Seanad Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 27 Apr 1994

Vol. 140 No. 3

Waste Management Development: Motion.

Mr. Roche

I move:

That Seanad Éireann notes the extensive and open consultations already carried out by the Minister for the Environment and the Minister for Environmental Protection on the development of waste management policy, as well as the new EU co-financing envisaged by the Government for waste infrastructure; and, recalling the important commitments of the Programme for a Partnership Government to a waste recycling strategy and new waste legislation, urges the Government to advance these as soon as possible.

I welcome the Minister of State at the Department of the Environment, Deputy Browne, who has special responsibility for environmental protection. I mean to speak to this motion by way of a case study to use a sometimes over tried academic device. I want to illustrate the urgency of a national waste disposal programme by reference to something which is happening now in County Wicklow in the Ballinagran-Coolbeg area. The Minister will be familiar with this area since he passes through that beautiful part of my county each day.

There is no doubt that we urgently require a national programme for waste disposal and management, and that we have for far too long let this matter lie fallow without attention. The House should welcome that we have a Minister of State with responsibility for environmental protection whose record so far proves that he cares about these matters. In the performance of his official functions he illustrates that he is conscious of the difficulties we face in this regard.

We have a green and pleasant island almost by default. Considering the extraordinary behaviour we have engaged in as a nation over the years, it is a mystery that our country is still green and pleasant. We dump waste here and there; we are untidy in virtually every regard; we approach civic buildings and properties with total disdain and we behave in a way which would give vandalism a bad name. This is also done at official level because among the worst polluters are our public authorities, the sanitary authorities charged with the task of protecting the environment.

In the case study which I will mention to the House we have a well intentioned but, to my mind, entirely misplaced waste disposal strategy. I will give credit at the outset to the fact that at least in Wicklow County Council some thought is given to long-term waste disposal but the credit ends there. From herein it is downhill. By way of illustrating the nature of the task that faces the Government, and to assist the Minister and the Department in drawing up a national strategy to deal with the crisis, I will give some statistics.

County Wicklow currently generates 42,000 tonnes of waste per year for disposal by the local authority. It is conservatively estimated that by the year 2010 100,000 tonnes of waste will be generated and disposed of each year in County Wicklow. They are horrific statistics, particularly if one looks at the analysis of the waste. A huge proportion of it is material which could be recycled and a large amount of it is material which should not come into the waste cycle at all. We are literally destroying ourselves under a mountain of detritus.

One man's waste is another man's opportunity. The proposal in County Wicklow is that all the waste generated in the urban areas along the east coast will be gathered together. There will be some recycling and some reduction in the level of the waste, and this will take place in a number of specific locations. I do not wish to be too tedious or to go into too much detail, but what will happen in the north-east of the county — the area where I live and get the majority of my votes — in towns like Bray and Greystones is that the waste gathered through the waste disposal services of the local authority will be brought to one central location in Bray. It will be sorted there and rags, paper and a certain amount of other recyclable material will be taken out of it.

The other waste will be compacted, put into 40 foot long containers, driven to Ballinagran via the Beehive crossroads — a hostelry well known to the Minister. I know he is an abstemious man but, nonetheless, he will have dropped in there from time to time to engage in Mr. Clancy's hospitality and have a refreshing cup of coffee and a healthy Wicklow sandwich. The waste will be driven to one of the most pleasant agricultural valleys on the east coast, the Ballinagran valley, and the county council proposes to buy a 300 acre site in that valley, high up on the hill and create what is euphemistically called a landfill site; it is the first above ground landfill site I have known. In this 300 acre site they are going to dump up to 70,000 tonnes of rubble a year.

Let us consider the impact that will have on the valley, its infrastructure, agriculture and tourism, and on the life of its residents. At present about 0.75 million gallons of milk for the Dublin market are produced in Ballinagran. Bailey's Irish Cream draws a substantial proportion of its supply of cream from many of the east coast suppliers from along that valley. About 40,000 tonnes of the milk annually is produced on the boundary of the proposed site of the dump. These are extraordinary statistics but they do not end there. Annually, £100,000 worth of mushrooms is produced in the immediate vicinity of the dump site. There is a large scale organic vegetable production unit across the valley from the site, probably one of the biggest on the east coast, and certainly one of the biggest south of County Dublin. In addition, there are beef and suckler farms adjacent to the site.

Regarding the impact which this so-called waste management policy will have on the life, including the agricultural life, of this valley, it must be accepted that where there is dumping above ground there is no control on carrion crows, animals and rodents invading the site and carrying material, some of it infected, from the site to surrounding farmlands, destroying those farmlands and livelihoods. In addition, how is it possible to have a quality food image if people are advised that the biggest single landscape item in our area is a 300 acre dump?

The reason this landfill site or dump is above ground is that leachate will be drawn from it by forces of gravity. This will be put into large containers, brought up and put into the waste disposal system which is currently being built, with the assistance of EU funding, in Greystones and then pumped into the sea. Having poisoned our land, having set up what will undoubtedly be, per capita, the biggest and most expensive waste disposal system in the country, the fish in the sea will be poisoned also, for good measure.

These proposals are not perpetrated by some cash hungry, profit mad private entrepreneurs, but originate from the public sector, a statutory agency which has the statutory responsibility of protecting the environment of County Wicklow, the garden of Ireland, to be named from here on, at least one part of it, as the compost heap of Ireland.

Tourism is a viable factor in this extraordinary valley, which is a beautiful place. There has been big investment in the area, such as John Clancy's hostelry, The Beehive, which has been upgraded by substantial investment, and attempts to develop holiday chalets. Among the other scenic amenities of the area, one of the biggest dumps in Ireland will be on offer. The river which flows through the valley is fish rich and unpolluted because the farmers in the area happen to be environmentally conscious. There has never been a fish kill, but our statutory agencies are going to ensure that this record does not last much longer.

The situation in Ballinagran/Coolbeg has arisen because we do not have a policy on this issue in this country and we have been deficient in this respect. If there is to be a waste disposal strategy, we would all accept that the first thing to do is to fight waste at its origin. Go into any supermarket and look at any supermarket basket and it will become apparent that a huge proportion of the bulk in the basket is waste. It is packaging which is superfluous, expensive, adds to the cost of every item consumed and does not add anything at all to the consumer's wellbeing. The packaging goes home, it is stripped from the product and becomes a chore as money has to be spent to dispose of it.

