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Seanad Éireann debate -
Thursday, 19 Mar 1992

Vol. 131 No. 18

Meat Processing Company's Financial Crisis: Statements (Resumed).

Everybody is shocked and saddened by the closure of the UMP group of companies. Since 1974, when operations commenced in Ballyhaunis, the company expanded to the position where in 1991 they accounted for 14.5 per cent of cattle and 24.5 per cent of sheep slaughtered at Irish meat export plants. Approximately 600 people were employed by the company which had a turnover of approximately £250 million. Most of those people were employed in the Ballyhaunis and Ballaghaderreen plants and the laying off of the workforce at those two plants has dealt a very serious blow to the local community.

My heart goes out to those who have lost their jobs. I realise the anguish they and their families are going through. Indeed, if they could walk down the road into another job the situation would be different but, unfortunately, job opportunities are not available in the west. To many people their job at UMP was a lifeline that paid the mortgage and put meat on the table. To the small farmer the pay packet was a welcome supplement to the ever decreasing income from the land. The seasonal worker got a job in the autumn when the killing started and work on the farm finished. The local traders benefited from the pay packets circulating in the areas as did all the other service industries that depended on the meat plants. The closures affect not just the workforce of over 350 but also many others outside the plants.

To many in the Ballyhaunis-Ballaghaderreen area the news of the financial crisis in the meat plants did not come as a surprise. These rumours had been circulating since 1990. The fire at the Ballaghaderreen plant in January, estimated to have cost £15 million, led to the immediate crisis. Short-term credit facilities of £15 million were approved to help the group survive, but when repayment of these loans became overdue, an examiner was appointed to the group by the High Court on 17 February last, with permission to borrow £3 million. On 2 March the examiner was given permission to borrow a further £4 million, having successfully borrowed the £3 million previously approved. In spite of his best efforts, he was not able to put a financial package together to save the company. It was obvious that the company was in a far more serious position than originally thought and that the banks were not prepared to invest more money unless the company were restructured. Putting the company into receivership was inevitable once that situation had arisen. I feel satisfied that this is the only way the plants can again be put into operation.

For the past week or so I have listened with dismay to Opposition spokesmen accuse the Government of inaction in the present crisis. They have tried to distort the facts and to blame the Government and the banks for not putting up money to save the plants. How could the Government and the banks continue to pour money down a bottomless hole? The management structure of the company was wrong and as long as that structure remained in place there was no guarantee that more money would not be taken out of the country, as, I believe, has happened. Opposition spokes-persons know that, so I can only conclude that their interests lie in their own political advancement. They are endeavouring to achieve this by playing on the emotions of the workforce who have been made redundant.

The Government have been accused of favouritism towards the Goodman group. I refute that allegation. The Government gave no money to the Goodman group. They did speed up the enactment of legislation, the same legislation being used to appoint the examiner to UMP. The Opposition are aware of that but they are prepared to continue to distort and confuse the issue for their own selfish ends.

As regards the Government interest in UMP, national grants approved for four of the UMP plants — two at Ballyhaunis, one at Camolin and one at Ballaghaderreen — amounted to £2,675,250 and FEOGA grants approved for the same projects amounted to £5,453,451. I do not know how much of those grants was drawn down by the company, because that depended on the amount of work carried out, but I am satisfied that most of that money was used by the company. I have given the approved figures and it was up to the company to draw the grants as work was finished. The company have been helped by the Government over the years, and it is not fair to say that nothing was done for them.

I understand farmers' reluctance to deliver livestock to the plants until all outstanding bills have been paid to them, but I also understand that that is not now a problem. The receiver has guaranteed that all outstanding cheques will be honoured.

The premises will be offered for sale on Friday and the receiver is confident that a buyer or buyers can be found and that the factories can be back in operation by April. In that way, all or most of the jobs will be secured. We all want to see those people back at work as soon as possible.

The past few weeks have been very traumatic for the western region. At any time the closure of a factory can have farreaching effects because, in the present recession, replacement jobs cannot be provided easily. I have experience of that through my involvement with the Tuam community when the sugar factory closed. I know the hardship and the anguish felt by the Tuam community at that time, so I can well understand the feelings of the people of Ballyhaunis, Ballaghderreen and other areas where UMP plants provided valuable employment.

So far everything that could be done by the Government and the banks has been done. I am satisfied that the outcome will be favourable, that the plants will be re-opened — please God, by April — and that all the jobs that have been lost will be secured. That is the outcome we all want. The Government, the Department of Agriculture and Food, the Minister for Agriculture and Food, Deputy Walsh, and the Minister of State Deputy Browne, have been actively involved in discussions with the receiver over the last couple of weeks. They will leave no stone unturned to secure the jobs of those who have been made redundant in the past couple of days.

I welcome the Minister to the House and congratulate him on his appointment. This is the first opportunity I have had to do so in the House.

Yesterday was a very black day for the people of the west. One of the greatest calamities to hit the west in recent times occurred yesterday; in fact, I believe it is the greatest calamity to hit the west since the famine. The exodus from the area over the past four or five years will increase as a result of the redundancies announced yesterday. Yesterday was also a black day for jobs in Ireland. At a time when we should be trying to preserve jobs and when we are negotiating a jobs forum, nationally 630 jobs have been lost — effectively that figure should be over 1,200 jobs because of jobs lost in the service area. Much play has been made of these 630 jobs but we must bear in mind that the meat industry is at a low point in the season but during the peak period — from July to December — the number of jobs would almost double. Therefore, one is talking about the loss of 1,000 jobs as a result of yesterday's decision. The Government do not seem concerned and have not made an effort to negotiate with the banks to secure the survival of those jobs and enable the company to regain its previous position, a position that was damaged by the unfortunate accident at Ballaghaderreen.

Yesterday was also a black day for the agriculture industry. There is a need for proper outlets for agricultural produce in the west. Proper outlets are important for farmers, hauliers, agents and others who service the industry. Those people are also losing their livelihood but they have not been taken into consideration in the discussions on the job losses and factory closures. There are many more people involved than the 630 who were affected by the decision of the receiver yesterday. Obviously they were not interested in maintaining those jobs. For example there were no discussions with the IDA to ensure a continuance of those jobs in the interim. Fóir Teoranta have been abolished; had they remained in existence, they would have been in a position to step in and rescue the company, thereby ensuring a continuance of that industry in the west. It is my belief that the IDA should have subsumed that role because of the devastating effect in the west and in the Limerick, Wexford and Cork areas occasioned by the closures there.

Obviously the receiver decided, on appointment, that he would clear the decks so that he would not be faced with the difficulty of servicing workers as well as assets. Therefore, people became incidental to the overall exercise, rendering the workers in those factories dispensable. Of course, it comprised a more marketable asset to sell the factories without their workers, placing workers lower on the agenda, leaving the receiver with a more marketable asset since any new buyer would not have to service the workers. The outcome of all this will be devastating from an economic and confidence point of view in the west, since we have already had evidence of the Government and authorities not being interested in what is taking place there. Indeed, they allowed circumstances to evolve in which redundancies occurred and did not take appropriate steps to ensure the survival of those jobs.

I should like to express my sympathy with the workers who have been made redundant. I know there is a question of their being given money to assist them, but anybody who examines the position will readily realise that the statutory redundancy payment is hardly a substitute for a permanent job, particularly in the case of a worker with, say 20 years' service, earning £200 a week — which would be the average wage in a meat plant — who would receive something in the region of £1,200, a mere six weeks' wages — no substitution for a permanent job. The suggestion that these workers needed money merely raises a red herring, it being no substitute whatsoever for their previous employment which — up to a few weeks ago — they might well have expected would have continued for the remainder of their working lives. Now they and their families have been traumatised; they do not know where to turn or what to do. Probably their only choice for survival is emigration — one hopes they will not be forced to do so — but what other alternative is available to them in the west and the other areas where these factories are being closed? What else is there for them? For example, many of them see their brothers and sisters from the west taking the boat. Such people, especially those with families, have no choice but to emigrate seeking employment elsewhere.

The devastation this closure has caused in the west — losing its flagship industry — is an omen of what will happen in other areas. It is my belief that such devastation will percolate to the mid-west when we will witness a change in the status of Shannon Airport, already mooted by Government. While there appears to have been a softening-up approach in that respect over a period by the former Minister for Tourism, Transport and Communications, the position has not been clarified by the present Minister. If there is a change in the status of Shannon Airport — and the figures I am about to produce have been proved repeatedly — I predict there will be a loss of 2,000 jobs in the mid-west since, once the west has been devastated, that will percolate through to the mid-west causing the next tranche of rural depopulation.

It is my belief also that the Government and the IDA took a very short term view of the overall position at United Meat Packers. If those workers are to remain here their social welfare payments will cost the Exchequer £4 million annually. The Government should have invested some of that money maintaining the plant for a short period thereby allowing for recovery.

It is my belief also that the banks have a social role to play in all this. Many people contend that the banks merely have an economic or commercial role to play. Being a crucial element in our economy they must recognise their inherent social role. Indeed, in the present circumstances, the banks may well have had an alternative agenda, they being now a majority shareholder, with over 50 per cent equity in a competitor company of United Meat Packers. In order to reap their return on that investment — as they would see it — it would be in their interest to remove some of the strong competition occasioned by the existence of the second largest meat company in our beef industry. There is also a grave danger that the farming community will lose confidence in the meat industry. Too often they have had their fingers burned by sending cattle to meat factories and not being paid for them. They are the innocent victims of the circumstances which have been allowed to evolve here. Many such farmers see their livelihood being decimated as a result of what has occurred. I contend the Minister should ensure that such farmers are paid immediately in order to re-establish their confidence in the overall meat industry which is so crucial to our economy and future generally.

I will dwell briefly on the failure of the meat industry to achieve its full potential vis-á-vis job creation over the past 15 years during which period reports were prepared at six-monthly intervals with regard to that potential. Not alone has that industry not developed to its full potential but it has regressed. For example, in the United States, there are three people employed in the agri-business for every one on the farm whereas the opposite is the case here, with three farmers for each person employed in our agri-business. Our Government and meat industry have failed totally by not developing the industry sufficiently, because the potential is still there. We must change our approach, tapping that potential for job creation, rather than eliminating jobs in the industry. In addition, we must identify markets, producing goods, rather than continuing our traditional approach of commodity trading. Commodity trading is easy and can be lucrative in the short term, but has no long term strategy and/or benefits for job creation or industrial development. Therefore, we should initiate an immediate strategic plan to divert industry from that strategy.

Our approach to wholesale marketing, without any direct connection with the consumer, surely flies in the face of all the marketing principles that should be applied to what is one of our main industries. When one takes into account carcase and boneless beef exports, the remainder is comprised of a mere 3 per cent of the industry which is fully processed. There is no investment in marketing. Indeed, companies involved in the meat industry have much to answer, in addition to the Government, for not having developed such markets, whereas many of them had given the impression they were highly market orientated. Now that the truth has been exposed it transpires they had little or no marketing expertise and no interest in developing value-added products which would result in an increase in jobs and benefits for our economy. Irish beef is not so much sold by Irish exporters but bought by Irish importers. We have to accept the market price which is the price the customer will pay.

The seasonal pattern of production favours a commodity approach rather than a market oriented approach to selling beef. It should be established as policy to change from seasonal production, which has been accentuated by the growth of intervention. Even though there has been some pull back from that over the past two years the seasonal pattern of production favours a commodity approach. The customers of Europe, and throughout the world, require beef all year. There is no point in flooding the market with beef at one part of the year and then not supplying them the rest of the year. That will not do. The supermarkets of Europe, and elsewhere, require beef all year and we do not service that market. We have no basis for long term development.

Our approach is more appropriate to a colonial dependency of the past rather than to a self-sustaining economy. We have no long term market relationships whatsoever with consumers throughout the world. We should have incentives to develop products to satisfy customer demands.

Intervention, unfortunately, has encouraged this commodity approach. It provides a protection which is not real, and has killed the incentive to get close to the consumer and establish what the consumer requires, and to identify the products that different cultures favour. There are great opportunities to more than double the number of jobs in the industry at present. This is what we should be talking about instead of the present crisis in the industry.

The meat industry has no brand image abroad. We have no brand name such as "Kerrygold". We have not developed products to suit customers abroad.

Irish beef does not have a presence overseas. We should have a premium position in the market-place. The opportunites exist if the right policies are put in place. There are opportunities for a branded product in the market. We need urgently to develop a beef policy involving the Government, the farming organisations, the meat industry, once it has reasserted itself, and the EC.

When the jobs forum gets off the ground it should look at the potential for establishing jobs in a properly developed meat industry.

We have failed to create jobs not only in developing products but also in processing byproducts. We have not set up tanneries, tallow processing, meat and bonemeal processing enterprises or canning factories. The potential for job creation should be looked at in the context of a proper jobs forum.

Such an approach would result in increased job opportunities, an increasing flow of money to the economy, and higher prices for farmers. Employees would benefit from the jobs created in the industry and the agricultural community would benefit from higher prices for a product that would be properly marketed throughout the world.

At the outset may I thank the Leader of the House, and the Whips, for making time available for this important debate. As I said last week, it is to our credit that at least the House can give its attention to these topical and serious matters. It is trying on the nerves to prepare something at such short notice.

Not for journalists like the Senator.

We always meet the deadline.

I welcome the Minister of State to the House, congratulate him on his appointment and wish him well with his portfolio. It is important that we in this House respond to this tragedy. It is a tragedy especially for those people who are living in the west, the company's employees and the farmers who supplied cattle and sheep to UMP. It seems that as every day passes the story gets worse. What we assumed to be true this day last week has now been shown to be even worse. That is regrettable. When we discussed the matter a week ago it was indicated that the amount of money outstanding during the examinership was £2.25 million. From this morning's newspapers it appears that the debts from the examinership are £6.5 million. That was a rapid increase in one week. What was not clear was who was in receipt of cheques which represented this debt. Does the farmers' portion represent £2.25 million or £6.5 million? Will the Minister enlighten us about this when he replies later? I am not clear as to where this debt rests. I will deal with the question of the farmer creditors and other creditors later.

I am sure all sides of the House are concerned about the employees who have lost their jobs. We hope they will return to their jobs soon. We are also concerned about the farmers who are affected by this closure, particularly those living in the rural communities in the west. One is apprehensive as to the future of those communities in any event, even given favourable circumstances. This will be a very serious blow to the west.

We were all inspired by the initiative taken by the bishops in bringing a sense of self-help and hope to the west. I hope their efforts and the efforts of the communities in the west to fight their way out of the situation will be rewarded. I hope they will continue to fight for their region and for their just deserts, so to speak, from the European Community.

On the Order of Business this morning reference was made to the community of the regions. It is fair to say that the west as a region in our own country has fared badly. We must do everything in our power to ensure it does not suffer the same fate when increased assistance flows to this country from the European Community. We should see to it that the west gets its fair share of that assistance. The collapse of this company had nothing to do with the fact that during the course of the examiner's investigations the banks would not advance an extra £3 million or £4 million or whatever was required by the examiner. It is evident from this morning's papers, if it was not evident before, that any company who have liabilities of the order of £60 million and assets which are put at £20 million are in no position to continue trading. Therefore the examiner's inability to raise £4 million did not cause the failure of this company.

