money from the State. If penalties are required to address the problem, let us talk about them. Why not have incentives for employers?

This point was referred to by Senator Cregan who made a wide-ranging speech, some of which I would not agree with, but he touched on some very fundamental areas. If we look at the problems of employers in this area of employing people or employing additional people, we see that the State put so many barriers in their way that they now confess publicly that they do not want to be bothered employing extra people because of the requirements to do all sorts of extraordinary things and they will be penalised if they do not do them.

I suggest that, as an incentive to employers to create employment we should not be talking about penalties but incentives which would ensure that employees are full time workers, that their contributions are collected and transmitted to the Revenue Commissioners so that the employers will get the full tax benefit by way of allowance. The employee will get the full benefit for sickness, unemployment or redundancy. That is the way to address this problem but, apparently to cloud the other issues in the Bill, the Minister is putting much emphasis on employers and is insinuating that some of them at least are guilty of fraud.

I am aware of part time employment, particularly in agricultural areas in the summer during harvesting, hay saving and otherwise, when farmers who cannot have full time employees require part time workers to be available to them. I am also aware that where employees were discovered to be signing and working in this capacity, the employer refused to sign the declaration that they were being recompensed for their work. If the declaration was signed by the employer at the time, that person could have had his allowance withdrawn. The actual word of the inspector who witnessed the employee working was not sufficient because the employer's statutory declaration of employment was required. If that area was addressed, it would eliminate this problem of part time workers for special reasons. Many of us understand the need for part time workers to be able to earn extra money. This raises the whole question of whether employers should be given incentives to employ people rather than having all sorts of disincentives for people who are in receipt of unemployment benefit, who want to get additional work or another job.

The social employment scheme addressed this problem in some way. As outlined by previous speakers there is no penalty if you decide to get additional employment. That is a totally different scheme designed by the previous Minister for Labour, Deputy Quinn, to help to create a work ethic, to bring them back into the employment sector without penalty and to give them a minimum amount of money that was an improvement on their social welfare. There was an incentive to come off unemployment assistance and go onto social employment schemes.

We must look at social welfare for what it is. It is the responsibility of the State to ensure that people who are unable to work, and who are unable to get work, are protected and have their incomes guaranteed. As Sister Stanislaus has said, it is a human dignity right of theirs to be assisted by the State to ensure that they survive. That is what social welfare is for. Any other changes in Social Welfare Bills which make it more difficult or make it impossible for them are not to be commended and I certainly would not support them.

I will deal with the areas of social welfare with which I am confronted as a public representative. In the area of unemployment assistance where we have 230,000 people, I find it almost impossible to convince the Department of Social Welfare that married women who are unemployed and available for work should qualify for unemployment assistance or unemployment benefit, to which they have contributed. They have lost their jobs for one reason or another. We have had to produce documentary evidence from mothers and mothers-in-law that they were available to mind children. In some cases as many as 20 to 30 letters from individuals and different employers were necessary. Somehow or other, in spite of equality for women and Europe's directive to the contrary, the Department of Social Welfare consider that married women are not entitled to work — and that attitude is now growing — and definitely not entitled to unemployment benefit or assistance.

Unemployment assistance is extremely difficult for wives to obtain because, in the assessment process, 50 per cent of their husband's income is assessed as part of theirs, even if, through some fault of his, he is not even contributing towards her maintenance. However, if he is earning, 50 per cent of his income is counted as being that of his wife and she does not usually qualify for unemployment assistance irrespective of the equality directive. That only comes into play where both are on social welfare and are treated separately. Now we discover that because of that there was a penalty loss.

I am pleased that the Minister has decided to extend for a further period the anomaly that will airse following that directive, if this interim payment made by the previous Government is withdrawn, because the amount of money involved would be too much of a shock for people on very low incomes. That is my understanding of the problems in the area of unemployment benefit and assistance, particularly for married women. That does not mean that the Jobsearch programme has not, as the Minister said, brought out some figures regarding people who did not appear to want to enter into the job training programme in the belief as that they understood it that it was not to be an effort to find work for them but to penalise them and take them off social welfare. That was how they approached it. There is the widespread opinion that in the area of social welfare recipients the Jobsearch programme is a con job and is one way of getting people off the register. If people are genuinely not available for work I do not hold any brief for them. Any process which is necessary to sift through that process will have our support. Certainly we would not condone anybody who would be defrauding the State and purporting to be available for work when in fact he is not available for work. How can we transmit that problem then into the area where we want to genuinely get work for people? This is where the manpower agencies need to have themselves redirected in what they are doing to ensure that they make every effort to take people off the unemployment register and put them into productive employment whether that be in the service industry or otherwise.

