Roads Bill, 1991: Second Stage (Resumed).

Question again proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

Mr. Doyle

The Bill before the House will have the effect of putting the National Roads Authority on a statutory footing. The Authority will have overall responsibility for planning, supervision, improvement and maintenance of our network of national roads and motorways. The local authorities will retain responsibility for the national roads. They will normally be relied upon to prepare road design and maintenance programmes and to enter into road network contracts. The Authority would have power to carry out these functions themselves should they consider this to be more convenient, expeditious, effective or economical.

The Bill requires the proposed Authority to prepare at regular intervals a road plan for the development of the network of national roads. This would be subject to public consultation in a process similar to that followed by local authorities in the preparation of their draft development plans. While it appears that the Minister retains overall responsibility for the roads policy, the Authority will displace the rôle of local authorities and the Department of the Environment in relation to road construction, design and maintenance. It appears the Minister and his Department are no longer anxious to be involved in the day to day supervision of their works programme on national roads. They are anxious that the national road authority take over this rôle. The Bill will give substantial powers to enable them to get on with the task of overseeing and co-ordinating the development of our national roads programme.

If we are to have an economic recovery we must make every effort to reduce transport costs significantly. Manufacturers, especially those exporting, suffer great disadvantages compared with our counterparts in EC countries. Transport costs are a significant factor affecting the competitiveness of industry at domestic and international level. It is estimated transport costs for Irish exporters to mainland Europe account for 9 per cent of export sales value, approximately twice the cost incurred by traders on mainland Europe. The completion of the internal market and the opening of the Channel Tunnel require that a transport system linking Ireland with the rest of the Community be competitive and sufficient to facilitate the expansion of trade. Road improvements and better traffic management would contribute to lowering transport costs by possibly as much as 20 per cent, thereby reducing the overall cost and making firms more competitive.

If we are to halt the rise in unemployment by creating at least 20,000 new jobs per year we must look to the manufacturing industry to provide many of these jobs. Industry depends to a predominant extent on the road network for delivery of raw materials, the carriage of goods for export to ports and airports and the distribution of products to wholesale and retail outlets in the domestic market. A poor national road network increases the cost of our exports. These factors cannot be under-estimated in view of the fact that 70 per cent of our net output is exported. Poor roads act as a disincentive to foreign industrialists who are considering Ireland as a location for investment.

Farmers also depend on roads to get their produce to the marketplace or processing centre and they too need a good national road network. Safe, fast and comfortable travel is essential for tourists travelling from main ports and airports to the principal tourist areas. The improvement of the road network is a vital element in increasing our tourism potential and I have no doubt that an improved road network will yield an immediate and significant return.

Job creation in the road construction industry is high, in terms of direct and indirect employment. Approximately £1 million is spent for 34 people employed in construction and 50 people employed in improvements. However, the aim of our road development programme is not direct employment creation; it is directed towards other policy measures which create employment in industry, agriculture and tourism.

The new National Roads Authority will be successful only if it is provided with the necessary finance. With the restriction on the public capital programme, every effort must be made to obtain EC funding and to attract private funding for the design and construction of our roads. If money cannot be raised through the public capital programme, I suggest we make greater efforts to attract private sector participation to finance the purchase and construction of roads.

I have always advocated that the National Roads Authority should be established to own, develop and maintain the national primary routes. This Authority should be funded partly by the State and partly by private enterprise. This has been common practice on the Continent, especially in Italy and Spain, for many years. It has also been recommended in the recent report by the Dublin Transport Initiative. There are many excellent toll roads in Italy.

I have no difficulty with the principle of putting a toll on national roads, especially when money has been invested by the private sector. A good example of this is the East Link and West Link bridges which the National Toll Roads built in the county and city of Dublin. The East Link bridge could not have been built by Dublin Corporation because they could not afford it. This toll bridge is not only a source of revenue for national toll roads, but it is also a source of revenue for both Dublin Corporation and the Dublin Port and Docks Board. More importantly, it is a source of revenue for local communities in Ringsend and East Wall.

I note with disappointment that the Bill proposes to remove from local authorities the function of applying tolls and to give it to National Toll Roads. When tolls are placed on national roads I hope the local authority will benefit financially. This would help them to overcome their present financial difficulties as it would be a means of earning extra revenue.

I wish to comment on the inner port relief route or the eastern bypass. Dublin Corporation commissioned a feasibility study on this route which cost the taxpayer between £500,000 and £1 million; this study was financed by the Department of the Environment. However, before the feasibility study was made available to the public, the Minister for the Environment took the eastern bypass out of the national road network on 10 November 1992. That money was wasted because the eastern by-pass was taken out of the national roads network. The report was published about two months ago and to me the proposals were acceptable. I regret that this matter cannot be considered now in view of the Minister's decision. Perhaps he could give his reasons for what he has done. In a press release he said that due to studies being undertaken by the Dublin Transport Initiative and the cost factor, this road was not necessary. It would have been more reasonable if he had waited until the Ove Arup report was available.

There are many groups — approximately 180 — in this country, at city council and county council level, who have responsibility for roads. This Bill will bring them under one umbrella and ensure a better road service and facilities for manufacturers, farmers, tourists and people who use the roads. An improved road network is important for the economic life of our country. I am pleased to note that in the greater Dublin area a substantial improvement has been made to the roads over the last number of years. I hope that progress in this area will continue when this Bill becomes law.

Mr. Farrell

Ba mhaith liom fáilte a chur roimh an t-Aire Stáit go dtí an Teach seo tráthnóna inniú.

I welcome this Bill. Senator Doyle said that a good road network was important for the industrial and economic life of this country. It is also important for the west. The west has always been regarded as far from Dublin but the reason for this is our road network. I can go to Belfast from my home in less than three hours without exceeding the speed limit. However, even if I exceed the speed limit it could take three and a half hours to get to Dublin because of poor road conditions. A person can travel reasonably fast to Mullingar. However from Mullingar——

Mr. Belton

It is difficult at the moment.

Mr. Farrell

There will be a bottleneck at Mullingar until a by-pass is built. I cannot understand why the road from Dublin to Lucan and Leixlip was not improved years ago. As the Minister said, priority has been given to health, education and other services at the expense of roads.

I would like the National Roads Authority to consider certain matters. Roads were not improved in the past because once a local authority planned a road development, a departmental official would reject the plans. This has happened in my town where the local authority wanted to construct a roundabout, but the engineering section of the Department of the Environment said it was not necessary. Yet this junction is a death-trap. We are now going to spend more money because at last the Department has admitted that a roundabout should have been constructed. This nonsense has continued down the years. I believe the local authority engineering staff have the same qualifications and more experience as the engineering staff in the Department. However, everything must be controlled by central government. There is no regard for the expertise and experience in local authorities. I hope this duplication will not be repeated with the National Roads Authority.

County councils carrying out work must pay VAT while a contractor on contract receives a refund of VAT. Local authorities do not qualify for such a refund. The engineering section should be separate from the county council with authority to tender for contracts. County councillors are often asked to have roads repaired by people who are willing to pay for the repairs. The county council cannot do this. When a road needs to be repaired both the private sector and the engineering section of the local authority should be able to tender for the contract. The lowest tender should be awarded the contract. That would eliminate the attitude that county councils do not carry out work quickly and efficiently. County councils are as efficient as private contractors. However, under the present system county councils must pay VAT but they should be entitled to claim a refund in the same way as private contractors. We should level the playing field and give them a fair crack of the whip.

With reference to land acquisition a county council must go through the compulsory acquisition process if an individual refuses to sell land. Work already begun on a road may have to be interrupted. The system in England and Northern Ireland in relation to the construction of roads is different. There, an individual may be obliged to defer going to arbitration until after the road has been completed. Problems will continue until such a system is introduced in this country.

My constituency faces problems in relation to the construction of a bypass through the Curlew Mountains. It is proposed to build a bridge across a section of Lough Arrow. However, some people have objected to this proposal because they believe it will interfere with fish stocks. Although these objectors represent only a section of the community and the county council represents the entire community, the law of our land seems to support sectional interests.

It seems that the legal system is biased against local authorities. The legal profession encourages people to go to court. They operate on a "no foal no fee" system which is grossly unfair. Objectors do not need to have money to bring a case; solicitors always seem to get paid. I know of a case where a local authority won, yet it had to pay costs. Claim-taking against local authorities is a lucrative business. The National Roads Authority must address this situation if we are to develop our road network.

Many people living in the north-west have difficulty transporting goods to Dublin. A link road from the west to Waterford is required. If one wishes to travel on a good road one must travel to Dublin and from there to Waterford. This is ridiculous. How can tourism in the west compete given the condition of the existing road network?

We must emphasise to the National Roads Authority the importance of constructing new roads to link the west with the rest of Ireland. There is no point saying to people in the west that they are in a cul-de-sac and must make their own way out of it. That is not good enough. I hope the National Roads Authority will have sufficient power to make decisions on these matters.

National roads represent under 6 per cent of the total road mileage, but account for about 37 per cent of total road traffic. This 6 per cent is important because it represents the main arteries of our road network. The Minister intends to abolish certain road categories so that we will now have three categories: national, regional and local. The Minister in his speech said the classification of public roads is being simplified in section 13 and will replace all the existing classes such as trunk and link roads, main and county roads.

More money is required for regional and local roads. Regional and local roads are important because all traffic on national primary routes starts out on such roads. Therefore, it is not sufficient to say that the Sligo to Dublin road is a good one. Industries located along regional or county roads have difficulty transporting goods to national primary roads because of poor county roads conditions. Industries need good roads in order to transport their products efficiently. Similarly, if people are to remain in remote parts of the country we must have a good road network. One can acquire a septic tank for sewage and bore a well for water but a road cannot be constructed if the local authority does not have adequate funding.

