Skip to main content
Normal View

Seanad Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 8 Nov 1989

Vol. 123 No. 2

Broadcasting of Seanad Proceedings: Motion.

I move:

That the following arrangements for the sound broadcasting of the proceedings of the Seanad, and which were in operation in the last Seanad, be adopted:-

(1) that Radio Telefís Éireann be authorised to recommence broadcasting of the proceedings of the Seanad and Oireachtas Committees on a pilot basis for a further period of 12 months, provided that such broadcasting proves satisfactory throughout that period;

(2) that such broadcasting be reviewed on an on-going basis by the Committee on Procedure and Privileges;

(3) that such broadcasting be in any of the following forms:

(i) in edited form in Radio and Television News bulletins and current affairs programmes,

(ii) in edited form in a "Today in the Seanad/Oireachtas" type programme,

(iii) in edited form in a "This week in the Committees" type programme,

(iv) occasional live broadcasts of major debates of events in the Seanad or in Committees subject in each case to the prior approval of the Committee on Procedure and Privileges;

(4) that recordings should not be used in programmes of light entertainment, political satire or in party political broadcasts;

(5) that copyright of the material be retained by the Houses of the Oireachtas;

(6) that Radio Telefís Éireann archive material in accordance with their usual practice;

(7) that Radio Telefís Éireann be empowered to sell the recordings to foreign broadcasting stations at an appropriate charge subject to a formal agreement between Radio Telefís Éireann and such foreign broadcasting stations that the recordings shall not be used in programmes of light entertainment, political satire or in party political broadcasts;

(8) that Radio Telefís Éireann devote a proportion of broadcast coverage to proceedings of Oireachtas Committees; and

(9) that the Committee on Procedure and Privileges monitor progress of the arrangements and be the body to consider any complaints from Senators about material broadcast.

It gives me pleasure to propose this motion. I will not delay the House by making a long speech on it but I feel that the programme edited by RTE over the past number of years has been of an exceptional nature. There are very few in this House who could complain about the lack of proper coverage on it. It is a programme that has a wide audience. It is amazing the number of people who listen to it in the evenings and there is also programmes at the weekend. It gives me great pleasure to propose the motion.

An amendment has been tabled to Item No. 1 by Senator Joe O'Toole and Senator Brendan Ryan.

I move amendment No. 1:

In the second line to delete the word "sound."

I do not do this lightly but there are obvious reasons why it is important. One is in order to facilitate the televising of the proceedings of this House. The last time we discussed this matter we fell into disorder. I would like to make a few points. The broadcasting of Oireachtas proceedings some years ago was an initiative taken by the Upper House. That initiative was taken some time after quite a lot of disagreement from the Lower House which for some reason is tied into it. The present arrangement for the televising of the proceedings of the Oireachtas is left completely in the hands of the Dáil Committee on Procedure and Privileges. I want to stress that point because many Members of this House do not realise that and have been misled on the issue.

Some Senators believe that there is a representation from this House in the decisions that are being taken to broadcast the proceedings of the Oireachtas. I want to put it on the record that that is not true. The outgoing Committee on Procedure and privileges endeavoured to have a representative of this House on the committee but it was not allowed for the superficial reason that it would slow down proceedings. That was a bit difficult to take considering that we had made the running on this and that we already had a decision of the previous Committee on Procedure and Privileges to facilitate the televising of the proceedings of this House. We met representatives of RTE and discussed the matter, as members of the outgoing Committee on Procedure and Privileges will be well aware.

Despite all that, having taken a decision at an earlier time that we would go ahead with televising the proceedings of this House, somebody from the other House intervened and we had some difficulties which led to a lot of hassle. In order to stop that happening in the future, I now wish, precisely along the lines indicated by the motion, to leave this matter to this House to decide for itself. If there is to be any kind of a joint decision between both Houses then it should be done by some form of joint committee of both Houses which is quite acceptable.

At the moment, as I understand it, on some occasions the Clerk of the Seanad can be present at some of the meetings of the Dáil Committee on Procedure and Privileges who are dealing with this. That is my understanding. I do not wish to involve the Clerk of the House in the business. We do not have an input. As an autonomous decision making House about our own business I would ask that this be taken on board.

It is a very serious amendment. It is an amendment that in a sense allows us to assert our rights to make decisions about the recording and the televising of our own proceedings. I am sorry there was not more notice of the amendment but there was some confusion as we did not have the normal meeting about the business to be taken. This is something which would, first of all, put pressure on movement on this issue, secondly, it would give the kind of access which we discussed before and, thirdly, it would bring this House into the forefront of public debate on legislation and other issues.