Apart from the social employment scheme I would suggest that the manpower offices have rarely produced jobs for anybody. They have done interviews for some State bodies and apart from that I do not know of any scheme they have designed in their own right or of any case in which they have channelled people to employers who needed them.

I have discussed the problem of disability benefit in this House on numerous occasions. We went through a phase at one stage when almost every applicant was being taken off this benefit on the understanding that if they were sick enough they would appeal and be put back on benefit. I had cases which eventually the Ombudsman had to fix because of certain regulations which allowed a medical inspector, by law, to give an opinion; once his opinion was given, whether the opinion was right or wrong, regard had to be taken of it. It was very difficult to get a change in that opinion without producing medical evidence of the strongest possible nature involving going back into hospital documentation, X-rays and everything else, to convince medical referees that people had certain entitlements to disability benefit. My argument at that time was and still is that where medical checks are carried out on people drawing disability benefit, proper medical facilities should be available. If the Department of Social Welfare cannot provide them, hospitals or clinics in the area should make those facilities available for doctors from the social welfare to properly test and examine people by X-ray or otherwise. They should have access to records and have available to them the use of equipment in hospitals to be able to do the job properly rather than just checking pulse or listening to heartbeat.

Apart from frightening the life out of people about their entitlements to disability or invalidity pension, we must have regard for people who are genuinely sick and unable to work. These people would dearly like to get a doctor's clean bill of health and to be able to work. The best news they could get would be that they were ready and fit for work and it would be lovely if they had a job to go back to but most of these people have no jobs to go back to. If work was available very few of these problems would arise. I hope that the Minister, in trying to ensure that disability benefit recipients are correctly examined, would use the facilities which the health boards cannot afford to use any more as a result of cutbacks in their area. Facilities might be lying idle. For instance, the hospital in the town of Tipperary which has been closed would be available for any sort of test the Minister might wish to have carried out. I suggest that use should be made of that facility, perhaps with the Department of Health being paid something for the use of it.

There is a problem also in the area of unemployment assistance particularly for young people who are living at home and who find it extremely difficult to qualify in the means test. I do not know of any national guidelines set down by the Department stating what value, if any, should be put on the fact that adult boys and girls — of 18 years and upwards — who are living at home can walk in the door and sleep in a bed in that house. They are expected to make a contribution if they can but if they do not have work they are a burden on their parents. Yet in the process of assessment for unemployment assistance, they find it extremely difficult to qualify.

The Minister should lay down some kind of national guidelines because there is a wide ranging discrepancy in this area. It almost means that the parents have to be subjected to a means test to qualify their child for the benefit. The child would not be applying for the benefit if he was able to get work. We have a catch-22 situation where parents are almost advocating their children to leave home, to get a flat or to emigrate. That is the problem we begin to create when we make regulations that make it extremely difficult for people to qualify for help.

The same applies to small holders' assistance schmes. Many people do not have sympathy for small farmers but after two dreadful years small farmers who had any kind of borrowings or who suffered livestock losses are at the lowest poverty level one could imagine. In the process of investigation by the Department of Social Welfare and of means testing, it is usually the previous year's income that is taken into account because they are the only figures that are available. This is the year that small farmers are dying of hunger. There is an urgent need to address those areas of the social welfare code. The sooner the national contribution scheme is brought into being for everybody the sooner we will do away with the anomaly of the widespread disowning of one's property, of property being handed on to somebody else for the purpose of qualification for social welfare without contributing anything to the State. All their wealth and property are transmitted, except for the house, and then they qualify for assistance. When those kind of people are contributing and getting something in their own right it will be fine for them to transfer, their property to the younger generation. I am delighted that the Departments of Social Welfare and Agriculture as well as other agencies have been stimulating the transfer of land and not penalising people in that respect in so far as the areas of income tax or social welfare are concerned. They should be assisted by way of a contribution scheme and then everybody would qualify when they reach the age at which pension is paid. People cannot understand why, when they reach pension age, they do not automatically qualify for a pension.

