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Seanad Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 28 May 1991

Vol. 129 No. 4

Death of Councillor Fullerton. - Finance Bill, 1991 [Certified Money Bill]: Second Stage (Resumed).

Question again proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

Is dócha gurb é seo an Bille is tábhachtaí dá dtagann os ár gcomhair chuile bhliain mar is í an aidhm a bhíonn ann ná straitéis airgeadais an Rialtais a chur i gcrích. Ar ndóigh, cheana féin i mbliana bhí an Bille Leasa Shóisialaigh ann, agus curtha leis sin anois tá an Bille Airgeadais. Tá sé anéasca ag daoine dearmad a dhéanamh ar an áit a rabhamar ceithre bliana ó shin, ag an am nuair a bhí ráta ard cánach de 58 faoin gcéad, agus ráta íseal cánach de 35 faoin gcéad ann. In imeacht ceithre bliana tá ísliú déanta air sin, go dtí 52 faoin gcéad agus 29 faoin gcéad. Is minic a dúradh gurb é ceann de na fadhbanna agus na lochtanna a bhí ar an tír seo ná an ráta ard cánach pearsanta. Níl aon amhras ann ach go bhfuil cion fir déanta ag an Rialtas chun an fhadhb seo a réiteach.

Tá i gceist ag an Rialtas leanúint den obair seo ach tá an chinnteacht níos mó nuair a chuirtear i gcuimhne go raibh ag an am a thángthas ar an obair seo a dhéanamh fiacha troma ar an tír agus go raibh an fiach náisiúnta ag méadú as cuimse in aghaidh na bliana. Ag an am céanna gur íslíodh na rátaí cánach cuireadh cúrsaí airgid na tíre, trí chéile, faoi smacht. Mar shampla, laghdaíodh an ráta ar a bhfuilimid ag tógáil iasachtaí síos go mór i gcaitheamh na mblianta sin agus, mar sin, tá ag éirí, ó thaobh airgeadais de, le straitéis iomlán an Rialtais. Beidh mé ag caint ar ball ar chúrsaí fostaíochta agus an tionchar a mbeadh súil againn ar an obair seo ar chúrsaí fostaíochta, ach creidim go bhfuil sé thar a bheith tábhachtach go ginearálta go mbeidh rátaí ísle cánach ann.

Creidim gur ceann de na fáthanna gur éirigh leis an Rialtas an obair seo a dhéanamh ná gur fheabhsaigh said go mór na modhanna bailithe cánach a bhí i bhfeidhm sna blianta sin. Níl aon amhras ann ná gurb é ceann de na rudaí ba réabhlóidí dá ndearnadh i gcaitheamh na mblianta sin ná an amnesty a thug an tAire Ray MacSharry isteach sa bhliain 1987, sílim. Ní amháin gur thug sé sin isteach mórchuid airgid, ach thug sé seans do dhaoine a raibh faillí déanta acu sna rudaí seo iad a chur i gceart, agus níl aon amhras ann ná gur thug sé go leor leor daoine nua isteach sa chóras cánach agus go bhfuil daoine ag íoc cánach ó shin i ngeall air sin.

Cuireann sé sin go mór leis an gcreideamh atá agamsa gurb é an bealach ar cheart dúinn a dhul ná simpliú, trí chéile, a dhéanamh ar an gcóras cánach, rátaí ísle cánach bheith i bhfeidhm agus deiseanna éifeachtacha a bheith ann chun iad a bhailiú. Ní mar sin a bhí ach is sa treo sin atáimid ag dul le cúpla bliain agus tá an-mholadh ag dul don dá Aire Airgeadais a bhí ann a thug aghaidh ar an fhadhb seo agus atá tar éis muid a dhíriú sa treo sin. Thar an t-ísliú iomlán sa ráta cánach, tá rud eile fíorthábhachtach déanta, is é sin, tax exemptions a ardú go substaintiúil.

I always believed that the idea of a single person paying tax on a salary of £2,500 upwards was ridiculous and that the idea of a married couple beginning to pay tax on a salary of £5,200, irrespective of family size, made no sense because you wound up with the ridiculous situation of people paying tax and needing State hand-outs to live on. One of the most revolutionary concepts introduced in recent times was the radical increase in tax exemptions. When people talk about the disincentive to work of high tax rates, and particularly of the top band of tax, I often wonder do they think of the reality of somebody earning £60 or £70 per week and paying income tax and the disincentive involved. Therefore, the increase in tax exemptions has been of fundamental importance over the years.

It was a pity that in the seventies the relief for children in the income tax code was done away with. I have never understood how this happened. It is quite obvious to anybody that the increases in child benefit did not in any way compensate for the loss of these benefits. In a country that places great emphasis on the family it seems of fundamental importance that the cost and the importance of children and of families be recognised in the tax code. The Minister in recent budgets certainly gave recognition to children, particularly in low income families. It is of great significance for low paid workers that for a family with five children the tax exemption has gone from £5,500 to £8,900. That is of major significance and only people who are dealing with low paid workers understand the relief felt by people on low incomes at being clear of the tax net when they quite patently cannot afford to pay tax. I hope to see this extended dramatically; and if there is money for tax relief it is in the level of tax exemption that much of this money should go.

I have always felt that in today's terms the idea of a single person paying tax under £5,000 income is unrealistic and I would ideally like to see the threshold for a married couple starting at £10,000 and increasing based on the number of children after that. I will make reference to this again when I am talking about the provision of employment. If the tax code was amended in this way, and continued to progress in the direction it is progressing, it would act as a stimulus to people to go out in the work place, much unnecessary administration would be done away with and, generally, tax income would not fall that dramatically.

