Seanad Éireann debate -
Friday, 6 Mar 1992

Vol. 131 No. 14

Appropriation Act, 1991: Motion (Resumed).

Debate resumed on the following motion:

That Seanad Éireann notes the supply services and purposes to which sums have been appropriated in the Appropriation Act, 1991.

—(Senator Hussey.)

Mr. McMahon

I congratulate the Minister on the seat he now occupies and wish him well in his new position. When we were winding up this debate last I said I wanted to say a few words about the health services. Much has already been said regarding lack of health services in Ireland over the last few months and during this debate, but it would be remiss of me not to comment as I represent the area most disadvantaged for health services.

Many patients are now being treated in hospital on a day visit basis where a bed would have been provided for them five or ten years ago. Patients visit hospitals now to see a specialist or to have a problem investigated and when they have to undergo slight operations they are not provided with a bed as they would have been a few years ago. A few such cases have come to my notice recently and I do not think there is any need to mention the hospital's name as I am sure this is happening in most Dublin hospitals.

Two patients I know of had a gastroscopy without anaesthetic because a bed could not be provided for them. I have had this operation myself on two occasions, but with an anaesthetic. It was unheard of before now in medical circles to carry out this operation without an anaesthetic. Patients after this operation now remain in the hospital waiting room for a few hours and are then collected by relatives or friends. One person had to get a taxi home to Tallaght. This state of affairs is despicable. One of these patients told me she would never return to a hospital or a specialist again but would have the local medical doctor treat her rather than go through another ordeal in a Dublin hospital.

Word of this situation is spreading. Doctors are now reluctant to send patients for this gastric examination because of what they must go through in hospital. Heretofore it was not necessary to stay overnight but to have a bed for the day which is not available now in Dublin hospitals. Consequently unnecessary suffering is caused to people who are already suffering from a physical illness. The two patients I referred to were being investigated for a hiatus hernia but this minor operation is carried out for other complaints too. This is a relatively minor operation but it is a major ordeal for an old person to undergo this examination for between three and six hours without bed accommodation; a day bed was always provided for this examination in the past.

Health is a major issue in my constituency; the greatest disappointment is the delay and what many would now say is scrapping plans to build a Tallaght hospital. Many people who have settled in the area over the last few years believed a hospital would be built; Tallaght has been planned and built only since I became a public representative. In the late sixties Tallaght was a village of 3,500 people, including the surrounding areas. It is now an area of 80,000 people — I am referring now to areas where there are hospitals — an area equivalent in size from Crumlin to Naas or from Blanchardstown to Rathgar or Stillorgan, which does not have one hospital bed. Is there any other area in Europe of similar population where one could say that? There is not one hospital bed for a catchment area of 350,000 people, 80,000 of whom live in the immediate area of Tallaght.

Local GPs now hesitate to send their patients for investigations to specialists in the city. There is not even a specialist service in the Tallaght area I am referring to, which probably has the highest unemployment rate in the country. Two local authorities competed with each other to build the maximum number of houses there 15 and 20 years ago without providing the necessary infrastructure. In one housing estate 70 per cent of the heads of households are unemployed. That area needs medical facilities more than areas where almost every family has a car. In housing estates in my area less than 50 per cent of householders would be car owners and may have to travel from eight to 12 miles for specialist services, having to get two and sometimes three buses and bringing with them two or three children.

The Government cannot stand by and watch this situation continue for much longer. The people of the Tallaght area have been very patient and have organised themselves in many ways to compensate for lack of facilities and to demand better services. We have an excellent Tallaght hospital committee supported by the local population. Nobody is opposed to the hospital; everybody wants to see it built. I am sure my views are shared by my colleagues on the opposite benches; Senator Conroy is familiar with the situation. The Tallaght hospital planning board was set up in 1980, 12 years ago. The planning brief was completed in 1984. The board are hard working and determined to ensure they could not be held responsible for holding up the building of that hospital. Their chairman in the beginning was a local person, Mr. Molloy, who was very interested in the building of the new town, and worked with all speed on that committee. I served on it for a short while as did Senator Conroy and he will know that the board made every effort and representation possible and worked long hours. The board and the people of Tallaght now feel frustrated.

I am no longer a member of the board but many have come through that board; it would not be advisable to have the same board for 12 years, I did my stint for three or four years as did others, including public representatives.

Successive Governments are under suspicion for the way they treated this project. In the early stages it was envisaged, indeed the board were given a brief to provide a hospital of 450 beds with second phase developments of 50 and 150 beds with the usual facilities. At a later stage they were given a brief to provide for a hospital of 600 beds. Naturally this upset the plans that were going ahead for the 450 bed hospital. Now I hear a further brief has been given to the board to reduce the hospital to 350 or 300 beds, all to be built in one phase, in other words, reducing the hospital size from what was envisaged originally.

Apart from the local authority development in the area, many people have invested their life savings buying houses in Tallaght, some of them through my persuasion because I believed the town would develop and that the teething problems of the early stages could be eliminated and we would achieve proper organised development. The town centre, the third level college and the hospital were the three items I pointed out to people in the past when they were either deciding to move in to the area or to remain there. I persuaded quite a number of people to buy houses in Tallaght, which was the town I grew up in and the town that grew up with me.

I and many other people are now suspicious as to whether the Government are serious about going ahead with the hospital. Everything is ready. The site has been provided by the local authority, from the £3 million provided by the former Taoiseach, when he was Minister for Finance in 1969. The site was procured in the early seventies. Everything, locally, has gone according to plan. We were told by successive Governments that the hospital would be provided in 1992, this year. It was then put back to 1993, and the timescale we are now being given is 1998.

Are the Government serious about building the Tallaght hospital? I would like the new Minister to give a straightforward answer. Since he was appointed he has got more radio and television time than any other member of the Cabinet. I do not mind any Minister doing that, if he has time for it. The Minister could do more in his Department than going on radio and doing a PR job, talking about the doctor-patient relationship — something that is quite adequate already. There are far more serious jobs to be done in the Department of Health than going on radio and television. I will give the Minister another few months to see what kind of results he comes up with.

