First, I must state how pleased I am to be here in this beautifully refurbished Seanad Chamber. I said this to Senator Murphy last week when I was present for an Adjournment Debate on the new junior certificate and the place of Irish in that examination. There were very few Senators present on that occasion, so I now formally congratulate the Senators on their beautiful Chamber. I hope that as many Senators as possible will come back and I hope that there will not be too many of us with you, or lucky to be with you — because otherwise we will not all fit.
University of Limerick Bill, 1989: Second Stage.
Question proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."
We hope not.
It gives me very great pleasure to bring these two measures, the University of Limerick Bill and the Dublin City University Bill, before the House. The high international standing of Irish graduates is something of which all Governments can be justly proud. As we enter the post-industrial information era, the quality of education assumes a strategic importance for Ireland's continued economic and social development. Ireland looks to its people as its prime national resource and during the past 20 years or so a sustained commitment has been made to the development of education at all levels. As a result, Irish graduates are recognised both at home and abroad as people capable of competing with the best in the sciences, technology, business and the arts.
It can be argued that the monasteries of Ireland were the precursors of the medieval university as seats of learning and scholarship. However, the University at Bologna, established in the 12th century, and, then, Paris are generally regarded as the first of the medieval universities.
It is interesting to contrast the development of Bologna vis-à-vis Paris. This contrast in the origins of each and their controlling influences was to be echoed in the 1968 student democracy movements and in more recent debates concerning the control of universities.
The founding students of the University of Bologna were mature students with clear vocational-professional ambitions. Eventually those students formed themselves into unions which became the essence of the governing structure of that university. It is interesting to note that this seminal importance of the mature student is beginning to be re-echoed in the emerging attention and importance in the 1980s of the mature student and of professional, continuing education for university education.
Paris was born of the Scholasticism movement, the preoccupation of French intellectual life of the 12th century, and of the reputation of the great scholar-teacher Abelard. This was one of a number of features which distinguished Bologna from Paris, the study of law being pre-eminent at Paris. They also differed in their governing structures, in that the University of Paris was, essentially, under the control of the professors. Subsequently established universities adopted one or other of the two governing models represented by Bologna and Paris.
It is also interesting to note that the term "university" is not the original term to describe that form of institution; rather, the original term is studium generale and, as asserted by Rashdall in his definitive study “The Universities of Europe in the Middle Ages”:
the term (studium generale) means, not a place where all subjects are studied, but a place where students from all parts were received. As a matter of fact, very few medieval studia possessed all the faculties.
The emergence of the ERASMUS programme of the European Community, in recent years, with its emphasis on the exchange of students and academic staff between colleges and across national boundaries is, in an interesting way, a return to the origins — in that respect — of our modern universities.
Rashdall asserts further:
The notion that a university means a universitas facultatum— a school in which all the faculties or branches of knowledge are represented — has, indeed, long since disappeared from the pages of professional historians; but it is still persistently foisted upon the public by writers with whom history is subordinate to what may be called intellectual edification. However imposing and stimulating may be the conception of an institution for teaching or for the cultivation of universal knowledge, however imperative the necessity of such an institution in modern times, it is one which can gain little support from the facts of history.” And “In the earliest period it (University) is never used absolutely. The phrase, is always “University of scholars ...”
Whatever the origin of the term "University" the history of its development makes for fascinating reading.
The founding of the University of Dublin and the granting of the charter to Trinity College in 1952 marked the commencement of the modern university tradition in Ireland. Earlier attempts to establish universities, notably by the Church, dating back to the early 14th century, proved unsuccessful. St. Patrick's College Maynooth, was founded by an Act of Parliament in 1795 primarily as a seminary for training for the Catholic priesthood. Thereafter, consideration of the role of Government in higher education brings to light many notable names of history. Sir Robert Peel's Government produced the Queen's colleges scheme in 1845; Gladstone, a Liberal Prime Minister, attempted in 1873 to resolve the thorny problem of university education in Ireland but opposition to his Bill was such that it never passed into law; Disraeli's University Act of 1879 set up the Royal University as an examining body with power to confer degrees on all who passed its precribed examinations. The early 1900s saw two royal commissions on higher education in Ireland and in 1908 the Irish Universities Act was passed. This Act established the National University of Ireland as a federal university with constituent colleges at Dublin, Cork and Galway. In 1910, St. Patrick's College, Maynooth, became a recognised college of the university. The 1908 Act has stood the test of time and, indeed, up to now, no new university has been established since the foundation of the State. This fact, among other things, reflects the prudent caution with which the title university is conferred in this country.
The successful economic and social development programmes adopted by Government in the sixties led to the recognition that further growth would depend on a programme of major investment in education. This strategy led to an extensive primary and post-primary school building programme. The 1967 report of the Steering Committee on Technical Education formed the basis for the establishment of a network of regional technical colleges. These colleges were to complement the existing colleges of technology in Dublin in offering technical and technological education to provide the skills needed for a country and economy which was becoming increasingly industrialised.
It was felt, however, that there was an absence of a sufficiently strong emphasis on technological education at university level and the establishment of the National Institute for Higher Education in Limerick in the early seventies was, therefore, a significant step forward.
The Minister for Education of the day, Deputy Brian Lenihan, spoke of his vision for the NIHE and his expectation that it would be a new initiative, of which the country would be proud.
The call for a university in Limerick, as well all know, goes back to the mid-19th century. The gentleman, Pierce Shannon, then Mayor of Limerick, packed his traps and went to England with a deputation to press their case for a university for Limerick, but they came back with nothing. They tried and that quest has been going on ever since then. In the sixties the Limerick University Project again took up the call in a very vigorous and sustained way. At that time a clear and coherent case was presented for the siting of a university in Limerick and the objective was pursued with enthusiasm, a factor which in no small way influenced the decision to establish the first National Institute for Higher Education in Limerick. The autumn of 1972 saw the first students enrolled in NIHE, Limerick in programmes in business, engineering, the humanities and science.
The genesis of NIHE Dublin is to be found in a set of decisions about restructuring the higher education system made by the then Government in 1974. It is instructive to remember that in relation to NIHE Dublin it was stated that it should be a recognised college of the National University of Ireland with a capacity to develop into a constituent college or to become an autonomous degree-awarding institution. It is worth noting too that in 1862 a site was purchased in Drumcondra in Dublin to establish a university on the north side of the city and indeed the foundation stone of this university was actually laid. That sounds a bit like something that would happen during a general election.
And lift the stone afterwards.
NIHE have now seen the fruits of their endeavours. The initiative to have universities in Limerick and north Dublin, therefore, goes back to the mid 19th century and I am pleased that these long-standing ambitions are about to be fulfilled.
In the early years of NIHE Limerick qualifications were conferred by the National University of Ireland of which it was a recognised college. With the development of third level education in institutions in the non-university sector in the late sixties and early seventies, the need for a national system for awards in such institutions was recognised. In December 1968, the Higher Education Authority were requested to investigate the question of the establishment of such a national accreditation system. As a result, the National Council for Educational Awards were set up in 1972. The council were statutorily established in 1979 with power to award certificates, diplomas and degrees following courses of study outside the universities. Since then the council have awarded their qualifications to the students from the two NIHEs and indeed played an important role in their development to become the renowned institutions both nationally and internationally which they are today. The two institutes were themselves established on a statutory basis under the NIHE, Limerick, Act, 1980 and the NIHE, Dublin, Act, 1980.
The national institutes, so established, were challenged to develop programmes of teaching and research at international standards equivalent to those of the established universities, while giving special attention to Ireland's emerging needs in the fields of science, technology and business.
The Government, on the advice of the Higher Education Authority, wished to ensure that there would also be a significant element of the humanities present, and from the outset programmes of study commenced, not only in science, engineering and business, but also in the arts. Indeed, Ireland's first arts degree in European studies commenced in Limerick in 1972. Degree programmes in communications and in languages and a post-graduate programme in journalism were developed in the NIHE Dublin.
It is now 16 years since the first students were admitted to the national institute in Limerick, and nine years since they were admitted to the national institute in Dublin. Since then both bodies have emerged as institutions of high standing both nationally and internationally. Time has permitted their graduates to demonstrate their abilities in a wide range of disciplines from the arts to the sciences, and at the highest academic level up to and including the doctorate.
The recognition of the achievements of the NIHEs is well known to parents and students and is reflected in the high level of competition for admission, the high quality of those students admitted and by the high demand for graduates. The breadth and depth of their academic standing is also attested to by the success with which they pursue post-graduate study at other universities both within European Community countries and further afield.
