It is intended that we take items Nos. 1 and 2 today and that we take all Stages of both these items.
Order of Business.
Is the Order of Business agreed?
The Order of Business will be vehemently opposed today, but before giving the reasons I join with the Cathaoirleach in welcoming the three new Members to the House. I also congratulate those from this House who have moved to the other House. Like the Cathaoirleach, I wish them a lengthy stay in the lower House, and I would ask the Chair to use her influence to turn that aspiration into a reality.
It is very difficult to say this in the very uncertain situation in which we find ourselves, not knowing whether we will face one or two elections, but I learned with regret that Senator Willie Ryan will not be contesting the next election to the Seanad. On behalf of the Fine Gael Party I simply put on record our appreciation of his contribution to this House over the last quarter of a century or more. Senator Ryan has always been a person of the highest integrity and courtesy and he has personified all that is best in this House. Certainly, this House will be the poorer for his absence from it.
Senators
Hear, hear.
At this stage I must say why I am vehemently opposing the Order of Business today. To ask us to take two major pieces of legislation through all Stages on the same day is simply not acceptable. To do so when this House has been depleted through the election of 15 of its Members to the lower House is to ask us to process through legislation in an incomplete Chamber. It was never intended that the House should be used in this way. The shortage of Members is largely on this side of the House. Our environmental spokesman, for example, was elected to the Dáil and we have not reappointed someone to that brief. We do not have anyone appointed to look after the Building Societies Bill. In the current situation it would be unreal and unfair to ask someone to take on that brief at short notice.
As well as that we are meeting today in the middle of the Seanad campaign. That is a time which is not suitable for the reflection and detailed consideration which these Bills require. Never before has this House been asked in the midst of an election campaign to process major legislation, to complete two Bills on the same day. It is simply not acceptable certainly on this side of the House and it is bringing the Seanad into disrepute.
We are also opposing the Order of Business today because of the legal and constitutional uncertainty within which we are operating. At the moment we have a caretaker Government. Our reading of the Constitution is that the Government have the duty to carry out certain functions but they are very limited and our advice is that the Government do not have the right to process legislation. They are not doing so and would not attempt to do so in the other House. Our legal advice which has been of a consistently higher quality than that obtaining on the Government side is that we are meeting under a constitutional cloud given the presence of an acting Government who do not have the right to process legislation through this House today. Before we move on, I would like to see the legal advice upon which the decision of the Leader of the House and the Government to call us here today was based.
For all those reasons we will be vehemently opposing the entire Order of Business today.
Mr. O'Toole
I agree with all that Senator Manning has just said. I would also place on record my appreciation of the courteous and tolerant relationship. T have always had with Senator Willie Ryan during my time as co-ordinator of the Independent group. I regret that the Senator is not going forward again. We have basic philosophical differences on matters of policy but in dealing with Senator Willie Ryan, I have always found him to be honourable, reliable and courteous. I would place firmly on record my regret that he will not be in the House the next time round.
I find this cynical misuse of this House today to be most objectionable. I know the Cathaoirleach will take umbrage at this but the matter being allowed on the Adjournment is not a matter that should be seen as an adjournment matter at all. It is not a matter over which a Minister has power or authority. It is a cynical attempt to allow a partisan approach and discussion to influence what is happening.
Could we get back to the Order of Business?
Mr. O'Toole
I would like to put on record that I find it totally un-acceptable——
You have done so
Mr. O'Toole
——that priority was not given to another matter put down by another Member of the House. Secondly, I think it was very cynically allowed through in order to influence what is happening outside the House and to allow the Government side to make certain noises here this afternoon. It amounts to no more than that.
(Interruptions.)
No interruptions, please.
Mr. O'Toole
You will notice, a Chathaoirligh, there are interruptions coming from the far side of the House and that they always begin over there. I would prefer if people were allowed to articulate their point of view. It should be indicated that they will be given the opportunity to speak if they have anything rational to put forward.
(Interruptions.)
Senator O'Toole to continue.
Mr. O'Toole
Since Christmas, time and again we have raised with the Leader of the House the need to bring legislation before us. We had major rows here on three occasions when we called for extra sittings of the House to deal with the legislation on hand. The last time we discussed this matter, I listed the legislation that remained to be dealt with, including the two Bills we are faced with today. I indicated that it would take a certain amount of time to process that legislation through the House and we got all sorts of guarantees from the Leader — his usual baseless guarantees, the words he normally uses are "a promise, but not a solemn promise". You will recall, a Chathaoirligh, that that was the last effort he made to wriggle out of a commitment given. The promise was not a solemn promise, it was merely a Fianna Fáil Leader's promise. It is unacceptable that we should be treated in that way. I think we are being treated very——
Senator O'Toole, in fairness that last remark will have to be withdrawn.
On a point of order, it is a legitimate political comment. It is not your job to defend other political parties.
Senator O'Toole is well able to look after himself. Senator O'Toole to continue without interruption. Could we stick to deciding whether we are in agreement with today's Order of Business and let the Leader in?
