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Seanad Éireann debate -
Friday, 12 Jun 1992

Vol. 133 No. 6

Local Government (Planning and Development) Bill, 1991: Second Stage (Resumed).

Question again proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

The objective of this Bill, which is to shorten the planning process, is worthwhile. A great deal of controversy has attached to the planning process since it was introduced in 1963. On the one hand, we have the extreme and outrageous behaviour of some developers who seem to have no interest or concern for the welfare of the community or for the long term effects of the developments they engage in. They seem to be driven by an anxiety to maximise profit in the shortest time possible and ride roughshod over the concerns and welfare of communities. Some planning developments were appalling.

On the other hand we have a number of cranks who are usually opinionated and unconcerned about the impact of their actions which in some cases result in a great deal of hardship for developers with worthwhile developments. Some of these people adopt a stance of high moral superiority which I find difficult to take. The problem is trying to find a balance between the anxieties of cranks, the outrageous behaviour of some developers and the concerns for the welfare of the community. In recent times there have been considerable improvements in these regards.

As far as possible, planning problems should be resolved at local level and there is considerable scope for increasing the role of local public representatives in determining planning applications. Having said that, it would be essential to have the option of resorting to An Bord Pleanála in circumstances where matters could not be resolved locally. It is undesirable that people should view the planning process as one where virtually all cases are resolved by An Bord Pleanála. In many ways we refer an excessive number of cases to An Bord Pleanála and the problems and difficulties arising from that could be avoided if a greater effort were made at local level.

Broadly speaking, the concerns of the majority of local authority members are very much the concerns of the community and the experience of recent local elections leaves no local authority member under any illusion about what will happen to them if they do not have the welfare and concerns of the community as their number one priority. I do not think local authority members will behave in an irresponsible manner in relation to planning, at least in the short term.

For those reasons, I would like to see a greater role for local authorities in resolving planning problems, particularly in the case of small to medium sized planning applications. In the case of very large planning applications which would have an impact beyond immediate local communities, there are wider and broader concerns which would be important.

An Bord Pleanála's role should be emphasised but we have been a little too enthusiastic in resorting to the board when solutions could have been reached by people behaving in a sensible manner.

I am a little concerned about the rights of third parties in relation to appeals and so on as determined in this Bill. I believe there will be a restriction on the rights of third parties arising from the provisions of this Bill. In the first instance, the increase in the fee for lodging an appeal will have the effect of limiting the number of appeals made by third parties. In some instances that may be undesirable.

The extension of the period for appeals by third parties from three weeks to a month is welcome. However, the obligation placed on third parties to set out the grounds for an appeal in full within a month will place a great burden on those who make appeals in complex cases. It will also be a great burden for community associations, residents associations and so on which are voluntary organisations and do not have the back up of expert advice. In many ways they have to try to figure out the appeals process for themselves. The restriction on time will create considerable difficulties for them.

There are also difficulties arising from the manner in which planning lists are published. In Dublin it takes about a fortnight before the list of planning applications becomes available to residents associations and to members of the public, if they are interested in looking for it. That leaves a relatively short period in which to formulate and lodge an appeal. Where it is necessary to obtain environmental impact assessments considerable difficulty will be created by the need to lodge appeals within four months.

The transitional period of six months provided to An Bord Pleanála to make the necessary adjustments to introduce the new provisions in this Bill is welcome because it is a change from the old practice of making these transitions by means of ministerial order. At least we now know there is a six month period over which the change will take place. It is good and useful to have that spelt out. However, the statement in the explanatory memorandum states that the Bill will not entail any additional staffing or financial resources is a matter of some concern. If appeals are to be decided within four months of the submission of the appeal, that will be an added demand on staff and resources. I have difficulty understanding how the process will work given that no additional staff or resources will be provided.

Other matters of concern relate to the fact that there has been a reduction in the number of people employed by An Bord Pleanála. In the 1988-89 period there was a 20 per cent reduction in total staff numbers and a 50 per cent reduction in the number of planning inspectors employed by the board. In terms of staffing and resources there will be significant difficulties in processing applications under the provisions of this Bill.

There are other items in relation to obtaining information which are a matter of some concern to resident and community associations. These relate to the fact that most local authority offices are closed before or at 4 p.m. and that creates considerable difficulties for members of the public who want to obtain information. It means they must take an afternoon or morning off work and that is undesirable. I would like to see local authority planning offices a little more consumer friendly in relation to the times they are open so that the public can go in and look through files.

I also have great difficulty understanding why it is not possible for the public to copy some of these files. It is a pity and is undesirable. I also believe it is undesirable that in the case of some local authorities the public have to see files at a hatch. That creates discomfort and difficulty for people trying to figure out what is contained in files attached to planning applications. I hope the Minister will look at that and that some effort will be made to meet the public's concerns in relation to those items.

In an 1989 survey I understand that 44 per cent of planning applications were not carried out in uniformity with the planning permission as granted. Half of the applications which did not conform with planning regulations had significant deviations from what was contained in the planning permission. That is a very serious problem that needs to be addressed. I am sure every local authority member has had representations made to them in relation to planning developments which were in conflict with the terms of the permission given. It is very frustrating and annoying, both for public representatives and members of the public to find that the whole process seems to work at a snail's pace. It is very difficult to resolve some of these problems rapidly. There are all kinds of legal ploys in which people who break planning regulations can engage. They can appeal or look for deferrals. There is a whole series of options and alternatives open to them which, I must confess, I do not fully understand.

I have had a number of representations from members of the public who are exceptionally irritated and frustrated with ongoing planning problems. Among some members of the public there is a feeling of hopelessness in relation to some developments which are in clear conflict with planning regulations and there is no difficulty in getting an acknowledgement of that from the planning authorities. Yet, finding a solution to those problems seems to be impossible in some cases.

One particularly frustrating case has been going on for years. It is still the same old way, temporary planning permission is granted and then, lo and behold, the planning permission runs out, another application is lodged and it drags on and on. The people who live adjacent to the development are frustrated and annoyed.

There has been considerable concern over the years about the insertion of public notices in relation to planning applications. This is one area where Irish ingenuity has developed to its finest degree. People insert notices in obscure publications. I mean obscure in the sense of the area to which the planning application relates. People who in the past would appear to have no interest in or hardly any knowledge of the Irish language suddenly develop an enthusiasm for it and become so enthusiastic that they insert their planning application notice in the Irish language. I am all in favour of people who speak and like Irish having the opportunity to insert their planning application in Irish but one would wonder about some of the people who resort to the use of Irish for planning applications. It seems to be just another ploy to try to prevent people knowing what is intended to be done.

There is a certain merit in the suggestion that notices of application or planning permission should be displayed on the site at which the planning is proposed. That would be useful and it would also be desirable if certain guidelines were laid down in relation to how those notices should be formulated.

I welcome the general idea behind the Bill. It is useful that the planning process should be speeded up and streamlined but I am concerned that, in doing so, the rights of people to make third party appeals may be diminished. I accept that one must strike a balance in these cases but I am concerned that what is now being proposed may militate against allowing third parties to make appeals which give expression to legitimate and deeply-held concern in the community.

I welcome the Minister to the House and I also welcome this Bill. I hope it will have a speedy passage through this House and that in future planning permission will be granted to people and decisions will be made in a more speedy manner.

I agree with Senator Upton that people who apply for planning permission are greatly frustrated by the whole procedure. When I was a county councillor I hated to see someone coming to me with problems in relation to planning permission. After six or nine months or a year they would get planning permission anyway but not because of my representations or anything else.

A person came to me who had been refused planning permission to build five houses along a secondary road. I said it was the decision of the council but I would check it out. I went to the planning officer and asked how he could refuse planning permission in that case. He said the plans were drawn up incorrectly. I asked why he did not advise that person the day the plans were submitted. The planning authority would not agree to five separate exits from the five houses. They wanted one exit and one entrance with a roadway constructed inside the main road. Afterwards, plans were drawn up for seven houses in the same place and planning permission was granted. That case went on for about nine months. I could not see how a planning officer could justify turning down planning permission on the grounds that there were five exits or entrances from these five houses instead of telling the developer after a couple of days or a week that the plans would have to be altered to include one exit and one entrance. At that time inflation was high and the cost of building the seven houses that were eventually built would have easily increased in price by at least £3,000 to £4,000 per house.

When somebody applies to the local council for planning permission, the local authority have their map in black and white. In relation to areas for development, a planning application should be processed immediately. There are areas for limited development. Planning applications for such areas should go to a separate section. There are areas where no development whatsoever is allowed. People apply for planning permission in such areas and all I would do with such an application, if it were from somebody other than the landowner, would be to send it back by return post, stating this was an area of no development. The person involved would not have to go through the full planning process with its delays.

In Kerry County Council we have rules referring to the family of a landowner. We have dowry houses — I am not sure if it is the same in other counties — whereby in an area of no development a farmer can give a plot of land to his son or daughter and they are entitled to get planning permission in such an area. However, I would not deal with a speculator who looks for planning permission to build on flat wasteland in Slea Head. Kerry County Council have decided that is an area of no development and I would send back his application by return post, end of story.

Section 4 deals with objections and the procedure that must be followed. I remember when I lodged an objection, all I had to do was say, "I object to planning being granted and I will send on my observations in due course". Simply because I said I would object, that was the end of it. They did not know why I was objecting. That was crazy. One should have to submit one's reasons for objecting and the fee, as is provided for in the Bill. Further observations could be made as time goes by but in the initial objection one should state exactly why one is objecting.

I objected because I felt my property would be devalued. Planning permission was granted for four houses across the road from me. I was told that my objection would not be taken into account as I did not own the view. Nobody owns the view. It would be different if somebody were blocking my light or if the building were too close to my house. Yet, the development did bring down the value of my house. If I owned the land on the other side of the road I too would have looked for planning permission. I have no objection to the developer.