The free fuel scheme was extended this year to long term recipients of unemployment assistance. That change was made on foot of a case in the European Community which left us with no option because these people were deemed to be in a category to which the scheme needed to be extended. For unemployment assistance recipients it is absolutely specific that they must be living alone. A person living with another who is also in a qualfying category experiences extreme difficulty in convincing either the Department of Social Welfare or the health board that both should qualify for benefit. I would like confirmation from the Minister about the regulation which prescribes the long term unemployed to live along. An old age pensioner who is living alone will get benefit but if an unemployed member of the family is in the house they will not get benefit. One of the categories should get it.

The system of payment of disability benefit by the employer in the first number of weeks when the person is ill and looks for benefit from the Department is a backdoor method of taxing disability benefit payments. When the employer pays it it is considered to be wages. As I understand it, it is not wages because it has not been worked for. It is a payment because a person is unable to work because he or she is sick.

The additional contributions proposed for the qualification for disability benefit and other benefits are a retrograde step. What happens when this Bill becomes law? What happens to somebody who gets sick, having only four years contributions? Those people are not available for work, they cannot qualify for unemployment benefit because they are sick and they do not have sufficient contributions to qualify for payment. Will they now have to go to the supplementary welfare officer and start begging for the last semblance of income from the State? It is degrading enough to stand in the pouring rain on the footpath to queue but it is even more degrading because the system is now geared against people who, because of the lack of contributions, cannot get benefit because they did not have five years stamps. I am against increasing the requirements of contributions. It is retrograde and it is an unfair penalty in an area where we would need to have compassion because people are genuinely unable to work.

There are measures in this Bill that are retrograde. They are not progressive. The Minister would have had our assistance in dealing with fraud and everybody would agree that something should be done in some areas but the real problems in the Bill for genuine beneficiaries have been clouded by emphasising fraud only. The most fundamental thing about this Bill is that it further penalises people in an area where I thought the Government with all their promises would have looked after the poor, the old and the sick in a better way than anybody else had ever done before. This Bill is a contradiction of that avowed aspiration and I cannot support it in its present form.

I welcome the Bill. We know that fraud in the social welfare system is at a very high level. Senator Wallace spoke about the organised fraud which is rampant. In the Border areas people are going hither and thither on both sides of the Border availing of the best on both sides.

It is demoralising for people on social welfare. I do not know if any of the Senators have had experience of drawing the dole? I had for a very short while. The first job I got was as a temporary postman. I had to pack it up because I was not registered as unemployed and to do that I had to sign the dole. It was demoralising, even in those days. It was more difficult to defraud the system in those days and perhaps we might go back to that system again? The dole form then had six squares and if you worked a day you put on an "X" and if you were not working you put on a "No". You got paid only for the days you were not working. It was very important to ensure that you put an "X" for the day you were working because you made sure you got a stamp on your card. If you had 26 stamps you got unemployment benefit for the winter months and it was an incentive to every person in rural Ireland to get work and get 26 stamps. Therefore, he ensured that the employer put on the stamps.

I agree with a lot of what Senator Cregan said about incentives. Our system at present is loaded against the employer. I was an employer but I sold the business. When I started employing people 20 years ago I had only to worry about the bank manager and ensure that when the inspector from the employment exchange called I had the cards stamped. If I did not have them stamped he said he would come back the next day and I should get them done. It was a nice personal relationship. He called once a year, you went to the post office, bought the stamps, and got the cards up-to-date. That was a simple system which produced good results. It created jobs and it encouraged employment.

While I agree that there is need for control units and investigation units, I wonder does it cost a lot to do all this? Why does the system lend itself to abuse? We should consider that aspect. Even if a stamp cost £40 a week, an employer would prefer to put a stamp on a card than have to pay a bookkeeper to come in to do his PAYE and PRSI returns. It is a mammoth task, particularly for many employers who started in the days when the bank manager did your books and the social welfare officer kept your cards. They were two simple systems but they were very efficient and we had far less abuse.