This question of the hospital is a major problem for the people of Tallaght. I am sure there are several people, particularly women, seeing their GP today who are now being referred to a specialist in one area or other. The GPs in the area are reluctant to refer them because they know those people will have to bring members of their family with them, perhaps even having to take two buses to get to see the specialist.

In the absence of building the hospital, I appeal to the Government to provide specialist services. This was investigated when I was a member of the board ten years ago. We even went out and visited sites where these specialist services could be provided. All we need are two or three rooms for two or three days a week. It would mean more to the people of Jobstown, Killinarden, Fettercairn and all these vast local authority housing areas than many things that have been talked about.

Last year, when the sale of Irish Life was proposed I asked that the money got from the sale be used to finance the building of the hospital. I do not know what that money was spent on; does any Senator know how that money was used? One does not have to provide all the funds for the hospital in the one year, they can be provided in successive years but wherever the funds come from I would like the Minister to make an announcement that instead of 1998 the date is being brought back — and let us be realistic — to 1995-96. That would give some hope and ease the terrible problem that exists in that area.

There is another matter which affects the same town in the same way. Many of the services the Government should be providing are actually being provided by voluntary and charitable organisations. They are now being affected by the massive drain of cash to the national lottery. I did not vote for the national lottery when the legislation was going through this House. I foresaw the consequences it would have in the areas I am talking about.

It is not easy to get information from the National Lottery Board. I have failed to get them to say where the cash comes from, but I am sure they have the figures. I say to them, and I challenge contradiction, that the greatest amount of money going into the national lottery comes from the areas I am talking about — the local authority areas of west Tallaght, Blanchardstown, Swords and the new developments in County Dublin. It is not that people can afford it. They are grasping at the hope of improving their lot and that is why they spend so much money chasing the big prizes we see on television and hear on radio. The net result is that the money local charities depend on is being drained into the national lottery. I mentioned this here about two years ago. I ask that we look at the national lottery and find some way of controlling it. Some of the moneys these charities are losing should be channelled back to them to assist them in the excellent work they are doing in these areas.

We had a debate on tourism recently and some excellent suggestions were made. What surprised me most was that many Senators seemed to be happy with the way tourism was being handled by the Government. I am far from happy. While Bord Fáilte do a good job in attracting tourists here, there is insufficient back-up. Let us take the matter of roads. I know we see some great roads such as the Athlone and other by-passes. These are excellent roads for taking you quickly from one point to another, but scant attention is being given to the towns and villages these roads by-pass. There should be some way of attracting tourists into the towns which they are missing. Many people come from Europe to make their way along our narrow roads. They are not looking for massive highways. Certain tourists want major highways to get from one side of the country to the other, but the greatest attractions we have are our people, our heritage, our small villages and our narrow roads. While we are building these by-passes we should also be making an effort to attract the tourists into the towns and villages of Ireland.

Many parts of Europe no longer have the narrow country roads we have, but what did the Government do last year? They cut the allocation for the upkeep of these roads by £6 million. That is what I mean when I say there is no back-up to Bord Fáilte. All their massive advertising abroad brings the tourists here to see what — deteriorating roads? There was a cut of £6 million in funding for roads in a year when we made history by electing at least four "pot-hole" councillors in one county. This is a very serious problem. It would not surprise me if magazines promoting tourism in other countries were to write about our pot-holes. The Minister has to pass hundreds of pot-holes on his way home. It is extraordinary that certain counties——

Mr. McGowan

We will invite the Senator to come up for the weekend.

Mr. McMahon

I am not talking specifically about Donegal. I enjoy my trips to Donegal very much and, indeed, there are some very fine roads there.

Mr. McGowan

We have dual carriageways.

Mr. McMahon

I am talking about the narrow roads in all parts of the country; we do not have to travel as far as Donegal or Cavan to find them. Just outside the Dublin city boundary there is a road I used to travel regularly. I now avoid it because of the pot-holes, although that detour adds an extra mile-and-a-half to my journey. That is disgraceful. I will not name the road but if I represented that part of the county I probably would. I do not want to mention one against another. Our county roads are deteriorating but what do the Government do? They cut the grant for county roads by £6 million.

I first became a public representative in 1965 and I remember being interviewed three or four years later and being asked what was the greatest single problem I encountered as a public representative. I did not even have to think. It was the housing situation. About 60 per cent of the representations I received in my first 15 or 20 years as a public representative related to housing problems. I was frustrated that I was unable to assist these people; many of them had associated problems because they had been on the housing list for a long time. I had very few representations about housing for a couple of years in the eighties because housing conditions improved. The situation is now even worse than it was in the sixties and early seventies. In September 1989 there were just under 20,000 people on the waiting list for local authority housing and the estimated figure now is over 22,000. In 1983, 6,190 local authority houses were built; in 1990 the number was 1,003. While we are reducing drastically the number of houses being built, the number of people on the housing list is increasing. We are going backwards.

In 1983, Dublin Corporation built 1,753 houses; in 1990, the total number of houses built by Dublin Corporation was 35. We now have a crisis, particularly in the Dublin area. In March 1991 the number of housing applicants on Dublin Corporation's list was 4,377. Of these 1,200 were single person households but the family households numbered 3,176. How can the Government see a situation like this develop? Not only are these people left to live in miserable conditions, without the basic right to a home, but many are driven on to the homeless list. The hostels in Dublin cannot accommodate all the people who want accommodation. The number of beds available in hostels is inadequate. The workers in these areas tell me that the worst thing they have to do is to stand at a door and tell someone there is no room for them, knowing that they have nowhere else to go, because the other hostels will not have room for them either. Accommodation for the less well off in Dublin, if not in the whole country, is in crisis.