A couple of months ago a man who had been refused planning permission came to see me. He was told that the development which he proposed to build would devalue the property in the area. He wanted to convert an old furniture shed into a youth hostel. He would have made no exterior changes to the building; yet, he was refused by the council on two occasions and by An Bord Pleanála. The only reason they refused his application was that it would devalue property in the area. I do not think the question of devaluing other property comes into planning applications but if it does I will be the first to go to court because I cannot understand why I was told my objection would not be upheld while another man was refused planning permission because the development would devalue the surrounding property.

When people go through the whole planning process, go through An Bord Pleanála, oral hearings and so on and at the end of the day are granted permission, often a local minority group will protest. They keep wrangling and tormenting the developer until eventually he pulls out. When a person goes through the planning process and has been granted planning permission, that person must be protected. He has done everything legally and yet some crank or organisation — nearly 100 per cent of the time it is our friends, An Taisce — will raise their ugly heads and there will be protest marches and so on.

Local county councillors and planning officers know where and when to grant planning permission and they know the rules. If somebody looks for planning permission and there are no local objections whatsoever, if An Taisce object to the development it will be turned down. That is wrong. In my locality An Taisce are faceless people whom I do not know. One goes into the council and is told, there is an objection from An Taisce. If the development were so bad, surely the neighbours or somebody else would lodge an objection? Why should it have to come from An Taisce? The day is coming when I will say, "abolish An Taisce." I put it straight to the Minister: there are sufficient planning officers to look after the development of our country.

If An Taisce were around when the Rock of Cashel was being built I am sure they would have objected to it. It would never have been built. Gallarus Oratory would never have been built in Kerry and neither would Hussey's Folly. I am totally frustrated because our generation will pass on and leave nothing behind as far as development and buildings are concerned. I repeat that if An Taisce were around when the Rock of Cashel was being built they would have objected to it. Years went by after the Rock was built and a town developed around it. It is a lovely place and attracts hundreds of thousands of tourists. Yet, An Taisce objected to the proposed development there.

In my home town a man tried to better himself. He owned all the land around Gallarus Oratory and he looked for planning permission but An Taisce and the Office of Public Works came down on him like a ton of bricks. I cannot understand this. I advised him to withdraw the planning application and talk to An Taisce and the Office of Public Works to see where he would be allowed to build. He wanted to erect a visitors centre using natural stone, also carparks and so on. An Taisce said there was no problem provided it was put underground. The Office of Public Works said he could build it a mile and a half away. What good is there putting a visitors' interpretative centre a mile and a half down the road from Gallarus Oratory?

It was not an elaborate development. It would have provided four jobs during the summer, and there would have been free parking for about 20 buses and 100 cars. That case has gone on for three years now; that is a disgrace.

When I was in Gouganebarra in Cork — a beautiful place — I read in the newspaper that people had reservations about Cork County Council building public toilets there. They said how out of place they would be. I could hardly find the toilets there because they merged into the background. The Office of Public Works or An Taisce could adopt a more positive attitude and say they wanted a traditional, old-style building that would blend with the area but, like Mrs. Thatcher, everything is "out, out, out".

An Taisce have said that if I had my way there would not be a national monument in west Kerry. I want to put it on record that when I was elected to Kerry County Council in 1974 I was the first councillor to give a full list of nearly every ogham stone, building, and so on to the planning officer in Kerry County Council, Lilian Carmody, to document so that if somebody were looking for planning permission to build near an ogham stone, fort, etc., the council would be able to check it out carefully. If An Taisce continue along the road they are travelling at present, in about 50 years time tourists will be told this is where the people of Dingle used to live. The population of the peninsula has halved in the last 40 years. We are expected to listen to outsiders, An Taisce and everybody else, tell us how to plan our county and our peninsula. That is wrong. People come to Kerry for a week's or a fortnight's holiday and decide to object to a person living in a bothán at the bottom of the mountain building a house. If these people want to preserve the Dingle Peninsula, let them pay us for doing so or create jobs.

There was a delay in the development of the Blasket interpretative centre and Gallarus Oratory but it had nothing to do with planning permission. I worked hard to get the Central Fisheries Board to stock a certain lake with fish but An Taisce objected. They said it was not natural to put fish into a lake where fish never were before. I am sick of An Taisce and others "looking after us". They are not looking after us, they are destroying us.

The process from planning application to somebody objecting to a decision being made is too long. I know this Bill will eliminate much of the delay but if, after An Bord Pleanála make their decision there is still a problem, priority should be given to hearing such cases in the High Court or the Supreme Court. I am reliably told that in the region of 8,000 potential jobs are held up because of objections to factories in different parts of the country, and many of these factories are in Cork. I agree to a certain extent with objections, but it is the people who will be affected who should be heard, not An Taisce or other groups who will object to anything.

I do not see anything wrong with a person putting a proper development or building a house for himself and his wife reasonably close to a national monument, having consulted with the authorities. Gallarus Oratory would not be there today if the owner of the land around it, his father, grandfather and greatgrandfather had not made sure that the monument was protected. It was not the Office of Public Works or An Taisce who protected the beehive huts in Slea Head; the poor people who tried to glean a living off the land protected them. Consideration must be given to the objections of local people or neighbours. That is very important because there might be a valid reason for such objections. Why should people who live miles away say that a house will look terrible near a beehive hut when the person concerned spent his lifetime protecting that beehive hut, protecting our heritage. Local people do not bulldoze these monuments. The only people who ever damaged them were outsiders.

I welcome the Bill because it will speed up the planning process. When the local council receive a planning application they should judge it on its merits; they should not take objections into consideration. How can one object to something that has not yet been granted? If I go into the local planning office and am told there are objections to my planning application I fear those objections will convince the planning officer to turn down an application when he should not do so. I would like to see An Taisce dispatched somewhere. They are watchdogs; that is what they were set up for but I too am a watchdog as is Senator Kennedy and the Leas-Chathaoirleach. We do not want to see our country destroyed. We want to do things in a proper way.

To most people the mysteries of planning law and particularly planning appeals are daunting. Senator Fitzgerald has just indicated that. Very often considerable expertise is needed in advising whether, when and how to appeal. I, therefore, welcome this opportunity to discuss in general terms the whole issue of planning and development in this country.

It is true to say that the impact of planning legislation could scarcely have been envisaged in the comparatively far off days before the hallmark and revolutionary legislation of 1963. The Town and Regional Planning Acts, 1934 and 1939, represented the first comprehensive attempt to provide a statutory framework for the control of development in Ireland. By the sixties, however, it had become apparent that these Acts suffered from serious defects. In the first place, these Acts did not become operative in an area unless the relevant local authority adopted their provisions. In the second place, even if a local authority did decide to adopt these Acts, its statutory obligation to plan the development of the area was very loosely defined. In the event, only one scheme was actually prepared and that was the result of an order of mandamus which was made by the High Court in the case of the State Modern Homes (Ireland) Limited v. Dublin Corporation in 1953 which directed Dublin Corporation to produce a scheme under these Acts. In the third place, the powers of local authorities to enforce planning legislation were rudimentary and in practice they were very rarely used.

The Local Government (Planning and Development) Act, 1963, repealed the Acts of 1934 and 1939 in their entirety and established a far more comprehensive system. Planning was now to be of universal application and not merely at the option of local authorities. Each local authority was now under a statutory duty to prepare a development plan within three years — a set of guidelines for the planning and development of its area. Local authorities were given extensive powers to enforce compliance with the terms of planning permissions and to restrain unauthorised development. Thus from 1 October 1964, any developments so defined, that is any significant structural works or material change of use, required planning permission. Exemptions were provided in favour of agriculture, local authority projects in their own areas, development by State authorities and other relatively minor works and uses to be set out by ministerial regulations.

The overlord of planning and development established by the 1963 Act was the Minister for Local Government, now the Minister for the Environment. He had power to make regulations under the 1963 Act, to decide planning appeals and to determine whether a proposed development was or was not an exempted development which did not require planning permission. While it was the intention of the 1963 Act that the Minister should exercise general supervision over planning policy, in practice it is true to say that he held the reins lightly and it was usually left to the local authority for each area to lay down and administer its own planning policy. The Minister rarely intervened except in the case of planning appeals which he was required to determine on its merits as if each application had come before him for determination in the first instance.

Thus, the 1963 Act achieved a major transformation in the history of Irish planning law by forcing all local authorities in this country to produce development plans and gradually, under its influence, there emerged an appreciation by the public of the fact that any sizeable building project and, indeed, many changes of use required planning permission and the consequences of not getting planning permission could be very serious. Thus in the words of Philip O'Sullivan, Senior Counsel, the author of Irish Planning Law and Practice:

Today's legitimate hypersensitivity to the needs of the environment is founded on the cornerstone of the 1963 Planning Act which, as amended and extended by four subsequent Acts, has provided an enduring contribution to civilised life in modern Ireland.

There were, however, two significant defects in the 1963 legislation. One had to do with the lack of teeth in the enforcement provisions of the 1963 Act and the second was that planning appeals were dealt with by the Minister for Local Government who was perceived, perhaps, as being too close to the political arena to carry out this function in a satisfactory manner. Thus the Local Government (Planning and Development) Act, 1976 was introduced to establish an independent planning appeals board called An Bord Pleanála. That Act also created a completely new enforcement procedure, the section 27 procedure, in regard to planning injunctions. The section 27 planning injunction was an overnight success and is a great tribute to the Minister who introduced it and to the Department. It enabled planning authorities and anybody interested to go straight to the High Court and get an injunction, just as in any other urgent and important matter.