When people have to go to the Garda station or to the social welfare officer it is demoralising. We have a new office in Sligo. It is working better but in the old office it was shocking to see men who worked for many years standing in a queue. Many people operating in those offices were far from social in their attitude. I would like to see a change in that regard.

I am partially in agreement with all the emphasis on the employer. I do not agree with the reference that was made to the self-employed. The self-employed people employ others. On the one hand we want people to create jobs and when people create jobs — many of those were PAYE workers who had either to join the dole queue or make use of their capabilities and the ability to create jobs for themselves and for others — it is very hard to hear them being continually sniped at as if they were some kind of criminals, some kind of an inferior people and not people who are doing their best to create jobs for others and take people off the dole queue.

I get very annoyed with people who make those sniping remarks at the self-employed. The self-employed are a very sound type of people who have made decisions not to go on the dole queue but to take off their coats and work hard. Many of them are working very long hours to try to make a go of their businesses because it is a challenge when they get involved.

I believe that is one of the good things that will come out of the present redundancy schemes. There are many young people who are PAYE workers, who have for many years had some pet hobby they would like to develop, and have a lot of experience they would like to use for the benefit of others. They could not afford to take the risk of going into this but, if they can get their voluntary redundancy, I believe they will use their abilities. If a man retires at 65 or 67 he is past the stage of getting too involved but if he retires at 55 to 60 years of age, with a guaranteed lump sum or pension, he is the type we can expect to help to reduce our dole queue. I am convinced of this and it will be interesting to see if it happens.

There are many farmers who would employ people for three or four months of the year, but not on a weekly basis. I know many people who have given up work they used to do, such as going to the bog, doing tillage and so on. They do not want to employ-people as it creates too many problems. If a man gets £60 or £70 a week unemployment benefit and you employ him and give him £60 a week more, that is £120 a week, it costs you another £40 a week to pay all his overheads and, at the end of two or three days, he is out of the system. After you have your few weeks work done, the hay saved, the turf cut, the crops in, you must let him go until harvest time again and he is out of the system. When he did a nixer he was never out of the system. He could work and get paid for the days he worked. If that system was brought in with really tough penalties for anybody who violated the rules, it would solve many problems.

We hear a lot about the black economy which is rampant. I am in two minds about this thing. First, you have the man who is qualified to draw unemployment assistance and all he does is draw it, go down to the pub and waste it. Then the St. Vincent de Paul Society or the county council have to give him something to help to keep his wife and family alive.

The St. Vincent de Paul Society would be far more charitable to the unemployed than Senator Farrell.

Since I came into this House I have heard heckling from backbenchers with a college and university education. You would not get it in the most debased society in Ireland. It is about time educated people learned a bit of manners. They must never have been taught manners at school or anything but arrogance and ignorance. I am amazed at educated people being so arrogant and so ignorant and it is not the first time we have heard this heckling from those so-called intellectuals. It is about time they got their feet on the ground and realised that they will have to make a living for themselves in the open world. Are they fit to create jobs for themselves with all their letters to their names?

I am sick of the attitude of those people. Those intellectuals are getting under my skin because of the way they interrupt everybody who tries to make points in this House. No wonder we had children the other day throwing eggs and abusing the Minister's car. If these are the kind of teachers they have, it is no wonder they do this.

Could we get back to the Social Welfare (No. 2) Bill?

It is time we got back to a bit of manners, a bit of discipline and a bit of self-control.

Could we get back to the Bill?

I am getting annoyed with this continual sniping by people of that calibre. I could take it from people of lesser calibre. I was on the point about people who succumb to taking a bit of work on the side to keep their home together. This is a difficult decision. I often fight with my conscience about this. When you see one who qualifies and squanders and the other who qualifies and increases, it is difficult to make a decision because you know that people on £60 or £70 a week are finding it impossible to support their wives and families. We know it is impossible and that you would need to be earning over £100 a week today to be able to live in a modest way.

The social employment scheme could be extended. It was amazing that it was criticised. We welcomed it and we feel that it has done a lot of good work. There have been many amenity schemes, many rural and environmental schemes carried out with this money. When people are working it creates an entirely different environment. In the fifties when I was trying to collect a few bob in rates from people who were unemployed, their houses were run down, the farm was run down and they had no courage to do anything about it.