There is of course attached to exemptions one problem that hits the low paid worker and that is the question of the marginal rate. A family with five children and an income of £9,500 to £10,000, pay a rate of 52 per cent tax on the amount of income marginally over the exemption level. This can cause problems, particularly if overtime is involved. For a person on a flat rate wage of £8,700 who earns overtime it effectively means that this overtime is taxed at the high rate of 52 per cent. I admit that the 52 per cent rate as it is now is a great improvement on the marginal rate of 60 per cent that applied two years ago; but it still causes serious problems because people are reluctant to get involved in overtime if between PRSI and tax they are penalised at a rate of 60 per cent. I would favour a lower rate of marginal tax in those cases and I suggest that the 48 per cent level might be the level to aim at.

In regard to indirect taxation, we have had two major significant reductions in the general level of VAT. In two years it has gone from 25 per cent to 21 per cent. This will certainly have a significant effect for business and the consumer. It has been a major contributor to holding down the consumer price index. Being involved in business, I felt that high rates of tax provided the temptation for people not to declare all their tax liabilities. Therefore, as with income tax, what we need is, very rigid implementation and lower rates of tax. I look forward to the rate of VAT dropping significantly over the next few years.

When we compared our tax rates here to the tax rates in other countries, and particularly our nearest neighbour, it was overlooked that we were using our VAT code to make up for the loss of rates income, which was abolished in 1977. It is of significance, now that the British Government are moving in the same direction, that the difference between the Irish rate and the British rate is beginning to close dramatically. At the moment the differential is 3.5 per cent. This brings home to us the fact that in the whole basket of taxes you cannot isolate one, you have to take them all together. I have no doubt we can continue to reduce these rates and to come fully into line with the rates in other countries.

To prove my point on the question of tax yield, there is no better example then the increase in the yield from corporation tax. Even though the general rate of corporation tax has been reduced, by elimination of certain exemptions and the tightening up of the system, the total yield from corporation tax is going to increase from £257 million in 1987 to £527 million in 1991. This is of great significance. It proves that a simpler tax system, with fewer exemptions and lower rates, is not only much simpler to administer but is also a much more effective way of collecting tax. I would favour further steps in this direction with the elimination of loopholes or incentives, or whatever one wishes to call them, the lowering of the general rates and a tightening up of the method of collection.

Even though I made use of the business expansion scheme, I think, in general the Minister has to be complimented on the steps he took to reduce and to change certain conditions of that scheme. I appreciate that there has been much olagón from certain sectors regarding this. In general, it must be recognised that this scheme was being used to finance projects not, as was originally intended, namely, for risk capital, but for projects that basically were bank guaranteed. If there is a justification for this type of scheme, and I sometimes have my doubts, I think it has to be within the term of taking risk. Where this is seen not to be so, the Minister is perfectly correct in taking swift and prompt action.

Such schemes do not always recognise the possibilities of development among the smaller, less wealthy sections of the community who would not have access to such funds. I know that when the scheme was set up originally it was thought it would bring money into small venture capital schemes. Time has proved that this was not so. It was not the small hotels, the guesthouses, or farm houses that obtained BES funds but the big conglomerate organisations which would in any event have obtained funding for the projects they had in hand. Our biggest problem in this field is to get money to the small operator on the ground, who will grow organically. It is he who, over time, can provide rapid development in rural areas particularly.

The question of decentralisation is of significant national importance. We hear every day about the problems of emigration, about the problems of traffic in this city, of crime and of social disorder. It was even mentioned today on the Order of Business. One of the biggest problems we face, and which we will have to tackle dramatically in the years to come, is the problem of the centralisation of all services in the greater Dublin area. The relocation of Government Departments outside Dublin has been of fantastic significance to rural cities and towns. Certainly, the provision of places for 900 public servants in Cavan, Galway, Sligo and Ballina has been of major importance to these towns.

Deirtear, má chruthaíonn tú post, go gcuireann tú dhá phost eile ar fáil i seirbhísí atá timpeallaithe ar an bpost sin. Mar sin, tá sé ionann is cinnte, maidir leis an 900 duine a aistríodh siar faoin tuath nó siar go dtí na bailte móra ar fud na tíre, gurb ionann é sin agus 2,700 post a chruthú san iomlán. Má thógaimid meán teaghlaigh de, abraimis, cheathrar nó sheisear, tá tú ag caint ar riar maith daoine, os cionn 10,000. Is ionann é sin agus baile réasúnta mór thíos faoin tír. Ach creidim go gcaithfimid tuilleadh a dhéanamh. Ní fheicim cúis dá laghad — go mórmhór le ríomhairí anois agus an ceangal ríomhaireachta is féidir a chur ar fáil ó háit go háit — nach ndéanfaí tuilleadh den obair seo. Tá sé thar am ag cuid de na comhlachtaí Stáit, go mórmhór iad siúd atá bunaithe ar shaol na tuaithe, ar nós Bhord na Móna, Teagaisc, agus mar sin de, a gceannárais a athrú go dtí an áit a bhfuil siad ag tarraingt as.

Beidh daoine ag cur ina aghaidh sin ach creidim go bhfuil daoine ann, ní amháin atá sásta filleadh ar na bailte tuaithe ach go bhfuil bís agus fonn orthu é sin a dhéanamh mar go gceapann siad go mbeidh caighdeán maireachtála níos airde sna bailte sin ná mar atá acu i láthair na huaire. Bheadh sé mar aidhm agamsa go gcoinneofaí an brú go dtí go mbeidh sé le rá ag chuile dhuine sa tír seo go bhfuil cónaí orthu i bhfoisceact 30 mile d'ionad díláraithe Rialtais de shaghas éigin ina mbeidh deis fhostaíochta ag a gclann. Creidim gur sprioc réasúnta é sin, gur rud é sin a chuirfeadh go mór leis an tuath, go gcuirfeadh sé go mór leis an bailte agus, ag deireadh, go gcuirfeadh sé go mór le cathair Bhaile Átha Cliath, mar ní dóigh liomsa go bhfuil éinne atá ina gcónaí sa chathair seo go dteastaíonn uathu é a fheiceáil ag glanadh soir, siar ó thuaidh i dtreo na gcnoc, siar ó thuaidh go chuile threo agus é ag fás agus ag dul ó smacht agus na tailte glasa atá timpeall ar an gcathair seo a fheiceáil á slogadh de dheasca forbartha gan teorainn.

