Skip to main content
Normal View

Seanad Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 10 Jun 1992

Vol. 133 No. 4

Electoral (No. 2) Bill, 1991: Committee Stage (Resumed).

Debate resumed on amendment No. 61:
In page 39, subsection (5), line 10, after "Non-Party" to insert "or ‘Independent'".
—(Senator Hederman.)
Amendment put.
The Committee divided: Tá, 13; Níl, 20.

  • Costello, Joe.
  • Hederman, Carmencita.
  • Hourigan, Richard V.
  • Howard, Michael.
  • McDonald, Charlie.
  • McMahon, Larry.
  • Manning, Maurice.
  • Murphy, John A.
  • Neville, Daniel.
  • O'Reilly, Joe.
  • Raftery, Tom.
  • Staunton, Myles.
  • Upton, Pat.

Níl

  • Bohan, Eddie.
  • Byrne, Hugh.
  • Conroy, Richard.
  • Doherty, Sean.
  • Finneran, Michael.
  • Fitzgerald, Tom.
  • Lydon, Don.
  • McGowan, Paddy.
  • McKenna, Tony.
  • Mooney, Paschal.
  • Foley, Denis.
  • Haughey, Seán F.
  • Hussey, Thomas.
  • Kiely, Dan.
  • Kiely, Rory.
  • Lanigan, Michael.
  • Mullooly, Brian.
  • O'Keeffe, Batt.
  • Ryan, Eoin David.
  • Wright, G.V.
Tellers: Tá, Senators Hederman and Upton; Níl, Senators E. Ryan and Fitzgerald.
Amendment declared lost.
Section 46 agreed to.
SECTION 47.

I move amendment No. 62:

In page 39, subsection (1), line 28, after "officer" to insert "a petition of nomination signed by one thousand electors, or".

This amendment seeks to allow people to be nominated for election by means of having their nomination paper signed by 1,000 electors. Earlier in this debate the Minister has from time to time drawn attention to the practices which exist in other European countries, in support of both the arguments he has made in favour of retaining parts of the Bill and those which he has used by way of opposition to amendments.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

Excuse me, Senator. May I point out that amendments Nos. 62, 63, 64 and 65 are related and all may be discussed together.

That opens up the discussion quite significantly. As I was saying, the Minister in the course of his interventions in the debate has made reference to practices in other European countries. I would like to do so in support of amendment No. 62. According to information supplied to the House of Commons in 1985, Belgium, Denmark, West Germany and Italy do not require candidates to lodge a deposit but instead they can support and validate their nominations by means of a signature system requiring up to 700 electors to support their candidature. We are proposing that, if 1,000 electors sign a nomination in support of a candidate, that should be sufficient. Alternatively, in amendment No. 63, we are suggesting that the nomination deposit of £500, which has to be lodged, should be reduced to £100. We have put in a provision whereby if people who are unemployed want to contest an election, the deposit should be waived entirely in their case. In addition we are proposing that subsection (2) should be deleted to maintain consistency. We are also opposed to the section.

There are a number of aspects to the business of people being required to make deposits. I have in front of me an article written by Richard Humphreys in which he cites the opinion of the late Professor John Kelly in his book on the Constitution. In the course of that opinion Professor Kelly argued that it may be unconstitutional to require someone to lodge a deposit in support of their nomination. It may be in conflict with the Constitution and essentially invalid. There has also been a judgment from Mr. Justice O'Higgins in 1984 which again seems to suggest that it might be unconstitutional to require candidates to lodge a deposit in support of their nomination in order that it may be validated. When the Constitution, in article 16.7, states that elections "shall be regulated in accordance with law" what is involved, according to the late Professor Kelly, is the matter of elections, not the matter of somebody's candidature for that election. This is a very important opinion. It is the opinion of a very distinguished constitutional lawyer. There appears to have been some support for that opinion expressed by Mr. Justice O'Higgins in this case in 1984.

In conflict with those opinions, first, is the question of having to deposit even £100, which is relatively small. Raising that deposit to £500 is a very significant burden for many candidates in elections. It is also consistent with the thinking processes and the behaviour of persons such as Mrs. Thatcher, who in the course of her administration in Britain introduced similar provisions in the Representation of The People Act, 1985, where the deposit was increased from £150, a level which was set in 1918, to £500. I just wonder if the old Thatcherite virus has blown across the Irish Sea and infected the body politic on this side of the water. No doubt it has. I am wondering if the extent of the infection is so great that it has reduced the Government to direct transcription almost, a sort of a cloning of Thatcherite thinking. There are, of course, lots of other exhibitions of Thatcherite thinking in the country, but that is a somewhat distasteful example of it.

Some of the major political parties have loads of money — some of which has been subscribed by these people who have now taken to unburdening their souls, in relation to their subscription patterns, at the Beef Tribunal. Certainly, £75,000 would supply the deposits for an awful lot of candidates. It would not be a burden to parties that can get that type of money through——

About 150 at current rates.

They can lose their deposits as well.

Acting Chairman

Senator Upton, without interruption, please.

Perhaps that level of subscription, would be a kind of speculation to see how much would be retained, as a kind of inverted form of the lottery, seeing how much you lose in deposits.