This amendment does not in any sense commit the House to doing anything. It is not a decision to televise proceedings. It merely facilitates the discussion and the decisions on this particular issues and allows the Committee on Procedure and Privileges under the terms of the motion to do that.

May I welcome the Cathaoirleach on his first day of ordinary business. I have considerable enthusiasm in supporting Senator O'Toole's amendment, not just because I agree with him on this specific issue but because this motion could do with a considerable and more dramatic amendment. I would invite the Members to think of how it would read if we had substituted newspapers for sound broadcasting and the restrictions we would be imposing on them.

This motion even as amended — I am quite happy to support the amendment — is the sort of thing that guarantees that we are taking ourselves too seriously. Why should our proceedings be used in satire? If we generate the sort of things that create satire, why should it not be used in light entertainment? What sort of precious species are we that we cannot survive with the public sense of humour? I cannot understand what is so precious about us.

It is not because of the prestige of this House that I believe it should be televised but because it is time that politicians and parties recognise the realities of modern communications which is that television exists. It is not that we should let it in here but that it is part of the world. The more we keep ourselves away from it the more we give an impression, whether it be this House or the other House, that we are not part of the world that, as I said earlier, we are some sort of precious species in danger of eradication, who cannot stand the light either of television publicity or the collective public sense of humour. It is time to cop ourselves on and realise what era we live in.

I certainly welcome this motion as one of the Senators who attended the first meeting in 1981. I recall in 1983-87 when I chaired the sub-committee there were not many people enthusiastic about what was said in the Houses of the Oireachtas. I am a strong supporter of the broadcasting of the Houses. If there is a wrong image given of this House and the other House at times some people serving in them should take a look at themselves and wonder why there is the wrong image of themselves outside the Houses.

Senators

Hear, hear.

It was meant for the Senators. In recent times the Seanad, which to me is absolute and sacred, has been given the wrong impression outside. Broadcasting has done quite a lot for this House. I was saddened by a comment made as recent as last week about this House and what was not achieved in previous Seanaid. A close colleague of mine whose opinion I valued, the former Senator Mary Robinson saw reform of this House as essential. Everybody here, whether we decided to vote with the former Senator Robinson or not, appreciated her opinion. In recent times because of broadcasting the people have become aware of some of what goes on here. I make an appeal here this evening in supporting this motion, that after the new Committee on Proceedures and Privileges is set up, an all-party group should meet RTE and see if we can get longer broadcasting time. Local radio has brought the Seanad closer to the people and we deserve more time.

I realise the other House takes most legislation. In the last Seanad two of the most powerful pieces of legislation processed through the Oireachtas were initiated here, the Companies Bill and the Insurance Bill. It was a little unfair the small amount of braodcasting time those two Bills got on RTE because we had two Ministers who came in here when both very important Bills were being amended. The role of the Seanad in those pieces of legislation was not made clear.

On a point of information, if the cameras had been in, it would have shown that for the whole period of the discussion there was one Fine Gael and two Independents present.

There is not a point of information. Senator Honan to continue please.

It would have been embarrassing for the Government.

I am only asking for something in the future to improve this House. We should ask RTE if they could give us a little more broadcasting time. Somebody made a suggestion when this was discussed here before, that maybe it was the wrong time for people to hear what was going on in the Dáil and in the Seanad. We have people outside who are not elected to any body judging the Houses and our workload. These people get more time on radio and more publicity generally than this House. I do not have to name any individual.

I ask for the co-operation of the other parties that in the Committee on Procedure and Privileges we should try to take this a step further and try to get more time for the Seanad. I feel the people in the other House are well able to look after themselves.

This is a very straight-forward motion and, of course, we are happy to support it. I agree with virtually everything Senator O'Toole and Senator Honan have said. I do not see how the amendment from the independent group will bring us that much closer to the objective outlined by Senator O'Toole. Perhaps he could explain to me what the amendment would achieve, I would be happy enough to support it but I am not clear at this stage. My own feeling is that this is a matter for the Committee on Procedure and Privileges.

I, too, am very concerend that the plans for the regular televising of the Houses of the Oireachtas have to a certain extent been hijacked by the other House, that in spite of very strong representations made by the Committee on Procedure and Privileges, backed by all parties and groups in the last Seanad, that we have fallen behind. My own feeling is that there is all-party agreement on this. I would ask that the Committee on Procedure and Privileges take this up as a matter of urgency and get clarification. That certainly would make me happy on that matter.

