Seanad Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 10 Jul 1991

Vol. 129 No. 16

Trade and Marketing Promotion Bill, 1991: Committee and Final Stages.

Sections 1 to 5, inclusive, agreed to.

SECTION 6.

Question proposed: "That section 6 stand part of the Bill."

Mr. Howard

On section 6, I require clarification of subsection (6) but before I address my question to the Minister, may I very briefly thank him for the very comprehensive response he gave to the Second Stage discussion? May I also say how confident and pleased I am about the command and understanding the Minister has displayed in relation to this whole area.

Section 6 (6) states:

The Board shall, in respect of the promotion, assistance or development by the Board of the marketing of any goods or services in relation to which a Minister exercises any function, act in consultation with that Minister.

I hope it will be a simple question for the Minister to clarify, but what exactly are we talking about and what type of functions would he envisage would require the board to consult with the Minister?

Minister of State at the Department of Industry and Commerce (Mr. Leyden)

This provision is taken from 1959 Act, amended slightly to take account of the expanded functions of the board. This section provides that the new board would consult with the relevant Minister responsible for any sector which the board may be considering assisting. This will ensure that there is no unnecessary duplication or conflict of activities between different agencies of the State in their activities aimed at developing any particular sector. For instance, I feel it is vital from a policy point of view that any Government in the future would be aware of what activities the board would be undertaking at a particular time and that we would have no duplication of services.

Mr. Howard

I accept that. Would the Minister have an example?

Mr. Leyden

For example, Bord na Móna consult with the Department of Energy in relation to their remit and, in relation to the food industry, the Minister for Agriculture and Food would be involved in that area. But I think it is very important that the Government and the Minister responsible would be made aware by this board of any changes or any areas where it is assisting. We also keep very closely in touch with the board in relation to its representives. At the moment a senior executive of my Department is on the board of Córas Tráchtála. That ensures a co-ordinated approach between the work of the board and particularly the work of my Department in relation to trade and marketing. There is a co-ordinated approach between the new board and the Department so that we would be aware of any departure from the standard procedure. We do not consult on every particular issue. These would be major new departures in relation to the remit of the board of which the Department would be made aware and which would be carried out in consultation with the Department.

That primarily is the purpose of this section, which is included in the 1959 Act, although amended slightly to take account of the expanded functions of the board. This has been the practice by the present Córas Tráchtála who are also an advisory body to my Department and that role will be continued in the future.

There is another very important aspect. The purpose is to avoid double funding the same activity by two Departments. It is very important that we would be kept informed of departures and developments so that we could ensure that other Departments or other areas would not be double funding particular projects. For instance, the IDA had a major role and responsibility in the amalgamation of NADCORP. It is important that both organisations would not be funding the same type of project. I hope I have explained to Senator Howard the reason for this subsection.

Mr. Howard

By and large, I accept what the Minister has said. However, I am not totally satisfied on it. I have a theory that if you give an organisation responsibility and a job to do, you give them the maximum freedom to do it, but a strict interpretation of this could mean there is no function they would actually be expected to perform but that some Minister had an interest in it. Therefore, you could find a situation in which they were going to be continually restrained in their activities because they have to continually look over their shoulders in case they are stepping on dangerous ground. I believe there is no function they would be performing but that some Minister would have an interest in it. However, I understand from the Minister's reply that it would be used only in a very general way and that the Minister anticipates — I am sure he will confirm this to me — that the need for ministerial intervention or ministerial consultation would only be on a rare occasion.

Mr. Leyden

Again, I am delighted Senator Howard has teased this issue out, because it is a very important section in the Bill. It is very important that this is placed on record at this time and that I have this opportunity in the Seanad, as opposed to the Dáil, to make this point. The real purpose of this section is to ensure that where the new board would be considering an application for assistance from another semi-State organisation — I give the example of Bord na Móna — it would be very important that the Minister for Industry and Commerce would inform his colleague in Government that such an application was before his Department. That would ensure there would not be duplication of assistance from Energy and Industry and Commerce for the same project at a particular time.

Really, it is a matter of co-ordination more than anything else. That would apply, for instance, to the Electricity Supply Board or a food agency that might be involved. We would consult with and inform the relevant Minister with responsibility for that agency or organisation in order to avoid the possibility of duplication of grant assistance or aid in the particular area. That is the whole purpose of the provision and it has not created any difficulty to date. It is not included for the purpose of delaying any worthwhile project. It would be a very speedy consultation which would be dealt with immediately by our senior staff in consultation with the staff of the other Department involved. I think it is a good provision and I thank the Senator for raising the point.

Question put and agreed to.

SECTION 7.

Question proposed: "That section 7 stand part of the Bill."

Mr. Howard

I have a query on similar lines to the earlier amendment. Section 7 (1) says:

The Minister may give the Board such general policy directives as he considers appropriate having regard to the provisions of the Act.