Permissions under the 1963 Act were not subject to a time limit. As time went on, this became increasingly unacceptable and so, in the 1976 Act, the so-called withering process was introduced into our law for the first time. This provided that permissions would cease to have effect five years from the introduction of the Act or from the granting of the permission, whichever was the later. This provision, though necessary, did not work very well on its first introduction in the 1976 Act and so it was replaced by a more refined and staggered variation in the Local Government (Planning and Development) Act, 1982, which gave planning authorities power to extend the usual lifetime of planning permission as part of their decision and also gave a right to developers to have that period of time further extended if they had completed substantial works within the lifetime of the particular permission.

The fourth planning Act — the Local Government (Planning and Development) Act, 1983 — was introduced largely to improve the constitution and composition of An Bord Pleanála which was set up under the 1976 Act. Under the 1976 Act, the members of An Bord Pleanála were appointed by the Minister for Local Government. Public confidence in this arrangement remained hesitant, however, and it became desirable, therefore, to distance the board's membership from any political connotations or connections. Thus, under the 1983 Act, the chairman is now appointed by the Government from a short list of usually three people selected by a committee consisting of the President of the High Court and five other members who are representative of political affairs in this country. The 1983 Act also provides that the five ordinary members are to be appointed from persons selected by professions or organisations concerned with physical planning, environmental protection, the construction industry and socio-economic interests. The fifth planning Act — the Local Government (Planning and Development) Act, 1990 — is concerned with compensation. Once again the first attempt in the 1963 Act as providing compensation for adverse planning decisions had proved very unsatisfactory.

Awards were potentially crippling in a post-inflationary age when local authorities had a reduced capacity to raise their own finance. Rather than face high awards, the planning authorities preferred to give undertakings to grant planning permission to claimants who had been refused permission for good planning reasons. However, these undertakings, as we all know, were contrary to the spirit of good planning and development and eventually the Supreme Court curtailed and restricted their scope. So the 1990 Act significantly reduced and curtailed the circumstances where compensation could be claimed whether in respect of refusals or grants which were subject to conditions. The 1990 Act also reduced the likely amount of awards by altering the rules of assessment.

A recent major feature is the environmental impact assessment legislation. This is now contained in two regulations which came into force on 1 February 1990. These regulations impose an obligation on any developer, including local authorities but excluding the State, who are carrying out specific works, to prepare a statement on their likely impact on the environment. This statement must contain certain specific information, it must be published and submitted to public comment and it must be assessed by the appropriate authority.

In summary, therefore, these Acts of 1963, 1976, 1982, 1983 and 1990, the regulations made thereunder and the environmental impact assessment regulations constitute a comprehensive and effective code which has been developed inside a mere three decades and which is being supplemented and interpreted by a detailed and developing body of Irish case law. I would suggest that the planning legislation in this country and the regulations made under it are as good as any in the world. I think our departmental officials and our practitioners and town planners are to be congratulated in this regard.

I hope that this legislation, the Local Government (Planning and Development) Act, 1991, will further improve and enhance our physical planning system while, at the same time, ensuring that a fair balance is struck between the needs of the developer, on the one hand, and the rights of the objector, the genuine objector, on the other hand. I hope that this legislation will lead to a better ordered and more expeditious appeals process without compromising, of course, the rights of genuine objectors and the ability of the planning process to subject planning appeals to rigorous, fair and objective scrutiny and examination.

I agree with the Minister for the Environment that one of the key tests of the effectiveness of our planning process and system is its ability to give final and conclusive decisions on development proposals within a reasonable time frame. While the need for rigorous scrutiny and examination of proposals is beyond doubt, I think it is true to say that a developer is legitimately entitled to expect that he will receive a final and conclusive decision on his proposal within a clearly defined period. Undue delays in the planning process cause understandable frustration for developers and can lead to the abandonment of worthwhile projects with consequent loss of investment and employment opportunities.

The need to avoid delays in the planning process is all the greater in a country such as Ireland because of the urgent and critical need for substantial new development in tackling our very serious and pressing unemployment problem. In addition, undue delays in our planning system or any perception that our planning system and process is ponderous or dilatory would put us at a serious disadvantage in seeking to attract internationally mobile projects.

However, this Bill as it stands is potentially unconstitutional. It seems to me to infringe some of the principles of constitutional and natural justice and could, indeed, worsen our planning process. While I welcome, in principle, any attempt to tighten up the timescale for planning decisions and appeals I question the taking of short-cuts in our planning system. This Bill is seriously defective in that it does not commit the necessary staff and other resources to An Bord Pleanála to ensure that deadlines are met and therefore, many time limits could be reached without the board having had sufficient time for proper analysis and scrutiny of an appeal.

I am amazed that the explanatory memorandum to this important Bill contains the following bald and unrealistic statement. I quote:

The Bill will not entail additional staffing or financial requirements for An Bord Pleanála.

It seems to me that the appeals process cannot be speeded up simply by the enactment of legislation. If the Oireachtas legislates that the appeals process has to be speeded up, if the Oireachtas decides that a decision has to be made, or that there is a statutory objective that a decision has to be made within four months but the provision for additional staff and resources is not made, then it seems to me that that could very well end up in bad decisions being made and bad planning being introduced into this country. On the one hand, it could lead to a substantial increase in the number of refusals of genuine planning appeals while, on the other, it could lead to the granting of planning permission by default due to the lack of adequate staff and resources to carry out proper analysis of a proposal within the prescribed time limit.

That cannot be the intention, I would suggest, of the Houses of the Oireachtas nor should it be the effect of this legislation. Moreover, the rights of objectors could, in many circumstances, be restricted and curtailed by certain provisions in this Bill. One of my principal concerns about this legislation is the tilting of the balance in favour of developers and builders who quite understandably want to get quick, expeditious and conclusive decisions and away from the interests of the general public and local communities and residents' associations and even bodies such as An Taisce, who were, I believe condemned here this morning by Senator Fitzgerald.

Certain provisions in this Bill, particularly sections 2, 3 and 4, will have the effect of making it more difficult for members of the public, third parties, residents' associations, local communities, individual citizens, An Taisce and other such bodies to lodge an appeal against an application with which they are unhappy. My concern is that this Bill will make it easier for the well resourced company, the well resourced individual, the well resourced organisation, to pursue their interests while making it more difficult for the ordinary citizen or the poorly resourced residents' organisation to pursue their interests.

Irish planning law differs substantially from the United Kingdom planning law in that it is based on the philosophy that the public in general, as well as persons whose legal interests are affected, are entitled to participate in the planning process. This position is well summed up by Justice Henchy in the Supreme Court case of Stanford v. Dún Laoghaire Corporation in 1981. He stated:

The grant or refusal of planning permission involves three parties: the developer, the planning authority and the public. It is to be said that the exercise of this quasi-judicial function would be flawed if the public, one of the interested parties whose interests do not necessarily coincide with those of the planning authority were to be denied the opportunity of yielding forth interested persons, who could make representations or objections.

I am, therefore, concerned that good decision-making may be sacrificed in the interest of speed and that the statutory time limit of four months may be too short for the processing of many appeals. It is true that section 2 (3) will enable An Bord Pleanála at their discretion to extend that period where it is appropriate but we all know that more and more planning applications and appeals are becoming very complicated. For example, we are now in the era of environmental impact assessments and a much more professional approach is being taken to both planning applications and planning appeals.

One of my main concerns relates to the period of time and the procedure for making appeals. Under existing law article 36 of the 1977 regulations provides that an appeal shall (a) be made in writing, (b) state the subject matter of the appeal, (c) state the grounds of the appeal and (d) be accompanied by the appropriate fee. It was decided by the High Court in the case of the State (Walsh) v. An Bord Pleanála in 1980, and by the Supreme Court in the State (Elm Developments Ltd.) v. An Bord Pleanála in 1981 that an appellant in lodging his appeal need not state the grounds of that appeal at that time. In the Walsh case Keane J. stated:

The language of Article 36 is undoubtedly mandatory; but that by no means concludes the matter. The law has for long recognised a distinction between those parts of an enactment which may properly be regarded as imperative and those which are merely directory.

In the Elm Developments case, Henchy J. stated that the effect of section 17 of the 1976 Act was that the board may always treat the grounds lodged with the appeal as merely interim or provisional grounds, and essentially informative. Section 17 entitles the board in dealing with a reference or an appeal to take into account matters other than those matters which were raised by the parties.

Moreover, even if the appeal contains a full statement of the grounds of appeal, that statement is not conclusive as to the grounds that may be considered on the hearing of the appeal. The grounds of the appeal are not to be equated with the pleadings in court proceedings. They do not or cannot circumscribe or identify the issues on which the appeal will be decided. The reasons the courts have held that "shall", which is mandatory in language, means "may" in article 36 (c) shows their willingness to facilitate public participation in the planning process.

Under section 17 of the 1983 Act, where the grounds for the appeal are not stated at the time the appeal was lodged, the board may serve a notice on the appellant giving him 14 days to state them, and warning him that if he does not state the grounds within that period the appeal may be regarded as withdrawn. Under the new procedure, however, the appellant must lodge his appeal within one month and that appeal must state in full the grounds of appeal and the reasons, considerations and arguments on which these grounds are based. That is provided for in section 4 (1) (d). If the appeal does not comply with this requirement it shall be invalid, according to section 4 (2) (a).

This means that in future it will not be possible for an objector to write to An Bord Pleanála objecting to a planning decision and later submitting considered grounds and reasons for that particular objection. This requirement will, I believe, place local communities, residents' associations, bodies like An Taisce and ordinary individual citizens at a considerable disadvantage.

