It is proposed to take Item No. 1 from now until 6.30 p.m. and we will then take Item No. 2. If Item No. 1 is not completed at 6.30 p.m. we will go back to it at 8 p.m. and continue until we have Second Stage completed. For the benefit of Members, I understand there will be a delegation from Czechoslovakia here at 7 p.m. — I only got that notice a few minutes ago — and it will look better if as many of us as possible are present at that time.
Order of Business.
A parliamentary delegation?
Yes, a parliamentary delegation. Tomorrow's business will be the Great Blasket Island Bill, Committee and remaining Stages. It will commence after the Order of Business, at 10.30 a.m. I mentioned we were sitting at 10 a.m. because I hoped to get the Committee Stage of the Finance Bill taken earlier but that was not possible. The House will sit at 10.30 a.m. and the first item will be the Great Blasket Island Bill. We will then go to Committee Stage of the Finance Bill and complete it tomorrow evening.
I am a little unclear about what would appear to me to be a suggestion of haste about the Finance Bill. Traditionally in the House the Finance Bill has got a very good and detailed airing. The acting Leader of the House appears to be suggesting that there is some pressure on us to complete Second Stage today and to complete Committee and Final Stages by tomorrow. On this side of the House we would find such an atitude unacceptable, particularly as we are aware of the fact that constitutionally the Bill does not need to be completed this week and that next week is sufficient time. While there may be a reason for visiting a certain haste upon us, nevertheless on behalf of my party I would like to register a very strong protest and to state that we will not comply with any suggestion or any wish on the part of the Government side of the House to deal with the Finance Bill in a hasty way.
Also, on the Order of Business, may I ask the acting Leader of the House when Item No. 27 will be taken. There is a certain urgency about this. Dental benefits for spouses are not in place for all deserving people throughout the country and many people are looking for a speedy resolution of this matter. It is felt that a debate in this House on the issue would certainly help and would keep up the momentum for change. I would like a reply to that.
I want to check that Item No. 2 will not be taken before 6.30 p.m. if Item No. 1 concludes before that, although that is unlikely.
To clarify the situation regarding the Finance Bill, Members of this House have always been conscious of their constitutional responsibility regarding the Finance Bill. As I understand it, Senator Ryan said we will not be taking that Bill tomorrow because it will not be available and for that reason we are starting at 10.30 a.m. to take the Bill on the Great Blasket Island. Is it still likely that the Finance Bill will be taken tomorrow? It will not be completed tomorrow because there is detailed discussion on it.
I would like to endorse what Senator Bulbulia has said. I am not quite sure what is the hurry with the Finance Bill but it is somewhat inconsistent with the way the proceedings of this House have been run. We are being asked possibly to come back this evening at 8 p.m. and go on for as long as the Second Stage takes. I do not think there is any pressing reason that the House knows why we should rush this Bill through. Maybe the Leader of the House in his reply could tell us if we finish Second Stage today, whether it is intended not only to take Committee Stage tomorrow but to complete Committee and all Stages this week or to go on until next week. I am really asking if it is intended to have a guillotine and what is the actual programme for the Finance Bill because it is important. I have not received a copy of the Bill yet. I may be in a minority there but it seems as if it is to be rushed through with unseemly haste.
I should like to raise very briefly a matter relating to the conduct of business in the House. For a long time it was the custom in the House that Senators did not read contributions from scripts. However, for some time now it seems to have been honoured more in the breach than the observance. It is of interest that this was noted adversely in the public reaction to the televised proceedings last week. I respectfully suggest that you would consider reviving this convention and implementing it.
I want simply to join in the concern expressed by other Senators at what appears to be considerable haste in processing the Finance Bill. It is a lengthy piece of legislation and it has only just arrived in our office, so in order to facilitate us in making considered contributions to this debate a lack of haste would be a good thing.
I would like to ask for further information on a matter I raised on the Order of Business over a month ago, that was a matter I referred, on your advice, to the Committee on Procedure and Privileges from whom I have heard absolutely nothing. Perhaps you would be in a position to advise me as to how I can best proceed from here.
I will communicate with the Senator later.