In the past year we have seen more political activity in Government circles than in any year since I came into the Oireachtas. I am not opposed to inter-party Governments. I have supported them time and again, and we will have them for the foreseeable future, but I think it is about time this Government got their act together. A whole year has been wasted trying to fix things up within their parties rather than looking at the plight of the people.

There is a general air of depression in business circles. No matter where you go people will tell you that their turnover is down on last year and the year before. For them there is no light at the end of the tunnel. They seem to be hammered right, left and centre. I am reluctant to make this forecast, but I expect we will see more small businesses going under this year than in any other year. Many of them are on the brink of collapse and there is nothing to brighten their day. What is happening? We now have the Valuations Office combing the country apparently at the request of the local authorities, who are probably desperate for money, increasing the valuations of local businesses. I have some examples of this which may shock those who are not already acquainted with the problem.

I have been approached by a lady who runs a family hairdressing business with her daughter, employing four people. In 1991 her rates were £411; this year she is requested to pay £1,360. If her valuation had not been touched, her increase in rates would have been £15, a reasonable amount but this increase from £411 to £1,360 means she has to let one of her employees go.

Not too far from those premises, a fish and chip shop paid £1,200 rates last year; they now have been asked to pay £2,300, almost double last year's rates. I have many similar examples. A delicatessen whose rates were £2,500 has received a bill of £4,600 for this year. Another example is a family with a small business employing three people — occasionally part-time workers — in 1991 paid £375 rates; this year they are being asked for £1,218, almost four times last year's rate bill. Is this the way the local authorities are being funded? What is the reason for this? The area I am speaking about is adjacent to one where there is a special tax concession and the new Tallaght Town Centre. These people have to contend with the business being taken from them by the Tallaght Town Centre and now they have to pay these exorbitant rates. They may appeal their rates demands as I advised them but in some cases that will cost them £25 and at the end of the day, they cannot be sure their rates will not be increased further. One person, when he informed the inspector that he could not pay the rates and that he would have to appeal, was told the rates could be increased further. In my view, no member of the public should be threatened by a public servant as happened in this case. We have always been told that, on appeals, there was the possibility of an increase in the valuation, but with the wholesale increase of valuations some courtesy should be afforded to those affected. That is why I have forecast that we will see more closures of family businesses and small businesses this year than in any year since I became a public representative.

I know of three or four other cases where people are trying to sell their businesses. One person has closed up his business but could not sell it. It was a shop with a residence in a row of eight or ten, and it is now closed. That man is living over the premises. He wanted to sell and buy a house elsewhere but nobody was interested. I know of three butcher's premises in County Dublin for which the owners cannot get buyers. This is happening all around the country today.

We are at a crossroads. I do not know the answer to these problems, but it is certainly not by increasing the rates to such an extent that we put people out of business.

Most people would not have too much sympathy for publicans because it is perceived they can get back whatever extra levy is put on them, but I think they have reached the end of the road. In one public house in County Dublin last year they paid about £8,000 in rates, this year they have been asked to pay £18,000. This is unthinkable, even if they are doing good business. Some people feel it is not necessary to have a pub in an area; I do not feel that way. I think all business is necessary because all needs must be catered for. How would this business be affected under the budget?

The valuation would have increased to £500. Last year his licence cost £120, this year he will be required to pay £3,500 on top of his rates bill which have been increased from £8,000 to £18,000, and he will now also be asked to produce all his tax clearance certificates before he is given his licence. He has no objection to doing that. That is another problem hitting publicans but we will deal with that another day.

It gives me no pleasure to stand up here and talk like this. I would prefer to praise the Government; I have been known to praise governments which were not of my political persuasion. However, these are markers that no Government can ignore.

There have been some major meetings in the west of Ireland in recent months, as I am sure the Minister is aware. Some were organised by the bishops and some by concerned people like the chambers of commerce. They were astounded at the number of people who came to those meetings whose purpose was to draw attention to the depopulation of the west. I do not think these signs can be ignored. These meetings were very well attended. If the Government do not take notice of them, take positive action and give these people some hope, this dissatisfaction will spill over into the streets. Nobody wants to see that. Nobody likes street politics but sometimes they may be necessary. I ask the Minister to inform his colleagues of the problems he is hearing about in the Seanad and ensure that positive action is taken in regard to some of the matters I have raised. I am sorry it was not a more pleasant morning for the Minister. Again, I congratulate him on his appointment and wish him well. I sincerely hope he will take note of what has been said here and that our contributions will be seen as worthwhile.

Mr. Lanigan

The debate on the Appropriations Act gives an opportunity to Members to ramble through what has happened over the past year and to reflect on what is likely to happen in the current year. It is an ideal opportunity for people to reflect on the state of the country and our finances, where we are going in terms of democracy and what is happening in Ireland vis-a-vis the rest of the world.

Despite what Senator McMahon said, we are living in a cosseted society. We have seen the breakdown of society in eastern Europe to an extent that could not have been envisaged two or three years ago. We have seen the thin veneer of democracy break in Yugoslavia. We have seen the opportunism of certain nationalist groups in eastern Europe attempt to change their own borders. I am not too sure if the break-up of the Soviet Union was the great boon it was portrayed as being, particularly in the west and the USA. The break-up of the Soviet Union will pose major problems which will be much more relevant to us than the problems that are associated with the emerging Third World.

When I say we are cosseted, I mean we live in a stable democracy with stable Government. We have an open economy which is subject to the vagaries of world commerce. He must sell our goods abroad to live and unfortunately because we are an island our people must go abroad to work also. We have been protected from the extreme poverty of the Third World and the poverty which is now a feature in eastern Europe but that does not say we do not have problems even though they are minuscule when compared to problems in other areas of the world. The poverty of people in the USA is much greater than the poverty of people in the Third World because their expectations have always been high. When one's expectations are high, their non-fulfilment makes for a society which can deteriorate extremely fast.