This Bill is also defective in that if fails to make any provision which would make An Bord Pleanála democratically accountable. The Minister for the Environment should make provision in this Bill for the setting up of an Oireachtas environmental committee of both Houses so that An Bord Pleanála will be subject to scrutiny not in relation to any particular decision but in relation to general planning policy, efficiency, balance and fairness. I also believe that the board's powers to initiate material contraventions of development plans which have been prepared and drawn up by local authorities should be removed.

Provision should be made in this Bill which would require publication of the board's inspector's report on each appeal that is made. It seems to me that in the presentation of this Bill an opportunity has been missed to clarify a number of issues that have arisen over the years, including the issue as to when does a planning authority give its decision. In the State (Murphy) v. Dublin County Council in 1970 O'Keeffe P. held that the planning authority gives its decision on the day it puts it in the post in accordance with section 7 of the 1963 Act. O'Sullivan and Shepherd, however, in their book point out that the Murphy case was based on an earlier English decision, which has since been distinguished and in Freeney v. Bray Urban District Council in 1982 O'Hanlon J. said obiter that the planning authority does not give its decision until the applicant receives it. Therefore, this matter should have been clarified in this legislation.

I wish to refer to two matters which I regard as of special significance. First, I welcome the provision in section 19 which was included on Committee Stage as the Bill passed through the Dáil to grant access to all parties to the Circuit Court in respect of injunctions against unauthorised development. In a speech delivered to the Incorporated Law Society dated 29 November 1986, Mr. Justice Ronan Keane, a former President of the Law Reform Commission observed: "I have no doubt that the section 27 machinery is highly desirable machinery. I think it has had an extremely salutory effect on unauthorised development and unauthorised use". Mr. Justice Keane added: "The High Court has an exclusive jurisdiction in this area. The Circuit Court has no jurisdiction for reasons which I don't follow". I, therefore, welcome this change in section 19 for access to the Circuit Court. I agree with the Minister that allowing this access — the Minister put it very well in his speech to this House — to the Circuit Court for section 27 injunctions will help to further enhance and improve the effectiveness of this injunction.

Secondly, I wish to refer to the very positive and constructive discussions that have taken place between the Department of the Environment and the conveyancing committee of the Incorporated Law Society in respect of time limits for planning enforcement. That committee comprised John F. Buckley, Patrick Fagan, Rory O'Donnell and Philip O'Sullivan, SC. In their memorandum entitled, Enforcement Procedures in Planning Legislation, they submitted that absolute and certain time limits of say five years should be introduced with regard to the institution of enforcement and kindred proceedings under the planning code and, as appropriate, the service of notices in connection therewith. The difficulties in the planning field which most frequently confront conveyancers — and indeed they are many — include those emanating from actual or possible breaches, uncertainties and lack of evidence.

That committee emphasised that attempts to achieve clarity and certainty in any given situation are greatly disadvantaged by the passage of time and by the fact that planning authorities often decline to make records back beyond five years available to solicitors and their clients. Frequently, the planning history of a particular property is not readily available. Breaches or perceived breaches include matters — often minor matters but serious matters for the conveyancers — such as extensions to and conversions of domestic dwellings, and the sale of secondhand houses and shops. In respect of use, it can sometimes be extremely difficult to establish the use over a long period of years to which different portions of a property have been put, particularly if internal works or rearrangements have been carried out which did not themselves require planning permission.

The approach made by the Incorporated Law Society to the Department of the Environment was inspired by the very significant difficulties obtaining as a result of time elements within the planning legislation itself. An ever increasing time limit running back to 1 October 1964 is likely to produce more and more insoluble problems and hold up the sale of property.

The committee, therefore, submitted that the imposition of absolute and certain statutory limitations on the timing of all enforcement procedures under the planning legislation was desired and this was the primary objective of their submission. In a similar vein, in the speech which he made to the Incorporated Law Society, Mr. Justice Ronan Keane made a number of observations: first, the all important feature from the point of view of application under section 27 is that there is no time limit and that in theory at any rate a person who erects an unauthorised structure or who makes unauthorised use of land is liable at any time, no matter how long it has been in existence, provided that it came into existence since 1 October 1964, to find that that structure has to be removed or the use discontinued; second, with regard to warning notices, the same procedure applies. There is no time limit; third, all this has created very considerable practical problems; fourth, the position whereby there are no time limits for the making of section 27 applications or the serving of warning notices is difficult to justify; fifth, whether one should follow the headline in relation to normal enforcement procedures and simply provide a five year limitation period in respect of section 27 and section 26 is a matter on which there might be debate, but he says, it is a possible solution; and sixth, this modest reform would not affect the proper operation of these sections but would avoid a situation which is at present capable of creating injustice.

I welcome indeed the statement and the assurance which was given by the Minister in his Second Stage speech to this House. I quote him in respect of time limits for planning enforcement. He said:

I would like to inform Senators at this point that I hope to bring forward on Committee Stage an amendment dealing with the time within which enforcement action can be taken in relation to unauthorised or non-conforming development. Some of the enforcement powers under the Planning Acts, may only be used within five years of the relevant contravention, but others are open-ended. I believe that these open-ended powers are unnecessary for the enforcement of proper planning and development, and that their existence gives rise to serious practical problems, particularly for the property market. Accordingly, I intend to propose that a five year time limit will apply to the use of all planning enforcement powers.

I welcome this statement of assurance from the Minister. It is similar to legislation which has already been introduced in the United Kingdom for the capping of these time limits.

In conclusion, I wish this legislation well and hope it will achieve its objectives of enhancing and improving our physical planning system.

I welcome the Minister to the House on this important Bill. We have to be very conscious of planning because planning in whatever form or for whatever purpose involves our environment and our environment is precious. Any regulations, laws or developments dealing with the environment must be given the closest and deepest scrutiny and adapted to meet changing times.

Our planning laws are 30 years old. Along the way changes have been made, new laws have been brought in and today this Bill is reforming the process of applications for planning permission and for decisions on planning permissions. There are a number of bodies involved in the planning area — An Bord Pleanála, the local authority, the Environmental Protection Agency to an extent and the Department. We must take a broad view of planning applications. When applications are made, it is very important that the final decisions be given within a reasonable time. That is what this Bill is about.

What is important is that the Bill seems to incorporate a set of checks and balances. We cannot rush decisions because we might be impinging on somebody's rights. We cannot destroy opportunities for development on the basis of frivolous or unnecessary or, in some cases, vindictive objections. We cannot allow ourselves the luxury of foregoing these opportunities because of the slow process of administration and a clogged up system. This Bill addresses those problems.

Recently we seem to have received a lot of bad press in relation to objections. Over the last number of years there seems to have been an objection syndrome. I do not wish to undermine the opportunities of people to object, but it should be done within the structures and rules which protect the interests of all, and then there should be final conclusions.

Senator Fitzgerald mentioned An Taisce and he was not very complimentary about them. I would not be so hard on them but I found it extraordinary and unreasonable that they did not allow the fisheries board to stock a lake. An Taisce have an important role to play, of course, but the members should be more public and everybody should know who they are. I recently heard a Deputy proudly announce that he was a member of An Taisce. About an hour later a planning application came in front of the council of which he was a member and he castigated the objectors to the development, one of whom was An Taisce. It was the £25 million development of Lough Key Forest Park, which is being objected to at the moment. Politicians are sometimes inclined to hit out at groups like An Taisce. An Taisce are somewhat to blame for that. In my local authority we invited An Taisce members down to explain the situation and I found it was a very helpful exercise. There should not be a major conflict between local authority members and An Taisce. They are all in it together; they are all, I presume, in favour of development, but of development that protects the environment.

The Environmental Protection Agency Bill which was passed recently and for which the Minister here is responsible, is very important as regards planning and particularly our environment. We are possibly the only country left in Europe that has, to a great extent, an unspoiled environment. We should learn from the experience of other countries, make sure that what has happened elsewhere does not happen in our country and that we do not allow developments for whatever purpose, to destroy our environment. We have a responsibility as public representatives to maintain the environment in the state in which we got it. We will be failing in our duties if we do not. People will say jobs and development come first. I do not believe there is much real conflict at all. Both jobs and development are vitally important but our environment is especially important. There must be a balance and there can be, with proper controls and proper attitudes.

Some people think of the environment as something far away. The environment is the ground we walk on, the air we breath, the water we drink, the water we swim in. It does not have to be on the Dingle Penisula where the scenery is beautiful. You could be walking the banks of the Suck and it could be just as beautiful. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. We must protect our environment.

This Bill will also deal with a problem which I have been very interested in for a while. There are people in certain parts of the country who will object to anything. They lodge an objection and usually follow it up by a letter to the local paper. They let it go through the whole process from thereon in or they may make some further submission later. That opportunity will now be denied to them. That is no harm. They must now make a proper objection and lodge their submission on the day appointed. That will bring into focus the obligation on people who are interested in objecting to a particular development to do so quickly and properly, not in a casual way.

All objections will be dealt with in a matter, possibly of four months. That is very important in relation to tourism. People are looking towards Ireland for tourism development and auctioneers will tell you that they are constantly looking for suitable sites for the development of small marinas, craft industries and maybe some holiday cottages on the banks of our rivers and lakes. They do not want to impose that on our lakes but they want to be quite close to such facilities. With proper planning these developments can be of great benefit to an area whose visual amenity can be enhanced. When objections are raised and a quick decision cannot be obtained, local authorities can be blacklisted in the books of auctioneers who would be potential conveyers of clients to the county. We do not want a concentration of development of amenity in any particular area, because that interferes with the environment. A spread of development is very important. Small tourism developments are something we will see more of, provided we understand them and that our attitude and that of our planning officials towards them is changed to some extent.