The effect of the budget on unemployment has been discussed. The whole question of unemployment has come very much to the fore in recent times. I have been involved in the provision of employment for 18 years and I realise that it no easy task. First, one needs capital, which is, obviously a prerequisite to any type of modern development. There are those who thought that in rural areas, for some mysterious reason, one could create employment with no capital. Secondly, you need enterprises to put that capital into and which give a return on profits. Thirdly, you need people and perhaps the third requirement is the most important one.

Over the years I have become very sceptical about employment-giving schemes, about incentives and about specialised tax breaks for the provision of employment. I have come to believe that the only way of creating employment in the future is the creation of a viable competitive economy. People will say that is a right-wing view. I think it is a rational view. I have been working in the area of creating social employment through co-operatives and I have found that you cannot survive in the marketplace if your goods are not competitive. Competitive cost structures are absolutely vital.

I have said consistently over the years that the biggest problems faced by employers are the high payroll taxes, between PRSI and PAYE; the high cost of transport, particularly for those involved in indigenous industry using heavy raw materials, high volume by value; high overhead costs in telecommunications, electricity and in the provision of insurances. That is the reality employers face. There is no employer who, if offered incentives, will not accept them. I have not yet met the employer who, in private, has not admitted that the greatest barriers to development have been the overhead costs in this country.

We are a nation on the periphery of Europe and some of us work on the periphery of the periphery of Europe and the high cost of labour and transport puts us at a total economic disadvantage. I recognise, and anybody in business who is open-minded and fair recognises, that on the budgetary controlled elements of this, the Government have made major strides in recent years. The decrease in the tax rates has been most significant. It has meant that the overhead cost of tax to employees has greatly reduced. I have always maintained that the tax for the many is more important than the tax for the few. There has been great emphasis in certain quarters on reducing the highest rate of tax so as to bring in the entrepreneur and encourage entrepreneurs to work. However, no entrepreneur can produce if the people on the factory floor do not believe there is an incentive for them to produce, on behalf of the company for whom they work. The reduction of tax for the low paid worker is more significant in the long term than selective top rate tax reductions. We have seen major steps in that direction over the past few years.

A budgetary measure that was of minor significance last year has now come to be of major significance, with the changing of the part-time workers Act and the bringing of part-time workers to full PRSI. Last year there were very few full-time workers whose wages dropped under £60 per week. You can take on part-time workers now, and they do not get penalised, although the employer does, in paying 7.5 per cent PRSI on a small income. The second thing the Government have done, on this general overhead front, is the reduction in VAT and the third thing that has happened is the reduction in Government controlled overhead costs. Basically, the general rates of excise duty on things like diesel have not increased, which has effectively meant a decrease.

A very significant step has been taken, in relation to the western areas, by the Minister for Tourism, Transport and Communications in the decision to give some equality in the cost of telecommunications. This is a strategy, a broad package. Even though that item is not part of the budget as such, it is part of the totality of steps being taken by the Government to decrease overhead charges. In my time as a manager, the difference between the new telecommunication charges now and what they were, would be a saving, in the time of about £60,000 on my operation alone. We would have considered it fantastic to have been given a cash grant of £60,000, even over that period of time. It is in this context that one begins to realise the terrible burden placed by high overhead taxes.

If we want to stimulate further development, we have to continue to control the cost side of the equation. We have to continue to decrease, in absolute terms, those taxes that particularly affect the cost of industry, agriculture and tourism. Rather than an increase in grant-aid, in new schemes, in the budget of the IDA, I would prefer to see a reduction of overhead costs by the State.

From the industrialist's point of view, there is another advantage in this. There is no administration involved in getting a smaller telephone bill. There are no application forms to be filled up. You just get a smaller telephone bill. If you apply for grants, much of the time you twist and turn, trying to comply with the terms of schemes that were not tailor-made for your requirements. I do not think this point can be stressed strongly enough. There is always a temptation to hold out the lollipop, to hold out the incentive, in the belief that it will make people happy. In the sixties and seventies, people had enough of that approach. They are looking for something more radical now, something more basic and something very simple. Our cost structures must be put right and we must develop in that way.

There is one other point I would like to refer to in this question of development, namely, the question of capital. It has long been believed in this country that the only source of capital is foreign investment and big investors. We have to reexamine this in the light of the realities before us, which we sometimes ignore. For example, life insurance companies rely mainly on small investors, a large number of people making a small investment, building up to massive sums of money.

There is money available in this country. One of the challenges that faces us is to make that money go around. We have not made that money go around fast enough. Anybody in the west of Ireland would tell you that much of the money paid out by the State is left dead. Some of it is left under mattresses——

Not much now.

——some of it. Much of it is put into the associated banks and left in accounts. The associated banks recycle this money in big ventures in the cities and it is not recycled into the community from which it comes. I know from my own experience that there is money out there, that there is a wealth of development that could be tapped if we had the right structures. We should look at very innovative ways of guaranteeing such structures so that communities would have access to the money already in their own community. I know, for example, in my own community, that the raising of £0.5 million to £1 million, which seems a lot of money, would not be impossible, given the right structures and incentives. This could be done through changes in both the social welfare and tax codes, particularly in relation to that type of money.

