The Order of Business for today is as follows. From now until 6 p.m. all Stages of the Merchant Shipping Bill. There will be a sos from 6 p.m. to 6.30 p.m. From 6.30 p.m. to 8 p.m. we will take Item No. 20, Motion No. 49, which is the Indepenent motion. From 8 p.m. to 10 p.m. we take the Electoral (No.2) Bill, Second Stage, to conclude.
Order of Business.
Before I call Senators on the Order of Business, I want to clarify one point in relation to Item No. 20, Motion No. 49. Since my ruling last Thursday on the Order of Business there have been doubts about whether the motion is sub judice. In the interim I have given careful consideration to the sub judice aspect of the subject matter of this motion and indeed I have had informal consultation with legal experts. I have now decided that, as the matter rests, the motion as it appears on the Order Paper is in order for debate today.
May I thank you, a Chathaoirligh. I think it is most gracious of you.
May I join with you, a Chathaoirligh, in welcoming our French colleagues to the Upper Chamber of the Irish Parliament today. They are indeed welcome. I thank you also for the clarification you have just given the House in relation to the Private Members' Business tonight. May I make a plea that we all spend a full day discussing this important issue as soon as we have the Supreme Court judgement? I think it would be far more constructive. I would hope that, even at this stage, we could have an indication from the Leader of the House of his willingness to allow us a full day to put our views on the record and, hopefully, get a ministerial response to this most important issue that has been with us now for some weeks.
May I also ask tht we be allowed time in the immediate future to discuss the discrepancies in the two reports in Greencore? Some £1.5 million of taxpayers' money later, all we have is confusion. It is most important that this House gives as much time as is needed to clarify this matter and that we get the Minister for Industry and Commerce to come to the House to respond to our many concerns.
Over the past number of weeks I have raised with the Leader of the House on a number of occasions — and it has been raised on all sides — the need to have a debate on the situation in Northern Ireland. I have calculated that since we began asking for this debate almost 20 people have been killed — assassinated, murdered — in the North. Again, in the last number of hours a man going about his work, a worker doing his business either because he was working or because he was of a particular religion, has been blown to pieces. We need to address this matter, not just as a sterile debate but in an attempt to see how this House could contribute to the process of peace. I put it to the Leader that it is an urgent matter and is something we should address quickly.
I would also put it to you, a Chathaoirligh, that we had a fairly detailed debate on the Maastricht proposals, but that was a debate that took place almost too late to have any serious imput to the Government position. I now suggest that the import of the decisions taken at Maastricht are worthy of consideration and that we need to open the discussion on it. That discussion should begin in this House. Therefore, we should ask the Minister for Foreign Affairs — it is a new Minister now — for a return visit to go through in detail and respond on the implications of the amendments to the Treaty of Rome which we accepted and agreed at Maastricht. That is critical.
The final issue I want to raise is something, the Leader himself referred to during the course of his response last week, namely, the decisions, the proposals or the agreements — whichever is the appropriate word — on changes to the procedures of the House. I hesitate to use the word "reform" of the Seanad because it implies something like the debate we had. We need to begin at the beginning and we should now look to implementing — at a slow rate if necessary, but certainly at some rate — the valid proposals that were put to us during the course of the debate on reform of the House.
I support the call for time to be made available for a debate on the various Greencore reports. I am making this call so that we can debate the discrepancies in these reports and, in particular, so that we can consider the implications of these reports for the food industry and the ways in which the damage this kind of report can do to the food industry can be limited. In addition, may I also ask whether at some stage it might be possible to have a debate on communications in Ireland and in particular a debate on the manner in which Telecom Éireann deal with their customers who run into difficulties in relation to their capacity to pay their bills?
I join with you and others in extending bienvenu en Irlande a nos amis francais
I join with others in asking that we debate the matter of Greencore and in particular the report of the High Court inspectors and indeed the other reports? As you are aware, we gave Greencore very serious consideration when we debated the Bill in this House and I think it is now appropriate that we should return to the matter in the light of all the things which have been said in recent days.
