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Seanad Éireann debate -
Thursday, 16 Feb 1995

Vol. 141 No. 18

Civil Legal Aid Bill, 1995: Second Stage.

Question proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

The purpose of this Bill is to provide a statutory framework for the Government's civil legal aid and advice service. The Bill continues the arrangement whereby the Legal Aid Board provides legal services in civil matters to persons of limited means, at little or no cost to applicants. Since the vast majority of cases dealt with under the scheme are family law cases the Bill is, in substance, a family law measure, and for that reason it is a priority measure under the Government's programme of legislation and that of my Department. The Bill is part of a series of extensive proposals which the Government is pursuing in relation to family law matters, including the holding of the referendum on divorce in 1995.

The main features of the Bill are that it provides for the establishment and composition of the Legal Aid Board, the powers and duties of the board, the criteria for the granting of legal aid and advice, the type of cases which may be aided, management of finances and the powers of the Minister for Equality and Law Reform to make certain orders and regulations to give full effect to the legislation.

The vital resources of a system of civil legal aid and advice are a combination of money, staff, law centres and clear rules under which the system can operate to the benefit of the public. For most of the time since the foundation of the legal aid scheme some 16 years ago, Exchequer funding has been in short supply. Numbers of staff and law centres were not, therefore, what they should have been, and long waiting lists were a feature in most law centres. My dissatisfaction with that over the years is, I think, well known and I have always been determined to do something about it. In my period in office as Minister since 1993, funding of the board has, I am delighted to be able to say, more than doubled. It went from £2.7 million in 1992 to £4.97 million in 1994. The 1995 Estimates provide for £6.2 million, an increase of 25 per cent on last year. With these extra funds available over the past two years, the Legal Aid Board has been able to more than double its staff numbers.

The number of full time law centres has increased from 16 in 1993 to the current figure of 24. When the Wexford and Ennis law centres come on stream shortly, the number of full time law centres will be 26. Based on 1995 Exchequer funding increases, more centres are proposed to be opened and additional staff will be provided. Access to legal aid has been greatly facilitated by these major developments and waiting lists have been reduced dramatically.

For too long the board and its staff have had to plough a lonely furrow in providing a service to needy clients without proper funding, not enough law centres and insufficient numbers of staff. I wish to make special mention of those solicitors and other board staff whose dedicated service kept the legal aid scheme going during the lean years and to express my appreciation of them. The board now has a nationwide service and the necessary staff resources are being made available.

The scheme, which has been in operation since 1979, was established against the background of the report of a Government appointed committee under the chairmanship of Mr. Justice Denis Pringle. The main features of the scheme were announced in May 1979 and anticipated by some months the judgment handed down by the European Court of Human Rights in October 1979 in a case taken by Mrs. Johanna Airey against the Irish Government in the matter of access to the courts.

Many of the provisions in the scheme are in line with recommendations contained in the Pringle report. That is not to say that all of the report's recommendations were followed; there were some significant differences. The committee considered, for example, that a mixture of law centres and solicitors in private practice offered the optimum basis for servicing a civil legal aid scheme. However, the scheme until recently provided only for the use of the board's own salaried solicitors in law centres. The board had no authority under any circumstances to avail of solicitors in private practice.

I formed the view when I took over responsibility in relation to the Legal Aid Board two years ago that the time was right to embark on an initiative in this regard, to provide for the introduction of a pilot project for the use of private solicitors to supplement the services provided by solicitors in law centres. I have made provision in the Bill to enable the board to avail, where necessary, of private solicitors. However, the main work of the board's legal services will continue to be the responsibility of the law centre solicitors.

To assist the House in its consideration of the Bill, I now propose to explain briefly the manner in which the existing scheme of civil legal aid and advice operates. This is relevant to the debate because an understanding of that scheme, on which I am basing the statutory scheme, will be useful when we come to deal with the details of the Bill.

In order to qualify for assistance under the present administrative scheme, an applicant must satisfy two basic eligibility tests. The first of these is a means test and the other is a merits test. An applicant is eligible on financial grounds if his or her "disposable income" and "disposable capital" are within certain limits specified in the scheme. "Disposable income" is the income which remains when various deductions are made from gross income, "gross income" being defined as total income received from all sources. The deductions to be made from gross income, which are referred to as allowances, include for example, income tax, mortgage repayments, rent, social insurance, VHI contributions, expenses in travelling to and from work, together with various allowances in respect of the applicant's spouse and dependent children. "Capital" includes, for example, money in the applicant's bank, credit union, building society or post office accounts, or the applicant's house, property or land. The assessment of the value of such resources can have the appearance of being a complex matter. However, the simple aim is to find the value of the applicant's disposable capital, which is its gross value, less, for example, the cost of realising assets, outstanding loans etc.

In the vast majority of cases applicants do not have significant capital resources which means that, by and large, eligibility is determined by reference to income alone. It is worth mentioning that while the incomes of a husband and wife are normally aggregated, they are treated separately when the parties are in conflict with each other, or where they are living separately and apart. The effect of this rule is that in a very high proportion of matrimonial cases, a wife will qualify for legal services, even if her husband is financially secure.

The merits test to which I referred earlier operates on the basis that legal aid may be granted only where the applicant has, as a matter of law, reasonable grounds for taking, defending or being a party to legal proceedings and is reasonably likely to be successful in those proceedings.