We have developed a cavalier attitude towards packaging in this country and towards the other alternative ways of disposing of waste. For example, a huge proportion of the waste that goes into each and every bin could be composted and reduced down to something valuable, organic and environmentally friendly. Instead, we throw all this waste on dumps and produce countless millions of tons of poison every year. We produce leachate, which is among the most poisonous substances that could possibly be produced, chemical cocktails which could destroy an entire eco system, and we charge people to do this.

The situation at Ballinagran/Coolbeg is merely a symptom of the problem we have in this country regarding this issue. To give another example of the madness proposed for this 300 acre site, the site is above the level of most of the surrounding houses. Most of them draw water from pure wells in the immediate vicinity of Ballinagran/Coolbeg. They will not be drawing the water from those wells for much longer. Big dairy farmers depend on plenty of clean water to get their product to market and to be clean.

I do not mention this to attack a fine public authority. However, it is misguided on this issue and it has been allowed to go off the rails by an executive system which gives too much power to non elected personnel and by the fact that there is a deficiency in terms of a national strategy. What is happening in Ballinagran/Coolbeg arises in no small part because of arrogance at official level. There has been no consultation with the local community and no consultation with the elected councillors. These did not arise until after the proposals were launched. At present there has been a series of sales talks taking place around the country.

This case illustrates the deficiency in our thinking about waste. The first priority must be waste reduction. The second priority must be the recycling of the material which is currently being dumped. The third priority must be in respect of material which can be compacted in order to be composted, following which an alternative use must be sought for it. Alternative ways of disposing of the small residual must then be considered.

I am grateful for the opportunity to deal with this matter in the House this evening. I could have dealt with it at far greater length, but I suppose it is merciful from the point of view of the House that I did not have the time to do so. However, I compliment and commend the Minister on the work that is currently being undertaken. We have an urgent need in this country, if we are to develop our tourism, our standing as a quality food producing nation and to retain the quality of life we currently enjoy, to establish a waste recycle, waste management programme which is comprehensive and is put in place with the support of the people, particularly the absolute support of those who have to live near landfill sites — a programme which at the end of the day makes sense. The current way in which we handle the problem of waste makes no sense at all.

Mr. D. Kiely

I second the motion and welcome the Minister to the House. When Senator Roche mentioned Ballinagran I thought of the place by the same name in County Limerick, and I am pleased that there is another place with this name.

Waste disposal is a dirty term to everybody, and everybody in every county in Ireland has a problem with it, especially when trying to locate a site for it. Everybody wishes to dispose of their waste somewhere, but nobody wants it. When a suitable site is located, there are objections from people living three, four or five miles from the site because they have concerns about the traffic to and from the site and the possibility in rural areas of traffic jams being created when their children go to school and so on.

I have been involved with waste disposal over the years and have undertaken work in trying to identify sites for the people of my own County Kerry. At present I am proud to say that County Kerry has a state of the art landfill site established and operating.

An Cathaoirleach

I might disagree with you, Senator, and advise that there is a site of that kind in Athlone also.

Mr. D. Kiely

We visited the site in Athlone, a Chathaoirligh. You had a wall around it and we were not happy with what was inside the wall. We will invite you to the official opening of the site in County Kerry. There is no wall around it. It is surrounded by trees, is nicely landscaped and so on. In this respect most of the counties are envious and jealous of what has been achieved in County Kerry. It took us a long time to construct the site and substantial amounts of money were invested in the project, including a considerable amount of EU funding. If all the other local authorities wish to take a junket to County Kerry, I will issue the necessary invitations to enable them have a good look at what we consider to be one of the best landfill sites ever established. I thank the local people and the county manager and engineers for their help in developing it. Every county can have a similar site. Recently our county manager invited all the other county managers in Ireland to Kerry to look at it. I am proud of this site. For many years we struggled to establish it.

Many people could do a great deal to prevent dumping of rubbish. The newspaper industry could take a leading role in waste disposal by starting a recycling operation. This would lead the way for others to follow suit. When one is on the way home late at night one sees people who have bought six, eight or 12 packs throwing empty drink bottles on the side of the road. Pressure should be put on the drinks industry, which could play a leading role by offering 1p or 2p for the return of empty bottles which could be recycled. Supermarkets also have a role to play. I am sorry Senator Quinn is not here this evening because he could lead the way. He could encourage a system whereby people could return bags to supermarkets for recycling. When people go home after shopping they have to go through a large quantity of paper to unpack the items they have bought. Supermarkets could play a major role if they are interested in protecting the environment.

Senator Roche spoke about tourism. I am proud of this country and what it is doing to attract tourists. I am proud of our countryside. People living in the countryside should also be proud of it and should not throw their rubbish wherever they feel like doing so. Tourists have told me they like our environment, green grass, cows and so on. It is an absolute disgrace that rubbish is thrown by the sides of our roads. People should be very conscious of this problem.

When I speak about supermarkets and the drinks industry, I am speaking about the leading people in them. They should support the protection of the environment because it is their rubbish which is being dumped on the side of the road. They have an important role to play. Local authorities also have a major environmental role. They should take a leaf out of Kerry's book. I invite all of them to Kerry to look at the state of the art landfill site there, of which I am proud. They should see how we are going to develop and promote the site and have organised the bringing of all waste to it. I guarantee that if all the other local authorities followed Kerry's example, we would have a clean environment. I welcome the Minister and the motion.

Mr. McDonagh

I welcome the Minister and look forward to sitting close to him in Croke Park on the second Sunday of August during the All-Ireland semifinal, provided we can get tickets for the game. His chances will probably be better than mine because the man who gets our tickets in Galway, the hurling board secretary, Phelim Murphy, who has made an enormous contribution to the GAA, is in hospital. If I cannot get a ticket, the Minister might help me.

An Cathaoirleach

This is not relevant to the motion.

Minister of State at the Department of the Environment (Mr. Browne,

Wexford): Wexford will be in the semifinal too, unfortunately.