I would like to pay tribute to RTE for the very fair editing of the proceedings of this House. There have been no complaints from any side. People may feel that what they have to say is too short, that they do not get sufficient airing. Nonetheless, the fairness of RTE is not in question. What is in question is that the proceedings of this House can be unnecessarily squeezed out even when there are Bills of major importance before this House or when there are Private Members' debates on matters of great topicality. I appeal to RTE to give a longer period of time for the reports from the Oireachtas, especially when there are matters of major importance being discussed.

I want to raise the absence of any mention of the independent radio stations in the motion. I assume that the independent radio stations have a right of access to all of this material. The question is do they have to go through RTE? Have RTE the right to refuse or have the other stations a right, as legally constituted stations, to the material in the same way as RTE?

I would like, indeed, to encourage the new radio stations and especially the national station — though also the local stations — to take a greater interest in the proceedings of the Houses of the Oireachtas. The lead in this might well come from the Committee on Procedure and Privileges which might consider inviting in some of the new radio stations just to see what is possible. It is in all our interests that we reach as wide an audience as possible.

I welcome the motion. I subscribe totally to the objectives of Senator O'Toole. My own feeling is that they would be better attained through the Committee on Procedure and Privileges.

I, too, would like to make some brief comments about this motion and to endorse the contributions from my colleagues on all sides of the House in congratulating RTE for the manner in which they have carried out their duties under the orders that have been placed before this House previously. I would also like to support Senator Manning when he refers to the question of local radio, because the motion is very narrow in that respect. It refers only to Radio Telefís Éireann. Perhaps that is something for the Committee on Procedure and Privileges because it is a technical matter.

The whole concept of broadcasting the House has been touched on by the Independent Members. We are living in a new era. I have been in this House only since 1987 but I sometimes think that Members of both Houses become over-protective of the procedures and of the debates that go on in them. They somehow feel, perhaps, that the general public should not be privy to what goes on within the Houses. I do not know about any other Member but I always have a feeling of inadequacy watching news broadcasts from the more repressive regimes in eastern Europe. I am astonished at the ——

That is changing.

Like you, Senator, I welcome the recent developments in that area of the world. I am always pleasantly surprised that television cameras are in their various parliaments, be they rubber stamp organisations or otherwise. Increasingly they are becoming more relevant. The concept of broadcasting is what I am talking about. This motion deals with the authority or permission of this House to be given to a broadcasting organisation to broadcast. The point I am trying to make is that it is not all that long ago that newspapers were looked upon with some degree of suspicion by parliament. They were not allowed into the Houses of Parliament. Political correspondents were not allowed to have their own gallery or to report verbatim on proceedings. We are living in a new era. We are living probably the most exciting period of technological advancement this century. The Committee on Procedure and Privileges of this House should proceed without any undue delay to ensure that there will be televised broadcasting of this House.

Also, I am a little curious as to why Senator O'Toole was asking about the omission of sound broadcasting. I presume it is symbolic, as well as to prove a point. I would ask how can one have broadcasting without sound? In the context of this motion somehow it seems not to be fully in keeping with the spirit of the motion.

Regarding the editing of the programmes by RTE, I have felt that this House has suffered somewhat from the deliberations of the other House. Whenever there has been anything of major interest in the other House this House tends to suffer. While I would, of course, support the idea of more time being given on RTE to proceedings of the Oireachtas, as someone who has more than a tenuous connection with the organisation I am a little bit more aware than most of the demands on the schedules in RTE, specifically on Radio 1. Perhaps if there was to be an extension of time given to RTE and if they were given the wavelengths they are seeking there might be an opportunity for more time to be given to proceedings of this House.

In the context of this motion it is not enough for it to come before this House at the beginning of a session and to be passed, and then that everything continues as before. In passing the motion allowing broadcasting of the proceedings of the House, this House also has an obligation to look at itself, at its procedures and at the manner in which it conducts its business. Quite frankly, as someone who is in the broadcasting arena as well as being a listener, I would not be at all surprised at the reaction of people to more broadcasting of the proceedings of this House as it is currently constituted. On occasions — I mean this with the greatest respect to my colleagues — it can sound downright boring. Consequently, the Committee on Procedures and Privileges in the context of the development of the broadcasting of this House along the lines of television particularly would also need to make their decisions in tandem with decisions about reforming the procedures of this House. They should be that little bit more relevant and more disciplined in the time given to speeches and in the time given to Bills being introduced, etc.

I hope the Committee on Procedures and Privileges would look at the twin aims of proceeding without undue delay to televise the proceedings of this House but also to bring forward sensible proposals for the reform of the procedures of the House in keeping with television proceedings.