People who are unemployed in Ireland are very badly off in relative terms. I saw television programmes on unemployment in the USA. Senator McMahon might complain about the problems associated with the Tallaght Hospital and the extension of hospital services. In Ireland at least people receive medical services under our social welfare system; in the United States if one is sick and has money one will get treatment but if a person has no money he or she will be left to die. It is as simple as that in the United States and in other countries. That does not mean we must not try to improve the services in this country. We must maintain and improve them where it is possible to do so.

I would like to focus on a few points in relation to last year's annual report of the Comptroller and Auditor General. In relation to the item, expenses for the Revenue Commissioners including other services administered by that office, every day we see in the newspapers and in the schedule of debtors, the huge amounts of money owed to the Revenue Commissioneers by defaulters. Many of these defaulters are non-nationals who cannot be traced. How that can happen puzzles me. These people should have been traced while they were in the country. In 1990, the distributions on grounds of write-off was: on compassionate grounds, the number of items was 120 items or £1.354 million; ceased trading with no assets, 769 items, £16,886,000; liquidation, receivership and bankruptcy, 476 items, £13,220,000; cannot be traced outside the jurisdiction, 1,583 cases or £18,672,000.

If there was ever a case to be made for sacking the Revenue Commissioners or their servants that is one. Where is the logic in that, or who is dealing with these cases?

Mr. McMahon

One cannot get blood out of a stone.

Mr. Lanigan

They can get blood out of a small businessman in Kilkenny or Donegal. Why were those people not caught when they were in the jurisdiction? There is no small trader at present who is not hounded each month for his PAYE and VAT returns. I am in business and I received a sheriff's letter for VAT which was due for December, 1991. The amount had been paid but that was irrelevant. At least the sheriff had realised payment had been made, but where are these 1,583 people who have disappeared out of the jurisdiction and left £18,672,000 in arrears? Out of £50 million which was written off last year, £18,672,000 was owed by people who cannot be traced. It is a disgrace. I do not know what the situation will be in 1992. In 1989, there were 704 of these cases and £12,883,000 were written off; between the two years £40 million were written off for people who left the jurisdiction and cannot be traced.

I have no problem with revenue collection. Each year the Government set the PAYE, PRSI and tax rates, and it is up to them to collect that money in the most efficient way. A tax amnesty was introduced a few years ago and the Revenue coffers did exceptionally well. What happened was that decent people who, through no fault of their own, had run into tax arrears, decided to pay off that tax. They did not get a tax amnesty as many people think but an interest amnesty. They went to the banks and other lending institutions and borrowed to the hilt to pay the taxman.

The problems associated with businesses which Senator McMahon spoke about are not generally associated with the lack of trading profits; they are associated with the repayment of loans taken out to pay the taxman. It could be said that these people should have been out of business years ago because they were not viable in the first place. That argument can be sustained from an economic and tax point of view, but there is no justification for it in terms of the employment these firms have created. In general, these firms have not received IDA grants, they are in the service sector and are the best employers in the country. They never cost the State a pound to create a job so what if they get into a little bit of trouble? However, those people who got IDA grant, IDA built factories, etc. cannot be traced because they are now outside this jurisdiction.

The one way to collect money, and the Revenue Commissioners should be as aware of this as anybody else, is to ask for it. What has happened since the interest amnesty is that millionaires have been set up in the country — a small group of multi-millionaires in certain areas — who are called sheriffs. They are a small group of solicitors who deal with tax matters for the Revenue Commissiones and who have a group of ex-gardaí working for them. Not one single sheriff in the country employs anybody but an exgarda to collect the money by intimidation or threat.

In one case in Kilkenny £23 was due to the sheriff, not for tax but for fees. At lunchtime, when there was 120 people in a restaurant, five people came in demanding £23. The proprietor was busy at the time and he threw a stool at them, and told them to take it with them. In a supermarket in Kilkenny there were two girls at the checkouts and five of these intimidators came in and threatened to close down the place unless they got £66 in sheriff's fees. The girls thought the place was going to be closed down. There was a truck outside the premises and there was a threat that goods would be seized. As I said, these intimidating tactics were adopted not to collect taxes but to collect fees.

I have no problem with Revenue or anybody else using whatever means possible to collect what is due to them but a much more efficient method would be to employ people in the local tax offices to collect the tax. There is no point telephoning somebody and saying: "send me a cheque". Anybody who looks for payment by telephoning is whistling in the wind. If you do not call, no one will give the money. Instead of giving hundreds of thousands of pounds to a small group of solicitors we could create 300 or 500 productive jobs by having people call to businesses and collect cheques for PAYE and VAT. The collection of tax is an area which has not been addressed, despite what the Government suggest. Some sheriffs are efficient and humane but others are not.

I suggest that the tax inspectors or officials in the areas in which those who cannot be traced operated, should be asked why they did not assess the position. If I send out a salesman to an area and he sells something but does not collect the money, I immediately ask why he sold the product if he knew he could not collect the money due.

The question of tax liability is a major one. There are problems associated with the valuation of properties. It is very hard to justify some valuations that have taken place over the last couple of years. In certain cases, the increases were justified. The problem is not with the increase in the amount of rates paid but the differing valuations in each area. Leitrim is one of the poorest counties in Ireland but they have the highest rates because their rate base is exceptionally low. The valuation in Dublin is exceptionally low because there are a large number of industries and businesses. A lot of money is collected because there are a large number of people and businesses. Service charges are not collected in Dublin because they receive sufficient money in rates. The fact that Dublin does not have service charges creates antagonism in country areas. There should be service charges in Dublin and part of the rates collected should be distributed around the country to compensate for the advantages that a capital city has over sparsely populated areas and areas which are crying out for industry. Of course, industry will locate where services and communications tend to be best. This is why Dublin has a great advantage over the rest of the country. Therefore, Dublin should be in a position to subsidise the rest of the country.