Tourism is a clean industry and it provides great opportunities for employment. I mentioned Lough Key Forest Park which has been objected to on the grounds that it would interfere with the environment and access for people going into the park. I do not think you can get a finer development than a 160 or 170-bed hotel, an 18 hole golf course, indoor and outdoor sports facilities and a number of chalets, involving a £25 million investment of foreign money. It is equivalent to getting a major IDA manufacturing industry in the area. While the manufacturing industry might, in some way, damage the environment I do not think this development would do so. It would greatly benefit the north-west and I hope it is not lost to the country, never mind to the county.

I think it was Senator Kennedy who mentioned planning conditions and their implementation. The failure of developers to implement planning conditions is a scandal. They evade their responsibility and leave estates, roads, footpaths and play areas unfinished, so that residents' associations blame the local authority. The system will have to change regarding conditions. I understand there is a bonding system in Dublin but there will have to be a national system because there are still cowboys around. I am sure Members of this House will have had many representations from residents' associations whose roads or villages were left unfinished as a result of a developer short-changing them. We will have to tighten that system. On that I hope that any further legislation contemplated will back up the local authority to make sure that developers do not do a bunk before they have provided all the amenities.

I was interested to hear from Senator Fitzgerald that up to 8,000 jobs could be held up because of planning objections. It is wrong to allow such a situation to develop. I think this Bill will address that and will bring back confidence to potential developers. If they know that, inside a certain time frame, they and the objectors can get their points of view across and a decision will be taken it will encourage people to become involved in developments.

We must achieve a reasonable balance between the developer and the objector. However I am worried about the brevity of the time allowed between the decision of the local authority and a possible objection to An Bord Pleánala. Possibly more time could have been granted to allow people to prepare a case but obviously the Department, the drafts people and the Minister have considered this and are happy with it. We should make sure we do not tilt the balance in the wrong direction.

The local authorities are clogging the system to some extent. Under law, planning permission has to be given within 60 days, but there are always loopholes. Loopholes are fine if they help the person who is making the application, but if they are there to accommodate the local authority and to string the applicant along, then it is time for change. I am opposed to a situation I have seen develop in local authorities in recent times. An application for a development is made, a series of officials deal with it and it is sent to the planning officer. Then the week before the decision is due, a letter goes out for further information. That is an abuse of the system.

I believe local authorities are not carrying out their duties in a proper manner when they do such a thing. It is becoming more and more apparent that planning officials are prepared to use this device against the applicant and to hold up development. Their point of view is either taken on board in further discussions or sometimes, at that stage, the developer may decide to walk away altogether. I do not think that should happen. The local authority should make its decision, they should let the due process take its course, and they should not be allowed to hold up a development by looking for further information. I ask the Minister to look at this matter. If local authorities were the final arbiters I would not mind their doing this, but there is further opportunity for dealing with such matters after their decision is taken. In future planning Bills, this matter should be considered because I think the balance is not tilted in favour of the applicant. The local authority and the planning officer have the upper hand.

I welcome the Bill. It will bring confidence back into the planning appeals system and it sets down good guidelines. I think it is balanced, except for the point I made. I have no doubt it will restore confidence in people who are making applications for planning permission. When they came to An Bord Pleanála, they will know that the structure offers them protection as well as the objector.

I welcome the Minister to the House. I believe she has chided me personally in the past for seeming to lack interest in environmental concerns and for not appearing in the House. I am sure the Leas-Chathaoirleach would say I have made too many contributions and wishes I contributed less.

I am a great admirer of the Minister and of the work she has done in her capacity as Minister of State at the Department of the Environment. I particularly note the very radical decision taken eliminating smog from the city of Dublin. It was a bold step and I compliment her on it. It is the context of those decisions and her genuine commitment to the environment and to a better quality of life for the citizens of Dublin and of the country that I discuss this Bill.

The Bill amends the law relating to planning appeals where An Bord Pleanála is concerned. The purpose of the Bill is to ensure that decisions are taken more quickly, that the process is streamlined and expedited and that undue delays do not occur. All the legal proceedings are to take place within a period of four months, if any decisions are challenged and come back to the board.

It is a desirable that we should seek to eliminate any delays and ensure that valid proposals for development are not be aborted or left aside because of undue delays in the planning procedures. We must ensure that the correct balance is found between those who may be affected by the planning decisions and the interests of the builders or developers. This brings us back to the ordinary citizen, residents' and tenants' associations and the community. I am concerned that we get the balance right and that we leave enough time to advertise the procedures so that people who will be adversely affected, perhaps for the rest of their own and their children's lives will be able to follow them, lodge their applications or, objections, and make their submissions, for appeal hearings. The balance of concern should be for the citizens rather than the developer. I am not sure that in this legislation, the balance is right.

I welcome the legislation in general terms. It is important. It concerns what we rather euphemistically call the built environment but also the entire environment. Planning is an essential part of the changes we make in relation to that environment as we impinge upon it as human beings, earning our livelihood, making space for ourselves and expressing ourselves in a social, geographical and national setting.

In Georgian times, when we were ruled by Britain, there was a concern among builders and developers for taste. Taste and style were to the fore. Tenement houses and the ordinary people, the rabble as they were known, were not taken into consideration but there was a certain taste and style about quality development and that was what mattered. There was quality development for the "quality". In Victorian times, greater attention was paid to organisation, rationalisation and functionalism. The functions of buildings and street developments were emphasised and a great age of reason prevailed. We still have quite a number of streets which were built along mathematical lines and buildings, institutions in particular, built upon multi-functional lines and carefully organised to maximise space for the purpose intended.

In our new democracy in the 20th century we were really too poor to care. That has been the sad thing about much of our planning in the decades gone by. As a result, the country fell into a state of dereliction. Money was not forthcoming for capital projects to ensure that there was proper organised development on a national basis. As we approached the fifties, sixties and seventies we gradually began to develop the country more but without proper controls. There was an urban sprawl which owed more to dereliction than to good organisation and planning. Estates were left unfinished and services were minimal in certain areas. We were more interested in the fact that industries would provide employment than with any concern for the environment. Chemical industries came and we had to suffer for that and reaped a rather bad harvest in terms of health and environmental interference in many areas. We did not take precautions.

As recently as the last decade, one of our political parties advocated an oil refinery in Dublin Bay without consideration for the dangers it posed for the entire city of Dublin.

The thinking at the time was that we must have development at all costs, rather than having properly organised or monitored development. Unfortunately I have to admit that, in many cases our local authorities aided and abetted that scenario as did the Department of the Environment. One of the reasons An Bord Pleanála was established was to prevent excesses. Some decisions may have been made for the right reasons, others, perhaps, for the wrong reasons. An Bord Pleanála was set up with the intention of taking the strong political element out of planning decisions which could have a great bearing on people's lives and on the environment.

As recently as last year, we put legislation through this House, and through the Dáil because abuses were taking place, particularly in Dublin city, and there were material contraventions of the development plan. The Minister put forward legislation to deal with that. Ironically the exercise of the democratic process which we, as legislators and as local authority representatives were involved in, had, in fact, allowed such developments to take place over long periods. They had a detrimental effect, particularly on green field sites around the periphery of this city. Many very fine areas have been irreparably damaged as a result of decisions that were not in the best interests of the community or the city. Those decisions were taken by our democratically elected bodies.

That also took place, to a degree, in small towns and villages throughout the country. A type of satellite sprawl has taken place which has damaged our urban environment and has left it rather undesirable to travel through and to look at.

Thankfully, in recent times the EC has begun to intervene on our behalf. Environmental impact studies are now becoming a feature of major developments and that is a very welcome initiative. Unfortunately, it came from Europe; we did not take it on board initially. It is one of the benefits and one of the reasons we have much to be thankful for to Europe. It is a pity that the Maastricht Treaty has got a bad name. That was due to the way the referendum campaign has been handled, particularly by the Government. The Treaty has been made a plaything because of the inclusion of the Protocol. No effort has been made to get the message across to the people, to explain the Treaty to them or consult them in relation to the issues inherent in it. Environment is an aspect of the Treaty which is very relevant to us. It is an area in which the Community can best develop together. In environmental terms we can make much progress through Europe. I would like to see such development continuing in European terms.

I will not delay the House much longer. I had intended going through the civic charter but I am sure the Minister knows the civic charter has become the blueprint for city government in Dublin Corporation. It was an important and fundamental decision for the first time in the city's history when the entire city council adopted what they call a civic charter to promote fundamental improvements in the quality of civic life. Improvements envisaged include environmental and planning isues, such as rezoning. The city council will not put pressure on the county councilors to absorb an expanding population but will focus back on the city to encourage development in derelict areas, by means of building renovation and utilisation of existing city space. The objective is to eliminate the city's 106 derelict sites and to improve public transport by establishing a Dublin transportation authority in an effort to ease congestion and air pollution.

The charter focuses also on conservation and development of the city's facilities and waterways, on energy conservation and recycling with an initiative in kerbside recycling. Recycling will be encouraged at domestic and commercial levels and the city council aims to improve and beautify the city by improving the quality of life, the quality of the built environment, the street scape and so on.

The last sentence in the Bill's explanatory memorandum says that the Bill will not entail additional staffing or financial requirements for An Bord Pleanála. How can we improve procedures, shorten existing delays and get business done more efficiently without making an impact on staff and resources? There has been much criticism from the construction industry and the housing association because resources were not available to deal with the present backlog of planning appeals. We cannot, simply by enacting legislation, eliminate a problem by saying that a Bill will automatically streamline the system.

