Seanad Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 7 Feb 1990

Vol. 123 No. 15

Private Business. - Bord Glas Bill, 1989: Second Stage (Resumed).

Question again proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

Mr. Hussey

The development of our horticultural industry by an independent statutory body is long overdue and I must take this opportunity to congratulate the Minister and the Government on setting up An Bord Glas. I know the Minister of State has been working very hard for the past few years to try to bring some order into the horticultural industry but he was very limited in what he could do because An Bord Glas did not have the statutory authority. Now the board will have that authority and will also have finance. That finance will be provided under section 19 of An Bord Glas Bill for the purposes of expenditure by the board in the performance of their functions.

The board must, of course, work in close harmony with other Government agencies such as Teagasc, who have responsibility for advice, research and education, the IDA, SFADCo and Údarás na Gaeltachta. They must also, of course, maintain close contact with the Department of Agriculture and Food. The Minister now has at his disposal the recommendations of the teams of experts who have been examining the horticulture industry from the producers' and a marketing point of view. I hope the new board will be able to act positively on those recommendations.

The production of a five year development plan for horticulture is a step in the right direction. If the right methods are followed the quantities we produce here at home could be increased substantially. In an agricultural country such as Ireland it is shameful that we should have to import vegetables. In dairying, beef and cereal production at the present time there are quotas, but here is one area where there are no quotas. All those people involved in horticulture need is a little planning in the production and marketing levels and their output could be increased substantially. We could in the space of a few short years eliminate many of the vegetables imports and help our balance of payments. Of course, we will always have to import certain kinds of fruit that we cannot grow here at home, but there is no reason in the world why we should have to import carrots, onions, brussel sprouts and, indeed, many other vegetables. We have the most favourable land in Europe — one might say the most fruitful land in Europe — to grow these vegetables and our climate is right also. There should be no need to import those type of vegetables in such large quantities.

The Minister says we can gain £31 million by increasing home production. Indeed, he is a little modest in his assessment, but even £31 million would be a great achievement. There is also the possibility of increasing exports. Here again the figure of £27 million has been mentioned as the yearly value of our exports. I have no doubt these targets could be met if the right strategy is applied.

Great strides have been made in recent years in the development of mushroom growing and the Minister referred to this today. In almost every parish plastic tunnels are used to a great extent and are becoming a feature of rural Ireland, giving valuable employment both full-time and part-time in the industry. I believe there is potential there for further development and expansion. Farmers should be encouraged and helped to diversify. If the traditional methods of farming are not viable there is nothing wrong with going for something new provided, of course, the venture has been properly thought out and planned and that consultation has taken place with the agencies responsible for the development of the market. There is plenty of potential in this area and I hope An Bord Glas will give every assistance to small farmers, whether they be in the west, east or south, who are interested in setting up plastic tunnels and getting into mushroom production. There is a good demand in Britain at present for Irish mushrooms and tomatoes and we should avail of the opportunity while it is there.

I would also like to see improvement in the potato-growing area. In the five-year development plan the board set themselves a target of 95 per cent self-sufficiency. That target is achievable and there is no reason why we should have to import as much as one tonne of potatoes. I know there are many problems in the industry, the principal one being that there is a totally inadequate marketing system. That has been the case for a long time in this industry. Also, there is the problem of a multiplicity of small producers all competing with one another.

The net effect of this is that potatoes are badly presented and badly graded and the housewife, who is always looking for good value for her money, is simply not getting that value. She cannot be blamed then for turning her attention to the better presented imported products.

There is legislation which protects consumers from shoddy dealers who are doing the industry a lot of harm by their lack of concern for grading and presentation, and it is a pity the law is not enforced. I would like the Minister to look at that because it is presenting a very bad image of Irish potatoes. I have heard housewives complain bitterly about the quality of potatoes purchased by them. Indeed, at a time when housewives are trying to stretch their housekeeping money as far as possible, it is unreasonable to expect that they should have to accept inferior products from anybody.

The Minister has stated that the way is now clear for Irish potato producers to benefit from aid available to facilitate the formation of producer groups. This is an important development and it is the road that potato producers must travel if they are to succeed. Potato growers operating through their own producer group would have much more influence, would be stronger and more organised than large numbers of growers operating individually and the resultant improvement would benefit both producer and consumer alike.