Many roads are of a reasonable standard but some have not been resurfaced for over 20 years. Surface dressing of roads is a waste of time because some roads are badly worn. I am glad the Minister has classified roads into three categories. However, will there be one snag? I am in favour of building and development in rural areas. Nevertheless, it is almost impossible to get planning permission for direct access onto any road other than a county road. Will we be able to get planning permission for direct access onto a regional road? It is important that we do. Unless we can build small factories and houses along regional roads we will not be able to keep the population in rural areas. We will have a lovely environment and a beautiful place to live but, unfortunately, we will not have the same freedom to act as the birds in the air — they can build their nests where they like but people will not be allowed to build a home where they like.

Farmers have less power and authority over their land today than when they were tenant farmers. We have gone back to that stage. If the children of a farming family wish to build houses on the farm so as to be near their family — I have experience of a number of section 4 applications related to this some of which were stopped by An Taisce — our planning laws do not allow this. I do not think that is right. I ask the Minister to look carefully at this matter and to take action if need be. I am not talking about big housing developments to which I am opposed. I am strongly family-oriented. I believe that if a farmer wants to give his children a site on his own farm to build a house he should at least be entitled to do that. At present he is not permitted to do this.

When one applies for permission to build three or four houses on a county road, the planning authority will refuse on the basis that the road is already too narrow, it is not capable of carrying more traffic and, therefore, another house would be a traffic hazard. Planning permission is becoming a serious problem in rural Ireland. It militates against developing the family farm and keeping the extended family together. Something traditional and good in our society is being ruled out. We are forcing people into concrete jungles that have been a failure in every town and city in which they were built.

Acting Chairman (Ms Kelly)

Senator, please deal with the roads.

Mr. Farrell

I am not diverting from roads but we cannot get planning permission for houses on these roads. What point is there in having roads if people cannot live along them? I ask that these problems and irregularities be dealt with in this Bill. It is important that people have planning permission to build on county roads and regional roads. I do not think houses should have entrances onto national primary roads. That would be wrong. Where there is a small group of houses there should be a service road as a means of linking it to the main road. If something is not done the people of the west will be badly affected. Provision must be made for people to build. It is important that this issue is dealt with in this Bill because if this kind of provision is not made now it will never be made.

County development plans should try and ensure that the family farm — I am not talking about housing developments — is retained and maintained in the traditional way, and that the extended family arrangement is continued, albeit in a somewhat different way than in the past. In the past the extended family lived in one house. However if they wish to build two or three houses and be close to one another this legislation should not prevent them from doing so.

The Minister in his speech said:

The Authority will have power to issue directions to local authorities to carry out certain specified functions in relation to the construction, improvement and maintenance of national roads and will be able to carry out the function itself in the unlikely event that a local authority fails or refuses to comply with such a direction.

There is a danger here of duplication of authority, a duplication that has dogged this country for many years with Government Departments dictating to local authorities. Road maintenance should be carried out on a contract basis. If a road is to be maintained county councils should be able to tender for the contract in the same way as private contractors. If their tender is at a competitive price and they are awarded the contract, and if they carry out the contract properly and on time this duplication would not occur.

I am glad to see that the local authorities will be relied upon to do the design work. County councils have good design teams who are long established and who know the job and the local terrain. It is important that they are allowed to continue doing the design work. Many local authorities have road designs lying on shelves for many years as they did not get the funding or the means necessary to do the work. I am glad to see that their wealth of experience is going to be used.

The Minister also said in his speech:

While I will retain some quasi-judicial powers such as the approval of compulsory purchase orders on motorway schemes, neither I nor my Department will have any involvement in the day to day management of the national road development programme. This work is being transferred in its entirety to the Authority. State grants for national roads will be paid as a global amount by my Department to the Authority, which will be completely responsible for the allocation of finance to individual projects.

It is important to find a way of getting on with the job rather than waiting for the CPO. The CPO procedure takes too long, sometimes up to three years. There must be some way of presenting a road plan and indicating to the people concerned the price which will be paid for their land. If they are not satisfied they can have a valuation carried out privately and go to arbitration. This could be done while the work is being carried out rather than have expensive machines and manpower standing idle or, as happens in many cases, transferred to other jobs. The costs involved in the transfer of machinery and of leaving road projects unfinished are great. We have to speed up the CPO system. There must be some better way of doing it. Road projects could be carried out more quickly if the plans were made public and construction then proceeded; if there were objections to the project these could be dealt with in arbitration or in court while the construction was taking place.

The Minister in his speech said:

A key area of potential disputes between the NRA and local authorities is on road alignments and with this in mind the Bill was amended to give the elected members of the local authority a right in section 22 to make their views known to the NRA where they have objections to a particular road alignment.

I welcome that but there should be a time limit on objections. We cannot afford to allow roadworks to be held up or be the subject of disputes for long periods. The problems and disputes have to be resolved and the road has to be built. We should heed the old adage: "If you want to make omelettes you have to break eggs." I think we should break the eggs, so to speak, in the beginning and get on with the work.

The time set aside to hear objections should be limited. Local authorities should hold special meetings to enable objectors to put their case. However, if problems cannot be resolved at these meetings, a way should be found to ensure that work on roads will be carried out quickly. Delays, which result in machinery not being used, waste both time and money. I welcome the Bill, it is a very good one and, if it does what is intended, it will speed up road development. Money should be spent on roads on a pro-rata basis, a proportion of the money spent on national primary routes should be used to upgrade regional and local roads. It is important that more money is made available for road development. Each local authority should have a contracts section. In County Sligo a contract for a sewerage scheme was put out to tender. The members of the county council insisted that the council itself bid for the contract to see how our bid would compare with those of private companies. The price quoted by the council was cheaper and the work was carried out more quickly.

People should realise that local authority members are not dossers. They do good work in very difficult situations. First, they are not their own bosses, they have to consult with partners. Second, they do not get VAT rebates. The Minister should enable local authorities to compete on an even playing pitch with private enterprise. We would then have better local and regional roads and work to improve our national primary routes would be more quickly completed.

Mr. Sherlock

I hate to be the one to sound a discordant note but I am sure that Senator Farrell has travelled widely in recent months and has seen the conditions of our regional and county roads, and the cul-de-sac roads as well. This Roads Bill is one of the most undemocratic measures ever to come before the Oireachtas because it proposes the establishment of an unelected National Roads Authority which will be able to override the elected members of local authorities and ignore county development plans in the design and construction of roads. It will not even have to apply for planning permission.

The Bill essentially proposes to establish a two-tier roads system. One tier will consist of national roads which will be well financed as they qualify for 75 per cent grant aid from EC funds and will be under the control of the National Roads Authority. Below this tier will be a very poorly resourced network of non-national roads which will be poorly maintained due to inadequate financing by local authorities. This year there was an 8 per cent reduction in the block grant to local authorities to maintain county and regional roads. This reduction is appalling because year after year the condition of our roads is deteriorating and to restore it to its level of five years ago would require a great deal of expenditure.

I contend that what is now required is a national transport authority rather than a National Roads Authority because of the greater numbers of people now using Iarnród Éireann. I had a very bad experience with that company today. I travelled by train this morning from Mallow to Dublin. The train was due to depart at 9 a.m. and arrive in Dublin at 11 a.m. However, it did not reach Dublin until 12.15 p.m. It was crowded because many people were travelling to Dublin for a match. Iarnród Éireann made no provision for the extra numbers travelling. There is a need for a transport authority to co-ordinate the planning of the road and rail network. I am very critical of Iarnród Éireann for its management of rail services, especially at a time when greater numbers of people are travelling by rail. People who travel from Dublin to Cork and vice versa are also very critical of the company.

Mr. Belton

It happens with the Sligo train all the time.

Mr. Sherlock

Nobody seems to be doing anything to control the speed of heavy vehicles. The carnage on our national, primary and secondary roads, which resulted in 500 deaths last year, is appalling. An example of power being transferred from local authorities to the National Roads Authority can be seen in the case of Rathcormac, County Cork, on the Cork-Dublin road — I know I am being parochial in giving this example. Parents of children attending the national school there have pleaded with the local authority to erect traffic lights to protect their children. This has been done in other towns nearer to Dublin. The reluctance to respond to the will of the local authority leads me to suspect that the National Roads Authority already has some influence and can decide whether the town may have traffic lights. I consider this to be a hare-brained idea because traffic lights would ensure that traffic would have to slow down. What is being proposed is that power be taken from local authorities and transferred to this National Roads Authority. This would further diminish the role of local authorities.

Great work is being done on national primary and secondary roads, a large amount of money has been spent to bring them up to a high standard. What surprises me is that after a few years, improvements often have to be carried out at a very high cost, not just to local authorities but also to central government. This happened in the case of the Cork-Dublin and Fermoy-Mitchelstown roads. Members of local authorities can see and understand the needs of people in their areas and they try to respond to these needs.

There are other features of this Bill which I find hard to interpret. Does section 13 extend to local authorities the power to prohibit temporary dwellings, unauthorised trading vehicles and unauthorised signs and advertising hoardings on main arterial roads? If, under section 71, power is given to the roads authority to prohibit temporary dwellings, unauthorised advertising hoardings and trading by unauthorised vehicles on national primary and secondary roads, what power has the local authority to enforce the law in these matters?