For small parties and for Independents who would like to contest elections on separate issues, or indeed who would find the cost of contesting elections a considerable burden anyway, the fact that they must put at risk an additional £500 is a very serious burden. It is a very serious burden on people who would probably have a reasonable chance of losing their deposit. That certainly would discourage quite a number of people from smaller parties from going forward to contest elections. It will certainly be another imposition on Independents who do not have a political organisation behind them and, indeed, for the most part, do not have access to significant funds. Accordingly, the fact that they will have to put £500 down as a deposit will certainly discourage them from standing and presenting their case to the public.

I hope the Minister will be prepared to accept some of these amendments. There is considerable doubt as to whether the provision that my deposit should be required to be lodged is in accord with the Constitution. There are two opinions which clearly suggest that that may not be the case. There is no point in risking somebody taking a constitutional action and the whole process being turned on its head.

I hope we will not find the Minister as intransigent in his opposition to this amendment as we did to the last one, which I greatly regret. Here we have another serious and quite fundamental attack on both Independents and members of the smaller parties who want to go forward for election. There are a substantial number of points to be made, some of which have been made by Senator Upton, but the others I hope to cover in my contribution. One of the things which strikes me is that the Minister is always happy, and has been happy this morning, to quote for us what happened back in 1920 or 1963 or whenever. It has all been grand from that date to this, and therefore we should take that as a very good reason for continuing things as they are.

The Minister in his statement when he came into the House indicated that the deposit was set at £100 right back in 1923. I would like to give the Minister some of his own arguments and say, well, if it was grand in 1923 why not just leave well enough alone. It should not be changed. In this one, of course, the Minister switches his argument and very conveniently says, no, it has been at that level since 1923 but now we are going to change it, because it will suit his purposes and that of his party.

The value of money has changed, but a great many other factors have changed also. This is what we should bear in mind. This morning the Minister seemed to be totally frozen in 1923, or whenever the first legislation was brought in. I do not believe that in those days the three line whip worked in the way it works now or that there was the very substantial lack of accountability which operates now, when in many instances politicians in those parties can get out of their commitments by just saying, there is a three line whip and that is that. Also, what has changed dramatically is the extent to which party politicians have taken over control of everything in this country, from the Presidency to the Dáil, to the Seanad, to the local councils of every kind. It is a part of their all pervasive presence. They have infiltrated everywhere, even down into residents' associations and community groups, which were a marvellous manifestation at one stage of a new flowering. They, of course, in turn were taken over, because the political parties thought they had power in them. I remember when we were discussing Second Stage that a Member on the Opposition benches said that only party candidates should stand. It is not a big step from that to saying that only candidates from one party should stand, as happened not too long ago in the USSR and other places.

The Minister is introducing another anti-democratic measure in what he is proposing here. I have said consistently, since I started to speak on this Bill, that democracy should encourage people to go forward and stand. If we believe in democracy we should not try to push them to the side or make it difficult for them. Sad to say, from what I have heard this morning I do not believe that those who brought in this Bill really want or believe in true democracy. There is nothing more anti-democratic than to jack up the deposit to £500, which is undoubtedly a large sum of money for a lot of people. As Senator Upton said, it may only be a drop in the ocean to a major political party who are able to get funds from all over the place, because they have very slick party machines to gather in money at a great rate, but I am telling the Minister it is a great deal of money to people who would have every right to stand. Democracy should encourage people to stand and then let the electorate decide. This morning we saw the position with regard to the prisons. Even if declared elected, prisoners cannot become Members of the Dáil. It is up to the electorate to decide.

I would like to give an example from my recent experience. Sadhbh O'Neill stood for the Green Party in Dublin City Council. She is a student. She never knocked at one door. She did nothing that the normal politician might be expected to do when they go around canvassing. People said it was very irresponsible of this girl to go forward and then to go swanning off to America. In fact, she went off to America to do a course on environmental matters, and more power to her. But what happened to her? When she was away in America, never having knocked at a door, she was elected to Dublin City Council. I am quite satisfied that she would have been a typical example of what the Minister and those who designed this Bill had in mind. She would have been considered a frivolous or vexatious candidate. That is what people called her. They did not like it one bit when they saw that she got elected. Of course, 20 years ago most people did not know the meaning of the word "ecology". Times move on. Everybody seems to move on, except the Minister and those who have compiled this Bill. They want a situation where they can make it difficult for people to stand for election. I bitterly regret that and resent it.

Political commentators and others are amazed that there is such a low poll in many elections. Is it all that surprising? There are only uninspiring, boring candidates, who are all a long time in the political party. If an election was livened up a little bit by new fresh candidates it would be better. I am not saying that they are going to be anyway flippant, but there is nothing wrong with adding a little colour to an election rather than having it dull, bring and colourless. I do not equate that with seriousness. This is a most regrettable development. If the Minister wants a deterrent, he is not going to deter crackpots by this measure. By this measure the Minister is deterring poor crackpots, but he is not deterring wealthy crackpots. They can just as well go. This is all a matter of whether one is wealthy or poor. That is the Minister's idea. He talks about freezing out frivolous candidates. Who is the Minister or anybody in this room or in this Chamber or the other Chamber to decide what is a frivolous or a vexatious candidate? I have given an example already of Sadhbh O'Neill.