The Minister today talked about seed potatoes. I often wonder what has happened to the seed potato export business which was a thriving business some 20 years ago. I believe that in 1975 we exported 24,250 tonnes, while in 1988 the figure was down to less than half that. That is a very serious matter and is something which we should grapple with immediately. In other countries exports of seed potatoes have been doubled. Why not here? At one time it was a good source of income for small farmers. Indeed, many farmers in my own constituency were involved in this. Of course, the Donegal seed potato is world renowned and I am sure Senator McGowan will have something to say about that. In my constituency there were a number of parishes who were actively involved in promoting this industry and who had a very good income from it and it is unfortunate it has declined to such an extent. I hope An Bord Glas will see what can be done about improving that industry.

Have we been active enough in promoting new varieties of potato? In my opinion we have not. An Foras Talúntais were involved in improving breed varieties back in 1962 for all aspects of the potato trade. A potato breeding programme was started at Oak Park Research Centre around 1962. Originally its main objective was to produce a high yield blight resistant form of Kerr Pinks, our most widely grown main crop variety. The process of producing a new variety of potato is very long and tedious. The evaluation process takes at least ten years and eventually involves large-scale field trials in the main potato growing areas, combined with quality, processing, storage and screening testing. It takes about 15 years from the making of the initial cross to obtain true seed until a new variety is available to the potato grower. Therefore, it is important that something positive should happen in this area all the time. We should not be depending on the old varieties, the Kerr Pinks and so on, that we have had over the years. We should always be endeavouring to seek out and promote new varieties.

The glasshouse sector also comes under An Bord Glas. They have had a very hard time for a number of years. The biggest handicap has been the increase in oil prices in the mid-seventies. This made it difficult for them and it put many of them out of business at that time because they were trying to compete with their European counterparts, some of whom I believe were being subsidised to stay in business. That made it very unfair competition. The special aid introduced last year in the form of a new capital grants scheme of 25 per cent and an increase from 15 per cent to 35 per cent for grants under the farm improvement plan should be a considerable help to this industry. The predictions are that production will increase by 6,500 tonnes. That would be a great achievement and I see no reason why this should not be achieved. We should be setting ourselves a target of becoming self-sufficient in this area. I believe we could do that because the quality of the Irish tomato is as good as any from Europe.

I would also like to see An Bord Glas make an input with regard to cutaway bogs. Some experimental work was done in this area some years ago but An Bord Glas should involve itself in this area now because there are thousands of acres of cutaway bogs which are under-utilised; in fact, they are not being used at all. Those of us who have an interest in land or in bogs will know that bogland is the best place to grow carrots, parsnips and onions. No other type of land will produce as good a variety of crop as cutaway bogland. These cutaway bogs are lying idle at the moment, growing moss and so on. An Bord Glas might take up a few hundred acres and develop it to see how it would work out. It should certainly be looked at. I see no reason why they should not be able to grow in that cutaway bog a lot of the vegetables we are now importing. Thousands of acres of it are lying idle.

Organic farming has been mentioned. In spite of what Senator Raftery has said there is great potential for organic farming. It should be encouraged and I am glad that money is being provided in the budget this year and that An Bord Glas will have the responsibility of promoting organic farming and spending that money. We hear a lot of talk now about the spread of cancer from the use of pesticides, fertilisers and so on. I believe that if organic farming was developed in an organised way — you do not want to overdo it — there would be great potential for it. It is something the new board should get involved in to see how it can be developed.

There are exciting times ahead for this new board. I wish them all the luck in the world. I hope the best people can be selected to act on that board, people who have experience of the industry, people who are prepared to give the board a commitment. I am satisfied that sufficient funds will be made available to the new board to let them carry out their work. I hope that in the space of a few years we will see the elimination of many of the imports coming in at present, vegetables that we could grow here at home which are being imported from England, France and so on. There is no reason why we should not be growing them here. I hope this is where the new board will come in and that they will do a good job. I am confident they will. I know that the Minister of State responsible is very committed to his job. I wish him every success and I hope that when we are coming back here again, perhaps in a year or two, we will see this as one of the great success stories of our time. I wish the board luck. There is a lot of work for them to do. I hope the new board will be committed to that work and try to help the balance of payments by eliminating many of the imports.

Dr. Upton

I welcome the objectives of the board as laid out in the explanatory memorandum. They are all very worthwhile. I do not think any of us would want to say that horticulture in this country has achieved its potential. As long as fruits and vegetables that can be grown at home are, as it were, being replaced on the Irish market by imported items it is a cause for concern. We should not rest until imports of these products which we, of course, can produce to standards which are comparable to anything in the world, have been eliminated. I know that to eliminate totally competing items from the marketplace here is unacceptable and, broadly speaking, impossible but certainly we have not attained our potential. For that reason we have a great deal of work to do in relation to the production and the marketing of Irish produce. There is considerable scope for improving the quality and the consistency of fruits and vegetables which are produced in Ireland for the home market. I do not have to hand the data on imports which would be competing with Irish products but certainly when I last looked it up it was quite alarming and was something of a political issue ten or 15 years ago. It seems to have faded away in more recent times.