Mr. McDonagh

The Minister for the Environment and the Minister of State with responsibility for environmental protection have engaged in extensive and open consultation on the development of waste management policies. This motion is very important. It is important to have discussions but it is more important to implement their conclusions. I am concerned that members of the Government party, represented by Senators Roche and Kiely, have had to put down a motion urging the Government to advance the procedures vital to the environment and the development of a waste management policy. Are the Senators on the Government side concerned that the Minister is dragging his feet? Do they feel he does not realise the magnitude of what is involved? I concur with the motion and urge the Government to advance its proposals immediately.

In this and every other country we used to have a simple way of dealing with waste. We dumped it on land, in the sea and into the air. With expanding populations and economies, this practice became unacceptable and we recognised the need for treating waste. Such treatment incorporates any method, technique or process which changes the physical, chemical or biological character of waste. The emphasis is on the generation of less waste and the consumption of less raw materials and energy. It must be recognised that good environmental performance is an economic issue. Failure to conform will result in the loss of export markets, with consequences for employment.

The development of waste management will get more and more expensive. I look forward to going to Kerry on the business trip mentioned by Senator Kiely. I do not think the word "junket" is appropriate. I am sure the Senator meant a business trip to see what they are doing in Kerry. Once a landfill is full, it must be fully rehabilitated. This even applies to an old style dump, where rehabilitation can be extremely difficult and expensive. Toxic waste can only be disposed of in a specially constructed and licensed toxic facility. I understand none exists at present. In the absence of toxic waste treatment facilities toxic waste must be exported under strictly controlled conditions. This option may be closed off in the future if the EU insists that each country deal with its own toxic waste. This will be another very expensive process. The costs of constructing, running and rehabilitating modern landfills can be ten or 15 times more than those of the old style dumps in real terms. Whereas capital moneys are available for development of landfills, the enormous running costs will impose a major financial burden on the local authorities in the future.

The EU demands that the principle of the polluter pays be applied. If so, costs to dump users are likely to increase dramatically. Recycling is very desirable but is not as economical as dumps and landfills. New directives on landfill sites should be before the European Parliament in the very near future which will make developing, operating and rehabilitating landfills even more demanding. I remind the Minister and the Government that this is extremely expensive.

Many EU requirements are already in force where new landfills are concerned. Waste must be segregated. Certain types are no longer acceptable at dumps. Offal, most liquid waste, toxic or dangerous wastes must be dealt with separately. Landfills must be controlled and managed at all times and, I understand, must be closed when not supervised. All refuse dumped must be covered with earth or similar material each day. Dumping must be in cells with each cell rehabilitated as a new cell is opened for dumping.

The complete landfill site must be lined with plastic if it contains leachate — Senator Roche has already referred to this matter — that is, contaminated water which in the case of traditional dumps can run off and contaminate surface water, lakes, rivers etc. and percolate downwards to contaminate groundwater. This leachate must then be collected and pumped to a specially constructed treatment plant or to a suitable sewage treatment plant.

I wish to take this opportunity to refer to a dump in my own area, Carrowbrowne, and to remind the Minister that this dump, beside an expanding city, is filled and overtaxed. There is much concern on the part of the local people and I ask the Minister to take cognisance of any representations which may come from Galway city or county regarding the future of this dump at Carrowbrowne.

Enormous costs mean larger and fewer landfills, often one per county. If this is the situation, then people will have to travel many miles to the dumps. There will be ongoing maintenance of landfills and this will be extremely expensive, especially coming from limited local funds. Centralisation and a limited number of landfills will increase the waste transport costs.

I have gone through a number of issues this evening with regard to dumps and waste in order to outline the enormous expense which will be involved. It is important that in any developments the Minister would take heed of these enormous costs which will be imposed in the future on local authorities. It is essential that local authorities would be reimbursed for any developments which may be undertaken as they do not have the resources to comply with the European restrictions and laws. Regardless of what regulations or stipulations come from Europe, unless the local authorities, which at the moment are almost on their knees, get the requisite funds they will not be able to implement these proposals.

I ask the Minister, the Government and the Members who tabled this motion to take cognisance of the fact that if all these regulations are to be implemented, the Government must provide the necessary funds. Otherwise we will be in breach of European law, which we do not want to happen. I support the motion but I would like to remind the Minister and its proposers that they must now provide the funds to implement the proposals which they are advocating.

Minister of State at the Department of the Environment (Mr. Browne,

Wexford): I thank the Senators for putting down the motion and for their very positive remarks. Many speakers mentioned green Ireland and it is important that we would enhance the perception abroad of Ireland. Tourism and the food industry were mentioned and these are areas which we can build upon and utilise the perception of a green Ireland for marketing purposes.

The Maastricht Treaty identifies "the prudent and rational utilisation of natural resources" as one of the leading objectives of EU environment policy. Waste issues are central to this concern. Our attitude to waste prevention, recycling and management is a symbol and a test of our commitment to sustainable development.

It is for this reason that Agenda 21, the major product of the Rio Conference on Environment and Development, places such emphasis on the need for environmentally sound waste management. This must clearly encompass the safe disposal and recovery of wastes. However, waste management must also, according to Agenda 21, seek to address the root of the problem by attempting to change patterns of production and consumption.

This motion is, therefore, timely. It reflects the much higher political priority which waste issues now enjoy, both in Ireland and elsewhere, as well as the complexity of finding solutions to them. In response, I will briefly describe some of the major problems and challenges associated with waste today; review the efforts and progress made by the Government in the last year to address these challenges; and describe the major initiatives on waste management which the Government are about to take in the form of the national recycling strategy and the Waste Bill.

Serious problems are facing all industrialised countries in the waste management area. Domestic waste generation per capita has been increasing in most countries. The EU Fifth Environment Action Programme notes, as a disquieting trend, that despite increased recycling throughout the Community, the overall volume of municipal waste increased by 13 per cent between 1988 and 1992. Municipal waste generation in Ireland has also been increasing at a similar rate. Latest figures show that an increase of some 30 per cent in household waste took place between 1984 and 1993. Hazardous waste production has virtually doubled in the same period.