The Bill addresses the problem of dangerous trees. Over a number of years I have asked the local authority to deal with dangerous trees growing beside roads. Under a very old statute the local authority has the power to deal with dangerous trees but it must be proved that the trees are damaging the surface of the road. In legislating for the problem of dangerous trees, has the local authority responsibility for regional roads or county roads? That point is important because people tend to ignore the local authority.

Section 13 states:

Where a person does anything in contravention of paragraph (a), a road authority may remove any defacement, repair any damage, fill in any excavation, remove any material, thing, dung or urine or remove or reduce any hazard, potential hazard, obstruction or interference and may recover from such person, as a simple contract debt in any court of competent jurisdiction, any costs reasonably incurred by it.

That provides in law for such situations but how will it be implemented?

A serious situation arises on county and regional roads in the months of December, January and this year in February, when heavy articulated vehicles create a hazard for other road users. The local authorities seem to be powerless in the matter. Does this legislation give power to the local authority to warn the person who is creating this hazard? The carnage on our roads can, to some extent, be attributed to such hazards.

I am concerned that we do not enforce the law on our roads. Heavy vehicles travelling at 70 miles an hour are a danger to other road users and demonstrate the necessity for a national roads safety authority to make people conscious of the need to exercise safety on our roads.

I oppose sections of this Bill because they give so much power to a number of people, so far unnamed, to tell the local authority what to do. The members of the authority will have to declare their interests but that does not prevent them from having related interests. The procurement of supplies will be controlled by a few people. Meanwhile, the power of the local authority is being eroded.

Who will have the power to reclassify roads? Will the Authority reclassify them? There is not one mile of national primary route in the west Cork area, and in north Cork there are link roads to the main arterial roads. What effort will be made to redistribute finance to improve our regional and county road network? The national primary and secondary roads system is quite good. In my recent travels around the country I noticed bad road conditions in other counties and Cork does not fare too badly in comparison with them. The question is, does this Bill provide for a better redistribution of finance for regional and county roads?

Mr. Townsend

The two main purposes of this Bill are to establish a National Roads Authority, to oversee the development of our national roads, and to strengthen the law in relation to our public roads.

The present system has badly served County Carlow and I hope the new Authority will approach that county's road problems in a different manner. Carlow is an inland county, it does not have an airport and it depends totally on its road network. There have been improvements in County Carlow to the national primary route, the N9, but the section of the road from the Kildare boundary to Kilcullen is in a bad condition. Carlow must have a properly maintained road to Dublin. I hope the new Authority will deal with the problem of different road conditions in the counties through which the road is routed. There is the same problem with the national primary road to Waterford port. The Carlow section of the road is maintained to a reasonable standard but its condition deteriorates in County Kilkenny. It is important that the road in Kilkenny be upgraded and an independent Authority could secure that objective.

In Carlow we have the same problem with the national secondary road, the N80. The Carlow section of that road is in urgent need of upgrading; there is a bad stretch of road between Kilbride and Bunclody but the Wexford section of the road is fine. This is completely unsatisfactory as far as Carlow is concerned and the major problem is that Carlow has not been allocated sufficient funds to improve that road. An authority with overall powers could examine such problems.

Carlow town during the beet and grain seasons becomes completely congested with traffic. A bridge should be constructed over the river Barrow in a joint operation between Carlow and Laois County Councils. I believe everything is ready, awaiting the Minister's signature to allow the work proceed. I do not know what is delaying the Minister, perhaps he does not have a pen. I hope he will attend to that in the near future.

I have mixed feelings about this new roads Authority. It could be very good or very bad depending on how it operates. First, the Authority will need to devise a fairer system of allocating funds. If the Authority decides to allocate funds from a national perspective it could do a very good job. However, if it tries to clean the slate by making a name for itself on a kind of ego trip it could do much harm.

We have over the last 15 years spent many millions of pounds upgrading a road network. This work has yet to be completed in Carlow and in many other counties. That plan is only partially completed. I am afraid this new Authority might begin a new plan. A pressure group is currently seeking the construction of a motorway to the west and south-west through Sligo, Limerick to Waterford port. If this happens before current works are completed it will be a wilful waste of the resources spent on other roads over the years and will make many of those roads obsolete. Roads are unfinished in some counties. Such a motorway would increase the isolation of places like Carlow. I hope the NRA will address the situation correctly.

When the Minister spoke on roads in the Seanad about two weeks ago I was pleased to hear him say that the restrictions on roadside trading would not apply to the seasonal sale of fruit and vegetables. The roadside sale of fruit and vegetables is part of the tourist industry in the south-east and people plan their visits to the region to coincide with the fruit season. If banned it would give the edge over local producers to people importing fruit from South Africa and elsewhere.

I would like a guarantee from the new roads Authority that it would concentrate its funding in the short term on the urgent problem of strengthening the national primary road, the N9 which runs between Dublin, Carlow, Kilkenny and Waterford and the national secondary road, the N80, between Portlaoise, Carlow, Enniscorthy and Rosslare. I would wholeheartedly welcome the Authority if it gave that undertaking. I am not talking about long stretches of roads to be strengthened. On the N9 there is approximately eight miles still unfinished in County Carlow and 18 miles in County Kilkenny. In the case of the N80 to Rosslare there is a total of only 16 miles to be completed between Carlow and Wexford. I ask that these roads be completed.

The county roads, because of decreased funding over recent years have deteriorated at a rapid rate. Most rural areas have roads only, there are no footpaths or lights. I would like to see money spent on national and county roads. I hope this new Authority will do that.

Mr. Belton

I welcome the opportunity to speak on this Bill. One of the most pressing problems for local authorities, especially in rural counties, such as Longford County Council, is the disastrous state of county roads. It has now become very boring, especially perhaps for the Minister for the Environment, to hear about county roads. People do not want to hear more about potholes.

In most parts of Ireland, especially in urban areas it would not be acceptable to travel on such roads every day or to see children waiting on flooded potholed roads. However, in rural Ireland people are expected to tolerate those conditions while paying car and other taxes. This is rural development and agri-tourism of which we have heard so much. This is what is done to save the west, the midlands and other parts of Ireland. The first step in developing an under-developed country is always road construction.

In latter years successive Governments have done away with the county roads system. Unless this Government faces up to that reality, within a few years there will be no county road system. The county roads in most parts of County Longford are worse now than they were 30 years ago. Developments in rural areas in the last ten or 15 years have relied on the county road system. In forestry, for example, timber must be transported on the county roads system initially. Was there any planning or preparation for this? Was extra funding made available to local authorities to improve the roads so they could cope with the extra traffic? No funds were made available for the county roads system.

Over the years, increasing development in agriculture has led to bigger machinery requiring a more efficient, up-to-date system for county roads, but nothing was done. In north Longford, there are many lakes which attract fishermen and tourists and in south Longford, we have the River Shannon, the Inny and other amenities but people cannot travel to these areas in comfort because of the state of the roads. Why should they damage their cars? At the same time, the Ministers of the day are talking about bringing tourism to rural areas. From where will these people come? The sky? It certainly will not be by way of our county road system. If any Minister is serious about tackling this problem he must direct funding to the county roads system.

I welcome certain sections of this Bill, including the provision concerning trees overhanging roads. I welcome this as such trees have caused many accidents, including fatal accidents, over the years.

I also welcome the development of the main road through my county, including the Longford by-pass, and the Mullingar by-pass.

The Minister should make sure that Structural Funds are directed towards county roads. Over the years, many members of local authorities and the general public have been amazed that EC funding has not been provided for county roads. Various Ministers have told us that this money is available only for our national primary roads. Now is the opportunity to change this, and I would be interested to hear what the Minister has to say on the matter.

If we want to develop tourism, industry and agriculture and have roads of a reasonable standard, adequate funding must be made available. Ten years ago, double the amount of money was spent on the county roads system in Longford than is spent today, yet the weight of traffic has probably doubled. That is a "catch 22" all the members of local authorities find themselves in. It is a nightmare. When they go to a public function they are asked what they are doing about the roads in their area, but what can they do? They cannot get the necessary funds. Car tax collected within the county is sent directly to central funds. If any Minister was serious about improving the county roads system, he would tell each county council to hold this money for two to three years and then spend it on the county roads.

There is one road I would like to bring to the attention of the Minister — the Mullingar-Ballymahon-Lanesboro-Roscommon road. I would like to see that road upgraded under the new Authority because at present it is extremely dangerous. Between Ballymahon and Lanesboro, it passes through Bord na Móna works and many accidents have occurred on that stretch of road. There is a great deal of heavy traffic on this narrow winding road and a large amount of extra funding is needed to widen it.

Mr. R. Kiely

I congratulate the Minister on his appointment. He performed in his previous portfolio very successfully and I am sure he will be equally successful in this one.

I welcome the Bill because it will lead to a new national roads policy and establish a National Roads Authority that will be responsible fo the development and administration of our national and secondary roads network. Few will disagree that there is an urgent need to considerably improve the road network, applying consistent standards and adopting a planned approach to road improvements.

One has only to drive a few hundred miles on any national road to observe the large variations in standards between one county and another and the financial abuses in the implementation of road programmes in each local authority area. The non-availability of sufficient funding often inhibits the planning of an efficient road development programme. In the past, it has been held responsible for some justifiable criticism in relation to what is observed as inefficient road construction and improvement programmes.

