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Seanad Éireann debate -
Thursday, 24 Nov 1988

Vol. 121 No. 8

Prohibition of Incitement to Racial, Religious or National Hatred Bill, 1988: Second Stage.

Question proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

There are two main reasons for bringing forward this Bill. In the first place, it contains one of the two legislative measures to enable this country to ratify the United Nations Covenant on Civil and Political Rights. The second reason is that provisions in the Bill will enable legal action to be taken to deal with an abuse which has manifested itself here from time to time — that is, the preparation in this country of racist material for publication or distribution outside the State.

Since the requirements of the UN Covenant constitute one of the main reasons for the Bill, I think it would be appropriate if I said a few words about international developments in the area of human rights since the Second World War, as this will help to put the provisions of the Bill in their more general, international, context.

After the Second World War there were persons of vision who realised that one of the causes of the war had been the awful violations of basic human rights during the immediate pre-war period, which then continued throughout the six years of war. The persons realised that while human rights provisions were important for the individual they were also important for the future of mankind generally. Thus was born after the war the concept of an international law of human rights.

The first instruments in this new international law of human rights were the United Nations Charter and the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. As we all know, 1988 marks the 40th anniversary of the Universal Declaration. The Charter and the Universal Declaration were followed by the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights and the International Covenant on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights. In addition, in Europe, we have the European Convention on Human Rights and across the Atlantic there is the American Convention on Human Rights.

The International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights was adopted by the General Assembly of the United Nations on 16 December 1966 and most of it came into force on the 23 March 1976. It had been signed by this country in October 1973. There has been criticism here in Ireland of our delay in ratifying that instrument. Against that, I think it can be said that in general, this country has had a very good record on human rights. However, ratification of the Covenant by this country is a desirable objective, and one which I hope will soon be met, enabling us to meet our international obligations in this respect.

Experience has shown how important it is to maintain international standards in this area. I might refer in this connection to the Amnesty International Annual Report for 1988, which covers 135 countries and which refers to violations of human rights in many states, including some which have ratified this Convention. I am not referring to this report in any sense of self-righteousness, nor indeed am I pointing a finger anywhere in particular. I am simply stating a fact and making the point that there are citizens of quite a number of countries around the world who do not enjoy the rights and freedoms taken for granted in this country.

Before I come to the Bill itself, I would like to develop that point a little further and also to introduce a note of caution and realism in relation to the terms of this Bill. In this country we are essentially a homogeneous society. The demo-graphical development of the country has been heavily influenced by historic, economic and, indeed, geographical considerations. Despite our membership of the European Community and, therefore, our close relationship with a number of societies which are becoming increasingly multiracial, the racial structure of this country is unlikely to change significantly for some time to come. Because of this, the type of legislation we are now debating may not appear to have the same immediacy for us as for some other countries. I am not saying the occasional problem of racial incitement does not arise here — but when it does, it is almost always due to localised ignorance and fear rather than to any general sense of intolerance or hatred towards people of other races or religion. In those circumstances we have to be careful in enacting legislation not to appear to create problems where none previously existed. We must also be ready to meet the argument that this legislation interferes with the right to free speech merely in order to placate sections of international opinion. On balance, I feel that the legislation is worthy of consideration on its own merits, regardless of international obligations, and I would hope that comment on it, both inside and outside the House, will be moderate and balanced.

I come now to the immediate background to the Bill. In July 1983 an interdepartmental committee was set up, which was chaired from the Attorney General's Office, with terms of reference to examine Ireland's ratification of international covenants and conventions, and with particular reference to the area of human rights. The committee decided to examine first the problems involved in ratifying two UN Covenants — the International Covenant on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights and the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights — and to prepare a report on these two Covenants before proceeding to consider other international instruments. The committee issued a report on those two instruments in December 1984. Originally the committee had intended to consider also in that first report the International Convention on the Elimination of all forms of Racial Discrimination, but it quickly became apparent that the necessary detailed consideration would have unduly delayed the report.