The NIHEs have played their anticipated role in stimulating economic development, introducing educational innovation and, indeed, have been both directly and indirectly responsible for a wide range of new enterprises which has been attracted to this country, or been created by their graduates.
Some years ago it was proposed to Government that they should consider conferring a more appropriate title and granting the right to award degrees to the NIHEs clearly defining the university level standing of the NIHEs internationally. In order to rigorously establish the justification for such a proposal, a distinguished group of national and international experts were invited to examine the standing of both NIHEs and to advise the Government on the proposal to combine both NIHEs into a national technological university. I must publicly commend and congratulate the thoroughness with which the group pursued its terms of reference. This, on reflection, was not surprising when one considers the membership of the group: Chairman: T.P. Hardiman, BE, BSc, CEng, FIEI, MRIA, Chairman, Investment Bank of Ireland. Deputy Chairman: M.J. MacCormac, MA, MComm, DEconSc, FCCA Emeritus Professor of Business Administration, University College, Dublin. Members: Dr. R.E.D. Bishop, CBE, PhD, ScD, DSc (Eng), FEng, FRS, Vice-Chancellor, Brunel University and Vice-President of the Royal Society. Dr. O.H.G. Mahrenholtz, Ing, DSc (Eng), VDI, Technische Universitat Hamburg, Hamburg, Vice-President, Deutsche Forschungagemeinschaft; Dr. D.T. Wright, BASc, MS, Phd, FCAE, PEng, President, University of Waterloo.
Submissions were received from 29 institutions or groups; the group themselves visited institutions and met 23 groups in all during the course of their work.
It was entirely proper that the study group adopted as their basic strategy "that academic considerations were central to its work in the examination of the case for university status for NIHE Dublin and Limerick". Among the many issues which they examined were the teaching, research and other scholarly work undertaken by the NIHEs; the depth of scientific background and the breadth and extent of disciplines and subjects — of narrowness and broadness of academic approach — were also matters which they examined and commented upon. Other issues which were raised in submissions and in meetings with the group were analysed and fully dealt with.
The study group concluded that the NIHEs "are sufficiently scholarly to merit university status", and "the standards of scholarship are as high as one would associate with universities". In short, the study group's unambiguous findings have established that both NIHEs clearly operate at university level and fully justify the conferring of university status. Furthermore, the team recognised that the range of activities within both NIHEs encompassed not only the sciences, technology and business, but also the arts, and concluded very definitively that the National Technological University title would not, therefore, adequately reflect this comprehensive range.
Other recommendations were made which would have an effect on the overall third level education system here. Some of these recommendations would require the introduction of new legislation and I am pleased to say that this legislation is at present being prepared to give effect to the recommendation that the regional technical colleges should be given a greater degree of autonomy. The Government also set up an interdepartmental committee to undertake an in-depth examination of the overall organisation of third level education, including the form of funding and the possibilities for some rationalisation of the system.
In particular, however, the group's recommendation that both NIHE, Dublin and NIHE, Limerick, be conferred with full university status with power to award degrees, diplomas and certificates, has been given full and careful consideration by the Government culminating in their decision to accept the recommendations and introduce the proposals contained in the Bills before the House. The Government decision after careful scrutiny of the technological education report, from which I will quote later, was taken in January, and announced in January. Since then we have been dealing with the legislation and the preparation of it, culminating in the passage in the Dáil last week of these Bills and their introduction here today and I hope to see their successful passage here.
The Government are deeply conscious of the historic nature of the proposals in view of the fact that these two new universities will be the first to be established since the foundation of the State. We are also conscious of the clear benefits which will derive from the enactment of this legislation. It will convey to the international community Ireland's seriousness regarding industrial and business development in an increasingly competitive world; it will serve to emphasise the importance which Ireland attaches to excellence in learning and it will highlight the capability of Ireland's higher education sector. The establishment of the new universities represents a further underlining of Government commitment to industrial development. It is also a vote of confidence in and will be a significant help to the development of the communities in which the new universities are located.
The legislation will enhance the NIHEs' ability to develop research and academic links with European and other foreign universities, will enhance their access to research support from international sources, will increase the number and extent of student exchange programmes, a matter of considerable relevance with the prospect of the single market in 1992, and will enhance the development of credit transfer arrangements and joint teaching programmes with EC and other universities.
What is proposed, therefore, is minor amending legislation in respect of the NIHE, Limerick, Act, 1980 and the NIHE, Dublin, Act, 1980 in order to: change the titles of the institutes to universities; change the titles of the directors to presidents; confer the power to award degrees, diplomas and certificates on the new universities; amplify the definitions of the functions of the universities; give the governing bodies the authority to extend the functions of the universities, with the approval of the Minister for Education; and extend the functions of the academic councils to make recommendations to the governing bodies on the conferment of degrees, diplomas and certificates.
The authorities of the institutes and the Irish Federation of University Teachers have been consulted and they concur with the proposal to introduce the amending legislation. The main reason behind introducing simple amending legislation is to ensure that students who graduate this year will have their degrees, diplomas and certificates conferred by their respective universities. With this in view, only three amendments were made to the Bills during their passage through the Dáil last Thursday. In the general statement of intent in section 3 the words "educational" and "trade union" were added on lines 1 to 6 on page 3. I was pleased to extend the list of bodies with which the new universities should collaborate. It would be my wish that all universities should take account of and provide for all the interests and concerns of the communities they serve.
The second amendment was a minor drafting amendment to section 3 on lines 41 to 44 on page 3. In the 1980 Acts "An tÚdarás" is defined as meaning "An tÚdarás um Árd-Oideachas". The words "um Árd-Oideachas" in the original Bills circulated were, therefore, superfluous and were accordingly deleted.
The third amendment was to section 5. The words "and not less than 3 students of the University, representative of the student body" on lines 6 and 7 on page 4 were added. This lays down that students should be represented on the academic councils of the universities. Under the 1980 Acts the governing bodies were given the task of making regulations to provide for the memberships and terms of office of the academic councils. Under the internal regulations made by the governing bodies both of them provide for student representation and students are currently represented on the councils. However, given this amendment they will now have the statutory right to such representation. Indeed, I always had that in my own mind about student representatives on governing bodies. I am fully committed to the concept of student involvement and was, therefore, very pleased to accept the amendment.
As I have said, these Bills when enacted will allow students qualifying this year to be conferred with awards by the new universities. In the light of ongoing discussions within the National University of Ireland I expect that it may be necessary to examine, in a broader sense, the totality of university legislation. The legislative provisions of the new universities could be looked at in the context of any such examination. Coincidentally, last Thursday at the Question Time break I had an appointment with the NUI which was arranged some time back to discuss, inter alia, the matriculation examination and we discussed in a broad way the need for further legislation with regard to universities. I indicated to the Chancellor and the deputation that I would be very glad to look in a comprehensive way at the totality of university legislation.
I wish to pay due tribute to the National Council for Educational Awards under whose aegis the NIHEs have developed. The NCEA was closely associated with the two institutions in their very important early formative period. The acknowledgement of excellence which is the basis for this legislation is an endorsement of the quality and standing of the National Council for Educational Awards, their processes, their awards at all levels — certificate, diploma and degree — and also of the colleges and institutions which are designated institutions of NCEA.
In paying tribute to NCEA, it would be remiss of me not to advert to the presidents and provost of our distinguished universities and the generous way in which they have welcomed the Government decision and, now, these Bills. They expressed their welcome in a most tangible way, before we ever came to our decision, in admitting the presidents of the then two NIHEs to the Committee of Heads of Irish Universities.
Given the historic nature of these proposals and the important development they represent for the third level education system of the country, I am confident that this House will welcome the Bills and the Government's initiative in bringing them forward.
The titles proposed for the new universities are Ollscoil Chathair Bhaile Átha Cliath (Dublin City University) and Ollscoil Luimnigh (University of Limerick).
I commend these Bills to the House.
I welcome the legislation and I am very impressed by the succinct way in which the Minister has put these Bills into historical context. The last time the Minister was in this House we talked about the constitutional crusade and we both dwelt at some length on the historical background but did not agree. Today I agree with everything the Minister says on the historical background.
This is the first major piece of university legislation since 1908. The status being conferred on the new universities has been very well earned and is more than merited by their performance. Both have made outstanding contributions at third level and attained the highest standards of academic excellence. It came as no surprise to those of us who know what has been happening in the two institutions that the report issued under Mr. Tom Hardiman concluded as it did. It could have come to no other conclusion.
