I very much regret what has happened and the loss of a very active and very valuable Member of the House, even for a short period. This matter could be resolved if, first, the Leader of the House would assure this side of the House if there is still agreement in principle to the substance of Item No. 1 and, secondly, that no pressure of any sort has been brought to bear to have this item dropped today by the Government Whip in the other House.
Order of Business (Resumed).
I have been standing here from the very commencement of the discussion on the Order of Business and I have been ignored persistently.
I do not think that is correct, Senator Murphy. I appreciate that you were standing. I have never ignored you in this House. Senator Manning would take precedence over you when asking a question at this point and then I have to go over to the Government side. I will call you immediately afterwards. I have never ignored you or any other Member in this House.
I think Members of the Seanad appreciate the difficulties of the Cathaoirleach. There are a number of Senators here who develop the act of being first on the Order of Business, making their speech on the Order of Business, getting whatever publicity they can get.
(Interruptions.)
You are out of order now, Senator. The item on Senator O'Toole has been dealt with. I call Senator John A. Murphy.
I trust you will be as firm every day from now on. I welcome your ruling on this matter.
He wants you to put down the stiletto heel, A Chathaoirligh.
I wear flats.
First, I want to pay tribute to the people who arrange the Order of Business for us. In comparison with times past, we now know in advance what the Order of Business is. We are given good advance information. Therefore, I exercised myself for the past several hours on thinking about the implications of Item No. 1. In fact, I met a prominent RTE personality who was going to be involved with the implementation of Item No. 1. One of the points I was going to make was that we should be sure that this televising is done with proper regard for the membership of the House, not simply to show off a restored Chamber. Now I find that this item has been removed, with total mysteriousness, from the Order of Business. The rumour is commonplace that this is because the Fianna Fáil Party is indignant that the Seanad should have such pretensions as to want to be televised.
Senator Murphy, that is a speech you are making now.
I am speaking on the Order of Business.
You are repeating what has been said.
I want to make one further point. In my experience an item which has been suddenly put as Item No. 1 on the Order of Business deliberately for this week's business and then is removed, just as mysteriously, is unprecedented and it demands a full explanation.
I would also like to express very considerable concern at the withdrawal of Item No. 1. I would like to place on the record my reasons for so feeling——
You have made your point. You do not have to make a big speech about your reasons and how you feel about it.
I want to make this point because it is very important.
The Senator is repeating what he said.
I am not repeating anything. I am expressing concern because of what has already been placed on the record, where it has been very clearly stated that interests outside this House are now controlling the business of the House. If this is true it is a very important point. It is one that is subversive of democracy——
That is definitely repetition and it could well be untrue. I do not know. I will ask you to resume your seat if you are not going to make some new point.
Yes, I am, and it is one that I feel extremely strongly about. I would like to know what my position is as a plaintiff with a complaint before the Committee on Procedure and Privileges now that my representative——
That does not arise.
——has been removed from the House and I understand, cannot represent me at the Committee on Procedure and Privileges. If I cannot get representation I will have to release the documentation to the newspapers.
Senator O'Toole can still be at the Committee on Procedure and Privileges meeting at 4 o'clock. He is only suspended from the service of the House.
Thank you. I appreciate very much that you have given us this information. Apparently I was completely misinformed and I am grateful to you for correcting my misunderstanding.
It is good that I can help you sometimes.
I also feel strongly that it is important that this item of business be dealt with. Perhaps the Leader of the House can give us an indication of the position because it has been suggested to me unofficially that one of the reasons is that there was not consultation with all of the bodies concerned. Can the Leader of the House give us an undertaking that this item will be taken tomorrow, for example? I am sure you will agree with me, a Chathaoirligh, it is important that this Chamber be made as relevant as possible to the people of Ireland. There is no doubt, and the experience of the televising of the Upper Chamber in England makes it clear, that this precise thing does make such a Chamber relevant.
I would like to end by placing on the record, as other people have seen fit to place on the record what I would consider disparaging remarks, my considerable esteem for Senator O'Toole and my regret that he has been removed from the House because he has some extremely substantial and important amendments in his name to the Firearms Bill. I hope they will be moved so that the people of Ireland will not be deprived of his wisdom.
At some stage I will have to seek guidance from you on the new interpretation of what we can say on the Order of Business and particularly your new interpretation of repetition, having listened to many repetitious speeches on the national plan for two days last week, none of which you found in the least bit objectionable. I must at some stage seek from you——
Senator Ryan, wait a moment now. You will withdraw that remark.
Which remark?
The reflection of my chairing the discussion last week on the national plan, irrespective of which Government brought it into this Chamber.
If I offended you and if I said something——
What you said.