As soon as they got some job and a few bob they were able to pay their rates. They started to paint and decorate their houses and you were working with a different stream of people. People who were working talked about the value they got and what they were doing with their homes. It creates a completely different environment when people work and they do up their homes. The spin-off creates more and more jobs. When people are on social welfare they go down to the comer, to the post office, the pub, or the club and they play pool. It is an aimless, idle life, whereas, when they are working and activated, they are going in another direction. We should try to develop the social employment scheme. I often wonder if it would cost that much more to give them the money which we pay in social welfare as a supplement towards work. We must get back to the work ethic.

When we talk about social welfare or about employment we are talking about two very emotional subjects because we will always be told about all the hard cases. I sometimes wonder are we doing enough for many people who are on social welfare with regard to how they spend that money. A lot of social welfare is spent today in the wrong manner. It is given as a supplement to make a better home life. We must all admit that a considerable amount of it is making home life difficult because it is being spent on drink, drugs and so on which is not in any way conducive to a happy home or a good family.

We should have a control unit to help people because there are two things in this country that need very careful handling, namely, brains and money. Brilliant men do not always make brilliant operators and people who get large legacies are often, after a short while, back to where they started. We are not getting value out from our social welfare system and the people are not getting value from it. When we have so many moneylenders operating in housing estates and so on, is it not time that we had a system to educate those people on how to make the best use of their money? Most people living in a housing estate are generally on the same level of income, whether they are employed or unemployed. Eighty per cent of the homes are done up nicely and they make a success of them, but 15 or 20 per cent, or maybe less, fail to make a go of it. There is no reason why they should have failed other than they were not capable of making the same go of it as the other 80 per cent. There should be more services available to these people to educate them on how to use their money more wisely and more efficiently.

There is huge fraud in the sick pay section. What is wrong with doctors? Why are they saying that people are sick if they are not sick or are our doctors capable of differentiating between a man who is sick and a man who is not sick? I suggested one time in relation to absenteeism in jobs that after a person has been on two or three certificates that person should be sent to an investigation unit in a hospital to see if the problem could be solved. From the figures that the Minister has given us it is obvious that many people who were not sick have been certified as sick. Are our medical men able to do this job? If they are not, is there any system whereby we can send people to hospitals or somewhere else where they can be checked out? Why does a doctor give a certificate to a man saying he is sick if he is not sick or is he able to know the difference?

I welcome the Bill because there is colossal abuse of the social welfare system and I also welcome the control units and the investigation units. I would also like to see some system to facilitate rural employment which I believe could play a big part in reducing the unemployment figures. There should also be some system for casual employment, that rather than having a person going through the same complicated system of registering, getting a number and so on, that casual employment could be introduced by means of some other simple system such as stamping a card because there are a lot of casual workers.

Many employers employ people on a casual basis because if a machine breaks down and there are four or five men idle they will get the first man who can help them. This may be somebody who is on the dole. Those people break the law but if they did not their business might suffer. Would the Minister, if not in this Bill at some time, consider how we could encourage people to spend more wisely and also how we could cater for casual employment rather than having to go through the same system as the factory with 30 or 40 people employed which has a computerised system.

We all know that snowflakes are very small but it is the amount of snowflakes that fall that creates the drift that stops everything. The same applies to employment. The small numbers add up. In my village there are up to 80 people employed in five or six small units. If we were to wait for one big unit to employ that number of people those people would not be employed in north Sligo. We must try to facilitate the smaller units and the casual employers and those who will only employ part-time workers. I welcome the Bill.

I am sorry if my interruption upset Senator Farrell. I am not sorry for interrupting him but I am sorry my interruption upset him. I am glad he recognises my calibre even if he does not approve of my behaviour. I do not know if he intended to say that but he said it.

May I inform the Senator that it is now 1.30 p.m. and we will be adjourning the debate under the Order of Business to take Item No. 3. Would the Senator prefer if we adjourned now?

That is quite acceptable to me but obviously we will have to have the agreement of Members of the House.

Debate adjourned.
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