Mention has been made of the lack of jobs and the problems associated with that. The more jobs we lose the higher will be our social welfare bill. There is a proliferation of State agencies trying to provide jobs. Recently I was looking through the annual reports of State agencies which are supposed to provide jobs and training, and I noted that the lack of professionalism at regional level is abysmal. I did not see one marketing or economics graduate nor did I see one former business person among those working for State agencies in the job creation area. How can we pretend that somebody who has been a civil servant all his life will produce jobs? There is no way this can be done. They do not have the expertise or the guts. They never had to do it and they never will. We need young people with the necessary skills to market this country and find products which will sell abroad. It is only young people with international expertise through training or experience who will be able to do this. We are setting up FÁS offices abroad to indicate where jobs might be available for our graduates. I sincerely hope that these people will have the expertise to sell what we have here as well as trying to create employment abroad.

For a number of years we talked about our well educated young people being our greatest asset. They are our greatest asset in one sense but, unfortunately, too many of them have to go abroad. They come out of college and get jobs here; sometimes their wages are abysmal by any standards. They get bored and frustrated and then they leave the job. Their expertise is lost and they go abroad where they build up major companies. The number of Irish graduates who are running companies abroad is enormous. They have never played their part in our efforts to create jobs.

There should be a gradual tax system for people starting work. In the Civil Service a young person starts at 20 years of age and, if he is able to do the job reasonably well, he gets an annual increase in salary. Why should a young lad or girl entering the workforce at present have to pay tax from the start? Why should there not be a graded level of taxation? Why not give them the chance to show their mettle? Give them a chance to put money in their pocket. If we do that, they will spend it here and the Government will get the money back in VAT anyway. Then, as they grow more affluent we could bring in a graded tax system.

Income tax is the greatest deterrent to work. If a person works and does not pay tax that is all right, they will spend their money at home and the Government will benefit from the VAT collected. Income tax is also a deterrent to industry. If a person decides to save, the Government will get tax back through DIRT. If people did not have to pay income tax they would have more to save and the Government would get it back in DIRT at 35 per cent; if they spend the money the Government would get it back in VAT at 16 per cent. Why not eliminate income tax for people starting work? It might seem a radical approach, but it is not because their money would still come into the Exchequer coffers and there would be an incentive to either save or spend. There is no incentive at present because if young people get a job they pay tax at the high rate; if their job is not great, they are on a lower rate of tax and they see that people who are not employed are nearly as well off as they are. The differential between the lower paid and the unemployed is too small. The Government are trying to do something about that through the family supplement scheme but a single person does not receive the family income supplement; he is just somebody on a low wage which is not comparable with what some people can get on social welfare. It is neither fair or equitable.

A sum of £170,000 has been provided for the Secret Service this year. That money could be better spent. Why we want a Secret Service is beyond me. If we rang MOSSAD they would tell us exactly what we want to know. I read The Secret Wars and anything we want to know about the secret service I am sure the Israelis would tell us because they know everything. If they do not know something they know where to get it. Why we need a secret service is beyond me. Maybe they are working in Northern Ireland. If they are, they are not doing a great job because they have not been able to stop anything happening. I do not know where they work. It involves a sum of only £170,000 but it could be put to better use.

Senator McMahon talked about what is not happening, but there are also many positive indicators. He referred, in particular, to County Dublin. For many years we have been advocating that some Government Department should be decentralised to Kilkenny and last weekend the Minister for State, Deputy Noel Treacy laid the foundation stone of our new decentralised offices. The first phase has started with the amalgamation of all the civil servants in Kilkenny in one building. The second phase will mean the decentralisation of the Patents Office and part of the Department of the Marine to Kilkenny. That is a very positive move for Kilkenny. We have already centralised our county council offices and the foundation stone for a new building was laid a fortnight ago. The Minister for Health, Deputy O'Connell will be in Kilkenny on Monday to start a new phase of development for St. Luke's hospital. Work on Kilkenny Theatre, for which we have been fighting for the past 25 years, will start in about a fortnight's time and we received a grant of over £450,000 from the Arts Council for that project. A magnificent athletics track and sport's grounds will be opened within the next fortnight with funding of over £300,000 from the national lottery. A Euro-route between Waterford and New Ross, which passes through Kilkenny is near completion. The developments as a whole, must be acknowledged.

Senator McMahon talked about the 2,000 potholes on the roads around Donegal. He must be ten years behind the times because even the potholes on the road into Kilcullen have been filled and they were supposed to be the worst in the country. One could go on about the deficiencies in Irish society but, in general, services have improved. That does not mean that some people are not impoverished or in need of services they feel they should have and cannot get.

I hold a clinic in Kilkenny which provides a social welfare service 99 per cent of the time. That clinic operates from Monday to Sunday each week. Recently, there has been much controversy about the ESB billing system following a suggestion that a dual billing system should be implemented. There were cries of anguish from people all over the country that this billing system would be unfair and would lead to job losses. Yesterday a person called to my office in despair because the ESB said they would cut off her electricity supply. This person's electricity bill was for £198. Included in the £198 was an amount of £68 in respect of the fifth of 14 instalments for a video and television. It also included a seventh of 14 repayments for a fridge and an eighth of 12 payments for a dryer. The total electricity component on that bill £42.7. If that is not an indication why there should be a dual billing system there never will be.

I queried with the ESB why they were able to give so much credit to somebody who obviously could not pay their ESB bill, never mind pay instalments for luxuries. They told me that if someone requests credit, they get it. If a person goes into any electrical shop and seeks credit they will be asked how they will repay it. I am not suggesting that people should not have access to long term credit at a low cost but this facility should only be given where the ESB bill can be covered irrespective of the hire purchase element. Over the years the ESB have done a magnificent job in giving cheap credit to people who would otherwise not have goods which we all like to have. The billing system as proposed is a good alternative to people paying much more to moneylenders who call each week and charge an APR of up to 100 per cent. The Minister has done a good job in that regard.