Mr. O'Toole
I can assure you that I do not agree with today's Order of Business. I would like to figure out how the Leader of the House expects these matters to be adequately dealt with today, even with a full Chamber, but a half Chamber it will be absolutely impossible to do so. He is simply exploiting a situation where there are so few Members in the non-Government benches — and I choose my words carefully. This is not acceptable. We are now faced with putting through legislation without due consideration and without having an appropriate amount of time to consider amendments. I would like to ask the Leader of the House how he expects us to deal with Second Stage today, consider the Minister's response and then deal with amendments? Are we back to the old story of Fianna Fáil dropping the guillotine to rush through legislation? It is a very solemn lesson to the rest of us as to why that party should be kept in check. When they have power they seek to abuse it.
The Senator has made his point.
Mr. O'Toole
I have made my point and I hope it is not lost on the Leader of the House because sometimes I find him quite insensitive to the most straightforward comments.
I would also like to ask the Leader if he will make time available today to discuss the totally unprecedented situation which would arise, in the Seanad elections, if the Taoiseach decides to dissolve the Lower House would there be a second Seanad election? This would have grave implications for us and I need your guidance, a Chathaoirligh, as to how this matter might be dealt with. It would not be appropriate to raise it under Standing Order 29 or anything else.
That is a legal matter. I am not in a position to help you.
Mr. O'Toole
I accept that. The Constitution, for which we are partly responsible, states that a general election for Seanad Eíreann shall take place not later than 90 days after a dissolution of Ditil Éireann. If the Lower House is dissolved this week and the election for the Lower House takes place before the election for the Seanad, that would seem to fulfil the constitutional requirement and there will be absolutely no need for a second Seanad election. I have been led to believe that the Acting Minister for the Environment has indicated that in the event of the Dáil being dissolved, there will be a second Seanad election. I want to place on record that there is no constitutional requirement to have a second Seanad election. All it does of course is——
The interpretation of the Constitution is not a matter for me. Secondly, all I am trying to do is get the House to clear today's Order of Business.
Mr. O'Toole
I am asking the Leader of the House, on the Order of Business, if he would make time available for a discussion on a most substantive matter, which has relevance to the workings of this House. The Minister should be called in here and asked to explain what he intends to do in this eventuality on which the Constitution is silent. It is not necessary to have a second Seanad election. I certainly would oppose the holding of one and, if possible, would mount a Supreme Court case on the matter. A second Seanad election would merely be facilitating people outside this House. It is unnecessary and it is——
You have made your point and it is totally a matter for yourself.
Mr. O'Toole
I is not just a matter for myself. It is a matter for you, a Chathaoirligh, with respect. It is a matter for everybody in this House. It is a matter of some importance which we have to consider.
It is not my role to give a legal answer to the serious questions you are asking.
Mr. O'Toole
I accept that. That is why I am not directing the questions to you.
All I am trying to do is clear today's Order of Business.
Mr. O'Toole
You will accept that I am asking the Leader of the House
The Senator has made his point.
Mr. O'Toole
I am asking the Leader of the House——
He will reply.
Mr. O'Toole
——not to give a legal response but to bring the Minister in to do so.
I would like to ask two questions of the Leader of the House. In the light of the extraordinary position of Mr. Haughey in the Dáil a couple of days ago, in which he stated that this is not only the best Government this country has had for the last while and also that he has produced the most progressive legislation in Europe
Senator Norris, we are trying to clear today's Order of Business. Will you help me do that?
I am trying to extract an answer which will clarify for me whether the Government of this country have the slightest respect for the European Court of Human Rights and whether they will honour the undertaking they gave in the light of the fact that the former Taoiseach has claimed that this Government have produced the most progressive social legislation in Europe? Is he going to do something about the judgment of the Strasbourg——
The Senator is out of order.
I am asking whether legislation is to be introduced on this matter. I also would like to ask, and here I support my colleague Senator O'Toole whether there will be any discussion on the constitutional problems involved in the Seanad election. I think that would be welcome. I have in fact put a section 29 motion in to have this whole political crisis discussed this afternoon. It will be interesting to see whether this is deemed to be a crisis or a matter of national importance.
I would like also to ask when the report of the Committee on Procedure and Privileges is to come to this House which signally failed to meet and to which I was advised to refer the matter of a misleading statement made to the House by a Minister. I was told there was a report coming to the House.
Senator Norris, that is a matter for the Committee on Procedure and Privileges. Would you please either agree or disagree today's Order of Business and resume your seat.
I want to know is the report going to come——
I am the Chairperson of the Committee on Procedure and Privileges and I will deal with that matter. I do not intend doing so in this House now. I will see you in my office when I leave the Chair at 3.30 p.m.
I would like to know when the report which was promised is coming to the House.
I will give you the answer in my office at 3.30 p.m.
I would also like——
Senator Jack Harte.
I am afraid I have some more——
If it is relevant to today's Order of Business, and, if not, resume your seat.
(Interruptions.)
Senator McKenna, you stay out of it, Senator Norris to continue on today's Order of Business.
