It is proposed to take items Nos. 1, 2 and 3. We will take all Stages of items Nos. 2 and 3.
Order of Business.
Is the Order of Business agreed?
Will the Leader of the House give some indication of what other business it is proposed to take this week?
I would like to ask the same question but in a more extended form because I would like to know the degree of progress we will make and the speed at which this legislation will go through. I believe — I would like an assurance from the Leader of the House on this and it is a matter I know he will be well briefed on because I have just listened to him on the car radio — there may be some question of distortion of the business of the House because of the large numbers of Senators who will be committed to running for the Dáil election, which is a practical consideration but not, I believe, one which should be allowed to affect the proper ordering and conduct of the business of this House. I seek reassurance from the Leader of the House that this will not be allowed, particularly in view of the fact that suggestions from Senator Joe O'Toole, and earlier myself, that the dates of the Dáil and Seanad elections should coincide in order to——
That has nothing to do with the Order of Business.
With the greatest respect, I think it addresses the possibility that the process of the House could be distorted by the Dáil general election.
Senator Ross.
What I want to say will be relevant in all its content to the Order of Business. First, I want to protest in the strongest possible terms about the fact that once again the Independent Members are being deprived summarily by the Government of their own time this week without explanation and without offer. I am not repeating myself when I say it is absolutely unprecedented and outrageous that no time has been offered to the Independents, first of all because what was offered was unpalatable and, secondly, because there is an unseemly rush to close down the Seanad for the general election. That is what is happening. Item No. 9 on the Order of Business is not being taken because the Government do not like it and because they do not want to waste any time in closing down the Seanad so that they can all go off and stand for the Dáil.
You have made your point.
It is a very important point and it is only the first point I have made.
Senator Ross is electioneering already.
I have been electioneering since the last election but I do it in the Seanad.
You will not start electioneering on the Order of Business here today.
I am not. I am trying to continue my points.
He is answering an interruption.
Senator, ask a question and resume your seat.
Perhaps I could continue without interruption from the other side. Secondly, maybe the Leader of the House could give us some indication of the time of the sitting today, how long we intend to sit, the time of the sitting tomorrow, how long we intend to sit then, why we are sitting at 12 o'clock today and the programme for the Seanad until it closes or goes into summer recess. I find it very disturbing that this House has once again become a subsidiary of the other House because I have, in informal conversations, been told quite plainly and simply that there are more than ten people on both sides of this House who want to run for the Dáil——
Senator Ross, resume your seat. You have asked the question.
A final point on the Order of Business and it is a very important point: I want to know when we will discuss the Building Societies Bill, the Central Bank Bill and the Criminal Justice (Forensic Evidence) Bill, because it is only fair that Members of this House should be told what is our programme. We got very little advance notice this week. Things were stopped last week at the last minute, all because there is a general election and this House does not matter when there is a general election. It only matters when it is up to the Government——
Senator, you have made your point. Resume your seat.
Senator Ross has made the best canvass I have heard yet. He is looking for publicity for himself and good luck to him but this House is run by politicians and the Government will run it whether he likes it or not.
Senator Brendan Ryan, please.
There is a very clear indication in the Order of Business — and I think Senator Farrell confirmed it — that when Fianna Fáil have a majority they use it ruthlessly and the people of the country should realise that in the runup to the general election. When Fianna Fáil have a majority they run away with everything and listen to nobody. They walk on minorities. There are six of us here——
What has that to do with today's Order of Business? Senator, address the Order of Business or resume your seat.
I assure you that my chances of re-election to this House are considerably greater than some of those over there who insist on interrupting me, because I do some work in this House.
Senator Ryan, the work you do here or anywhere else does not arise on today's Order of Business.
With respect, what Senator Farrell said did not arise on the Order of Business and you did not ask him to sit down. I am astonished — in particular at the Leader of the House and the Whip of Fianna Fáil who have always treated me with considerable fairness — that they suddenly decide when it is convenient to them not to have Private Members' Business. That is a perfectly reasonable matter to raise on the Order of Business. I do not know whether they are afraid of us or afraid of debate like their own leader apparently is but quite clearly they are not prepared to have any discussion on anything that might in the least bit inconvenience them.
I move: "That item No. 9 be inserted after item No. 1."
I second that amendment, and in doing so recall that you in another ruling last week referred to the fact that the traditions and arrangements which had lasted for two years had suddenly been changed. It is the position that, after much wrangling and discussion, agreements were arrived at that allowed for a certain period of Private Member's Time. I want to make a point about them which I did not make last week and which I hope the Cathaoirleach will take on board and give me a ruling.