I also welcome the general outlines of this motion although I would have to say that I support strongly the amendment proposed by Senator O'Toole. It does seem that the use of the phrase "sound broadcasting" is clearly an attempt to limit the broadcasting simply to sound. I would also like to be a little bit uncharitable and point out, as nobody else has, that it is rather a pity that this motion was not introduced on the first day of the Seanad; then we could have had the Seanad broadcasts last week. I hope that omission will not occur again. I recognise it is slightly uncharitable of me, but I think one has to be honest in this House as well as charitable.

In a democracy it is vital that the majority of the people are given the greatest possible access to the fora of public debate. For that reason I think every reasonable person of a democratic disposition will welcome the broadcasting precisely because the kind of access of which I am speaking is limited already. It is limited in terms of physical access. The public do have a right to enter this Chamber under certain conditions. If this House was televised this afternoon I have no doubt a camera would pan across to my left hand and indicate that an entire seating area is vacant because of the strike that is currently affecting this House.

It is also limited because of the limitations on the coverage in the print media which, I have to say, is patchy. It is important that RTE, the broadcasting networks which are a national State concern, should make up the deficiencies. I do not say this to attack journalists. Certainly from a number of the newspapers — it would, perhaps, be invidious to name them — we get reasonably good treatment, but there are clearly some papers which make a policy of ignoring the existence of this House altogether. I would like to say that I deplore this practice.

It is also aggravating to all sections of the House to find that when we do solid hard work we are ignored. Unlike Senator Mooney, I do not mind greatly if somebody is boring because technical aspects of legislation unquestionably can be boring. One of the dangers in broadcasting could be that we would turn this simply into an entertainment. We could decide that we were going to package the proceedings of the House in order to compete in TAM ratings. I do not think that would be at all appropriate. It is galling when hard work is done, when measures are passed, when results are gained through this House that no attention whatever is paid even when these successes are remarked upon in the public media. I believe that broadcasting would help to balance that out. I do not want this to be construed as an attack on newspapers, some of which have provided a very good service to this House.

I am also, like other Members, prepared to suck up a certain amount to RTE but there is a limit to the grovelling that I am prepared to do, particularly with regard to paragraph No. 6. I would like to express my reservations about this. I sincerely hope that Radio Telefís Éireann do not archive material in accordance with their usual practice because if they do a lot of the best material will be wiped. It is regrettable that some of the best performances of people like Marie Keane and other of our greatest artists have been wiped because of the lack of a proper archive policy in RTE. We ought to know this before we put our heads on the block by paying undue deference to the archival policy of RTE, which I hope has been improved since those lamentable days.

I also agree strongly with Senator Brendan Ryan. In relation to the framing of this although there may be some legal requirements for us to do so, particularly with regard to the image of Ireland abroad, where I would certainly be more sensitive — I have no objection whatever to being pilloried in Ireland, but I believe that we all try to maintain as much unity as we possibly can abroad — but we are a little fastidious in relation to satire. I have witnessed intellectual somersaults occurring in this Chamber that would require the combined genius of Jonathan Swift, Brendan Behan and James Joyce to satirise. I am not convinced that any additional external operations of the satirical intellect would be required to make the House, on occasion, look inconsistent or, indeed, foolish. The reason for this is simply that we are not gods and goddesses. We are fallible, mortal people and we do, occasionally, make fools of ourselves. If we do, it should be exposed and we should be corrected by the operation of what your friend, fellow Senators, a Chathaoirleach and mine, Mrs Margaret Thatcher, would probably call the operation of free market forces in the intellectual arena. I am satisfied that this House can stand the test of satire as well as any other institution in this State.

I would like to take this opportunity to congratulate you, a Chathaoirligh, on your selection to the position of Cathaoirleach and to wish you well in that position and, indeed, a lengthy period therein as well. I know you will treat the House fairly and equitably and I look forward to participation therein.

I have no problems with the tenor of the motion. It is absolutely essential that there should be full broadcasting of the proceedings of this House. I agree, however, with the amendment that has been presented by Senator O'Toole that the word "sound" should be deleted. On reading the text initially I wondered what the meaning was and whether it meant good sound broadcasting, until I looked across at the Irish version which said "fhuaim-chraoladh".

Of course, we should have the full range of broadcasting from RTE. RTE operate both in the sound and in the visual area. In this time there is a television set in virtually every home in the country and the proceedings of this House should be relevant to the entire country.

We have spoken about the need for the authority and the functions of this House to be heeded more and greater weight to be put on them. In recent times we have seen criticism of the workings of the Oireachtas in the media and, indeed, the sound media as well. What better way is there is to ensure that the public at large see the work that is being done in this House and its effectiveness than having available to them broadcasting to which every citizen has access. It should be access to the best form of broadcasting, which is both visual and sound.