You have assured me I am incorrect in assuming that your interpretation of repetition has changed and I will, therefore, withdraw the remark. May I also direct to you, A Chathaoirligh, my request that you, as chairwoman of the Committee on Procedure and Privileges, do not allow the decisions of that body to be hijacked by people who have no role in this House? It seems to me that it is your job, a Chathaoirligh, rather than that of the members, to defend the dignity and rights of this House.
I do not think that arises on the Order of Business. I have tried to carry out my role as Cathaoirleach in the fairest way possible. I have given latitude — and that probably has me in some of the trouble I am in today — in this House that I should not have given and which I regret. It is a big person who admits they have made a mistake. I do not intend to give any latitude to any side from today on.
I was not criticising, in fact, and I withdraw the remark that appeared to criticise your chairing of this House. I was talking about your role as chairwoman of the Committee on Procedure and Privileges of this House, which is a somewhat different role.
It does not arise on the Order of Business.
I am being very careful to sit down, because not sitting down could have very serious consequences.
Well, once you know it, we might have less unruly carryon.
When you stop interrupting me, a Chathaoirligh, I will stand up again. With considerable restraint, given the record I think I have of taking this House extremely seriously, and anybody who doubts that can look at the large number of amendments in my name on the Order of Business of this House over the years. I am simply saying that I, as a long-standing Member of this House, deeply resent the fact that the decisions of our committee — the Committee on Procedure and Privileges — apparently can be hijacked by people who have no connection with this House.
Let me say in conclusion, because Senator O'Toole asked me to say this, that I invite in particular from the Leader of the House an assurance that the Government party are not endeavouring to give the franchise for televising the Houses of the Oireachtas to some body other than RTE and are attempting to defend the interests of their friends in another place by preventing this motion from going through.
In conclusion, I wish to move an amendment to the Order of Business that Item No. 1 be taken first today.
I second that.
I would like to congratulate you, a Chathaoirligh, on the very efficient way you have run this House since you took the Chair. I would like to put that on record.
I understand the significance of the last remark fully. I do not wish the House to get into a divisive situation whereby Members of your own party are congratulating you and people from this side are criticising you but we are getting very, very close to it.
I think it is only fair to say on the Order of Business that this House has made a total disgrace of itself today and the disgrace rests squarely on the Government side of this House. Senator O'Toole, who is an active Member of this House, was making a very serious and very cogent point. He was demanding, which this House has a right to, an explanation for the outrageous behaviour of the Leader of this House and the chaos in which this House is being conducted. It is absolutely unacceptable to anybody on this side of the House that items should be placed on the Order Paper without any notice and should be taken off without any reason having been given. It is contemptuous to this House and it is absurd. I regret that you, a Chathaoirligh, allow this House to be treated in this way. I think we deserve from the Leader of the House serious explanations not only for that but also on whether a decision been made by the Committee on Procedure and Privileges that this would be taken on this date? If that is true and if it is so, why has it been removed?
I regret enormously the fact that Senator O'Toole has been removed for making these points which I am making now when certain other Members of that side of the House do not even bother turning up regularly. I think it is very important——
We are on the Order of Business and you are out of order, Senator Ross. Your last remark——
There are certain Members of this House from whom I would like to know if they are taking their salaries, and why they are not turning up if they are taking them.
Senator Ross, you are completely out of order. Resume your seat, please.
Is it in order for the Minister——
Senator Norris, sit down. Resume your seat. You have already spoken.
Will I have an opportunity to ask this question later on?
No. You have spoken.
Is it not possible to raise it as a point of order?
No.
Finally, I should like to support the amendment put forward by Senator Ryan and to say that it is very difficult for Members of this side of the House to take the House seriously if discussion is curtailed on important matters and if on top of that this House is a puppet on a string and is being dictated to by Members of another House and being treated with contempt.
I want to support the motion put forward here today, that this item remain on the agenda. One looks back to 1986——
I do not want a speech.
I would hope that democratic expression is preserved in the House. I would hope that we could look back to 1986 when radio was introduced to these Houses. The Seanad was the first House to be given the facility of recorded broadcasting. I have a feeling this is what Senator Norris was about to say. I find it extraordinary that the Minister in the House today is clearly indicating his point of view by his expressions in this debate. I find that quite out of order.
The Leader of the House to reply and conclude.
The Order of Business so far seems to have been dictated by innuendo and rumour and various other things form outside the House. Various things were said before I got the opportunity to speak. It is regrettable that any Member has to be asked to leave this House. Nevertheless, I believe it was right that that should happen today.
Senator Manning was the first person to speak and he mentioned that business ordered for today was not being adhered to. I would remind Senator Manning that no business is ordered in this House until the Leader of the House orders it. It does not make any difference what appears anywhere. It is the Leader of the House who orders the business and I ordered the business for today.