The vast majority of our national and secondary roads are inadequate, both in terms of capacity and construction, for accommodating the increasing volume of traffic now using the roads daily. From my discussions with Irish international truck drivers, the standards of our roads lag far behind those in mainland Europe. If you go there, you will definitely notice the difference. In comparison with our roads, their infrastructure is more up to date. As a nation we have successfully tackled other infrastructural deficiencies, for example, in the telecommunications area. These developments have been favourably commented on by industrialists from abroad and by people who have invested in our country who appreciate the advances that have been made. We benefit to some extent in this area because of the delay in starting an overall improvement programme but improvements to our road system are overdue.

The National Roads Authority will have a general duty to provide a safe and efficient network of national roads. It will have overall responsibility for planning and supervising the construction, improvement and maintenance of these roads. The Bill assigns the Authority a number of important specific functions: it will be responsible for preparing medium-term plans for the development of national roads, an operational programme for peripherality, a system of road designs and a maintenance programme. Traffic signs are also provided for and these are most important, especially for the tourist industry. Some counties are very good at providing traffic signs.

It may not be appropriate to this debate but, in respect of the tourist industry, it is welcome that the names of rivers are signposted and identified on roads. It is important that there is adequate signposting of towns to ensure that people using our roads are not sent miles out of their way to find a place. It is not good for the image of our country or our tourist industry that people are given roundabout ways to find places. The Authority will also be responsible for the construction, improvement and maintenance of national roads, it will decide on the allocation and payment of grants and promote the case for EC assistance for roads.

Many development plans for roads have been produced. I recall speaking here in the late 1970s when a road development plan for the 1980s was being considered. There were many plans at that time. For example, it was envisaged that the proposed timescale for completion of the Croom by-pass was 1985-86. There is much improvement but I noticed in another operational road development plan for 1989-93 that the construction period for the Croom by-pass was scheduled for 1993-94. Rathkeale by-pass was included in that programme and the construction period was 1991-93 and I am delighted that it was completed on time. I was at the official opening recently and the road is a wonderful success. The work done on the Rathkeale by-pass has been commented on by people from other counties and from overseas who travel that road. I am sure my namesake, Senator Dan Kiely from Kerry, will agree with me.

Improvements to the Mallow to Cork road were also included in the road development plan for the 1980s and the projected timescale was 1989-95. There has been a great improvement in the condition of the road and it was absolutely necessary. I understand from the operational road development plan for 1989-93 that the Cork-Mallow Stage 2 section will be completed by 1994. I am confident it will be completed on time and this will be another welcome development for which I compliment the Minister and the Department.

Newbridge by-pass was also mentioned in the road development plan for the 1980s. It is being constructed now and I am sure from observing its progress on my way to Seanad Éireann that it will be opened shortly. Great work is being done and it must be commended.

Progress is being made to improve our national primary routes, especially for the volume of traffic that will have to be carried but there is still much work to be done. The Patrickswell to Limerick road, and other towns need to be by-passed to ensure that people, especially business people and those in the export business, can travel from place to place in the minimum of time and without undue delay.

There was also mention of county roads. It is inevitable in any debate on roads that reference will be made to roads other than national primary routes which represent only 16 per cent of the total network. The balance of approximately 84 per cent is made up of county roads. Local authorities have responsibility for these roads. Sufficient funds are not being made available by the Government and were not made available by previous Governments.

County roads serve rural communities and the agricultural industry and they are used on a daily basis by children going to school and by commercial vehicles that service the agricultural industry. There are more commercial vehicles serving that sector than there were 20 or 30 years ago when it was much easier to maintain county roads. Over the years, local authorities have invested considerable funds in constructing and maintaining county roads but the condition of these roads has been allowed to deteriorate. It is an area that will have to be addressed as a matter of great urgency.

Senator Townsend and Senator Belton referred to the condition of these roads, and Senator Gallagher spoke previously about the potholes in Cavan. There is high unemployment in the country and it would be more economical if attention was given to county roads rather than neglecting them as at present.

Water remaining on a road causes many problems, including potholes. Councils made a bad decision by dispensing with workers who opened water tables and ensured that water was kept off roads. In this era of unemployment workmen should be paying attention to the small details and ensuring that water is kept off roads. Heavy traffic passing through water on roads deteriorates the condition of roads. It would not cost much more than what people are receiving on social welfare to employ them to deal with work on the roads.

In my own parish a number of years ago there were three or four local men working on the roads and now there is none. Whether it is an engineer or an ordinary road worker, the nearest men working on the roads near me live eight miles away. It is very difficult to get minor repairs carried out and eventually there are major problems that have to be dealt with and they cost of a lot of money.

In 1977 Fianna Fáil came into Government, and former Deputy, Martin O'Donoghue was appointed Minister for Economic Planning and Development. It was a new Department and the Minister of the day said he would reduce the number of people unemployed. He said he would dig holes in the road and fill them up again to ensure there was employment. There would be no need to dig holes in the road today — they are in such bad condition that plenty of employment would be created by repairing them. I appeal to the Minister to bring back the man with the shovel to look after the small road repairs that need to be done.

Mr. Enright

In discussing this legislation it is important that a realistic view is taken in the context of transport in general. We need to examine Government transport policy as it affects people and goods. Roads are the major part of that policy. This Bill to a considerable extent approaches the overall plan I have in mind.

There are many commendable points in this Bill but I have deep reservations about parts of it and I am concerned about aspects of Irish transport that this Bill by its nature cannot touch. Government policy in the context of this Bill should encompass a close examination of our rail transport system. There is no rail service in some areas, particularly the north-eastern part of this country.

The Minister should use his influence at Government and Cabinet levels to ensure that the existing national rail network is maintained. He may say that is not part of his brief, that it is a matter for another Government Department, and to some extent that is true, however, our roads are adversely affected by heavy transport vehicles delivering goods which could be carried by rail. It is essential that maintenance of our rail network is looked at in a critical manner with a view to improving it.

There is severe traffic congestion in our cities. Many of our rail lines and rail stations have been closed. Our roads cannot cope with the heavy traffic. We should encourage people to travel by rail to reduce the traffic on our roads. The Bill before us is not a rail Bill but the Minister should consider rail travel in the context of an overall policy decision by the Government.

I want to deal with the problem of temporary dwellings on national roads which is approaching crisis proportions. Huge convoys of caravans appear in an area and cause serious problems. We have experienced this problem in Edenderry and Tullamore. Many of these people are involved in lucrative businesses. They come into a town and set up in direct competition to traders who are paying taxes and overheads. Many of these people lay out their wares in front of business premises and conduct their business there. Another factor is that many caravans and dealers park for a long time in one area. Refuse accumulates and is dumped in local drains and rivers or left on the side of the road. This can lead to a serious health hazard and to problems in society. Under this Bill, the Minister does not have power to look at this area, but as it is mentioned in the Bill, I think we should examine it.

I have one proposal in regard to temporary dwellings which I ask the Minister to take on board. Each local authority records details of every local authority and private house in its area. There should be a compulsory registration system for caravans and mobile homes. A person in a caravan should not be entitled to travel around the country in a cavalier manner and park wherever they like, perhaps causing damage to land. There is no responsibility imposed on the owner or occupier of a caravan or mobile home. This needs to be examined to see how we could regulate the registration of these vehicles.

It is hoped that much of the financing for this particular Bill will come from the European Structural Funds. Self-help is very important, and we should see how we can contribute Irish ingenuity, planning and expertise. We should utilise whatever EC funds are available because, according to the most reliable authorities, this allocation of Structural Funds will be the last of such funds. There is a number of factors to be considered. It is important that we develop a proper national primary and secondary road network to enable people to commute from one city to another and so that goods may be conveyed to air and seaports.

The time has come for a close examination of national speed limits. If the Minister considers it desirable and necessary to spend millions of pounds on national primary and secondary roads, is it realistic to fix the speed limit at 60 miles per hour? The speed limit in most European countries is far in excess of 60 miles per hour. Some cars however, would have difficulty braking at 50 or 60 miles per hour. A speed limit of 60 miles per hour is not realistic for tourists, though there will have to be a lower speed limit for trucks because of their size and the difficulties of overtaking. On national primary and national secondary roads and on dual-carriageways a speed limit of 80-85 miles per hour would be realistic. More time and effort needs to be spent educating people about the rules of the road. It should be explained to people that where there is a hard shoulder the driver should move on to it to give way to a driver overtaking. Many accidents occur when a driver is overtaking.

While it is very difficult to assess the precise costs of road building I understand the cost of constructing one mile of national primary road is in the region of £1.5 million. Reconstructing one mile of bog road would cost about £100,000 and similar work on a county road, £30,000. These are figures I have been furnished with by engineers involved in this type of work. Given these figures, it would be a gross abuse of funds if the major portion of moneys from the European Structural Funds was not spent on local and county roads. It would also be a dereliction of duty to the people of rural Ireland. This may be our last opportunity to use EC funds to improve roads in rural Ireland. Every Member here today is from rural Ireland, or their ancestors were. The bad condition of rural roads demonstrates how serious the situation is.

I read with interest that the former EC Commissioner for Agriculture, Mr. MacSharry, at the time he was relinquishing his authority, stated that it was very desirable that more moneys would be spent on improving county roads. Regrettably, when he had the power to do so he did not do it. Nevertheless, a good idea is a good idea even though Mr. MacSharry did not recognise it until much too late. The Minister has power now, nobody knows how long it will last——

Minister of State at the Department of the Environment (Mr. Browne,

Wexford): A long time, please God.

Mr. Enright

But while the Minister is there, and as he is from a rural constituency he has an important duty to make sure that this opportunity of using Structural Funds to improve our county and local roads is not lost. I see cars being damaged by bad roads, and people whose back injuries are aggravated by the poor condition of roads. I see people travelling to work and children travelling to school who are soaked when splashed by people driving through potholes. It is not good enough. This is our final opportunity and I would ask the Minister to see what he can do about it.