In relation to paragraph No. 4 — that recording should not be used in programmes of light entertainment, political satire or in party political broadcasts — I can see the need for a certain caution there, but I would prefer that the fairness and the editing of RTE itself be respected in relation to these matters. We can — and certainly appear to be — over-protective by specifying and by restricting areas where broadcasting is not to take place. We do not have anything to hide. If the work of this House is the work that we want to do and if the reforms that we are looking for are implemented, then the useful programme of legislative work and other work that comes before this House is worth broadcasting in full and in the best possible manner.

Of course there is an anomaly in that the public enter the House daily, the print media are in the House daily and there is no censorship of what the print media may take out of the House and use in a satirical fashion or in the form of light entertainment. Therefore, we have an anomalous situation and we should address that rather than leave it. That would give rise to the belief publicly that we are seeking to protect ourselves and, indeed, to protect ourselves unnecessarily. We should be outgoing and generous rather than restrictive and protective.

While I support the tenor and, indeed, the substance of the motion, it would be worthwhile to accept the amendment as proposed by Senator O'Toole. In the committee on Procedure and Privileges we could look further into paragraph No. 4 and see to what extent and where we can further allow broadcasting to operate in this House.

Fáiltím roimh an rún seo. Agus mé á dhéanamh sin, tá sé tábhachtach go gcuirfimis ceist ar a chéile cé le haghaidh é, cén fáth go bhfuil sé ann agus cá bhfuilimid ag dul. Is dócha gurb é an chúis atá leis an rún seo ná go mbeidh a fhios ag pobal na hÉireann céard faoi a bhfuilimid ag caint istigh sa Teach seo. Tá mise ag ceapadh freisin gur maith linn, mar pholaiteoirí nó mar dhaoine atá ainmnithe don Teach seo, go gcloisfimis muid féin ag caint. Déarfainn gurb é sin an phríomhchúis a bhfuil an rún ann, ní le go mbeadh a fhios ag an bpobal trí chéile céard atá ar bun ach go mbeimis féin le cloisteáil ar an raidió ar fud na tíre. Anois, déanann sé sin an-deacair domsa é, mar Sheanadóir, agus do dhaoine eile, agus cuireann sé alltacht ormsa go bhfuil mé ag seasamh anseo inniu, ar mo chéad ócáid sa Teach seo agus má leanaimse ag caint ar fad i nGaeilge ar feadh deich nóiméad eile nach mbeidh duine ar bith anseo, go mbeidh gach uile dhuine imithe amach.

Níl mé ag iarraidh a bheith smartáilte, níl mé ag iarraidh a bheith ag cur an dubh ina bhán ina luí ar gach uile dhuine eile. Tá mé ag rá go bhfuil sé thar am, má táimid ag caint le daoine faoi chóras cumarsáide, go mbeimis féaráilte faoin mBunreacht, go mbeadh an ceart céanna ag an gcainteoir ó dhúchas, ag an gcainteoir thiar i gConamara, i dTír Chonaill nó i gCiarraí nó áit ar bith a bhfuil Gaeilge nó an Ghaeltacht, go mbeadh an deis chéanna aigesean agus an tuiscint chéanna air agus nach mbeadh sé faoi smál má labhraíonn sé i nGaeilge, agus nach mbeadh sé thíos leis.

Bhí mé ag éisteacht leis an Seanadóir Norris ansin ar ball agus bhí sé ag caitheamh anuas ar na meáin chumarsáide agus ar na páipéir nuachta seo as go mb'fhéidir nach mbeadh tuairisc acu ar na rudaí a bhíonn á rá anseo sa Seanad. Ach tá mise ag rá, cibé seans ata ag David Norris, níl seans dá laghad ag mo leithéidse má labhraímse i nGaeilge, mar nach mbeidh focal dá laghad le feiceáil nó le cloisteáil in áit ar bith. Mar a dúirt an Seanadóir Treas Honan ar ball, tá dínit ag baint leis an Teach seo agus dá bhrí sin, tá an Ghaeilge ar cheann de na fórsaí is fearr agus is mó go mba chóir go mbeimis ag cur chun tosaigh, mar Theach, mar dhaoine atá inár mbaill den Teach Uachtarach seo.