First let us consider the composition of the board. It is to be a board of ten people. I am pleased to see that five of them are to have experience and expertise in horticulture. I would be a bit happier if a certain proportion of the board were appointed or elected by various elements in the industry. I am concerned that boards should be appointed in total by Ministers of the day. The reality is that in many cases Ministers tend to appoint people who are of a certain frame of political thought. I do not wish to sound as if I am objecting to that totally.

I was on boards in the past when I was going around in my light red jersey at the time. I do not think that it to any great degree inhibited or interfered with what I had to say. What is important is that there should be some degree of continuity between boards. For that reason I am disappointed that there is no degree of input into these boards from sources other than ministerial appointments. I am pleased there is some degree of balance in as much as half the board will have to have expertise and experience in horticulture. That is encouraging but I would like to see elements of the board coming from the farming organisations directly and from various other interest groups.

The scope of the Bill is quite large. It covers every aspect of horticulture. It covers things like grading. It even goes so far as to refer to an input from the board into the curricula for higher education courses in horticulture. Certainly it would be desirable that the views of the industry be taken into account by the people who formulate curricula for horticulture programmes at third level educational institutes. I would imagine that some people in these institutes might be concerned in relation to questions of academic freedom and so on, as to where that input might stop and where academic freedom might begin to be interfered with. That would be a matter of some concern. Certainly I would welcome the notion and the idea that the board would have an input, would have an opinion and would express it in relation to courses for third level institutions. I would be a bit concerned as to where the opinion might end and a degree of coercion might begin to occur.

There will be an increasing potential for fruit and vegetables in the diet in developing countries. I am interested to see in the Minister's speech that he quoted from an article of an old colleague of mine, Dr. Owen Gormley, with whom I have had the pleasure of meeting at various conferences. He would have been a colleague of the Minister's also or the Minister who is sitting in today from his days in An Foras Talúntais, even if he belonged to a different wing of An Foras in those days. I am pleased to see reference to him.

I am also pleased that attention is drawn to the fact that fruit and vegetables should now be seen as a desirable part of the diet, commodities that are not being consumed in adequate amounts. There will be a growing emphasis on the value of fruit and vegetables in the diet and the great benefit that can derive from consuming them. They certainly have an important contribution to make to the total intake of fibre in the diet, a matter which is of grave concern here. Medical studies on the Irish diet would indicate we are not consuming as much fibre in the diet as is desirable. The experts would go on further to say that extra fibre in the diet should be consumed in the form of fresh food rather than taken in processed products. They also make an important contribution to the total vitamin and mineral intake — a matter of great concern even if some of the concern about the intake of vitamins and minerals is misplaced. Fruits and vegetables are, of course, low in fat. It is very important that An Bord Glas should lay emphasis on these sorts of considerations when they are promoting the value of fruit and vegetables as part of a healthy diet. There is considerable potential there.

Irish food products generally, particularly fruit and vegetables, are perceived in Europe as being produced in a desirable environment where the input of chemicals and so on is relatively modest compared to what are the norms in Europe. We have a great potential for obtaining premium prices for our products based on that perception of Irish foods which is very widespread in Europe at present. The survey data indicates that very clearly. It is a pity we have not been more aggressive in marketing our fruit and vegetables in Europe on that basis.

That, of course, is broadly speaking in line with this notion of organic farming. People who have come from a background in agricultural science and technology might have reservations about organic farming. The reality is that in Europe organic foods are perceived as desirable. It would be very foolish and simple-minded of us not to set about exploiting that potential. We have a great opportunity there. It is very important when we do set about exploiting the potential for organically-produced food in Ireland that we absolutely insist that the quality control and product assurance and so on is foolproof. The worst thing possible that could happen is that we sell material as organically produced and that it would be found that it did not meet the standards which are required for organic production. It is essential that we lay great emphasis on ensuring that what we say is organic will meet what the European consumer would perceive to be organic. Anything less and we would be on the road to disaster.

We have a great potential there, given the way European consumers are moving in relation to their perception of food. There are EC directives in the pipeline and they are making their way into the system here. It is very important that An Bord Glas gear itself up to be able to exploit that potential fully. We will be able to get premium prices for our products.

I will conclude by noting that diet is going to have a higher vegetable and fruit content. I wish An Bord Glas well in their work.