I want to raise two further matters. The first is one that you have traditionally allowed, that is, the question of difficulties that Members experience with regard to the facilities of the House. I would like to point out with regard to the present situation, while we are all involved in an election, it is very frustrating not to have access to offices and telephones over a weekend when most of us would like to put in some work. I would like to know if any help can be given on that matter. Of course it would be improper of me to challenge your ruling on the question of the Adelaide Hospital and I will not do so, but I would like to ask the Leader of the House if there is not an intention for the House to sit again before the election for Seanad Éireann so that this important matter may be placed yet again because it has been ruled several times as an appropriate matter and yet it has not been taken.
I have ruled on what we are taking tonight on the Adjournment and my ruling on that matter is in order. As to when we will be sitting again and when your item will be taken, those are matters for another day.
I think I am entitled to ask whether there will be another day——
You have heard what the Leader of the House said.
Surely the appropriate place to ask the Leader of the House when we will be sitting again is in the House?
I will be in my office or in the Chair until 11 p.m. tonight.
I have just heard that Senator W. Ryan is not going forward again. All I can say is that during my time in the House I never met a more decent guy, in the sense of standing over his words and acting and behaving like a thorough gentleman on all occasions, even under the greatest of provocation when he was acting as Leader of the House. I was very sad to hear about Senator Ryan and I hope everything in his future life works out well for him.
Senators
Hear, hear.
On the matter of the Order of Business, I am in a rather strange position now: I could be described as the leader, the Whip of the Labour Party and spokesperson on all matters that concern them.
The Lone Ranger.
No better man, Jack.
That means that like a certain man before me, I have nobody to consult with, so I have to look into my own heart. My attitude, quite frankly, to the whole business today is that we should behave and act in accordance with the Order of Business. I think there is a case for the adjournment of the Seanad based on what was said by Senator Maurice Manning — that, in fact, we are depleted in numbers. The Seanad election is going on at the moment and there is a constitutional difficulty. In all of those events the wisest thing for us to do would be to adjourn the business of this House and I propose it.
First of all, I would like to join with my colleagues on these benches in welcoming the three new Members of the House for their short stay here. Secondly, I would also like to echo the words of Senator Manning and other Independent Senators in expressing a deep regret that Senator Willie Ryan will not be here during the next Seanad, and will not be here voluntarily. He has been here all the time I have been in the Seanad and I never had from him anything but courtesy and co-operation despite the fact that obviously we did not agree about a great many things. Having said that, if I had had to support the decisions of the Leader of the House for the last six months I do not think I would have stayed here much longer either. I have every sympathy with Senator Ryan.
That is not a fair comment.
On the Order of Business today, I oppose it and I shall be proposing an amendment to it. I oppose it for very simple reasons. I say in total sincerity and with great solemnness, that the past six months in this House have been the worst in the four Seanads in which I have sat and it is laid simply at the door of the Government party who have treated this House with contempt week after week after week. I cannot believe that Senator Lanigan could come to this House and say that they intend to put items Nos. 1 and 2 through today full stop. Nowhere——
Senator Ross, will you say what you want to say more directly?
That is what I am trying to do.
I have never heard anyone take so long to say something. Please say what you have to say and sit down.
You do not make it shorter by interrupting.
Senator Ross, to continue on the Order of Business.
I can say one thing here, first of all, on the Building Societies Bill. Let us be realistic about the situation.
We did not get to it yet.
If I could continue without interruption I would finish more quickly. I want to say something about the Building Societies Bill. I want to be honest about it; I shall not be making a major contribution to that Bill today, although I intend to speak on it. The reason is clear. I am standing for election, that is why, and that is why other people will not. That is a major Bill which should not be coming before the House in these circumstances——
Senators
Hear, hear.
——nor should the Central Bank Bill, which is another major Bill. It is absurd, when we had time in June to put these Bills through, when we will have time later, when we have been asking for serious debate on legislation for at least a year, that we should suddenly appear out of limber, depleted, when 15 of our Members have preferred to go to the other House, and be told by the Government that we are going to rush these Bills through today.
Are you moving an amendment to the Order of Business?
I am, but I am giving the reasons for opposing the Order of Business first, as I am entitled to do.
You have done that.
No, I have not done so at all. I wish to continue, if I may. With regard to the decision on the Adjournment, Senator Norris had that motion down before, and for some reason Senator Lanigan has leapfrogged over it.
I have ruled on that. It is not a matter for you to challenge.
It is a matter on the Order of Business which comes up at 8 o'clock tonight.
Wait a moment. I have ruled on it and it is not your right to challenge my ruling.
I am not challenging it for one moment.
Return to the Order of Business.
I am just saying that Senator Lanigan has somehow leapfrogged over Senator Norris, which is strange, and I think it should be put on record.
It is known as electioneering.
Finally — and this is very important — in respect for the House you should allow me to make this point: for some reason there is no Private Members' Time tonight——
Again.