The Minister says that the purpose of a general election is to determine the Government which the country will have for the next five years. I accept that. It is also important that we elect people who are going to form the Opposition. I do not see that everybody in the Opposition has to be from one of the big, powerful parties, or to be someone who has a lot of money behind him. People excluded by this measure might become very good and worthwhile members of the Opposition. Nobody should be deterred from standing because of money. The Minister and those who drew up his Bill know very well that there is a change. We have seen a change, both at the last local elections and elsewhere. We saw people like the Roscommon Hospital candidate and the Cavan Potholers candidates. These people run and may be elected out of a deep frustration. They have no other way of expressing their views or of having their wishes brought to the attention of the powerful and those who are in a position to do something about them. There will be more and more of them. That is why the Minister wants to bring in this undemocratic measure. He knows that they are coming; he can see it. He wants to try to do what he can to make sure that it is as difficult as possible for them.

I would be very interested to hear the Minister's reply to the suggestion made by the Labour-Party that we should have one thousand signatures. Why does he not think that is an adequate method? It should be obligatory to pay £500 or get the 1,000 signatures. That is a very good amendment. When I was looking for a nomination to run for the Presidency — I make no bones about it, I am not ashamed about it, I feel it is my entitlement as a citizen of Ireland to seek a nomination to stand for the Presidency — I was not able to get a nomination. There are not 20 non-party Members of the Houses of the Oireachtas. The Progressive Democrats — I hope they will be here to support this amendment — put a recommendation into one of their Programmes for Government that for the Presidency it should be possible to get 20,000 signatures. I got 20,000 signatures but I still did not get a nomination. If they suggest that a candidate can go forward for the Presidency with 20,000 signatures I do not see why, on a matter of principle, they would not support this amendment where we are looking for only 1,000 signatures. I do not mind if it is 2,000 signatures.

Those are the main points. I hope the next step will not be that, having introduced £500 to determine frivolous or vexatious candidates, the Minister will start introducing a £100 deposit fee for the electoral franchise to deter frivolous or vexatious voters. I know that sounds ridiculous now, but what the Minister is proposing is, in my view, equally ridiculous and unacceptable.

I support the points made against the proposed increase in the deposit fee. The Government would be well advised in the first instance to consider whether the proposed increase is not unconstitutional. In fact, as Richard Humphreys suggests in his article in The Irish Times, to which Senator Upton referred, we must consider whether the idea of a deposit is not in itself unconstitutional. Article 16 of the Constitution guarantees the right of citizens to stand for election. It says nothing about their property qualifications or what they have in the bank and that is essentially what it is. It is a residual link between property and franchise. There is still a lingering attempt to suggest that one is not entirely respectable unless one can cough up a few quid in support of that electoral ambition.

It was the Minister who, on another section of this Bill, objected to the amendment extending the franchise to emigrants. I made a substantial contribution against the idea of votes for emigrants as a result of which, I am informed, I am being lambasted all over the United States. It was the Minister who added the most fundamental reason to my arguments, namely, that the proposal might well be unconstitutional.

I suggest that the idea of a deposit might well be unconstitutional as Richard Humphreys argued in that article. As Senator Hederman said, who is the Minister — and I do not mean this in a personal sense — to decide on or talk about frivolous candidates? There is a high quota of frivolous candidates in both Houses who are not short of a few bob, but that did not deter them from getting there. I, like Senator Hederman, think democracy is large and tolerant enough to wear the idea of frivolous candidates who manage to get through the system. If there is a Monster Raving Loony Party it adds colour without threatening the fabric of democracy. Mr. Humphreys in his article pointed out that in the change in Britain in this regard, which we have slavishly imitated as the late John Kelly would remind us, there has been a real prospect of a threat from the National Front and a resurgence of racism, but there is no evidence that there is any threat of that kind here. There would seem to be no reason to back up this claim to discourage frivolous candidates, which was suggested in the memorandum. It is partly the idea that there is a link between respectability and a few pound. It is partly a kind of patronising supercilious, po-faced attitude which makes us all wear collars and ties and think people who do not do so are slightly suspect. I am giving a point there to Senator Brendan Ryan.

This idea that frivolous candidates should be discouraged is a paternalistic and snobbish attitude. I rather like the frivolous candidates. I was in Canada when there was an election. There was a party there which greatly added to the colour and liveliness of the occasion by having policies such as "Slowing the arms race to a Walk" and proposing to "paint the three mile limit with the national colours so that the fish would know to stay inside" and so on. This does no harm to anybody. It is not a serious threat to democracy. I distrust the supervisory, paternalistic mentality behind this proposal.

I think it is a cynical and cruel exercise to promote joke candidates. Such a candidate can be pushed forward by people in a cynical spirit, perhaps to win a bet or simply to have a bit of fun at the expense of some poor person who is not intellectually equipped to know what is going on. There is no question of money there or of raising the deposit. The Minister knows what I am talking about here. If there had been a greatly increased deposit in a local election in a certain southern city about seven years ago, it would not have discouraged the running of a certain candidate, whose canditature in my view was a cruel and cynical exercise. Raising the deposit will not stop that kind of thing. We have to accept again that this is part of the electoral procedure and democracy.