Mr. Dardis

I preface my remarks by recalling that in the very early days of this House the Minister, Deputy Kirk, was asked to apologise to us for having kept us some small amount of time and that he graciously did so. We, in turn, have delayed him and his officials quite considerably this afternoon and I take the opportunity to apologise to him. The matters we are now discussing are of considerably more relevance to the generality of the population than some of the procedural mischief we have had here this afternoon. It is remarkable that some of those who profess to defend the institutions of the State and the House seem to hold it and some of the people who sit here in such contempt.

We in the Progressive Democrats welcome the establishment of An Bord Glas. The Minister, Deputy Kirk, has worked hard on behalf of horticulture. I hope the new board will make an impact on the industry and that it will be able to boost the returns to growers, turn back the growing flood of imported fruit and vegetables and that it will help, most of all, to create extra jobs.

I note the Minister estimates that there is a capacity within horticulture to create 1,850 full-time new jobs and 1,500 part-time jobs over the next five years. I welcome what the Minister had to say this afternoon about the 700 full-time and part-time jobs which were created in 1989. The industry has a much greater potential than that and given the proper level of commitment from the Government, a commitment that has been frequently absent in the past from successive Governments, the industry can do a great deal to increase employment and help maintain viable rural communities.

It is widely accepted that we have a very favourable climate for the production of high quality potatoes and vegetables, mushrooms, nursery stock and ornamental plants, particularly in these times when we are so conscious of the effect of a good diet on health and of the value of a clean environment on food production. Ireland must be in a unique position to take advantage of our natural advantages and to exploit food production in general and the horticultural industry and fresh vegetables in particular.

The need for alternative enterprises was mentioned by Senator Raftery. That need was never more obvious than it is today in Irish agriculture. Horticulture, it should be remembered, is the ideal activity for the small family farm. Unfortunately it has to be admitted that our national record in horticulture over the past 20 years or so has been very poor and that we have missed a lot of opportunities through poor production and especially through an inability to organise the marketing of our produce.

It cannot be right that an agricultural country like ours produces less than half its own requirements of fruit and vegetables. I fully realise we must import bananas and oranges and even the ubiquitous kiwi fruit, but I find it difficult to accept a situation where we import half our tomatoes, 80 per cent of our onions and 90 per cent of apples. In 1988 our fresh vegetables import bill, including potatoes, was £28 million. How can we explain that a country whose history has been identified so closely with the potato imports £15 million worth of frozen chips or that a country that has shown it can produce high quality applies in abundance imports £20 million worth of apples per year? How can we explain that we exported 42,000 tonnes of seed potatoes a year 25 years ago and now we cannot export 10,000 tonnes or that our overall acreage has fallen by a quarter in the past ten years? I highlight these figures, not so much to list the failure of the industry to survive and compete but to underline the potential that must be there to expand, given the right environment.

The mushroom industry has been referred to. It is the most exciting example of what can be achieved and it sets a headline for the rest of horticulture. Here is an industry which has expanded fourfold in the past ten years. It now produces more than 22,000 tonnes a year, worth £26 million to the economy, with exports accounting for 60 per cent of that production. I am sure we all hope, notwithstanding the difficulties which that industry now must face with the strength of the IR£ against sterling, the mushroom industry will reach its production target of 42,000 tonnes a year by 1992 and that the high employment content of that industry will account for 2,000 jobs.

The technology of growing mushrooms in plastic bags in plastic tunnel houses was pioneered by Cathal Mac Anna and his colleagues at the Agricultural Institute at Kinsealy and the move away from the old capital-intensive tray houses to the system of satellite growers supplying from a central composting depot has revolutionised the industry. The most important thing is that it has created an ideal enterprise on the small family farm and this is a model for what horticulture has to offer. It can provide a decent living for people on the smaller acreages and can help make some impact on the flight from the land.

The mushroom industry has nailed the lie that farmers are incapable of meeting the fundamental requirements of all markets, that is, markets demanding a constant supply of quality products at a competitive price. The mushroom industry has not been a case of the classic disease of producing first and then trying to sell, which seems to be a feature of a lot of our potato and vegetable production. It would repay Bord Glas and the whole industry to study closely what has been done at Carbury Mushrooms in Kildare and at Walsh Mushrooms in Gorey and at the other centres around the country. The growers who have contracted to these companies have shown they can accept the discipline that is needed to hit demanding targets on yield and quality and to accept that the consumer should get a closely graded, well presented product at the right price on the supermarket shelf. The truth is that the consumer is right. That seems to be accepted more by the mushroom and the nursery stocks industries than by any other horticultural producers. It is probably central to the success which these two industries are enjoying.