A few years ago, I was faced with the problem of raising capital for enterprise in my own area and with the fact that the structures of the co-operative for which I work were not conducive to investment. For example, the basic share capital of the co-op, when I started, would have been in the region of £3,500. Faced with the fact that a monolith, if it got involved in borrowing, could not hope to raise big money and would be at risk if one project failed, I tackled this problem in a totally innovative way. We set up a number of individuals in their own businesses, around a central core advisory service, which was there to help and advise when needed and to keep out of the way when not needed. This advisory service consisted of people who had experience and would be available to help, even to advise, on how to get money from the State sector. Within one year of starting this type of development and with very small State support — perhaps £60,000 or £70,000 — the capital investment between borrowing and grants of the people we set up in their own small businesses was in the region of £300,000. This was a very significant investment in a small area in rural Ireland. If one person failed in their business, they had no major loss and just pulled out. All the other people who set up on their own, in this way, managed to develop and survive.

They would say that the biggest problem all along is not in relation to ideas or management. We were able to give them the management advice, while they were able to do the job technically much better than we could. The biggest problem is the availability of ready cash. Capital grants do not answer this, because they are always attached to goods or capital goods. What is required is the availability of lump sums of ready cash with which they could develop their businesses. We have to look at this question if we are serious about unemployment. We must stop thinking that setting up committees, new incentive schemes, new grants will solve the problem. What is needed is the provision of basic capital to people, low overheads and most important, the attraction of ordinary people with special skills and ability. They must be identified and matched to projects. This is absolutely vital in the provision of employment.

The budget strategy has been going in this direction. The innovation shown by the Minister over the past few years has been: to simplify the code, collect the money efficiently and reduce the basic tax rate for the ordinary taxpayer. I hope the Government will not get deflected from this basic direction. I hope they will continue the policy of tightening up and the simplifying and lowering of rates and that we will see more development in this direction over the next few years.

Finally, I would like to refer to a small point in the Bill. Under section 75 as it relates to road tax, I note that the Minister has made a special exemption for veteran and vintage vehicles. He mentions £10 for a motor bicycle and £20 for other vehicles more than 30 years old.

Cuireadh ar mo shúile dom é le tamall an fhadhb atá ag daoine a bhfuil cónaí orthu ar na hoileáin bheaga amuigh san fharraige, maidir le cúrsaí cháin bhóthair. Ar chuid mhaith de na hoileáin seo tá dornán beag de charranna acu agus ní mór do na daoine a bhfuil cónaí orthu ansin carr eile bheith acu ar an mórthír, carr, ar ndóigh, nach féidir leo mórán tairbhe a bhaint as. Go minic tá tú ag caint ar, b'fhéidir, a ceathair nó chúig mhíle de bhóithre san iomlán ar an oileán agus ní bheifeá ag caint ar mhíleáiste sa bhliain níos mó ná 1,000 míle.

Is iontach trom an t-ualach ar na daoine seo, go mórmhór ar na hoileáin bheaga, cé is moite d'Inis Mór Árann — agus fiú air sin níl an oiread sin míleáiste de bhóithre — go bhfuil orthu cáin bhóthair a íoc. Creidim go bhfeádfadh an tAire, an bhliain seo chugainn, le cúnamh Dé, breathnú ar an gcás atá acu agus eisceacht a dhéanamh de na daoine a bhfuil carranna acu ar na hoileáin amuigh ón gcósta nach bhfuil droichead á gceangal leis an mórthír, ar an gcoinníoll, ar ndóigh, go bhfanfadh na carranna sin ar na hoileáin go buan agus nach mbeadh feidhm ar bith leis an diosca cánach a chuirfí ar fáil dóibh ar an mórthír. Ní dóigh liom go mbeifí ag caint ar níos mó ná, b'fhéidir, 50 carranna agus feithiclí san iomlán. Ní ualach trom a bheadh ann don Stát ach, cinnte dearfa, is rud é a chuirfeadh go mór le leas na bpobal beag sin ar chósta an Atlantaigh atá ag maireachtáil ansin le cianaimsir agus a bhfuil costais troma orthu maidir le chuile ghné den saol, agus ba bhoichte ar fad ní amháin iad féin ach an tír seo uilig dá n-imeodh na pobail as na hoileáin seo.

Ba mhaith liom ardmholadh a thabhairt don Bhille seo, don obair atá á déanamh ag an Aire Aírgeadais, don smacht atá curtha aige ar chúrsaí airgeadais na tíre. Chuaigh rudaí ó smacht ar fad ó dheireadh na seachtóidí go lár na n-ochtóidí. Bhí gá leis an smacht daingean a cuireadh i bhfeidhm, go mórmhór i gcúrsaí caiteachais, agus beidh gá le srian agus le haire a thabhairt do seo go leanúnach. Caithfear a chinntiú nach sleamhnaímid siar ar na sean-drochnósanna a bhí againn agus ag an am céanna go leanfaimid ar aghaidh ag laghdú na gcánacha ginearálta, na cánacha is mó atá an pobal ag íoc agus ar an gcaoi sin go gcuirfear deiseanna níos fearr ar fáil do mhuintir na tíre.

I want to raise a few points and I hope to allow some time for my colleague, Senator Norris, to get in.

First, I would like to condemn the budget on the fact that it has failed to tackle the unemployment problem, regardless of what my colleague, Senator Ó Cúiv, has said. The period of the budget will see unemployment in excess of 250,000 people. This is a great social problem which needs to be tackled. I would like to quote from the Fianna Fáil policy document during the last local elections, when they castigated the then Coalition for their failure to provide employment for 230,000 people, many of them school leavers, and their failure to curb emigration. They said that 33,000 young people were forced to go abroad in the previous two years.

Unemployment is a major problem for many people. Politicians meet families, we meet fathers and mothers who see their children facing a future abroad. They see no future for them in Ireland. They are educating them for another country. We see a land losing its best citizens who do not have the opportunity to contribute to our economy, and to the improvement of our people. They are forced to leave our shores and go abroad. Unfortunately, an acceptance of unemployment has grown over a number of years. It is time we shouted stop, questioned what is happening and ensured that we do something to remedy the matter.