It has also been suggested that there was some preferential treatment for the Goodman organisation when both Houses of the Oireachtas were recalled to go through parts of the Companies Act so that an examiner could be appointed to the Goodman group of companies, and that Goodman received treatment that was not afforded to UMP. In fact the situation for both companies was the same. The Goodman Group had the protection of the Companies Act, an examiner was appointed and in that particular case the examiner was successful in arriving at a solution. In the UMP case an examiner was appointed under the Companies Act but was not successful in achieving a favourable outcome. During the past week many people have been blamed for what has happened. The Government, the banks, farmers who have declined to send livestock to the company, and maybe even the employees, were blamed. One group of people whom I have not heard blamed were the management; and they must have had something to do with the unfortunate predicament of the company in being unable to continue. Obviously they have a responsibility in this matter.

The question arises as to how banks and regulatory institutions can allow debts of this magnitude to accumulate? How can these so called black holes which we hear about occur? Surely we ought to have learned our lesson by now. It seems to go on and on and we continue to hear talk about the potential of the food industry. I agree the food industry has potential but if we continue down this road I fail to see how that potential can be developed because there appears to be one disaster after another in the meat business. If we are to produce a high quality product and export it to a market of 300 million people, we seem to be making very poor progress down that road. Perhaps we can point to the reliance we have had on intervention over the years as being one of the deficiencies in that respect. If anybody operating a business has a profitable market available to them — as intervention has been — they cannot be blamed for using that market but it appears they cannot even use that market let alone go out onto the broader market and sell in a competitive environment. Something is drastically wrong if companies cannot sell meat into intervention and make money.

The Culliton report shows the level of output of Irish beef compared to the output of the Community and the level of support which this country receives for that beef. Our level of output is of the order of 5 per cent and our level of support 35 per cent of the EC subsidies to beef. In 1990 our level of support was about 25 per cent and in 1988 it was 33 per cent. The question arises as to where all that money goes. Figures vary concerning the amount of money the farmer receives out of this pool of money which is paid to us by the Community for intervention products. I saw a reference last week which suggested that only 15 per cent of the money found its way into farmers' hands; other sources put it as high as 30 per cent, but it is unquestionable that the beneficiaries of EC funds for intervention products are not the farmers. Other people have benefited but not the farmers. The market for beef would have been significantly worse without the safety net of intervention. Somebody somewhere is getting a lot of money out of the system and I do not know who they are but they are certainly not the farmers. At this stage it might not be an exaggeration to say that the meat business stinks.

I accept that there are meat companies in this country who operate their businesses efficiently and ethically and who can sell their product onto a market and sell it well. Unfortunately, those people who are prepared to run their businesses in an honourable and upright fashion get squeezed out because they cannot compete with the hookery that is going on in other areas of the business and that operates right down to farm level. How can the person who produces beef and who goes into the cattle mart to buy cattle be expected to compete with people who are prepared to use illegal growth promoters? There are farmers who for ethical reasons will not use those products but when they go into a livestock mart they are put at a £60 or £70 a head disadvantage against those who have no compunction whatsoever about using them. Their only objective is to find a way they can use them without being detected. Thankfully, in the recent past the Department have come up with an analytical procedure which will show the presence of these materials in carcases after they have been slaughtered. We have a responsibility to defend the meat producers and the farmers who conduct their businesses properly.

I come now to the creditors of the company: the farmers who supply cattle, the employees who I assume got cheques but I do not know how many of those were returned. It appears that people got cheques stamped under court protection and that those cheques were not honoured. My understanding of the law on this matter is that not only are those people so-called preferential creditors but their claims rank higher than anybody else's. Section 29 (3) of the Companies (Amendment) Act, 1990 reads:

The remuneration, costs and expenses of an examiner which have been sanctioned by order of the court shall be paid in full and shall be paid before any other claim, secured or unsecured, under any compromise or scheme or arrangement or in any receivership or winding-up of the company to which he has been appointed.

That suggests that the people who supplied cattle and sheep to UMP during the period of the examinership are entitled to full payment. Can the Minister confirm that those people will receive full payment in due course and how long is it likely to be before they receive such payment? From my reading of the Act these people are more than just preferential creditors, they have a prior claim over everybody else in relation to what is outstanding to them.

It has also been suggested in some quarters that farmers were in some way responsible for bringing down the company by not supplying cattle when the receiver went in. Obviously it would have been desirable if the companies were continued as a going concern and if they could be sold as such. However, nobody can blame any farmer for declining to supply cattle or sheep if he cannot be sure he will be paid. Farmers have a responsibility to run their businesses just like everybody else in the country and to suggest otherwise is poppycock. They must make sure, when they send in a wagon of cattle or a load of sheep, that they will be paid for that product and in doing so they are merely being prudent. I do not think anybody could blame them for not sending in cattle. I was quite pleased that even the employees in the factories, who are suffering as much pain as the farmers, perhaps more, acknowledged this during the week.

In relation to those farmers who have cheques of up to £10,000 outstanding which have not been honoured, one can only imagine what effect this has had on farm families, particularly in the west where as we are all aware, incomes from farming, are so very low. Therefore the farmers cannot be blamed for taking this stand. In relation to those who supplied cattle and sheep to the factories during the period of the examiners investigations, there is the question of their prospects of being paid.

I have already referred to the potential of the food industry and I believe that our meat industry has potential provided it is properly regulated and those who run their businesses well, efficiently and ethically are rewarded for doing so. It is my hope, and I am sure that of every Member of this House, that these plants will reopen and contribute to the economies of the areas in which they are located, in particular the economy of the west. I am confident that the Minister and the agencies to which he has access will do whatever they can to facilitate this.

I referred at some length last week to the role the banks have played in this matter. I will have no great sympathy for the banks if they have to carry the can in relation to this debacle. They should be able to assess the risk and put the safeguards in place to secure their investments if they cannot do this in a proper way so be it. However, I would be extremely disappointed if it was merely bank warfare that led to this situation. In relation the Goodman affair, certain banks appeared to come out of it quite well in the sense that they were successful in offloading part of their liability on other banks. Is it now the case that the banks, on whom the liability was offloaded, want to get their own back on the banks which "escaped" initially? If it was inter-bank warfare that led to this state of affairs, then the banks have a grave and serious responsibility in this matter.

The banks should also be made aware that it is unacceptable that small farmersuppliers or employees have to carry their liability. In other words, because the banks did not honour the cheques issued during the time the examiner was in place, the debts passed on to the creditors, be they farmers or others, but they are also the banks' clients in the west and it is unacceptable that they should have offloaded their debt on to small livestock producers, the employees and other small creditors in the west.

I hope that these factories will be re-opened. The dairy co-ops in particular have a role to play and I look to them to invest in some of these businesses. Given their record in the dairy industry, one would have confidence in their ability to run meat businesses as well. Indeed there is a precedent for this — Kerry Co-op are already involved in the meat business. It is my hope that they will become involved.

I am also aware that it is proposed in the Culliton report that the IDA and other agencies should take out equity in food companies. This proposal should be considered. If a buyer is found, perhaps the State agencies could become involved by taking out equity.

We all regret that this company have failed but in commercial life failure is acceptable provided one is able to start again and rebuild a business. That is what we are hoping for. Perhaps the best solution in the long term is to get up off our knees and build a business that is better than anything we have had before, but in the meantime we are looking to the Government and the State agencies to do whatever they can to resurrect this company and make it profitable, efficient and able to contribute to the life of the country and in particular the life of farmers and the rural communities of the west.

Cuirim fáilte roimh an Aire Stáit go dtí an Teach seo. Is é an chéad uair a casadh ormsa sa Teach seo é agus guím chuile rath agus bheannacht ar a chuid oibre amach anseo. Tá sé ráite anseo arís agus arís eile inniu gur dona an lá é seo don iarthar, gur uafásach an rud atá tarlaithe san iarthar. Maidir liomsa, ar chaoi ar bith, a bhfuil an chuid is mó de mo shaol caite agam ag obair san iarthar, is féidir liom a rá, gan dabht ar bith, gurb é seo an lá nó an tseachtain is duibhe sa taobh seo tíre ó bhí an bád cónra ag fágáil chuan na Gaillimhe agus muintir na hÉireann ag imeacht amach as an tír agus iad ag fáil bháis leis an ocras.

Tugann an cás seo siar céad bliain muid. Tá mé sásta, de réir an méid eolais atá bailithe agam féin le blianta anuas, nach raibh am níos dearóile i stair na hÉireann ná an t-am i láthair. Ach ná ceapaimis gur inniu nó inné a thosaigh sé seo, mar téann sé siar blianta fada, ní amháin le linn réim an Rialtais seo ach le linn réim na Rialtas go léir ó bunaíodh an Stát. Is drochré é i stair na hÉireann agus i stair an iarthair. Chualamar an sean-nath, "Go hIfreann nó go Connachta"— ba é sin an meon a bhí ag Cromail. Sin é an fhealsúnacht a raibh eacnamaíocht Chromail bunaithe air agus is dóigh liom go bhfuil an fhealsúnacht ann arís ach, níos measa fós, gur muidne féin faoi deara é. D'airigh mé an Seanadóir Dardis ag rá ar ball beag nach raibh aon mhilleán ag dul ar Goodman ná ar an Rialtas, mar nár thug siad aon rud faoi leith do Goodman thar aon ghrúpa eile. Gabhaimis siar go dtí 1988 mar is ansin a thosaigh an meath agus an lobhadh istigh anseo. Nuair a bhí an comhlacht seo ar lorg urrúis le haghaidh easpórtála fuair siad an t-eiteach. Tugadh na hurrúis uilig don bharún feola Goodman. Eisean a fuair an tacaíocht an t-am sin. An uair ba mhó gur theastaigh cabhair agus tacaíocht ón tionscal feola agus ón margaíocht fheola in iarthar na hÉireann i 1988 níor tugadh dóibh é agus as sin amach d'eascair na deacrachtaí atá inniu ann as sin. Tá an saol go dona agus tá chuile shórt a bhaineann leis go dona, agus cad é eiseamláir an Rialtais faoi seo? Tá triúr Airí sinsearacha san iarthar: an tAire Cumarsáide, an tAire Dlí agus Cirt agus an tAire Fuinnimh. Nuair atá an tragóid seo ag tarlú anseo inár measc, cá bhfuil siad? Níl duine ar bith acu sa tír. Tá duine acu i mBoston, duine i Sydney agus an duine eile i Miami, ach ba chóir dóibh bheith i measc a muintire féin in iarthar na hÉireann ag iarraidh rud éigin a dhéanamh chun an tragóid seo, ar a laghad, a mhaolú chun léar dóchais a thabhairt dóibh go gcuirfí rudaí ina gceart.

Maidir leis an scéal seo faoin UMP, tá sé le sonrú nach mbaineann sé le Béal Átha hAmhnais amháin, le Bealach an Doirinn amháin ach leis an iarthar trí chéile. Táthar ag fiafraí anseo an bhfuil sé viable, an mbeidh aon iarthar ann, nó duine ar bith ann amach anseo? Má leanann an scéal mar atá sé tá mé lánchinnte gur mar sin a bheidh sé. Tá údar agam leis sin a rá. Luadh an Culliton report nóiméad ó shin. Ar léigh éinne fós na moltaí atá déanta ag DKM don Culliton report, mar shampla, moladh Uimh. 5: "There should be no differential rates of grant in the different regions of the country." Tá siad a rá, maidir le Bealach an Doirinn, Béal Átha hAmhnais, Conamara nó áit ar bith san iarthar nár chóir dóibh siúd aon phingin bhreise a fháil dóibh féin le hais a bhfuil le fáil acu in aon áit eile sa tír. Sin polasaí atá eisithe ag DKM ar son an ghrúpa seo, molta ag an Aire a chur i ngníomh, agus, de réir mar a thuigim, tá glactha leo.

In áit eile i dtuarascáil DKM, deir sé: "The policy of urging, cajoling or bribing firms into remote locations should be discontinued, in our view. Ireland is a small country, and an estimated 85 per cent of the population live within feasible commuting distance of the 15 main population centres." Sin é polasaí an Rialtais seo anois, is é sin, nach mbeidh forbairt ar bith faoin tuath; go mbaileofaí na hinstitiúidí tionsclaíochta uilig isteach i 15 de bhailte móra na tíre agus don diabhal le muintir na tuaithe, a fhágfaí le bás leis an ocras a fháil thiar i gConamara. Níl mise ag cumadh seo ach ag léamh amach díreach cuid den tuarascáil atá curtha ar fáil ag DKM ina moltar go ndéanfaí é sin. An aon iontas é go bhfuil United Meat Packers Limited sa riocht ina bhfuil siad? An iontas é gur sin an sórt saoil atá i ndán don iarthar, agus go bhfuilimid uilig ag iarraidh beag is fiú a dhéanamh de, muintir an iarthair fanacht beo ina ndúiche féin?

An bhfuil a fhios ag Seanadóirí go bhfuil treoir tagtha cheana féin ón CE, atá ag tairiscint airgid agus deontas d'fheirmeoirí beaga i gConamara ar choinníoll nach dtógfaidh siad claí ná balla, nach mbainfidh siad an féar agus nach gcuirfidh siad leasú ar an talamh: fanaigí sa bhaile, gheobhaidh sibh an dole agus tabharfaimid tuilleadh airgid daoibh ach ná déanaigí tada chun sibh féin a chur ag obair daoibh féin agus don chlann atá agaibh. Sin é polasaí an CE faoi láthair agus tá an polasaí sin le feiceáil sa rud atá ag tarlú san iarthar inniu, an staid ina bhfuilimid i mBealach an Doirinn agus i mBéal Átha hAmhnais.

Breathnaigh arís ar an bpictiúr, cé chomh dona agus atá an pictiúr don fheirmeoir beag le linn na tragóide seo. Tóg ciorcal timpeall ó Arigna thuas i Ros Comáin isteach go Liatroim: acmhainn nádúrtha, gual nó antraicít, agus gan muid bheith in ann rud ar bith a dhéanamh leis. Tháinig an ESB agus dúirt siad, dúnaigí síos é, níl aon mhaith ann. Tagaimis anuas ansin go dtí Baile Uí Odhráin agus céard atá déanta ansin? Chaith an Rialtas seo agus na Rialtais rompu na milliúin punt air agus tá sé caite i dtraipisí acu amach an doras. Acmhainn nádúrtha eile ná forbairt na bportach agus tá sé sin imithe amach an doras chomh maith.

Tagaimis go Béal Átha hAmhnais agus Bealach an Doirinn, acmhainn nádúrtha eile bunaithe ar na caoirigh, ar bheostoc, ar na beithígh, agus arís céard atá ag tarlú: teipthe agus amach an doras. Tagaimis anois go dtí Caisleán an Bharraigh, áit a raibh na monarchana bagúin ab fhearr sa tír ach tá siad uilig scuabtha den talamh. Gabh ansin go dtí an Cheathrú Rua, an Spidéal, go dtí ceantar Chois Fharraige — níl aon chaint ann faoi na háiteanna seo le sé mhí anuas. Tá sé cinn de na monarchana dúnta, agus tá 200 duine i gceantar an Spidéil féin as obair le sé mhí anuas. D'fhéadfainn iad a léamh amach daoibh agus d'fheicfeadh sibh céard atá tarlaithe don iarthar. Níor luaigh mé Tuaim, áir a raibh monarcha bhiatais ann, áit a raibh prátaí á bpróiseáil agus an ceantar timpeall air bunaithe go huile agus go hiomlán ar fhás prátaí — tá siad uilig imithe.