Ó mo thaobhsa de, déanaimse mo chuid gnóthaí uilig trí Ghaeilge, déanaimse gach uile shórt trí Ghaeilge sa bhaile. Tá mé ag plé le mo chuid mhuintire trí Ghaeilge, ach mar sin féin airímse mar stráinséir istigh anseo. Airímse má thosaím ag labhairt i nGaeilge go mbeidh daoine ag rá "Mí-féaráilte", mar ní thuigeann siad mé agus níl a fhios acu céard atá mé á rá. Sin é an fáth go bhfuil sé náireach, ag an bpointe seo, nach bhfuil córas aistriúcháin istigh sa Teach seo, agus rud ar bith is féidir liomsa a dhéanamh le comhar agus le cúnamh ó na Seanadóirí uilig le go gcuirfí é sin ina cheart, bheinn an-bhuíoch díobh. Tuigim, nuair a bhí an Seanad ina shuí cheana, go ndearnadh socrú éigin ach nár leanadh riamh é, agus nach bhfuil sé ann. Nuair a bhí mé féin i mo bhall de Chomhairle Chontae na Gaillimhe sé bliana ó shin d'éirigh linn, an t-am sin, rún a chur tríd le córas den chineál sin a chur ar Chomhairle Chontae na Gaillimhe. Ach, faraor géar, níor aontaigh an Chomhairle lena dhéanamh, agus tá súil agam nach bhfuil an leithscéal céanna ag an Teach Uachtarach seo nó nach mbeidh sé le rá acu nach bhfuilimid in ann córas aistriúcháin a chur ar fáil.

Má dhéantar é sin, feicimse go mbeidh ciall agus réasún leis an rud atáimid ag iarraidh a dhéanamh anseo. Táimid ag iarraidh, de réir mar a thuigimse é, go mbeadh muintir na hÉireann in ann muidne a chloisteáil agus go mbeadh ár dtuairimí le cloisteáil acu. Mar dhuine a dhéanann mo chuid gnóthaí trí Ghaeilge ar gach uile bhealach, ba bhreá liom a bheith in ann é sin a dhéanamh, agus tá mé ag iarraidh ar an Teach seo na céimeanna a thógáil sa chaoi is go mbeidh sé sin indéanta agus go mbeidh an Teach seo níos saibhre dá bharr.

Most of the points I wish to cover have already been dealt with. I welcome this motion. I agree with all the speakers who said that the Seanad was not getting a fair proportion of coverage compared to the other House. It would be very fair coverage to give the Seanad one-third of the broadcasting time and the Dáil two-thirds of broadcasting time. I came from the communications world before I entered the Seanad seven and a half years ago and it was always a major problem to get coverage for my particular fields of interest. I do not find any problem in getting coverage on anything worthwhile in the political world on the national radio or television station.

I want to congratulate RTE on their great contribution towards the broadcasting of both Houses but, while saying that, I want to see more broadcasting of this House. That is only a fair request. With the level of debate I have witnessed during my time in this House, we can all proceed with confidence. We are answerable to those who elect us. Most of the contributions here are very constructive and definitely in the best interests of the people who elect us. They measure up to what society asks of us as legislators.

I must agree with those who asked that the new national radio station and local radio should be included. They should be made very welcome to the House to cover our proceedings. Most of those stations that come on air are reaching the younger listeners in particular. They have a big part to play in bringing the news of the Legislature to the youth of our country. From that point of view I call on RTE while they are recording and editing to make these broadcasts of our proceedings free of charge and easily available to the local radios and to the other national radio channel in particular. The local radio stations, which will cover local affairs in health boards and at county council meetings can, in turn, play a part and come back eventually to RTE with topical events of their latest news bulletins or broadcasts.

In relation to the sound aspect, I am not satisfied with the sound arrangements which exist here in our own House. We have two small miniature speakers — one going to the Press Gallery and one going to the Visitors' Gallery but absolutely nothing coming down here to the body of the Chamber.

I support the motion as introduced. It would be fair to say that in the past number of years there has been a revolution in the area of communications. It is interesting to note that the one area of business probably throughout the world that has been most affected by that is the business of politics. It has irrevocably changed forever how that business is conducted. I was surprised in looking at the programmes that RTE have done over the last number of years in "Today in the Oireachtas" to see the number of people who actually listen to those programmes. I would never have thought so many people listened.

The one big advantage is that it enables people to identify politicians in the country and it makes them more relevant to the people. For instance, many of the changes that are taking place in eastern Europe today would probably not have occurred without modern communications. We ourselves in this Chamber and in the other House of the Oireachtas should have all the facilities of modern communications. It is somewhat of an anomaly at present that we are only involved in the area of sound broadcasting. If my memory serves me correctly, the Committee on Procedure and Privilege are looking at the possibility of introducing the cameras into this House. There has been much travelling and looking at other Houses of Parliament already to see their broadcasting systems in operation. While not pushing the matter today, this is certainly something the Progressive Democrats would like to see introduced during the life of this House. The public have a right not just to hear but also to see their Parliamentary Chambers and their politicians at work.