My other request to the Leader is: when does he intend to take Item No. 8, the one which refers to the Industrial Policy Review Group, the so-called Culliton report? We have asked for a debate on this on several occasions in the past few weeks and perhaps the Leader would indicate when it is intended to take it?
I would like to ask the Leader of the House if he could facilitate an early debate on the Culliton report and encompassing in that the whole question of unemployment. I would like the Leader, pending that debate, to convey my concern to the new Minister for Labour about the suggestion to set up agencies abroad to take young people to the Continent of Europe. I am concerned that through that scheme we might be exporting the very people with the potential to create jobs here and I ask the Leader of the House to say to the Minister that he should be cautions about this. We should have a debate on unemployment in the Seanad and the Dáil and this should deal with the jobs forum before a decision is taken that could drain the country of the young people who could create jobs for us in the future.
May I ask the Leader of the House if he could ensure that the State Guarantees Act, 1954 (Amendment of Schedule) Order, 1992, which is being debated in the other Houses, could be brought to this House as a matter of urgency next week? As the House is probably aware, there is a major £20 million port development being held up for a location in Waterford. The need for the passing of this measure is extremely urgent indeed and I ask the Leader to ensure that this Bill is brought to the House as a matter of urgency next week.
I also join with my colleagues in welcoming our French colleagues here this afternoon.
On the Order of Business on Wednesday, 26 February, I referred to newspaper reports that the chairman of the Irish Wheelchair Association could not gain access to Kildare House for a meeting of the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Commercial State-Sponsored Bodies. It has since emerged that the chairman was given facilities to enter the House via the elevator in the underground car park in that building. The chairman has since written to the committee apologising for his remarks in that regard and I am delighted to set the record straight in Seanad Éireann today.
I request the Leader of the House to agree with the proposal of Senator Doyle, and hopefully with the approval of Senator Brendan Ryan and Senator Norris, that this motion will not be taken until such time as we have available the findings of the Supreme Court. I hope the Independent Senators will agree with that. I think it would lend itself to a better debate.
There was also a request for a debate on the Greencore matter. I would suggest that as it is likely that there will be court proceedings no such debate would take place until the court proceedings. At the moment all that is involved are allegations. When we are taking the debate I would suggest to the Leader of the House that we might give some time also to deal with the amount of money being sought by the investigators and the time they took to complete the investigation.
Today is Ash Wednesday and, in response to the call from Trócaire for an increased percentage of our GNP to be given towards alleviation of poverty in Third World countries, I ask the Leader to convey to the Government our wish that a higher percentage of our GNP be given for that purpose as we are the lowest donor among the OECD countries in this connection.
You very kindly ruled, Sir, that the motion in my name and that of Senator Norris is in order. May I ask you to confirm that you have also concluded the amendment is in order? I cannot make head or tail of the amendment. It seems to me the House is perfectly free not to discuss our motion if it wishes, instead of putting down a meaningless amendment to say we should not have a discussion about what we are going to discuss for three hours. That is my answer to Senator Hanafin. If the House does not want to discuss our motion it is perfectly entitled to decide not to. I have no intention of withdrawing the motion. What I believe now, I believed ten years ago. The Supreme Court will not deal with the substantial issue but with the specific issue.
I would like, as I have often done, to remind the House yet again that we need to talk about what we are doing to the unemployed — not what we are going to do for them if we change all the things we are going to change but what happens to them every day, including the now daft provision that if you live in the wrong part of the country and you are too well qualified, you are disqualified from social welfare. By this process we will end up with larger urban ghettoes than we have already. We need a specific and detailed debate on the way the social welfare systems treats 250,000 people. It deserves our consideration. I repeat that is not the same as a debate on industrial policy, job creation or anything else.
I would like to join with other speakers in asking the Leader of the House to agree to an early debate on the problems in the North of Ireland. In so doing I ask the House to compliment the Church leaders on the initiative taken by them. I only can see good coming from the subject being discussed in this House. If we have a forum and we do not use it, then we leave a vacuum for people who believe they have the support to continue the struggle by murder and other foul deeds. I totally agree with other speakers and ask the Leader of the House to arrange as soon as possible a debate in which all the Members of the House will have an opportunity to condemn the men of violence who have given this island a bad name by continuing a campaign which is not acceptable to the large majority of the people on the island.