The budget fails in that it does not shift the burden of taxation from the PAYE sector. It is almost discriminatory that the PAYE sector is forced to carry the main burden of taxation. We can see people whose tax bills can be cut from £8 million to £4 million and it is totally unacceptable that somebody on a modest income must pay tax at the level obtaining for the PAYE worker. He is not given the opportunity to negotiate his tax position down to 50 per cent of what is demanded from him by the Revenue Commissioners. This is having another effect on our economy; it is encouraging the voluntary emigration of many of our better educated people. It is encouraging and forcing a brain drain that will be a severe loss to our nation and to our future. These people are important for the future of the country. They are the people who must build the country for the future; they are the people of ideas; they are the entrepreneurs of tomorrow. Yet, they are leaving our shores because of the unacceptable PAYE taxation régime. The budget failed to tackle that aspect.

Another area where the budget fails is in the allocation to the Department of the Environment. We had debates some time ago on a motion of no confidence in the Minister for the Environment and on the Environmental Protection Agency and reference was made on those occasions to the condition of our roads. The Government should seriously look at the Fine Gael proposal for a special local roads fund. The county roads are not maintained at the moment. The moneys paid through motor taxation should be put into a local fund and spent on our county roads. I would like to quote from the Fianna Fáil policy document on county roads and their statement in 1985 at the local elections. They stated:

Fianna Fáil will provide investment for road construction to bring all our national road network up to international standards. Fianna Fáil views with concern the rapid deterioration of the county roads system which represents 80 per cent of the public road network. A special five year programme to assist local authorities deal with the problem will be drawn up for the maintenance of county roads. A special proportion of the annual Exchequer grant for roads will be allocated to funds for this programme. We believe that the preservation of the investment of over 60 years in county roads is essential for the repair of non-county roads.

It refers to moneys for non-county roads under the local improvements scheme. I ask the Government to take on board the policies they adopted during the 1985 election and ensure that the deterioration that has taken place over the past three or four years is remedied and that a proper approach to maintaining, improving, and saving our county roads, is taken on board. As an example of what I am saying, Limerick County Council collected £5.3 million in 1990 on direct local motor taxation and in the same year they spent £2.55 million on county roads. What is the Minister's approach to local charges? He has maintained local charges in the budget.

In the Fianna Fáil document of 1985 on local authority finances, the following comment was made:

Fianna Fáil are totally opposed to the new system of local charges and on return to office will abolish these charges and repeal the legislation under which they are imposed, namely the Local Government Financial (No. 2) Act, 1983. In its place they will introduce new legislation which will end the present unsatisfactory position and put local finances on a sound basis. The legislation will provide that local authorities will receive a guaranteed statutory contribution each year from the central Exchequer. The Exchequer contribution will be sufficient to provide a satisfactory level of necessary services.

I ask the Minister to comment on when it is likely their commitment of 1985——

That is the Minister for the Environment, not the Minister for Finance.

Surely when we talk about financing of any aspects either of local or national government the Minister for Finance is the person to do so? I will give the remainder of my time to Senator Norris.

I would like, first, to express my appreciation to Senator Neville for allowing me the opportunity to speak on this Bill. I am particularly pleased the Minister is here. I would like to indicate a few headings and then just deal with one subject in a little more detail. It is a subject with which I know the Minister finds himself in sympathy, that is, the question of the restoration of the inner city of Dublin.

With regard to the general heading of finance made available for education. I know that my doubting colleague, Senator Honan, may say that should go to the Minister for Education.

No, the Minister for the Environment is responsible for local charges.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

Senator Norris without interruption, please.

I would just like to make a point to the Minister for Finance. Two senior academics, the retiring Provost, Dr. Watts, in an interview broadcast on Sunday, and the incoming Provost, Professor Mitchell, in a statement yesterday, indicated that they felt Trinity College was at some disadvantage comparative to the other third level institutions in terms of capital investment programmes. This is something that bears some looking at particularly since we are moving into the year that commemorates the 400th anniversary of this venerable institution. I do not want to get into too much comparative evaluation. We have a wonderful education system at third level and we can be proud of all the colleges, not just Trinity College but certainly the colleges of the National University. It is something that in this year might be looked at sympathetically.

I noted there are a number of headings in the summary of public expenditure programmes which deal with lottery funding. This is not directly the responsibility of the Minister for Finance but it is something that perhaps he might bear in mind at Cabinet discussions. I mean no slur whatever on the Minister for the Environment or anybody else but it is regrettable that the Government have not lived up to a commitment given some years ago that lottery funding would be independently allocated by an all-party group. Perhaps the Minister for Finance could use his good offices to try to ensure that this happens. It removes suspicion from the political arena.

I noted in the arts, culture and heritage projects a number of useful things such as the National Gallery and the National Heritage projects. I spoke on Adjournment debates, one on the curvilinear greenhouse system at the National Botanic Gardens — we got some money for that — and also on the National Gallery. I know that the Minister for Finance and the Taoiseach are well aware of the significance of cultural tourism and that is one of the reasons they have decided to put in this degree of investment. I welcome that.

I would like to mention one other item of a technical nature, that is, in relation to stamp duty. I have been approached by lobbyists — I am sure the Minister is well aware of the situation — on the idea as to whether it is appropriate that stamp duty should be charged in Ireland where merely the legal end of the transaction takes place through a solicitor's office in Dublin but where the property involved is abroad. I have been approached by a group of professional people on this matter. Perhaps the Minister is aware of the situation and he might like to comment.

I would like to refer to my principal interest, the renewal of the inner city. The Minister will remember that some years ago we had a lengthy debate concerning incentives for the restoration of the 18th century core of the city. After some degree of debate with civil servants from the Department of Finance, who were extremely helpful, certain measures were introduced in the budget about two years ago. The Minister may be able to enlighten me on this or put it on the record because I am afraid I will not be able to remain for very long because of university commitments. How much money has now been taken up under this scheme? I am not aware of any person in the immediate vicinity of the area in which I am principally concerned who has availed of the tax incentive so provided. This needs to be reviewed. I would be very happy to take part in further discussions with the Department of Finance to see how this can be looked at. I know the initial hesitation was that there might be a haemorrhaging of funds. I am sure the Minister will be able to secure the information which will demonstrate that if money has actually made its way back into the public arena as a result of these measures it is very small indeed.