The Universal Declaration of Human Rights in 1948 was regarded as a preliminary step in the area of human rights. The view was taken that there should be a more elaborate formulation of standards in instruments which would have undoubted legal force as treaties between the ratifying states. Thus, the two covenants were adopted and, as I have already said, entered into force in 1976. The fundamental difference between the two covenants, and the reason why two instruments rather than one were adopted, is that the objectives of the Economic, Social and Cultural Rights Covenant are to be achieved progressively, whereas immediate compliance is required in relation to the Civil and Political Rights Covenant. Therefore, before this country can ratify the Covenant on Civil and Political Rights, we have to incorporate into our legislation any measures, not already covered in that legislation, which are necessary for compliance with the covenant.

The interdepartmental committee identified two legislative changes which are necessary before ratification of the Covenant on Civil and Political Rights can take place. The first is the abolition of the death sentence for crimes committed by persons under 18 years of age. The second is legislation to give effect to the provision concerning incitement to hatred contained in Article 20, paragraph 2, of the covenant. Legislation to give effect to the first aspect is contained in the Child Care Bill, 1988, now before Dáil Éireann. The Bill now before us gives effect to the covenant provision regarding the prohibition of incitement to hatred. Accordingly, as soon as this Bill and the Child Care Bill become law, the way will become clear for this country to ratify the Covenant on Civil and Political Rights. It is intended at the same time to ratify the Covenant on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights. The interdepartmental committee concluded that no legislative action was necessary before the latter instrument was ratified by the State.

Before looking at the Bill itself, I would just like to add that the interdepartmental committee is still in existence and is at present considering what legislation, if any, may be necessary to enable this country to ratify the Convention on the Elimination of all Forms of Racial Discrimination. This is a major task, which will not be finished for some time. It is appropriate, therefore, to go ahead now with this Bill rather than delay it while awaiting a report from the committee on the question of legislation in relation to the Racial Discrimination Convention. I should point out in that connection that the Bill before us deals only with the question of incitement to hatred, which is covered in Article 20 of the covenant, and not with the general question of racial discrimination, which is dealt with in the Racial Discrimination Convention.

Article 20, paragraph 2, of the Covenant on Civil and Political Rights reads as follows:

Any advocacy of national, racial or religious hatred that constitutes incitement to discrimination, hostility or violence shall be prohibited by law.

The Bill is intended to give effect to that provision. Deputies will notice that the definition of "hatred" at the end of sections 2, 3 and 4 in the Bill covers hatred against any group of persons on account of their colour and ethnic or national origins, as well as on grounds of their nationality, race or religion. One of the reasons for this is that it is desired to cover in this Bill the corresponding requirement contained in Article 4 of the Racial Discrimination Convention on the prohibition of incitement to racial hatred and incitement to racial discrimination. The term "racial discrimination" in that convention has reference to "race, colour, national or ethnic origin". Accordingly, the terms used in the definition of "hatred" in the present Bill will not only suffice in the context of the covenant but should also be wide enough to cover the corresponding provision in the convention.

Now to the content of the Bill itself. The provisions to implement the covenant requirement are essentially those in sections 2, 3 and 4 of the Bill. The most general of these provisions is section 2 which, Senators will note, covers not only written material and visual or sound recordings, but also words, behaviour or displays in public places or at public meetings which are intended to, or are likely to, stir up hatred on racist grounds or on any of the grounds set out in the definition of that term set out at the end of each of those sections. We have been largely free from this type of activity in this country and this section will provide a weapon to ensure that any manifestations of it can be appropriately dealt with.

Section 3 carries the principle of section 2 into the area of broadcasting, which in this context includes both sound broadcasting and television. Section 3 is a long section, much of which is taken up with the provision of defences for people involved in broadcasting against whom proceedings might be taken under the section, and also with giving power to the Garda to require the production of the relevant script or recording in appropriate cases.

Section 4 makes it an offence to prepare or possess material or recordings of a racist or otherwise offensive nature to be distributed or broadcast in the State or elsewhere. One of the objects of this section is to put a stop to a type of activity which has come to notice in this country from time to time — though not as often as is sometimes maintained — that is, the preparation here of material of a racist nature for distribution outside the State.