While Irish society has been increasing its production of wastes, there is also a much greater concern than previously about the problems of waste disposal. Landfill currently enjoys a bad press; only a very small number of new local authority landfills have been brought on stream during the 1990s. Senators have heard about the state of the landfill sites in Athlone and Kerry, which are probably the major landfill sites developed in latter years. In effect, the provision of landfills is becoming costlier and more politically difficult. With the adoption of the strict provisions envisaged by the draft EU landfill directive, it is certain that the overall number of Irish landfills, which now stands at 120, will have to be considerably reduced.

A more critical public awareness now exists about waste disposal practices, as well as a consensus that waste must be managed in a more planned and environmentally acceptable way. At the same time, it is clear that waste management must be addressed on the basis of the well established principle of shared responsibility.

Waste is not created by Governments or local authorities. Municipal waste is a by-product of the way in which householders, consumers and the industries and services which cater for them, now organise their transactions and exercise their preferences. Hazardous wastes are a by-product of industrial activity, which society is anxious to accommodate for the jobs and the economic development which it brings. Hospital wastes arise from the provision of services strongly demanded in all our communities.

All sectors of society have some stake in the provision or enjoyment of these activities or services. These sectors must correspondingly accept their responsibilities for managing the wastes which these processes generate. All Government and local authority efforts at improving and finding new solutions to waste management must be based on the premise of shared responsibility.

The Programme for a Partnership Government set out a number of objectives in the waste management area, notably the development of a national recycling strategy and of comprehensive legislation on waste. These are major and complex undertakings. In preparation for them, and consistent with the principle of shared responsibility, the Minister for the Environment and I have conducted a series of broadly based and open consultations.

As regards industrial and hazardous waste, I launched a specially commissioned discussion document in October 1993 on the promotion of cleaner manufacturing technologies in Ireland. This document identified a number of obstacles to the uptake of cleaner technologies by Irish companies. These include lack of awareness among managers, the absence of proven cost/benefit in relation to initiatives, problems of technology transfer and available investment capital, particularly in small companies and, in certain sectors, external constraints such as validation requirements relating to new processes.

The report proposed a new promotional strategy, based on a co-operation between relevant State agencies, higher education colleges and industry associations. It also recommended pilot waste audits and other demonstration projects in selected companies and further investigation of technologies which might have wide application across industrial sectors. The report's recommendations are now being analysed closely, as well as the comments which we have received on it, with a view to incorporating it into a wider national waste strategy.

The Minister for the Environment also arranged, in co-operation with Trinity College, Dublin, for a major consultative conference in January 1994 on hazardous waste management options. The proceedings of this conference, which had a large and widely based participation, will assist the development of hazardous waste related proposals within the Environmental Services Operational Programme, 1994-1999 which is being finalised in the Department.

As regards municipal waste, I have been operating on a number of fronts. First, I have continued assistance towards demonstration projects in the recycling area. Between 1989 and 1993, £1.6 million has been provided by the Department of the Environment in grant aid to some 50 recycling projects. This year we will be allocating a further £500,000 in recycling grants. Kerbside Dublin and Rehab have been notable beneficiaries of this policy, and recycling rates have shown a steady increase. Glass recycling in Ireland has now reached a level well in excess of 20 per cent and there is a national industrial capacity to cope with continued expansion in this area. Recycling of cardboard stands at 16 per cent while the recycling of aluminium cans has increased to 16 per cent by virtue of increasingly efficient selection arrangements and despite the lack of domestic recycling facilities.

Second, a conscious decision has been made to direct some EU co-financing within the 1994-1999 period towards improvement of waste management and infrastructure. This allocation of EU funding is the first of its kind by an Irish Government and two significant local authority proposals — a baling station in Ballymount, South Dublin, and a landfill at Castleisland, County Kerry, as you heard earlier — are at present benefiting from Cohesion Fund assistance.

Third, I have carried out an extensive and prolonged process of public consultation to provide input to the Government's national recycling strategy. A report by ERM Consultants, "Towards a Recycling Strategy for Ireland", was published early in 1993 and submissions were invited on it. To complete the process of consultations, a national recycling conference was held in December 1993 with the participation of experts and all interested parties.

I believe that this extended process of consultation has served to raise awareness in many different sectors about the need for recycling and to stimulate thinking on practical ways and means of advancing it. I have received submissions and suggestions from many different interest groups and operators which will help to inform the recycling strategy now being completed.

Three initiatives are now being finalised which will each provide a major contribution from the Government to better waste management in Ireland. These are first, the development of a solid waste sub-programme within the next environmental services operational programme; second, the formulation of a national recycling strategy; and third, the preparation of comprehensive new legislation on waste.

The Government is making specific provision under the National Development Plan, 1994-1999 for the improvement of waste management systems and infrastructure. We will offer new EU co-financial support under the operational programme for improving recycling infrastructure, for the development of waste management strategies at county and/or regional level, and for the provision of hazardous waste infrastructure. The public and private sectors will be eligible to benefit on the basis that better waste management capacity needs to be encouraged both within local authorities and the private waste industry.

The Government has been preparing a national recycling strategy for some time. The new strategy will have two broad objectives. First, to encourage the prevention and reduction of municipal waste and to give greater support in appropriate cases to re-use systems. The second objective will be to guide waste recycling in Ireland from its present output to levels consistent with the targets which we are undertaking. These are demanding targets. They mean that in relation to packaging waste Ireland must double its present recycling performance within a five year period and increase it four-fold within a ten year period. We will also have to intensify efforts to recover or recycle suitable non-packaging wastes such as newsprint, certain farm plastics and organic wastes.

An important purpose of the strategy will be to identify responsibilities for recycling as between different players in society and to give guidance on organisational arrangements for achieving higher recycling levels. Local authorities, industry, business, voluntary organisations and the consumers will all have roles to play. However, a key principle involved will be that of producer responsibility. In general, it is right that those who benefit commercially from packaging and other products contributing heavily to the waste stream should bear a major responsibility for the pollution they cause. Consumers must also shoulder appropriate responsibility given that they too use and benefit from packaging wastes.

As the strategy is nearing completion — we intend to publish it next month — I envisage it as a rallying point for all interests in society involved in the waste chain, and I hope that it will consolidate and intensify support for recycling.