On the basis of the comments of the acting Leader of the House in relation to the delegation who are visiting this House this evening, may I ask that the acting Leader or those Members who will be present — unfortunately I will be unable to be there myself — convey to the parliamentary delegation from Czechoslovakia the very serious concern in this country at the gross abuse of human rights in Czechoslovakia, particularly to artists, musicians and writers.
In relation to last week, you will be aware that there was widespread discussion on the televising of the House, with positive and negative comments being made. Looking beyond that, may I ask the acting Leader of the House to assure us that no developments outside this House or by people or influences outside this House will be allowed to have any negative impact on the possibility of continuing the televising of this House. I would like to get a commitment from the Leader of the House that we will pursue that matter as quickly as possible because it appears there are——
That is for the Committee on Procedure and Privileges, not for the Order of Business.
Members of the House should be aware that the initiative taken by this House has in a sense been stymied in other places.
There is a committee on broadcasting. Was the Senator not the Independent representative on it.
A committee on broadcasting was set up by the House. It is my understanding — that is precisely why I raised it — that we do not have a Member on it. It is my understanding we have allowed an officer of this House to participate in the meeting as an observer. The House should be aware that the other House did not allow the Seanad to participate as an equal on continuing decisions about whether or not to televise Oireachtas proceedings.
The acting Leader of the House to reply and conclude.
I want to make it very clear that we are not taking the Finance Bill in haste. We are taking it today and tomorrow. Senators can speak as long as they like but we will finish Second Stage today. We will commence Committee Stage tomorrow after the Great Blasket Island Bill which we will probably finish at 2 p.m. It is all very fine for certain people to say there is no hurry with the Finance Bill but it has to be law by Thursday, 25 May. I am sure there are many people who might not like to have to come back here next Monday or Tuesday. I am very confident Senators are getting plenty of time to discuss it. We can have a long day today and a long day tomorrow and we will get through the Finance Bill.
I was asked when we are taking Item No. 27. I suggest to the Fine Gael Party that they put it down as their party's motion in about three weeks time. I cannot give them any other guarantee about it. Broadcasting was mentioned by Senator O'Toole. That is a matter for the Committee on Procedure and Privileges.
With regard to the delegation who are coming to the House today, should the Cathaoirleach welcome them here? It is a new thing in this House.
I intend to welcome them.
Senator Bulbulia rose.
Senator Bulbulia, the Acting Leader of the House has replied and concluded.
I understand the acting Leader of the House has replied but I find his reply enigmatic. I am no more well informed than I was when he began speaking. I really feel there is an element of coercion, albeit very politely and nicely expressed, as I would expect from Senator Ryan.
Is the Order of Business agreed?
No.
Question put: "That the Order of Business be Items Nos. 1 and 2."
The Seanad divided: Tá, 27; Níl, 10.
Tá
- Bromell, John A. (Tony)
- Byrne, Seán.
- Cassidy, Donie.
- Cullimore, Seamus.
- Eogan, George.
- Fallon, Seán.
- Farrell, Willie.
- Fitzgerald, Tom.
- Fitzsimons, Jack.
- Haughey, Seán F.
- Hillery, Brian.
- Hussey, Thomas.
- Kiely, Dan.
- Kiely, Rory.
- Lydon, Donal.
- McEllistrim, Tom.
- McGowan, Patrick.
- Mooney, Paschal.
- Mullooly, Brian.
- Mulroy, Jimmy.
- Murphy, John A.
- O'Callaghan, Vivian.
- O'Connell, John.
- Ó Conchubhair, Nioclás.
- O'Toole, Martin J.
- Ryan, William.
- Wallace, Mary.
Níl
- Bradford, Paul.
- Bulbulia, Katharine.
- Connor, John.
- Cregan, Denis.
- Kelleher, Peter.
- McCormack, Padraic.
- McMahon, Larry.
- Norris, David.
- O'Toole, Joe.
- Ross, Shane P.N.
Tellers: Tá, Senators S. Haughey and Hussey; Níl, Senators Cregan and Kellegher.
Question declared carried.
Order of Business agreed to.