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Seanad Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 21 Oct 1992

Vol. 134 No. 4

Order of Business.

Today's Order of Business is item 1 — the Irish Land Commission (Dissolution) Bill, Second Stage. I suspect that we will need more time, because I understand from the interest in the Bill that the debate may take another day. We will also take item 16, motion 47.

Item 1 will be taken from now until 6 p.m. and item No. 16 from 6 p.m. to 8 p.m.

On the Order of Business, would the Leader of the House, either today or tomorrow — and we will be prepared to sit longer tomorrow — make time available for an emergency debate on the crisis in Aer Lingus? I know this question is of interest to him, as it is to many Members. It would be extremely useful if we could have time today or tomorrow to discuss this matter.

Second, the Leader of the House supplied me with a programme of proposed legislation which may be coming here this session. Either today or tomorrow, perhaps he could give some indication of the Bills which he believes will be coming before this House this session.

Third, as a follow up to the Fianna Fáil Private Members' motion last week on the Press Council, would the Leader be prepared to make time available to debate the Law Reform Commission's proposal on the laws of libel and defamation? This is a matter in which many Members might have an interest.

I would like the Leader of the House to give us some indication today of the programme for next week when we are to debate the three referenda Bills. I hope he will indicate clearly that there will be at least three full days of discussion in this House as there has been in the other House.

I would ask the Leader of the House if he can give us an indication of the nature of the technical problem which is preventing or delaying the Milk (Regulation of Supply) (No. 2) Bill being taken a stage further. I support the call from Senator Manning for an emergency debate on the crisis in Aer Lingus. Indeed, I express my dismay that these matters seem to come like a bolt out of the blue and, in many ways, I would have hoped that such matters would be dealt with in a more orderly manner.

May I first express concern about the ordering of business, and in particular what occurred last week when we had two very important debates — one on employment and one on the economy — together? A very large number of people who wanted to speak, and who waited in an orderly manner, did not get in to speak, partly because no time limit was imposed and Senators spoke for an hour or three-quarters of an hour. Many speakers, both from the Government side and from this side, wished to speak. Obviously, I am not going to attempt to subvert the procedure of the House by making a speech on this issue, but I think it appropriate, a Chathaoirligh, and I am sure you agree, that we should make an attempt to tidy this up because we are trying to accede to the new orders in the House. This does relate to the fact that unemployment is a continuing problem and I strongly endorse what——

The Senator is making a speech now.

I have moved on to another issue, which is to support strongly what Senator Manning and Upton said about the situation in regard to Aer Lingus. I will put one phrase on the record and it is this. We have seen the crisis in Great Britain with 30,000 jobs to go in the mining industry. This is proportionately as significant as that catastrophe is for the English.

May I formally move an amendment to the Order of Business? I propose that we should take item 16, motion 35, in the name of Senator Brendan Ryan, Senator John A. Murphy and myself, about the response of the Government to the European Court case. In so doing, may I point out to the House that this is not an attempt to open up a discussion of the substantive issue — to use the phrase current at the moment — of homosexuality. That issue has been dealt with by the European Court. What we are dealing with is the Govenment's abrogation of their responsibilities towards fundamental human rights. It is a matter I feel very strongly about — not homosexuality but fundamental rights and the response of this Government.

I support the call for a debate on national airline policy and on the crisis in Aer Lingus. It now looks as if job losses are inevitable and the very survival of the airline is at risk. An urgent debate on the matter is needed and I call on the Leader to give that serious consideration.

I support the suggestion made by Senator O'Toole that we get some direction in relation to the Order of Business for next week, hopefully tomorrow.

In relation to the matter raised about initiating major legislation in this House, I would like to hear from the Leader whether legislation is to be initiated in this session and whether major issues will be discussed. I did suggest that the White Paper on the divorce referendum would be an appropriate matter for the House.

With regard to the comments made by Senator Norris in relation to the debate last week — that there was not sufficient time allowed because there was no time limit on speeches — it would be appropriate that a time limit would be imposed on the statements on the Green Paper on Education tomorrow so that everybody gets the chance to contribute as we have been waiting for this opportunity for a considerable time.

I would like to propose an amendment to the Order of Business that we take Motion No. 46 in the name of the Labour Party:

That Seanad Éireann calls on the Minister for Tourism, Transport and Communications to draw up an Air Transport Policy for Ireland incorporating SIPTU's proposals for Govenment Equity Funding for Aer Lingus; and outlining further proposals for European Structural Funding for our national Airline which plays a critical role in our island's transport infrastructure in trading with our European colleagues.