It would be useful for the Minister to look at the possibility of giving capital grants for the restoration of heritage houses. In most of the European and American cities there is some provision for the direct transfer of funds, not just tax incentives. In general terms the operation of section 23 and section 27 has been to bring in large institutional investors and developers and it almost invariably neglects the small person, the individual householder. I could place on the record of the House the fact that one of my colleagues in North Great George's Street received a capital grant from the corporation for some section of the restoration work being carried out and immediately applied that directly to the replacement of the front rake of a slated roof on a listed building. That is a more efficient method of financing the refurbishment of the inner city than tax incentives and reliefs. This situation is taken very seriously.

I have before me a documentation from the city manager which makes it clear that in 1984 the city council adopted a report on 2 January of that year by the city manager making the case for tax incentives and other financial inducements to encourage the provision of new residential accommodation and the renovation of existing premises in run down city areas. Since then we have had the introduction of section 23 tax incentives and so on and there has been some construction. Along the quays where some effort has been made the proportion of residential development there is actually quite small.

I welcome what the Minister is doing in relation to the Temple Bar area. I would like to know a little more about the Temple Bar company which has the responsibility of vetting this. I hold myself in readiness for any consultations the Minister or the Government may wish to have. I know the Temple Bar area and I invested in it in 1978 when I very much doubt if any member of the Government had the slightest idea where it was. Very few people in the country did. The Minister is shaking his head but I would be very surprised if he could prove with documentary evidence that he knew where it was. We established a community centre for the gay community with a discotheque, cinema and so on. We had discotheques for green issues, environmental issues, women's issues, I can point to a great number of small enterprises that sprung up in that area as a direct result of the operation of the Hirschfeld Centre and yet we are specifically excluded from newspaper reports, Government funding and so on.

I do not expect the Minister to endorse the specific activities of that group but it is observable as a phenomenon that it was the energy from that enterprise that started lifting the entire area in 1978. There was nothing else there at all, nobody had heard of it. When you speak of a Left Bank atmosphere you are speaking of an atmosphere generated exclusively by the Hirschfeld Centre. I would be very happy to have some discussion with the people, if the Minister would consider it appropriate, with the intention of assisting in the redevelopment of a very important area of the city.

I thank the Senators who participated in the debate and to Senator Norris I wish to say we are always open to suggestions and representations as to how we can improve the job we are doing, whether it is in relation to Temple Bar or the other areas of inner city development in which quite clearly he has a definite interest, as I have also. I do not have the exact detail but I will find out and will send it to Senator Norris in relation to the uptake, if any, under the scheme. I know it was very disappointing the last time I looked at it in relation to residential refurbishment.

Quite clearly, we are all trying to make the inner city a living city again and bring back people into it. That is why the incentives are the way they are but if they have to be changed or redirected, so be it. We are here to try and do a job. If the manner in which we set out to do it is not successful I have no hang-up about changing it and redirecting it to get a better result. In relation to the Temple Bar area there is quite a lot on the record. I will be glad to deal with any questions in relation to it on Committee Stage.

Regarding the disadvantage suffered by Trinity College, I will certainly examine this matter in relation to capital expenditure. I know it is not my own specific area but there is also the question of allocation of science and technology grants and a whole wide area of capital expenditure. We should all be proud of our third level institutions. Education got priority attention in the Programme for Economic and Social Progress. We need to make more places available in third level for graduates because education is the best investment we can make in this country.

I will deal with the question of stamp duty on Committee Stage. I know the problems that can arise in that area. They can change every day and every week. I will look at the specific aspect raised by Senator Norris. I am aware of some of the problems and that is why I have taken the facility under the legislation to use a ministerial order to exclude areas that need to be excluded. At this stage all that has been brought under the stamp duty regime are those areas that were there traditionally in the financial services such as cheques, mortgages and so on. The rest will be dealt with by ministerial order.

Senator Upton seemed to take from what I said that a mid-term or mini-budget was likely this year. The Senator should have examined the text of my speech more closely before jumping to that conclusion.

In my address to this House on 24 May, I recalled that the main consideration underlying the 1991 budget was the need to maintain the consistent thrust of financial discipline in the face of slower economic growth and an uncertain international economic climate. This is still my priority. My intention was to inform this House of how the trends in the figures to date compare with the budget picture. I made it clear that the outcome to date, while not according with the forecasts in every detail, do not call into question the broad policy thrust set out at the beginning of the year in both the budget and the programme.

I went on to say that while events are progressing broadly in line with expectations as far as growth and employment and the generality of tax revenues are concerned, cyclical influences had adversely influenced some areas of the budget. In particular, stamp duties and taxes on vehicle purchases have been sluggish to date, and social welfare expenditure is coming under some pressure from the unexpected rise of the altered migration trend. The improvement in the Irish economy, which will follow the international recovery and the implementation of the provisions of the Programme for Economic and Social Progress will contribute to a better trend as the year advances. However, it is too early to say whether this will be enough to enable overall tax revenue to retrieve in full the ground lost during these early months.

I went on to stress that, should they occur, unavoidable deviations of this kind should not be equated with a loss of financial discipline. There is a fundamental distinction to be drawn between possible variations from the budget arising from extraneous factors, such as those I have just described, and slippages arising from what could be described as policy failure. The possible variations cited do not alter the essential soundness of the economy, and we remain well placed to progress towards our medium-term budgetary objectives. That would not be the case should more fundamental problems emerge. It was in this context that I concluded that the emerging evidence will be carefully evaluated and that "if action is considered necessary to safeguard our hard-won budgetary stability and our medium-term goals, we will do what we believe to be appropriate".