Both new universities have also set an example to other third level institutions in forging strong, meaningful links with the wider community. The Minister in the closing stages of her speech pointed out the need for all universities to be very aware of the communities they serve and to have strong links with all sectors of those communities. The NIHEs have given a very good example in this area.
We have seen over the years a broadening of the curriculum at these two institutions, a pioneering of new courses and a strong emphasis on the enormous interdependence of the academic community and the world of business, of agriculture, of trade unions and finance. There has also been an emphasis on the needs of the community which can be served through the extension of distance learning. In all these ways and many others, the institutions merit the new status which is being conferred on them.
I pay tribute to the leading role played by the respective directors of the two institutes. Dr. Edward Walsh was first into the field. Many people thought more than a decade and a half ago that he was attempting the impossible. There are many who raised an eyebrow and perhaps poured a little scorn on some of his ambitions and what some would have regarded as his pretensions at that time. Today he sees his vision fulfilled. The objectives he set himself not so many years ago are now achieving realisation in this legislation. Under his leadership the reputation of Limerick is very well established internationally, as it is nationally.
The NIHE in Dublin is, of course, more recent but it, too, has carved out for itself a very significant niche and role in the academic life of our community. Dr. Danny O'Hare is one of the most respected figures in Irish academic life and he has brought his own qualities of leadership and enthusiasm to the project which has transformed the NIHE at Glasnevin into an institution which certainly deserves the university status which will be conferred. As somebody who occasionally lectures at this institution, I have always been enormously impressed by the vibrancy of the students and their sense of commitment to their college. The quality of graduates from both Limerick and Dublin has certainly been at the highest international standard.
I congratulate the respective directors, soon to be presidents of the new universities. Without them and the sense of leadership and commitment which they have brought to the development of the two institutions we almost certainly would not be discussing this legislation today. In one sense both had great opportunities. It is perhaps far more difficult to inherit the leadership of an established 100-year-old or 400-year-old university with all its vested interests and time-encrusted ways which might not always be particularly relevant. It may well be that it is easier to establish in a greenfield situation and build from the ground up, imposing one's own vision from the earliest stage. In the early days of these two institutions the respective presidents might not have seen it quite that way. Certainly their job has been very well done.
In welcoming the Bill I have to say it is somewhat lazy in that it misses a number of opportunities. There were some indications in the Minister's speech that some of these might be addressed, but I should like to have seen a greater sense of urgency about the overall question of the restructuring of third level education. This Bill has missed a number of opportunities under several headings. It does not seek sufficiently to build upon the experience of the two institutions over the past few years. The Bill takes on board the existing structures and changes them in a minimalist way. This misses an opportunity to face up to changes in the governing structure, some of which have been pointed out by the Irish Federation of University Teachers.
The Minister says this legislation may be amended in omnibus legislation dealing with the universities in future years. That may be so, but I suspect it is a long way off. The Irish Federation of University Teachers welcome the fact that the Minister did concede on some of the points they made when the Bill was going into the Dáil. The Minister has referred to this but she confined her main task to renaming the existing institutions while waiting for omnibus legislation to introduce basic restructuring. A number of further changes could have been made by the Minister which may not now come into effect for very many years.
The points made by the Irish Federation of University Teachers, with which I agree, are threefold. There is a strong feeling that the governing bodies have a very limited representation of the academic staff of the institutions and too large a number directly appointed by the Minister. This is somewhat at variance with the position in the existing universities. There is also concern about the role of the academic council which is not seen as having a sufficiently strong and central role in the running of the affairs of the new universities. There is a request for a look at strengthening the central role of the academic council. There is also concern that the Minister has the power to reject the appointment of individual members of staff. Such a power is unusual and undesirable in the case of a university institution and it poses a very small question mark over academic freedom. It might have been worthwhile to consult a little more widely and to introduce legislation going a little further than the mere renaming of the two institutions.
My main criticism today — and it is a criticism that would be made of any Minister at this stage — is the failure to really face up to the overall structure of Irish third level education. There is no real coherence at present to the governing structures of third level education. We have, for example, the National University of Ireland with its three constituent colleges and Maynooth which lives, to a certain extent, in a world of its own, and there is Trinity, which is an almost autonomous university. There is the National Council for Education Awards and the institutions which refer to it. We now have the two new universities today. Then there is the Higher Education Authority. In all this there is an absence of coherence. There is a diversity which can often lead to wasteful duplication of resources, to empire building, which can prevent third level education developing in a way which is most suited and most at one with the overall national needs. I feel that the growth of third level structures has been ad hoc, it has reacted to various historical developments over the years. The Minister probably agrees with everything I am saying about all this.
I am delighted to find the Senator saying things which are so politically important and vibrant with which I agree. I hope when I come forward with the legislation he will be equally vocal in support of it.
The Minister can be sure of that.
The consensus of the Seanad again.
A single structure which could at least give direction to the development of third level education would be highly desirable. I do not mean a single Government structure but a structure would be very strongly representative of the various elements in third level education which could give the sort of leadership which has been lacking in the past number of years. We all know that the resources of this country are small by comparison with our European neighbours. We have poured a big proportion of our resources into the development of education. The cutbacks in third level education in the last number of years have been more savage than in any other comparable level of education. I hope the Minister will assure us today that the time of the cutbacks in third level is over and that, election or not, we are about to see the allocation of the resources to third level which were not there over the past number of years.
The question of resources is something that has to be addressed within the overall context. Throwing money at problems is not the answer to solving them. There is now a need for this overall structure. I can tell the Minister — and I am sure she knows — that there has been a great change in attitudes in third level education over the past number of years. There is now a much greater willingness to think in developmental terms, to think in terms of how the universities themselves can increase their income without damaging academic standards.
There is a much greater sense of building up a partnership with the wider community, and I do not just mean with the business community and the industrial community; I mean in terms of developments of community/university projects where the universities will go out into the community and set up what were, in the old days, the adult education courses so very well pioneered by University College Cork in the early deciades of this century. There is a tremendous desire for access to third level education amongst many people — the unemployed, people who are working at home and people who have retired. There is an enormous opportunity for the universities to build a real sense of partnership on that basis.
I was interested to hear the Minister say she will engage in discussions with the National University of Ireland on the possible restructuring of third level education. I certainly welcome that as a member of the NUI. I was not aware of the discussions, but clearly they happened last Thursday. I hope there will be a very full debate.
Just let me correct the Senator there. We met on the matriculation examination and in the course of that discussion, in a casual way, the matter was raised.
As a member of the Seanad for the National University of Ireland and as somebody who is very proud to have been elected by the graduates, I feel that it now must face up to major questions about its future. There are many people who believe that the current structures of the National University in fact inhibit the development of the individual colleges and may very well make the taking of decisions more cumbersome and more time consuming. Certainly the arrival of the two new universities should in a very real way have both Trinity and the National University facing up to this overall question of the future direction and future governing structures of third level education. I will leave that point there. I think the Minister knows the point I am making.
I can assure the Minister that whatever changes she may have in mind, whatever side of the House she will be on after the election, she will find in Fine Gael a great openness on this question. We are convinced that there is an urgent need to take a very hard look at the overall governing structures of third level education and at the role of the Higher Education Authority because I believe that, with the best will in the world, the Higher Education Authority does not have the type of powers which would be necessary if they were to play a role as a defender of third level education and directing the way such colleges should be developed.
These are some of the questions to which, when she raises them, the Minister will get a very open and informed reaction from this side of the House. There is another point which the Bill misses, and it is an important one, especially in the present context, that is, the absence of any question of representation from the graduates of the new universities in Seanad Éireann. In one way it is very difficult to defend the whole idea of university graduates having a vote to the Houses of Parliament that non-graduates do not have. It is very difficult to get any democratic justification for this particular part of our Constitution. I do not see why a graduate should have two votes when a non-graduate has only one legal vote in the elections to the Houses of Parliament.
If you were up here you would.
There is only one real justification for university representation in this House and that is that the quality of our university representatives over the years has been consistently outstanding. If we were to judge the justification for university representation then the real justification is the quality of service, the quality of contribution to debate and legislation which has come from that quarter over the 60 years of the history of this House. That alone, the sheer quality of the Senators, justifies its continuation.
We have at present three types of graduates. We have graduates of the new universities who are disenfranchised, and we have graduates of Trinity and of the National University. There is a clear inequality, in fact, there are two types of inequality. Those who have no vote at all are the least equal of all, but the vote of the graduates of the National University is worth about a quarter the vote of the graduates of Trinity College. When the Minister is bringing in the omnibus legislation she is talking about I hope she will look at the question of giving the franchise to the graduates of the new universities, possibly retrospectively — I am not sure if that is possible — and also at the question of bringing about some sort of equality of representation between the two universities. I am quite certain that if Mr. Justice Hamilton were to throw his eye over the discrepancy in the size of the constituencies there might be a constitutional could hanging over more than one election over the coming months. I would ask the Minister to take a fairly hard look at that aspect of the legislation also.