I agree with what the Minister said earlier about the hardy nursery stocks industry, that is, the production of shrubs and trees for amenity use. It is another horticultural sector which has made remarkable progress and which has adopted a professional approach to marketing. Great strides have been made in exporting and this industry has contributed significantly to employment in west Kildare around the peatland areas. Each year the growers in that area hold their own trade show. It is very successful and they have been involved in the major garden exhibitions in Britain. They have done all of this through their own initiative, with the help of the Teagasc nursery stocks specialist, Paddy Gleeson.

For this industry we have excellent disease-free conditions in this country and the right climate for rooting and growing quality shrubs and trees. The industry has a central role to play in improving our environment and the market is one which is expanding rapidly. Although great strides have been made, I hope this will not be just another example of Ireland missing out on the golden opportunity to do something at which we are obviously good. I note there is a national conference on Friday on nursery stocks which has been organised by Teagasc and An Bord Glas. That is the sort of activity in which both organisations should be involved together, and it is a good thing to see.

Obviously mushrooms and nursery stocks are good examples of what can be done, but it is a pity that we cannot say the same thing about potatoes. I can recall several efforts to overhaul and organise that industry, but it is still in a fairly sorry state. Potato growers must be the most resilient group of people in the country, given that from one year to the next they can move from almost bankruptcy to being able to pay their debts and back to bankruptcy again. They have no way of knowing that in advance. I sometimes think they would be a lot better off and enjoy themselves a lot more if they went to the Curragh and backed the outsiders.

As I said at the outset, the situation where our potato acreage has declined by a quarter since 1980 to around 75,000 acres, is one which is regrettable. The numbers of growers has halved in the past 20 years. Many were small producers getting out of business. There are now some very well organised professional growers producing potatoes successfully, although how some of them do it on very expensive rented land I just do not know. Growing the crop is a very expensive business. It costs around £1,000 an acre, which is a lot more than for any other field crop and because of inadequate storage a lot of the potatoes have to be moved at harvest-time. This leads to discounting on the market and to an absence of continuity of supply. The result is very poor marketing and frequently a collapse in the price.

The returns from the crop are so unreliable that it is hard to blame growers for not investing in storage space, but the lack of good temperature-controlled storage is at the heart of the potato marketing problem. At present we have only long-term storage for about 7 per cent of our national crop and about two-thirds of that storage is for processing. Losses due to storage rot and mechanical damage are estimated to be about one-third of the national crop on average, and that is an appalling figure. It is huge and it is unacceptable from a national point of view. We need about 80,000 tonnes of extra storage space and this can best be achieved through an expansion of the producer groups, which would have the simultaneous effect of putting some order into the general marketing of the crop. I am glad the EC producer group regulation has been extended to Ireland for potatoes and similar financial advantages as those for vegetables now apply to potatoes.

Senator Hussey mentioned the breeding of new varieties of potatoes. Dr. Harry Keogh and his colleagues at Teagasc in Oak Park in Carlow have a very impressive record in producing new potato varieties. The question must be asked as to why these varieties have not been fully exploited commercially by the seed potato industry and why the industry has declined so much when, at the same time, the Dutch industry has grown from virtually nothing after the war to being the dominant force in the world today, with people in countries all over the world selling Dutch potatoes. Seed growers in Donegal seem to resent the fact that Northern Ireland and Scottish seed is being sold in the South. I do not think there can be any obligation on growers to buy seed if those who produce it are not prepared to go out and market it.

It is clear that in ware potatoes, as in other areas of horticulture, irresponsible behaviour by a few growers, wholesalers and handlers of the crop is pulling down the price that the good growers are getting. It is preventing those people from investing in the industry to which they are committed. Good growers cannot be blamed for throwing in the towel when they go to the trouble of grading their produce according to the law and then see it all jumbled up again at retail level. It is frequently said, and the growers would say it, that we grow the best potatoes in the world, and it is probably true. However, we must admit that the best can become very poor between the time they leave the field and the time they reach the consumer. This is a fundamental problem that the new board and the grading inspectors must address. Otherwise it will be very hard to encourage the growers to expand the industry.

I note what the Minister had to say about the links between An Bord Glas and the IFA. I hope that the marketing co-ordinator who is to be employed by the IFA will be working actively before long. It must be admitted that one of the main reasons for many of the problems of the potato industry is poor yields. The variety Kerr Pinks account for half our acreage and there is an obvious need for a new high-yielding variety or for several varieties. The increased use of certified seed and of sprouting would also help, but it is very difficult for the potato industry in the Republic to compete successfully when our yields are only about two-thirds of those in Holland and are even a couple of tonnes below those in Northern Ireland. The result is that our costs per tonne of production are very much higher and very much more uncompetitive than they are elsewhere and it makes it very hard for us to resist imports.