The Minister must accept that there will be additional staffing and resources implications under this Bill. Is the Minister prepared to accept an amendment to the Bill that, where necessary, additional staffing and reserves will be permitted? There is a danger that instead of speeding up the planning procedure we will end up with hasty decisions from an overworked, under-resourced staff and that will tilt the balance of fairness against ordinary citizens and in favour of developers which is not advisable. Local authorities do tremendus work but the timescale allowed and staffing levels in local authorities are inadequate. In the last five years, we lost 1,100 staff in Dublin Corporation and many of those have been lost from the planning section.

I welcome the increase from three weeks to one month in the period in which parties may lodge an appeal. However, I am concerned about the stipulation that everything must be done within that period. It will not be sufficient to lodge the objection; detailed submissions and reasons must also be supplied within one month. It is extremely important that planning notices are available to the public. Too many people advertise their planning applications in obscure periodicals or in Irish, not to communicate with Irish speakers but to ensure that as few people as possible see it. We must ensure that local residents are informed of planning proposals. We need to devise a method that will ensure that all affected people are informed of a planning decision. We must impose stricter conditions on the publication of planning applications.

I would like to go into some of the proposals made by An Taisce but they will undoubtedly have been put on the record by other Senators. I am concerned that the present balance be corrected in favour of the resident and to ensure access to information. In exceptional circumstances which might be defined, a person or group of persons should receive an extension of the permitted time to lodge an objection and to put forward their detailed reasons. Allowing one bite only of the cherry will place some people at a disadvantage; everything will have to be submitted within the first month. It should be possible to follow up objections without an obligation to restrict oneself to a single submission. It should be possible to add to a first objection as long as one keeps within the specified time.

Appeals fees which were increased since February — it now costs £100 to lodge an objection — should be abolished or costs returned to their original level. We should ensure that people are afforded the opportunity of lodging an objection and not allow financial obstacles to be put in their way. I suggest to the Minister that that might be adverted to at a later stage and she might accept an amendment to it.

I welcome the Bill in general terms and I am glad to see procedures being expedited and streamlined. I hope the Minister will be prepared to accept a couple of amendments on Committee Stage to ensure that the balance of fairness in relation to appeals is kept tilted slightly in favour of those who will be affected by developments.

I welcome this Bill. Efficiency in the planning process is long overdue; for too long there have been inordinate delays. People who started off on a project received no indication of when they would finally get a decision. Months passed, and sometimes years, before a final decision was obtained. Many good projects were delayed and people incurred substantial costs. I am delighted that this Bill brings more efficiency to the planning process and also guarantees that people will obtain a decision within a certain period of time.

There has been a huge hold up on investment in Dublin city because of delays in the planning process. Development proposals for Dublin Quays have been held up and sometimes on spurious grounds. Tens of million of pounds would have been spent there had they gone ahead. Unfortunately they have missed the market and are now on hold. If this Bill had been enacted a number of years ago much of the dereliction along the quays and in the north inner city might have been reversed. I represent a south side constituency but I believe priority should be given to the north inner city because it is a very fine part of Dublin with great development potential. It drives me mad to see people stranded in the planning process who would develop the north inner city. It could be as attractive as the south side and would be of huge benefit to the people living there and to all Irish citizens.

Proposals were put forward for a factory in my constituency some time ago. The developers approached all public representatives and received general approval with certain conditions. The company was foreign owned and the foreigners could not believe the amount of time the Irish planning process took. They could not believe that there was no final decision date. They were fascinated by an open ended decision period. At the end of the day, unfortunately the factory was not set up, 50 jobs might have been created but the factory went to the north of Ireland and was set up there within a few months. There was a problem with the proposal but this example shows how inefficient the old system was.

This Bill tackles that. Other examples of inefficiency abound, such as the Jury's Hotel at Christchurch which was held up on incredible grounds by one individual who put in an appeal to An Bord Pleanála. That hotel would have been built a long time ago but for the individual who gave an address in Harcourt Street, Dublin — the house was uninhabited, other people followed this objector but the initial objection was unlawful. It is finally going ahead. If this Bill had been in place then a decision would have been made by a specified date.

The Environmental Protection Agency, for which the Minister has responsibility, will be a considerable asset. When the Environmental Protection Agency is up and running, it will give good advice to local communities which will help them to understand the planning process. People are often concerned about a proposal for a factory or whatever in their locality. They may not be concerned about the design of the building but about its environmental impact and with this Bill and the establishment of the Environmental Protection Agency, people will feel more confident that they have an independent body to assess impact and that the planning process contains a cut-off point. That will benefit developers, residents' associations and local groups who often complain that after an appeal is lodged to An Bord Pleanála by themselves or the developer, they do not know when they can expect a decision. They are obliged to expect a decision at any time and often they feel obliged to ask for an oral hearing. The process has become cumbersome and inefficient and does not serve the developer or local residents adequately.

I am delighted to see that since 1990 and 1992 the number of appeals made has dropped. I am also pleased that the Bill retains the appeals process. As Senator Costello said it is vital that everybody may appeal to An Bord Pleanála. The views of the public should be available to local planners and to An Bord Pleanála, and on this point I agree with Senator Costello.

The appeals charge of £200 is extremely high and I ask the Minister to consider reducing it for developments below a certain size. A residents' association appealing a house extension or some other minor development would be obliged under this legislation to pay £200, a sizeable sum for a residents' association.

Active residents' associations serve local authorities well. In Ranelagh where houses were once predominantly in flats, many are being reconverted for use as family homes. An active residents' association there keeps in constant touch with the planners and ensures that the character of the neighbourhood is maintained. They appeal decisions on a regular basis, and £200 for every appeal would be a considerable burden. That is my only reservation about this Bill which will bring greater efficiency to the planning process and be of benefit to developers and to local residents' associations.

The Leader of the House said that we would review the situation at one o'clock and I am sure that is still the position. I understood him to indicate that if there was a likelihood of the Bill finishing before 2 o'clock there would be no sos. If that is still the position it would be appropriate for the House to decide now. Does the Acting Chairman have other speakers on the list? It would be unfair to the Minister and to me to expect me to finish at one o'clock. Can we agree on 1.15 as the concluding time? I welcome the Minister and I am glad she comes here often. Her first venture into politics at high level was in this Chamber and I hope she will occupy that chair for a considerable time to come, but not necessarily in the same Government.

The time restriction makes it impossible for me to raise all the issues I would like to but the Minister will be familiar with them. I would like to focus on shortcomings or restrictions for developers or appellants in the Bill and in that way we might improve the legislation.

The main purpose of this Bill is to restrict the amount of time that An Bord Pleanála has for dealing with most planning applications. There is, of course, the possibility of extending the time period in the case of large developments or difficult developments beyond the four months now proposed. There should be flexibility in most, if not all, planning matters and somebody other than the statutory body responsible should have a say. I am in favour of the Minister having an input there although many public representatives have urged that the Minister's involvement be restricted. The Minister should be involved when critical planning decisions are made.

There is a lack of provision for consultation with other bodies other than those directly involved in planning applications. I am speaking of statutory bodies such as An Bord Fáilte and tourism organisations who have few opportunities to make an input in the determination of planning applications. This approach causes problems as we have seen in the south of Ireland where a number of planning applications have been made by chemical firms. In our rush to ease unemployment we are anxious to see firms set up in this country. There is a danger, however, that our present approach might, in the long term, militate against job creation. I have evidence in recent times that Ireland, and particularly the south of Ireland, is becoming known as an area where chemical firms can set up easily. If that is likely to harm our tourist industry it would be better to forego the short term easing of unemployment for the long term advantage of attracting tourists.

Most people when they speak about the value of tourism do not give indepth thought to what harm can be done to the tourist trade by planning decisions, particularly for large firms which may harm the environment, even with the strongest of guarantees. I think the present Minister has dealt before with the problem of chemical firms. Most firms are established under strict regulations but if an impression goes abroad that it is possible for a chemical firm to get planning permission in Ireland easily, or if a company who failed to be allowed locate abroad gets permission here that may damage our image as a responsible State and may deter tourists. I ask the Minister to be vigilant and to ensure that our tourism industry is not harmed by the rush to provide short term employment.

A limit of four months is appropriate for An Bord Pleanála to deal with appeals but it is as puzzling to me as it was to other Senators, including Senator Costello, that no finance and no extra staff will be necessary. I am familiar with the appeal backlog and the difficulty for An Bord Pleanála in making decisions. Public representatives receive representations about appeals although we cannot do anything about An Bord Pleanála. Nevertheless we still receive inquiries as to why delays occur. Surely if there are delays with An Bord Pleanála and this legislation is necessary, it must be essential to provide extra finance and staff to clear the backlog.

The Bill provides for a transitional period of six months which is a warning to An Bord Pleanála to be up to date by then. I would hate to think that An Bord Pleanála would get into the situation of having to be up to date at the end of that transitional period because when there is a rush to deal with planning applications or a time limit is imposed it is my suspicion that when a decision is in doubt the answer is "no"—and I am not referring to the Maastricht Treaty. An application may be refused because it is expected to be resubmitted. I have spoken at local authority meetings on this matter and expressed my fears that decisions were being made in the negative because the application would probably be resubmitted. That puts unnecessary strain on people making planning applications and causes unnecessary delays. I hope that An Bord Pleanála have not been asked to clear their desks for these new regulations which come into effect six months after the signing of the Bill.

May I inquire if we will continue after 1 p.m.?

A sos was scheduled for 1 p.m. to 2 p.m. It would be appreciated if the Senator could finish just before 1 p.m. so that the Minister could make her contribution. If we continue after 1 p.m. I cannot prevent somebody else from making a contribution.

I do not think it is possible for me to finish before 1 p.m., however much I would like to do so. If there is nobody waiting to speak now I am sure there will not be anybody else offering to speak after me.

Acting Chairman

If the House agrees, we will continue for another ten or 15 minutes, the Minister will make her contribution and we will conclude Second Stage. Agreed.