I should mention at this point that perhaps the most important general question which arose when the Bill was being prepared was the relationship between its provisions and the right to free expression of convictions and opinions guaranteed in Article 40 of the Constitution. The right to freedom of expression is also guaranteed by Article 19 of the covenant itself, and the question of the relationship between that provision and the prohibition of incitement to racial hatred in Article 20 was a live issue when the covenant was being prepared, as well as in the reviews of the working of the covenant which have taken place since then. The right to freedom of expression is not, of course, absolute. Under the Constitution that right is guaranteed subject to public order and morality and this qualification is echoed in Article 19 of the UN covenant.

The interdepartmental committee, to which I have already referred, in deciding that new legislation was necessary to meet this requirement in the covenant, noted that existing Irish legislation does not go as far as the provisions in paragraph 2 of Article 20 of the covenant, our existing legal prohibitions being confined to incitement to do acts which are in themselves criminal. The committee noted that this would undoubtedly cover many specific acts of incitement to violence, but not incitement to hostility or discrimination or, possibly, to violence in general, as distinct from incitement to commit a specific violent act. While the committee considered it appropriate, therefore, that legislation should be enacted to implement this provision in Article 20 of the covenant, they also pointed out that the simple creation of a criminal offence in the precise terms of the provision in the covenant would limit the honest expression of opinion in private and could make punishable a wide variety of utterances and publications which might not be considered serious enough to warrant criminal sanctions. They were of the view that it might be thought undesirable to permit a situation where private prosecutions of a trivial nature could be brought. They thought, accordingly, that it might, on detailed examination, be considered desirable to qualify the covenant provision to some extent in the necessary legislation.

It was in view of these considerations that the very general nature of the prohibition required by the covenant was qualified in the provisions now set out in sections 2, 3 and 4 of the Bill. These sections, as I have indicated, constitute the central provisions in this Bill — the remainder of the Bill being consequential and related to those provisions. I should mention a number of these other sections in particular. Section 6 is the penalties provisions. Section 8, which states that offences under sections 2, 3 and 4 may be instituted only by or with the consent of the Director of Public Prosecutions, is intended to obviate trivial or mischevious private prosecutions and to ensure that any prosecutions taken are well-based, and is in line with a recommendation made by the interdepartmental committee in this regard. Section 9 gives the Garda power, under warrant, to enter and search premises where there are reasonable grounds for suspecting that offending material or recordings are being kept, and also gives the Garda power to seize any such material or recording. Under section 10 the Garda are given powers to arrest without warrant in appropriate cases. It will be noted that this power of arrest extends to cases where inflammatory words or behaviour, which are racist or otherwise offending under the Bill, are used in public places or at public meetings. Section 11 gives the Court power to order the forfeiture and destruction or disposal of offending material following a conviction under sections 2, 3 or 4.

To sum up, therefore, this Bill is intended to meet the requirements of the UN Covenant on Civil and Political Rights regarding the prohibition of incitement to national, racial or religious hatred. In preparing the legislation we have borne in mind the corresponding provisions enacted in other countries, and we have had particular regard to the terms of the relevant legislation in Norhtern Ireland. I trust Senators will agree that this is a useful short measure which will enable us to ratify the UN Covenant and will enable us also to deal with any instances of incitement to national, racial or religious hatred that might manifest themselves in this country.

Before I conclude I should mention that a minor typographical error has crept into the text of the Bill in subsection (3) of section 3. That is near the top of page 4 in the text before the House. The phrase "(a) or (b) or subsection 2" at that point should read "paragraph (a) or (b) of subsection 2."

I commend the Bill to the House.

I would like to thank the Minister for his detailed speech in introducing this legislation. Indeed, it is a piece of legislation that has been a long time coming, as far as I know. The bones of this Bill have been hanging around the Minister's Department for a number of years. One could say, too, that it is regrettable that we are getting it here with a date deadline, as it is required for 10 December which is the 20th anniversary of the UN Convention on civil and Political Rights.

In welcoming the bill, I have to say I do so with reservations. It is a limited Bill. The Minister has explained in his speech the reason for this. Primarily, it does not meet essential requirements which have been proposed to Governments by human and civil rights groups over the years. The most apparent area of absence is the giving of protection to members of the travelling community in legislation in this country. On behalf of my party, I have put down an amendment aiming to rectify this.

