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Seanad Éireann debate -
Thursday, 6 Jun 1991

Vol. 129 No. 8

Order of Business.

It is proposed to take item No. 2, the Fisheries (Amendment) Bill, 1990, Second Stage. It is proposed that the business of the House will conclude not later than 4 p.m. There will be a sos between 1 p.m. and 2 p.m.

On the Order of Business, may I ask the Leader of the House if, over the next week or two, he would make time available for a debate on developments in the European Communities? This is a matter of great importance. The Seanad has always given a lead in the past in having these debates. We have fallen a bit behind in that in recent times. Over the next few weeks there will be time available and with the inter-governmental conference developments and so forth I would like to ask the Leader if he would positively consider that request.

I would like to refer again to the question of the foreign affairs committee. I asked about it yesterday. It is a subject of continuing interest to this House. There is a motion down in my name on the supplementary Order Paper seeking in very detailed form the establishment of such a committee. I refer again to the newspapers. The Irish Times reported today that the Taoiseach, Deputy Haughey, ruled out the setting up of a Dáil foreign affairs committee in the short term. So it is now being referred to as a Dáil committee. I would like strong reassurances from the Leader of the House that this will not be a Dáil committee. This House has taken the lead in seeking the establishment of a foreign affairs committee and would the Leader of the House not agree that it is appropriate that this matter should be debated soon in this House to provide a context in which the Government can come to a decision on it?

Finally, I would like to refer to something I intended to refer to yesterday but it slipped my mind. I am sure the House would like to send its good wishes to all the young people who are sitting examinations at this time of the year. It is a particularly gruesome experience, as I recall, and relevant to the debates on education that take place frequently in this House. I welcome indications from the Minister for Education that she is going to broaden the whole situation and include a greater degree of assessment, particularly in the light of the fact that there was a protest yesterday by young people about the examination system.

I think if you served as a member on a local authority you would find that some of these matters would not even be appropriate to local authorities.

But then I have not.

You should try it some time.

He nearly did.

Thank you, a Chathaoirligh. I thank you for your advice in relation to what is relevant to a local authority as I am in the process of trying to get myself elected to one. May I ask the Leader whether there have been any developments in relation to his concern about the way business is conducted here, particularly the Order of Business? Some time ago he expressed concern about making changes. Have there been any developments in that regard?

I would like to support Senator Manning's request to the Leader for a debate on European affairs. I feel strongly that we should discuss this. Quite often Europe now decides everything and I support Senator Manning's appeal to the Leader for a debate on European affairs.

Senator Norris took the words out of my mouth in relation to the foreign affairs committee. I wanted to say a few words and to ask a few questions of the Leader of the House. Those of us who were pressing for the establishment of this Oireachtas foreign affairs committee were very pleased to learn, through the grapevine, a couple of months ago that the Government were running with the concept and that the Taoiseach was involved in consultations in regard to Deputy Lenihan being acceptable as chairman of that committee which, I understand, was the position as far as my party were concerned. It seemed that a consensus had developed which was going to lead to the formation of this committee in the context of our being the only country in the European Community which does not have a foreign affairs committee. I was astonished to read authoritative articles in the national newspapers yesterday and the day before saying that the Government were, to an extent, shelving this, and that this committee would not be formed. I would ask the Leader of the House whether what we are reading in the papers is correct, that the apparant shelving and the pushing off is because of the supposed displeasure of the Taoiseach with comments made by Deputy Lenihan in his recent book?

That is not relevant. It is not a subject matter for the Order of Business.

It is hugely relevant. I have to say this to the Leader of the House on the formation of this foreign affairs committee.

If we are going to order our business in the morning on the basis of what we read in newspapers we are going to have a lot of difficulty.

With respect, if authoritative journalists write articles we have to pay a certain amount of attention to them——

They should not become the subject matter of the Order of Business.

The establishment of the foreign affairs committee is and if this issue is peripheral to that and the reason for the supposed shelving, the point basically is that we want that committee established and internal affairs relating to whether or not Deputy Lenihan is acceptable to the Taoiseach is irrelevant to this part of the House. He is acceptable to us as chairman. I am sure others would be. I respectfully ask the Leader of the House to ask the Taoiseach to get on with the establishment of this committee, independently of these extraneous issues.

I, too, very much favour a discussion on the whole EC situation at this time. I would marry that very closely with a request which I have made, with others, for a debate on agriculture in this House. I would remind the Leader through you, a Chathaoirligh, that the position in agriculture is worsening steadily and while we had a debate on it in the not too distant past I would ask him very earnestly for a debate at an early date. It could be taken as part of a debate on the EC communities. That is a matter of great urgency. The position of Irish farmers is such that it warrants a very in-depth debate. Can the Leader of the House tell us that there will be a debate and can he tell us approximately when that debate may be?

Secondly, I want to ask once more when can we expect the long awaited debate on health? The health position is worsening very steadily and I would ask the Leader of the House when we can have a meaningful and in-depth debate on the whole health situation because the position is extremely serious for certain categories of our population.