There is one further small point I would like to make before I conclude in regard to something which has caused concern among many members of Comhdháil Náisiúnta na Gaeilge, that is, the absence of any mention in the legislation of what they would see, and what I would agree with, as the general duty of the universities with respect to national aims. There is a section in the NCEA Bill which would meet their purpose, that is, that in performing its functions An tÚdarás shall bear constantly in mind the national aims of restoring the Irish language and preserving and developing the national culture and shall endeavour to promote the attainment of those aims. There is a strong feeling that the legislation at some stage may reflect this ethos, or this aspiration.
Otherwise, I welcome this legislation but I regret that the opportunity was not used to introduce more comprehensive legislation as it affects the new universities, and that there was not produced a White Paper on the future structure of third level education in Ireland.
The Minister will agree that there is a need to take a very hard look at the overall structure of third level education. She will find all parties receptive to fair minded proposals. I hope that either the Minister or George Birmingham as Minister in the next Government will make that a priority. For too long Governments have shied away from taking a hard look at third level education partly because of the absence of pressure groups and partly because it might be felt that that is a sleeping dog which is better left lying. I urge that as a priority in the national interest, with the next Government.
Once again I congratulate the two universities. I support the legislation and I congratulate the respective directors for their success in bringing their institutions to this point.
Tá an-áthas go deo ormsa an deis seo a bheith agam fáiltiú roimh an dá Bhille atá os ár gcomhair, is é sin an Bille um Ollscoil Luimnigh agus an Bille um Ollscoil Chathair Bhaile Átha Cliath. Déanaim comhghairdeas leis an Aire mar gheall ar an dá Bhille a chur os comhair an tSeanaid anois agus go mór mhór an dá Bhille a chur os comhair na Dála an tseachtain seo caite i dtreo nach gcaillfí iad, agus b'fhéidir go gcaillfí iad ar feadh tamaillín mhaith. Ar bhealach aontaím leis an Seanadóir Harte faoin mBille eile a luaigh sé ó chianaibh, an Bille um chearta na bpáistí. Ba thrua freisin nach raibh an ceann sin os ár gcomhair chomh maith. Ach gabhaim buíochas den Aire gur éirigh linn an dá Bhille seo a chur os comhair na Dála agus, dar ndóigh, tá am go leor nó beagáinín ama ar aon chuma, againn sa Seanad fós chun na cúrsaí seo a phlé.
Tá sé ráite ag an Aire faoin am a caitheadh os na 1840 aidí i leith ag plé le cúrsaí ollscoile i Luimneach agus is dócha go bhféadfaimis dul níos fuide siar ná sin, go dtí an cúigiú aois nó mar sin. It would not be relevant to back as far as the fifth century when we are talking about legislation that has been introduced now. I welcome the two Bills and I congratulate the Minister on introducing them to the Dáil last week and to the Seanad this week, so that they would not die with the dissolution of the Dáil. I congratulate the people in NIHE Limerick and those in NIHE Dublin on attaining university status in each case.
The people of Dublin are to be particularly congratulated because it must be a record in a city the size of Dublin, that they now have, if we consider Maynooth as being in the hinterland of Dublin, four full universities which are very strategically placed, with UCD in the south, new Dublin city university in the north, Trinity in the centre and Maynooth on the western hinterland. I congratulate Dr. O'Hare on the success he has had with the NIHE in Dublin which will now be called the Dublin City University.
I have particular pleasure in congratulating Dr. Walsh and NIHE Limerick on their attainment of university status. As one who does not give a lot of time and credence to nomenclature, the NIHE in Limerick and the NIHE in Dublin have already established their credentials in the students they have produced and in the excellence they have produced, so that the naming of these institutions as universities is really the icing on the cake.
Thirty years ago at a meeting of the CBS past pupils union of Sexton Street in Limerick, I was the secretary and I was instructed to call a meeting of other past pupil unions to see if we could once again after many years resurrect a committee to look for a university in Limerick. The first meeting of the combination of past pupils unions was held in Sexton Street in 1959. I pay tribute to the two unions who were to the forefront in this campaign, the CBS of Sexton Street past pupils union and Mungret past pupils union. There was support and help from other unions but these two unions had the greatest input into that campaign. It is a pleasure for me to see the secretary of that committee who worked like a Trojan for so long, Mrs. Margaret Liddy in the distinguished visitors gallery here today. I welcome her to the House and it is a fitting tribute that she should be here on such an historic occasion. That committee worked very hard. Unfortunately, its chairman, John Moloney, died only a couple of weeks ago. However, no one was more delighted than he when the announcement of the change in status was made by the Minister when she visited NIHE in Limerick early in the year. The Limerick University project committee was one of the best committees I have ever had the pleasure of serving on. The committee was united for one purpose, to establish a university in Limerick. They would not accept anything else. We ran foul of many Ministers for Education but we all stuck together, we played as a team. The committee united city and county, trade unionists, businessmen, professional and ordinary people.
I pay a special tribute here to one organisation who helped us probably more than any other, that is the ICMSA. Being a rural organisation they saw that the establishment of a university in Limerick would not alone benefit the people of Limerick city but of the whole western region and the country generally. The late John Feely was one of the great people who, through the good graces of Mrs. Liddy's husband, helped a lot. It is sad to recall that looking back over a period of 30 years I mention so many people who have died without seeing their work come to fruition. The campaign was a very intensive one. If I could have that kind of committee reinstated in present circumstances it might be of great help to me during the next couple of days.
Send them up to Athlone.
That was one of the most tremendous committees ever. They were an energetic enthusiastic committee committed to the ideal and they would not take no for an answer. In the context of the North, where the people are saying no all the time, I suppose we could say that Limerick would not take no for an answer to their cause. The campaign took place throughout the mid-western region and was taken to meetings at UCD, UCG and UCC, the heartland of what, shall we say, we thought was the opposition but many of these were very helpful in their advice later. The result of this campaign was the setting up of the Commission on Higher Education by the President, Dr. Patrick Hillery. We were very enthusiastic about this. Another person who was of tremendous help to us was Brother White who was the superior at Sexton Street CBS. He became a member of that commission.
However, the commission's report did not find favour with us because it proposed the establishment, and I am sure Senator Manning would agree with me on this, of a kind of second class college in Limerick. None of the committee was prepared to accept this. Discussions took place with the Minister for Education and it is indeed a coincidence that the announcement of the granting of university level education to Limerick in the form of the NIHE was made by the present Minister's brother, Deputy Brian Lenihan, who was then Minister for Education. On behalf of the people of Limerick and this House I would like to say that we are all delighted to see Brian faring so well at present and we hope to welcome him back very quickly to Ireland and to public affairs. It must be unique for one Minister to have established the NIHE in Limerick and for a sister of his to be here today establishing the University of Limerick. If there are any more Lenihans on the way one would never know what we would get in the future.
There is no shortage of them.
The Minister's decision at that time did not find full favour with the committee. I am sure Mrs. Liddy is listening very intensely at present but it probably was the first time that there was a little bit of dissension in the committee. Perhaps I should not say dissension, but rather "not thoroughly satisfied" or "not thoroughly dissatisfied". I think the words used by the then Minister at that time were that we were getting "something better than a university". Some people were sceptical about this but as it turned out I think people in Limerick would now say that we did get something better than a university. Perhaps it is rather ambiguous that it is now being called a university but we will not go into the logic behind the phraseology.
One of the best things the Higher Education Authority did at that time was to advertise for a director of the new institution. The person appointed of course was Edward Walsh. The Divine Spirit must have come down on the HEA because they could not have appointed a better person. He is a person of commitment, dedication, enthusiasm, competence and innovation. Perhaps after all that praise he will give me a vote in the election but this is sincerely meant.
The NIHE in Limerick began in an office in O'Connell Street. As a matter of fact quite a bit of post used to come to my own house as I was associated with the university project committee. I often took some letters to Dr. Walsh at the beginning. The office was then transferred to the site at Plassey House and Dr. Walsh was put in charge of an open field. Tremendous credit is due to him and to the planning board established at that time as well as to the staff he built up around him and to everybody involved in making the physical campus what it is today, not to talk about the excellence it has achieved in the academic world.