This is heavyweight stuff. This is using a steamroller to crush nuts — I am not unintentionally punning. As for the stated intent behind the provision, namely, that frivolous candidates will confuse the electorate, we have more paternalism here. The electorate must not be confused at any cost because, of course, they have a limited capacity to think for themselves, and we know better, do we not? This is the old mentality again. The kind of mind behind this section would prefer that there was no electorate and that the job could be done without them. As some academics say "would the university not be a great place if there were no students?" I imagine there are certain politicians and public servants who would say: "would there not be a great Ireland, if we had no people and no electorate?"

I appeal to the Minister to listen to us on this point to respond in the same generous spirit which the Government have already shown in section 167, dealing with opinon polls, which, it has acknowledged was arguably unconstitutional and could not stand up against the rational arguments made against it. I appeal to the Minister to listen to these points.

There is a very genuine point which has already been made. Unlikely as it seems to people who have money in their pockets, there are people who might have legitimate political ambitions but who could not find the £500. Whether the whole concept of a deposit is unconstitutional is debatable and, proposing to increase it five-fold is essentially antidemocratic.

The arguments put forward to date by my colleagues Senator Upton, Senator Murphy and Senator Hederman have been substantial. I would like to add a few points to what has already been said. The Minister, as indicated in the explanatory memorandum, is increasing the deposit to discourage frivolous candidates whose intervention might cause confusion to electors, and to ensure that each candidate is genuinely seeking election. The present figure of £100, fixed in 1923, is no longer an effective deterrent. What the legislation is doing is to link the old, hoary idea of franchise with property and money.

Progress has been made over the years to break that link. In fact, the greatest progress to the extension of democracy was to limit the link of the property owner and the business person. In the old days a person could not become a candidate for Parliament unless he was able to maintain himself. As late as 1923 the legislation required a candidate to put down a deposit of £100, a very large deposit. At the time, almost 70 years ago, there still were the remnants of the old era which still made, psychologically in the mind of our legislators, the inevitable link, or the necessary link as it was, which had not been broken between property and the franchise. We should distance ourselves from that link. I hope we are concerned about ensuring that the franchise is as open as possible and available to every citizen without favour and without a property or financial qualification. Increasing the existing financial qualification five fold is a deliberate attempt to establish finance as the criterion and could deter somebody from going forward as a candidate.

The Minister is talking about this provision deterring frivolous candidates. What is a frivolous candidate? The frivolous candidate is presumed, by implication, to be a poor person. He can be deterred by a financial obstacle. There can be a rich frivolous candidate who will not be deterred by a financial obstacle of £500. This would discriminate. Part of the restrictive element running through this legislation indicates that finance is something that is there to protect the franchise. An obstacle is put in to keep undesirable elements out of the scenario. All it does is discriminate against the poor and those who cannot participate fully because of the money. In 1923 £100 was a large sum of money. We have not fully broken the link of property as a qualification for the exercise of franchise. I had hoped that we had totally broken with it, but this legislation indicates otherwise.

I would agree with the sentiments expressed in that fine article by Richard Humphreys, the lecturer in University College, Dublin, when he saw the origins of this coming from the Representation of the People Act, 1985, in Britain, where the 1918 figure was increased from £150 to £500 — exactly similar to what is here. As has been pointed out already, there were certain reasons which were well grounded on that occasion. Britain has had a development in recent years which we have not had. The ordinary man in the street there could say that there has been a range of relatively frivolous candidates coming forward. Whether or not that is desirable is another matter. Candidates who are going forward, like the Raving Loony Party could be described as not being there for serious reasons, though that depends on one's opinion. They were addressing that.

Secondly, they were trying to address the fact that there was a swing towards fascism and that certain candidates were presenting racist scenarios. Their provision was to deter candidates of this nature.

In our case we have had a history of very responsible candidates, who have been generally single issue candidates and who have gone forward in this country because certain issues have developed from time to time. An example of that is the present Independent TD, Deputy Tom Foxe, who went forward in Roscommon in the last election as a hospital candidate. There have been pothole candidates, who have been referred to already, haemophiliac candidates and the Army wives' candidates, where the women put themselves forward as Army candidates because their menfolk were soldiers and were debarred from standing. We have a good history of candidates who are not in any way frivolous going forward on single issues. What we are trying to do here is to introduce a solution to a non-existent problem. That has come up again and again in this legislation. We are introducing responses to issues which have not arisen. I do not see why we should go down that road. I do not think that the Minister can give any valid reason why it is desirable to bring into operation a response to something that has not emerged as a problem. If it did, the Minister could introduce an amendment to deal with the situation.

We are putting forward an alternative in the amendment. We are saying that the Minister should go ahead with the provision for a £500 deposit, but allow a reasonable alternative for those who may not have financial means. The suggestion that a certain number of signatures of electors be obtained is a reasonable suggestion and is eminently practicable. It is in operation in quite a number of European countries at present. I do not know what is going to happen after the Maastricht Treaty but we have ratified the Single European Act and it now governs our activities. We have participated in Europe and will continue to participate in Europe. This might be one area of integration we could pursue. Perhaps we would go along with our European colleagues — Belgium, Denmark, Germany and Italy — which have got, as an alternative means of nomination, a certain number of signatures. I understand it is only 700. They have larger electorates to deal with in a given constituency. Why not introduce an element of flexibility. It has been pointed out by almost all the contributors here today that the financial impediment operates in a discriminatory fashion against one sector of the population rather than against the other sector. Let us have an alternative for those other people who can demonstrate, by collecting 1,000 signatures, that they are not frivolous and are not vexatious.