I wish to compliment the new Minister for Foreign Affairs on his announcment that he was agreeable to the setting up of a joint committee on foreign affairs. It is one that many Members have advocated over the past couple of years and I look forward to a strong delegation from the House taking part in it. I would like to express the hope that the Leader of the House will provide an early opportunity for a discussion on the Culliton report.
Mr. Farrell
I would like to support Senator McGowan in calling for a debate on the North. I would also like to pay a tribute to the clergymen in the North who through their spiritual direction and pastoral care are talking to the paramilitaries and the subversives. I advocated that some time ago in the Seanad but I was frowned on by some people. I said that until somebody speaks to subversives and gets them to see sense, we will never have peace. These clergymen deserve all our praise.
In relation to the Merchant Shipping Bill, I think I heard the Leader of the House say that all Stages will be taken today. I hope there will not be a guillotine imposed on that legislation. It has been already indicated that taking all Stages on one day is a very unsatisfactory way of doing business. I would like some clarification on that.
In relation to the Independents' motion, I agree with your decision in relation to the sub judice rule. The Supreme Court has already ruled on he matter and all we are waiting for are the arguments. The question is whether we want to go ahead with a debate at this time or wait for those arguments. That is for the movers of the motion to decide. If they wish to wait, there is no problem about debating this issue as far as I can understand.
I would like to refer the Leader to Motion No. 46, which I raised over the last number of weeks, in relation to a pardon for Nicky Kelly. I am still waiting for a reply. I specifically asked the Leader to approach the Minister for Justice. More than four months ago the previous Minister for Justice asked the Attorney General to make a recommendation on whether a pardon should be granted to Nicky Kelly. In view of the remarks made by the Taoiseach and by the junior Minister in the Department of Justice last week and over the weekend, I feel it would be appropriate since this matter was raised in this forum — indeed it was in this forum that the Minister for Justice indicated that he would be approaching the Attorney General — that the Minister for Justice would state where he stands on the issue. I would be delighted if the Leader of the House could now make a statement on the matter.
Finally, in relation to unemployment and job creation and Item No. 8 on the Order Paper dealing with the Culliton report, it is high time we had a debate on these issues. We saw in the opinion poll yesterday that 100 per cent of supporters of virtually every party in the country regard unemployment as the priority issue.
Speech, Senator. A question to the Leader, please.
In view of that opinion poll in view of the statement made by the Minister for Labour in the context of setting up FÁS centres abroad and since our young people are no longer emigrating voluntarily, can we have a full discussion on some of the issues that have been raised? For the last six months at least we have been asking for a major discussion of his tissue. So far the Leader of the House has indicated that he is in favour of such a discussion but we have not got any firm dates yet.
In view of the breakdown of the talks on the reform of the Common Agricultural Policy in Brussels yesterday may I ask the Leader of the House if an opportunity will be given to this House to debate the Common Agricultural Policy reform because of the serious national consequences if agreement is not reached on these reforms? I say this because of statements being made by some of the farming organisations. I am not so sure that the representation of the family farmer, particularly in the west of Ireland, is coming through at this stage. I believe that this House can play a part explaining the opportunities and disadvantages of the reform. Therefore, such a debate here would be very opportune, seeing that eight nations are prepared to take on board at least the reform programme if not the details of it, but I am a bit taken aback that our farming organisations seem to be going in on the coat tails of the British and the Dutch in this matter. I believe that a debate here on the reform of the Common Agricultural Policy would be very productive.
I would like to join with my colleagues who welcomed the French delegation here today, and whether they are gone or not it does not stop me welcoming them. I was in their National Assembly on a number of occasions. When they get to Galway they will be following in the footsteps of the famous General de Gaulle who paid a much publicised visit there. As we are talking about people coming here from abroad, may I also extend a welcome to Fr. Donal Doyle, who is here with a large contingent of university students from Sophia University in Tokyo? Groups of these students have come here to Ireland for a number of years and I have pleasure in formally welcoming them to the Seanad.