Might I pay tribute here also to the Department of Education and in particular to the then secretary, the late Seán MacGearailt, who was followed by the late Seán Ó Conchubhair. It was these people who picked a site that we in the project committee had never looked at. We had taken an option on a site near the Regional Hospital in Raheen and had our eye on a site on the Ennis Road. We had never thought of the actual site, as far as I can recollect, on which the NIHE or the new university is now established. The tradition of helping the NIHE, as it then was, was continued by Seán Ó Conchubhair, when he became chairman of the HEA, by Dominic O'Laoire who was secretary and later chairman of the HEA, and by Liam Ó Laighin who was secretary of the Department and now current chairman of the HEA.
When talking about the establishment of the NIHE in Limerick and its success it is only right that we should think of the many people and the many areas from which help came for its establishment and success. I will not go into the success of the NIHE in Limerick. I am sure that Dr. O'Hare will forgive me for harping so much on Limerick but there will be others who will devote most of their time to the Dublin site rather than to the Limerick site.
From the beginning there was such commitment, dedication and purpose and in particular such innovation, behind the work being done in the NIHE in Limerick that it had to succeed. It was up against the established universities and therefore it had to attract students. This it has done. If I recall the figures correctly, the figure this year is something around 5,000 and growing. This will be a headache for the Minister for Education, of course, given that third level numbers are still growing but I am sure she will be able to achieve success in the same way she has achieved so many other successes during the past few years.
As I said, I will not go into the academic and innovative success of the NIHE in Limerick and, correspondingly, the NIHE in Dublin but one of the tremendous things to happen at the site was the establishment of the Plassey technological park. From the beginning Dr. Walsh, his fellow academics and governing body, which was formed following the introduction of legislation to establish the NIHE, set about marrying the academic life to the business and commercial life. I do not think there should be divorce in that type of marriage. Both can live in harmony provided each side respects the other. Academic standards must be maintained and attained. University education or any education is not there solely to help industry and commerce, it is there to complement it. Both sides should work together in harmony and unison for the good of the community and the country in general.
I am a little bit sorry — I hope Dr. Walsh will recall this — to see the name of the National Institute of Higher Education leaving us. I suppose it will live for a while but there was great difficulty in Limerick with regard to the name. As I said, the university project committee wanted nothing else except a university. Many names were put up to the Higher Education Authority with regard to the name of the institution. It was at a meeting of the Higher Education Authority with people from the NIHE in Limerick over lunch — which I suppose is the best time to think of things — that it was finally agreed that the National Institute of Higher Education would be the name. The words "institution" and "institute" had been bandied about but these did not appeal to any of the people in Limerick. Then the word "national" was inserted. This got over some of the difficulties.
We thought, and Dr. O'Hare will forgive me for this, that there would be only one but it is only right that we do not confine progress to any particular area. It is to be welcomed that both NIHE colleges, Limerick and Dublin, are working hand in hand for the good of all.
Unlike Senator Manning, I was glad that the legislation was minimal. It took a long time to get it through the Dáil. If it had been controversial, at this time it might not have gone through and we might have had to wait until the new Dáil assembled. While I agree with some of the sentiments expressed by Senator Manning, it was well that the Bill got through. It should be said that the Minister had come to Limerick to announce the setting up of the university long before any of us ever thought that an election was in the air, or hoped that there would or would not be an election, as the case might be.
There is reference in the Bill to courses of study or instruction in such fields as the governing body may deem appropriate. That is a very wide clause. It is welcome and gives the governing body great power to continue in their innovative way, if they see the need for courses. I would emphasise that the university here has the power to grant degrees, diplomas or certificates. There would be areas that would not necessarily need degree or diploma courses. In whatever areas the governing body see fit to have more course added, they have that power.
I also notice on page 3, between lines 15 and 20, that the university could grant degrees, diplomas, or certificates, or other educational awards to such other colleges or institutions as the governing body may approve. That is a very important clause. It opens up the question of recognising courses — although they are already recognised — of regional technical colleges. This may be so even perhaps in places where there are no regional technical colleges. Perhaps degree, or diploma, or certificate courses could be recognised by both universities. The Bill for NIHE Dublin is similar to that for NIHE Limerick. This is a very good omnibus clause which will help to establish certain courses in any area throughout the country. I welcome this very much.
I am glad also that the Minister may, on the recommendation of the governing body and after consultation with an tÚdarás, by order, assign to the institute such additional functions as the Minister thinks fit. The important part there is "on the recommendation of the governing body", which leaves the initiative to that body. To take away initiative from any institution is to kill it. Even though these are only amendments to the 1980 Bill, this initiative is allowed to continue.
One matter on which we might be able to get the Minister to agree has been mentioned by Senator Manning, that is, with regard to the Irish language. I was a little disappointed that there was no actual reference to the Irish language in the Bill. I had taken it that it was mentioned in the NIHE Act of 1980, but it seems that I was mixing up the NCA and the NIHE Acts. Under that paragraph — I know that it is late now for an amendment — the Minister might decide, on the recommendation of the governing body, to have inserted something like what was inserted for the NCA Act, or the Act on higher education. The latter says that in performing its functions an tÚdarás shall bear constantly in mind——
On a point of information, may I ask if Senator Bromell has read the amendment I have put down in that regard?
I am sorry, I have not.
Senator Bromell will be able to support that amendment.
I am delighted if Senator Murphy has put down such an amendment. Perhaps I am becoming cynical at this stage about the definite use of such amendments to the Irish language, but I still think that any university institution legislation should, at least, have a clause saying that the university will give due recognition to the Irish language. I would respectfully suggest, if the clause is in line with what is in the higher education or the NCA Act, that the Minister look favourably on it. If not, it might be possible to have it put in with reference to page 3, line 42. In these times particularly, when people might think that there is no need to be bothered about the Irish language, or Irish culture, and that we should be more European oriented, it is only right to remember that the more Irish we are, the more European we can be. We were never more European than when we were so Irish in the fifth, sixth, seventh and eighth centuries, and in the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries, particularly, we had much more communication for political reasons, with the continent of Europe than we have today. I hope that the Minister will be able to facilitate us in this respect.
I thank the Minister for introducing the Bill and, from the point of view of the people of Limerick, I thank her for being so conscious of the need to have university status conferred on NIHE Limerick. The Minister has been most enthusiastic and helpful in regard to the whole situation in Limerick, as I can well vouch for as registrar of another college in Limerick, Mary Immaculate College of Education. I take this opportunity of thanking her for all the help and encouragement she has given to that institution in approving of its programme for diversification into other degree and diploma areas and so forth. With the university and other colleges in Limerick, for example, Thomond College and my own college, Mary Immaculate College and the Limerick College of Art, Commerce and Technology, Limerick has blossomed in these days of the eighties into a place of education, of dul chun cinn, mar a déarfá, nár mheasamar a bheadh riamh ann nuair a thosnaíomar ar an mbeartas seo i dtosach ag iarraidh ollscoil a fháil do Luimneach. Is dóchas, na daoine a thosaigh an rud sin timpeall 30 bliain ó shin, go raibh dóchas agus muinín acu go dtiocfadh an lá ach b'fhéidir i rith na mblianta seo go dtáinig an t-éadóchas go minic go mór mhór nuair a tháinig an diúltú, go mór mhór nuair nach bhfuaireamar an rud a bhí uainn i dtosach, ach is cúis an-áthais dúinn go bhfuilimid anseo inniu ag fáiltiú roimh an dá Bhille seo. Tugann sé an-sásamh dom féin, mar a dúirt mé i dtosach, go raibh baint agam leis an rud ón tús, agus níor mheasas riamh go mbeinn anseo mar Sheanadóir ag fáiltiú roimh an reachtaíocht seo agus ag tabhairt lámh chúnta i dtreo is go mbeadh sé in a dhlí sar i bhfad.
Like the Government and the Fine Gael spokesmen, I, too, welcome the Bill very warmly. I should like to congratulate the directors of NIHE Dublin and NIHE Limerick, who are with us today and who soon will be the presidents of their respective universities. I also welcome the Minister's speech. For a change, it was not the usual bland and predictable survey. I would regard it as quite provocative in some respects.
Senator Manning indicated that he was totally in agreement with the historical context. Well, I am almost in agreement. There were one or two points to which I take exception, the notable lack of any reference to the longest established seat of learning, that founded by St. Finbarr by the banks of the Lee, for which there is very strong historical evidence, going back to the 6th century.
What about Clonmacnoise?
That must have been an offshoot.
A higher option.