Senator Cosgrave made reference to pressing the Central Bank to further reduce interest rates. As the House will be aware, improvements in the environment for Irish interest rates, including money market liquidity conditions and reductions in interbank interest rates, led to the recent reduction of 0.5 per cent in retail interest rates, which was a welcome development for mortgage holders and businesses. It is the policy of the Central Bank, which has the primary responsibility for Irish interest rates, to foster a level of interest rates as low as possible consistent with exchange rate stability and the maintenance of low inflation. While the bank can influence the market, it cannot dictate the underlying market conditions, or hold rates at any particular level against an established market trend. Any attempt to push rates below the level indicated by the market would result in a loss of official external reserves. Therefore, any such reduction could not be sustained and could lead to higher rates in the longer term.

International market conditions are a major factor in determining the level of Irish interest rates and further progress in reducing Irish rates will be heavily dependent on the international environment. Given our low inflation rate and strong balance of payments position, we should be in a position to profit from favourable international developments, particularly in regard to the narrow band EMS countries, as they occur. Such favourable developments would be more than welcome.

Senator Staunton claimed that the Irish tax system is biased against the use of labour. While that may have been true in the past, the situation has changed substantially since 1988. During the last three years the accelerated capital allowances on plant, machinery and industrial buildings have been phased down in most cases from 100 per cent prior to 1 April 1988 to 25 per cent from 1 April 1991 and they will finally terminate from 1 April 1992. This has removed the major bias in the tax system for firms to use capital assets in substitution for labour.

Recent years have also seen substantial pro-employment changes in the income tax system. There have been large increases in the exemption limits, and the introduction of the child addition to them, as I outlined in my opening speech. The standard band has been extended by over 40 per cent. The top rate of tax has been reduced from 58 per cent to 52 per cent, while the standard rate has been reduced from 35 per cent to 29 per cent. These changes have significantly reduced the tax wedge, about which Senator Staunton was expressing concern.

In the 1987-88 tax year, it cost at most £3.28 for an employer to pay an extra £1 to a single employee on the top rate of tax: now it costs at most £2.79. Also, of course, it must be remembered that the vast bulk of taxpayers are not on the top rate. By and large the group we are talking here in percentage terms is about 12 per cent of the total taxpayers. That is what we are talking about. When we talk about this throwaway cliché of it costing an employer £3 to give a £1 increase, we are talking about 12 per cent of the taxpayers. At the standard rate, which applies to the bulk of our taxpayers, it used to cost an employer at most £1.96 to pay an employee an extra £1; now it costs £1.77.

Senators Staunton and Upton speculated on whether I was moving away from the income tax rates objectives set out in the Programme for Economic and Social Progress. I can allay their fears: I am not. Let me repeat what the programme says:

The Government have, accordingly, undertaken to make further improvements in income tax, according as economic and budgetary circumstances permit, over the next three years. The key objective is that the standard tax rate, now 30 per cent, will be further reduced, to 25 per cent by 1993; there will also be further movement towards a single higher rate.

As I said in my budget speech, the Government's aim will be to reduce both the standard and top rates of tax by 2 per cent in each of the next two years.

Senator Staunton also mentioned the business expansion scheme, claiming that I changed course on the scheme in March under pressure from those affected by my budget changes. I am glad of the opportunity to refute that suggestion. The fundamental restructuring of the scheme, which I announced in January, is a fact, and the Bill provides accordingly for its implementation. The key elements of what I introduced in the budget remain. Shipping, hotels, guesthouses and self-catering accommodation are excluded from the scheme, the company limit on fund-raising under the scheme has been reduced and a lifetime cap has been imposed on the amount on which an individual can obtain relief. The transitional measures, which were announced in March, are no more than that; they do not in any way overturn the basic reorientation put in place on budget night. They apply exclusively to companies which had entered into contractual commitments on or before budget day in anticipation of BES funding, and which meet certain other conditions. I make no apologies for this.

Whatever one might think about the wisdom of companies entering into such commitments before obtaining the necessary funds for them, the Government, as I have said already, were not in the business of putting businesses out of operation, especially small businesses. These arrangements are transitional, not permanent: they expire on 31 August, they apply only to a limited number of companies, and they apply only to companies which meet the relevant conditions. To qualify for BES funding, any subsequent projects will have to meet the conditions I outlined in the budget.

Senator Staunton also argued that the existence of asset-backed sectors in the BES meant that genuine risk projects were finding it difficult to raise funds. I can readily agree with this view. The justification for the BES is as a means of assisting the raising of genuine risk capital. One of the key reasons I took the measures in the budget was to refocus the scheme on smaller, riskier ventures. Such ventures should have a much better chance of raising BES funds now that the more asset-backed sectors have been excluded.

Indeed, one of the measures I announced on 12 March was very directly concerned with preserving the focus on risk: that is the prohibition on onlending of BES funds to subsidiaries. This is now provided for in section 17 of the Bill. Onlending of funds was being used as a mechanism to shift risk away from the investor; this section aims to ensure that investors who obtain BES relief carry the risks of genuine equity participants in the investee company.

Senator Staunton asked whether the £500,000 BES limit should not be higher, and suggested a figure of £1 million. I could not agree to this. A higher figure would clearly add substantially to the cost to the Exchequer and the general taxpayer. Moreover, the figure provided for will ensure that the available investment funds are spread across as many projects as possible, rather than being concentrated on a few larger ones, as was the case. I am satisfied that the £500,000 is perfectly adequate for the smaller, riskier ventures on which the scheme is being refocused; the vast bulk of BES companies in the past have raised less than this. The BES was not intended to be a limitless source of funds, and there is nothing to stop a company raising other funds apart from the BES. I would also point out to Senator Staunton that the higher the limit the more likely it is that asset-backing will again begin to divert BES funds away from the riskier companies, about which he expressed particular concern.