I would like to suggest to the Leader of the House that we cannot run the business of this House on the basis of newspaper reports. I am referring, of course, to what other Senators have said. I have only been six years in public life but one of the first lessons I learned was that you can only believe 10 per cent of what you read in newspapers. I think it is a very bad precedent.

Five per cent of what Fianna Fáil says.

People are quoting newspapers left, right and centre on the Order of Business. Any experienced Senator would know that you can only believe 10 per cent of what you read in the newspapers.

I agree with that. It is a bad precedent to establish.

What does Daddy say?

Behave yourself.

I would like to support Senator Manning's call for a debate on European affairs. Within this year we are going to have decisions made on economic, monetary and political unions in the community. We are also going to have reform of the Common Agricultural Policy before December, I understand, and we are going to have decisions made in the GATT. All these matters fundamentally affect our economy and our political scene. I would like to support the call for that.

I would like to support Senator Upton also on the question of the Order of Business in this House. Last week we had an example of a waste of time. One and a half hours was spent on trying to arrange the Order of Business. The only other previous experience I had in politics, was in a House in which we had 518 Members, working in nine official languages, and we were usually able to get the Order of Business arranged inside 15 minutes. There is a disgraceful waste of time in this House on the Order of Business. I give another example. We spent about five hours here recently discussing the exchange of students and academics with the US and we were only allowed about two hours to debate the Irish educational system. There is something grossly wrong with that kind of allocation of time. I would like to support Senator Upton's call for a look at how we allocate our time, how we arrange our Order of Business, because at present quite frankly it is not satisfactory.

I did not intend speaking on the Order of Business but a number of statements have been made regarding the difficulties about ordering business. I just want to recall for the House that we have had this discussion before and there is a sense of déjà vu in this discussion. The last time we had the discussion after a number of rows on the Order of Business, after interminable wrangles about various aspects of it along the same lines as Senator Raftery has outlined and, as Senator Upton said earlier, we then decided that it would be discussed at the Committee on Procedure and Privileges. The reality was that a number of proposals came through the Committee on Procedure and Privileges which are still hanging fire and Members of the House know this.

I am not involved in the local elections but over the last number of weeks people have, quite justifiably, apart from making jokes about it, tried to raise matters of important local interest. The opportunities to do so are very restricted in this House. We put forward the view, which was strongly supported by people from all sides, of the need to have a topical hour in which people could raise those issues which, to quote your words, are very often inappropriate to the Order of Business and those points could be made in an ordered and structured way, with due notice. We also put forward the view, and it was agreed at Committee on Procedure and Privileges, that the Private Members' time should be more frequent and also should be for a shorter period of time. I understand that gave difficulties to certain groups but I want to make the point that the answers have been provided and that we are awaiting agreement to those answers.

People raise things on the Order of Business. Items have been raised for the Adjournment for tonight. They are clearly items that people are under pressure to raise because of involvement in their local areas. I think that local, national and international issues could be raised in a more structured way than on the Order of Business and I think we have found the way to do that. The Committee on Procedure and Privileges have discussed it at length and people should grasp the nettle and see to it that discussion always gives an outlet and a direction to energy and to ideas. That is what we should be doing.

A number of matters have been raised on the Order of Business, many of them relating to news items. There is one major aspect which all sides of this House would welcome, the fact that at long last talks on Northern Ireland and, indeed, on this whole country are going to start and that a date has been fixed for them. We look forward in due course to a discussion here and a debate on our Order of Business. It is the best news we have had for a long while.

I should like to ask the Leader of the House if it will be possible for him to allocate time to debate motion No. 50 before the summer recess. It is quite disturbing, looking at television programmes, to see the deteriorating situation in many countries in Africa. I would further ask, Sir, if you would consider introducing the facilities in Standing Orders and perhaps invite the United Nations Commissioner for Refugees to address the House on this most upsetting topic and the plight of refugees in a number of African countries.

Senator Manning and others asked for a debate on development in the European Communities and he asked for it within a few weeks. Obviously it is something to which I would give great consideration. We will endeavour to do something about it within a few weeks. It could be two or three weeks or thereabouts, but certainly it is something I will consider very seriously and I will come back to the Senators on that point.

Senator Norris and others asked about the foreign affairs committee. I can only repeat what I said previously, that my information was that it would be set up within this term. I am hopeful that there would be Seanad representation on that committee. Senator Upton asked about changes in the Order of Business. Clearly this is something that has been discussed and is an ongoing discussion at Committee on Procedure and Privileges, but for the moment I find that I have to live within the rules of the House. If they are changed then I will live within the amended rules of the House. Senator Hourigan asked about agriculture and a debate on EC matters. Obviously he can include elements of agriculture within the Common Agricultural Policy and changes in agriculture generally. I have not and I have never given in recent times any indication of having a debate on health.

Senator Haughey and Senator Staunton referred to the foreign affairs committee and I have dealt with that. Senator Raftery also referred to the foreign affairs committee, to European affairs and to the Order of Business. I have noted what Senator Conroy said. We all share his views regarding the Northern Ireland situation. I said it in the past and I repeat we all live in hope in regard to that problem. At this point I have no proposals, much as I agree with the importance of it, for having a debate on item No. 15.

Order of Business agreed to.
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