The Minister made great play of the extension from 21 days to one month of the period for third party appeals but within that period or when lodging an appeal a third party must provide all the information they intend to put before the Appeals Board. This is a new restriction on time and I ask the Minister to consider extending the period from one month to five or six weeks. I would prefer six weeks.

As the Minister knows, a third party appealing a planning decision now gives notice of intention to appeal and is given a further period to gather the information. It would not be out of order to extend that period to six weeks because most third party appellants are not familiar with the making of planning applications or with map reading and in many cases they have to employ professionals, and that all takes time. The Bill places a time restriction on the average citizen who is ignorant of planning laws and find themselves having to appeal a planning decision. If the Minister was honest he would have said that in certain cases this provision would restrict people in relation to appeals. Until now those who gave notice of intention to appeal had a further month or two to supply the information to An Bord Pleanála. While the Bill extends the time allowed from 21 days to one month, it will not operate like that. I ask the Minister to take that into consideration.

The Minister said that no extra finance or staff will be required, but that time limit will place an extra burden on local authorities. While the local authorities are required under the Bill to supply the information within 14 days, that has not been the position to date. I do not object to prodding the local authorities to expedite the matter, and I believe some time limit should apply. However, take the example of Dublin County Council. They normally receive 40 to 50 a week planning applications but on the last Friday in May of this year they received 200 applications. If these regulations were operational how could that local authority supply the requested information to An Bord Pleanála in the time required? That is an enormous task; if local authorities do not follow up their planning decisions and give reasons to An Bord Pleanála, the board are unlikely to see their case irrespective of whether the decision is to grant or refuse the application.

The local authority must supply An Bord Pleanála with all the required documents and the reasons for their decision. I do not know how Dublin County Council would have handled that workload this week, having received 200 applications on the last day of May. I accept that the reason for the large number of applications on that date was that the new building regulations came into effect on 1 June and there was a rush to submit applications in order to comply with the old regulations. However, there are other occasions when this can happen. For example, at Christmas time, it is generally considered that everything comes to a standstill for two weeks. Offices do not close down for two weeks but many of them operate on half staff and most architects and planning consultants take holidays at that time. Sufficient consideration has not been given to these matters. I want to see planning appeals expedited much sooner so that people know where they stand. At the same time we must be fair to local authorities and ensure that they receive extra staff and finance to supply An Bord Pleanála with the required information. It is necessary that a planning application is adequately considered and that the local authority are not put under any strain to supply the required information.

Oral hearings are an important part of planning appeals and the Bill appears to place a restriction on them. I am aware that some oral hearings have taken place for reasons other than planning and that they can be protected and delay decisions on planning appeals. Therefore, I do not blame the Minister for placing a restriction on oral hearings where necessary. However, it should not be left entirely to An Bord Pleanála to decide whether an oral hearing should take place. Again, this is an area which I consider to be the Minister's responsibility. I would like the Minister or some other body having the power to make that decision because the board could be overloaded with other work. The Minister is now imposing a restriction on them with which I agree, but the board could end up with a huge workload — which Dublin County Council would have this week if these regulations were in operation — and would not be anxious to have oral hearings.

I would not like to see somebody denied an oral hearing if it was necessary, but there have been unnecessary oral hearings in the past. An oral hearing on a planning decision should not be denied to a person who could benefit from it. Therefore, I ask the Minister to consider some measure half way between deciding an appeal and the oral hearing. I suggest she consider the arrangement of site meetings by An Bord Pleanála, to which those involved in the appeal would be invited. Most appeals are made by developers, architects or planning consultants, people who are familiar with planning laws and reading maps or plans. However, in some third party appeals those involved may not be familiar with planning laws and may have to incur considerable expense in employing architects or consultants, and even then the true picture may not be evident to an Bord Pleanála.

The Minister supports — at least she did in the past — site meetings at local authority level and I believe it would be feasible at An Bord Pleanála level. They could obviate the necessity for oral hearings and give a clearer picture of the case being made, as not everybody has the ability to read plans or maps and not every third party appellant can afford to employ consultants. Everybody should be afforded the opportunity of seeing on site the development taking place and this provison could expedite matters.

If a developer or anybody else moves in to a site to demolish an old house — as happened in my area — the local authority can take out a High Court injunction to prevent that person from demolishing the house or felling trees, as is happening in Wicklow, but it stops there. It may not be possible to repair the damage and the High Court may refuse to direct a person to carry out the repairs. No penalty can be imposed on the person who has demolished the building. I am referring to an old building which was once the residence of the Lord Mayor of Dublin. An injunction was served on the owner of the building which was half demolished overnight, to stop the demolition work. However, the building cannot now be restored and the High Court refused to adjudicate on its restoration. The court ruled it had no power in that regard and could only serve an injunction to prevent the work continuing.

Very often a great deal of harm has already been done before an injunction is served and, in some cases, trees are lost. There is no way of getting a developer to replant trees unless a planning application is submitted. If a planning application is lodged something can be done. In the case to which I referred in Tallaght the person to whom the house has been left in a will moved in to demolish it and the harm was done before the injunction was served on him. The house and trees have been completely demolished.

I ask the Minister to introduce legislation to ensure that not only can a local authority get an injunction to prevent a person destroying buildings, trees and so on but that the court may require the person who is guilty of the offence to pay somebody to restore the building or replant the trees.

I hope I have not delayed the Minister unduly. Sometimes when one hears of a decision by local authority officials in regard to a development project one becomes suspicious that it is not for the right purpose. However, it is not easy for local authority members to raise the matter of an official who is acting in an improper manner. The Minister should be vigilant in this regard and, if possible, introduce legislation so that a greater watch be kept on officials.

Senior officials of local authorities should be vigilant. I have had occasion during my many years as a member of a local authority to discuss developments in a certain way because I would have been liable to be brought before the courts if I made an accusation. I knew in my heart that certain unnecessary requirements were included in a development plan that some people were told they would have to employ certain contractors as they were the people who were familiar with developments in that part of the county and were the best people to employ. I do not have to spell out what was happening there. It is very difficult to address that and when I attempted to discuss it at meetings an official would ask if I was suggesting that there was impropriety. What does one do in a situation like that?

We must keep out corruption which could very easily creep into the planning arena. I draw the Minister's attention to that area which needs some examination. I could give some instances, but I have no proof. There were times when I was suspicious in relation to developments in my own area. I detest to see somebody getting a backhander.

It is not easy to discuss the matter with senior officials because most of them say their staff are above reproach. Senior officials should not have that attitude, they are there to see that officials are above reproach but, as some court cases have shown, people are not. There are people in positions where they can influence others. We must if possible, eliminate such actions altogether from planning applications. Certainly, some measure should be taken to ensure that senior officials, Ministers and others are vigilant in this regard.

I was unaware of the agreement to continue for a limited period. I will be extremely brief in deference to that agreement and I appreciate the courtesy of the Leas-Chathaoirleach and the Minister in the matter.

There are two fundamental principles that need to be stated and restated and one is that we wish to see development take place. That is essential. At the same time, we wish to maintain high environmental standards. There is no reason these two principles should conflict yet this could easily happen. The Minister of State, Deputy Harney, has introduced outstanding environmental legislation which means that our environmental requirements are much higher than most countries. They are far higher than in Northern Ireland or the rest of the United Kingdom. However, that can create problems with consultants from the UK and Northern Ireland who do not fully realise the stringency of our regulations.

It is important that there should be a correlation between planning and environmental requirements. We have a strict statutory process for planning which is now allied to a requirement for an environmental impact assessment. We must be careful to ensure that the environmental impact assessments and the requirements attaching thereto, stringent though they may be, do not become open-ended and that they do not get a reputation for meaning anything other than what the planning authority wish them to mean. If that happens our planning process will be completely undermined. As this relates primarily to major projects it could be of considerable significance in relation to industries setting up here. Unfortunately, we may not even be aware of this because if that impression is given we may not be considered for a project. I know the Minister and the Environmental Protection Agency are conscious of this problem and it is important that it is resolved. We want to ensure that developments take place under strict environmental conditions, but not in a way that proper developments are prevented or unduly delayed or are not considered because the impression has been given, rightly or wrongly, that it is extremely difficult to proceed with developments here due to our high environmental standards.

I am aware that the House has agreed to a time limit, therefore, I will be brief.

I welcome this Bill. The tightening up of the time limits on planning appeals from An Bord Pleanála is long overdue. The time taken by An Bord Pleanála to deal with appeals is unacceptable; in many cases developments have been lost because of unwarranted delays or the board's failure to deal with the large number of planning appeals before them. Many appeals are made on very weak grounds and some arise from local bitterness and have nothing to do with planning. I do not understand why they are delayed.

In relation to the four months time-scale, I favour three months, but some Senators may not agree with that. Once the information is submitted by the local authority An Bord Pleanála should be able to make a decision on the appeal within a few weeks.

Since the regulations in relation to section 4 motions have been changed and most decisions made by the planning authority are based on factual information and are within the framework of their county development plans, An Bord Pleanála should not interfere with the development plans of a county. In my county land was zoned for housing by Roscommon County Council and planning permission was granted on the basis of plans submitted by the developer but it was appealed to An Bord Pleanála and the appeal was upheld but the planning permission granted by the county council was ruled out. An Bord Pleanála took eight months to reach that decision. That was a peculiar decision and was not based on good planning. Obviously no consideration was given to the county development plan drawn up by the local authority. This raises serious questions as to how that decision was arrived at.

I understand Senator McMahon spoke earlier along those lines. This area should be examined. As a public representative, I would welcome the views of county councillors who have questions in this regard because I believe a number of decisions taken by An Bord Pleanála over the past few years leave a lot to be desired. Those decisions were not in the interests of good planning or development.