The matter was discussed at the Committee on Procedure and Privileges on your advice, after I raised it 18 months ago. The Committee on Procedure and Privileges discussed it and arrangements were made with ourselves, the Fine Gael group, and the Labour group, to make a certain amount of time available. Those agreements with the Committee on Procedure and Privileges were brought back to the House and were agreed to by the House. The House, therefore, agreed to a certain arrangement for Private Member's Time. The decision of the Fianna Fáil group last week was in breach of that agreement and I want to know on what basis the earlier decision of the House was reversed. I also want to know how the Leader of the House justifies the fact that he has treated in such a cavalier fashion those of us who were prepared to put an effort into making the work of the House relevant.
I would also like to put on record my abhorrence of the fact that the Leader of the House absented himself from this discussion. Let it be clear I am not making reference to a Senator being absent; I am making reference to a decision not to participate in a discussion or to answer the points I made last week. I will conclude on that point.
I am not trying to milk this issue; I am simply making a clear and very definite point that there has been a breach of trust. When I make an agreement with somebody I take the upside and the downside of that agreement and I live with it no matter what pressure I come under. I would like an honourable response from the Leader of the House on this topic.
There are a number of other issues I wish to raise. We have discussed on the Order of Business many times during this session the need to get the business completed, the need to deal with all the business before us. A number of matters have already been referred to by Senator Ross such as the fact that the Central Bank Bill which has gone through the other House should now be dealt with by us, the fact that the Building Societies Bill has not been ordered, and that we spent long hours dealing with the Criminal Justice (Forensic Evidence) Bill and now need to take Committee Stage. They are just three of the outstanding Bills which the Leader of the House assured us would be dealt with this session.
Senator, could I suggest to you that the Leader of the House be given an opportunity to answer some of the points?
May I get in again when I get an answer?
No, you may not.
Another matter which I should like to refer to is the fact that the Order of Business has deteriorated into a list of questions whereas the long standing tradition of the House indicated that the Order of Business was a time to make points or statements on matters which refer to the business of the House and the ordering of that business. That is, the Cathaoirleach will accept, what I am doing at this point. The Leader of the House gave a commitment on a number of other items on the Order Paper, on the need for a discussion on the Middle East, and a commitment to Senator Manning at an earlier stage on the report on press freedom and libel. Does the Leader of the House feel any sense of responsibility towards commitments he gave? It appears he now has no intention of meeting them. The House deserves an honest response on those issues.
The Order of Business for today is as has been stated. Items Nos. 1, 2 and 3. Questions were asked about the time and the Stages we are taking. We are taking all Stages of items Nos. 1, 2 and 3 today. We will be sitting tomorrow morning and the first item on the Order of Business will be the University of Limerick Bill and item No. 2 will be the Dublin City University Bill. I am ordering business for today and indicating what the Order of Business will be for tomorrow. Remarks were made about the other House and this House but I do not intend to reply to them because they are not relevant on the Order of Business. Mention has been made of commitments given to take various items that have appeared on the Order Paper and I should like to state that I have given the Order of Business for today and an indication of what the Order of Business will be for tomorrow. That is as far as I am going today. The Seanad is sitting and will remain sitting.
As far as item No. 9 is concerned, we are not taking it. Item No. 9 is a Bill from the Independent Members and there is no obligation on me to take it. I take the points made by the various Senators and they can be raised by them at the Committee on Procedure and Privileges, as is normal.
Senator Brendan Ryan has moved an amendment to the Order of Business, I am putting the question. "That item No. 9 be inserted after item No. 1".
Before this matter is put to a vote——
There is no before anything, I have put the question.
Senators
Vótáil.
Will the Senators who are claiming a division on the Order of Business please rise?
Five or more Senators stood.
The division will proceed.
Question put.
The Seanad divided: Tá, 9; Níl, 14.
Tá
- Cregan, Denis.
- Harte, John.
- Kelleher, Peter.
- Kennedy, Patrick.
- Manning, Maurice.
- Norris, David.
- O'Toole, Joe.
- Ross, Shane P.N.
- Ryan, Brendan.
Níl
- Bohan, Edward Joseph.
- Byrne, Seán.
- Eogan, George.
- Fallon, Seán.
- Fitzsimons, Jack.
- Hanafin, Des.
- Kiely, Rory.
- Lanigan, Mick.
- Lydon, Donal.
- McGowan, Patrick.
- McKenna, Tony.
- Mullooly, Brian.
- Ó Conchubhair, Nioclás.
- Ryan, William.
Tellers: Tá, Senators B. Ryan and Ross; Níl, Senators W. Ryan and Fitzsimons.
Question declared lost.
Is the Order of Business agreed to?
No.
The question is: "That the Order of Business be agreed to".
Question put and declared carried.