In relation to the earlier section I suggested that problems could arise here. With regard to the Minister giving general policy directives as he considers appropriate, I am trying to ensure that An Bord Tráchtála will have the maximum freedom to go into the marketplace and that the minimum restraints will be imposed. Whether it involves a change of Minister, a change of Government or anything like that, the general policy directives of a Minister can change from time to time. I want an assurance from the Minister that my fears are not well founded. If I can get such an assurance I will be quite happy.

Dr. McCarthy

I am concerned about the views expressed by Senator Howard. Effectively, he is trying to suggest that this board should be autonomous, that it should have its own direction and its own policy distinct and separate from the Government of the day and the Department of Industry and Commerce of the day. That would be totally out of line with the function of the body. This body has to be answerable. As structured it will have to be answerable to the Department of Industry and Commerce. There is no question in my mind but that this body should not be an autonomous.

Mr. Leyden

This section enables the Minister for Industry and Commerce to give general policy directives to the new board. Senators will notice that the provision is in relation to general policy directives. It is not intended that the Minister should have powers in relation to the day to day undertakings of the board. This is similar to provisions in other Acts, for example, the Science and Technology Act, 1987. Senator Howard and Senator McCarthy raised these points. In relation to policy in 1987 the Government, through the Minister decided that there should be concentration on indigenous companies. Also at that time the Government gave a policy directive that Córas Tráchtála should raise more funds for the sale of their services. That again was a general policy directive. The Government can decide, for instance, to react to international situations for example in relation to Iraq, the Gulf, Kuwait and the opportunities which exist there at the moment, the Government would request the new board to act in relation to that particular area of development. Regarding the democratic position in eastern Europe the Government, through the Minister, would indicate to the board of Córas Tráchtála that there should be a particular concentration in that area with a view possibly to opening new offices. The decision to open a particular office would be a matter for the board but the overall policy directive would come from the Minister and the board would act in accordance with the policy of the Minister of the day and the Government of the day. This would then be the responsibility of the new board to implement through the policy directive set out by the Minister. However, this would only arise on particular issues, but certainly not on day to day issues. That would not be the policy of the board.

There is co-ordination of activities between my Department and Córas Tráchtála in their schedules and in their programmes for particular years, which are put before the board in the early part of a year, or at the end of a particular year. The Government would be aware of the general outline of activities being proposed by the new board and that is the policy which will be pursued by the Government for the foreseeable future.

Question put and agreed to.

Sections 8 to 15, inclusive, agreed to.

Title agreed to.

Bill reported without amendment and received for final consideration.

Question proposed: "That the Bill do now pass."

Minister of State at the Department of Industry and Commerce (Mr. Leyden)

Sir, I would like, as fellow Roscommon constituency representatives, to express my appreciation for your courtesy and consideration to me and my staff and to the Senators who have been so helpful in their contributions here today. I want to express my appreciation because we have had an opportunity of teasing out some of the issues in this House. It is important to mention again — it has already been mentioned by Members here — that the staff of both organisations will come together and there will be no lessening of their opportunities for this board. In fact, there will be greater opportunities for the staff of the Irish Goods Council and Córas Tráchtála under this new board.

I am delighted with the co-operation and assistance I have received here in this House and I thank them. I want to take this opportunity to wish this new board every success in the years ahead. This is a very historic occasion when this House agreed to this decision. I want to thank all sides for their co-operation because it is a unanimous decision of this House that this Bill be passed.

Dr. McCarthy

I would like to thank the Minister and his staff for the expeditious way they presented the Bill to this House. It is timely, as I said earlier, and appropriate in relation to oncoming events of the Single Market. I would like to congratulate the members of both organisations who in the past have served us extremely well. The Irish Goods Council on the home market and CTT on the international market achieved a lot. I believe the unity of purpose that will be achieved by the new board amalgamating the two bodies will ensure that Irish trade and marketing will be to the forefront and of the highest international standards.

Mr. Howard

I wish to join in the atmosphere of mutual goodwill that is a feature of many occasions in this House. I thank the Minister for the very open, co-operative and competent manner in which he approached this debate and the explanations he gave to the points I raised put my fears to rest. I want to thank the Minister's staff and the staff of the two boards and wish them every success in this new organisation. Whether it is regeneration or whatever, it is always a good thing. I am sure there will be a new desire to go out there and market and promote the products of this country to the benefit of the economy.

Question put and agreed to.

Mr. Fitzgerald

Cuirfimid an Seanad ar athló go dtí a hocht a chlog. As agreed on the Order of Business we will adjourn now until 8 o'clock when we will take Items Nos, 4 and 5 on the Order Paper.

Sitting suspended at 6.40 p.m. and resumed at 8 p.m.