Last November the Government approved my proposals for a waste Bill and drafting is now at an advanced stage. There are three broad reasons we need comprehensive new legislation on waste at this stage. First, we require a wider and more flexible national framework to implement the growing body of legislation on waste which has been adopted at EU level over the past decade. We also need provision for tougher penalties than are now possible under the European Communities Act, 1972. Regulations under this Act are limited to imposing penalties at District Court level.

Second, we need to bring local authorities, who form a major part of the Irish waste industry, under licensing control in relation to their waste operations. I intend that the Environmental Protection Agency will take on this licensing function and that the waste Bill will generally expand the Environmental Protection Agency's role in relation to waste management.

Third, the waste Bill will have to provide support, in the form of mandatory recycling plans and other obligations and incentives, for the promotion of recycling as envisaged by the new national strategy. My Department is working urgently to finalise the Bill and I hope to publish it by the summer.

A number of speakers mentioned supermarkets, plastic bags and the problems they cause. I recently had a meeting with the supermarket owners around the country and we put forward a number of proposals and suggestions to them as to how the problem could be dealt with. They have taken our views and ideas on board for consideration and will report back to us very soon. We also had a meeting with the newspaper industry who seem for different reasons to be reluctant to become involved in any form of recycling or waste management. We put a number of proposals to them also and we expect some kind of response in the very near future.

Landfill sites were mentioned — Senator Roche mentioned one in Wicklow. The acquisition and operation of landfill sites is a function of local authorities. I hope that when planning new landfill sites local authorities will have full and open consultation with the public. It would be totally unacceptable to me, as Minister of State at the Department of the Environment, and to the public if decisions were made behind closed doors. That arouses suspicion and fear. I am not referring to Wicklow in particular. However, I hope local authorities which intend to develop landfill sites will have open and frank discussions on the matter.

Senator Burke referred to a case in Galway. If Galway Corporation forwards proposals to the Department of the Environment they will be given consideration. I am sure a case could be made for EU funding. New landfill sites are subject to EU directives and their construction must be state of the art. Senator Kiely has encouraged people to visit Kerry to see the new landfill site there. He would appear to be on a promotion tour for Kerry. However, the landfill sites in Kerry and Athlone are certainly on a par with other new landfill sites in Europe. I hope that future landfill sites will achieve such a standard. Landfill sites which are eyesores and health hazards must become a thing of the past. In future years many of the 120 landfill sites which we have at present will be closed down. We hope to have a realistic number of about 50 which can be managed and developed properly and which can provide a good service.

The licensing, operation and closing down of landfill sites will, in the not too distant future, become the responsibility of the Environmental Protection Agency. It will have the power to ensure that old landfill sites are closed down properly. It will also have the power to ensure that new landfill sites will be opened and operated properly.

I thank the Senators for their contributions and I look forward to hearing more views in the course of this debate. We in the Department of the Environment do not have the monopoly in managing waste. It is a shared responsibility and we are open to the views offered by organisations, local authorities and others. We must develop the recycling strategy and adhere to the regular EU directives on waste management. We will do that and we look forward to the support of the Seanad in that work.

Professor Lee

I wish to share my time with Senator Henry.

Acting Chairman (Mr. Calnan)

Is that agreed? Agreed.

Professor Lee

This is an important issue. I am delighted that the motion was put down by the Fianna Fáil Party, whatever its motives at this juncture. I was heartened to hear from Senator Kiely that my native county is pioneering aesthetically attractive landfills and I never need an invitation to return there.

However, it was frightening to listen to Senator Roche's case study. It appears to be an off the wall example of how things must not be done. The Minister said that such a case will not be possible when the Environmental Protection Agency is up and running. One wonders if the rush in Wicklow may have been an act of conscious defiance of the Environmental Protection Agency and what may happen if it does its job properly. The Programme for a Partnership Government specifically includes under the authority that will be given to the Environmental Protection Agency—

supervision of local authority operations, including tight controls on landfill sites to minimise visual impact and disruption of the locality, and the development of guidelines/advice on environmental impact assessment, with the regulations being strengthened;

"Minimising visual impact" is obviously not what the Wicklow initiative had in mind. One wonders what its motivation was at that time. I hope such a proposal will not be remotely conceivable much less implementable when the Environmental Protection Agency is in charge.

I was also heartened to hear the Minister refer to the necessity for open consultation and to hear him say that it will no longer be possible to make decisions behind closed doors, although such decisions have been a long standing objective of politics. One hopes we will move in that direction. There is a fear that the Environmental Protection Agency could be used to restrict the free flow of information rather than to enhance it. I hope that will not be the case.

I had one reservation about the Minister's speech which was a holding operation although it was useful and instructive. He said that hazardous wastes are a by-product of industrial activity. That is somewhat fatalistic. Of course they are a by-product of industrial activity. However, the manner in which they are handled and the degrees of pollution that may arise from them depend very much on legislation, goodwill and technology.

The Greenpeace report on Cork harbour which was published last week would give one cause for concern. If the figures cited in the report about the breaching of the agreements reached between the firms and the local authority are correct — and if they are not correct the error should be exposed instantly — they are quite frightening as an indication of the indifference of many firms to abiding by such agreements. One wonders if we are a nation of such mendicants that we must quietly swallow the transgression of these agreements for which there has been no prosecution.

As far as the companies are concerned one might inquire why they cannot observe best practice. The quality of performance varies widely among them. Some companies have an excellent record in the Cork harbour area. It is not clear why other companies involved in the same activities believe they can and must get away with breaching agreements they have made. It shows, I fear, an unacceptable disdain for the character of law enforcement in this country. I hope that will be examined closely and that Cork harbour will not be expected to bear the burden of public pollution in the foreseeable future. That report, assuming it is correct and stands up to scrutiny, is a sad indictment of current practice in a major area of this country.

I do not wish to sound unduly negative. Public consciousness is rising and the Government can play a constructive role in raising consciousness on this important issue. I have two questions for the Minister. The Programme for a Partnership Government states that the EC directive on freedom of access to environmental information will be fully implemented. At what stage is full implementation? If it is not fully implemented, what is the schedule for such implementation? In terms of informed public discussion, where a balance must be struck between environmental and other factors, it is very important that the fullest possible information is available and that the public is confident that it is not being hoodwinked and that information is not being held back. To what extent have we implemented the provisions of the Paris Convention, signed by the Minister for the Environment in 1992, which committed us to phasing out the use of certain dangerous chemicals by the year 2000? It is now 18 months since that was signed and we should be told whether we have begun to comply.