Across the midlands, heavy traffic transporting goods such as timber, briquettes and turf, is doing untold damage to our roads. These roads must be reconstructed, particularly across County Offaly and I hope a major portion of moneys available will be spent on that. Senator Gallagher mentioned how bad the roads were in County Cavan. I have visited Cavan and have seen how bad the roads are there. They have much in common with the roads of County Offaly. There appears to be an overall problem. The roads of County Offaly are seriously defective and of poor quality and I ask the Minister to do something about it.

Fresh air will I hope remain tax free. Water unfortunately is no longer free. One has to pay heavily for it and the poor quality of drinking water available is causing people to turn to Tipperary Water or Ballygowan. That is terribly wrong. Water charges are a reality now, but let us not increase public charges further by means of toll roads. Toll roads should not be introduced. People living in the vicinity of the West-Link toll road are obliged to use it and it is a heavy financial imposition upon them. I travel on it rarely so it is no great problem for me. Local authorities will be consulted about roads but the final decisions rest now with the Department of the Environment and will shortly rest with the National Roads Authority. The Minister will say the National Roads Authority cannot be interfered with as it is an independent body. I have grave reservations about toll roads and in the United Kingdom few toll roads have been retained. Tolls are exacted on a number of motorway bridges in Britain but not on roads there. In the United Kingdom when it was found that some toll roads were not making money tolls were no longer exacted. There are still toll roads in Britain, for example, across the Severn and in other areas. I have many reservations about this matter and I am totally opposed to the further development of toll roads. People's right to travel should not be restricted and they should not be obliged to pay to travel those roads. The long term problem with a number of these roads will be that private people will take over. I have many reservations about that and would oppose it. How will the Minister ensure that penalties are not imposed on people? We are heading in the wrong direction by developing toll roads. I would like that to be clearly understood and I ask the Minister to help out in any way he can.

A considerable amount of EC Structural Funds are spent on the compulsory acquisition of land. I do not know the percentage of money spent on the compulsory acquisition of lands but it is a considerable amount. We need to be realistic and see how we can safeguard the money coming from Europe rather than spending it unwisely on the compulsory purchase of lands.

I ask the Minister to examine how we can improve safety on roads which are being repaired. If he examines the statistics he will see that a high percentage of serious accidents occur while road improvements are being carried out. The worst type of lighting is provided on many of these roads, lights fail to work and tar barrels and gas are left in unsuitable places, the roads are too narrow and the safety barriers are not properly marked. There is a serious obligation on the Department of the Environment and on the Minister to see how this situation can be improved. Many accidents occur because road works commence but are left unfinished indefinitely. I ask the Minister to see how this can be improved.

Our road signs are inadequate. I realised this when travelling around Ireland during the Seanad elections. There are people with a sick sense of humour who turn signposts to point in the opposite direction. I was not in a hurry and could take my time but it does affect people who are unfamiliar with an area and want to get someplace as quickly as possible. I ask the Minister to do his best to prevent people interfering with signposts. People who change around and damage road signs should feel the rigours of the law. That might stop this reprehensible conduct.

I would not like to see power and responsibility taken from the local authorities. If we change the present structure it will lead to more bureaucracy. The existing structures work quite well and an increased financial allocation may be all that is required for work to be carried out. One of the areas one can get people to contribute locally is through the local improvement schemes. Many people are prepared to contribute 10 or 15 per cent towards the improvement, tarring and maintenance of the roads on which they live. Many local councillors and public representatives could organise, as they did with the group water schemes, local improvement schemes, etc., for funds to be collected or they could provide the necessary impetus to get people to help on those schemes. That would be a good idea.

I have seen people in local areas carry out works on the roads. What they have done is illegal and they can be sued and have damages awarded against them for carrying out this work. Nevertheless, in desperation, they tried to improve the roads on which they lived. People are entitled to good roads. Using EC Structural Funds, the Minister should see how he can get people to contribute to road improvement, perhaps a local improvement scheme. There has been a large reduction in the amount of money paid under local improvement schemes over the years and that is why this issue has become so urgent.

This is the first time I have had an opportunity to speak to the Deputy in his capacity as Minister of State. I wish him happiness and success in his portfolio.

Mr. D. Kiely

I welcome the Minister to the House and I wish him well in his job. I am sure a man coming from a rural area will take the views of all Senators into account, particularly with regard to conditions of county roads.

I welcome the Bill. It is high time that a Bill of this kind was introduced. Even though the new National Roads Authority will only be responsible for 6 per cent of total road miles, the money to be expended on these roads will assist the future development of the country. The money will have to be spent carefully. It will be necessary to ensure that we get value for money and that the money is invested properly for the future of our children. There are many examples, of works which have been undertaken by local authorities and have come to a sudden halt.

I am delighted that responsibility for the preparation of strategic medium term plans for the development of national roads will be undertaken by this Authority and that the preparation of road design and maintenance is going to be documented. I have several examples I could outline today. In County Kerry there are only 60 miles of primary roads. Over the last number of years we have developed the road from Killarney to Cork but at the Cork boundary it comes to a sudden end. No work has been undertaken from Macroom to Cork city. These are badly needed to link the two roads. I do not like to see these piecemeal operations where a good road for eight or ten miles turns into a county road, especially when it is supposed to be a primary route. Proper planning must be put in place, and I welcome it with open arms.

I am also delighted that local authorities can play an active part in the new National Roads Authority. They will have the power to tender for work if they are capable of doing it. I have told my local authority it should tender for works of this nature. It has the machinery, the manpower and the expertise. I do not see why it cannot compete with private contractors for this kind of work.

We will have to ensure we get value for money. When the works are in place and in operation, I would like to know who will be responsible for the maintenance and drainage of these primary routes and for the upkeep of the green areas. Will it rest with the local authorities or will there be a central fund which will give a contribution to the local authorities to keep these green areas neat and clean?

I agree with the previous speaker about road traders. Every good job we have done, especially providing a green belt, has ended up as a new halting site. In Kerry last Monday we asked about the new green route around Killarney. To stop itinerants and traders parking on a lovely green belt area, £25,000 was spent to put up boulders and an ugly screen. Some new legislation will have to be introduced sooner rather than later to prevent these people taking the law into their own hands. If any ordinary citizen started that type of trading he would not be there longer than two or three hours; he would be hauled away. There should not be one law for one group, a different law for another. I will be looking at this issue in this new Roads Bill.

Everyone in this House and the Minister also must know the bad condition of our county roads. We would be foolish to say otherwise. The main tranche of funds coming into central Government is for major road networks. That is essential if we are to get our goods from A to B and to get transport moving quickly.

However, tourists must also be considered. There is a lot of tourism in my county. In the last number of years, our tourist revenue has outstripped agriculture revenue for the first time since the foundation of the State and it is the major growth area in our county for the foreseeable future. We are working hard to promote our tourist trade but we have grave problems with our county roads. In Kerry there are only 60 miles of primary route but 2,500 miles of county roads. Our share in the county road allocation was cut back by £200,000. It may seem a small amount but to us it is large.

My friend, Senator Enright, mentioned the former Commissioner, Mr. Ray MacSharry. It is a pity he was not the EC Commissioner for the Environment. Agriculture was his portfolio and he did a great deal of work for our people for which they will be eternally thankful. I attended a seminar in Donegal last year where he spoke to the General Council of County Councils. He felt the Government should insist that 10 per cent of the Structural Funds for Ireland be set aside for a two to three year period specifically for county roads. This would be great. We cannot ask central Government for money all the time. If they can get 75 per cent or 80 per cent funding solely for primary routes, naturally that is where the money must be spent. A case should be made in Brussels for 10 per cent of the Structural Fund to be set aside specifically for county roads.

It is pointless to build up a tourist trade in Kerry or any other county when tourists arriving at Shannon Airport have to drive all the way to Kerry, up to 150 miles on county roads. The new route through west Limerick was mentioned by Senator Rory Kiely. He and the other people who put it in place must be complimented, but it is a pity it did not extend to the coast road. We in Kerry would have liked it to come through Askeaton and Foynes to Tarbert and Listowel. Instead, it was brought into Adare, Newcastle West and Rathkeale. It reduces by half an hour a trip from Kerry to Limerick. It is a fantastic road.

However, as soon as you reach Tralee and Castleisland there is trouble. The route from Castleisland to Tralee and from Tralee onwards is on county roads, standard roads and so forth. We are trying to attract tourists but an American would be shocked when travelling on a county road especially if he cannot overtake.

Mr. Browne

(Wexford): It adds to the attraction.

Mr. D. Kiely

Indeed, it does. I once spoke about the Connor Pass. Somebody said we should widen it. I said we would ruin it if we did because it would take away the excitement. Parts of the road network should not have been changed.

Last year 1.5 million people came to Kerry and most of them visited the Ring of Kerry. This is the most beautiful ring route in the world. However, this is a county road network and we are trying to improve it. Our hands are tied because of the number of people who are paying rates in Kerry. The Minister will have to examine this seriously in the future.

Three times more money is spent on county roads in Cork than Kerry because Cork collects three times more revenue through the rates system. The same applies in County Limerick. The Minister will have to look at the rural counties.