That is in line with the suggestions from all sides of the House that we have an urgent debate on Aer Lingus because of the enormous implications for jobs. There are proposals for a loss of 1,000 jobs, and a threat to 2,000 and the Minister is attending a board meeting of Aer Lingus tomorrow. It would be appropriate that we have a debate on his matter, especially since it concerns the constituency of the Leader of the House, and no doubt he will have a personal interest in it. In the past we have been unable to respond quickly to urgent serious matters. Since this motion is on the Order Paper, and in view of the desire to have a debate on Aer Lingus and the importance of the issues arising from it, I suggest that we take it as the first item on the Order of Business.

I formally second Senator Norris's proposed amendment to the Order of Business and say that he has put it as succinctly as anybody could. It is no longer a question of homosexuality; it is a question of whether this country takes its international obligations seriously. We do not define human rights at home any more; we have surrendered that right to the European Court of Human Rights. If we choose to ignore then when they say we are in breach of human rights, we are saying, essentially, that we do not take our international obligations seriously. We have a Minister for Foreign Affairs doing a good job of improving our image in these areas. This is precisely the way to turn things backwards. It is extremely important that our Government sort themselves out and stop running away from a hard issue just because they do not think it is important.

Second, I associate myself very strongly with Senator O'Toole's request for adequate and sufficient time to debate the three referenda proposals we will be receiving from the other House next week. I do not know why but we never had the promised debate on the outcome to the X case. It would be a salutary insult to this House if we were not given enough time.

On the question of Aer Lingus, let me say to the Members opposite that a backbench rebellion was extremely effective in saving the jobs of British miners; similar action here might be as affective in saving the jobs of Aer Lingus workers in the next week or so.

I support Senator Manning's request for a discussion on the Law Reform report on defamation. I would also like to ask the Leader if he would grant time next week for a debate on motion No. 41 — the report of the Sixth Joint Committee on State-Sponsored Bodies which deals with Bord na gCon.

I would also like to ask the Leader of the House if he would take on board motion No. 48:

That Seanad Éireann, in view of the High Court decision on the Stamp case, calls on the Government to introduce legislation to ensure that adopted children have equal rights with children born within marriage.

I would consider this to be a very simple legislative requirement and could be introduced to this House with very little difficulty and all-party agreement.

Last week I asked the Leader to indicate to the House what progress has been made in relation to the Milk (Regulation of Supply) (No. 2) Bill and he promised me a written reply. I would like to jog his memory. I know it is only one week later, but I await earnestly his words of wisdom on the state of that Bill. Perhaps he could indicate this afternoon to the House what has happened. We will be supporting the amendment to the Order of Business today on the basis that this Government have reneged on their international obligations and their obligations in the human rights areas.

I second the motion by Senator Costello to have the Order of Business amended to take motion No. 46 first. There is a very serious situation obtaining in Aer Lingus. One of the biggest employers in the country is in a state of emergency. Aer Lingus workers have put forward many proposals which have not yet received a public hearing. They have also made a major contribution to the well being of Aer Lingus. It is of the utmost necessity that we hear the full story of the contribution of both employers and employees in order to put this problem into perspective. I appeal to the Leader of the House today to give this issue the urgency it deserves. We are talking about the loss of a substantial number of jobs in an already high unemployment situation.

I would like to ask the Leader if it is possible to arrange for an early debate on the air transport industry, which was referred to here many times in recent months, with particular reference on this occasion to Aer Lingus, and to embody in that the position vis-a-vis Shannon Airport.

As has been mentioned, I am acutely aware of the situation in Aer Lingus. I share the concerns expressed on all sides of the House and agree with Senator Manning, Senator Haughey and others who are asking for a debate. It is known that the Minister will meet with the board of Aer Lingus tomorrow. Following that meeting I am sure we can arrange an opportunity to debate the problems there. It is not a local issue; our national airline is part of our national economy. I suggest we await the outcome of tomorrow's meeting before we have a debate on it.

Senator Manning asked about Bills that would be taken this session. We circulated what we could to the Party Leaders and Whips — the Irish Land Commission (Dissolution) Bill, 1989, the one we are debating at the moment; the Roads Bill, the Solicitors (Amendment) Bill, the Comptroller and Auditor General (Amendment) Bill, the Criminal Justice Bill, the Finance (No. 2) Bill, the Appropriation Bill and the Unfair Dismissals Bill. They are the Bills I know at this stage that we will be taking, but as we go along I will keep the House informed of other Bills we will be dealing with.

With regard to the Milk (Regulation of Supply) (No. 2) Bill, 1991, which was mentioned by several Senators today, I have written to the Department and am awaiting a reply in regard to the technical reasons we are not dealing with the Bill at the moment.

With regard to the Law Reform Commission report on libel and defamation, that is something we can deal with in the future.

Senator O'Toole and others asked about next week's business. We will definitely be sitting three days next week; more than likely those days will be Wednesday, Thursday and Friday. The situation is fluid in the other House at present. It is changing with each Order of Business and I await the outcome of the week. My understanding is that we will certainly be sitting Wednesday, Thursday and Friday next week, with the possibility of a Saturday sitting as well.