Dr. Henry

I thank Senator Lee for sharing his time with me. The Minister spoke about the management of waste, but we could make a start in this House. I would not suggest that ministerial speeches are not always thought provoking and interesting, but why are they only printed on one side of the page? The technology necessary to print on both sides is available and it is a good way to start putting our own house in order.

I feel I should defend my colleague, Senator Quinn, from Senator Dan Kiely. If he shopped in Senator Quinn's emporium, as I do, he would know one takes as many items to the shop as one brings home, between bottle banks, tin can dumps and plastic recycling bins.

I am disappointed in the way the Minister alluded to hospital waste in his speech. This is a serious problem and it is not enough to say such waste arises from the provision of services strongly demanded in all of our communities. In this city there is an enormous controversy about what to do with hospital waste, how many hospital incinerators to build, where to build them, and what to do with radioactive and chemical waste from hospitals. The Minister's reply is not a sufficient response. I work in hospitals so I know they are most valuable institutions. However, extraordinarily dangerous products come from them and we must deal with them, from a biotechnological and a chemical point of view. Often we do not examine the biotechnological aspect.

I support Senator Lee's remarks about areas where there has been serious waste and chemical pollution. The Minister mentioned legislation which is due but if we enforced current legislation we would go a long way towards reducing an enormous number of problems from pharmaceutical, chemical and food industries. A much greater effort has been made to enforce the provisions in the agricultural sector. Senator Lee asked whether we were such mendicants that we would put up with anything. As Senator Roche said, we might destroy our heritage by taking the industrial shilling to get what we see as valuable opportunities for employment. Current measures should be enforced while we await the introduction of future legislation.

Mrs. McGennis

I welcome the Minister. If ever a motion was timely, this one is. However, I am worried that the clock is ticking in Dublin; if something is not done soon by the four local authorities the city will be in crisis. For various reasons, not wholly attributable to the Minister, the local authorities in Dublin put all their eggs in one basket by planning one large dump in Kill. The residents of Kildare were supposed to accept municipal waste and one cannot blame them for protesting. Planning permission was refused, but the application is under appeal. If the appeal is defeated it is no exaggeration to say waste disposal in Dublin will be in crisis.

I welcome the Minister's speech and its thrust would be in accord with green politics. The environmental buzzwords are recycle, reuse and reduce and the Minister addressed those issues. I would not disagree with Senator Henry about Superquinn, but I object to the amount of packaging in supermarkets. Every item is excessively packaged. This issue, which concerns marketing, advertising and money, must be tackled. If we do not, the level of waste will not be reduced. The Minister said: "Despite increased recycling throughout the Community, the overall volume of municipal waste increased by 13 per cent between 1988 and 1992". That will be the position in Ireland and worldwide unless we take the hard legislative decisions to direct companies to reduce packaging.

The Minister also mentioned that landfills have had a bad press, but such criticism is only beginning. Dunsink dump is in my electoral area; it receives a good deal of bad press and is probably well known to Members. That was set up by a local authority and I am a member of its successor which now runs it. If that is an example of how a local authority disposes of its waste, it is unacceptable and the people of Finglas cannot be expected to endure such management.

The Minister will have to take a legislative stand to ensure local authorities put their houses in order. Holes have been carved in the land and many problems have followed. Waste was not covered; travellers have set up camp in close proximity to many landfill sites in Dublin and often they were scavenging on those sites. The potential dangers and health hazards to those living beside the dumps are unbelievable. I am happy to see the bad press continue until those responsible correct the problems.

We should discuss what is happening because local authorities have not tackled the problem of waste. They have done nothing and have a bad reputation because of the landfills they have operated. The landfill in Senator Kiely's area is an exception to the rule. When a local authority attempts to open a landfill there is a massive number of objections, which is understandable.

The Minister spoke on national radio about the proposal made by a private company in my area to open a state of the art landfill on a 336 acre site. That project seems like a knee jerk reaction; it may have been prompted, but it is unacceptable in the area I represent. The people of Blanchardstown will not accept a super dump even if it is state of the art. They will continue to object to landfill sites.

I acknowledge that, as the Minister says, waste is not created by Governments or local authorities but by all of us as consumers and householders and we do not want to deal with it. Nonetheless, proposals made at local authority level to segregate waste and offer recycling services have been knocked down. When my colleagues in the Green Party mooted these suggestions they were laughed at, criticised and held to ridicule by county management. Our course has been set in a particular direction — we will simply continue to bury huge amounts of rubbish. Unless local authorities realise that is not the way to proceed and central Government decides waste must be reduced, we will still have major problems. The Minister said landfill is becoming more costly and politically difficult and that will continue to be the case. He says the level of waste will be reduced, but I ask him to say specifically how that will be done.

Reference was made to recycling, and I pay tribute to Kerbside. I thank the Minister and the Department of Enterprise and Employment for their support for this scheme. Kerbside operates in my area and it is a service which has been demanded by the public and to which they have adjusted. It is strange that the more successful it becomes, the more reluctant the local authority is to support it. I hope central Government does not adopt the same position.

Recycling is identified as being the saviour, but it is a costly solution to our waste problem. Dublin County Council decided to use recycled paper and to make it available for processing free of charge. The result was that the product was being supplied to a company which then decided it was too costly to recycle. Dublin County Council took back segregated waste and dumped it in landfill sites at great cost. I want waste management, as does the public, not because it is a good idea, but because I do not want a 336 acre dump in my area. Waste management will be a costly option and the Minister must clearly state this fact. One is talking about costs of approximately £30 per tonne, which could increase to £100 per tonne. Our recycling efforts are below average and they must be improved.

The Minister knows that a time bomb is ticking in Wicklow, Dublin and the other areas which telephoned the programme the Minister referred to. Aspirations to do something about it and proposals to introduce Bills are laudable, but the Minister must bite the bullet on this issue and we as local authority members must ask the community to accept the result. I wish the Minister well because he must be Solomon in this case and try to find a solution which the public must accept, although it will be costly.