——again, and it is in total breach of the agreement which the Government have with all the Opposition parties here. Let me read into the record a few words on this, and it is important they are read into the record because we had this before. I asked this question, as did Senator O'Toole, why is Government business being railroaded through this House and agreements being broken in order to facilitate it? It is for purely electoral reasons; I have no doubt about that. In reply, Senator Lanigan said last night——
Senator Ross——
I am talking about why there is no Private Members' Business today and that is very relevant to the Order of Business. In reply to this question he said here, "Mention has been made of solemn agreements", but Senator Lanigan said that there is an agreement which is not solemn. I have never heard such a farcical answer in my life. I presume that Senator Lanigan will be able to withdraw that and that he will be able to confer some sort of solemnity on the agreement we have this afternoon and perhaps tell us why it is being breached again. That is why I want to propose an amendment to the Order of Business.
Senator, you have done so.
No, I have not.
I have not heard the amendment.
I am now about to propose the amendment. I know that probably, as the Government have an overall majority in this House, they will behave as they would if they had an overall majority in the Dáil which, please God, they never will have. I wish to propose that item No. 4, the Criminal Justice (Abolition of the Death Penalty) Bill, 1987, be taken today, the reason being that it is our time. We are due three hours which are being taken away from us. We have looked for a debate on this and it has been voted down by the Government battalions who are still here — I see that all of them did not get into the Dáil.
Many of you did not get in, either.
I propose that it be taken today.
I would like to second that, as seconder of the Bill.
I call Senator Brendan Ryan, and then I shall call Senator Bulbulia.
I have already indicated to Senator Wllie Ryan the extent of my regret at his decision not to run again for the Seanad. There were two things about Senator Willie Ryan that made an enormous impression on me. One was his absolute truthfulness, even when that was difficult in terms of how, perhaps, senior members of his party in Government treated him in terms of what they asked him to do. I never found that Senator Willie Ryan deliberately, or in any way, deceived me either privately or publicly. In politics, that is a considerable compliment to have paid to one. I do not easily pay compliments to people in politics. In particular, I do not easily pay compliments to people on that side of the House. The compliments to Senator Willie Ryan are well earned.
The second compliment that I will pay to him reflects much on my personal background, because Senator Willie Ryan reflects the Fianna Fáil I used to know and with which I used to have a family association, a Fianna Fáil of decent values, of small people, who were not tangled up with the rottenness of big business and corruption. That is what people like Senator Willie Ryan stood for and stand for. That is particularly why I regret his departure because that sort of Fianna Fáil is the sort of Fianna Fáil that I used to associate with in my youth for the very good reason that they were representative of those values. They were conservative values, some of which I would not agree with now, but they were decent values, they were human values, they were real values of real people struggling to live in a real world. The departure of Senator Willie Ryan is one more step away from that sort of Fianna Fáil, the sort of Fianna Fáil that people like myself, my father and my family could associate with. For that second reason I very much regret Senator Willie Ryan's departure from this House.
Did the Cathaoirleach give any consideration as Cathaoirleach, as a person who represents this House and who directs when this House should meet to the appropriateness of this House meeting? I do not want to know how you came to a decision, I should like to know if you even thought about it because indeed you should consider the question of whether it is appropriate for this House to meet under the circumstances. We have a caretaker Government, a caretaker Taoiseach and caretaker Ministers until we elect a Government, We do not have a Government, we have a constitutional necessity in an interregnum. It is singularly inappropriate for this House to discuss legislation which was initiated by a defeated Government, a Government who did not get the support of the people, who indeed lost support. It is singularly and totally inappropriate that legislation introduced by a failed Government, a Government of losers——
(Interruptions.)
This is not relevant.
I believe in the principles which have kept me in a minority for most of my life and when other people, who are used to being in a majority, are forced into a minority——
The constitutional matters are not for debate.
It is a matter for the Chair to ensure that this House operates to the letter and the spirit of the Constitution. I would have thought that was your job, a Cathaoirligh.
That is what I have done and intend to do. However, we are on the Order of Business. I summoned the Seanad to sit today to deal with the legislation before the House and I regard it as a duty of the relevant Ministers to attend in the Seanad while these Bills are debated with a view to the legislation being enacted by the Seanad.
Mr. O'Toole
Is the Chair referring to the relevant acting Ministers?
That is my position as Cathaoirleach and Senator Ryan commenced his contribution by asking me if I had acted properly. I have done so since I was elected Cathaoirleach and until I leave office I will continue to do so.
Senators
Hear, hear.
Senator Ryan, will you return to the Order of Business, please?
I very much regret the fact that you misunderstood me. I never suggested that you acted improperly, I merely asked if you had considered the matter. I am happy now that you did and I am grateful to you for clarifying the point although I may not agree with you. I take issue with you in relation to Ministers — we have acting Ministers and an acting Taoiseach and there is a fundamental difference which the Leader of the Labour Party, to his great credit, identified last Thursday in Dáil Eíreann.
Will you return to the Order of Business, Senator Ryan?
With all due respect, if I am to discuss the Order of Business I am entitle to explain my view on it and to ask if it is related to the present political crisis. We do not have a constitutional crisis as the Constitution is more than adequate to deal with the problem. A political crisis should be dealt with by people who are active in politics.