More seriously, in her speech the Minister executed quite a considerable tour de force in surveying what she rightly called the thorny problem of the university question in the 19th century and mentioning various stages, without once referring to the main characters of the drama who are, of course, the Roman Catholic Hierarchy who were determined that there would be no third level education for Catholics unless they could control it. I congratulate the Minister there on a skilful piece of omissio veri which could be described as Hamlet without the bishops. Thankfully, their lordships are now restricted more or less to their proper sphere and the laity has come into its own.
In another part of the Minister's speech I would, if I were sufficiently cranky, take exception to the implication that somehow the existing universities do not sufficiently take account of the interests and concerns of the communities they serve, that somehow this is something novel regarding the two institutes. I would certainly resent any implication of that kind, speaking on behalf of my own university college, which has, as Senator Manning so graciously observed, been a pioneer force in adult education and which is very closely connected with the trade union and other social and economic movements in the city and community which it services.
However, the elevation of status of these two institutes to that of universities is not only a matter of congratulation for themselves, but really they enhance the status of learning in the country as a whole and they enhance the respect for education in the country as a whole. Anything that underlines and draws public attention to the importance of third level learning cannot but be a matter for rejoicing by all of us. That is not to say that there were not some private and public discussions when the news was announced that the two NIHEs were to be universities.
There was some discussion about the report of the international study group. The international study group, without any doubt at all, unequivocally recommended the status of university for the two institutes and dismissed any suggestion that the institutes could be described as technological universities.
I notice with some interest that in the current prospectus for NIHE, Dublin, in an introduction by its distinguished director, there is a description of the institution as virtually a "technological university". I would also say that some of the discussion in the Minister's speech about the nature of a university and what is a universitas is open to debate. I do not fully accept that the traditional idea of the universitas being a wide range of disciplines is somehow out of date.
What distinguishes a university from any other kind of third level institute is not the range of its disciplines but the spirit in which it approaches learning, the ethos of that particular institution, the pursuit of learning and the pursuit of research as fields of inquiry which do not have be justified by reference to any practical application. I would submit that that is the irreducible essence of the definition of a university.
To some extent one could argue once again that the humanities which, by tradition, are the premier departments of universities have rather a different priority in the NIHEs of Limerick and Dublin. I have here a very colourful — I may say this wistfully, looking at some of our own rather drab literature — prospectus from NIHE, Limerick in which the College of Humanities is relegated to the last pages. It is quite obvious that the College of Humanities, excellent though it is, subserves the practical and applied purpose of the institute. That is a very significant illustration of the different ethos that characterises the national institutes from the traditional universities.
These are matters of debate and argument and I do not mean to be ungracious. It is possible that the Minister and the international study group could have said to themselves, well probably the most famous third level institutes which are not technical universities in the United States — Caltec, Massachusetts Institute of Technology — lose nothing in terms of status, regard and ability to do business by not being formally called universities. That is another debatable point.
However, the time for argument is past. It would be churlish and begrudging indeed to dwell overmuch on the pros and cons and it might well be imputed to me as sour grapes to go on at some length over this. I wish to join in the tributes paid by my colleagues to the directors and staff of the two institutes and to the work that has made this happy outcome possible. Those of us in the traditional university sphere are extremely impressed by the work which has reached such a happy conclusion. I am the only university Senator remaining from the far off days of 1980 when the original Bills went through the House, when the Minister's predecessor, Deputy Wilson, took the statutory provisions through the House. Looking at my own contribution in a not, I hope, too narcissistic approach the other day — I am always taken by what I said eight years ago — I noted I was not the only Senator on that occasion to draw attention to what seemed to us then to be the excessive amount of ministerial interference in the formal setting up of the institutes. The point I made was that if they are to be given formal institute status then surely it is time that the apron strings were cut and that they were given the same kind of autonomy.
Let us not be sexist.
(Interruptions.)
Their shoelaces should not have to be tied for them any more. It was a point which we emphasised because some of us were disturbed by the prospect of the Minister interfering at every hand's turn in the proceedings of these institutes in the appointment of the staff. I recall that the Minister could literally decide what price to charge for the admission of the public to a lecture under the auspices of the institute. We drew attention to that kind of petty interference. Of course we were concerned for our own future in making those reservations because we were afraid that this is what the Minister would have in mind were we to attempt any revision of our own status. The international study group echoed some of the reservations which I expressed then and which I still feel because in chapter 6, section 3, they talked about the need for changes relating principally to the relaxation of the ministerial control in certain respects. I see there some instance of the type of concern I am talking about.
Senator Manning went on to argue for reform in the nature of the academic council and reform in the composition of the governing body. I subscribe to those views. It is my hope that the governing body will be constituted on something like the composition of our governing body in University College, Cork, which, at first sight, looks ramshackle but works very well. It draws a great deal of moral sanction from the fact that it does represent a wide range of community representation. It may be that my concern is misplaced. It has been suggested to me that in the interim since 1980 the ministerial powers of interference, in effect, have not been operated, that the institutes have worked with virtual autonomy and that they have not complained about the degree of Government interference. I would like to think that that is so. I take it that the directors were consulted in the drafting of these Bills and that they are reasonably satisfied that they have not experienced the kind of interference which we in 1980 were so worried about.
I should like to point out some of the implications of the establishment of the new universities for the university structure in the country. Senator Manning and the Minister referred to the discussions taking place at NUI level about the implications for the NUI of the new universities. Indeed, the Senate of the National University is to devote a special meeting to the impact of the new legislation on the fortunes of the NUI. The Senate will be considering this as a matter of urgency. There are two levels here: what will be the impact on the National University of Ireland, and what will the impact be on the individual colleges? University College Dublin, doubtless, must be concerned about its own self-image in the context of two other universities in the metropolitan area with the style and status of universities while UCD, the largest third level institution by far, remains a university college with all the connotations of subordination that that implies. I am sure that that is a matter of concern for University College Dublin and I have no doubt that that will lead to agonising reappraisal by UCD of its status.
In Cork, to be totally honest, we have been thinking quite a lot about the implications for us of the fact that NIHE Limerick is now to be the University of Limerick. It would be ostrich-like on our part to pretend that that will have no impact on us. Indeed, irrespective of the intrinsic merit of the institute in Limerick, soon to be a university, apart from its high status and its calibre, there is also the additional fact that it is, through its chief executive, first rate in projecting its own image. I enviously look at the splendid prospectus and I can see students leafing through it and asking, "why cannot the traditional universities produce something like that?" The publicity, some of it understandably political, surrounding the announcement of the new universities has given the new University of Limerick an image in the public mind which in itself is a challenge to us in University College Cork. Obviously, we are a bit concerned about that.
One thing that I am worried about is that all the emphasis on relevance, on application, on technology, on Europe and on satisfying markets tends to downgrade the traditional type of university, tends to make them appear dated, fuddy duddy or universities that cannot be justified because of the results of their learning are not immediately and in every case applicable. There is a psychological climate here in which the traditional universities have had to go on the defensive. We are very much aware of that in Cork.
I should like to make it clear, as we have done by formal resolution of our governing body, that UCC warmly congratulate its brother or sister, or whatever the neuter counterpart is, in Limerick, that we are pleased the change is taking place. Our ideal is of close co-operation between UCC and the new University of Limerick and there should be no doubt about that. The director is aware of that. At the same time, we must look to our laurels. We propose to advertise the genuine wares we have. We do not propose to allow a part of the market, let us say somewhere in the mid-province which, undoubtedly, for the moment is attracted by the glamorous prospect of the University of Limerick, to drift entirely to our new confrere and competitor. We are, while remaining extremely friendly and co-operative, determined to maintain our status, our premier status, as Munster's chief seat of learning.
That is chauvinistic, to say the least.
The tone of the debate so far has been extremely chauvinistic in the direction of Limerick. After all, Cork people have been described as people for whom an inferior complex means that they are as good as everybody else. We are determined to point, once again, to the motto we have, lonad Bhairre Scoil na Mumhan, and make it a latter day reality.
I should like to return to the emphasis on technology and so on. I have said that all the hype nowadays tends to downgrade the traditional type of university. Part of that is to suggest that somehow the whole world of high technology and so on is something new that has been brought into existence by the new types of institutes as if the traditional universities had not pioneered these departures, as if we in UCC had not been pioneers in electrical engineering and micro-electronics. Indeed, the distinguished Director of NIHE, Limerick, is an alumnus of that type of educational background. I am amazed at the rapidity with which all this development has taken place. The Government of 1967-68 were talking about a new university structure, about the break-up of the NUI and, shortly afterwards, the 1973-77 Coalition Government announced that Cork would have an independent university. Those things were in the air so long ago and now, here we are virtually in 1992, and the NUI and UCC still maintain their traditional status.