Mr. R. Kiely

I commend my party for introducing this motion. It was suggested that the Government was falling down on the job in relation to waste disposal, but it is doing a good job and the Minister is committed to easing the problems of waste disposal. However, that does not mean we should not debate this issue because it is healthy to debate our success as well as our failures, although they are few. This issue has been handled well by the Government and the Minister of State at the Department of the Environment, Deputy Browne (Wexford).

Waste disposal is always causing a problem. In my maiden speech in the Seanad some years ago I referred to careless dumping of waste, particularly in relation to bags of waste on the roadsides. This has been reduced as a result of the Government's efforts, although some individuals continue to cause problems by dumping bags on the roadsides instead of disposing of it properly. Careless dumping of waste does not take place on the same scale as it did previously.

The Minister in his speech said:

While Irish society has been increasing its production of wastes, there is also a much greater concern than previously about problems of waste disposal. Landfill currently enjoys a bad press; only a small number of new local authority landfills have been brought on stream during the 1990s.

He also said that the overall number of landfills, which now stands at 120, will be considerably reduced. Landfill sites in my area are properly supervised, although I do not know if they are supervised in County Kerry. These sites were a good purchase for Limerick County Council. The Minister said there would be fewer landfills, but Senator McGennis did not agree with the 336 acre landfill site. What will we do with waste when the number of landfills are reduced? Perhaps incinerators could be used. Many problems arose recently in County Limerick about the erection of an incinerator. There was public protest about where it should be sited.

Mr. D. Kiely

They tried to transfer it to County Kerry.

Mr. R. Kiely

The Senator objected to it.

Mr. D. Kiely

I did.

Mr. R. Kiely

County Kerry would be more suitable than County Limerick, although I did not suggest that. Kerry County Council agreed to place the incinerator in some part of Kerry, but one person objected.

Mr. D. Kiely

The Senator is taling to him.

Mr. R. Kiely

Waste disposal is a problem for local authorities and county councils; but, as has already been stated, it is not a problem for the consumer. The shopkeeper causes some problems also and Senator McGennis referred to over-packaging. Plastic bags must be cheap because when I go shopping the purchases are often placed in two bags and this causes waste problems. Even when one tells the shopkeeper that a bag is unnecessary, they will still use one. These bags should be used properly to ensure less waste, especially in homes.

The Minister said that recycling is desirable and I agree with him. He stated:

Glass recycling in Ireland has now reached a level in excess of 20 per cent and there is a national industrial capacity to cope with continued expansion in this area. Recycling of cardboard stands at 16 per cent and aluminium cans has increased to 16 per cent by virtue of an increasingly efficient collection arrangement and despite the lack of domestic recycling facilities.

In relation to packaging waste, he said that "Ireland must double its present recycling performance within a five year period and increase it fourfold within a ten year period." In his reference to municipal waste he said:

I have been operating on a number of fronts. First, I have continued assistance towards demonstration projects in the recycling area. Between 1989 and 1993 £1.6 million has been provided by the Department of the Environment in grant aid to some 50 recycling projects. This year we will be allocating a further £500,000 in recycling grants.

I am concerned about the processing of applications for grant aid because a recycling plant in my county, which was grant aided, did not last a year and a half and people knew this would happen. I do not know what criteria are used to process these applications. Do these people need recycling or money management experience? For example, a once-off grant of £50,000 was paid to Shannonside Recycling Co-operative Society (Limerick) by the Department of the Environment. In addition, FÁS provided financial and administrative assistance, while Clare County Council and Limerick Corporation provided financial assistance on an ongoing basis. However, the project experienced severe operational difficulties. An inspection by an official from the Department confirmed that operations had ceased after a year and a half. The man involved was too lazy to go to the toilet, let alone operate a recycling plant. While projects like that need to be grant aided, they should be monitored so that money will not be wasted. Can anything be done about wastage or carelessness if money is misused or treated with disrespect in cases such as this which involved a £50,000 grant and other grant aid?

Mr. Byrne

This is a major issue and a number of important points were made by previous speakers which I will not repeat. I welcome the Minister to the House and I thank him for the work he has done in this area during his time in office. As previous speakers said, he faces a difficult time because unpopular decisions must be made about halting sites and landfill and we wish him every success. Although the county manager must make the final decision, the local authority and the Minister must carry the can and this has caused problems in every county. This problem has become more serious in recent years.

As Senator R. Kiely said, we are now living in an age of plastic bags. In the past there were no motor cars or refrigerators and our parents, whether living in a town or in the countryside, used a basket when shopping because plastic bags were not available. Plastic bags, which become caught in bushes and hedges, are unsightly and damage our tourism industry. They are also dangerous to livestock because they chew these bags and become seriously ill or die. Plastic bags also block waterways, thus causing all sorts of problems.

I believe plastic bags should be banned. Supermarkets which use plastic bags, while not irresponsible, want to get their produce out of the shop. The Minister has spoken to supermarket owners about this problem and that is a step in the right direction. By using ordinary baskets, our parents avoided this problem.

I believe we are going backwards. We need people to visit our beautiful countryside in order to create jobs. The Government is doing what it can to encourage people to visit and consume our produce, but people are careless. They forget about the damage done when they drop bags of rubbish from their homes on the side of the road. We should be concerned about this; otherwise it means we are not concerned about those who have no jobs. People are not impressed by indiscriminate dumping in rural and urban areas.

Different types of plastics are used for various purposes, including plastic covering for silage pits, fertiliser bags, etc. If this plastic is burned, it can be dangerous to one's health. Recently I heard a doctor say that the fumes from burning plastic may be fatal for a child or a young person with bronchitis. Often we do not know what materials are in the plastic. It is time we tackled this problem in the national interest. Most local authorities are doing what they can, but plastic bags are continually used and it should stop. I hope supermarkets will follow the Minister's advice.