In relation to motion before the House on Article 43.3.3º I feel very strongly, given the volatility of this issue, that it would be much better if this debate took place when the Supreme Court judgment is available. We cannot argue that the Supreme Court judgment is irrelevant to this issue. That is an absurd statement. It is most relevant, and obviously the debate would be much more informed. Consequently, I think we should build up consensus here of agreeing to this debate when at least seven days have passed after that Supreme Court judgment is available so that Members could give adequate weight to this important document.
I support Senator Doyle in seeking a debate on the Greencore issue. I ask the Leader of the House to give serious consideration to this and — the reverse of the situation in this case — I would welcome an immediate debate. I do not think we need to look to whether the courts decide to look into this matter, because if the courts decide to look into it the issue will be ruled as sub judice and we may be waiting some months before a debate can take place. I think we should have that debate soon.
Finally, I would like to point out the Leader of the House that in recent months meetings have taken place throughout the west of Ireland, arranged by bishops in the west, who are extremely concerned about the appalling problems that exist west of the Shannon. These meetings have been attended by large numbers of people who are very concerned about policies or lack of policies for that region. I asked the Leader of the House previously if he would arrange a debate in this House on this question of regional development in the west of Ireland and I would press him in the interest of that part of our country to so arrange that debate.
Ba mhaith liom ar dtús aontú leis an Seanadóir agus fáilte faoi leith a chur roimh na cuairteoirí ó Ollscoil Tokyo agus a rá go bhfuilimid an-sásta go bhfuil siad in ár measc.
I also join with the other speakers in calling at this time for a debate on Northern Ireland. It is extremely important that that debate should take place at this time particularly in view of the stated decision of the IRA to increase the bombing campaign in England in the run-up to the general election there. I think any right-minded Irish person——
You are making a speech, Senator.
I also reiterate the call of my colleague, Senator Finneron, last week in asking the Leader of the House to convey to the Minister for Energy the concern of this House and ask for a debate in relation to our energy policy? It appears to be the policy now that Bord na Móna are leaving unprocessed large tracts of land. In that connection also, I wish to express the concern felt by many people in relation to what would appear to be a very definite decision by the British Nuclear Energy Board——
You are making many speeches, Senator. I must call you to Order.
I just want to convey the concern of many people at a decision by the British Nuclear Energy Board to start experimenting with that atmosphere and the air in Sellafield and to pollute the air in that area. It is extremely important.
I seem to recall, Senator Norris, that you were the first to offer on the Order of Business. You have already spoken, but I am giving you the benefit of the doubt, reluctantly.
I am glad you recognised an interjection from me. Je suis triste que nos amis francais sont partis maintenant parce que je voudrais dire, comme mon collegue, Senator John Dardis——
Has the Senator some point to raise on the Order of Business? If not, I ask him to resume his seat.
I will decline the Chair's invitation because I have three matters I wish to raise.
With regard to a group of houses across the road in Merrion Street, would the Leader of the House express concern to the Government about the fate of these very important listed buildings, particularly their interiors, which houses for many years were in possession of the Government?
I also ask him to convey to the Minister for Foreign Affairs the concern of the House at his visit to Iran. I do this quite in line with the Order of Business because I have an item on the Supplementary Order Paper dealing specifically with information that has been disclosed to me by Amnesty International who are concerned at continuing human rights abuses in that country. I would like the Leader of the House to convey that matter to the Minister for Foreign Affairs.
On a parallel note, will the Leader confirm there will be no official representation from this House at the St. Patrick's Day parade in New York because the then Cathaoirleach attended the St. Patrick's Day parade there last year where there was a notorious example of discrimination and bigotry. I hope this appalling insult to human rights will not be repeated by any Member of this House in future——
That has nothing to do with the Order of Business.
It is quite disgraceful.
I wish to put on record my disappointment that Senators Ryan and Norris would not be led by the wisdom of the majority of the House in postponing the discussion today on Article 40.3.3º. By not doing so, they leave themselves open to the charge of trying to garner cheap publicity on a most sensitive issue——
That is an outrageous allegation.