We should acknowledge the fact that in the tenure of the Minister for Social Welfare, Deputy Woods, there were major improvements in the way socially deprived people can get the funds to which they are entitled. The opening of regional offices has been a major success. It is 15 years since I advocated that computers should be installed in all regional offices of the Departments of Social Welfare and Labour and, thankfully, that has now happened. Access to files and data is faster and more efficient. There are a number of anomalies in the social welfare system that are beginning to ease out. There is a better communication system now. The efforts of the former Minister, Deputy Woods, in that area were of paramount importance. I am not running down his predecessors but he was to the forefront in this regard over the past number of years. We have a high unemployment rate. If we take the burden of tax from the younger people or allow them a tax-free break up to the age of 25 or for a specific period of years, that money will pour into the economy and the Department of Social Welfare will not have to pay as much in allowances for unemployment assistance or unemployment benefits.

With regard to unemployment assistance, the Minister for Finance, in conjunction with the Minister for Social Welfare, must look at the existing anomaly of somebody living alone or with parents as against somebody living in a flat. It is ludicrous that because somebody is living at home there is a cut in social welfare unemployment assistance. If they obtain their full entitlement their parents, if they are unemployed, will receive a reduced social welfare allowance. If a person is unemployed, they should get their full social welfare entitlement, irrespective of where they live.

I am pleased the Land Registry are to transfer to the semi-State sector. The Land Registry have been — I will not say incompetent — but they do not appear to have adequate staff to deal with the volume of work. It is difficult to get an answer to a query in the Land Registry and it is unbelievable that it should take over two years to get registration from the time a solicitor applies. The staff are very competent, the delay is probably not caused by the standard of their work but on the system under which they operate. In today's world transferring files from one Department to another, is not the way to do business.

There have been computers in this country for approximately 60 years. It should not take more than 12 months to put every file in the Land Registry on computer and operate on a county or regional basis, as the Department of Social Welfare have done. I would prefer if they operated on a county basis because, at present, inquiries to the Land Commission are dealt with by reference to the county. Therefore, small offices should be set up throughout the country to deal with local inquiries with a link to a central computer in Dublin. In this way problems associated with registration and transfer of land would be dealt with more efficiently.

The subject of housing has already been mentioned. We must analyse our housing needs because the social aspect of housing is changing. The traditional family unit no longer exists. In Kilkenny there are 449 people on the housing list. Of those 449, 69 per cent would not, in the past, have been considered as coming from a stable background: they include single mothers, separated parents and one parent families. Therefore, we must reflect on present housing needs. The need for a three bedroom family home is decreasing but the need for a two bedroom family home is increasing. Local authorities and the Government must consider the need to build structures which can be adapted to two, three or four bedroom houses.

We must also provide housing for single people and that can be done by building blocks of flats. The savings which would accrue from this would be enormous. At present, not many local authorities build blocks of flats. I do not mean we should build flats like those in Ballymun but eight unit blocks. There is a large market for the sale of private flats to elderly people and local authorities and the Department of the Environment should note this. There are elderly people living in big housing estates far from the basic services of shops, a church, a doctor, and an area where they can enjoy the pleasure of walking or sitting in a park.

Property which comes on the market is not being fully utilised. For instance, people buy their local authority houses and their children may be working in England or America. However, there may be a fight over who owns the house and the house is put on the market. At that stage the elderly person does not know where they stand. The quality of housing built by the Department of the Environment is excellent. We are world leaders in terms of house building and providing for the socially deprived who need State subvention for housing.

At present there is a hullabaloo because the Minister for Finance proposes to introduce a tax on third level education; and that is appropriate in certain circumstances. Some regional technical college courses are funded by the European Social Fund, and some people who can afford to subsidise third level education for their childeren do not have to. People on low incomes cannot afford to send their children to third level colleges. I would like to see a small amount of money taken from people who can afford to pay for third level education to assist those who cannot afford it. Tax revenue should not be thrown into one big pool; specific taxes should be used for specific puposes.

We have an excellent education system and have built a large number of new schools but we should try to amalgamate them. In my parish in Kilkenny there are five schools within 100 yards of each other but the pupils have limited access to extra curricular education, such as the theatre, assembly hall, games rooms and the gymnasium. In a parish with two schools there should be one theatre and one well equipped gymnasium, rather than two small units. Consideration should be given to the amalgamation of school facilities, especially if there are a number of schools in the same area

There is no doubt that more jobs could be created if the Government put extra money into the building of roads, communications services, etc. If we allocate extra money to public service areas to build up our infrastructure, we will reap the benefits in the future. At present money for this purpose comes from public funds and this creates its own problems. Nevertheless, if we are to progress we must build up our infrastructure.

We must also examine the consequences of giving a grant-in-aid, whether it is in respect of agriculture, business or social needs. A grant-in-aid should not be given as a subsidy in the short term to build up a person's income for a year or two. It should be given for the purpose of building something for the future and not as a stop-gap measure or as an income supplement. We have given too many of those grants in the past. I refer again to those people whose tax liabilities have been written off. In 1990, 1,583 people received a grant-in-aid and absconded without trace. Those people owe the country £18,672,000. This is not sustainable and the Revenue Commissioners have a great deal to answer for. Of the 2,948 people whose tax liabilities have been written off, 1,583 have left the country and cannot be traced. That should not be accepted and it must be highlighted. If those people are in Europe, and came here to obtain grants, surely they can be traced. This major scandal should be highlighted in the Appropriation report.

Mr. McDonald

I am glad to have the opportunity to contribute to this debate. The Appropriations Bill is usually introduced before the Christmas break and because this is the only opportunity Members of this House have to comment on the activities of Departments and the responsibilities of Government, it should not be missed.

Senator Lanigan dealt with a few interesting topics. In regard to his last point vis-a-vis the Revenue Commissioners, I wish to know if the law section of the Revenue Commissioners is adequately staffed? There has been an embargo on staff recruitment for a number of years. The Minister should consider the effects that embargo has had on areas of the Civil Service, such as the Revenue Commissioners. We should not be critical of public servants if they are not given the necessary resources by Government to deal effectively with anomalies or smart alecks, or however we describe people who set out to defraud the system.