I read the other day that in my speech in 1980 I expressed the hope that there would soon be reorganisation of the NUI because, as I said then, the smell of decay was palpable in 49 Merrion Square. If that was so in 1980 I must say we have been, like Charles II, an unconscionable time dying, because we are still there. This is partly because the restructuring of universities has been pretty low on the Government agenda and partly because we do not know what we want.
Exactly.
I agree. We simply have not made up our minds about what we want. The truth is that we in UCC and the NUI as a whole are afraid that any legal change in our institutions will mean a diminishing or our traditional autonomy. We cherish very dearly our power to make statutes, for example — whether this is more apparent than real I am not sure — and we do not want the kind of university legislation which would change that, put us under the control of the Minister and so on.
Back in the forties Alfred O'Rahilly — perhaps the most impressive university head of his day and he will figure very large in the history of universities in this century in Ireland — was very much against the break-up of the national university precisely for that reason. Living in a decade where there was so much emphasis on the power of the State, so much fear of the power of the State, he was afraid that any change would be a change for the worse, any change would be a change for control by Government. We still have something of that mentality. We are reluctant to put our traditional standing at risk. As I said already, maybe our fears are exaggerated and perhaps ministerial control is really only a dead letter.
I notice that the Minister in her speech hints at forthcoming legislation. I got the impression from reading that sentence that perhaps when the time comes to make Cork University an independent university there may be no more in question than a simple amending Bill, a change of nomenclature, which indeed this Bill is, that we can retain intact our traditional autonomy, or at least I hope so, and that only minimal amendment to the 1908 legislation could transform the university structure in this country.
I want to say something about the implications of these Bills for university representation in Seanad Éireann. As the Minister will recall, in 1979 there was the Seventh Amendment of the Constitution Bill. That provided for the replacement of the present system of three Trinity and three NUI people by six seats to be apportioned by law to graduates without any specification. That amendment was passed without any great enthusiastic interest on the part of the people of Ireland and the position now is that constitutionally, as I understand it, these six seats in Seanad Éireann can, by law, be apportioned in any way the Government decide. In 1979 during the passage through Seanad Éireann of the Seventh Amendment to the Constitution Bill, the Minister at that time, Deputy Wilson, hoped that these changes would be brought about very quickly. In other words, instead of the present three NUI and three Dublin University seats we would have a new system of apportioning the six seats. He thought that this should be a matter of urgency. The date was 31 May 1979, ten years ago yesterday.
1 June.
Does this not recall the story of the scholars at the Celtic Congress where the Hispanist asked his Gaelic counterpart what was the Gaelic term for Mañana and the Gaelic scholar replied: “I can think of several definitions in the Gaelic language for Mañana but none of them conveys the same sense of urgency”. This is our fault, and I freely concede that. I would say that the six Senators who grace these benches are in no hurry to have their status changed but if these seats are justified at all — and Senator Manning made a fulsome apologia for our existence here, which modesty would forbid me to emulate — and we examine the Official Report of the debates of Seanad Éireann and ignore the clowning which takes place sometimes on the Order of Business, I believe there is an impressive record there, si monumentum requiris, circumspice or tolle, lege or whatever the phrase is.
In fairness I have to say there is no justification for the present situation. The question is: is a graduate vote justifiable at all? Senator Manning raised questions about the whole élitism of this matter — why should a graduate of the NUI or Dublin University have an additional franchise to elect to the Seanad as well as the Dáil in his capacity as an ordinary citizen? Of course, the anomaly does not stop there. If I were a county councillor, a graduate of UCC, and maybe even a graduate of TCD as well, and an outgoing Senator, then I would not only have a Dáil vote but I would have several votes for Seanad Éireann.
You would have a lot of friends then, Senator.
More than I have now, a Chathaoirligh. There are anomalies there but perhaps Seanad Éireann itself is an anomaly. I suggest that the graduate vote for these six seats is no more élitist than the county council votes for the 40 seats, or whatever number there are.
I will take exception there; they have gone to the people.
They have gone to the people but not to have a special élitist vote to elect Seanad Éireann.
They have put themselves before the people.
Moreover, if I may press the point, we may be élitist but no more so than panels which are much more nominally vocational than we are. After all, the university seats are the only part of Seanad Éireann which I believe fulfil the spirit of the original vocational intent of the Chamber.
The main point I want to make is that reform is now inescapable in this matter. If university representation is to be maintained in this House then it must extend not only to the graduates of the new universities in Limerick and Dublin but to all third level graduates, regional technical colleges and so on. I can see no justification if one is to have a vote based on some kind of alleged superior wisdom or learning then for sheer historical reasons to give it to some and to withhold it from others. When that reform is made it will finally level the ridiculous anomaly whereby the University of Dublin has the same number of representatives as a much larger institution, particularly now that the Dublin University, can no longer take shelter in the outdated pretext that it has a particular type of ethos which serves the country in a certain kind of way. Trinity College, Dublin, is now as much a national university as the NUI or the new universities in Limerick and Dublin. Whatever special ethos it has is gone, and perhaps that is no bad thing. Certainly there is no justification for the claim that TCD should continue to have an overweighted representation in this House. All these matters will arise sooner or later, and perhaps sooner rather than later. It is a piece of reform which, whether or not the Minister had this in mind when these Bills were drafted, will have to be considered very soon.
I shall be moving an amendment on Committee Stage — apparently Senators Manning and Bromell were unaware of that amendment — and I shall talk more about it at that stage. Meanwhile, I want to renew my congratulations to the two universities and their distinguished directors. I welcome the Bill most warmly.
I should like to welcome the Minister to the House. I am sure her visit will be a brief one. Having performed so outstandingly in a difficult ministry I am sure it will not be long before she is adequately rewarded for her efforts. I am reminded that, when I was an undergraduate at UCG, the late Donogh O'Malley came down to us one evening in the Aula Maxima and handed us a grant; it was a large amount in those days of perhaps £0.5 million. He had the pleasant audacity to suggest that a doctorate might be conferred on him for having done so. Hopefully it will not be too long before some new university drops the mantle of an honorary doctorate around the Minister's delicate shoulders.
I want to be doctor, doctor——
Well the Minister might too; who knows. I should like to welcome to the gallery a highly intelligent young man of great vision and extraordinary——
Senator Lydon, I do not think it is in order to refer to people in the gallery.
Well, then, I will not refer to him. However, I will say that, following this debate this evening and the appendage of the President's signature to the two Bills, he, like Doctor Walsh — that is, Doctor O'Hare — will be transformed from being the head of an institute to being president of a university.
I congratulate the Minister on her introductory remarks and, in particular, her historical sketch on the development of universities here leading to the introduction of these two Bills. I suppose new challenges produce new responses, that the old adage —tempora mutantur nos et mutamur in illis— applies as much to universities as to people. I wish also to endorse the general welcome of these two Bills by other Members and to compliment the Minister and the Government on their introduction.
These new universities, as the National Institute of Higher Education — have introduced an added dynamism to higher education. They have helped in emphasising the importance and national youthfulness of the interaction between business and higher education, and between industry and higher education. Indeed, the international study group to which the Minister referred emphasised how important and defensible such a stance was, and is, even in academic terms in their statement:
The study group takes the view that there is no inherent conflict between what is useful and what is scholarly.
The conferring of the university title and functions on the National Institutes of Higher Education will facilitate them in developing further this and other important elements of their remit. Their already successful participation in the ERASMUS and COMETT programmes of the EC will be strengthened by the provisions of these Bills. Their need, as National Institutes of Higher Education, to explain themselves to foreigners in universities and industries alike, will be removed. That had been a debilitating and unnecessary burden on them. I spoke recently to a distinguished foreign visitor who asked me what is a NIHE? I had tremendous difficulty in explaining to him exactly what it was. It is truly remarkable that these institutes have done so well notwithstanding their ill-understood titles.
In endorsing and supporting these Bills I am conscious that we are endorsing and recognising considerable achievements in teaching and research spread over a broad range of activities and disciplines. The breadth of the National Institutes of Higher Education programmes can be misleading. I use their full title because I do not like the abbreviated version — NIHE. The breadth of their programmes can be misleading, in that a simple interpretation of their titles could indicate a narrowness of focus and content whereas the reality is they are extraordinarily broad. I might cite the example of the degree in accounting and finance at the National Institute of Higher Education in Dublin. It is a programme which, at first glance, appears quite narrow. However, on further examination, it becomes evident that it contains economics, law, my own subject, psychology, statistics, languages and sociology in addition to the other mainstream business subjects. Indeed these and other programmes conducted at the National Institutes of Higher Education reflect Newman's view of a university curricular structures — that branches are not isolated and independent of one another but together form a whole or a system. Not being large universities, each discipline is not represented by an individual department. That has its advantages in that the National Institutes of Higher Education have inter-disciplinary schools as a basic element of their structures, again reflecting Newman's view. The other humanities-based degrees — European studies, languages and marketing, communications and journalism are further testimony to the breadth of the National Institutes of Higher Education.