In relation to amendment No. 63, there is a further proposal that we would reduce the amount to what existed in 1923. It has served us reasonably well for the last 70 years. I would like to hear the Minister give an example of how that £100 deposit has not served the function of deterring frivolous or vexatious candidates. Could the Minister give us a single example of one frivolous or vexatious candidate who has slipped through because there was only £100 as a financial deterrent?

In amendment No. 64, we propose that the deposit should be waived for unemployed candidates. Whatever about having a deposit of £500 for those who can clearly afford it, if a person is unemployed and wishes to stand for election, surely that must be a discriminatory obstacle in the way of that person going forward? On £55 unemployment benefit at the present time one would have to accumulate ten weeks' dole money to put down the deposit to stand for election to the Oireachtas. For that ten weeks one would have to exist on water, not even on bread and water. It seems reasonable that any candidate who is unemployed and who wishes to contest an election as his democratic right under the law and the Constitution should not be debarred by a very significant financial obstacle being placed in the way.

In amendment No. 65 we are asking that that section stipulting legal tender be deleted. The returning officer should have the option of deciding what he should he take. That is a totally unnecessary section. Whether it is our legal tender or some other legal tender, as long as the actual substance of the quantity of money is supplied that should be the determining factor. What happens if somebody comes along with an ECU after Maastricht? What is the legal tender then? Is it the Irish púnt? Is it sterling? Is it the currency of one of the member states? I would hate to say that it might be a Danish kroner but, if it is, will they not accept an ECU? We are going to be paid from Europe in ECUs. We are going to have a common currency, but what is the legal tender? It is wrong at this time to insist on or to specify that legal tender should be specified in the Bill with the ongoing situation in relation to European Union.

Finally, for me, the principle is that we should be endeavouring to extend the franchise and extend the opportunity of becoming Members of the Oireachtas to every citizen who is so qualified. We should seek to facilitate them by not putting any obstacles in their way. In that context, as has been referred to already, there is the possibiity of a constitutional questioning of this provision which might lead the Minister into trouble in the future. The Minister would be doing well to provide the alternative at this point — improve the situation, introduce flexibility and avoid having to appear in the courts and having the legislation overthrown because of this provision.

I want to make an observation on amendment No. 64, which seeks to add "provided that this deposit shall be waived for unemployed candidates". Do the Senators who put down this amendment consider that all outgoing TDs or Deputies, once a general election is called, are basically unemployed? If you read Deputy Nealon's book, most of the outgoing TDs are full time politicians. Does that mean outgoing TDs are considered unemployed and therefore do not have to pay a deposit?

I do not think it does. I may be wrong, but I have a feeling that the regulations were changed recently. I was under the impression that retiring or outgoing TDs continued to be paid for some time after they ceased to be TDs if they lost the election; I was under the impression that they continued to be paid during the period they are contesting the election. Of course, this is a matter for the Minister for Finance. It is encouraging and it may tell us all something about our own thinking process in regard to where we are hoping to go from here.

I have heard some of our colleagues in the other House talk in terms of there being arrangements made that if somebody loses their seat they get paid for either three months or six months afterwards. I was under the impression that the regulations have been changed to allow TDs to be paid while the Dáil is no longer in existence. It is something I am sure the Minister will be able to clarify for us. However, that is something of an aside.

I have great difficulty understanding the concerns which the Minister appears to have about the problems and difficulties which frivolous or vexatious candidates could give rise to. I do not dispute that there have been some frivolous candidates who went forward and constested elections. Some of them got nowhere politically and that was the end of them; some duly went to get elected. I do not honestly believe that it made much difference.

If we were to take the case that Senator Murphy talked about from the nameless city in the south of Ireland — and none of us would want to be too clued in to be able to fill in the missing bits — if we accept the general tone of what Senator Murphy was saying and if we accept the worst possible interpretation of what he was saying in terms of the candidature of the individual in question being frivolous and so on, I want to ask the question: did it make any difference to the proper functioning of the council to which that gentleman was duly elected? In my view, it did not. That southern city seems to trundle on its way and I do not think it has been seriously damaged at all.

I can tell the House of another candidate who, for many years, was a member of an urban district council. During election time, because the man was illiterate, one of the standard events of the campaign in a public house in the town where he was a member of the town council was getting this gentleman to tear down his own posters. The publican told him they were the posters of one of his opponents that he did not particularly like and he promptly proceeded to tear them down. The functioning of that town, and indeed the functioning of the town council, was not seriously damaged by the fact that that gentleman got elected and continued to be elected for quite a time.

Is the Senator putting this forward as a general argument?

No. What I am saying is that we should not get ourselves unduly worried about the occasional frivolous candidate who contests elections and about the occasional frivolous candidate who gets elected. I think the political and democratic process in this country is well able to take care of that. There are a certain number of people in this country who are prepared to indulge themselves and are quite happy to vote for what they know only too well to be frivolous candidates. As long as the frivolous candidates do not become a serious problem after they are elected. In many ways it provides for these people a way of expressing themselves. It provides them with a means of making a statement about the political process.