Raising the yield of marketable ware through extra yield in the field and through less loss in storage must be fundamental to improving the Irish ware potato industry. This means good research and advice. I have already referred to the work carried out at Kinsealy Research Centre, which helped the expansion in the mushroom growing and the valuable work which has been done at Oak Park in plant breeding by Dr. Keogh. In my view research and advice is fundamental to keeping the whole agricultural industry on a competitive footing, and I am very sorry that Teagasc, or ACOT as it was, suffered so disproportionately during the period when Government spending had to be cut for all our sakes. People who contributed a lot, and who still had a lot to contribute, have been lost to the industry and that is a matter of regret. It is hard to talk of developing horticulture when Teagasc have been without a head of horticulture since the middle of last year. The same applies to the UCD Lyons Estate in County Kildare where, among other things, research on potatoes is being carried out by Dr. Paddy Barry. I hope the Minister for Education whose responsibility this is will see that the Lyons Estate continues to contribute to the development of Irish agriculture.

I have already mentioned the role producer groups can play in developing the industry. It is unfortunate that only about 10 per cent of our fruit and vegetables is sold through the officially recognised producer group network in Ireland. This compares with almost 100 per cent in some other European countries. Irish growers in their present disorganised state must be vulnerable to exploitation by very large wholesalers and dominant supermarket chains and the best way to resist this must be through a strong producer group.

I note that the functions of the board, as defined in section 5 of the Bill, do not make reference to producer groups. Perhaps the Minister would consider reviewing this sector to allow the board to become actively involved in helping to establish producer groups. This would be very much in keeping with the tone of the Bill and with the activities in which the interim board has been involved.

The Bill requires Teagasc to consult the board when preparing reports. I note what the Minister had to say. I accept he would like to see a close relationship between the two bodies but I would like him to explain more fully how he sees the working relationship between the board and Teagasc operating because, unless both organisations are at one, many of the laudable aspirations of this Bill will fall by default.

The support of the farmers and growers, and in particular of IFA members, is also essential if the board is to operate successfully. It has been suggested in the other House that the IFA do not support this Bill. This is simply not the case. The IFA is on record as fully supporting the necessity for the proper establishment of An Bord Glas as a statutory body but that is not to say it does not have reservations on one or two aspects of the Bill. It seems reasonable since section 12 of the Bill proposes a levy to be paid by the seller of the horticultural products concerned that the main representative organisations of growers and nursery men — that is the IFA — should command the five places which the Minister can choose after consultation with such persons as he considers appropriate who are engaged in or representative of those engaged in horticulture.

I would like if the Minister could specify the criteria he will use in choosing board members. It would seem only right that those who pay the piper call the tune. The composition of the board must not only give representation to producers but it must be seen to do so. The need for a really innovative approach to horticulture is so urgent and the potential pay-off for such an approach is so great that it is essential we have both a board and a chief executive of the highest calibre. These selections must be on the basis of excellence, concern and performance in the industry. I ask the Minister to settle for nothing less than that. As to the collection of the levy itself, I would like clarification as to how this fits in with EC legislation and if it is possible to levy the sale of imported produce. This matter has already been referred to by Seantor Raftery. I share his sentiments in that respect.

Another legitimate concern of the producers as represented by the IFA is the increasing dominance of a few large buyers within the market. Already I understand that half of our ware potatoes traded in this country are sold through four multiple supermarket groups. The ability of a few very large groups to dominate the whole fruit and vegetable market is a worrying trend. We all know the danger of too much domination of a market sector by one or two buyers. I would support the IFA view that the board must try to ensure fair trading practices operating at all levels and at all times throughout the industry. For example, using potatoes as loss leaders in supermarkets can have a catastropohic effect on growers' incomes and is wholly detrimental to the balanced development of horticulture as envisaged by this Bill. I wonder if the Minister has any plans to tackle this problem in the Bill?

The location and the operation of the Dublin wholesale fruit and vegetable market does nothing to improve the efficiency of the industry. Most fruit and vegetable markets in Europe have been moved to outside of cities and this has greatly helped in the distribution of fresh produce. The horticulture industry must have a huge capacity to contribute to farm incomes, to the balance of payments and to meet the need for good wholesome food. Unquestionably, the health of the nation would improve and our very high level of heart disease would decline if we increased our consumption of fresh fruit and vegetables. We have a distinct climatic advantage for growing field vegetables, nursery stock and even protected crops where we can make savings in fuel bills. The use of natural gas must be encouraged in our protected crops industry.