Certainly the greatest importance in the Bill is the endeavour to outlaw the practice of having literature prepared and printed in this country to be exported and used elsewhere by extremist groups associated with the National Front and neo-Naziism. We have a duty and an obligation to ensure that we are not a comfort or convenience centre for any group engaged in incitement or promotion of prejudice and hatred against any person or group on the grounds of race, religion or nationality. While the intent in the Bill is good, I have some difficulty with sections of it. In section 3 (3) we are told, for instance, that hatred is defined. It is not so. It goes on merely to say that hatred means hatred against a group of persons in the State on account of their race, colour, nationality, etc. People would expect to have a greater definition of what strength of feeling or intent we mean by "hatred". It tells us who the hatred should not be aimed at but it does not define hatred. Perhaps it may be possible to elaborate on this. Still on the same section, I would like to query again the term "State". Does that mean a group in this State? Is this qualification necessary? Does it, in effect, mean that we are talking about only what happens in this State? If so, it should be dropped. I feel it is no less important to outlaw hatred or promotion of prejudice against people in other States. Perhaps the Minister might comment on this.

One question I would like to ask is whether this Bill will now enable action to be taken against the IRA and Sinn Féin for their activities which constantly involve incitement to hatred and violence against groups of people, that is, English people with whom they disagree. Will this Bill mean that copies of An Phoblacht will be seized and Sinn Féin members fined or imprisoned for offences under this Bill? Indeed, I cannot see any way in which these groups could be exempted from the provisions of this Bill. On any superficial reading of it they would qualify as offenders. Again, I would like the Minister to elaborate on this point.

As I said earlier, I regret that the Bill does not include a group of people who suffer from great prejudice in this country. We need a measure such as this to arrest the outrageously offensive treatment meeted out to members of the travelling community here. People should not have a licence, as they do now, to engage in abusive and threatening behaviour to the travellers. How can we take measures to influence offensive action against other specific groups and ignore the most harassed miniority living here? On the very day that the newspapers carried reports of the circulation of this Bill one paper had a report about travellers with a heading which read: "Roads Fenced Off — Stay Out of West Cork", and a quote from a county councillor which said the sight of beet is a lot better than the sight of filthy caravans or rubbish. That type of sentiment and that type of feeling and thinking towards the travellers is something we must all condemn. Similarly, I regret that the Bill does not include rights of the homosexual community. They, too, are subjected too often to unacceptable, prejudiced treatment which no decent people should tolerate and which could be brought to an end with legislation. I know that I can leave it to my colleague, Senator David Norris, to deal with this area in greater detail.

Finally, I feel that the fines in the Bill reflect the nature of the offences and the powers given to the Garda. I am not sure about the possibility of people being enabled to use various defences claiming lack of awareness of the true nature of abusive or threatening material. I wonder are these normal sections put into such a Bill? I can see that they would be open to abuse.

I welcome the Bill and I am pleased it will enable Ireland to ratify the UN Convention.

The Prohibition of Incitement to Racial, Religious or National Hatred Bill, 1988, is necessary due to a provision in Article 10 of the United Nations Convention on Civil and Political Rights. It is timely to have it introduced at present. Any state ratifying the convention must prohibit any advocacy of national, racial or religious hatred which constitutes incitement to discrimination, hostility or violence. The Bill makes it an offence to engage in activities, including hhe use of words, in public places or at public meetings. The Bill also prohibits the publishing, distributing or broadcasting of material where it includes material which is threatening, abusive or insulting or intended to, or likely to stir up hatred on account of race, colour, nationality, religion or ethnic or national origin.

I also notice that section 2 of the Bill deals with publication or distribution of written material to stir up hatred against people of a certain race, colour, nationality, religion or ethnic groups. Section 3 prohibits the broadcasting of material that would stir up hatred on account of race, colour, nationality, religion or ethnic or national origin. I noticed in the Bill that the maximum fine in the Bill is £1,000, or six months in jail. For a second offence there is a fine of £10,000, I think that is very excessive. There is a jail sentence of not more than two years. Maybe the Minister might think of reducing that a little because I think £10,000 is a very excessive fine. The Minister might argue against me and say it is right, but I would like to bring it to his notice that I thought it was a bit steep and also the jail sentence of two years.