Ná bí ag caint faoin Cuilliton report agus na háiteacha seo go léir sa riocht ina bhfuil siad. Bhí monarcha ar an gCeathrú Rua a bunaíodh le téipeanna a dhéanamh, agus 300 duine fostaithe ann, ach d'imigh sé sin. Bhí sé sin ina scéal chomh truamhéalach le cás Bhaile an Doirinn inniu, agus ní raibh aon chaint ann faoi. Ansin má théimid ó dheas ansin go dtí Aerfort na Sionna, táthar ag iarraidh anois an stádas a bhaineann le hAerfort na Sionna a bhaint den iarthar. Díothú atá á dhéanamh anois ar iarthar na hÉireann ag an bpointe seo. Sin é atá ag tarlú. Cuireann a bhfuil faoi chaibidil agam i gcuimhne dom Nero istigh ina phálas sa Róimh ag casadh fidle nuair a bhí an chathair trí thine. Sin é an chaoi a bhfuil an Rialtas ag an bpointe seo, agus a raibh na Rialtais a chuaigh rompu, ó na tríochaidí ar aghaidh.

Tá chuile shórt cúngaithe isteach, agus tá an fathach uafásach seo, limistéar Bhaile Átha Cliath ann agus chuile shórt istigh ann, áit a bhfuil 70 faoin gcéad den daonra ann, agus thiar i gConamara tá an bánú ag dul ar aghaidh. Mar a dúirt duine ón CE anseo le deireanas: "As no realistic political unit representing, for example, the West of Ireland exists, it is probably fated to remain the playground of the summer visitors, rather than a living community with an expanding population." Sin é breithiúnas an duine seo, sin é an polasaí atá á leanúint. Is rud tragóideach é scéal Bhéal Átha hAmhnais agus Bhealach an Doirinn. Is rud tragóideach é do na feirmeoirí beaga, go háirithe na feirmeoirí beaga ar na sleibhte i gConamara a bhfuil a gcuid uan agus caorach ar brath ar an tionscal seo. Níl mise ag dul a chaint faoin trí nó sé de mhilliúin punt a bhí i gceist ann. Is cuma cé mhéad milliún a bhí i gceist ann is é an toradh céanna atá leis an rud ag deireadh an lae: díothú, bás agus treigean iarthar na hÉireann.

Mar dhuine ón iarthar ní fhéadfainn gníomhú sa Teach seo gan an bhéim is láidre a chur ar mo ghuí, go gcaithfidh rud mór éigin tarlú ó thaobh iarthar na hÉireann de má tá sé i gceist againn leigheas a fháil ar an scéal. Caithfidh muintir na hÉireann aitheantas a thabhairt, ní amháin do réigiún an iarthair ach do na réigiúin i ngach cuid den tír atá chomh dona céanna maidir le heaspa nirt agus dul chun cinn eacnamúil. Baineann sé seo go dlúth leis an gcoincheap atá againn mar Rialtas agus mar pholaiteoirí: céard atáimid a dhul a dhéanamh faoin iarthar? Tá an oiread sin cainte déanta faoin taobh thiar den tSionainn; tá an oiread sin magaidh agus cur i gcéill faoi, tá an oiread sin airgid caite, cuid mhaith de sin ón CE, gur gá a fhiafraí, céard é an bottom line, mar a deirtar sa Bhéarla. Tá teipthe glan air, is airgead curtha amú é gach pingin de chuid an CE dar cuireadh isteach in iarthar na hÉireann.

Cén fáth go bhfuil teipthe ar na hiarrachtaí? Tá na monarchana á ndúnadh, tá na daoine ag imeacht ar an mbád bán mar a rinne siad céad bliain ó shin. Ach, an bhfuilimid a rá, os rud é gur theip ar na beartais go léir go bhfuil deireadh linn anois, nach féidir linn tada eile a dhéanamh? Tá rud amháin ann nach ndearnadh riamh, níor tugadh aon seans do mhuintir an iarthair dul i bhfeidhm ar a chéile agus riar dá chéile, le cúnamh. Tháinig chuile rud amach as an Teach seo, anuas go dtí an pobal. Níor glacadh le rud ar bith a tháinig aníos ón bpobal. Tugadh an chluas bhodhar dóibh agus níor tugadh seans dóibh dul i mbun a gcuid oibre féin. Sin é an chúis go bhfuil Bealach an Doirinn agus Béal Átha hAmhnais ina scéal uafásach faoi láthair Ba chóir dúinne, mar dhaoine atá ag plé leis an Stát agus leis an bpolaitíocht, bheith fírinneach faoi na cúrsaí seo agus an cosc atá ar dhul chun cinn mhuintir an iarthair a aithint.

Tá trua agam do chuile fheirmeoir beag, do na daoine a bhfuil trucailí ceannaithe acu agus nach bhfuil in ann slí bheatha a bhaint amach dóibh féin. Chonaic mé seo ag tarlú arís agus arís eile mar bhall de bhord Údarás na Gaeltachta, agus, sna hochtóidí cailleadh go leor airgid mar ní raibh ag éirí le deich gcinn de na monarchana móra. Bhí orainn cinneadh a dhéanamh agus iad a dhúnadh agus dul i mbun beartais eile. D'éirigh linn, in 80 faoin gcéad de na cásanna, rudaí a chur ina n-áit agus tá ag éirí go maith leo. D'ainneoin go bhfuil teipthe ar an tionscal seo faoi láthair níor cheart dúinn dóchas a chailleadh, agus níor chóir do mhuintir an iarthair dóchas a chailliúint. Caithimid a shocrú dul i gcomhar lena chéile, aghaidh a thabhairt ar a bhfuil in ndán dúinn agus céard atá á lorg againn, céard é an bealach chun é seo a chur i gcrích agus cur le chéile chun na cuspóirí seo a bhaint amach. Tá orainn a thaispeáint freisin nach bhfuil drochmhisneach tagtha ar mhuintir an iarthair. Is fíor gur tharla a lán le tamall anuas le drochmhisneach a chur ar dhuine ar bith ach bímis dóchasach go mbeidh feabhas ar an scéal amach anseo.

Mar fhocal scoir, tá súil agam go n-éireoidh leis an nglacadóir na trí mhonarcha a dhíol mar aonad amháin, mar, má dhéantar sin tá dóchas láidir ann go dtiocfaidh maith as. Ach má bhristear suas iad agus iad i gcomórtas le chéile, beidh an scéal go dona ar fad.

As a Senator from County Roscommon, I know several of the workers who were made redundant yesterday from the UMP plants in Ballaghaderreen and Ballyhaunis. I know both towns very well, people in business in both towns whose business will be seriously affected by the closure of the plants. I also know many of the farmers who, over the years, have supplied stock to UMP. I am very keenly aware of the importance of both plants, not only to the economies of the two towns but to the economy of the whole region.

The fact that during my contribution to the debate I shall refer mainly to the situation in Ballaghaderreen and Ballyhaunis does not mean I do not also regret the closure of the plants in Sligo, Camolin and Charleville. I do, and I have the greatest sympathy for the workers in those areas who lost their jobs and for all the people whose lives will be affected by the closure of the plants. In that regard we are talking about many people — the families of the workers; the hauliers and those who supplied various services to the UMP plants; the small creditors, many of whom probably will never be paid the moneys due to them; the farmers who are owed substantial amounts for stock they supplied and the small family owned businesses in the towns of Ballaghaderreen and Ballyhaunis, businesses whose survival depended on the pay packets that came from UMP.

For all the centres, the closures and the redundancies are a major blow, but for Ballaghaderreen and Ballyhaunis they are nothing short of a disaster. Yesterday must have been the blackest day for many a year in both towns. Admittedly, the future of the plant in Ballaghaderreen was in some doubt since the disastrous fire in January, which destroyed what was described as the most modern cold store in Europe and £35 million worth of meat. However, because of the assurances given in the wake of that fire, most people believed that the factory would soon be in operation again and that the ruined cold store would be rebuilt. We were told that the plant and its contents had been adequately insured. Then the rumours began to circulate that that was not the case and that the company had cash flow difficulties. Even then, and later still when the examiner took over, nobody believed that the company, which was the second largest meat processor in the country and had been in operation in the west since the mid-1970s, would not be able to survive. I should like a full explanation from management as to the way those extraordinary difficulties arose. I believe the workers and the farmers are entitled to be told about how the massive liabilities — which we are told are more than £60 million — came about.

The next tragic chapter in this sorry tale was the examiner's failure to put together a package that would enable trading to continue. That was bad enough, but worse still, when the examinership came to an abrupt end, there were no funds to meet the cheques issued by the examiner. It is not sufficient to say that these people will be paid in due course. In my view, it is a disgrace that the cheques issued by the examiner have not been honoured: they include the pay cheques issued to workers for that period and the £2.5 million outstanding to farmers for stock supplied to the company during the period it was under the examiner's control.

When the receiver was appointed assurances were repeated that the plant would soon be back in operation. Those hopes were dashed yesterday when it was announced the receiver had laid off the entire staff in all five plants. The receiver stated he took that decision because of the overall financial position, which was very much worse than had been anticipated and because of the uncertainty about supplies of stock. We are informed now that the plants will be put up for sale immediately and will be back in business by mid-April under new management.

In view of all that has happened to date, can we have any confidence that these predictions will materialise? In the meantime, the workers are thrown onto the dole queues. In today's reports, the number of workers is given at 630, of whom 280 are locted at Ballyhaunis and 180 in Ballaghaderreen. However, those figures do not include the many part-time and contract workers engaged in these plants and others, such as hauliers, whose businesses were dependent almost entirely on United Meat Packers, most of whom are owed substantial amounts of money. It begs the question: when, if ever, will they be paid?

Many of the workers are young, married people with families, with huge financial commitments, so that the level of worry and stress on them is enormous; they have no idea what the future holds for them. Having been told so many different stories recently, they do not know who or what to believe.

Equally one must ask the following questions: how did these circumstances evolve in United Meat Packers? Why should a company, which appeared to be trading successfully for over 15 years, suddenly go to the wall? Why did not the difficulties come to light until it was too late to rescue the company? We must realise that we are talking about the country's largest, most valuable industry, the meat processing industry, in which huge amounts of EC and FEOGA funding are involved. Surely the Department of Agriculture and Food have some role to play ensuring that individual firms engaged in this industry operate on a sound financial basis? Early identification of problems would enable action to be taken in sufficient time to secure the massive investment and huge number of jobs involved.

In the circumstances, the workers are not the only people who will lose. The farmers in the region will suffer as well; for example, those owed for stocks supplied during the period of the examinership will have to wait God knows how long for payment. Others with stock to sell will lose vis-á-vis price, it having become extremely difficult to get beef cattle into any factory because of oversupply. In addition, the value of cattle that become over-fat will drop considerably. Many creditors may never be paid the money due them. In addition, businesses in all the towns involved will suffer. There are so many ancillary jobs dependent on United Meat Packers in Ballaghaderreen and Ballyhaunis that the effect of this clousure will be catastrophic on a region already decimated by emigration and unemployment.

The question now is where do we go from here? The Government have a major responsibility to ensure every possible effort is made to have these plants reopened. It is essential that these plants be back in operation to handle the large numbers of lambs coming onto the market over the next couple of months.

I am pleased to see the Minister of State at the Department of Agriculture and Food, Deputy Browne of Wexford, present for this debate. I welcome him to the House. The circumstances in the case of United Meat Packers have changed drastically since last week. The circumstances which have arisen as a result of the decision to render the entire workforce redundant, create an entirely new scenario since we are now talking about 630 direct job losses and the indirect effect of the closure on hundreds of other jobs.

I perceive these new circumstances as ones in which the Minister for Industry and Commerce, Deputy O'Malley, has a vital role to play, and in which he has direct responsibility. Indeed, I am most disappointed that it is not the Minister himself who is present here today so that we could ascertain his views on the new circumstances that have arisen. One may well ask: what steps his Department propose taking to deal with these job losses. What steps do the IDA propose taking to have this highly skilled workforce re-employed at the earliest possible date? Are the IDA prepared to become involved in taking equity in the plants if the receiver is successful in getting buyers for them? As the Minister directly responsible, I should like an assurance from Deputy O'Malley that the IDA will not be found wanting.

It is crucial to the west that the plants at Ballaghaderreen and Ballyhaunis be saved so that the jobs are not lost to the region. Certainly the banks, agricultural co-operatives and farming organisations have a major role to play as well in rescuing these jobs. Nonetheless I contend it is the responsibility of the Minister for Industry and Commerce and the Government to co-ordinate the efforts of the various interests in overcoming whatever difficulties and obstacles may be encountered in getting these plants back into operation. It is my sincere hope that the efforts of all concerned will be successful, but I do not share the optimism being expressed in certain quarters at present. Nonetheless, for the sake of the workers, the farmers and all concerned I hope I will be proved wrong, that we will see a successful recommencement of work in all the plants in question, but particularly in Ballaghaderreen and Ballyhaunis.

May I welcome the new Minister of State at the Department of Agriculture and Food, Deputy Browne, to the House, congratulate him on his appointment and wish him every success in his new role. I suppose it could be said he has been subjected to a baptism of fire, having been thrown in at the deep end, which may well stand to him in the long term, even though it may create difficulties in the short term.

Undoubtedly what has occurred in relation to United Meat Packers is a disaster. It is a disaster for those people who worked in the plant, for their families and for the farmers. It is a disaster for the traders in the area and for the many people located in the hinterland of these beef processing plants who derived their income from their successful operations.

I agree with Senator Mullooly when he spoke of the need for the Minister for Industry and Commerce to become involved in the genesis of a solution to the problem. It is imperative that the Government take a "hands on" approach in an endeavour to produce a solution to the crisis which, like many another in the beef industry, appears to have occurred like a bolt out of the blue.

I want to make one or two brief comments on Senator Pol Ó Foighil's contribution. Frankly, I consider his remarks were considerably over the top. In addition, there appeared to be considerable inconsistencies when, on the one hand, he began by talking in terms of coffin ships and so on — which smacked more of the rhetoric of the last century — while, on the other hand, at the end of his contribution, he appeared to say that everything would be all right if the three plants were kept together, put back as a viable unit, re-employing the workforce. I find it difficult to reconcile the tone of the earlier part of his remarks with that of his concluding remarks.

A very serious, real problem has emerged in the west and in the other areas where such plants are located, but I do not believe wild rhetoric plays any useful role in generating a solution to those problems, whose initial dimensions, unfortunately, were grossly understated. Initially, there was talk of a sum of £4 million being required to render the plants viable again whereas, it emerges from today's press, there are debts in excess of £60 million, with the assets of the companies reckoned to be worth £15 million to £20 million. Clearly there is an enormous difference between those figures and that of the £4 million bandied about at the beginning of this crisis.

Clearly, many people are going to be badly stung at the end of this affair. The banks will be among that group and it seems obvious that some of the international banks in particular will be badly stung. I do not hold any brief for the banks, indeed, I am quite critical of them, but when international banks trading in this country are affected by such a crisis, this has unfortunate and unwholesome side effects for this country's reputation. This is a matter of considerable regret.

It is obvious also that many of the unsecured creditors will get little or nothing when the company is wound up. The banks will be among those unsecured creditors. The banks evaluate the risks, and can cope with what is happening here, but I am very worried about the effect this will have on those farmers whose debts are unsecured and on small businesses in the west which are owed money by this company and face the prospect of getting little or nothing of the money owed.