Senator Norris and others mentioned last week's debate on the economy and jobs. I have always maintained that that is an ongoing situation and I see several more opportunities for us to come back on it. I understand the Senators concern that, because speeches had not a time limit on them, there was not sufficient time for everyone to contribute. From now on we will put time limits on speeches to ensure that as many people as possible may contribute on whatever item is being discussed.

We will have the Green Paper on Education tomorrow. The Minister will open the debate at 10.30 a.m. I will be suggesting 15 minutes for the main spokespersons and ten minutes for speakers with the Minister coming back to this House after Question Time in the Dáil. The Minister hopes to be here between 4 p.m. and 4.15 p.m. and we will sit until 5 p.m. That is a suggestion. If the House feels that we need longer, that is open for consideration. I would like to see as many people as possible contributing to that debate because there is a lot of interest in it.

I would like to inform Senator Neville that Motion No. 41 will be taken in the near future.

On the Order of Business there are two amendments. Amendment No. 1 is in the name of Senator Norris, and I propose to deal with that first. The amendment is: "That item 16, motion 35, be inserted before item 1".

Amendment put.
The Seanad divided: Tá, 22; Níl, 28.

  • Cosgrave, Liam.
  • Costello, Joe.
  • Doyle, Avril.
  • Harte, John.
  • Hourigan, Richard V.
  • Jackman, Mary.
  • McDonald, Charlie.
  • McMahon, Larry.
  • Manning, Maurice.
  • Murphy, John A.
  • Naughten, Liam.
  • Neville, Daniel.
  • Norris, David.
  • Ó Foighil, Pól.
  • O'Reilly, Joe.
  • O'Toole, Joe.
  • Raftery, Tom.
  • Ross, Shane P.N.
  • Ryan, Brendan.
  • Ryan, John.
  • Staunton, Myles.
  • Upton, Pat.

Níl

  • Bennett, Olga.
  • Bohan, Eddie.
  • Byrne, Hugh.
  • Cassidy, Donie.
  • Conroy, Richard.
  • Cullen, Martin.
  • Dardis, John.
  • Doherty, Sean.
  • Farrell, Willie.
  • Foley, Denis.
  • Haughey, Seán F.
  • Honan, Tras.
  • O'Keeffe, Batt.
  • Ormonde, Donal.
  • Hussey, Thomas.
  • Keogh, Helen.
  • Kiely, Rory.
  • Lanigan, Michael.
  • Lydon, Don.
  • McCarthy, Seán.
  • McKenna, Tony.
  • Mooney, Paschal.
  • Mullooly, Brian.
  • O'Brien, Francis.
  • Ó Cuív, Éamon.
  • O'Donovan, Denis A.
  • Ryan, Eoin David.
  • Wright, G.V.
Tellers: Tá, Senators Norris and B. Ryan; Níl, Senators E. Ryan and Haughey.
Amendment declared lost.

There is a second amendment in the name of Senator Costello: "That item 16, motion 46, be inserted before item 1".

Amendment put.
The Seanad divided: Tá, 21; Níl, 29.

  • Cosgrave, Liam.
  • Costello, Joe.
  • Doyle, Avril.
  • Harte, John.
  • Hourigan, Richard V.
  • Jackman, Mary.
  • McDonald, Charlie.
  • McMahon, Larry.
  • Manning, Maurice.
  • Naughten, Liam.
  • Neville, Daniel.
  • Norris, David.
  • Ó Foighil, Pól.
  • O'Reilly, Joe.
  • O'Toole, Joe.
  • Raftery, Tom.
  • Ross, Shane P.N.
  • Ryan, Brendan.
  • Ryan, John.
  • Staunton, Myles.
  • Upton, Pat.

Níl

  • Bennett, Olga.
  • Bohan, Eddie.
  • Byrne, Hugh.
  • Cassidy, Donie.
  • Conroy, Richard.
  • Cullen, Martin.
  • Dardis, John.
  • Doherty, Sean.
  • Farrell, Willie.
  • Foley, Denis.
  • Haughey, Seán F.
  • Honan, Tras.
  • Hussey, Thomas.
  • Keogh, Helen.
  • Kiely, Rory.
  • Lanigan, Michael.
  • Lydon, Don.
  • McCarthy, Seán.
  • McKenna Tony.
  • Mooney, Paschal.
  • Mullooly, Brian.
  • Murphy, John A.
  • O'Brien, Francis.
  • Ó Cuív, Éamon.
  • O'Donovan, Denis A.
  • O'Keeffe, Batt.
  • Ormonde, Donal.
  • Ryan, Eoin David.
  • Wright, G.V.
Tellers: Tá, Senators Upton and Costello; Níl, Senators E. Ryan and Haughey.
Amendment declared lost.
Order of Business agreed to.
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