Senator Ryan, will you get back to the Order of Business, please?
I think I am on the Order of Business but you are the Cathaoirleach——
You are not entitled to make speeches on the Order of Business.
Mr. O'Toole
On a point of order——
You have spoken, Senator O'Toole. Resume your seat, please.
Mr. O'Toole
I am entitled, under Standing Orders, to make a point of order, it is quite proper to make speeches on the Order of Business. It is a long tradition of this House.
It is not a long tradition of this House——
Mr. O'Toole
On a particular day when I was suspended through the incorrect use of procedures, I spent a lot of time in the Library checking previous orders of business ——
Because, traditionally, mistakes were made in the past you should not infer that I will continue to make them. Senator Ryan to continue.
Mr. O'Toole
Will you indicate the Standing Order which does not allow speeches on the Order of Business?
The Senator will resume his seat. Senator Brendan Ryan to conclude and then I will call Senator Bulbulia.
I accept that I am not entitled to make a speech on the matters to be ordered but, with every respect, I suggest that when Members opposite chose to make speeches on the Order of Business which reflected on our apparent academic qualifications and other matters, you did not tell them they were not entitled to make speeches. This is the first time in my eight years in this House that I have heard it is not permitted to make speeches on the Order of Business. You have created a precedent, which I very much regret, and I will contest it through the appropriate channels. Senator Harte, in proposing that the House should adjourn without doing any business, represented the proper attitude to the spirit of the Constitution. He has suggested to this House that until a Government are elected by the House which is directly elected by the people — I am very conscious of the fact that one House of the Oireachtas is elected by the people and that the other is indirectly elected and is not meant to be a way of circumnavigating the will of the people——
Senator Ryan, will you get back to the Order of Business, please? Either support the amendment or——
With all due respect, I am simply explaining why I agree with Senator Harte's amendment to the Order of Business. If Senator Lanigan does not like what I am saying he is entitled to disagree and I will die to defend his right to disagree with me. As the Taoiseach said: "It might be rubbish but it is my opinion". If the Taoiseach is entitled to that, obscure Members of the Opposition like myself have the same rights. That is one of the wonderful things about democracy ——
Senator Ryan, get back to the Order of Business.
Senator Ryan will never be Taoiseach.
I may never be Taoiseach but I reckon that my chances are considerably better than those of Senator Cassidy because I am not afraid to debate issues in public or indeed in private, unlike most Government Senators who are intimidated by their Leader into silence.
Rubbish.
I am not afraid of issues, I can stand up for myself in any forum so my chances of becoming Taoiseach are a hell of a lot better than those of Senator Cassidy
Conclude your contribution and resume your seat, please.
There are silent Members over there who have been frightened by one man into silence
Resume your seat, I am calling on Senator Bulbulia.
I had not finished.
This is irrelevant.
I am not aware of any Standing Order under which——
Will you please conclude your remarks?
I will. I am sorry but I was provoked by Senator Cassidy. I am intrigued as to the urgency of these two Bills. They are both important Bills and were debated extensively in the other House. They are not matters which caused fundamental conflict between what was then the governing ad hoc Coalition and I keep wondering why, all of a sudden, we have to rush these Bills through. Is there a crisis? I do not think so. Either we are worried about the capacity of the Central Bank to act on some immediate problem — after all, Senator Lanigan's motion on the Adjournment suggests that there has been an enormous boom which the 250,000 unemployed people will be relieved to hear about ——
Ask the Leader a question and let him answer it.
Is it because Fianna Fáil have to pay off their election debts that the Building Societies Bill has to go through in a hurry?
The Senator should withdraw that remark.
I am sorry, a Chathaoirligh, but I have heard comments and questions like that made on frequent occasions in the House.
The Senator did not hear another Member make remarks like that.
I did, and frequently.
Is it a political charge that the Senator is making?
Of course it is. It is a charge about the well-known fact that the Fianna Fáil Party were heavily funded by big business in the last election.
Sensationalism.
It is a political charge.
We got our support from the people.
Before I support my leader, Senator Manning, in opposing the Order of Business, I should like to pay tribute to Senator Willie Ryan who has made what must have been a momentous decision for him not to contest the forthcoming Seanad election. Others have spoken about his decency, his gentlemanly qualities and his quiet courtesy and charm and I should like to add that I concur with all that has been said about him. I wish him well in his retirement. The House will be the poorer for his decision. I should like to congratulate the 15 colleagues of all parties who have succeeded in being elected to Dáil Éireann.
I speak with feeling on the Order of Business as my party's spokesman on Finance. I have been waiting for some time for the Central Bank Bill to be introduced in the House and making appropriate preparations and I am shocked, and, indeed, scandalised, to think that it is proposed to dispose of all Stages today. I should like to make the point that there are nine Chapters and 141 sections in the Central Bank Bill. I believe that we have a basic duty in the House to deal adequately with legislation and give it the detailed attention that is so manifestly required. It is a particular attribute of the House that, by and large, party political rancour does not enter into debates on this type of legislation. Those of us who have an interest in such legislation, and are equipped to deal with it, can give it the detailed exposition that it requires. This is one of the most significant financial Bills to come before the House; it is of great importance. It is my view that to deal with it, and the Building Societies Bill, in a one-day sitting will do the legislation and the House a disservice. It is not in the best interests of democracy to deal with the Bills in this way. We have been elected to the House to preserve and to cherish. I am appalled and scandalised that we are being asked to deal with two major pieces of legislation in this way.