However, it would be foolish not to recognise that what has happened in relation to United Meat Packers is not part of a pattern. There have been a series of disastrous collapses in the meat processing business over the past number of years and this is just one disaster in a long line of disasters. The most spectacular disaster was the collapse of the Goodman empire, but this is the second biggest disaster in a series of disasters. There was the collapse of Clover Meats, Duffy's Meats and Towey Meats and the curious Irish phenomenon where, at election time, cheques were posted on lamp posts to make a political point on the collapse of a meat company. In another incident people were kidnapped and driven around Connacht in the middle of the night in an attempt to get the money people felt was owed to them by those in that meat business.

This is part of our culture. What we are seeing now is part of a long tradition. In many ways, what has happened in UMP over the past few days is part of what we are. It results partly from our inability to think long term; and our enthusiasm to make the quick buck. It is part of our simple-minded approach to the notion of the quick buck. We seem to be unable to recognise that there is no long term future in that type of carry on.

We have seen appalling behaviour in the abuse of angel dust; some speakers have already mentioned it. That is another example of how people in the meat industry will invariably resort to the quick fix and easy way no matter how damaging that type of behaviour is to the long term prospects of the industry.

I believe that the meat industry has been characterised by the mentality of cattle jobbers and that these underlying realities have resulted in disasters, as we have seen in the case of UMP. The mentality in the meat industry is derived, I believe, from the fundamental principles of the behaviour and attitude of cattle jobbers. Simply stated, it is the idea that you could pull the wool over people's eyes and that they will not understand or realise what is happening. It might be possible to do that in the short term, but in the longer term people are bound to cop on. That is the kind of thinking process which has left us in the very sorry state we are now experiencing in the west.

There is no future in not recognising that the solutions to the difficulties in the beef industry are going to be painstaking, long term and will have to be based on a step by step approach. Unless we are prepared to accept that, there will continue to be further disasters.

One of the big problems in the meat industry is that it has not invested in worthwhile technology or product development. The technological base and capacity of the meat industry is disastrously low. If anybody analyses the levels of technical expertise in the meat industry, they will find they are very poor and compare very unfavourably with the levels of technical expertise in the dairy industry. There is a very sharp contrast between the technological capacity of the dairy industry and the meat industry and I can well see why Senator Raftery should feel proud of his faculty at University College Cork and the work they have done over the years in a step by step, slow systematic way to build up and provide the back-up which is essential for our dairying industry. Our failure to put a similar structure together for the meat industry is one of the factors which has led to the present crisis.

We have made little or no effort to develop markets, we have no branded products, we have simply adopted an attitude of dumping meat into intervention and that is the end of it — we got our money and away we go. That attitude is a recipe for disaster and unless we are prepared to change, we can expect to see more disasters.

It is of little use to overstate the effects of this problem. There have been fairly considerable overstatements of the numbers in the workforce who will be affected by this disaster. I am not anxious to get involved in political point scoring. My main concern — it has been my concern for a long time — is that we begin to take the necessary action to develop the meat industry. Everybody tells us the meat industry has a considerable potential to be profitable. We could fill a whole library with reports on the meat industry. There has been a series of them done by the ESRI, Coopers and Lybrand, Professor Sheehy and John O'Connell in UCD, and the list goes on, yet, we have been unable to implement most of the suggestions and proposals in those reports.

The question should be asked, why has that happened? Of course, there are reasons but if the meat industry were to become a viable, progressive long term industry with secured markets, there would need to be considerable changes. Some key players in the meat industry and in Irish life would lose out. Those people would not only take a very poor view of this, but they would begin to throw their political weight around. There are plenty of precedents where some of these people have done that in the past.

Some of the politicians who sought to confront them were pilloried in a prolonged, sustained way. These are the realities of Irish life and Irish politics. It is foolish, naive and simple-minded for us to look at the enormous potential of the meat industry and say that it will happen but it will not happen unless some very hard decisions are taken.

The sharp contrast between the meat industry and the dairy industry is exemplified by the presence of dairy firms, such as Mitchelstown Creameries, Golden Vale, Ballyclough and similar organisations. Those companies have been in existence for a very long time. The founding fathers set something in motion and the people in that industry have kept it going. Those companies have built up a reputation which is in sharp contrast to that in the meat industry.

We had the so-called beef barons, or meat barons, who waltzed around the centre stage and within a short period walked off again, or were blown away in a disastrous collapse. We need to analyse the reasons that is so and set in motion the necessary movements to ensure these people are curbed. We need to think of the long term.

I hope some of the big dairy co-operatives will become involved in the purchase of these plants. Those cooperatives have a good understanding of what is involved in the food industry. They know what that business is about and are in the business for the long term. They also have a good understanding of what can and cannot be achieved. They know that certain types of behaviour catch up with a person three or four moves down the road. For that reason it is very important that these organisations become involved. It is also important because they understand technology, they are familiar with it, they have contact back to University College Cork and the various research organisations. My suspicion, for what it is worth, is that many of the meat factories work almost in isolation. They work around the principle of killing cattle, sawing them down the middle and dumping the carcases into intervention. There is no future in that.

I hope the plants will re-open and that they can be put back into operation. The cattle are still on the farms and will have to be processed. It is important that the plants go back into business as soon as possible. More than anything else, I sincerely hope we will learn from this disaster and realise there was no long term future in continuing as we were. I hope we will be able to cast a cold eye over the euphemisms, wild talk, harmless idiotic praise and exultation which was heaped on some people when it was not justified.

As has been said today and, indeed, last week the livestock and beef trade is of paramount importance to this country. It has a major influence on our balance of payments. For that reason, we must be vigilant and careful to ensure nothing damages that industry beyond repair. The series of events referred to by Senator Upton were very disturbing. As he mentioned, we had the closure of Clover Meats and the Towey plant and so on. As one who was at the losing end of the Clover Meats receivership in the early eighties I can identify with the many farmers who are now holding pieces of paper that are virtually worthless.

Regardless of what has been stated, and will be repeated, I can speak from my experience of the Clover Meats collapse. At the end of the day we got 50p in the pound, in other words 50 per cent, of what we were owed. That must not be allowed to recur. We made pious and definite promises to ourselves, and others, that there would not be a repetition but there has been. Farmers are holding £2 million worth of cheques which I hope can be cashed in a short time.

The Government have a responsibility to underwrite the financial package that may be worked out with the banks. It would be disastrous in the extreme to divide the five factories into different units and sell them off. there are two saleable factories at Camolin, County Wexford and Charleville, County Cork but the factories at Ballyhaunis, Ballaghaderreen and Sligo may not be so attractive to would-be purchasers. I cannot understand how the liability of £60 million accrued. The position should have been monitored to ensure that the liability did not rise to that level. We are now informed that the value of the assets would only be between £10 million and £20 million. That is difficult to accept because in the five factories there should be a higher sales value. However, in view of the limitations in some, the figure may not be far off the mark. I urge the Government to fill the void because confidence in the beef industry which is so vitally important at this stage, must not be further eroded by developments of this sort.

While I have the utmost regard and sympathy for the workforce in these factories I subscribe to the reluctance of farmers to sending in their stock. According to the law, once a beast goes to the factory and is killed, it is no longer the property of the person who sold it. For that reason farmers have every right to be reticent, slow and careful to ensure that they do not throw good money after bad. A Government guarantee would alleviate the situation because farmers would begin to trade and confidence in the whole operation could be restored. It is frightening to think that approximately 630 jobs have been lost, not to mention the other jobs that relate to this industry.

In relation to the five areas concerned and the small towns and villages within their catchment areas I suggest that instead of 630 people we are probably talking about the livelihoods of another 1,200 people if we take into account small shopkeepers, cattle buyers and those providing various services within the community. These 630 workers had good wage packets at the end of the week and spent their money in these regions. As the majority of the workforce were to be found in the plants at Sligo, Ballaghderreen and Ballyhaunis I submit that those areas are in dire straits as a result of this development. Indeed any confidence or hope that the areas directly affected had — indeed the whole country has been affected — has been shattered.

As a result of this unfortunate development we foresee the Goodman organisation having a monopoly. While this may suit the banks and the Government it certainly will not suit the Irish farmer or worker, because these monopolies are dangerous in the extreme. The Goodman Group were treated far better than UMP were on this occasion.

I wish to refer to the intervention system. I believe that this scheme has been abused in relation to beef. Having carried out some research it appears that between 20 and 30 per cent of the total amount of money available eventually find its way into the pockets of the Irish farmer. While I accept that they cannot receive all of it, this constitutes a very meagre proportion.

When meat plants of the magnitude of UMP collapse, it is very difficult to show enthusiasm in relation to the need to diversify and produce products with added value at the very time we need to show it. There is a belief that we should not allow anything to leave the country until the last penny is added.

That leads me to the question of technology to which the last speaker referred. Indeed, I suggest that there is a need for more technology in the beef industry, as I am certain that An Bord Bainne have been helped enormously by technology. Let me go further and suggest that we should seriously consider establishing a national meat marketing board.

While we do have a national meat promotions board, CBF, we do not have a national meat marketing board. I accept that there would be opposition within the trade, in certain quarters, to this but having regard to developments now taking place we will soon have only a few operators in that trade.

The beef sector — indeed other sectors also — have neglected to carry out market research. They tend to produce a commodity and then try to sell that commodity using good sales techniques. To my mind, that is the wrong way to go about it. We should carry out market research in cities such as Bonn, Paris or London and then meet their requirements. It is important that we do this.

The collapse of United Meat Packers could be described as nothing short of a disaster for this country. It is of no consolation to the workforce merely to offer them some semblance of hope of their being re-employed. Our target should be to ensure that the workforce are re-employed in full. The Government must play a very major role in this.

In talking about the beef trade, there is another factor that must be taken into account having regard to the fact that there have been distortions which have led to massive losses and massive gains for producers in particular. I have proof that illegal growth promoters are now being used. While I compliment the Department of Agriculture and Food for the work they have done to in relation to angel dust more needs to be done if we are to control the use of growth promoters at this time. As I forgot to do so at the outset, let me congratulate the Minister of State, Deputy Browne, on his appointment and welcome him to this House and I wish him well in his position.

We should not be talking about securing part-payment of so many pence in the pound for producers having regard to the fact that livestock producers are finding it difficult to survive given their very slender profit margins. They do not need another slap in the face. As profit margins in the beef industry are very narrow people just cannot afford to accept part-payment. Our objective must be to ensure that farmers are paid in full. Indeed I submit that creditors have a moral right to be paid in full. There is no point in talking about breaking up these factories. If we sell off what are regarded as the attractive units in County Wexford and County Cork, we will be left with unsaleable properties and this will directly affect the position with regard to redundancies. I would not like to see that happen. We should have a policy to expand our beef herd, and United Meat Packers, with their various plants, should be reopened. The Government must exert pressure in this regard. While in the case of various other collapses Governments did not take major action, I submit that his is a unique case that requires special attention. I would ask the Minister of State, Deputy Browne, to carry back to the Cabinet the message that the Government have a major responsibility to ensure that this problem is solved. Otherwise there will be serious consequences not only for the five regions concerned but for the whole country.

It is most important that confidence is restored. Confidence in farming is at an all-time low. As a result of these closures any element of confidence that has existed will be destroyed. I am hopeful that the Government will take this matter on board and find a solution so that the workforce, local shopkeepers and farmers who are owed vast sums of money can continue in business with full confidence in the future.

First, I welcome to the House the Minister of State at the Department of Agriculture and congratulate him on his appointment. I have no doubt that he will acquit himself extremely well in that position. United Meat Packers operate in five counties; three in the west, Roscommon, Mayo and Sligo, and also in Cork and Wexford. From recent reports it appears that a satisfactory conclusion can be arrived at with regard to the two plants in Wexford and Cork, but the same is not the case with the plants in Roscommon, Mayo and Sligo. I do not have to explain to the House the consequences of losing a job in the west, but to lose practically 300 jobs in County Roscommon is a disaster. Apart from the loss of these jobs in the Ballaghaderreen area, the Arigna power station and mines were closed down, as were the Bord na Móna operations at Ballyforan. This is a serious matter for County Roscommon. Most counties, including Roscommon, could possibly survive one closure but how can a county such as Roscommon survive the closure of three major industries — in the northwest, the north-east and the south?

United Meat Packers have been in business here for 18 years and we have benefited from their operations. We appreciate their commitment and the activity they created but one thing that amazes me is that 60 per cent of an industry that is so important to this country is either in trouble or is under investigation at present. Why are we as a nation involved in post-mortems regarding our major industry? Were checks and balances carried out? There is a debt of £60 million in United Meat Packers and, I understand assets of £20 million. Surely some Department had the national interest at stake and should not have allowed our major industry to deteriorate to such an extent. Serious questions have to be answered on this occasion.

The farmers who supply United Meat Packers and the workers who have lost their jobs and, indeed, the Members of this House, are entitled to an explanation as to who is responsible for allowing 60 per cent of a major industry to go to the wall. That downfall has disgraced the name of Irish meat in Europe and other parts of the world. We appear to be suicidal with regard to our main industry. This House, the workers, the farmers and everybody involved are entitled to an explanation.

Senior people in the Government or in Departments should have kept a check on what was going on. When grants were allocated to this company was there not a responsibility on some Department to keep a close watch on their activities? It is of little use at this stage saying that a receiver has been called in, that we are looking for bidders and so on. I fear that the operations in the west will die and will not be replaced if we continue to deal with the matter as we are doing.

Why did Irish banks not have an investment in United Meat Packers? Why was it left to a Paris bank to look after the interests of this company? Irish banks invest abroad and lose large sums from bad investment, but they were not involved in our national industry, particularly in this company. Their attitude when the examiner went in shows how much interest they had in this operation. The time for post-mortems should be over and we should consider the issue on a new plane. Since last week the whole scene has changed. Last week we were expecting the receiver and there was confidence that he could deliver. However, he cannot deliver, that is the long and the short of it.

The Department of Agriculture and Food and the Minister have played their part and I believe it is now time for the Department of Industry and Commerce to play their role. I am taken aback by the silence of the Department of Industry and Commerce. To my knowledge, that Minister has not commented publicly on this saga. I call on the Minister for Industry and Commerce to involve his Department in this industry in the west, in Cork and in Wexford. He has a responsibility, through the IDA, to involve himself in the industry because of the loss of 700 jobs. This is no longer a problem of the meat processing industry, alone, being in trouble. There are now 700 families without a wage packet, not because of anything they did but because somebody else did not keep a check on the United Meat Packers operation. The Department of Industry and Commerce have a direct responsibility at this stage. I ask that the IDA support, restructure and restart the operation. They travel around the world and invite industrialists to set up industries here but here we are talking about our national industry. I believe the first responsibility of the IDA is to protect and develop that industry. The IDA have a primary role to play in restructuring the meat industry in the west and in the other areas.

I also call on the co-operative movement to involve themselves in the meat industry. The time is opportune for farmers to say they will look after their own business and that they do not have confidence or faith in those who are doing it for them because 60 per cent of the busiess is in trouble. The involvement of farmer co-operative movements and the Department of Industry and Commerce, through the IDA, in the meat industry would be a very appropriate and sensible step forward.