For one reason or another people may fall on hard times and their business may decline. They are one category but the case of a person who is in debt to the Revenue for his lawful taxes and is basking in the sunshine in warmer climates is completely unacceptable. Everyone must contribute their fair share of taxes to permit the State to provide an excellent range of services. We are a well developed economy and a fairly wealthy country but the distribution of that wealth can create problems.

As parliamentarians we do not compare the services here with those in other countries. For example, in Northern Ireland, which is only a couple of hours drive from here, they operate a different system. I have a particular interest in the need for social housing and I chair a voluntary housing association, the Sue Ryder Foundation, which caters mainly in providing housing for disabled and elderly people. Recently I had an opportunity to visit some of the voluntary housing associations in Belfast and it was interesting to compare the facilities available there with those here.

Last year, if my calculations are correct, local authorities here provided less than 1,000 dwellings and the voluntary housing associations provided in excess of 500. There is a shift in the policy of the Department of the Environment to place the onus on the voluntary and charitable associations. In my experience I do not see anything particularly wrong with that especially for the categories of disabled people but it is too much to expect the voluntary associations to provide housing for the ordinary population. The public respond generously when it is a case of providing sheltered accommodation or social housing for the elderly, disabled or the handicapped. It is very difficult to do that for ordinary people although Father Harry Bohan from Clare has been pioneering this facility of providing private housing for the past 20 years or more. His efforts, especially in the west of Ireland, were quite successful and he blazed a trail without sufficient support along the way.

From a voluntary housing agency point of view, it is possible to avail of the Department of the Environment H.A.4 of 1985 facility to make up the difference in cost. The regulations say that the Department will provide 80 per cent of the cost by loan with a ceiling of £22,000. It is not possible to build a unit or a house for less than £35,000, or £40,000 which makes the effective percentage available in loan 54 per cent or 56 per cent. To make up the difference is a heavy strain on a voluntary organisation, irrespective of what part of the country we are talking about. The Minister should look at that scheme and either pay the 90 per cent grant in the case of housing for the homeless or through another Department — the Department of Social Welfare or the Department of Health and the health boards — provide a capitation system to assist voluntary organisations with these ongoing expenses. That should come as a statutory right and would constitute only a fraction of what the State pays through health boards for accommodation for people who, for one reason or another, are institutionalised too early. I would like the Government to take that urgent point on board.

Over the last number of years the success of the national lottery has dealt a severe blow to the amount of funds that voluntary organisations at parish, local or community level have been able to raise.

I would like a review of the Government's energy policy. This policy needs definition and restatement. I have a personal interest in the question of alternative energy, which has given me the opportunity of studying in great depth the way technology is developing and evolving. I would like to know the official line on alternative sources of energy, such as solar energy with solar heating panels. We must remember that since the first trials took place in this country some ten years ago, there have been tremendous technological improvements in the quality of products and in the technology now available.

I am told by leading manufacturers that strong sunlight is not required; newer more highly developed panels are able to extract heat from brightness or light as distinct from direct sunshine which was required heretofore.

I feel we are entering an energy conscious period but in Ireland we do not appear aware of that. President Bush just ten days ago announced that the abolition date for CFCs was to be brought forward to 1995. The European Community and the Commissioner responsible spoke of a similar policy for Europe on 27 February last.

The application of solar energy to non-food agriculture crops is another issue. I would like to ask if the Ministers for Energy, Agriculture and the Environment have had any discussions or any change of views on this topic.

The provision of energy as a non-food crop would have significant benefits for our agriculture industry, our environment and our finances if we consider the scope for import substitution and the cost of fossil fuels. Both the German and French Governments have announced a policy of low taxation or no taxation — other than VAT — on farm crops grown for energy. Last year I made a submission to Commissioner MacSharry asking him to consider allocating the set aside subsidies operated by the Commission of the European Communities for non-food crops produced for energy which would be a normal progression. I hope the Government here will take a stand on that since scientists now tell us the ozone layer is deteriorating faster than had previously been anticipated. We need to take active and practical steps to conserve the environment.

The more I pursue this activity the more I am led to believe that there is mere lip-service paid to problems, whether global or national, such as the environment. Five or six legislative measures such as the Water Pollution Act and the Air Pollution Act, were introduced during the last few years but many of these regulations, if they have been made, are not being implemented or enforced.

We are failing also to tackle the national problems of unemployment and emigration, although I agree that many excellent schemes are in force to address those problems. Job creation merits the attention and active consideration of every Member of the Oireachtas and of everyone in the country. We must make a concerted effort to provide opportunities to maintain our population in gainful employment. Incentives for industrialists are required. We must compete with every sector. There should be less tax on employment to make it easier for employers to take on more people; there should be built in incentives for this. Single persons at present without many tax claims must be discouraged when they work overtime to see such a high percentage of the extra money being taken in tax. I would like the Minister for Finance to look closely at this area and to place less tax on employment, with a compensatory increase perhaps in VAT. People should be encouraged to work. If VAT is at a higher rate at least they would have the option of spending their money instead of having it deducted at source as happens now.

The Culliton report which I hope we will have an opportunity to discuss here soon has underlined many of the problems associated with unemployment. It is a deep and detailed report and should be taken seriously.

If we are going to move into a positive job creating situation, instead of waiting for multinationals to come from the US, Japan or mainland Europe, there should be a greater percentage of risk capital provided, especially for small entrepreneurs and small family type start ups. Venture capital is available and special grants and fiscal reliefs are included in section 85 of the Finance Act, but it is not considered a viable option by the private sector or by the banks. Therefore, a private individual with an idea and high hopes cannot obtain finance and in the private sector people put in long hours in an effort to launch a venture.

Strong, well established companies, especially large supermarket chains, when they take supplies from a new small start-up industry will extract two or three months credit denying small industrialists the chance to achieve any kind of cash-flow. Lack of venture capital is one of the contributing factors to our annual importation of almost £40 million worth of vegetables that could be produced in any county here in any year. Even since An Bord Glas was set up, the figures have not improved; imports are still increasing.