I do not have the slightest doubt that if you began to see significant numbers of frivolous candidates being elected, the public would run a mile from them and you would not be long seeing the whole system coming back into order.

It is for those reasons I think the Minister is worrying unduly. In many ways it might even lighten elections which can be very boring for the public from time to time. Certainly, they can be very trying for the candidates, with which is something we are all only too familiar. The odd bit of levity, the odd funny candidate, does not make any difference or damage the system. History in this country and in other countries shows that it has not made a significant impact on the political process or done any worthwhile damage.

Was there not a bicycle candidate in Dún Laoghaire not so long ago? Dún Laoghaire seems to me to have trundled along its merry way; it does not seem to have been seriously damaged. The candidate in question got a fairly significant vote and I do not think it did any harm. Most of his votes, in due course, transferred to other what one might describe as very sensible candidates of other parties. I know for certain that some of the people who voted for that gentleman did so in the certain knowledge that those votes would finish up with sensible candidates they felt they would like to have voted for anyway, but they were expressing themselves; they were using the system, and in some way they were also sending a certain message to the political system — in other words, they were prepared to go that far in an effort to make a political point. I think that in many ways we are worrying about nothing.

Section 47 restates the law which requires that a candidate at a Dáil election must lodge a deposit with his nomination. This provision has been part of the electoral law since 1923. The only change proposed by section 46 is that the deposit be increased from £100 to £500. The section, which is just eight lines long, has attracted five amendments.

Amendment No. 62 proposes to require, as an alternative to the deposit, a petition of nominations signed by 1,000 electors. While this suggestion may appear an attractive proposition it would be very difficult, if not impossible, to administer. I do not know how it would be possible for a returning officer to check the validity of such signatures. Even checking that each one of the alleged signatories was a registered elector would be a time consuming and painstaking task. It will be noted that the amendment does not require that they should be electors of the constituency concerned.

Senators should remember that the candidate at a Dáil election may submit his nomination paper to the returning officer right up to the time for the close of nominations. The returning officer must rule on the validity of a nomination paper within one hour of its delivery to him. Clearly, it would be quite impossible for the returning officer to verify the signatures in the time available. This would entail acceptance of the signatures at face value. Anybody can write 1,000 names on a piece of paper and this would render the whole exercise pointless. The requirement for a deposit at elections is a well established and accepted feature in the electoral system. It appears to be the simplest and most convenient method of establishing the bona fides of a candidate. The alternative proposed in the amendment is not really practicable or workable in our situation.

Amendment No. 63 proposes to reduce the deposit from £500, as proposed in the Bill, back to £100 — in other words, the amendment proposes to retain the status quo. The unnumbered amendment after amendment No. 65 opposes the section in its entirety. The effect of this would seem to be that there would be no test or requirement in relation to nominations. Amendment No. 64 proposes that the requirement for a deposit should be waived in the case of unemployed candidates. Requiring a deposit is an earnest of the serious intention of a candidate and is refunded if the candidate attracts a certain minimum of support. The minimum is being reduced from one-third to one-quarter of the quota in this Bill.

If any candidate, no matter what the circumstances — even a person who is out of work — is genuine and has serious policies and a significant level of support, he or she will have little difficulty in putting together a deposit of £500. I do not accept that making an exception for one category of potential candidate is warranted. There would be, of course, the administrative difficulties. What evidence of unemployment would a returning officer be required to or entitled to demand? How would the expression "unemployed candidate" be defined? Could an extremely wealthy person, who has no recognised occupation and is not employed, be described as unemployed? What about the spouse of a wealthy person who is not gainfully employed outside the home? How do we justify exclusion of persons who may be very poor but are not technically unemployed? Would the returning officer be required to apply a form of means test?

Amendment No. 65 proposes to delete subsection (2), which provides that the deposit at a Dáil election should be made by means of legal tender or, with the consent of the returning officer, in any other manner. Acceptance of this amendment could put the returning officer in a difficult position. He would probably be obliged to accept a deposit in whatever manner it was tendered, despite any doubts he may have about the value of a cheque proferred by a candidate. In practice, returning officers let it be known that they will accept only cash or a bank draft. In this way all candidates are treated equally and embarrassment is avoided in relation to the question of whether it would be prudent to accept a cheque in a particular case. The present arrangement is clear and fair. We should not put the returning officers in a position of having to inquire into the financial affairs of a candidate, or his proposer, and to make potentially embarrassing judgments in relation to them.

I do not think the Minister has allayed any of our concerns about this matter. He has sought to demonstrate the obstacles to providing alternatives. The simple fact is that there are alternatives in existence in other states and the approach we should have here is to try to facilitate the exercise of democracy to the greatest extent. He talked about the verification of signatures, that the time span would be a problem. It could be a matter of regulation that signatures would have to be available for a certain length of time to ensure that there would be time for checking them, if that was a problem but to simply rule out the possibility of signatures because he has certain reservations about them does not stand up, because it has been demonstated that signatures as an alternative to a financial deposit are feasible. This has worked and is operating in member states of the European Community and surely we can introduce something that has been tried elsewhere and found feasible. I would like the Minister to address that. To my mind, his objections are not sufficiently substantial to rule out the alternative we are proposing in amendment No. 62.