Finally, I want the Examiner appointed by the court to issue a public notice that farmers who supplied stock to the meat factories will have their cheques honoured. Those cheques have not been honoured. Farmers have been told, live horse and you will get grass — but that does not say much for the confidence or credibility of people who issue such notices. It is important that cheques issued both to farmers and to workers be honoured straightaway, to put some confidence back into the business and to give credibility to the operation of the Examiner and his public notice. Then the farming community will respond. It must be shown that we can believe a public officer appointed by the courts who issues a public statement in relation to payments.

It is of vital importance to the continued existence, never mind the development of County Roscommon and the other counties involved, that a restructured meat industry be put in place and that the Government, through the Department of Industry and Commerce and the IDA, are seen to be involved and supportive of that restructuring and redevelopment.

The tragic fallout in human terms of the collapse of UMP, our second largest beef and sheep processor, makes an objective assessment of the situation by normal economic criteria very difficult. Because of the human tragedy involved, it is very difficult not to let our emotions cloud our judgment when speaking about the collapse of the company. Not only politicians but also the news media and commentators generally fall prey to this difficulty. It is understandable that more than 600 people being made redundant — and that figure is only the tip of the iceberg — would cause enormous concern.

Six hundred people have lost jobs in the five factories belonging to UMP, but what about the knock-on effect on the traders in the main streets of Ballaghaderreen and Ballyhaunis? What about the small shopkeepers, the hairdressers, etc., who service the communities, that until this week, had a good wage packet to spend? What about the hauliers, with enormous repayments on their vehicles — state of the art vehicles in many case? They had been assured of a good livelihood in servicing UMP. What about the many families who have mortgages, which were taken out in the belief that a family had long term and sustainable employment in their locality? The building societies and all the other institutions will also feel the pinch as people are unable to repay their mortgages. What about the prospects for the schools and the clubs in the counties where the closures have taken place?

Unless the jobs can be salvaged by viable takeovers, emigration must face large numbers of those who now find themselves out of work. If emigration becomes a reality — and we all hope it does not and will do everything we can to ensure that it does not — there will be a decrease in the number of children at school, in teacher numbers and in the number of teams in local sports clubs. There is an enormous knock-on social impact on a community following a collapse as we witnessed in relation to UMP and the problem is exacerbated because the main UMP factories are located in Ballaghaderreen and Ballyhaunis.

The west has its particular difficulties. Statistically, the unemployment rate there is lower than in my County Wexford, where the plant in Camolin is threatened. Being honest, though, the unemployment figures in the west are lower because more people had to take the boat and are not at home to sign for the dole. The unemployment figure is false in itself. In my county, we have more than 23 per cent unemployment. Even though commentators offer some comfort about the future of the Halal plant in Camolin, none of us — including my colleague, the Minister of State, and Senator Hugh Byrne — will rest until the factory is up and running and 80 jobs have been secured. The plant at Camolin is state of the art and was built in recent years. It is also a very environmentally conscious plant; that could not be said about all the Halal meat plants. We are very proud of the plant in Camolin and hope it will have a secure and viable future. As we talk, there are least four groups interested in the Camolin plant, which must be a healthy sign.

It would be of greater of comfort if we could say the same of all the UMP plants. As has been well documented at this stage, the plants in the west face particular difficulties because of their age, location, etc.

Ballyhaunis attracted Sher Rafique's attention back in 1974. He must be credited for coming, putting his money where his mouth was, and establishing and investing in what appeared to be a very viable business. Sher Rafique established a cattle processing plant in Ballyhaunis, where sheep would appear to have been the more plentiful animal at the time. But, by paying 2p and 3p over the odds to farmers in a wide catchment area, he bought their loyalty and they continued to be loyal to him. However, economically, that practice must now be questioned; given the reducing margins in cattle production and processing generally, whether that continued to be a viable policy will now be analysed. No doubt we will get the answer shortly.

To be fair to Sher Rafique and the management team — I will be harsh on them in a minute — but to give credit where credit is due, they did try to establish markets other than intervention but, like many of the meat plants, they were dependent on their share of intervention. For example, they went into an Italian vac-pac beef contract. That was a very high spec job, with a very high trim involved and a high rejection rate. This meant profits were very low and it was hard to ensure a profitable outcome. This contract is, as it were at present hanging out to dry. Hopefully other meat factories will take it up because it is what we are looking to in the future — opening new markets for meat products, value-adding, and ensuring the elimination once and for all of over-dependence on intervention.

However, we must question what went wrong. It is easy to blame the fire in Ballaghaderreen in January. It would be easy to blame the lack of export credit insurance in 1987, even though the present Taoiseach, then Minister for Finance, Deputy Reynolds, must accept his share of precipitating the problems when he refused export credit insurance to Halal, to the UMP group. Again the fact that he opened up export credit insurance was done against the best advice of his civil service and advisers generally. At the time the Goodman Group got the best share placing others trying to trade in the Middle East, particularly the UMP Group with its knowledge of Muslim demands, at a distinct competitive disadvantage. Goodman and others got an increasing share of a market on which, up to that point, Sher Rafique would have been considered the authority in this country, and he was disadvantaged. That is but one of the many causes of the downfall of these plants — and not one to be put aside lightly. The present Taoiseach must accept his share of the responsibility for operating what I can only describe as the old pals act in 1987 when it came to distributing export credit insurance.

There were also general difficulties encountered in the meat trade over the past few years in relation to bovine spongiform encephalopathy outbreak, better known as the "mad cow" disease, which reduced demand for consumption of red meat generally but hit particularly some of the markets Sher Rafique and his team were servicing.

I have mentioned already the overpayment for stock which eventually caught up with them. Indeed, in terms of some of their sheep operations, they depended heavily on mart sheep rather than sheep from local farmers. There are instances of sheep travelling miles to be killed in the UMP plants, whereas no effort was made to canvass local farmers for their produce. This has to be questioned; in many ways they were trading against themselves in marts, sheep destined for the one plant but, if you like, self-trading, causing falsely inflated prices. All those practices will have to be examined.

Above all — having mentioned the fire in Ballaghaderreen, export credit insurance, "mad cow" disease, over-payment for stock, particularly when stock was scarce, they paid under the odds when stock was plentiful — the management structure of the group of companies must be questioned. Ultimately the buck must stop with management. We must examine and analyse it very carefully.

The banks have been the subject of much bashing by politicians, the media and commentators generally. To be fair, they deserve some but not all of it. An objective economic analysis of their decisions would have to find that, once the examiner was in place — and that happened in February when the Banque Nationale de Paris lost confidence and refused to honour cheques — and analysed the story, and what moneys really would be necessary to keep the group of companies afloat, he had no option but to head to the High Court and request a receivership. It would appear to be unfortunate that last week the receiver could guarantee that all jobs would be saved and that the plants would be sold as a going concern, yet, within a matter of days we heard of the redundancies. That may not have been very prudent commenting, but when one hears why the receiver changed his mind so rapidly, it is understandable. The receiver effectively found himself with no cash flow, no supply of stock, a debt of over £60 million — not £40 million, the figure that has been floating around for around the last month or two. In addition, we find that the assets are realistically valued at between £12 million and £15 million, not over £50 million or somewhere between £54 million and £57 million depending on whose commentary one read, as we were told initially. Obviously there was some creative thinking in terms of the figures management must have supplied — where else did the figures come from — in the early days of this crisis leading to the examiner, subsequently the receiver, to take more precipitative action than they might have intended originally.

There has been criticism of different treatment for the Goodman empire when they got into crisis, given that their insolvency was in the region of £520 million compared to the UMP group of companies, whose indebtedness appears to be in excess of £60 million. We must distinguish fact from fiction in talking about this, because it is an emotionally charged issue, given the tragic human fall out. Effectively the Companies Act which was passed urgently at the time of the Goodman collapse, was invoked, in this case and an examiner was put in place in the UMP group in February of this year when the Banque Nationale de Paris and the group of companies lost confidence.

What should happen now? There are many ways we need to analyse this position. Effectively, I contend the Charleville and Camolin companies should be sold. We will not rest easy until they are sold, until the jobs in those plants are secured and they continue as heretofore to give a viable living to their employees and service the farmer/producers in their areas. In relation to the plants in the west, it would appear that their asset value is very little. I would urge that no stone be left unturned by the Government, and the State agencies, particularly the IDA.

I would like the possibility of farmer co-operatives with the IDA taking equity share in such co-operatives, to be vigorously researched by the State structures. The Culliton report has pointed to this as the future for the IDA rather than grant aid taking equity share. This may well prove to be a test of the Government's earnestness in relation to the Culliton report. I would urge immediate constructive investigation of that possibility. The other dairy co-operatives have been urged to expand, to get into the meat business, as distinct from just the dairy industry. They should be encouraged in every way, even with an IDA equity stake backing any investment. I contend there is real possibility in that area.

I feel most of the jobs could be saved, but it would be unrealistic to pretend that all the jobs in UMP will be saved. Another contributory factor to the list of problems I mentioned would be general inefficiency, in that there would appear to have been more jobs in the various plants than were necessary for efficient production. Even though it is not my business to criticise employment and jobs — since we need all the job creation we can get — if overemployment leads to inefficiency and that contributes to the collapse of the industry, it is doing no one a favour to be inefficient in terms of production and job numbers generally.

What can the banks do now? I am not so sure they are going to do a lot. Senator Dardis referred to the possibility of interbank warfare. Is there the possibility that the banks which were caught in the Goodman affair are now leaving the banks who escaped out to dry? That possibility must be investigated and, if well founded, cannot be tolerated. More likely, as the banks now effectively own the Goodman empire, the Goodman enterprise generally and are depending on profits generated by the Goodman enterprise for their repayments. They were quite happy to let UMP, the second largest producer, hang out to dry. Why would it be in the banks' interest to subsidise UMP when their main interest lies in ensuring the best possible profits for the Goodman enterprise which they effectively own? That question needs to be answered and I hope the Minister will answer it when replying to the debate.

There is another problem which arises directly from the collapse of UMP and which is an indication of the problems we may face in the future. I think Senator Brendan Ryan referred to this point in the Order of Business this morning. I am referring to the apparent inability of the Government, in this small country to have even minimal convergence or cohesion; in other words, to ensure that people in the west have the same standard of living as people on the east coast. I should point out that there are problems in the east coast also. The Government need to ensure that the opportunities available to people living in the west are the same as those available to people living on the east coast.

If, to use Eurospeak, convergence and cohesion mean nothing in Ireland at present how can we have confidence in a greater Europe, where there is monetary and political union, to look after a small region like Ireland? It is proper to use the analogy that the west is to Ireland what Ireland will be to Europe post-Maastricht. If we cannot get our act right and cannot reduce the disparity in the economic and social conditions generally between various regions of our country how can Europe reduce the disparity between Ireland as a small region and Europe as a whole? That is one of the main questions which will need an immediate answer as we face a referendum on the Maastricht Treaty. It will be up to us as parliamentarians to sell the Maastricht Treaty. I will be looking for a yes vote but at the same time I want to be able to answer that question which will be put by people that have real concerns about the Maastricht Treaty.

Senator Dardis referred to the increasing difficulties involved in operating as an honest and ethical producer and processor in the meat industry. If producers and processors break and bend rules there is no doubt that they will have a competitive advantage whether it is in the livestock market where people who use illegal hormones can get a higher price for their fat cattle or the marketplace where they can get a higher price for their produce. When one considers the contribution our grass based beef industry makes to both our level of GNP, agricultural exports and employment, one can see that it is still our major industry. If we cannot get our act right and ensure that those who operate by the rules are rewarded we are heading nowhere and all our talk about the importance of the agri-food business and the future of value added produce in terms of farm gate production will be nothing more than glib talk.

I ask the Minister of State when he is replying to say precisely how and when those who have incurred debts, and who are now creditors, during the period the Examiner was in place will be paid. Can the Government give an assurance that all farmers who supplied stock during the time the Examiner was in place will be paid in full and swiftly? In view of the income crisis in farming generally, no farmer whether he is on the east or west coast, can do without these large sums of money which are merely turnover for them. We are not even talking about profit; we are talking about money farmers need to enable them buy stock for the grass season. When will those farmers who supplied stock in good faith under the Companies Act which we rushed through because of the Goodman crisis be paid? How much money is involved? Is it £2.35 million or £6.5 million? How much is involved in terms of payments certified by the Examiner but not yet paid? If there is no confidence in the procedures we have put in place, for example, the recent companies legislation and the appointment of an Examiner, in future we will not get the cooperation we need to use an examination or to give a US comparison, section 11 type procedure.

We are awaiting urgent action and intervention by the Government. We are waiting for evidence of the Government's commitment to saving as many jobs as possible in the UMP plants. I should also like the Minister to give an indication that those who operate by the rules in the meat trade, be they producers or processors, will win out and that those who break the rules will not continue to have a competitive advantage.

I wish my colleague, Deputy John Browne well in his new office. I welcome him to the House. I did not know he had a particular interest in agriculture but with his ability I am sure it will be no length before he is on top of his portfolio. I await his response with interest.

As the debate has centred around the west it is time it came back somewhat to the south-east. I congratulate the Minister of State at the Department of Agriculture and Food, Deputy John Browne on his appointment. I hope he will remain a Minister for many years to come. He is most welcome to the House. He has had connections with farmers and with agriculture generally over the years. When one considers the county he represents one realises he could not have have an interest in such matters. County Wexford has always been regarded as the model county and I am sure much of this has rubbed off on the Minister. I am delighted he is present in the House today to answer our questions. I hope he takes on board some of the comments made by us which may help to resolve this problem which will prove disastrous for the country if it is not addressed in the very near future.

I am amazed at how we have reached the stage where 60 per cent of our meat industry is in severe trouble or, as Senator Finneran said, under investigation. It is unbelievable that this could happen in an industry which, as Senator Doyle and other speakers have said, should be growing at this stage. The dairy industry does not seem to be experiencing severe problems. The question of added value has never been properly addressed. In addition to addressing the problem in UMP the issue of added value must be put very high on the Minister's agenda.

Reference has been made to intervention. I know that intervention has been used as a soft option by many meat processors. I agree that we should try to move into the value added area in order to reduce our dependence on that soft option. However, it is good that we had the option of intervention over the years; otherwise, we would have been very badly caught.

We have a very high level of unemployment. At a recent meeting of Wexford County Council I made the point that even if we could hold on to the jobs we have at present we would be doing reasonably well. We are not sure how many jobs will be lost as a result of the closure of the UMP plants; all sorts of figures have been bandied about. I ask the Minister to tell us the precise number of jobs involved. Is it 900 or 600? How many casual and part-time jobs are involved? The Minister for Agriculture and Food gave a set of figures last week. Last night we heard figures issued by the Receiver and we are still not sure of the situation. It is vital for the Minister of State — or the Minister for Agriculture and Food if he comes into the House — to tell us the exact position. I would also like to know the position regarding indebtedness. Is it £60 million or more? We were led to believe earlier that it was £4 million, then it was £40 million and we are still not sure. I am asking the Minister to clear up those questions because without full knowledge of the exact situation we can hardly address the problem.

Will the Minister state the value of the assets? Again, figures have been bandied about and we do not seem to have a definite figure. As I indicated, this whole debate appears to centre around the west. The people in the west should be complimented on their lobbying ability as they seem to have captured the media attention. I wish them well but I was a bit surprised that my colleague, Senator Doyle, fell into the trap laid by those on the western seaboard. Senator Doyle is now beginning to admit — I should not say "admit" because it is not true — accept——

Senator Doyle is not here to defend herself.