I cannot express myself strongly or vehemently enough in regard to this issue. I do not wish to score points but I want to see justice done to two major Bills. So strongly do my party feel about this, and so conscious are we of the jack-booted response we expect as a consequence of the vote on the Order of Business, that I am giving notice that, should the vote result in the Order of Business being passed, we intend doing something we never contemplated before; we will withdraw from the House and not participate in the debates on the Bills. We will do that because we feel so strongly about the introduction of the Bills. We are unhappy about the strange nature of the back-drop against which the House is operating today. We are absolutely opposed to dealing with these Bills in this offhand, cavalier fashion.
I should like to add my tribute to my colleague, Senator Willie Ryan, and wish him a happy retirement. To our colleagues who were successful in the general election, I should like to wish them continued success. I should like to endorse what Senator Bulbulia has said about the heavy and complicated Bills that are listed on today's Order of Business. I hope the Leader of the House will have second thoughts about his proposal that the House should deal with all Stages of those Bills today.
I should like to join with other members in paying tribute to Senator Willie Ryan for his long service to the House. A fellow Tipperary man, I have known Senator Ryan for a long time and his honesty, integrity and calmness in any situation are attributes we should think about. He will be a big loss to the House and to our party. I expect that he will continue to be an active member of our party for many years. If we all reflected on the attitude and respect Senator Ryan had for the House in the last 28 years, we would be doing a service to the House and the people who elected us. I should like to congratulate Members who were elected to Dáil Éireann and wish them well. I should like to welcome the three new Senators who were appointed by the Taoiseach recently. I hope they will gain some experience from today's sitting. We should act as mature people here. We have wasted almost one hour today and if we had not wasted so much time in the last two years we would have had more time to deal with other issues.
I should like to be associated with the tributes paid to Senator Willie Ryan. My position in the House is unique in that Senator Ryan became a member of the House with my late father in 1961. As a result I, in a sense grew up politically with Senator Ryan. For me, this will be a different Chamber, and it will be a different Fianna Fáil Party, without Senator Ryan. I should like to wish him well in his retirement.
I should like to pay tribute to two Senators who I believe will not be seeking re-election, Senator Willie Ryan, about whom a lot has been said with which I concur, and Senator Larry McMahon, a good friend of mine. He is also a man of integrity. I should like to wish both Senators well in their retirement.
Ba mhaith liom fáiltiú roimh na Seanadóirí nua atá taghtha isteach anseo inniu, agus téim leis an méid atá ráite ag na Seanadóirí eile mar gheall ar an Seanadóir Willie Ryan. Guím saol fada dó féin agus dá bhean chéile.
So many things have been said that I am not sure where I should start. In fact, I am not too sure what was said about me. To those who cast aspersions on me I should like to say that like water it runs down my back.
Mr. O'Toole
They were well deserved.
So does abuse run down my back.
That is the trouble.
Mr. O'Toole
Senator Lanigan should be more sensitive as Leader of the House.
Comments were passed about the fact that the House is sitting today and a reference to the fact that we are sitting under strange circumstances because of a shortage of numbers. I cannot understand those comments. The Seanad has sat after the dissolution of Dáileanna on many occasions. This is not a precedent. I should like to remind the leader of the Fine Gael Party in the House, who may not have been a Member in 1982, that we passed a number of Bills after the dissolution of the Dáil. We took all Stages of those Bills at that time. There is a precedent for the House sitting.
Mr. O'Toole
Was that after the new Dáil had met?
It was after the dissolution of a Dáil. The House sat on numerous occasions after the dissolution of Dáileanna.
But before the new Dáil met.
In 1982, we took the Social Welfare Bill, the Rent Restrictions (Temporary Provisions Continuance) Bill, the (Housing (Private Rented Dwellings) Bill.
The House never took Bills after the new Dáil had met; never without a Government.
There is no precedent for today's situation.
On a point of order, the Leader of the House, I am sure unintentionally, is misleading the House because he is giving us incomplete and inaccurate information. The fact is that the Seanad has never sat and never has processed major legislation after the return of a new Dáil, and certainly never in the absence of a Government.
The Seanad sat after the dissolution of the Dáil. We are proceeding with items Nos. 1 and 2, and we are taking all Stages of both Bills today.
Shame, shame.
A number of other questions were raised but they were not relevant to the Order of Business. The Order of Business is that we take all Stages of items Nos. 1 and 2 today.
Private Members' Time ——
Look at the size of the Bills we are rushing through today.