I welcome this Bill. It probably does not apply to the Twenty-six Counties, but I think it is a great safeguard against what might happen perhaps sometime in the future in our country. I do not believe there is any racial or religious hatred here in the Twenty-six Counties. This type of legislation should be introduced in Britain and in Northern Ireland. I am at a loss to know whether it has been introduced there or not. I believe there is discrimination against certain religious groups in the North. I would like if the Minister would let us know if this legislation has been introduced in Britain and whether it applies to Northern Ireland.

I welcome the Bill. The Bill is intended to meet the requirement of the United Nations Convention of Civil and Political Rights regarding the prohibition of incitement to national, racial or religious hatred. It is timely that the Bill was introduced in our own country. I hope we will not have to apply it for many years to come. It does not seem to be necessary at present, but who knows what is going to happen in two or three years time.

I, also, welcome the Bill. I will be very brief in my contribution. Like Senator Fennell, I would very much wish to see the travellers included as one of those groups against whom there is widespread discrimination. Since they are our largest ethnic minority, and since it is a scandal that we have not really dealt with that problem during the whole history of our statehood, I think it would be very appropriate to include the travellers specifically in this Bill and I would support any amendment to that effect.

I also, like Senator Fennell, think that the phrase "in the State" narrows the scope of the Bill. It does not take into account the propagation, for example, of anti-English sentiments to name just one group outside the State. We tend to indulge rather cheaply and with much self-indulgence in this kind of emotionalism as a facile reaction to some of our complicated problems.

I am not being entirely facetious when I suggest that the material broadcast mentioned under the Bill and the phrase "sound broadcasting" could also be interpreted to include a certain category of songs. There is a small percentage of our cultural repertoire which can be quite offensive. This is a common reaction of many English visitors who unwittingly have stumbled into particular recitals by particular groups to find that the kind of ballad which we would imagine as a very rousing ballad is very offensive to them. There is a small category of songs of this kind, largely of latter-day composition. I am not one of those who would be a revisionist in the sense of wanting to ban or to drop out of our repertoire many of the stock national ballads which do not include the kind of racist sentiment that I am talking about but there is, nonetheless, a category of songs which could be described as offensive. There are a number of groups who specialise in these numbers. One of these groups has been aptly described as having more "wolf than tone". I hope the Minister would not regard that as facetious. The case might very well arise. It would be no deprivation to our rich cultural heritage in both languages were we to, voluntarily or otherwise, renounce this undesirable section of so-called musical compositions.

Earlier this morning many contributions to the debate on the Anglo-Irish Agreement referred to the English gutter press and to the way in which it prejudices the administration of justice and indeed the whole attitude toward our fellow countrymen who live and work in England. The hope was expressed that perhaps something could be done about this, that it was not beyond the resources of modern parliament to devise a piece of legislation which would curb the racist sentiments of the English gutter press. It strikes me, on thinking about this Bill, that this is precisely the kind of legislation which should be reciprocally enacted in Westminster. Is this not exactly the kind of thing that the Anglo-Irish Conference should be dealing with? I recommend to the Minister and his appropriate colleagues that they remind their English counterparts that we are introducing this legislation and to suggest that a similar piece of legislation in the United Kingdom Parliament to curb the malicious activities of the English gutter press should be very much a part of the workings of the Anglo-Irish Agreement. With these reservations I am strongly in support of the Bill.

I thank the Senators for the welcome they have given the Bill and say to them that I fully appreciate that welcome, even though it is provisional in some instances. I can understand that.

Senator Fennell suggested that the provisions of the Bill should be extended to make specific reference to the travelling community and to incitement of hatred against particular groups because of their sexual orientation. On this point I should start by emphasising that I do not wish to condone for a moment the use of abusive words for the incitement of hatred against any particular group in the community. This applies in particular where this is directed at groups who are considered to be disadvantaged. I would, however, draw the attention of Senators to the very wide ambit of the Bill in penalising words or actions directed against groups because of their race, nationality, religion or ethnic or national origins.