The new national broadcasting networks, both in television and in radio, should have access to the Houses of the Oireachtas as well. The criteria of their licensing is that there must be some proportion of their time devoted to current affairs. I would invite them to look at the Houses of the Oireachtas as an area they would find of use. They would, indeed, give them an instant audience. RTE have set very high standards and have done an excellent job in the way in which they present the programmes. They may be hamstrung in some ways by some of the conditions that are laid down for them. In any change or updating of the way in which the regulations govern the broadcasting of both Houses it should be taken into account that those regulations could be broadened. They should help our national broadcasting corporation and, indeed, the independent stations to broadcast at a national level. They should help some of the very successful local radio stations, including that of WLR in my own constituency in Waterford.

The Progressive Democrats are very happy to support the motion, but they will be anxious in the future to see the broadcasting of both Houses of the Oireachtas expanded to include television as well.

First, I wish to support Senator Ó Foighil's demand for a translation service. There are those of us who, not very happily, admit their Irish is not adequate to understand a fluent Irish speech in this House and I cannot understand why that facility should be available in the Dáil and not available in this House. It certainly does not encourage people to speak Irish if that is the case.

On the motion before the House, I do not quite understand what all the fuss is about. I do not know how many motions of a similar sort have gone through this House in the last few years but I would like to see the day when we do not have any motions of this sort any more. It seems to me that we are making small concessions to the broadcasting media one by one as though it is some great privilege for them to come in to film us or to broadcast us and for the people of Ireland, at arm's length, to hear an edited version of what we have to say.

I want to see the day when this House is available and open to the television cameras and the broadcasters at all times, that it is taken out of our power to give that concession to the broadcasting services around the country and to the particular broadcasting organisations, and that includes the independents. I do not think we should be debating this motion year after year. We should be putting through a motion giving them that power and access once and for all.

Of course, having said that, I support Senator O'Toole's amendment but I hope it will be the last time this matter will be put to this House.

May I remind Senators that during the early months of this year this House did have television cameras in and we were honoured not only to have television cameras in but to have the Taoiseach in here also. I do not know whether the Taoiseach was in here because the television cameras were here, or the television cameras were in because the Taoiseach was here. But it did seem to me that it was not totally coincidental that the Taoiseach was here when the television cameras were in here. If bringing in television cameras and giving more open access to this House to them and to other broadcasting units, means that we get the Taoiseach here and we get more attention and more governmental attention — and it is always open to question whether Governments take the Seanad seriously — then I would certainly welcome them in. The visual effect would have a dramatic effect on the perception of the Seanad.

I do not, of course, agree with the Progressive Democrats' point of view on the Seanad, but it would expose the "warts" which are not seen by the public. We would then see exactly how many people were in the Chamber for various debates. It is not a matter of great pride to anybody in this House — and I include myself — that the attendance at this House for many debates is far from what we would like it to be. If the television cameras meant — and sound cannot convey this — that the attendance in this House was better and greater, so be it; that should be welcomed. We should stop debating this. We should stop making this concession. We should stop regarding the press and the cameras and sound as some sort of a threat to us. We should welcome them with open arms because we have absolutely nothing to fear.

I, too, would like to support this motion and I would like to endorse in particular what Senator Manning said and ask Radio Telefís Éireann to allow at least the same amount of time to broadcasting the proceedings of this House as is given to those of the Dáil. The producers of the programme, if they listen carefully, will find that there are at least the same number of sparkling witticisms and dazzling asides and interesting innuendoes in this House as there are from the Members of the other House.

Including yourself, Senator Lydon.

Thank you very much. Radio must not be merely informative but must be entertaining and having listened to some of the contributions from Senator Ross from time to time I think the radio producers would be well entertained. If they listen carefully they will find that the articulation, pronunciation and enunciation of most of the Senators are at least on a par with those of the Members of the other House. The final point I would like to make is that the contributions in this House are more carefully thought out and certainly well researched and therefore it would behove them to give us at least as much time. I support Senator Manning in this.

I would also like to support Senator Cassidy's request that independent radio and television, and new stations in particular, when the time arises, would be allowed access to the House also.

I support Senator Norris. I do not think we should be afraid to allow any radio or television into this House. We should not be afraid of a little satire now and again. A little joke at ourselves is something that we can all take. Thank you.

There has been a long discussion on the motion and my intervention will be brief. I am rising to extract, if I can, from the leader of the House as clear clarification as he can give to the House in relation to the position of local commercial radio stations and independent radio and television, as the case may arise. This matter has been raised by quite a number of Senators and the view is generally shared that there should be availability of the material to local radio stations. The motion before us is silent on their position and because it is silent I have to take it that they are excluded. I would be delighted to find that my assessment on that point is wrong but I am sure the Leader of the House will deal with this. The fact, as I said, that the motion is silent with regard to the position of local radio stations means that I have to take it that they are not included.