The question about Private Members' Time can be dealt with as appropriate. If the Member has a problem with this he can take it up with the Committee on Procedure and Privileges again. There is a complete Chamber here today. All the people entitled to be here are here, so it is not a incomplete Chamber.
Before I finish I would like to join with my colleagues who have paid a deserved tribute to Senator Willie Ryan. I have worked extremely closely with him for a number of years and I concur with everything which has been said about him. I have seen him work under extreme pressure trying to get business into this House——
Mr. O'Toole
Often caused by Senator Lanigan.
——and at all times he has attempted to present business which is appropriate to the House. Unfortunately on numerous occasions he has not had the co-operation that was necessary. He will be a big loss to this House and to his colleagues who have worked so closely with him. He has been a Member of this House since 1961, which is a long time and, as I have said, the tributes paid to him are well deserved.
I also want to welcome the three new Members. They are here deservedly and I wish them well during their stay in this House.
With regard to the Members who have gone to the Lower House, I am not too sure whether I should congratulate them. I do not think it is promotion: I think those of us who are committed to this House would see it as demotion. Nevertheless, I wish them well in the other House.
The Order of Business for today is items Nos. 1 and 2, all Stages of both Bills.
(Interruptions.)
Senator Ross has moved an amendment to the Order of Business, which has been seconded by Senator Norris.
I want to be clear exactly where I stand. I proposed that the House should adjourn.
I seconded that proposal.
Where does my amendment come in? Will it be moved first or second?
You can vote against the Order of Business, Senator Harte.
Mr. O'Toole
On a point of order, the motion to adjourn the House is not an amendment to the Order of Business and I say that that motion should be taken before any amendment to the Order of Business.
Senator Ross and Senator Norris have moved an amendment to the Order of Business. The question is: "That Item No. 4 be inserted after Item No. 2".
Senators
Votáil.
Will Senators who are claiming a division on the Order of Business please rise?
Five or more Senators stood.
The division will proceed.
Question put.
The Seanad divided: Tá, 8; Níl, 23.
Tá
- Bulbulia, Katharine.
- Harte, John.
- McDonald, Charlie.
- Ross, Shane P.N.
- McMahon, Larry.
- Manning, Maurice.
- Norris, David.
- Ryan, Brendan.
Níl
- Bohan, Edward Joseph.
- Bromell, John A. (Tony)
- Byrne, Seán.
- Cassidy, Donie.
- Dawson, Michael.
- Eogan, George.
- Fallon, Seán.
- Farrell, Willie.
- Fitzgerald, Tom.
- Fitzsimons, Jack.
- Hussey, Thomas.
- Kavanagh, Paul.
- Kiely, Dan.
- Kiely, Rory.
- Lanigan, Mick.
- Lydon, Donal.
- McDonnell, Frank.
- McGowan, Patrick.
- McKenna, Tony.
- Mooney, Paschal.
- Mullooly, Brian.
- Mulroy, Jimmy.
- Ryan, William.
Tellers: Tá, Senators Ross and Norris; Níl, Senators W. Ryan and T. Hussey.
Question declared lost.
Is the Order of Business agreed?
Senators
No.
A Chathaoirligh, may I seek your indulgence for a moment. A certain situation has arisen in the House which has caused total and grave disquiet to all on the Opposition benches. It is utterly unacceptable to us that we take all Stages of the two Bills today. I am putting forward a compromise with the agreement of all the groups on the Opposition side of the House. We would be agreeable to take the Second Stage of both Bills today and to defer taking Committee Stage. We think that is reasonable. It would save us from having to take the extreme sanction — which we do not want to take — of having to withdraw from the House in protest.
I am now proposing a short adjournment during which the Whips could agree to a revised Order of Business. We would be agreeable to take Second Stage of both Bills today.
I suggest an adjournment of the House for ten minutes.
Sitting suspended at 3.40 p.m. and resumed at 3.50 p.m.
On the Order of Business, as you know, we adjourned for ten minutes to see if some compromise could be reached on the day's business. I regret to say that the proposals made by the Government side are not acceptable. The main compromise proposals made are that we take all Stages of the Building Societies Bill today, all Stages of the Central Bank Bill tomorrow or that we take Second Stage of each Bill today and the Committee Stage of each Bill tomorrow. They are not acceptable for the simple reason that there are 270 sections in these two Bills of very complicated legislation. We are meeting here under the shadow of an acting Government. It is not acceptable to us that legislation be rushed through in this way. What is being asked of us by the Government side is not reasonable and it is with great reluctance, great regret and great sadness that I have to say that if the Government insist on steamrolling these two items of legislation through today we will have no option but to depart from the Seanad, to boycott the proceedings. It is something we would do with utmost regret but a reasonable proposal has not been made from the Government side.
An Leas-Chathaoirleach
Would Senator Lanigan like to make an intervention?
Certainly. I did not get a chance to convey the compromise to the Independent Members. What I did suggest was that we either take all Stages of the Building Societies Bill today and that we take all Stages of the Central Bank Bill tomorrow. Apparently that was not acceptable. I came up then with the other compromise, that we take the Second Stage of both Bills today and that we take the other Stages tomorrow. That has not been accepted by the main Opposition group. Under the circumstances unless anybody else wants to say anything ——
Mr. O'Toole
Yes.