Senator Fitzgerald referred to An Taisce and the number of objections they have made. I agree with his sentiments because some of their objections to developments throughout the country, particularly in my county, are difficult to understand. The River Shannon borders my county. We all want a clean river, but we also need some proper development along the Shannon. It is regrettable that in the past 12 months a development adjacent to the Shannon, approved by Roscommon County Council, was rejected by An Bord Pleanála. It is scandalous that, when a local authority, following detailed consideration with the developer and with the backing of all elected members, grant planning permission, An Bord Pleanála reject the planning application or uphold the appeal. Such actions are not progressive.

It seems to be fashionable nowadays to object to all development. A £25 million tourist development was about to commence in north Roscommon but now we discover there are seven appeals with An Bord Pleanála and the project is delayed. Therefore, I welcome the timeframe for appeals. I welcome the Bill but the Minister and his Department should monitor carefully the decisions made by An Bord Pleanála because some of them leave a lot to be desired.

Acting Chairman

I thank the Minister and her officials for staying to conclude Second Stage of the Bill and I apologise for the delay.

I thank all Senators who contributed to this debate. I was not here at the earlier stages, but I understand it has been a constructive debate and I thank all sides of the House for that.

I am deputising for the Minister for the Environment; as Senators are aware he is attending the Earth Summit in Rio de Janeiro. The Government are anxious to proceed with this Bill in order to streamline certain matters and to ensure that planning appeals and related legal problems are dealt with more efficiently and speedily.

During the debate many Senators raised general planning issues. This Bill is very specific; it deals with the planning appeals process for development and certain proceedings relating to planning matters. Therefore, I am not at liberty to speak in a general sense about planning except to say that in this country it is often the view that environmental pollution is air, water or noise pollution, but we also have visual pollution which is as destructive and damaging to the environment. That does not mean that everything that is old is good and everything that is new is bad. There are many old buildings we might be better without because of the state they are in and equally, there are many fine examples of modern developments in this city — and there are many bad examples too.

We all acknowledge we have made planning mistakes. Planners and professionals differ, what is a good planning development to some might not be to another. It is important that planning decisions do not remain in the political domain as such, but that they are dealt with at executive level. The Government tightened the material contravention provisions last year because of our concern with what was believed to be misuses of those procedures. This action will lead to better planning decisions in the future, but it will give local authority members reserve functions, where there is wide agreement in the local authority, to be able to direct the manager to grant a certain application.

This is a fair Bill; it introduces a limit of four months for An Bord Pleanála to determine planning appeals in almost all cases. Equally, it extends the rights of third parties. Instead of the period of 21 days it gives them a period of one month in which to lodge an objection and state their case. As the Minister said, at the moment the procedure is that a statement of appeal is made and subsequently and often much later the grounds for the appeal are submitted. Although section 17 of the 1983 Act did give An Bord Pleanála powers to prescribe a period by which the grounds for appeal had to be made it has not worked out well in practice and it puts the onus on the board to get the grounds of appeal and it is not conducive to efficient planning practice. Therefore, this legislation makes it clear that in almost all cases the board will have to decide within a period of four months.

Concern is expressed in some quarters that because the period for lodging the grounds for the objection is being restricted to one month that that in some way diminishes the rights of third parties. I do not believe that a lengthy process is needed in order to get the grounds of appeal. I understand the strain and pressure under which many organisations have to operate, and particularly individuals who may wish to make an appeal. Nonetheless where there is determination and where there is a serious appeal, I believe that the grounds can be sustained within a period of a month. I equally believe that it is not unreasonable to put a limit of four months. A long process is not required in order to ensure that planning applications are properly scrutinised. What is important is not the period of time — although a minimum period is obviously necessary — but that the right decision is made and that it is made by experts who are in a position to make the decision. During the course of this debate Senators expressed concern about the resources of An Bord Pleanála. My Department and the Government have always looked favourably at requests from the board for additional resources and it is not true to say that staff numbers in the board have been decreased. In the 1980 and 1990 board reports we see that the number of planning inspectors increased from 13 to 18 and the number of overall staff went from 59 to 62. The streamlining measures in this legislation will make it easier for the board. The Environmental Protection Agency which is now being established and which will deal with the licensing of certain activities will also remove from the board much of the pressure which dealing with very technical processes like the chemicals and pharmaceutical industries, for example, puts on their resources. In many cases they have had to resort to outside consultants to help them deal with the licences, and that has often been the cause of long delays. I believe giving the Environmental Protection Agency that function will greatly alleviate the kind of constraints under which the board might have had to operate in the past.

Senator Cosgrave asked about the publication of the board's report. The board is required under section 9 of the Act establishing the board in 1976 to submit an annual report to the Minister for the Environment. The 1990 report was submitted recently and it was well publicised in the media over the last few days. That report is always laid before the Houses of the Oireachtas. It is interesting to note a reduction in the number of planning appeals. I do not know if that is a welcome step or not.

Many Deputies raised the question of the public being made aware of planning applications and the lodging of appeals. I share that concern. It is right that the public should know very quickly when an application is lodged or an appeal made. At the moment my Department are carrying out a review of planning regulations with a view to seeing how we might improve the procedure to ensure that there is greater transparency.

A number of Senators raised the issue of giving local authorities additional powers where there is a view taken that a non-authorised development is about to take place. There have been difficulties, particularly in Dublin and I am sure also around the country, where somebody goes in at a weekend to demolish a building or deck it out into flats or whatever, and suddenly you find it is a fait accompli. Section 26 of the 1976 Planning Act gives powers to local authorities to issue a warning notice. Under this Bill the penalties for an offence under section 26 are being increased from a maximum of £10,000 to £1 million. I think the increased penalties will play a part.

Senator McMahon raised the possibility that the court could be given power to reinstate a building that had been destroyed or whatever, I think he referred to trees as well. I do not know trees can be reinstated; maybe the damage can be made good by planting new trees. He suggested that that might be done in another Bill. In fact, that is being done in this Bill under section 19 (2) on page 17, line 15. It says:

In so far as is practicable, that the land is restored to its conditions prior to the commencement of the development or authorised use.

This is a power being given to the High Court and the Circuit Court. That is a substantial power and it will act as a deterrent to those who feel that they are going to get away with a small fine and nothing else if they demolish an historic building or cause damage to our environment.

In relation to the points made about section 26 — warning notices — it is the Minister's intention to look again at this in advance of Committee Stage to see if it needs to be strengthened and if local authorities need to be given pre-emptive powers to stop something happening rather than waiting until it does happen. The Minister and the Department are examining that possibility in the context of Committee Stage.

I cannot conclude this debate without referring to the criticism of An Taisce that was made this morning. I do not share that criticism. An Taisce were lone champions of the environment in this country when it was very unpopular and unfashionable. An Taisce or the National Trust of Ireland is a prescribed body under the Planning Acts and that requires that they are consulted about certain matters and that they have an input into certain matters. An Taisce, for example, pay a reduced planning appeals fee. I do not know if that is widely understood. I am not saying that I would stand over every appeal lodged by An Taisce — I am not familiar with all the appeals — but I would stand over the work of An Taisce. They do an outstanding job with very limited resources and a small number of people and have been very vociferous in initiating many environmental debates.

I do not believe that criticism of An Taise is helpful. We need to see environmental organisations as allies and friends and bring them with us rather than seeing them as opponents. In some cases the objections they have had to make have, in my view, been reasonable. We have a very fragile environment. The whole debate at Rio de Janeiro and the need to deal with bio diversity and to preserve the world species, 10 per cent to 20 per cent of which are going to be extinct by the end of the decade, all of these things require that we have very tight controls on planning and that we deal with planning matters sensibly, particularly in areas of outstanding natural beauty. It is always a good thing if we can have discussion and dialogue. I do not accept that it is a question of having a balance between development and the environment, of Y amount of development and X amount of pollution. I believe we can have both. We can have development provided it is carried out in the proper area and to high standards and that is why it is important that we have the kind of controls contained in this legislation.

This country has a very clean environment. We are fortunate in that we were not heavily industrialised and have a very low population density. It may not be like that in the future unless we provide procedures that will ensure that whatever we leave behind adds to rather than detracts from the environment. As I said earlier, it does not mean that everything new is bad. There are many fine examples of modern buildings and of old buildings being adapted to modern uses, old school houses being made into libraries and museums and so on. We must adapt buildings where necessary and preserve others where that is in the interests of the building or the environment, and ensure that we construct modern buildings of which we can be proud.

I thank the Seanad for the constructive debate and particularly for the support from the Opposition. We all recognise that planning appeals should be dealt with more quickly than we did in the past and it does not require an extraordinary length of time to make the right decision. What is important is that the decision-making process is transparent, that the public have their views considered and that at the end of the day there is an independent planning appeals board.

I accept some of the points made by Senator McMahon about oral hearings. I think sometimes their value is grossly exaggerated. Everybody always wants to have an oral hearing. People think if they could only tell the board members what they thought of the inspector in some way they would have a better chance of having their case upheld but I do not accept that is the case. The people who work with An Bord Pleanála are professional planning experts and they know what is a good planning decision and what is not a good planning decision. It does not mean we might always agree with decisions they make but it is important that they make the decisions independently, that they consult and that oral hearings are held only where they are necessary and not just for the sake of having a hearing which can add to delays and costs.

It is hoped to take Committee Stage in this House in two weeks. I know the House is not meeting next week. I look forward to a constructive debate on the many issues that were raised by Senators during Second Stage.

Question put and agreed to.
Committee Stage ordered for Tuesday, 23 June 1992.
The Seanad adjourned at 1.40 p.m. until 2.30 p.m. on Tuesday, 23 June 1992.
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