It is appropriate to address a question to the Minister for Agriculture and Food to know why, despite the establishment of a new Department and a new board, the import trend has not changed. What is going wrong? Are Irish produced vegetables not being presented properly? Are they not being packaged properly or Are they inferior and, if so, in what way? Surely most Irish vegetables would be organically produced to a greater degree than those coming into Europe? We have a right to ask the Minister for Agriculture and Food what he is going to do about that. Why can we not redress that situation when huge amounts of vegetables could easily and profitably be produced this country?

On the subject of industrial development we should provide greater support for new industries and start-up industries. If a multinational comes in, they have all the in-house facilities available to them, they know exactly what they are doing and I am sure they get a good service from all State agencies established to assist but there is not sufficient support for the ordinary Irish person who wants to do something. That omission will have to be addressed if we are to make any improvements in the present situation.

I would like to deal for a few minutes with our Prison Services. Reading through the latest report of the Garda Commissioner it is sad to note that he reports a significant increase in crime for the last year of 10 and 12 per cent, less than 6 per cent of an increase in any one division or county. I had the opportunity during the periods of a number of Ministers for Justice of serving on the Visiting Committee of Portlaoise Prison, an interesting assignment. During those years I visited possibly all the penal institutions in the State.

If one is active on a visiting committee and one tries to do what the Minister asks, which is to help, to represent and see that prisoners' rights are protected, one finds out quickly that prisoners have many social problems. It is a sad situation from which one must distance oneself to see in what way the system is impinging on inmates and how they are coming through it. I am not satisfied that our prison system is offering an environment conducive to reform or education.

I would like to see the new Minister for Justice embarking on a distinctive policy of streaming prisoners. Our new prison at Wheatfield should be allocated to first offenders and young offenders and should have in-house educational facilities and as many reformed systems as possible. If these people turn up for a subsequent offence, they should be held in one of the older more austere places and the regime should be significantly tougher and harder.

Much money has been spent on the prison system. Those who work in it are doing an excellent job but the emphasis is not on reform or education. The living conditions of some prisoners are perhaps too austere because most of our institutions are old. Portlaoise Prison was built during the reign of Queen Victoria and while it is very solid and very safe from the States' point of view, extra money could be spent improving the environment of the prison. The service otherwise is quite good.

The prison system can achieve character reform only if the physical environment is conducive to that. We could do with more open prisons which would be necessary to segregate prisoners. First offenders must be segregated from habitual criminals; our only hope is to lead people away from the problems that got them into trouble in the first instance. Prisoners, especially civil prisoners, have many social problems. A high percentage of them are not literate and a very determined effort should be made to ensure that their time in prison will be spent ensuring that they are better equipped to face the world and to conform to social norms. I do not know if there is a perfect solution. Recently I visited an institution where I saw people who were brain damaged and was told they were glue sniffers. In conversation they do not display emotion and may or may not know their name. Glue sniffing became popular in recent years and I, for one, did not take it seriously until I saw the end result: fine specimens of humanity sitting there with absolutely no emotions, brain dead; a severe penalty for anyone to carry.

I can only compare our education system with the system some years ago in the European schools when I was Vice-President of the Commission for Cultural Affairs and had the opportunity to visit all the European Commission institutions. The teaching of the Irish language in this country has been an abject failure because, while everybody was subjected to compulsory study of the subject until recently, few people are competent at speaking the language. When Gael Linn introduced Buntús Cainte 20 years ago, I thought it was a good scheme and I still have the tapes. It equips a person to carry on a simple conversation in Irish and I would like the Minister for Education to consider the introduction of Buntús Gaeilge, Buntús French, Buntús German or Buntús Italian at national level as early as possible.

At first level in infants' school teachers do a good job teaching Irish with the use of wall charts and if we were to take in another continental language it would give children an opportunity of thinking in it and speaking it and it would provide an earlier introduction to foreign languages. Why not try it in a couple of schools and see if it is beneficial? That seems to be the approach in Holland and in Denmark; if you stop an ordinary person in the street to inquire the way he or she seems to have the facility to converse in any number of European languages. We should look at the practices in those countries that produce competent multi-linguists.

In the past couple of years the Department of Education have been endeavouring to amalgamate smaller schools. In Laois they amalgamated four or five schools and in my own parish two were closed down, another in Abbeyleix and one in Durrow; all these pupils were redirected to the community school in Ballinakill. The problem is that five or six hundred students were moved into a new complex before the physical facilities were provided and 50 teachers or more try to work under the most deplorable conditions. In my 30-odd years as a public representative I have never seen a school where children are obliged to operate a one-way traffic system because the school corridors are too narrow to accommodate the flow of children from one class to another. The one-way traffic system means they must walk in whatever direction the flow is going. Even if they are going to the room next door, they must walk through the yard in hail, rain or snow and back the other end of the corridor. I do not know what motivates the people in the planning section of the Department of Education or what effect that kind of codology is going to have on students who enjoyed comfortable physical surroundings and classrooms in the schools that were closed and knocked down although some of them were only 20 years old. I do not understand the haste, and it is difficult to understand or appreciate what benefit it is to these children.

We talk and concern ourselves about emigration and worry about unemployment but if we do not give young people a positive and progressive education how can they embark on active lives. If the Department operate in other counties in the way they have been pussyfooting around in my county, then they have a lot to answer for. I do not know where one should lay the blame, but that kind of forward planning is unacceptable in the 1990s. It is absolutely unacceptable that before they have even moved into a new school it is already so overcrowded they have to have one-way traffic. This is unbelievable and one would need to see it for oneself.

Debate adjourned.

An Cathaoirleach

Will the Acting Leader of the House say when it is proposed to sit again?

Mr. Fitzgerald

It is proposed to sit at 2.30 p.m. on Wednesday, 11 March, 1992.