There are a whole range of opportunities in horticulture. In field vegetables, for instance, we should be producing more onions, winter cauliflower and carrots. Teagasc have estimated we could save £7 million in vegetable imports. Brittany, for instance, is a major producer of fresh brassica crops for export. There is no reason why Ireland could not do the same. The onion acreage could be expanded by 600 to 700 acres without any great problem. There are major opportunities to expand apple production provided good storage is available. Here, again, the producer group idea must be considered. The farmers of County Wexford have shown they can successfully grow soft fruit and these crops could be expanded into other parts of the country. The nursery stocks and the mushroom industries can be expanded further but I have already dealt in detail with them.

The other matter that must be attended to is that of plant health. We must not sacrifice our excellent plant health status for short-term expediency. The matter of organic farming has been referred to throughout this debate. I share the view that there are opportunities there but I would not like it to be believed there are unlimited opportunities, that we can produce immense amounts of organically grown food and that it will find a ready market which will compensate the growers for the increased costs involved. I would not like it to be perceived that the conventionally produced food from the farmers of this country is anything other than fully wholesome and is right for the European market. We are very unintensive by Europen standards. Our food is of the very highest quality and I think it would be very dangerous for us to even begin to think that the food produced conventionally on our farms and our horticultural enterprises is anything but of the highest standard. I agree in this respect with what Senator Upton had to say, even if his Munster jersey was a red one and not the same colour as mine.

The opportunities are there. I hope the new board, through its educational and promotional activities and through the collection of accurate market intelligence information — and that is a very important aspect — can help us to exploit these opportunities to the full. I have been going to horticultural conferences for the past 20 years and I am hearing the same things today that I heard 20 years ago in relation to the need to increase efficiency of production, to increase marketing. We are saying exactly the same things we were saying when Senator Hussey was an active member of the Government and that is not so long ago. The board will not solve all the problems of the industry but with the energy and right direction it can do a lot to rectify some of the past ills. I wish the Minister well in his endeavour.

Mrs. Jackman

If we are to finish at 6.30 p.m. and if Senator McGowan wishes to make a contribution I certainly will not delay so that he can get in before 6.30 p.m.

Mr. McGowan

Yes, I may only be getting warmed up.

Mrs. Jackman

May I respond to this Bill as the housewife all are attempting to woo today in an effort to promote the sale of glossy fruit under the Bord Glas Bill. One sentence took me back to my childhood. We all learned at school that we are a country enjoying advantages of climate, labour resources and high plant health status. I have been learning that and teaching that for quite a long time. I wonder has any analysis been done in preparation for this Bill in relation to why the small farmer, medium farmer and large farmer throughout the country has not got orchards? I am from Tipperary and I remember when I was growing up that every farmer had an orchard but that whole traditional lifestyle seems to have gone. Farmers also had gardens where they saw fit to tend and produce their own vegetables but that seems to have disappeared within a number of years. I have yet to see any analysis from the IFA or from the Department of Agriculture and Food as to the reason for the changeover. I do not think it was the impact of our joining the EC. Perhaps it was the exports, perhaps it was laziness, I do not know but I would like to know from the Minister of any research that might have been done in that area.

Overall marketing strategy is something we hear about every day of the week, whether it is associated with Bord Fáilte or Bord Glas but I have yet to go to a conference and see what exactly this marketing strategy is all about. It is a buzz word; it appears to be discussed and debated but never seems to be something we are good at doing. I would like to know what "new" marketing strategy Bord Glas will have in mind when they are trying to get our European counterparts or even ourselves to eat our fruit and vegetables.

In relation to the composition of the board, I wonder if it is within the remit of the Minister to appoint a Dutch expert as one of the five or ten, whichever category the Dutch expert might settle into, or whether it has to be Irish only. The Dutch have often said that they could feed their population on our long acre. I think it would be valuable to have a Dutch expert even if it were only for an interim period. I suggest that we look towards the Dutch for their expertise and I am sure they would give it to us. There is a statistic here as regards what we are actually aiming to compete with; it relates to our nursery industry where our imports are £2 million a year. We just have 1,250 acres and our exports are a mere trickle. If we were to compare with our Dutch counterparts, in a country little more than half our size, with no climatic advantage, they have 1,750 acres of nursery stock and a huge export trade with more than 80 countries and this trade is gowing substantially every year. There is not doubt that a country that has got to that stage of development should certainly be considered, in regard to the composition of the board.