I am sure my remarks will be conveyed to her. I am not saying anything offensive. She was caught in a trap in which she would not normally be caught in her acceptance that the south-east is not as badly off as I know it to be. Wexford has the second highest unemployment rate in the country. When I said this last week many Senators said it could not be true. It is a fact of life that County Wexford has the second highest unemployment rate in the country, second only to Donegal. With many smallholders on the unemployment register the figures could mean that Wexford has the highest unemployment level. This problem must be taken on board. It has been suggested that our emigration rate is not as high in Wexford or the southeast as it is in the west. The level of emigration from Wexford is pretty high. I have two daughters in England and I know that is the case with many of my fellow parishioners and countymen.

Economically the southeast is in a very bad way. The economic health of a county or an area is usually judged on the level of unemployment. If that is the case there has to be a concentration of effort not alone in the west — and I hope there is in the west — but also in Wexford. I am sure the people of Cork can speak for Charleville.

It has been suggested here today that the Camolin plant in Wexford can be sold off relatively easily because it is, as one of my colleagues said, a state of the art plant. If it was so easy to sell off Camolin Wexford would not be in its present difficulties in regard to unemployment. There is nothing easy — and I say this particularly to the Minister — about the sale of any plant. It is to our advantage that it is a very modern plant but I would hate to think because it is modern, and sited in Wexford, that we forget about Wexford, move west and put a heavy concentration there. Nothing is easy.

I am asking the Minister for a commitment that an even-handed approach be adopted to the resolution of the problem countrywide. There are 80 people working in Camolin, 50 full-time and 30 casually. It is very hard to quantify the number of people who lost jobs in the services industry. People without a job today may be looked after reasonably well in the immediate future from the point of view of redundancy, holiday money, unemployment benefit and some may be on a three day week but that is in the very short term. Those people have mortgages and need security. They do not want their homelife or lifestyles affected and they want to provide an education for their children which they could not afford on social welfare.

That problem and difficulty exists in Wexford just as much as in any other part of the country. The people without jobs are anxious to know the position. Last week we were told that we seemed to be on the road to recovery. This week redundancy is being offered to everybody. What is the position? At this hour surely to goodness the people and workers are entitled to know? It is not good enough to have said one thing last week and a different thing this week. That is causing confusion, frustration, suspicion and a lack of trust, something we can ill afford.

I would like to refer to the many farmers who are owned money. Indeed in some quarters farmers are being blamed for the factories continued closure because they will not supply cattle or sheep. I know of one farmer in Wexford who got a cheque for £23,000 which bounced. From that £23,000 he owes stores, co-operatives, fertiliser companies and veterinary surgeons and he would have had to live on the remainder for the rest of the year. At this stage he is not sure of the situation. I ask the Minister to give me an idea or to give that farmer some assurance that he can in the coming year live in the style to which he has become accustomed and that he will be paid what he is due.

Farmers in Wexford, like farmers in the rest of the country, had their fingers burned before, with Clover Meats and other companies and they do not intend to let it happen again. I fully support the farmers in not supplying cattle or sheep to the plants without receiving an assurance that money will be paid upfront, not a cheque but cash. When the farmers refused to supply cattle to the factories there was an immediate retort from SIPTU. I was not disappointed with SIPTU or with the farmers but disappointed that the farmers and workers had not been brought together to explain the situation in relation to where the farmers stood and why they could not supply plants in present circumstances. If they had been brought together at that stage it would have resolved that problem. We do not want an argument — or worse — between farmers and workers, all of whom are in this together.

Another problem that confronts farmers is that many of them have cattle and sheep ready for slaughter. Now that some 60 per cent of slaughter facilities have been taken out of the system — even if the rest work to capacity — farmers will not be able to have their sheep or cattle slaughtered. As they have nowhere to sell, this means, of course, that they must hold on to the cattle and sheep. That causes three problems for the farmer: the animals will eat into fodder that he had not budgeted for in the first instance, be it the remainder of his winter feed or grass. Luckily we have had a reasonable winter so there is probably a little more fodder about than would normally be the case. Nevertheless some farmers are caught, but they face the uncertainty, and it is unknown how long those resources will be eaten into, literally eaten into.

Secondly we have a grading problem. It is well known that the Camolin plant, indeed the other plants west of the Shannon, and Charleville, had found tremendous markets. Camolin has tremendous sheep meat markets on the Continent, in France particularly. The supermarkets are not going to wait until we solve our problems in order to get sheep meat. At this stage there is a real prospect of losing the markets that were built up slowly and solidly. It is a matter of great concern that the cattle and sheep will be fattened to a degree that they will go out of the grade necessary to qualify for such markets. I think it brings it home firmly that we must address the problem immediately. The factories must be opened as soon as possible. This whole problem, of course, upsets the farming agenda for the year. The cattle will have to be fed and this takes from the other work that the farmer had budgeted for.

I will refer very briefly to a group who seem to have been forgotten in all of this — the hauliers. They, like farmers and workers, have not been paid what was due to them, and that should be taken on board also. I will say no more about the hauliers at this stage.

May I repeat, now that the Minister is here, that there seems to be an enormous change from last week when I was lead to believe in this House that things were far different from what I heard the receiver say last night. This disturbs me because as yet I am not convinced that we have the whole truth. If a day's work has to be done today, the Minister should tell us the situation as it is. I do not want to hear these great promises of the factories reopening. I want to hear an outline of the situation as it is. I do not want any false promises, because farmers, workers, hauliers and even ourselves will not fatten on that. We have got to hear it as it is.

I would remark on the silence of the Minister for Industry and Commerce in this instance and I am asking the Minister for Agriculture and Food this evening to liaise immediately with that other Minister because it seems that this Minister is carrying the can on the jobs issue. The Minister will have the support of this House in asking Deputy O'Malley, wherever he is, to help out in this crisis. The IDA have given us what I would regard — and the civil servants present will have to forgive me — as a Civil Service answer: "Yes, they are keeping a watching brief, yet they are going to do what they can". I want to see the colour of their money. I think the Minister for Industry and Commerce should tell us precisely what he is going to say to the IDA.

I mentioned the banks last week and again yesterday. I am very concerned about the role of the banks in our economy, but that is a debate for another day. However, what they have done to date is an absolute disgrace — they seem to be running and hiding.

Finally may I ask the receiver to tell the farmers if they are going to be paid — I sincerely hope that is the case — and when exactly they will be paid. I think it is absolutely essential for the farmers to know that so that they can supply the factories in confidence.

A Leas-Chathaoirleach, as I said last week, and this is a week later unfortunately, the most important thing is to re-open the doors of those plants so that we can continue to supply our markets. I want the Minister to tell us the truth of the whole matter.

I am glad to have the opportunity to contribute to this debate. Although I am, by fact and conviction a city dweller, I do not think it is impertinent for me to speak on the matter before the House at the moment. I say this for a number of reasons, the principal one of which is that this is a matter of grave national importance, a view on which there seems to be unanimity in the House. It is not just the immediate problem of jobs though everybody feels very strongly about that aspect and has compassion for people both in the farming industry, and involved in other associated areas of activity. In this context I was very glad that Senator Byrne mentioned the haulage industry. There are many people that I am aware of throughout the country who are affected by what has happened in the case in question who are financially over extended and who may have considerable difficulty in having the cheques honoured and moneys owed to them paid. I simply do not think it satisfactory that people should be left as the Senator said, "hung out to dry in this manner".

However, I see this whole problem as a national problem. I say that because of its importance but I would not want it to be though that I agreed with some of the previous speakers who have indicated that they feel there is a special problem of deprivation in certain areas of the country that is not reflected in the city. I just say that as a kind of a prior warning because I live in the north inner city of Dublin in an electoral area for Dublin Corporation in which there are levels if unemployment reaching up to 80 per cent so I can say that, although I have a position of privilege myself as a Member of this House and as a member of the staff of Dublin University, I live in an area of deprivation that is at least equal to anything that the rest of the country experiences. I do not say that with any pleasure. I hope that we can look forward with confidence to a time when there will be much fuller employment. However, that is a national matter. Now one must address the immediate consequences of the present tragic situation.

I have listened with great interest to people who spoke with considerable knowledge and expertise about the impact on the farming community in the immediate aftermath of the collapse of UMP but I think there is another and broader canvas that needs to be addressed and that is what I hope to do here today. I refer to the question of the lamentable failure of the beef industry over a number of years to be properly prepared, sophisticated and geared to the situations in the international marketplace of the late 20th century. The meat industry, and particularly the beef industry, have always seemed to me to go for the easy options of intervention and of selling into unpredictable and unstable markets. I can point to the record of this House as to when, for example, export credit guarantees were given in respect of exports to places like Iraq and Lybia. I suggested, that on political grounds, that was an inappropriate move but I said also at that time and, I retain that conviction, that it was a mistake in business terms to attempt to develop markets which were so internationally unstable. I believe our principal markets should be Great Britain and Europe, and we are in an extremely good position, if we take certain steps, to exploit that particular market. I have to say also that it is quite extraordinary that over the last short while we have seen the collapse of virtually the entire beef industry in this country; first of all the troubled Goodman company and now, secondly, Halal or UMP.

This illustrates to me the significant dangers of concentrating this very important national resource in the hands of what, if not a monopoly, is certainly a dangerously oligarchical situation and I do not think that is appropriate. We now have the consequence, and one could reasonably say that with the collapse of these two principal elements in the beef industry there has been a complementary collapse in the cattle trade. I understand from a contact in the midlands, for example, that if farmers are lucky enough to be able to sell cattle, they are getting a level of 80p per pound, whereas in order to survive economically and in order to make some small profit they need a rate of about 105 or 110 pence.

That indicates, in my opinion, the disastrous situation facing farmers if they are actually seeking markets into which they can sell their product at a loss. My heart goes out to them because farming is a difficult, unpredictable way of earning a living and this places particularly small and medium size farmers in a very difficult situation. What a tragedy because I was brought up in a country where there were all kinds of expressions like "beef to the heel, like a Mullingar heifer", where we were proud and we knew we had a quality product. This is something I want to return to, because there has been an absolute failure, due to the laziness, the greed, the inertia and the tendency to always go for the easy option, to capitalise on the native excellence of our product and establish it as a kind of brand image abroad, particularly within the European Community and the United Kingdom market especially.

I say this because it is obvious that what the beef industry have been doing is commodity marketing; they have not really been looking, in any serious way, for added value in the product as it leaves this country by developing specialised markets, frozen meats, establishing a brand image. It is perfectly clear that we can do this in this country. We have an excellent standard bearer in products like Kerrygold. Everybody in Europe knows Kerrygold; they are even selling millions of pounds worth of cheese to Greece which has its own indigenous, very well thought of cheese industry. I know this because I gave a lecture on James Joyce, Homer and the idea of epic, and the entire conference in Athens and in this land of Carpathos was sponsored by Kerrygold. I discovered that they were actually selling an enormous amount of cheese to the Greeks, which is like selling ice cream to Eskimos or coals to Newcastle.

I did not intend to waffle here today because I think it is an abuse of the Seanad if people who do not know something about a subject get up and simply, in order to fill up a quota, start to speak. I am aware that people with far greater expertise than I have have already contributed but they have principally addressed the immediate problem which they, as representatives mainly from the countryside, feel a special and valid need to address.

Something that, I think perhaps, has not been averted to, certainly at any great length, as I have been listening on the monitors, is a very significant report which is now 15 years old but the main theoretical outline of that report remains, in my opinion, still very relevant today. We have a copy in the Oireachtas Library and may I take this opportunity of complimenting the Library staff for the way in which they immediately are able to find even an obscure report when somebody like myself rushes in at the last minute and seeks it. They are extremely efficient and helpful in providing us with the instruments to perform our parliamentary function.

The report I refer to is interesting because there has been some criticism of the banks, as one might have come to expect in this House as a result, if I may say, of the O'Keeffe initiative, as it has been named and I would certainly be happy to join in many of the criticisms of the banks in certain respects. However, I would like to put on the record of the House the fact that as far back as 1977, the Bank of Ireland commissioned a report from McKinsey and Company called A Marketing Opportunity for Agricultural Products and it is one which I certainly recommend the Minister to reexamine — because I am sure it has already been examined. It seems to me that the theoretical basis for using this reverse as an opportunity to restructure the beef industry is contained in this report. If I may show my schoolboy French there is a French proverb reculer pour mieux sauter— you take a little step back in order to get a good jump forward: this is not a little step back — it would be trivialising and minimalising it to suggest that it is — but it is an opportunity to take stock of the beef industry and have a look at it.

I would like to refer to some of the comments made in this excellent report. The summary starts off by referring to the land as one of Ireland's primary national resources, and I think that we all, whether we are city dwellers or whether we are fortunate enough to live in the countryside, would agree that this is certainly the case. We have the essential capacity in terms of raw materials and a natural environment to produce products of excellent quality, but that is not enough. I would also have to say that in recent years, lamentably, this has been damaged by the use of angel dust and so on and by the unfortunate, inaccurate publicity surrounding things like mad cow disease which our vulnerable markets in the Middle East, for example, are very quick to capitalise upon. However, in dealing with the livestock sector, this report makes a number of important points and the first one is the requirement to improve the credibility of Irish meat products overseas. This should be a prime target now of the Government because there is no question of doubt whatever that in international terms, Irish agricultural products and particularly beef have suffered from lack of credibility because of the dangerous economic base — which was exposed in both Goodman and Halal UMP and also by the unwise policies of a very small minority of farmers in employing stimulants such as angel dust. What we have to look at is not just the situation of farmers on the ground but our capacity as a sophisticated society to create wealth from the products of the farm. This can be done by adopting a sophisticated and a properly applied marketing approach. This report refers in a very logical step-by-step way to the sequences that are necessary and I would like if I may to put some of these on the record of the House.

First of all, they identify market opportunities that contain the potential for stable long term growth and in which the enterprise or country has some distinct competitive advantage and, they have a rather interesting appendix dealing with how you actually identify the market opportunities and so on. May I say here again they talk about stable long term growth; what observer of the international political scene could possibly describe Iran, Iraq or Libya as markets having the capacity for stable long-term growth? Further on in the report they talk about cultural affinities. I do not know that there are that many cultural affinities, certainly not of the kind I would welcome, between this country and Iraq, Iran or Libya.

The report refers to taking whatever steps are necessary to consolidate the competitive advantage, for example, developing new products, establishing a brand image in the marketplace, building a direct presence overseas. Has this been done? No, it most definitely has not. Again I draw the attention of the House to the parallel I instanced with Kerrygold where in the dairy area we have successfully done this but in meat produce we have not. We see in Irish supermarkets Danish bacon, New Zealand ham, all this kind of stuff, but in Europe when you buy excellent Irish beef, you just buy beef: there is nothing to say, this is Irish, from the Emerald Isle, from the land which is unpolluted — which is a byword for excellence and a clean environment.

Their third point was that the Government and the industry must be prepared to commit the long term resources required to achieve success, involving not only marketing investment but also the capacity to sustain losses during an extended build-up period. Here both huge meat combines found themselves exposed because of various financial fluctuations. In the case of Goodman, the principal catalyst appears to have been unwise adventurism on the British stock market which, in my opinion, is completely inexcusable. The situation in regard to UMP is a little more confused.