Regarding the unemployed, the Minister is not anxious to allow a consideration to be given to the unemployed on the grounds that it would be difficult to determine precisely who is and who is not unemployed. We have our own means of determining that. We see regularly on the newspapers the number of people who are unemployed according to the criteria established, which is the live register. Those people who are signing on are the major category who would be considered as people who are unemployed and are in receipt of social welfare for their livelihood. I think that would be a useful criterion to start with in this legislation.

In relation to the last point about the legal tender, surely the point should be to facilitate the candidates in as wide a fashion as possible? I do not consider it a major problem. If the £500, as it is in this case, or its equivalent in recognised financial currency, is available, it is not a difficult job for the returning officer to go out to the bank and check the rate. It could be done in the space of a few minutes. It is not something that is a major problem, so I do not regard it as a sustainable objection. It is something one could regard rather as a nuisance; it might put him to a bit of trouble. Nevertheless, it is not a sustainable objection and certainly not when we consider that borders are to be abolished. In County Louth along the Border with Northern Ireland money is pretty much interchangeable. Therefore, what is and what is not legal tender, particularly after the borders go in the context of European Union?

I would not disagree with any of the objections put forward by the Minister, but I would not say they are substantial objections to the procedure we are suggesting here to improve the representation of all sectors of the community irrespective of their financial standing. That is where the Minister has gone wrong. In this section he has discriminated against those who have no financial standing in the community in favour of those who have. It is simply a matter of not just of eliminating that but also providing an alternative for those people who are being discriminated against by this provision.

I have listened in great detail to the arguments presented by Senators Upton and Costello and I wonder if the two Senators are serious in some of the suggestions they put forward. It is very simple to put 1,000 names down on paper and submit them to the returning officer. I pointed out here on Second Stage that I remember in the 1969 election a candidate went to the wrong constituency to get nominated and, having been there, he then took a taxi to the constituency where he wanted to get nominated. He duly paid his £100 deposit, went home, end of story. He did not even vote on the day of the election, but he ended up with 600 votes at the end of the day. The only reason he put his name on the ballot paper was because he wanted to unseat his namesake, and he succeeded in doing that.

I said also on Second Stage that I thought the deposit of £500 should be increased. I believe that anybody who cannot get £500 is not a candidate who has a chance of getting elected to Dáil Éireann. We should be very serious about the issues involved here, and not alone the question of the deposit. Senator Fitzgerald made the point that technically all Members of the Dáil, once the election is called, are regarded as effectively unemployed under this section of the Bill. I do not think that is what anybody here has in mind. If any candidate putting himself forward for election to Dáil Éireann and having to launch a campaign for three to four weeks is not able to come up with £500 for the deposit I do not think he has much chance of getting elected. As far as I am concerned, to include those amendments would mean you could well have a situation where there would be a huge number of candidates in a general election and undoubtedly it would distract from the candidates who seriously contemplate election.

Senator Murphy referred earlier on to a situation which arose in a southern city, and I do not think any of us would like to see a repetition of that. Equally, I do not think that any of us would like to see a situation where people could just walk in off the street, give in their name and say "Right, I am standing in a general election" without the necessity to lodge a deposit. That would not be in the interest of democracy and I certainly understand the comments by the Minister when replying to those amendments.

We are almost an hour now on this amendment. There is a lot of repetition and I ask Senators to bear that in mind very seriously because we are not making the progress I think all of us would like to make.

To put your mind at rest, a Chathaoirligh, I think I speak for some of the Senators at least when I say that this and the previous amendment were among the most serious before us. I am not saying that some of the others are unimportant, but they are certainly less important than some of these. I find the contribution of Senator Naughten, when he said you are only reputable if you have money — and in essence that is what he said——

On a point of order, that was not what I said.

I would like to know what you did say, Senator Naughten.

Senator Hederman, you should address your comments to the Chair, please.

I beg your pardon. Senator Naughten made that clear that only reputable candidates should be allowed stand. I probably understand what Senator Naughten intends to say, but what is behind this Bill is far more serious and more sinister. What it is, in fact, is attempt after attempt to narrow it down and to make it more difficult. Earlier we had the question of the Non-Party designation and now we have another attempt here. Not only can people who are not in the major political parties call themselves Independent, but they also have to be well off and be able to produce the money.

I find the whole trend of this very disheartening, and the more I listen to the Minister and the reasons he is putting forward the more I am convinced that it is an erosion of our democracy. The Minister referred to the difficulty of verifying the 1,000 votes, but I am sure the Minister and his officials know that something like this is done in a great number of other countries. In a plebiscite they must have perhaps 10,000 votes. I know that in some countries 20,000 votes are needed — in Switzerland it is a huge number of votes. With modern technology it is quite simple, because the voters register is on computer and somebody only has to spend a short while checking them on a computer to see if they are on the register. Therefore, I do not think that argument will hold.