Proposes the business.
Orders the business. There was no decision of the House. On the question of consultation and various other items that were raised about the televising or broadcasting of proceedings of this House, it would seem that lack of courtesy has been very much to the fore in various places. I do not know who was consulted by RTE on the matter of broadcasting or what was going to happen. I definitely was not consulted at all by them, in particular in relation to the matter before the House today. We are going to take Items Nos. 2 and 3 today. We go on the Order of Business as proposed by me earlier.
Senator Brendan Ryan, are you moving an amendment, "That Item No. 1 be inserted before Item No. 2".
I am.
I second it.
On a point of order, the Leader of the House said it is he who orders the business of the House. There is a convention going back a very long time in this House that the Order of Business is determined by agreement in advance and that all sides of the House are informed what the business is to be. We were informed that Item No. 1 was to be the first item taken today. I think it is only reasonable in those circumstances if that item is withdrawn that some explanation is given. I endeavoured to allow the Leader of the House to give us an explanation. All I want is an explanation. I am quite prepared to have this business deferred to another day. I asked him for an explanation. I asked him if, in principle, it was being——
Senator Manning, you are going further than a point of order.
I think you will agree that I am probably one of the most reasonable Members of this House but I believe in the interests of the House that we are owed an explanation; otherwise we may have behaviour forced upon us which we certainly would not like to adopt. Secondly, I greatly regret the tone of the debate today. I regret in particular the sweeping allegation made by Senator Ross. I feel it is not in the interests of the House. He should either substantiate or withdraw that allegation which put a shadow over every Member of this House. I regret that. The substantial point is that I have on three occasions invited the Leder of the House to give us the reason why the Order of Business was changed.
Senator Manning, we cannot have long debates now.
Will he give us that explanation. If he does, he will find us reasonable.
I would ask you to resume your seat, Senator.
If he does not give us the explanation, he may find that a course of action is forced upon us which we do not wish to adpot.
On a point of order, the Leader of the House is, of course, technically within his rights in saying that it is he who proposes the Order of Business but he also referred to lack of courtesy. I suggest that were there is an obvious and expected concentration of Members' interest on a particular item and then mysteriously that is not referred to whatsoever, that is lack of courtesy. Senator O'Toole's suspension might well have been avoided had the Leader of the House told us at the outset why it was that Item No. 1 was not being ordered. He has not even told us in his reply. I think that is deplorable.
Senator Ryan's amendment has been moved and seconded.
Will the Leader of the House answer a reasonable request?
He has replied.
He has not.
Question put: "That Item No. 1 be inserted before Item No. 2."
The Seanad divided: Tá, 16; Níl, 27.
Tá
- Bradford, Paul.
- Bulbulia, Katharine.
- Connor, John.
- Cregan, Denis.
- Doyle, Joe.
- Harte, John.
- Kelleher, Peter.
- McCormack, Padraic.
- McMahon, Larry.
- Manning, Maurice.
- Murphy, John A.
- Norris, David.
- O'Shea, Brian.
- Reynolds, Gerry.
- Ross, Shane P.N.
- Ryan, Brendan.
Níl
- Bohan, Edward Joseph.
- Bromell, John A. (Tony)
- Byrne, Seán.
- Cullimore, Seamus.
- Eogan, George.
- Fallon, Seán.
- Farrell, Willie.
- Fitzgerald, Tom.
- Fitzsimons, Jack.
- Hanafin, Des.
- Haughey, Seán F.
- Hillery, Brian.
- Kiely, Dan.
- Kiely, Rory.
- Lanigan, Mick.
- Lydon, Donal.
- McEllistrim, Tom.
- McGowan, Patrick.
- McKenna, Tony.
- Mooney, Paschal.
- Mullooly, Brian.
- Mulroy, Jimmy.
- O'Callaghan, Vivian.
- O'Connell, John.
- O'Toole, Martin J.
- Ryan, William.
- Wallace, Mary.
Tellers: Tá, Senators B. Ryan and Professor Murphy; Níl, Senators W. Ryan and S. Haughey.
Question declared lost.
Is the Order of Business agreed?
On the Order of Business, in the interest of having a harmonious remainder of the day, could I ask that this matter be referred immediately to today's meeting of the Committee on Procedure and Privileges and that the Leader of the House report back tomorrow morning on the future status of Item No. 1 on today's Order Paper?
I suppose that is a matter for the committee. Is the Order of Business agreed?
My request is most reasonable in the light of what happened here today.
Is the Order of Business agreed?
No. I would like an assurance from the Leader of the House that this will be done.
I will have a discussion with Senator Manning immediately afterwards.
Order of Business agreed to.