Again, in talking about the need to identify markets, this report went on to say that additional wealth can be created, first, by finding stable consumer markets — they again come back to the idea of stable consumer markets which can be developed long term — for the increased levels of farm output predicted; second, by establishing a premium position for Irish products in overseas markets and, thereby, adding more value in Ireland and, finally, by exploiting opportunities for new product development by extending the range of products available in the market or developing by-product applications of existing processes.

In order to establish this pattern of growth, they went into some detail in a later chapter indicating precisely how they feel this capacity for growth can be generated and then sustained. For example, they indicate the proximity of the United Kingdom market and look at the particular preferences of that market. Again this is another thing that I do not think, very significantly, has been done. We have not actually identified the consumer preferences in the different markets into which we sell. They say that in the United Kingdom, for example, the market for frozen meat products had, in 1977, grown by 30 per cent in real terms over the previous five years and the delicatessen market by 90 per cent. Processed products increased their share of the total meat market from 22 per cent in 1970 to 25 per cent in 1975 and, they said in 1977 — they turned out to be right — that they were likely to continue to do so. They point out that these opportunities are potentially very attractive to Ireland and that packed and processed products command a higher added-value than the carcase product even though profits do not always increase proportionately.

They also examine — I find this very interesting — the different regional variations in taste. This is something they explore in terms of what quality actually means because quality is, after all, a function of perception. If a housewife goes into a supermarket she perceives as quality what she wants to buy. If the predominant taste in a particular regional area is for streaky bacon, then somebody going into a supermarket looking for quality will be looking for streaky bacon. However, if their notion of quality is lean meat, lean rashers and so on, they will be looking for lean rashers and that is what will indicate quality. There are significant regional variations which can be established so we can procure specific markets for specific elements and byproducts of the meat processing industry.

They amplify this point as follows:

The housewife in London, for example, likes well covered beef with a higher proportion of fat than does her counterpart in northern England or most continental countries and is prepared to pay accordingly. The purpose of controlling quality, therefore, is not only to ensure that all production meets minimum quality standards, although that is important, but also to provide an effective way of meeting consumer preferences and of obtaining the price premium that follows from doing this successfully.

They speak of meeting consumer quality requirements; God knows the image of Irish beef has taken one blazes of a dent with the revelations that have come out of Goodman about bad meat being sent back and recycled, relabelled and so on. It is a horror story in which the greatest marketing skills of the agricultural and meat processing agencies and the Government will have to bring to bear in order to counter the negative impact.

One way in which this can be done — as suggested here — is by the introduction of a proper classification scheme for meat products. Even back in 1977 they were saying that the beef sector was one area which principally needs this and this can be done. Every carcase can be given a descriptive class on a dead weight basis and the price paid to the producer reflects this kind of quality grading. In addition, if this becomes fully effective and operative, then there can be a feedback into the farmers' network so that they will be advised as to the kinds of meat it is most economically appropriate for them to engage in producing.

I would like to end with two points. I know this report is out of date by 15 years, but, as I said to the Minister, I believe the theoretical approach contained in it provides the framework for a move forward in this tragically troubled industry. My final word is one of real sympathy to the farmers of this country, in particular to the workers in the beef processing plants and their families because it is a tragedy to see on television night after night during the past week people who have opted to stay here and to be part of an ever dwindling workforce in the rural community and who now appear to be cruelly, by an accident of economic circumstances beyond their control, on the point of being deprived of this possibility of staying in their own country. I wish the Minister well in whatever he can do to rescue this lamentable situation.

First, I wish to congratulate the Minister, Deputy Walsh, on his elevation to the portfolio of Agriculture and Food. While the events of the past few weeks will test his mettle I know he is well-liked in agricultural circles and, as a graduate of UCC, is held in very high esteem in the dairy science faculty and in the agri-business in general. I wish him luck.

It is somewhat ironic at a time when they should have been celebrating St. Patrick's Day the clouds of despair were gathering in the skies of Connacht and the hopes of the people of the west were dashed. Little did they realise that both yesterday and today they would have to queue for their redundancy forms. Their expressions of hope were dashed and changed to expressions of deep despair. It is clear from the television coverage and newspaper photographs that they are a traumatised people. Once again, people in the west — an area which has received much attention during the past few months — are faced with the spectre of unemployment. Indeed, the bishops and many other bodies have come together to try to save it.

UMP's debts total £60 million, and their assets meet less than one-third of this. Despite the early optimism of the Receiver he had no option but to serve redundancy notices when he discovered just how serious the difficulties facing UMP were. There is a long trail of debts owed to farmers — these are very important suppliers, the Revenue Commissioners and the banks. According to some sources the assets of the company including stock, plant and money owed to them amount to less than £20 million.

Even though he was in close contact with the Receiver, there appeared to be a difference of opinion because the Minister, when he appeared on "Today Tonight", seemed to be optimistic and assured us that the factories would reopen and that creditors would be paid. However we then received a shock to the system. All hope was dashed by the drastic announcement yesterday. Farmers who genuinely believed in the negotiations throughout the early weeks of March are bitterly disappointed. They believed the receiver when he said he was considering a set of proposals put to him by the farmers' organisations and that he would be meeting with representatives from foreign and Irish banks. That gave a ray of hope and, therefore, the announcement adds to the trauma of the affair. Now that Senator Costello has come into the House I would ask that I be allowed share my time with him.

Acting Chairman

Does the House agree that Senator Costello has nine minutes?

The Minister is to conclude at 3.45 p.m.

Acting Chairman

It is agreed that Senator Costello share nine minutes of Senator Jackman's time? Agreed.

Early in the month, the farming organisations welcomed the decision of the High Court to extend the period for the examiner to United Meat Packers to come up with a viability plan. They stressed the importance of the retention of the processing and market outlets for farmers, for the Irish meat industry and, of course, for the workers involved. They called on the Government to use every option open to them and to use their influence to secure that viability plan. At all times the necessity of having sufficient fund in the UMP bank accounts to meet all cheques issued to farmers for livestock was stressed. More than £2 million in cheques to farmers were guaranteed by the examiner, which we hope will be paid eventually, one must ask as to the position in respect of the debt of £1.5 million owed to farmers that is not guaranteed. The bleak financial position was outlined by the examiner last night, but will funds be available to pay these farmers? Will the new owners, if there are new owners, honour the debt? We know how firmly the IFA will stand as regards not supplying a plant where cheques are not honoured.

What about the future? There are enormous problems, as we know, in the meat industry. We have spoken about the banks on many occasions here in Seanad Éireann, but the banks are very cautious about lending money when loans are high in relation to assets. Capital is needed if the banks are to give support, and marketing expertise is needed also. There is little hope from the co-operatives. In the past we have always looked to Kerry Co-Op when problems arose, but they say they do not need more plants. Therefore, we are at a stage where most of our indigenous meat processing industry may end up in the hands of foreign companies. They will supply markets and we will supply the raw materials. It is very like the Third World economy where you supply the raw materials but you get little or no benefit from the final products. We must ask ourselves if we have really put the required moneys, effort, expertise and support behind the meat industry? As was stated yesterday and today, it is not just a question of the west being devastated, there is the threat in the mid-west that 2,000 jobs will be lost in Shannon loses its status. In that regard the mid-west is giving warnings in advance. Many warnings were given about the meat industry but they were not heeded.

I would like to refer to the Minister's area, Cork. We know that there will be extreme devastation in the west, but we should consider that the Charleville plant, which is modern and well equipped, has secured markets and deals with supermarkets in the UK and in many of the EC countries such as Belgium, the Netherlands, Luxembourg and even beyond the EC countries to Scandinavia and Israel. We say that we have the markets but we cannot supply them because we do not have the ready cash. We will lose the markets if the orders are not filled. In the Charleville industry there are 200 employees, which is quite a substantial number in a town where many jobs have been lost as a result of pruning in Golden Vale Co-op. The Charleville plant makes £60 million a year, 3,000 cattle are slaughtered there and wages of £2.8 million are paid. The plant gets good quality cattle from the surrounding counties of Limerick, Tipperary and Cork. Its closure would be a loss not just to the immediate industry but also to the shops, public houses and the haulage industry in the area, not to mention the 630 workers who would have to join the dole queue. Some of that workforce are skilled while some are low paid, semi-skilled people who would have little or no opportunity of securing employment.

I would ask, now that we are about to enter a united Europe, how we can possibly inspire confidence in ourselves, in a country which is primarily agriculture based, if we cannot make a success of our own industry? The meat industry has had a very high stamp of quality throughout the centuries. People were encouraged to eat beef and despite a scare about the use of Angel Dust and other illegal growth promoting substances we still project ourselves as a clean food economy that can sell Irish beef. These closures are very worrying for this country and immediate action is needed. The people of the west, from Donegal to Cork, feel that they are the forgotten people.

I would like to thank Senator Jackman for sharing her time with me and also welcome the Minister to the House. Last week has certainly been a very black one for the people of the west and of the south, too, particularly for farmers and those providing various services who depend for their income on the money that flowed from United Meat Packers. It could be said that it was the ides of March with a vengeance. Approximately 600 jobs in United Meat Packers, and practically the same number of part-time jobs have been lost. Yesterday 135 jobs were lost from Express Couriers. Dublin Cargo Handling are going into receivership with the expected loss of 220 jobs. The banks dispute has resulted in AIB closing their doors, with 884 employees being suspended. In the space of a couple of days the future of over 2,000 people has been threatened. The Government's response is to set up a jobs forum which, from all accounts, is to be a mere political talking shop. The Government have not yet agreed to allow the social partners or the unemployed to participate in the forum. If those who are directly involved are not allowed to participate, there cannot be a meaningful forum. I hope the Government will take on board the Labour Party proposals to allow a system to be set up so that all those directly interested are represented on the jobs forum.

The Government response in setting up an employment subsidy scheme to create 15,000 jobs, training schemes to create 10,000 jobs and the FÁS scheme to create jobs overseas will not deal with the whole problem of unemployment. The Minister for Finance in his Budget Statement indicated that he was making provision for 275,000 on the live register for 1992. Within two weeks of having made that decision the Minister found that the live register figure for unemployment was in excess of the target for the entire year. Quite clearly the Government do not have a clue in relation to planning to deal with unemployment. The corollary of that is that down the road much more has to be provided in social welfare.

In the context of the closure of United Meat Packers, unquestionably the management are to blame. They are at fault in allowing a debt of £60 million to have accumulated. High borrowings were made and, with assets of only £10 million to £20 million, there is a huge debt to be made up. It is incredible to consider the way such a debt could have been run up. The company did not have a great deal of competition; the Goodman Group were their only competitor in the beef and lamb sectors. With the best meats and the best indigenous products, the company nevertheless were allowed to run up a huge debt. It seems management were extremely inefficient. Inefficiency has been the record of virtually all agricultural operations — Clover Meats, Duffy's, Towey and the Goodman Group. The Government have been at fault——

(Interruptions.)

Is there any chance for me to get a hearing?

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

The House shall hear Senator Costello without interruption.

Say something substantial.

There would be no harm in the House debating the banks' position in order to determine what is happening there.

That is right.

The Government have also been at fault in that they have not insisted on proper standards in the agriculture industry. They have not ensured that the money received from the EC gets to the farmers — we are informed that only about 15 per cent of the money gets to the production level, this country has not come to terms with dealing with the problem of angel dust; and the Exchequer and the taxpayer have incurred an enormous cost because the country has been unable to deal with the problem of tuberculosis in the meat industry. The Government have to get their act together.

The Examiner was successful in his attempts to deal with the Goodman affair. Indeed, the Companies Act, — which could be called the "Larry Goodman Act"— which introduced powers for an examiner, does not appear to have worked in this instance. In the case of the Goodman group, the Government used pressure to ensure that the banks got together and made money available. In the present instance, there seems to have been no pressure exercised on the banks; the Irish banks in particular simply walked away and refused to co-operate. Now, with the receiver in place, the jobs are gone — as we all knew they would be, despite the promises made — the factories will be sold, even though we were told that they would continue to operate; it appears creditors will not be paid, and farmers, quite rightly, are up in arms because they are not being paid and the cheques they received have bounced; even cheques issued when the Examiner was in place are bouncing.

I agree with the Minister that the dairy industry and the co-ops have a good record and that co-operative involvement is the road to travel. In the dairy sector share involvement by local farmers and producers has proved successful. However, the onus is on the Government to bridge the gap between now — when the receivership is in place and jobs are jeopardy — and the time when it will be possible to set up business again. That time gap will be very short because there are only three or four weeks to go until the sheep killing season opens. Unless that short time gap is breached we face the prospect of those sheep not being killed. Government involvement is the only positive way to ensure there is no breakdown in the operation of the plants and that the assets will not be sold off. If the assets were sold, it would be impossible for the plants to get back into production. My view is that if the Government do not intervene so much of the plant will be sold off and so many assets will be stripped that it will be very difficult to get the show back on the road.

In the long term the Government must intervene on behalf of the agriculture industry. Ireland must produce a quality product it can stand over. Ireland is the garden of Europe, and must be maintained as such. The monopoly in the meat and the agriculture industries must come to an end, and farmers must have share equity so that they can participate to the full in the industry. Legislation must be introduced to ensure that standards are met. The agri-business must be built up, markets and processing must be exploited to the full, both here and abroad, and we must not rely on the EC intervention system.

There is a community at risk. We have all heard the story about the death of a town because nobody cried "Stop"; in this instance we are facing the death of a community and nobody is crying "Stop". The Government have adopted a laissez faire attitude. Arigna has already been closed, and the whole area of north Mayo, Roscommon and Sligo will become a dead community. Those places are already peripheral, they have been neglected and they will now be devastated. The livelihood and the traditions of that area are greatly at risk.

I ask the Minister to ensure that the plans are not stripped and that the operation does not stop entirely. The Government must intervene to ensure continued operation in the interim. It is to be hoped that a co-operative system can be developed as the dairy sector has developed in order to establish a healthy agri-business. I hope the Government, with the assistance of the IDA, will intervene to ensure that jobs are not lost.

I welcome the Minister for Agriculture and Food to the House and congratulate him on his appointment. We in Cork are well aware of his capabilities and we are delighted he has been put at the helm of Agriculture and Food. His early days in the Agriculture portfolio have upheld something that we in Cork have known all along — that the Minister, Deputy Walsh, is a capable man who knows what he is about. We have every confidence in him.

It is important that several issues be thrown open in the debate today. Many people are worried about their jobs. I am aware of how the people feel who work in the Charleville area, and the farmers who have supplied the UMP plants.

Now that the Minister is in the Chamber, I should like to pose several questions to him. In the early days, we were told that 900 full-time jobs and 600 casual jobs were involved. Seven days later, we now find that the total number of full-time jobs is 630, inclusive of casual workers. How did someone in management get it so wrong that he or she could not add up the number employed by the company?

A week ago we were told that the financial shortfall was £4 million; today it is understood that the shortfall is £50 million. Over and above anything else, one has to ask where was the black hole in the management economy? I ask the Minister this afternoon how someone somewhere got things so wrong that he or she could say there was a shortfall of £4 million, and then point the finger at the banks and say £4 million was all that was needed to keep the company going, but, when the receiver is in place, it is found that the shortfall amounts to £50 million. I agree with Senator Costello that that surely begs the question that something was very wrong with management. I am glad Senator Raftery is in the House today. I salute him.