Senator Staunton criticised the increase in VAT from 10 to 12.5 per cent as being inflationary. I repudiate this suggestion totally. The VAT changes constituted a package aimed at bringing our system clear into line with EC requirements and this only partly funded the further reduction in the mainstream rate. The benefits to consumers of the two percentage points reduction in the standard VAT rate far outweighs the low rate increase. If the Senator looks at the whole picture he will see that the VAT package returns £37 million from the Exchequer to consumers.

As for the effects of the VAT changes on tourism, again the Senator's views are misplaced. First, I must point out that tourists will benefit from the standard rate reduction on many everyday commodities, including drink, petrol and gift purchases. I have also held the 10 per cent rate for tourist accommodation and short term hire of cars, boats and caravans, pending further harmonisation discussions at EC levels. However, in negotiations to date, there has been little or no support among other member states for my view that meals should also be low-rated after 1992, nor have there been any formal Commission proposal that this should be the case. Accordingly, I began the process of adjusting the VAT rate on meals in this year's budget.

Many references were made both here and in the Dáil to statements supposed to have been made by Commissioner Schrivener in relation to the particular aspect of meals but I can assure this House, as I did the other House, that no such proposal has emanated from the Commission and there is no sign of such a proposal. This was a point that was made in representations to Senators and TDs from the hotel industry.

The increase in the 10 per cent rate on fuels was consequent on emerging EC decisions. This, too, should be seen in the context of a general reduction in VAT. I would point out, moreover, that the less well-off sections of the community, those dependent on long term social welfare, are in receipt of weekly free fuel allowances which, in designated smokeless areas, can be topped up by the weekly £3 smokeless fuel allowance. In addition, I increased rates of welfare payments this year by more than the rate of inflation.

I would like to refer to some of the points raised by Senator Staunton in relation to the Structural Funds. As he has said, the whole country is classified as an Objective 1, or less-developed, region for Structural Funds purposes. This is also the case for Greece and Portugal. This enables us to secure Community co-financing on a national basis for our structural development measures and to plan and implement our development proposals in a coherent and strategic manner to achieve the optimum results for the country as a whole and its sub-regions.

I appreciate the concerns of parts of the country that they are at a disadvantage in securing investment as against what might be seen as more attractive locations within the country. The development agencies attempt, with some degree of success, to ensure a balanced spread of new industrial investment to redress existing imbalances. Ultimately, however, we cannot turn away a worthwhile investment if the investor insists on a location different from our first preference.

The issue of access to markets is, of course, crucial to the economic development of the more peripheral and disadvantaged areas of the country. It is for this reason that the operational programme for peripherality has the twin aim of improving access between Ireland and the rest of the Community and of improving access within the country to the main ports and airports.

Senator Cosgrave raised the question of price differences on both sides of the Border. I would point out that the significant indirect tax reductions here in 1990 and 1991 along with the recent United Kingdom increases have narrowed price differences significantly and, consequently, the incentive to shop in Northern Ireland has been reduced very considerably. The difference in the respective standard rates of VAT has been narrowed to 3.5 percentage points from 10 percentage points at the start of 1990. This change has had an impact across a wide range of consumer purchases such as electrical goods and toys.

Price differences on excisable goods, which have given rise to cross-Border shopping in the past, have also been considerably reduced. A gallon of premium petrol is now only for example, about 30p cheaper in Northern Ireland compared with a difference of about 60p in 1989. Furthermore, there is now little or no difference in the price of a standard bottle of whiskey and a packet of 20 cigarettes between the two parts of the island compared with differences of about £1 for spirits and about 25p for 20 cigarettes in favour of Northern Ireland in 1989. Of course, Senators will appreciate that price differences could still persist for other reasons, for example, differences in distribution costs and in traders margins.

I believe I have covered most of the points raised by Senators during the Second Stage debate. Senator Norris asked specifically about the section 21 relief that was introduced in 1985 providing for the cost of refurbishing a building containing two or more residential units. Up to the last budget the qualifying expenditure could only be allowed for set-off against the rental income from the individual refurbished property and not against all rental income. Since budget day it can now be applied against all rental income but only where the refurbished property is located in the designated areas.

This is an added incentive to try and get people to live in the inner city. We have no figures yet for the cost of the refurbishing allowance because it would be hidden in the cost figure for the entire section 23 purchase. It was unlikely to be significant because most of the cost was incurred for the construction of the section 23 properties which bears out the Senator's view that it is likely it is an incentive that has not been used very widely as yet. I will be glad to respond to specific questions during the course of Committee and Report Stages.

Question put.
The Seanad divided: Tá, 25; Níl, 12.

  • Bennett, Olga.
  • Bohan, Eddie.
  • Byrne, Seán.
  • Cassidy, Donie.
  • Conroy, Richard.
  • Dardis, John.
  • Fallon, Seán.
  • Finneran, Michael.
  • Foley, Denis.
  • Hanafin, Des.
  • Haughey, Seán F.
  • Honan, Tras.
  • Hussey, Thomas.
  • Keogh, Helen.
  • Kiely, Rory.
  • Lanigan, Michael.
  • Lydon, Don.
  • McKenna, Tony.
  • Mooney, Paschal.
  • Mullooly, Brian.
  • Norris, David.
  • Ó Cuív, Éamon.
  • Ormonde, Donal.
  • Ryan, Eoin David.
  • Wright, G. V.

Níl

  • Cosgrave, Liam.
  • Doyle, Avril.
  • Harte, John.
  • Hourigan, Richard V.
  • McDonald, Charlie.
  • Naughten, Liam.
  • Neville, Daniel.
  • Ó Foighil, Pól.
  • O'Reilly, Joe.
  • O'Toole, Joe.
  • Ross, Shane P. N.
  • Staunton, Myles.
Tellers: Tá, Senators Wright and E. Ryan; Níl, Senators Cosgrave and Neville.
Question declared carried.
Agreed to take remaining Stages today.
Sitting suspended at 1.50 p.m. and resumed at 2.30 p.m.
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