Rubbish.
——particularly in view of the fact that they would be afforded the opportunity of having a full discussion on this matter when the Supreme Court decision has been handed down.
I ask the Leader of the House, in view of the report that is now available on insurance costs, if he would see his way to allowing a debate to take place in the House on an issue that particularly affects younger drivers. I would be a very valuable debate and one I urge him to arrange.
Will the Leader convey my concern and the concern of many other people to the granting of a licence to Bridgefarm Company Limited to sell the final part of the Coolattin estate? Tomnafinogue Wood is the last remaining part of these oak woods. It is a spectacular part of the country. It is a great shame, if we are serious about out environment, that these woods will be totally felled. Replanting of the woods that were cut has not worked very well. The laurel is completely covering——
The Senator is making a speech.
I we are serious about our environment they should not be granted a licence to cut down the woods as they have done in other parts because it is a most important environmental issue. These trees have taken hundreds of years to grow and they should not be felled in the way the other woods were felled.
Well said.
I express my support for the calls across the House for a debate on Northern Ireland. Apart from the obvious reasons, I suggest to the Leader that this is a very appropriate time in view of welcome signs of progress on many fronts and in view of what seems to be a new emphasis in Government policy on Northern Ireland which the House would like to explore.
I wish to raise a totally different matter which has shocked and appalled me, and I am sure many Members of the House. I hope the Leader will convey to the Minister for Foreign Affairs the condemnation of this House at the atrocities carried out by the Armenians against the innocent people of the Nagorno-Karabakh region. We are a member of the United Nations. Armenia has only in the past few days been admitted as an emerging nation to the United Nations and for many decades——
The Senator has gone too far.
I accept that but this forum must express its outrage at matters of this nature at an early stage. We have a role and a responsibility. I was appalled at a country that has for generations been touting for sympathy for its own cause as a result of the Turkish massacres——
That is a speech. It is not relevant to the Order of Business.
I accept that but within days of joining the United Nations they murdered innocent women and children. I hope the Minister for Foreign Affairs will convey to our Permanent Representative at the United Nations the message that this country is not going to support that type of outrage.
I wish to put on record that the Government side of the House will support the Fine Gael amendment to the motion tonight.
Surprise, surprise.
As soon as the Supreme Court judges make their judgment known, we will have a full debate in this House. We are well aware that it is one of the few issues in politics on which there has been a very real consensus. We would like to see that continue.
I would have to take advice on the Greencore issue. I understand that a statement may be made in the Dáil this evening that would be relevant to the comments made here today. Northern Ireland was mentioned by many Senators. The Minister for Foreign Affairs in his comments last week on the setting up of a committee on foreign affairs has shown he may take a different position on debates in the Houses. We will continue our efforts to have such a debate with the Minister.
The Maastricht issue was mentioned by Senator O'Toole. My understanding is that in the coming week a White Paper will be published and, subject to the Whips agreement, I hope we will be able to have a debate on that very important issue. From listening to the Order of Business today, it is important that some of the Standing Order changes that have been accepted by the Committee on Procedure and Privileges should be adopted in this House immediately. It is very difficult for all concerned for the Order of Business to go on the way it is at the moment. There is a genuine need for change. I hope that, with all-party agreement, by the end of this month we will have brought in some changes that will be in the interests of the House.
With regard to employment and industrial policy, I hope that in two weeks time we will be in a position to have a debate on that issue and that the wisdom of this House will be brought to bear on that matter in a positive fashion.
The Social Welfare Bill will be published in the next week or two and that will afford a chance to this House to discuss some of the issues mentioned. Senator Costello mentioned the Nicky Kelly case. I assure him I made contact with the Minister in question. Senator Finneran mentioned the Common Agricultural Policy reforms. In the next week, subject to the Whips, I hope we will get a chance to discuss that matter. Insurance costs will be debated. We will deal with as many Stages of the Merchant Shipping Bill as time permits.
What about Greencore?
I have addressed that matter.
Order of Business agreed to.