The west will have to be taken as a separate issue. I am delighted with the recent proposal for a new western route. It is needed for the development of this country and for people who want to set up industries here. You cannot have industrialists going only to the east where all the facilities are provided. If this practice continues at the current rate one fine day this country will topple over on one side and everyone will be gone from the west. We appreciate the west and I am sure the Government knows what the west can offer this country from an industrial and a tourism viewpoint.

I live in the Tarbert-Ballylongford area on the River Shannon where there is the deepest water port in western Europe and there are 1,200 acres of land available there for development. Six hundred acres of land is owned by the State and another 600 acres is owned by private companies, such as Aran Energy who propose to build an oil refinery there. The IDA has taken several industrialists to that land bank over the last number of years. However, they will not invest money there because it is not developed. We have been told it would cost £20 million to develop the road network to the site. It is the best site in western Europe and it would have been developed a long time ago if it had been on a primary route; however, it is on a secondary route. The National Roads Authority must look at developing areas, upgrade the surrounding routes so that future developments can take place.

The local improvement schemes were also mentioned. They have been reduced dramatically over the past six years. Then the contributions paid to each local authority were four times greater than they are today. However, the costs have increased, with the result that we are doing less work.

When I was chairman of the General Council of County Councils I attended a seminar organised by the Engineering Industry Association. The chairman of that association said that 95 per cent of the country's funding should be given to the east and 5 per cent to the midlands and the west, because most traffic was in the east. He said traffic surveys would show that eastern routes, rather than those in the midlands and west, accounted for 95 per cent of traffic. However, he forgot to mention that the weight of an articulated truck travelling on a badly surfaced road in County Kerry would do more damage than 5,000 or 10,000 cars travelling on the same road. Inadequate road surfacing is a factor which must also be taken into consideration.

There has been mention of a proposed toll Bill. I was never a great believer in tolls. All the roads in the United States are toll roads and they are properly maintained. It is the same in Germany, Italy, Spain and the European countries I know. These roads are paid for by contributions from people using them. I would support the introduction of a toll system if it led to the construction of a proper road network. There is a toll bridge in Dublin which was built from private funds and it has been a success.

I welcome this Bill. The National Roads Authority must ensure that European money, which could be the last tranche granted, is spent in the best way, without political persuasion, for the future of this country.

Ms Kelly

I welcome the Minister to the House.

This Bill is long overdue. It shows a great improvement in the planning of our national road network. I want to discuss certain aspects of the Bill. One factor which surprises me is that there is no precise definition of what the Minister means by a national road. We have heard what several Senators consider to be a national road.

I agree with Senator Kiely and Senator Neville that the road linking Tarbert, Foynes and Limerick should be regarded as a national road because the Shannon Estuary is one of the deepest estuaries in western Europe. It is an area which has great potential for development and has been looked at by various industrialists who wish to set up a business in Ireland. However, they are deterred from doing so because it is difficult for heavy containers to travel the narrow road between Askeaton and Limerick. Heavy vehicles have been involved in numerous accidents on that road.

The road between Askeaton and Limerick should be developed as a potential national primary route. At present, a national primary road links Limerick with Tralee. However, this does not mean that another national route cannot be developed along the coast road, instead of through Newcastle West, Abbeyfeale and Castleisland.

I welcome the sections of the Bill which deal with the danger on our roads caused by deposits of farm material. Until recently, county councils operated under the 1854 Act and were unable to ask a farmer to remove debris from the roadside unless it was a health hazard. I should not discuss sections of the Bill until Committee Stage, but I thought that "flow" would have been an appropriate word to include in section 13 (10). Section 13 (10) mentions "material or thing which falls from a vehicle". However, material can also flow from a vehicle and sometimes it can be more dangerous than the material which falls.

In section 19 considerable powers are given to the National Roads Authority to do works along the roads. The section should also give the National Roads Authority the power to ensure that lay-bys are provided on our national roads. If the number of road exits is limited and people cannot get permission to open filling stations, etc., motorists would be unable to leave the road for perhaps ten miles. I suggest that when planning roads toilet facilities be provided at lay-bys. Such a facility would be very convenient for people travelling from Dublin to Killarney for example. As a mother of young children I know how difficult and embarrassing it is to have to carry them into a public house. What does one tell a child who needs to answer the call of nature? Toilet requirements are a fact of life and the National Roads Authority should bear it in mind. Toilet facilities must be located along new roads and bypasses.

Picnic facilities off national roads are required by tourists on self-catering holidays. Many tourists buy from supermarkets and prepare their own food but there is no place for them to eat their meal in safe, hygienic conditions. We must meet the needs of tourists in this regard.

Often a bypass exposes areas of a town never previously exposed to public view. This fact struck me forcefully recently. We have an excellent bypass, as Senator Kiely mentioned, around the town of Rathkeale. Landscaping along the road is first class and I thank those responsible for it. However, the backyards of those living along the bypass are an unsightly view to passing motorists. The Bill should provide for the allocation of money for landscaping improvements in places other than the strip of green along the roadside.

I welcome the provision in this Bill which prohibits the parking of caravans and mobile homes along national routes. Local authorities, in an effort to prevent further encampments, until now have placed unsightly boulders along roads. Limerick county council has constructed embankments which are unsightly also and require constant maintenance. This provision should cut costs by imposing a prohibition.

I agree with Senator Enright about the need to allow local people to contribute to the upkeep of roads. It is an excellent suggestion. Provision already exists under the local improvement scheme, whereby landowners can contribute to the construction of a road. Perhaps this provision could be extended to include the maintenance of a road. Many people would be glad to contribute a few hundred pounds as they would probably spend it on the repair of their cars otherwise.

Senator Enright mentioned road signs. Road improvement works should be clearly signed. Often one sees a sign saying "Danger, Road Works Ahead". However, there is never a sign to say the road works have finished or, for example, that there are no more dangerous bends ahead. In France a sign tells people that the danger has passed and that it is safe to drive at a higher speed. Such a sign is necessary since sometimes one set of bends will lead into another and if one is unfamiliar with a road one drives at too high a speed because one is under the impression that the dangerous bends have been left behind.

It would cost a considerable amount of money if original road signs were to be replaced. It is difficult in some parts of the country to read road signs at night without the aid of a touch. I have heard stories of people trying to use braille because they did not have a torch and their car lights did not illuminate the signpost. Often the road sign has been interfered with and people are sent on a wild goose chase.

The Bill states that notification of roadworks will be made in a newspaper circulating in the area. I have a problem with this because, and Senator Kiely will agree with me that The Irish Times for instance is circulated in west Limerick but few people read The Irish Times. Therefore, circulation is not the same as readership. A paper which is widely read would be a better means of notification. Local radio, a new development in Irish life, could be used as a means of telling people about changes to the road network. Local radio is becoming an important means of communication for local communities. In our area people listen to death notices on the local radio, instead of reading them in the daily paper. The use of local radio is not as frivolous as it might seem.

I hope the National Roads Authority considers the views of non-drivers. The Minister should ensure that a non-driver and a person who is not a representative of a motoring body is appointed to the National Roads Authority. Perhaps the same person could fulfil both roles. I would like to see at least one woman appointed to the National Roads Authority.

As Senator Farrell said all businesses are located along local roads. Few businesses have direct access to national roads. Therefore, the improvement of the local roads is not as uneconomic as one might think, particularly in rural areas. Agri-businesses located in rural areas are served by narrow county roads. Senator Kiely and I referred to two major chicken processing factories in our area. The volume of traffic on roads that are not even classified as regional roads — in many cases these are county roads — should be taken into consideration in road classification.

With regard to the state of county roads problems are caused by the movement of heavy creamery lorries. One might find one county road bring used by three heavy creamery lorries collecting milk from three neighbouring farmers. As Senator Kiely pointed out, enormous damage may be inflicted on a county road by a heavily laden truck. These factors should be taken into account when allocating funds for county roads. There seems to be an idea that county roads are only used by the occasional person going to Mass on a Sunday yet that is far from the truth. They are an important part of the road network which is essential to life and to business in rural Ireland. At the rate at which these roads are deteriorating there will not be an undamaged car in Ireland. I would admit that County Limerick has not got the worst roads in the country, but there are some roads, particularly in west County Limerick that would compare with those in Counties Cavan and Monaghan.

I welcome the general thrust of the Bill. It is time to consider our roads as a national asset and as something to be dealt with, not in a piecemeal fashion, but in a planned, co-ordinated way. I congratulate the Minister on this Bill.

Miss Ormonde

I welcome the Minister of State and wish him well in his portfolio. I have come in late on this discussion, having skimmed over the Bill, but I welcome the Bill as a county councillor who works on a daily basis with the problem of road development in the Dublin area. Furthermore, I live in the area of Dublin in which the Southern Cross route will be built.

I welcome the fact that the National Roads Authority will be concerned with formulating a long term, future plan for the Irish road network. I also welcome the consideration of our links with Europe and the co-ordination of road, rail and air transport. There must be ease of movement between this country and the rest of Europe and it is important that we consider our future in that regard.

However, I think that we are advancing these matters too slowly particularly in relation to Dublin. I admit I am being biased for the simple reason that even before I was elected to the county council in 1986 one of the important issues that I spoke on publicly was the building of the Southern Cross route which is the southern link of the ring road for Dublin. This project has been under consideration since 1982 and when I raise the issue with the Minister or the local authority I am told that the road design is complete and ready for construction, the CPOs are being prepared and the documentation is being put together. That is where it ends. If I raise the same question six months later I receive exactly the same response. It is like a record player with a broken needle.