The difficulty the Minister and local authorities faced — I have been a member of a local authority for 27 years — when trying to get new sites has been caused by badly maintained dumps, many of which have now been closed. I am glad to hear that the dump referred to by Senator R. Kiely in County Limerick is well managed. In many counties there have been deputations from people who spent money developing their homes in private housing estates which are located near dumps. One such dump was located in my area and the county manager drew up a charter, or 12 commandments, for its maintenance; but they were all broken bar one. I hope the Minister will ensure that local authorities who get State or EU funding will spend that money properly. A number of years ago I visited a dump in the Midlands which was far better than existing ones. One may spend as much money as one likes, but if the local authority is careless, it is money badly spent. Given demands on local authorities and central Government, we cannot afford to spend money badly.

People fear public dumps. Even within one mile of a dump, one finds plastic bags everywhere and all kinds of people gathering scrap. If dumps are badly maintained and not filled with clay frequently, birds feeding may spread germs, thus causing disease among livestock. I know a person living close to a dump who has had a breakdown in their herd because of brucellosis. Dogs and birds, including crows, carried material and dropped it in this person's field. Badly maintained dumps are also a danger to humans because of flies and vermin. Vermin control in the dump I referred to was bad. The rats were so large that one could have entered them in the Derby — that is how healthy they were.

It is terrible to locate a dump near a housing estate. The county manager, members of county councils and the Minister will face problems in trying to find a suitable site. We have a problem in south Tipperary in trying to find a suitable site. We must find sites. There is no simple solution and we must face up to that. The maintenance and the design of new sites will ensure that our water sources will not be damaged by effluent or leakages from dumps. Often industries deposit on dumps materials we do not know about. Such materials could get into our springs. A lot of damage has been done in the United Kingdom because of careless siting and maintenance of dumps. We are lucky because when setting up new dumps we can learn from mistakes made by other countries. We will not make those mistakes again.

I ask the Minister to ensure that when the State, the EU and local authorities spend money developing these dumps, they are properly maintained because every local authority or private housing estate fears them. Who could blame them? The record of local authorities in dump maintenance leaves a lot to be desired.

In this so-called modern age, in addition to plastic bags, unnecessary packaging occurs and this adds to the price of products and to the lorry loads of rubbish. The Minister, local authorities, the county manager and the public face a major task in trying to keep Ireland a clean and safe place to live and in creating jobs for young people in the tourism industry. This is a beautiful country, but a lot needs to be done.

Mr. Sherlock

I welcome this motion because it calls for a waste recycling strategy, new waste legislation and that such legislation would be advanced as soon as possible. It is disappointing that glass recycling in Ireland, according to the Minister's statement, has now only reached a level of 20 per cent. There is a national industrial capacity that could cope with containment expansion in this area. There has to be because the waste disposal problem must start with segregation. The sooner there is legislation on this issue the better.

The Minister referred to the forthcoming waste Bill that will provide support in the form of mandatory recycling and other obligations and incentives. I ask the Minister to introduce that Bill as early as possible. There are no two counties in Ireland or no two divisions in counties that have the same policy for waste disposal. I ask the Minister, perhaps when replying, to define a landfill site. I am a member of two local authorities in the north Cork area — Mallow Urban District Council and Cork County Council, Northern Division. We have always had a problem with this in Mallow but we secured a fine site and were doing well until the county council decided it would use that site. Then problems arose. The controlling of dumps was referred to by other speakers. In north Cork we bought a substantial tract of land and made it what has been described as a landfill site. Of what does a landfill site consist? Both the Minister and his Department should closely scrutinise what is being proposed. As a lay person, I can clearly see that this project is not on. It does not matter how much one refers to the impermeable nature of the soil on which that refuse is being dumped. The leachate has to drain off at some point, although in the north Cork area it is currently being drawn off and taken to another waste disposal unit.

Money does not seem to be a factor with regard to the northern division landfill site at Ballinagran in North Cork. I am being parochial on this matter because it concerns me greatly. Although there are few living in that locality, there is great concern at the installation of gas ventilators to take gas out of the site and that leachate is seeping into the water mains. Some people are contending that the discoloration is coming from something else. I am saying this in a determined manner because there is no point in glossing over such matters; one must face reality. This is why I welcome legislation governing waste disposal.

The problem of plastic bags has already been mentioned. I have observed in many areas — the greatest explosion will come in a few years time — people taking manure from plastic bags, spreading it and dumping the plastic bags, some of which still contain manure. They end up going into streams and causing a lot of blockages. I said a few years ago that those who supply the product should at least set up an arrangement to collect the waste bags and dispose of them at a central depot. We all recognise that there are now EU regulations on these matters and that an environmental impact assessment will have to be made when one remembers that over 25,000 tonnes of waste per annum is dumped in a landfill site.

I welcome the Minister saying that legislation will be introduced to deal with this problem. When we talk about local authorities and their financing, we should remember that in many areas, there are private companies organising and collecting waste. Is there any control over where those companies dispose of their waste?

Mr. Roche

May I thank the Minister for his contribution because he made some interesting points. The Minister's emphasis on recycling picked up a train of thought from many other Senators' contributions. I also thank all of the Senators who contributed because this meaningful debate is above party politics. I was especially interested in Senator Sherlock's contribution because I was thinking about landfill and leechate when the debate started. Indeed, both of us finished up with precisely the same conclusions. I was critical of my local authority and Senator Sherlock was critical of his.

One trend that came across from this debate was that recycling makes sense. It can also create jobs. The Rehabilitation Institute has shown that money can be made from recycling. Indeed, Rehab has done marvellous work in the recycling of glass. A number of Senators made the point that local communities and voluntary groups could make more of this waste. "There is brass in muck" is an old English expression which could be adopted here. I thank the Minister for referring to the proposed landfill site at Ballinagran. The best reference he could give to it is to say it will not go ahead.

The recently established Environmental Protection Agency comes into final operation next week. It would make a lot of sense if the planning, management and rehabilitation of landfill sites was taken from local authorities, who are currently fidding around with plans and spending a lot of public money on consultants, and handed over to the Environmental Protection Agency ab initio. We could then have a cohesive policy. The Minister's contribution was thoughtful and thought provoking and there was a great deal of meat in it.

Question put and agreed to.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

When is it proposed to sit again?

Mr. D. Kiely

It is proposed to sit at 10.30 a.m. tomorrow.