Senator Cassidy said that we should encourage Radio Telefís Éireann to make this material available to local stations. I am concerned at the fact that the decision as to whether or not this material will be made available to local radio stations would be within the power of RTE. This House must have the discretion and the authority to deal with the availability or otherwise of that material to local radio stations. I want to raise the question of copyright. Paragraph (5) provides that the copyright of the material be retained by the Houses of the Oireachtas. The copyright is being retained by the Houses of the Oireachtas but if the actual material on which the proceedings are recorded remained the property of RTE, the value of the copyright in these circumstances, and especially in relation to making the material available to local radio stations, is questionable. I want as much clarification as possible in relation to the position of local radio stations broadcasting Seanad debates.

I am rather intrigued to see that under paragraph (7) Radio Telefís Éireann are empowered to sell the recordings to foreign radio stations. Has the Leader of the House any indication of how substantial or otherwise the demand from foreign radio stations would be?

First, may I take the opportunity of congratulating you, as a Connaught man particularly, in assuming the position of Cathaoirleach of this House and wishing you well during your tenure there.

I question the necessity for this motion being on the Order Paper at all, in the sense that it is a matter for Procedure and Privileges and since these issues have already been debated then it should not be necessary to debate them here. I find myself also very much in sympathy with Senator O'Toole's amendment because it seems to me absolutely unnecessary to insert the words "sound broadcasting" into this motion. The way in which the motion is phrased is rather absurd in the sense that paragraph (3) provides "that such broadcasting... (i) edited form in Radio and Television News bulletins..." In other words, we are going to put it onto television news but it will be an intermediary reporter in Radio Telefís Éireann who will convey in sound to a television audience what we have being saying in this House. Senator Conroy referred to the fact that already the broadcasting by radio of debates in this House was having an impact and was putting a tangible face on politicians. I can see radio putting a tangible voice on politicians but I cannot see anything less than television putting a tangible face on us.

I agree with Senator Mooney's observations that information technology is running apace and there is a tendency in this country for many aspects of modern technology to run years ahead of the Houses of the Oireachtas. We are the last to introduce modern technology and I agree with him completely in that particular view. For those reasons I think that television as well as radio should be an option that the broadcasting services should have in relation to this House.

I would say there would be as much entertainment in the best sense of the word in this House in television broadcasting than there would be in the vast proportion of the imported soap operas on Irish television every night of the week. For those reasons I support the amendment. I think it should be the sentiment of this House to move in that direction by deleting the word "sound".

I just want to ask one question and I will not delay the House. Somebody asked me why there was pressure to have this matter dealt with. It might help the House if we could get it clear. The reason I suggested — I do not know if it is correct — was that the proceedings here to-day will go out tonight. Therefore there could be a little bit of pressure to have the matter dealt with. Is that correct?

A number of points have been raised on the motion before the House. May I say at the beginning that it is a very narrow motion and it is doing nothing except to continue what was happening up to now in the House; it does not change the arrangements and it does not give any exclusivity to RTE. It is just maintaining an arrangement that was there. I do not know — maybe somebody else does know — whether there has been a demand from the other radio stations to broadcast the proceedings of this House. I am not too sure whether that is or is not the case. I presume if an application comes from any of the other radio stations it will go before the Committee on Procedure and Privileges and a motion can come before the House to deal with the demand or the opportunity that might arise.

Again, in terms of the questions asked about the televising of the House, this matter has been raised in the Committee on Procedure and Privileges on a number of occasions. I think there was a mutual agreement in the Seanad Committee on Procedure and Privileges that television should be allowed into the House and I believe that negotiations are at a very advanced stage to have the proceedings of both Houses televised. Anybody who sees the two little holes on both sides of the Chamber might imagine they are for spying purposes but they are not. In fact, they will hold the television cameras when they are installed, as they will be in a very short time.

I do not want to go too far into this debate. This is a very narrow motion. It is specifically to allow RTE to continue to broadcast the proceedings of the House and, as I say, it does not take from any other station the opportunity to apply here. Possibly the word "foreign" should be taken out of paragraph (7) and the word "other" inserted and I propose an appropriate amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

I move amendment No. 2:

In the third line of paragraph (7) to delete the word "foreign" and substitute the word "other".

I propose that the matters raised by various speakers be taken up at an early stage in the Committee on Procedure and Privileges and that this House push for the amendments in relation to broadcasting that have been proposed here.

Amendment agreed to.
Motion, as amended, agreed to.
Top
Share