Yes.
——I suggest that Items Nos. 1 and 2, in their entirety, be taken today.
I wonder if I may speak?
An Leas-Chathaoirleach
The Chair has allowed a long discussion on the Order of Business today and it would appear we are back at the very beginning. If there are some new relevant matters arising the Chair will hear them. I ask the Members of the House to bear with the Chair. There will be an opportunity at the end of Second Stage to discuss fully the date for the next Stage.
Mr. O'Toole
I would like to put on record that the Independent group have also considered the proposals made by Senator Lanigan and we find them totally unacceptable. This matter was brought to our attention during the weekend and it has not been possible to prepare adequately and do justice to this legislation to get through it in the period put forward by the Leader of the House. We think it is a cynical misuse of the House and we cannot be part of it.
An Leas-Chathaoirleach
The Chair is in a great difficulty in as much as we cannot have repetition of the discussion which we have already had. Unless the Senator has a question——
Yes, I have a question and I promise not to be repetitious. I ask the Leader of the House, does he not think that this decision today is a mirror image of what is happening nationally because it is about intransigence, it is about unwillingness to accept a reasonable compromise——
This is not relevant on the Order of Business.
——and to effect the passage of legislation expeditiously through the House.
An Leas-Chathaoirleach
The Chair must put the question: "That the Order of Business——
I do not wish to be repetitious.
An Leas-Chathaoirleach
It is not in order.
It is on a point of order.
An Leas-Chathaoirleach
I will hear the Senator on a point of order.
I deeply regret the decision of the Independents to withdraw from the House. I have never seen it before in seven years. These are two vitally important Bills on which I would like to contribute a great deal. I think it is indicative of the appalling way the Government have behaved towards this House, the appalling way they are prepared to railroad legislation through and the way they are prepared to ask Members of this House to vote through about 500 sections on the nod. I am very glad, as is Senator Bulbulia, that they have not achieved——
An Leas-Chathaoirleach
Senator Ross.
——an overall majority in the other House because they have shown——
An Leas-Chathaoirleach
Senator Ross, the Chair cannot allow repetition of the debate which has already taken place. I must put the question.
I would like to ask a question which will clarify my position with regard to voting. I would like to ask the Leader of the House, if substantial elements of the Opposition do withdraw is it still his intention to take two days this week to process this legislation?
An Leas-Chathaoirleach
That does not arise. The Chair must put the question: "That the Order of Business be agreed."
The Seanad divided: Tá, 23; Níl, 7.
Tá
- Bohan, Edward Joseph.
- Bromell, John A. (Tony)
- Byrne, Seán.
- Cassidy, Donie.
- Dawson, Michael.
- Eogan, George.
- Fallon, Seán.
- Farrell, Willie.
- Fitzgerald, Tom.
- Fitzsimons, Jack.
- Hanafin, Des.
- Hussey, Thomas.
- Kavanagh, Paul.
- Kiely, Rory.
- Lanigan, Mick.
- McDonnell, Frank.
- McGowan, Patrick.
- McKenna, Tony.
- Mooney, Paschal.
- Mullooly, Brian.
- Mulroy, Jimmy.
- O'Callaghan, Vivian.
- Ryan, William.
Níl
- Bulbulia, Katharine.
- Harte, John.
- McDonald, Charlie.
- Manning, Maurice.
- O'Toole, Joe.
- Ross, Shane P.N.
- Ryan, Brendan.
Tellers: Tá, Senators W. Ryan and Hussey; Níl, Senators Manning and Bulbulia.
Question declared carried.
I have a proposal before the House that we adjourn the Seanad and I would like to put that to a vote.
The question is: "That the House do now adjourn".
Senators
Vótáil.
Will Senators who are claiming a division please rise?
Five or more Senators stood.
The division will now proceed.
Question put.
The Seanad divided: Tá, 8; Níl, 23.
Tá
- Bulbulia, Katharine.
- Harte, John.
- McDonald, Charlie.
- Manning, Maurice.
- Norris, David.
- O'Toole, Joe.
- Ross, Shane P.N.
- Ryan, Brendan.
Níl
- Bohan, Edward Joseph.
- Bromell, John A. (Tony)
- Byrne, Seán.
- Cassidy, Donie.
- Dawson, Michael.
- Eogan, George.
- Fallon, Seán.
- Lanigan, Mick.
- McDonnell, Frank.
- McGowan, Patrick.
- McKenna, Tony.
- Farrell, Willie.
- Fitzgerald, Tom.
- Fitzsimons, Jack.
- Hanafin, Des.
- Hussey, Thomas.
- Kavanagh, Paul.
- Kiely, Rory.
- Mooney, Paschal.
- Mullooly, Brian.
- Mulroy, Jimmy.
- O'Callaghan, Vivian.
- Ryan, William.
Tellers: Tá, Senators Harte and O'Toole; Níl, Senators W. Ryan and T. Hussey.
Question declared lost.