Education was mentioned in the debate. The best gardens throughout the rural parts of Ireland during my childhood were the gardens of the techncial schools where students learned to work the soil with their hands. I do not think it is sufficient to have specialists just at the third level. It is very important to get our young people to understand the soil. I would expect the Minister to think in terms of a module second level education, not just in technical schools or vocational schools as they are know now but in community, comprehensive and particularly voluntary secondary schools. I teach in one of those schools and one particularly interesting module is in the alternative leaving certificate where students have food technology as a module on their course. I have never tasted better vegetables and fruit than those produced by those students. That school is in the inner city and it has only a small patch of ground. They have their mushrooms in tunnels they have their vegetables, even exotic vegetables. The students were probably never in a country garden in their lives. I think we get carried away with work at third level education. I remember thinning turnips when I was a child and doing a lot of work in the garden. I did not consider it an onerous task, but all of that is gone.

We shall concentrate on work on the soil, as the Dutch do. I would like the second level area to be looked at in this context. The students I teach have carried out many surveys on social and environmental studies and they show that the lowest intake in their diet is fruit. They were not aware of it, which was the extraordinary thing. How do you get students to eat fruit? They do not see an apple as Eve did; they do not regard it as an attractive fruit. I would like to push for a way of getting youngsters to eat fruit and vegetables. They are certainly not going to eat it in the boring way it was presented in the past. Bord Iascaigh Mhara are worn out trying to encourage us to eat fish, with little or no positive result. The Minister would probably have the statistics there to tell me whether we have improved on our fish intake in our diet. We probably have, but not to the extent that we, an island, should have improved.

Minister of State at the Department of Finance (Mr. Daly)

Substantially.

Mrs. Jackman

Not the students I have. I am afraid it has not yet come to Limerick, but maybe the Clare students are fed on a diet of fish. It is difficult to get young people to eat fruit and vegetables. They are the parents of tomorrow and the junk food they eat is far more expensive than fruit.

Another point I wanted to mention was that of value added. Our vegetables sent abroad, seeing that we are the furthest from continental Europe, probably will have to have perservatives and additives. I do not know; I am raising that question. Have we the technology to ensure that we can export them out without any deterioration en route? If it is the case that there is deterioration we must look at how we use our vegetables in our own island. I ask the Minister to look at value added. Poultry or pork are being exported as prepared meats, with the benefit of food technology and we should give consideration to the inclusion of vegetables in this context. People want alternative farming and vegetable production has enormous potential in this regard.

Mr. McGowan

I would like to propose the adjournment of the debate until next Wednesday if that is acceptable.

Acting Chairman (Mr. Mooney)

Had you intended to make a contribution to this debate?

Mr. McGowan

Yes.

Acting Chairman

The Chair can allow you some latitude as I understand the Minister will not be coming into the House immediately at 6.30 p.m. for the next business. You would have five to ten minutes if you wish to proceed.

Mr. McGowan

I will be guided by the Chair in this matter. I welcome the Bill, as indeed many people in Ireland will welcome a new initiative in this very important industry. The more one studies the question of agricultural development and the potential for the industry the more one realises the complications.

Ireland is in a very fortunate position at the moment in so far as we have the Presidency of the EC Council. That means our Minister for Agriculture and Food, Deputy O'Kennedy, is in a very good position to help this country. We are fortunate to have also Deputy Kirk who has done trojan work to highlight the importance of the industry. Deputy Walsh has also strongly identified himself as a person with tremendous ability and with dedication to further the lot of those who are committed to agriculture. For that reason I welcome to the House Deputy Seamus Kirk, Deputy Joe Walsh and the Minister from the west of Ireland, Deputy Daly. All are young, energetic, able Ministers who have a commitment to further the development of agriculture. I would like also to welcome Mr. John Bourke and the Chief Executive Officer, Mr. O'Donnell from Donegal, if I may be allowed to give him a special welcome. With his background it is obvious we are on the right track. I have no doubt he has the determination and the ability to make a major contribution to the success of this industry.

On at least two or three occasions in his speech the Minister said he will be flexible. That is important. I have taken special note of the Minister's readiness to listen and to understand that people's concerns are important; he is prepared to listen and to respond and that is the proper approach. I compliment the Minister and his Department and those that are involved in the setting up of An Bord Glas. After I have made this initial response in welcoming the Bill, I will bow to the advice of the Leader of the House.

Mr. Lanigan

I move the Adjournment of the debate until Wednesday next, 14 February, with Senator McGowan in possession. I would like to say that the debate on the motion to be taken now will take place for one and a half hours, with the proposer having 20 minutes and the seconder ten minutes. The Minister will come in at approximately 7.30 p.m. to contribute to the debate. Apart from that, each speaker will have ten minutes and the proposer may wind up after the Minister's speech.

Acting Chairman

Is that agreed? Agreed.

Debate adjourned.