What I am concerned about is this notion that somebody other than the candidates and the electorate can decide. I got confused earlier when I was referring to it and I did not get a chance to say it here when the Minister came into the House at the beginning of the debate. Talking about swamping the ballot paper with the names of large numbers of irrelevant candidates is a most patronising attitude. I find it unbelievable and unspeakable that that could be actually written down. In my view, the only people who would get in any way confused are those voters who just go out and blindly accept that because they had good turns done for them they want to vote for the party. They do not know whom they want to vote for; they just want to vote for the party. That is the situation in which they could get confused and swamped by what are so disparagingly termed "irrelevant candidates".

Anybody who is going out to vote will have no difficulty. I resent the way the Irish electorate are constantly being denegrated. Our electorate are well able to discern the difference between the candidates they want to vote for and candidates who might not be serious. They do not need this Minister or any other Minister to start telling them who is a relevant candidate and who is serious about getting elected. The whole thing really stinks, as far as I am concerned.

I referred to Sadhbh O'Neill; whoever thought she would get elected? I dislike the whole idea of this business of "distracting from serious candidates." Who is a serious candidate? As I said earlier, it is only the people who are in major political parties who are serious candidates? I would like to hear from some of the people in the Opposition. Let us hear from them what they feel about these rather insulting remarks to the Irish electorate.

I very much agree with what Senator Hederman said about the Irish people and their capacity to indulge themselves in a little bit of frivolity from time to time by way of voting for frivolous candidates — but they have no problem at all in becoming quite serious when it suits them and indeed when they feel it is in their own best interest. Sometimes a little bit of frivolity does not do any harm.

Primarily, A Chathaoirligh, I rise to take up some of the points which were made by Senator Naughten, and in particular I want to take up the point he made in relation to unemployment. It is a clever point. It was well made by Senator Fitzgerald, who is a wise old Senator and is very well able to get in useful debating points, but it does not have any substance. To qualify to be unemployed in this country you have got to be available for work. Look at anyone who is contesting an election and the one thing that they are not is available for work. There is nothing worse than contesting elections in terms of the way it drains one's resources and so on. That point is completely irrelevant and has no substance.

In relation to Senator Naughten's concerns about obtaining the 1,000 signatures — letting people write down the same name 1,000 times or 1,000 different names once — I do not think that creates a problem that cannot be overcome. This system exists in other European countries and I can see no reason we would not be able to build in the same safeguards in this country that they have in other European countries. I do not believe the Irish people are any different in how they might abuse these matters compared with other European countries.

My final point relates to the £500 deposit, which Senator Naughten did not seem to think created any great difficulties. Again, I begin to wonder if people's perceptions and views of £500 deposits are not conditioned somewhat by the tendency of certain companies to give rather large donations which would certainly remove any worries that one would have about the problem of a £500 deposit.

In relation to candidates who are Independent, who belong to small parties, the reality is that for many of these candidates to get elected they have to contest elections over and over again. That is the route which many people who have made it into this House and the other House have followed. If people are going to be deterred from getting started into the whole business and process of politics by the size of the deposit which they will have to put at risk, well then I think that is not a good political, democratic process. I believe there are some people who would be prevented from ever making it to either this House or to the other House if that kind of money is required.

There were many very distinguished people in Irish politics who got derisory votes when they first put their names before the Irish people. While I am sure the £500 would not have been a problem to the former Taoiseach, Deputy Haughey, it is well for everyone to remember that when he first stood for election he got a very small vote, and look where he went from there. The last time he stood he got somewhere between two and three quotas. Certainly, the number of votes he got was rather enormous. It illustrates the point in relation to very many people who have had to start off on very small beginnings and in difficult circumstances. If one finds oneself in that kind of circumstance, then that type of money can be a disincentive and can be unsuitable and unhelpful to the democratic process.

The first element in this provision is that there is a presumption that abuse can only be deterred by a financial obstacle being put in the way. That is something that has to be eliminated from it. The next point is the provision of an alternative. There are two ways of going about it: either have a deposit as the deterrent in relation to frivolous and vexatious candidates, or have some other form. We are suggesting that the other form be a certain number of signatures. It would not have to be a great number of signatures. The Minister may come up with an alternative. We put forward our alternative on the basis that it is already in operation in other countries in Europe and in the world.

The Minister has to ensure that what he is doing is in accordance with the Constitution and that he is not debarring people on frivolous grounds, that he is not putting frivolous obstacles in their way. The Minister may find himself charged with using frivolous reasons to debar somebody from their entitlement to be a candidate.

I would also like to refer to an important point made by Senator Hederman. She said that when she looks at the whole tenor of the restrictions that have been imposed in this legislation so far, she sees something which is suspicious and alarming: the concept of restriction to "non-party", not being prepared to allow the term "Independents", which would be the normal nomenclature for people who are not members of a specific party. There is also the question of preventing candidates from going forward and the question of a deposit for an appeal. The direction this legislation is taking introduces sufficient restrictions to ensure that the Fianna Fáil Party get an overall majority. It is putting restrictions on existing categories of people — on students, for example. It would be a normal thing for students to register at home or at work. That has been limited, despite the Supreme Court decision on the matter. I do not like the direction in which these restrictions are going. There is something I cannot put my finger on, but it is certainly undesirable and antidemocratic.

Progress reported; Committee to sit again.
Top
Share