If I had any reservations about the Bills it might be about the names of the relevant universities. I agree that the title — University of Limerick — is a good title for that university there because there is not one located in that city already. But in Dublin we shall have three universities henceforth with Dublin forming part of their titles. We will have University College, Dublin, the University of The Most Holy Trinity — often referred to as Dublin University — and now Dublin City University. However, if everybody else is happy with those titles I will not quibble with them.
It is nice to see Dublin, and the country as a whole, become a centre for learning once again with the establishment of these new universities. Whereas we may never be an island of saints, we might perhaps be an island of scholars.
As Senator Murphy was speaking, I remembered the Greek phrase — the unexamined life is not worth living for man. Is it not wonderful to see so many young people examining life, attending university, once again establishing our reputation for learning that might go abroad.
Therefore it is for that reason I welcome and support these excellent Bills. I wish these new universities well and hope they have bright, successful futures.
I merely wanted to say that I will give way to Senator Kennedy who has been waiting all morning to contribute.
Is mian liom ar dtús fáilte a chur roimh na Billí seo an Bille um Ollscoil Luimnigh, 1989, agus an Bille um Ollscoil Bhaile Atha Cliath 1989, Billí a bhfuil sé de chuspóir acu dhá ollscoil nua a bhunú.
In an important international report published in 1988 entitled Innovation Policy in Ireland the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development stated:
Modern development relies more and more on investment in brains rather than investment in fixed assets.
It is in the context of that independent and objective report that I welcome the introduction of these two Bills to establish two new universities, one in Limerick and the other in Dublin, rendering them the first universities to be established since the foundation of this State.
Of course it can be argued — as did the Minister for Education here this morning in the course of her introductory remarks — that the monasteries of Ireland were the precursors of the mediaeval universities as seats of learning and scholarship. Therefore, it is not surprising — as the Minister pointed out — that attempts were made to establish a university in Dublin in the early part of the fourteenth century. Thus the inchoate university of Saint Patrick was established by a Papal Bull of Pope Clement V in the city of Dublin. Although there is evidence that lectures were delivered and that there was a formal conferring of degrees, there appears to be little evidence of activity on the part of that university after the year 1320.
In 1465 a parliament held in Drogheda, presided over by Thomas, the Eighth Earl of Desmond, passed an Act to the effect that there be a university in the town of Drogheda. Nothing came of that project. In 1475 and again in 1568 there were further attempts made to establish universities in Dublin but those attempts failed to come to frution. Notwithstanding those early unsuccessful attempts, university education in Ireland has had a distinguished history. Ireland's oldest university — the University of Dublin or Trinity College, Dublin — was established under a Royal Charter by Queen Elizabeth I in 1592. In 1845, Pierse Shannon, the Mayor of Limerick, led a delegation to London where they met with Sir Robert Peel and Sir James Graham and presented their case for the setting up of a university in Limerick. However, in that same year, the Queen's colleges were founded in Cork, Galway and Belfast and in 1854, a few year later, Cardinal Newman founded the Catholic University. In 1882 the Catholic University was recognised as University College, Dublin. In 1908 the Irish Universities Act established the Federal National University of Ireland with constituent colleges in Dublin, Cork and Galway. Two years later in 1910 Saint Patrick's College, Maynooth, which was founded in 1795, became a recognised college of the National University of Ireland. However, Limerick was not provided for in the 1908 legislation and in the following years the case for a university for Limerick was developed and was made convincingly by many organisations, leading to the establishment of the Limerick University Project Committee in that historic year of 1959.
I would like to take this opportunity and to join with the other Senators, and Senator Bromell in particular, to pay tribute to that committee which was ably led by its chairman, the late Johnny Moloney and his secretary, Margaret Liddy, and a host of other people, who contributed so well and showed such vision, determination and dedication, as they advanced and promoted the idea of a university for Limerick. Their work, of course, was rewarded in 1969 when the then Minister for Education, Deputy Brian Lenihan announced the setting up of NIHE, Limerick.
In 1970 Dr. Edward Walsh was appointed director and chairman of the planning board and in that same year the campus at Plassey was purchased. The appointment, as has been indicated by Senator Bromell, of Dr. Edward Walsh was an inspired and, I believe, a wonderful choice. I would like to take the opportunity of joining with the other Senators in congratulating Dr. Edward Walsh and all associated with the institution in Limerick. I also congratulate the President of NIHE, Dublin, Dr. Danny O'Hare, and all associated with that institution for all they have done over these past years in advancing the cause of third level education in Ireland.
The planning board adopted Europe as the academic planning theme and they decided to build the academic and management structures on the North American university model. The underlying goals and philosophies of the Limerick college are well summed up in the following extract from a recent report from that college, and I quote:
The NIHE mission is similar to that of other technological universities. From the outset it was the planning board's task to create in Ireland a new kind of university institution, relevant to the times and to the nation's needs, where students would be educated to the highest levels in the application as well as in the acquisition of knowledge. The Planning Board believes that professional competence is best fostered by a coupling of teaching and research and attention to real world problems.
I would have wished that Senator Murphy was here now to see the balance. There is no downgrading of the humanities of NIHE, Limerick. There is a coupling of the humanities with the need for technology and research. Thus, today in the University of Limerick education and related research continue to be a central purpose with relevance to the practical world as a guiding principle. In 1972 the then Taoiseach, Jack Lynch, officially opened NIHE, Limerick and the first 100 students were admitted. In 1974 NIHE, Dublin was established by the Government which was led by Liam Cosgrave and it was specifically stated that NIHE, Dublin should be, and I quote:
a recognised college of the National University of Ireland with a capacity to envolve into a constitutent college or to become an autonomous degree awarding institution.
The first component of the phase I complex of NIHE, Limerick was planned and approved for funding by the World Bank and was officially opened by the then Taoiseach, Liam Cosgrave, in 1975. The second component of the phase I complex was officially opened by the then Taoiseach, Dr. Garret FitzGerald in 1985.
Following an assessment by an international team in 1983, the European Investment Bank decided to finance this important project. That decision was, I believe, of particular significance because it was the first higher educational project which the bank deemed acceptable for financing anywhere in the European Communities. Subsequently, the Commission of the European Communities announced that it would make available a European Regional Development Fund grant of £7.5 million towards the cost of this project. NIHE courses were designed from the outset with general features new to Ireland, many of them based on successful experience in the United States, including modular-credit structures which facilitate continuous assessment. An important ingredient of the degree programme is, of course, co-operative education, under which all students are obliged to spend periods of employment in appropriate areas of industry, business and the professions during the course of the four year bachelor degree programme.
In pursuing its mission, the University of Limerick recognises — and this is important for Senator Murphy to realise — that an appropriate balance should be struck between the sciences and the humanities. Thus, students avail of the modular-credit system to undertake a portion of their studies outside their major field and faculty recruitment and development policies are directed towards achieving an appropriate balance between the academic and the applied. Some 98 per cent of students are placed in employment during the degree programme and the University of Limerick works with over 900 employers in placing students. Indeed, I think it is interesting to recall here today that over 96 per cent of Limerick's graduates are placed within six months after graduation, 85 per cent go directly into employment and 11 per cent go on for further study.
While basic research is considered essential, so also is the application of knowledge to real world problems. Thus, while education and related research are the principal functions of the University of Limerick it is recognised that the University's resources and expertise can make a special contribution to the economic and social development of the country as a whole and, indeed, particularly to the Limerick and Shannon side region. This role is made more concrete in the establishment of the Plassey Technological Park, again a first in Ireland and a first for Limerick, which is being developed on a site of 600 acres around the University of Limerick.
State and private sector organisations combine to provide the physical and support infrastructure for international investment in high-tech manufacturing, indigenous high-tech start-up companies and international service businesses. In short, the park provides an environment of enterprise and research on and around the University of Limerick which stimulates students and supports interaction between the faculty and their counterparts in industry and business and in the professions. Indeed, the University of Limerick has significantly contributed to the location of international investment and development and high technology industries. Of course, we would welcome more of that.
Debate adjourned.