I welcome the Bill and I hope that the National Roads Authority will contribute to the co-ordination and the completion of road plans that have been delayed for too long already. I know the Minister is aware of this but the point has to be repeated and emphasised. I live in a built-up area with a huge and increasing population but this Bill does not deal with the infrastructure needed to link large, built-up areas to the main national routes. One cannot discuss the National Roads Authority in isolation without considering the relationship between national roads and secondary roads. Large, densely populated areas have to be linked to the major, national routes. Therefore, national roads should not be built without building adjoining roads at the same time and allocating money to build national roads without adjoining secondary roads does not constitute a co-ordinated, overall programme for road building in densely populated city areas. The point of the Dublin ring road is to allow traffic from both north and south to go around the city rather than through it.

It appears that the Bill provides a framework but I would like more detail and I hope that will be supplied later. We are discussing the concept of this Bill today but in doing so we must consider other aspects of road building, for example, compulsory purchase orders. That is a cumbersome system whereby if an objection is made to a compulsory purchase order inspectors make a report which is then sent to the Minister for his decision and the whole process can take anything from six months to six years. I would like to know if improvements will be made in processes such as this.

As regards rezoning land, I would not be in favour of rezoning land for development without being aware of the infrastructure proposals for the area concerned. Planners do not necessarily take into account the infrastructure proposals for the area. Yet in the Bill I do not see enough emphasis on co-ordination between planning and road design. Is it that nobody dare interfere with planning or with road design? This issue should be set out in more detail.

I am concerned that local representatives and ultimately local democracy might have no input into toll road policy. I want to be able to express the wishes of local people via the local authority to the roads Authority. Consultation is important and if local democracy is not involved this may result in objections or demonstrations at a later stage of a project putting it back at square one. While I have not read the Bill in detail I think its broad concept is good. I would like more details about compulsory purchase orders, toll roads, planning departments and the involvement of the local councillors included in the Bill. It is important that the local authority and local representatives reflect what is happening on the ground. Progress will only take place when the views of the people are reflected in developing what is necessary for any part of our nation.

The Bill is good and I wish the Minister luck with it and I will co-operate in any way I can. As a member of a local authority I hope the composition of the National Roads Authority will not exclude the involvement of local councillors. As well as including the county managers and engineers county councillors should be involved in the NRA in some way as they have a contribution to make.

Ms O'Sullivan

I welcome the Minister to the House and I welcome this Bill which is coming before the Oireachtas at a very appropriate time as we are coming to the end of one phase of EC Structural Funds and entering a new phase. It is important that we make medium and long term plans for the national road network before we begin to spend the next phase of the Structural Funds.

In relation to such funding many people have felt that we focused too much on roads in the past and not enough on other aspects of structural development. I agree with that to some extent but at the same time we should not throw the baby out with the bath water. A good national road network is of crucial importance if we are to play our part in the EC particularly given our peripheral island location. While Greece and other countries may also be peripheral we are probably the most peripheral EC country. It is essential for our future development that we have a good roads network and in that regard the setting up of the National Roads Authority is very welcome. We need that kind of central roads planning.

To some extent I disagree with some of the speakers today who said they were looking for a strong role for local authorities in road development. Local authorities, and specifically public representatives, should be consulted. However, provision has been made for such consultation. The Minister in his speech pointed out that, when preparing the medium-term development plan, the National Roads Authority must obtain the views of local authorities. Before submitting the draft plan to the Minister for approval it must send copies to each local authority and the elected members can, as a reserved function, make objections or representations to the Minister. The Minister must consider them before deciding whether or not to approve the plan. To that extent there is a relatively strong input at local authority level.

The planning of a national road network should be the responsibility of an overall umbrella body. Senator Townsend spoke earlier about a section of road in a neighbouring county to Carlow which was of significance to the people of Carlow but of no great significance to the people in the adjoining county. Such difficulties would be overcome by a National Roads Authority. It would look at the overall picture and not just look at local, sectional interests which distort the national picture. We need a network of roads that will connect all of the major and minor centres of population. Therefore, it is essential that we have a National Roads Authority.

It is through the operational programme on peripherality that this EC money will be spent. This programme is not just about roads, but also about air, sea, railways and other forms of transport. It is about co-ordinating the road network into an overall transportation system. I support the views of Senator Sherlock who talked about the importance of railways as well as of roads. It is significant that the Bill provides for cycleways, bus routes and so on; it is not just about private and commercial road transport.

Senator Farrell pointed out that the national primary roads form only 6 per cent of the road network but carry 37 per cent of traffic. We were also informed that two thirds of that traffic is work-related. That is of crucial importance because many jobs depend on the efficacy of a road network which will enable commercial traffic to travel easily from place to place and specifically to ports.

A western link road from Sligo, through the mid-west, Tipperary and Waterford, to Rosslare should be constructed as it would enable goods to be more easily exported from these areas to Europe through Rosslare. I have a local interest in advocating the construction of this road as it would come through Limerick.

At the moment we are seeking the reclassification of a section of road through the city of Limerick, which is extremely congested, to enable it to qualify for the funding which would be necessary to repair it. Senator Sherlock raised the question of road reclassification, the Minister should clarify whether this will be a function of the National Roads Authority or of the Minister.

By-passing towns is an important element of an efficient national roads network. For example, travelling to the South or south-west from Dublin involves driving on a dual carriageway as far as Newbridge, spending at least half an hour trying to get through that town and then continuing on another dual carriageway. This does not happen in most European countries. One can go from one end of France to the other on its major road networks without having to go through relatively small towns. We have made some progress in that area but more is needed because small towns cause traffic delays.

There should be links from the national network to regional, minor, urban and local roads which, I think, are going to be reclassified into three groupings. It is important also, as other speakers said, that people should have easy access to national primary roads in addition to having good local roads. Links, ring roads, intersections and by-passes and so on are as important as the actual stretches of main road themselves because they are the areas that cause people problems.

If one travels through certain European countries as a tourist one sees signs giving information about the next town, whether it was a medieval city or whether it has an interesting castle to visit or local produce on sale and so on. We, too, should have more road signs to encourage tourists to come off the main roads and visit the locality — whether rural or urban — and see the sights of interest there. That would benefit local areas, particularly when we are going to improve our national road network. I agree with Senator Townsend that the sale of local fruit and vegetables should be allowed on main roads. Such links between the local community and the main road are probably more important in Ireland than in many other countries because of the personal touch that tourists expect from us; they do not want their contact with us to be very neutralised and clinical. We should exploit that expectation and encourage tourists to come off the main roads.

Many speakers referred to the smaller roads. It was mainly the county roads that were mentioned but may I put in a word for the urban roads as well because there are similar problems with these roads as with the county roads as they all have to be funded by the relevant local authority. There is much room for improvement with regard to allocation of money for these roads. Potholes are one cause for concern but I am also concerned that most urban local authorities — it possibly applies to rural ones also — are spending millions of pounds on insurance per year, much of which arises from repairs to roads and footpaths. There is no return obtained on this money. I would prefer to see the money used to repair the holes in the roads rather than going into the pockets of people injured because of those holes. That is a point that should be taken on board in relation to the funding of local authorities as well.

I welcome the Bill. It is detailed legislation which will require much examination on Committee Stage. It is important to have a National Roads Authority and medium-term plans for an efficient national roads network.

Mr. Daly

I welcome the legislation; an overhaul of roads legislation is long overdue. However, this legislation should be clarified to prevent widespread duplication. Care must be taken to avoid duplication of responsibility which eventually achieves nothing.

Members of local authorities would say that, had the local authorities been given the same finance now available from regional and European Community funding, they would have effectively maintained the road system. The difficulty is that unless the Minister is prepared to give the National Roads Authority sufficient funding the necessary work will not be done. We are aware of many instances when plans and schemes were left in abeyance or abandoned because the finance was not available to have the work carried out. Unless the Minister commits finances to deal effectively with the national roads crisis industry, commerce and trade will continue to be at a disadvantage compared to our competitors in the European Community.

This attempt to tackle the shortcomings in road conditions after many years of neglect is welcome. It will be necessary to establish a system of communication between local authorities as problems have arisen due to lack of communication in many areas, especially where different authorities adjoin. Unless there is consultation between authorities about design and planning, development cannot proceed. For example, in the Limerick area large sections of the city's environs are prevented from developing because Limerick County Council, Clare County Council and Limerick Corporation have no clear overall policy for the area. As a result, those authorities' plans for by-passes, which were drawn up ten or 15 years ago, have been abandoned or redrawn and a series of important infrastructural and other developments are held in abeyance.

The National Roads Authority can resolve many of these matters but the closest consultation among other semi-State bodies is also necessary. We have often seen local authorities install new footpaths, roadways or paving at enormous expense only to find them torn up again within a few days by the ESB, the sanitary services or some other body. There must be better co-ordination and it will be significant progress if the National Roads Authority can achieve that.

I would also encourage the extension of regional funding for the county road network. While we effectively maintain the national road network, the county road network is in appalling condition. It requires immediate attention and EC finance to deal with it. It also needs a local community response. Some years ago, in order to extend water supplies to rural areas, the Department introduced a progressive measure — the group water schemes — whereby the community, with the Department's support, technical advice and financing, was able to organise group water schemes which brought water supplies to remote areas. I suggest group road schemes, to improve the county road network, should be organised by the Department in consultation with local communities. The communities would be more than willing to be involved in such a venture. That system could secure European Community funding, which is not available under present regulations, for county road developments.