This matter was discussed at length in the relevant United Nations forum when the covenant was being drafted. The conclusion was, as is evident from the terms of Article 20 of the covenant, that what is required to be penalised essentially was incitement on grounds of race, nationality, religion. Once you begin to add to that grouping the list becomes open-ended and we would wind up with a new general category of offences in criminal law. The combined wisdom of the national representatives who drafted this provision in the UN covenant obviously did not think that this was necessary nor do I think it is necessary in our circumstances. We have inquired as far as possible as to the legislation in other countries which implemented this provision of the covenant and so far as we can find, the only ratifying states who made specific mention to sexual orientation in their legislation relating to the provision of the covenant were some of the Scandinavian countries. So far as we can find, there was no national legislation implementing Article 20 which made specific reference to any group corresponding to the travelling people.

I might add, in regard to the categories listed under the definition of hatred in the Bill that if any particular group can establish that they have a race, colour or ethnic or national origin separate from the general population then they will already be covered by the provisions of the Bill.

Senator Fennell thought the word "hatred" should be defined. This would be legally impossible. The court itself would have to decide on this in individual cases and no other legislation that we have examined has actually defined it. I accept what has been said by the Senators, that during the course of Committee Stage if there are to be amendments to be considered we shall consider them and be open, fair and reasonable minded about the whole thing with the aim of getting legislation that we can all be happy with.

Would the Minister take on board the suggestion I made that the existence of this Bill and the Act, when it is enacted, would be a useful context in which to argue with his English counterparts in the Anglo-Irish Agreement that there is grave need for a similar measure in the United Kingdom to curb the malign activities of the English gutter press?

I certainly will take that on board.

Is the UK not a signatory?

So the machinery would be in place under the legislation?

I do not agree with Second Stage and I would like to issue a very strong protest. When I left the House I was under the impression there were further speakers. Apparently I have been disbarred now from taking part in a significant part of this debate. I left simply to make a telephone call, so that I could be here.

Is Second Stage agreed?

It is not agreed by me and I want to register the strongest possible protest. It is a cynical and disgraceful manoeuvre.

I am now putting the question: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

Vótáil.

The question is: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time." On that question a division has been challenged. Will those Senators calling for a division please rise in their places?

Senators Norris and Ross stood.

As fewer than five Senators stood in their places I declare the question is carried. The names of the Senators who stood will be recorded in the Journal of the Proceedings of the Seanad.

Question declared carried.

All other Stages will be taken next week.

Is it Wednesday?

Is it possible, now that this has happened on this Bill, that we could return for a further couple of hours to the debate that was interrupted for this Bill at 1 o'clock? There are several speakers who will want to contribute on it and they may find themselves running out of time next week. Would the Leader of the House agree to that?

We agreed this morning that we would take item No. 1 until 1 o'clock and that we would take the Second Stage of item No. 2. I see no reason to go back on that. We will have adequate time to deal with the concluding Stages of the Bill next Wednesday.

When the Leader of the House says adequate time, does that mean that everybody who wants to contribute to the debate on the Anglo-Irish Agreement will be accommodated?

I made it quite clear that we cannot have an open-ended discussion on this matter. I said we would have a further full day to discuss it. It will be up to speakers to accommodate each other in this matter. If the Whips get together adequate time will be provided. There is no such thing as an open-ended discussion.

(Interruptions.)

We are now having a rehash of this morning's Order of Business.

Committee Stage ordered for Wednesday, 30 November 1988.

When is it proposed to sit again?

Next Wednesday.

At what time?

At 12 noon.

Is it possible to have some clear understanding of when precisely the concluding Stages of the Prohibition of Incitement to Racial, Religious or National Hatred Bill will be taken because, as I feared, it is being railroaded through this House.

It does not arise. Due to item No. 2 finishing early, the matter on the Adjournment has to be postponed to next Wednesday.

The Seanad adjourned at 1.55 p.m. until 12 noon on Wednesday, 30 November 1988.

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