Seven days ago Senator Raftery said in the House that a receiver should be appointed. He realised that something was amiss and he said that a receiver should be appointed to hand over the organisation to people who would look after this indigenous industry, this industry that is so important to the economy of the country. The Senator also said he would take issue with some of his colleagues in this regard. Deputies Creed and Bradford are two of those colleagues and I accuse them of being involved in political gamesmanship without giving any cognisance whatever to the difficulties that had arisen within this industry or any to what the Minister was endeavouring to do or to what would be correct in the long term for our economy and agriculture, in particular the beef industry.

Another issue that has raised its head in this crisis is the role of the examiner. It had been my understanding that, when an examiner was appointed to a company, that company was deemed to be one that could continue to operate effectively, efficiently and profitably. It was also my understanding that, when an examiner was appointed within the jurisdiction of the High Court, people who traded with that company in goods or services during the period of that examinership were guaranteed payment for the goods and services they provided. I know many farmers operated on that basis in these circumstances, that was the advice given them.

A different scenario has now emerged. It appears now the receiver is saying to these people that of the £2 million or £1.5 million being spoken about, they may receive only 90 per cent. That places a question mark over the total viability of appointing an examiner over any company in the future. If an examiner is appointed within the jurisdiction of the High Court one would rightly have thought that in respect of any trading that took place at that juncture full recoupment would be made to those people who continued to trade. Otherwise, what is the point of putting in an examiner at all; one might as well appoint a receiver or liquidator from the very beginning? I suspect there is a deficiency in the provisions of the Companies Act in this regard. Perhaps the Minister would take up that single issue with his colleague, the Minister for Industry and Commerce, ensuring no repetition of what occurred in this case.

I have been seeking a debate on our banking system over the past 12 months.

However, on this occasion, I have to say I agree with the banks. It is important to emphasise what the Minister has been saying from the very beginning, that is, given a level playing pitch, the banks were prepared to put in money to ensure the continued viability of this industry. It is important to place that on record. While normally I would be one of the first to castigate the banks and their role, in this case, they have shown much good business acumen, that when £50 million seemed to be floating in the wind the banks said: Put it in the hands of reputable buyers and we will not be found wanting, which was what the Minister told us. In itself, it is important that that be emphasised.

We must remember that we are all in this together, that our economy cannot afford to lose 630 jobs. Therefore I would put this question to the IFA and to farmers today: do they think they are helping the provision, maintenance or continuance of these jobs by ensuring that no cattle or sheep are supplied in the intervening period, during which the receiver wants to keep the operation going? The receiver has given the commitment that he will meet the debts to the best of his ability in accordance with the funds available. Do Senators remember all the complaints voiced about a segment of this market, contending there was too much on one side and not sufficient on the other? The Minister is saying now to the IFA, farmers and people generally: let us come together; our co-operatives have given a lead and shown what they can do in the dairying sector; it is natural for them to become involved in the indigenous beef industry, so important to all our farmers.

I would say to them: have sense, take stock; ensure the continuance of the beef industry by affording the receiver a chance to sell on to co-operatives — I emphasise co-operatives controlled by the farmers themselves. Like the Minister, I exhort them to avail themselves of the opportunity now presented to them to become more involved, as they should, in the beef industry.

First, let me say I am pleased to be able to be in the House this afternoon to respond to this debate. I understand there was some debate on the Order of Business this morning when reference was made to the fact that I was not available. I was not available — I am sorry about that — but it was unfair to accuse me of not wishing to be available. The fact is that, in any debate in the Seanad, whenever within reach of the House, I have always been very pleased to attend, as I am now.

In relation to this crisis or problem, were there more level-headedness, just direct honesty about it, we would probably be much closer to its resolution. The facts themselves, are straightforward enough. A receiver was appointed to the company this day week. It gives me no great joy to be back in the House again today to give an update on what has happened in the interim. As the House will know, a receiver was appointed because an examiner who tried to run the company over the preceding few weeks found he was unable to continue the business as an ongoing concern. Initially he was informed that £2 million would be sufficient to get this company out of its impasse. In fact, as the House will recall, he raised £3 million but discovered that amount was not adequate. He sought another £4 million but before being in a position to avail of that sum, found from his further examination of the company's books that the £4 million would be inadequate. Therefore, he had no option but to go to the courts and say: look, the finances in this case are in a far more serious position than I had been led to believe; I am requesting that a receiver be appointed to the company.

The receiver was appointed this day week. Initially he felt his task was to provide a business plan within a few days, get the plant operational as ongoing concerns and sell them as quickly as possible to reputable companies. That was this day week. The receiver returned yesterday. Having had an opportunity of going through the books of this company he found, not alone was the £4 million inadequate, but that the difference between the total liabilities of the order of £60 million to £65 million and the assets, worth roughly in the order of £15 million, the black hole, or shortfall, was £50 million. Therefore, when the receiver thought, a week ago, he might have been able to get the plants up and running again within a week under receivership — a short term prospect at any rate — having had the opportunity of going through the books and accounts, he found an absolutely horrific picture when of necessity, his programme, had to be changed. Tomorrow the receiver will advertise the plants, as a group, or as individual plants, for sale. He has told me — because I have been speaking to him each day since this crisis began — he is very pleased with the level of interest he has found in the plants, in the group. He is confident that he can dispose of them to reputable companies in time for the main sheep and lamb kill which takes place mid-April. Essentially that is what we are talking about.

I did not have an opportunity of listening to all the contributions made today. However, I listened to the contribution made by Senator Norris in which he referred to, I think, the Coopers and Lybrand report of 15 or 16 years ago. As he rightly said, this impasse and difficulty is only another symptom of how bad things really are in the beef industry. I was in the House last Thursday when Senator Raftery spoke. It would be worth anyone's while reading what he said then. This problem is only one symptom. We all know about Clover Meats, Horgan Meats, the Goodman Group and Towey Meats — there has been a litany of them over the past ten years. As Senator Raftery said, this industry is so accident prone it is more an accident than an industry. Despite the best efforts of various Governments and administrations and the Industrial Development Authority over the past ten or 12 years there is no structure or proper basis for the industry. We are now worse off than we were ten years ago.

It is a shame, a tragedy and a sin that eight out of every ten high quality steaks produced here go into intervention stores. I am talking about the highest quality meat from cattle which are fed outdoors on grass. This is one of the products we boast about, yet we are not in a position to sell it to premium markets. We are making money for the cold store operators and the processors. This would not be too bad if the processors stuck to the business of meat. However, they involve themselves in businesses outside the beef industry. When they run into trouble, unfortunately the farmers and the small family businesses who supply various goods and services to these plants are left high and dry, penniless and with dishonoured cheques.

This is not an isolated incident. I have asked a senior member of my Department to look at the possibility of introducing a bonding arrangement. A similar problem arose a few years ago in the building industry where estates were left unfinished — there were no footpaths, no services, no sewerage system, no lighting, etc. This was real disaster for the young married couples involved. However, it was sorted out very quickly by way of a bonding arrangement. We do not have that problem any more. A few years ago people who had booked holidays with travel agents were left high and dry — after their money has been paid the travel agents concerned went bust. A bonding system was also introduced on that occasion to sort out the problem. Perhaps farm leaders and farm organisations could look at the possibility of introducing such a system, too. I am going to look at this possibility to see if it would prevent this aspect of the problem recurring.

In the long term we need to ensure that the beef industry has a sound basis and structure. This has been done for other parts of the food industry and I think Senator Raftery — I am giving him a lot of praise — and his faculty are responsible in a major way for this. Since the foundation of the State the faculty of dairy science in UCC has been producing first class graduates——

First class professors.

——who have mainly gone into the food business. An odd one of them has strayed into other areas.

Mentioning no names.

See how far astray he has gone.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

The Minister without interruption, please.

The Avonmore, Kerry, Waterford and Dairygold Co-ops are doing a superb job. I do not know of any dairy co-op which has defaulted on their suppliers. As well as having a credible and professional management they also have a quality system in place. Anyone who consumes dairy products can be confident about the quality of the product. That is more than can be said for certain meat products. This is unfortunate and it is no joy for me to have to say it. However, we may as well be honest about the matter. It is easy to understand why sales of red meat are declining — some of these products may not always be 100 per cent red meat.

This comes down to the nub of the problem, that is that quality systems at management and product level within the meat industry are not up to international standards. The sooner this is put right the better. When I attended the Spring Show in Dublin about three years ago I was asked if I had anything to say about the agricultural industry. I said I was very concerned about the state of the beef industry and, in particular, the quality control arrangements. I also said it was tragic that not one meat plant in the country was up to international standards. I am glad to be able to say that about a week ago Tara Meats qualified for the ISO 9000 classification. They are an example for the rest of the country to follow. If the quality of our beef is not up to international standards, we will not be able to compete successfully. Some people seem to think that they can sit back and expect European and Irish taxpayers to dispose of their high quality products by putting them into large trucks and dumping them in a cold store. From time to time we have run out of cold storage space here. Even Irish cold storage operators have not benefited from this practice and sometimes we have had to store meat in ships off our shore. On other occassions our beef and other high quality products have had to be kept in stores in the Netherlands, rather than having to sell them off for half nothing to the first people who would buy them. Those are the underlying problems in the beef industry.

The UMP problem gives us an opportunity to provide a broader base for this industry. All of us are concerned about the closure of UMP and what this means for the workers and their families. I have been criticised as a Cork person for being specific about the west. The reality is that the plants are a shambles and it will be difficult to get reputable buyers to take over and operate the plants. I have spoken to people in co-ops, the food business and the IDA and I can say quite straightforwardly that the IDA will sit down with any company who wish to acquire a plant, a number of plants or the company and point out that the plants have to be upgraded and modernised and state of the are equipment and facilities installed.

The closure of UMP will be tragic for the workforce and farmers. However, distorting the scale of the problem, putting forward simplistic solutions, blaming the Minister, blaming the Dáil, blaming the banks and asking taxpayers to put their hands in their pockets and shell out money to sort out this problem in the short term, is not the answer. The major task now is to sell the plants either as a group or individually to reputable buyers and have the plants operational as soon as possible. I have been assured by the Receiver, and I have to accept his assurance — I cannot get a better assurance from anyone because he is the person in UMP going through the books and he has the most comprehensive information available — that he has received numberous queries from reputable people in relation to acquiring these plants and they they will be disposed of very quickly so that the sheep and lamb kill particularly can be accommodated in the middle of next month.

In relation to farmers and small creditors, the Receiver has assured me that farmers — they are owed between £2 million and £2.5 million — will be paid in full. Having looked at the books he has assured me that they will be paid and, of course, they are entitled to be paid. He will pay the farmers and the other small creditors because, as other people have commented here, the truck drivers and the people who supply the various services, were entitled to be paid while the Examiner was in business and they will be paid when the Receiver realises the assets which is expected to be in the next few weeks. He cannot just take money from the sky, he will sell the plants and the assets. I have been told that there is only £2 million in stock there. There are some bits and pieces from debtors but at any rate there is more than an adequate amount there to pay the small creditors in full and it will take a few weeks. I put it to him that there are farmers and small creditors who are in serious financial difficulty as a result of this matter. He said the best he could do for any individual in serious financial trouble as a result of this collapse was to go to the banks to see if he could get immediate payment.

The Receiver came back to me and said that the best arrangement he could make for anybody who wanted immediate cash was to get it at a discount of roughly about 5 per cent, in other words they would get 95 per cent of what they were due immediately. The Receiver said they do not have to take 5 per cent less than they are entitled to; it is just an option for them. We are talking here about salvaging and rescuing, a fire brigade job, in the short term but in the long term we are talking about doing a much more comprehensive job. I have given the story from the very first day it landed in my lap; I could have done without it. I have honestly stated the position in so far as I know it and brought all the resources of Government Departments and State agencies to bear to find a solution to the problem.

I am confident now, having discussed this matter with the Receiver in the past 12 hours, the Industrial Development Authority in the past couple of hours and with numerous people involved, because I want to find a solution to it, that new owners will be found for these plants, that the jobs and the workforce will be put on a secure and sound footing, and, importantly, that the beef industry will be put on a far more secure footing for the future. If I was not aware of that every report would confirm it. Senator Norris referred to the Coopers and Lybrand report, but we have had a plethora of reports, sectoral, departmental and consultancy reports, each one of them telling different Governments what should be done about the beef industry. They all, of course, pointed in the same direction and I hope we will now go in that direction.

I do not intend going into any specific allegations. All I can say is that this company were first put under the care of an examiner, as in the case of Goodman, under the same legislation. There was no pressure in the case of Goodman. In the case of Goodman about 17 banks were involved, most of them foreign. The Irish banks — whatever we say about them — are fairly shrewd people and although £550 million was owed in the case of Goodman the Irish banks scaled down their exposure, so it was a different story. The banks were all in it together, they had a vested interest in saving their own skins. It could be argued — and I know it was — that it might not be in the best interest of the farming community because they of course have to get back their £550 million and that cannot come from anywhere except the farmers' pockets. In this case there was one major banking group, BNP; the Irish banks again saw the writing on the wall and scaled down their involvement. Indeed, they were hardly involved at all. Their attitude was, if BNP, as a serious banking organisation, facilitated the mess that was going on in UMP to the tune of a black hole of £50 million, it was their job as a commercial organisation to make a wise investment. Why should the Irish taxpayer be asked to dig into his pocket and put in £50 million? I would not ask them to do so and I do not think anybody with any shred of credibility should do that.

Surely the banks own Goodman now so it is not in their interest to subsidise UMP?

The Irish banks would hardly be foolish enough to go in as a mess had been made of this by BNP who had risked to too great an extent. Why should the Irish banks then go in and bail them out? They shied away from it. They did state categorically, and gave an assurance to the Minister for Finance, Deputy Bertie Ahern, last week, that on the appointment of the receiver they would put up money for cashflow and would put up the money in the event of new credible investors becoming available. When the receiver was appointed this major liability was put to one side, taken out of the equation and he started with a clean sheet. That money from the banks is still available to new companies or individuals. I certainly do not want to see this happening again and I will do everything I possibly can do to prevent it.

The recent Culliton report said we have to put the beef industry in particular on a sound footing and I hope I will contribute to that. In the short term I hope UMP will be put into the hands of reputable companies. I asked farm leaders to call on their members who, in the main, run our better co-operatives and are on the boards of management to try to ensure that farmers get control of the beef industry as is the case in the dairy industry. Why should we let outsiders or anybody else default on payments and renége on the responsibility for marketing beef? I call on the IFA leaders in particular to do that again. It is very simplistic and easy to criticise everybody in sight. It will be more constructive if they said to their members that this is a golden opportunity to get back in the beef business. They were in it at one stage and controlled their own destiny. There were many cases of co-operatives investing outside Ireland, in the UK, continental Europe, and the United States of America. They have raised substantial funds to do that and I am delighted they are doing it.

One weak area of the food business is left virtually outside farmer control. I know Kerry are involved in it but I should like the Avonmores, the Waterfords, the Dairy Golds and the Golden Vales to become involved. I know if they do there will be a secure future for jobs, for the industry and, most of all, for the marketing of quality products. I am sure if that happens not alone will we sort out this problem, we will put in place a future for the entire Irish beef industry.

I thank the Minister and join previous speakers in wishing him good luck in his new appointment. When is it proposed that the House should sit again?

At 2.30 p.m. on Wednesday next.

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