Additional powers are provided in this legislation to deal with traders, travellers and temporary dwellings on the road. The new Bunratty by-pass, which was opened recently and cost about £14 million, is already a traffic hazard at the Shannon junction where there is an encampment of traders on the site of the main thoroughfare. It should be clarified under this legislation if the National Roads Authority has the authority to deal effectively with illegal parking on the side of a major national by-pass like the Bunratty by-pass. While I have sympathy for the travelling tradespeople — there is a place for everyone in society — they should not occupy the side of busy dual carriageways thereby creating hazardous situations. They are creating even greater danger for themselves than for the fast moving traffic on these motorways.

There should be more transparency regarding the provision of European Community funding. For too long, in order to identify the precise source of funding, local authorities resorted to erecting signs on busy roads to declare that the road was funded by the European Regional Development Fund. It is important that we see where the money is spent. It is also important that we know how the National Roads Authority will account for their funding. There should be some procedure whereby the National Roads Authority presents an annual report to the Houses of the Oireachtas so that we can examine its progress in planning and development.

I am also concerned about recently completed roads which we thought were designed and built to the best international standards. The Limerick by-pass, just a few miles from Limerick city, is already in a state of collapse although it was opened just a couple of years ago. This worries and frustrates me. It is bad enough that county roads are in a state of collapse but when a new by-pass deteriorates to the point that it is now dangerous, some urgent action must be taken. It is hard to ascertain if Limerick County Council, Clare County Council or Limerick Corporation has responsibility for the by-pass. The new by-pass has already deteriorated to a state of near collapse and is in serious need of repair. I hope that in the planning and design of these new developments there will be a higher standard of engineering work. It may be the fault of the terrain, but I do not know the cause of the deterioration. It should be investigated soon.

This legislation will improve our roads network. It is long overdue and badly needed. The state of our roads is a major handicap to economic development and the further expansion of our trade and business. In updating this legislation we should not neglect any part of our road network. It is equally important that the fullest attention be paid to the scandalous state of our county roads, especially roads which serve scenic areas. These roads are the hardest hit and are in a state of collapse, especially in counties like Clare. It is disgraceful that this matter cannot be dealt with. The European Community cannot ignore the community who are living in the most isolated and severely handicapped regions of Ireland.

We have schemes to augment farmers' income in areas designated as severely handicapped. There are various programmes to enable people to continue living is isolated rural areas. One scheme which needs to be implemented speedily and effectively is the scheme to regenerate the local county roads in the most scenic and beautiful parts of this island. It is urgent that the National Roads Authority do something about that as soon as possible.

Mr. Cregan

I wish to expand on several points. Senator Daly has been very constructive and as a former Minister he is aware of the situation. I wish to refer to malicious claims. I am a member of an authority and the Minister will demand of us as a council to ensure that a certain amount of money per year is reserved for the payment of claims. I question whether our priorities are right.

In some counties, particularly County Waterford, very good roads have been improved because they are major roads. I am not saying these roads should not be improved but they were already in good repair. However, in other areas, no improvement is taking place. For example, the by-pass in Newbridge is very important; I travel from Dublin to Cork in three and a half hours. However, after Newbridge there is a lot of traffic congestion, especially in Kildare town.

What are the National Roads Authority's priorities as regards working with other authorities? I would like to expand on the vital points Senator Daly made regarding plans already put in place by other authorities. Cork city and County Councils, for example, had excellent ideas. The Lut's programme we set up in Cork city in 1978 was an excellent plan and is working very well. A great deal of money came from relevant Governments, irrespective of the party in office. We were one of the first joint authorities to put these proposals before Government. I understand the point made in relation to Clare County Council, Limerick County Council and Limerick Corporation but I question if enough discussion is taking place between these authorities. I question whether I have the right to speak on behalf of Cork County Council.

While good work is being done in certain areas very bad work is also being done in all counties because the local authorities do not have the necessary funding. It is sad to see so much money spent improving already good roads because the EC says we must have a certain amount of road widening and certain types of roads. Will the National Roads Authority be responsible for this? Must the EC allocation be spent on these roads?

Senator Daly is correct; the road to Shannon has already deteriorated. I find that disturbing. It was a dangerous road until the dual carriageway was constructed but now there is more danger approaching the roundabout to turn off for Ennis or Shannon. When we are designing roads we should look to the future.

Would it be possible for all malicious claims to be nationally funded? There is a Fine Gael motion before Cork City Council on this issue. For any authority to have to provide this money is unfair. Roads in the town of Longford are in a diabolical state. It is impossible to walk across the road in that town, yet that authority does not get sufficient funds. However, outside the town a dual carriageway on which you could land a jumbo jet could be built. In my view, building a dual carriageway is not a priority.

It is important to upgrade roads. I do not wish to criticise any authority but I take exception to any person who thinks he can do what he likes on the outskirts of one town and disregard other areas. That is happening on the outskirts of Cork, and I do not deny it. We have great roads because of the Lut's programme. It was a good move to build over the railway lines on the outskirts of our city. We do not take any credit for it because it was a logical move. However, 100 yards away I can be in danger on the roads or on a footpath. Roads have been built but there is no longer any footpath. That is not the fault of the people who laid the footpath but of the people who continued to lay road after it was found the road was not level with the footpath.

However, the local authority has to pay the claims submitted. I will give an example. One person in Cork city has seven claims against the authority and another person has five. These claims, on average, cost the local authority in Cork city approximately £4 million a year, every year and the situation is not improving. I find that very serious. I do not see the logic in saying that no money from the national roads structure funding can be spent in other areas. As regards our national roads structure, are we saying our priorities are right? When I drive from Cork to Dublin, I find that, while some parts of the road are good, other parts are very bad. Some counties have not been allocated as much road funding as others and the excuse that it is harder to make level roads in hilly counties does not hold water because roads in flat areas have had no improvements either. I want to see moneys evenly distributed among the counties, but is the roads Authority prepared to do that? When I drove from Claremorris to Castlebar, I was amazed at the improvement in the road since I last travelled on it three years ago. It was 9.40 p.m. on a Sunday night and I thought I was driving into New York. I am not exaggerating. There was no one on the roads. If a flight could not land at Knock Airport it could land on those roads, they were so well lit.

An Cathaoirleach

Have you been to Athlone lately, Senator Cregan?

Mr. Cregan

The by-pass in Athlone is so good that I thought it was London. It is exceptionally well-constructed but when one compares the Dublin side of the by-pass to the western side, one must question whether that was built to match. Was priority given to one side? When one leaves the motorway, on the Dublin side of Athlone it is very dangerous. That situation should be looked at, a Chathaoirligh. There are dangers on both sides of the Athlone by-pass.

Could the Minister explain the options for local authorities because adequate funding is not being provided by central Government. Another scheme could be introduced or authority given to collect taxes locally. We must take that decision ourselves while in Government. If the Government gives that power back to local authorities then Government will be able to claim that authorities can pay for both genuine and malicious claims in their regions. This question must be a worry for every local authority.

I worry too about the number of claims to be paid. I also ask where our priorities lie when I see Government introducing a National Roads Authority and setting up other authorities, such as the enterprise boards, to deal with the allocation of funding from EC Structural Funds. That is a sad reflection on Ireland because we choose our public representatives well. Our local authorities work well in comparison with other bodies. All of us here have worked in local authorities at some time.

Where did the idea of a National Roads Authority come from? I cannot see why funding for roads could not be given directly to regional authorities for areas such as Cork city and county. Why could we not set up an authority there? We only have conflict between Cork and Kerry on a football field. Otherwise, we want to make sure that people can travel from Killarney to Cork and from Cork to west Cork safely. When I drove from Rosslare, I found that roads along the east coast were better than in the rest of the country. The previous speaker said that it is important to have a good road between Sligo and Rosslare. I do not consider that a priority. Rosslare is not the nearest port to Sligo.

Mr. Browne

(Wexford): It is the best port.

Mr. Cregan

It might be the best, but it does not have a deep water berth like the port in Cork. It is not logical to travel from Sligo to Rosslare to catch a ferry or to send a container abroad. If this is EC thinking, it must be questioned. There should be a motorway though the middle of the country, with ancillary routes off it, but it will not happen because, politics being what it is, Castlebar will do better than Sligo and Athlone will do better than Ballinasloe.

When I drive to the east side of Dungarvan, I see a sign saying that if one wants to get to Killarney as fast as possible one should take the major road via Mallow. It is not good enough to ask tourists to travel directly from Dungarvan through Glengariff and north to Mallow and Kanturk. The vital tourist area of west Waterford and Cork city and county is bypassed. It is most unfair, especially to those in the tourism business in west Cork and it annoys me. I do not like seeing good roads, such as those in county Waterford, being improved on while other areas still have very bad roads. The EC tell us that the east of the country must be served well so that traffic can get in and out of the country quickly. I understand the economics of the situation but I do not agree with the idea of constructing a major road from Sligo to Rosslare. There is no reason why we could not transport goods from the west coast by sea.

Like Senator Daly I fear that this authority will, like other bodies not be answerable to local administrations. That would be unfair to managers, administration staff and all teams genuinely involved in county administration.

While Cork Corporation is doing exceptionally well, the number of claims in Cork — I can imagine what Dublin is like — is unbelievable. I am aware that many of the claims are not genuine. We have no answer to this because we cannot prove it is untrue or that there is no damage. I know of cases where people have created situations where they do not have to work at all. That is very sad. However, we as a people are creating that situation and when we look at the amount of money that——

An Cathaoirleach

It is now 6 p.m. and I ask you to move the adjournment of the debate.

Debate adjourned.

Seanad Éireann debate - Wednesday, 28 Apr 1993

Roads Bill, 1991: Second Stage (Resumed).

Seanad Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 28 Apr 1993