Different considerations apply in the case of applications to the board concerning children. Senators may be aware that this is the effect of a decision of the Supreme Court in the case of M.F. v. Legal Aid Board and Others ([1993] 13 ILRM 797). Following that decision the position has been that a person applying on behalf of a child who is otherwise eligible for legal aid should not be refused it under the merits test unless the board considers that there is no reasonable likelihood that the applicant's point of view and submissions in relation to the child would be among the material which would be relied upon by a judge in determining issues concerning the child. The board, therefore, has considerable scope to grant legal aid in cases concerning children on the basis primarily of the means test.

In considering applications for legal aid in general, it is also necessary for the Legal Aid Board to have regard to all the circumstances of the case, including the probable cost of taking or defending the proceedings, measured against the likely benefit to the applicant. In effect, the purpose of the scheme is not to put the person of limited means in the position of the person for whom "money is no object" but in the position of the person whose means, while not over-abundant, are sufficient to cover essential legal services.

Under the scheme applicants for legal services are liable to pay certain contributions. The minimum contribution is £3 for legal advice plus a further £16 where the applicant needs to take or defend court proceedings. An important feature of the contribution system is that, generally speaking, the individual applicant knows from the outset what the maximum cost of the legal service will be, even if he or she loses the action. In a small number of cases the contributions originally determined may be increased — for example, where the applicant's financial circumstances improve while he or she is in receipt of legal services, or where his or her financial circumstances change for the better as a result of obtaining such services.

There are three final points concerning contributions which are worthy of special mention. First, all persons depending solely on social welfare payments qualify for legal services on payment of the standard minimum contributions I have referred to, that is, £3 for advice plus a further £16 for representation in court. Further, a person who is liable to pay the minimum contributions may have the payments waived in whole or in part in cases of severe hardship. In addition, contributions may in certain circumstances be paid by instalments.

Certain matters, including representation before tribunals, are excluded from the scope of the existing scheme. This does not mean, however, that applicants seeking assistance for tribunal hearings are turned away from law centres. The situation is that law centre solicitors can, and regularly do, provide advice in connection with cases coming before tribunals. They do not provide representation at the actual tribunal hearing. If, however, the decision of the tribunal is appealed to the courts, both legal aid and advice may be provided. I will refer again to tribunal hearings later.

Other excluded matters under the existing scheme include defamation, debt collection where the applicant is the creditor, civil bills for sums below £150, election petitions, licensing matters and disputes concerning rights and interests over land and conveyancing, other than conveyancing which arises following a settlement of a matrimonial dispute or where the applicant suffers from an infirmity of mind or body and appears to have been the victim of fraud or undue influence.

So much for the existing scheme. I turn now to the main details of the Bill. Section 2 enables me, as Minister, by order to appoint a day to be the establishment day for the purposes of the Act. This is a standard provision in legislation of this nature. It allows for what I intend to be a fairly short period of time to elapse between the passing of the Act and its date of operation. This time will allow for regulations to be made under the Act and for the board to put in place the necessary measures for its operation as a statutory body.

Sections 3, 4 and 5 deal with the establishment of the Legal Aid Board and charge it with the function of providing, within the board's resources and subject to the provisions of the Act, legal aid and advice to applicants who satisfy those provisions. The board will be endowed with legal personality, thereby entitling it to be a party to legal actions and to hold legal title to property.

Section 4 continues the arrangement under which the Minister has power to appoint the board. It will consist of a chairperson and 12 ordinary members. Two members of the board must be barristers and two must be solicitors. For the first time, staff will be represented on the board. There will be two such representatives. I am ensuring that the board will have an appropriate gender balance. Not less than five members must be men and not less than five must be women.

As at present, the term of office of board members will be five years and no member will be able to serve more than two terms.

The principal function of the board, by virtue of section 5, will be to provide legal aid and advice in civil cases to individuals who satisfy the income eligibility criteria specified in section 29 and the other requirements of the Act. Under section 6, however, the Minister may assign additional related functions to the board. The board will be entitled to delegate functions to its members or its staff.

Section 7 empowers the Minister to issue general policy directives in relation to legal aid and advice to the board and requires the board to comply with such directives. This provision is necessary in view of my overall responsibility to the Oireachtas for policy in relation to legal aid. However, as at present, the board will have independence in the giving of legal aid and advice.

In section 9 I have dealt with the matter of annual reports and have adhered to the current practice of requiring the board to present such a report to the Minister in such form as the Minister may approve. The section requires the Minister to lay before the Houses of the Oireachtas copies of every such report. The Minister may also request that the board supply additional information as to the performance of its functions.

Section 10 provides for a chief executive officer of the board, who will be a civil servant of the State and will be appointed by the Minister on the recommendation of the Civil Service Commissioners.

Sections 11, 21 and 22 deal with matters relating to the other staff of the board. Those sections have been framed after lengthy discussions with five different trade unions as well as the board itself. The result of those discussions is one which I believe will satisfy all of the parties involved. It provides that the board's administrative and clerical staff will be civil servants in the Civil Service of the State. The board will be in a position to recruit staff through the Civil Service Commission — a development which it has sought for some considerable time. The board's solicitor staff will continue, as at present, without civil service status. However, the Bill enables me to designate them as civil servants following consultations with them and the consent of the Minister for Finance. Section 23 is a standard provision to safeguard the pensions of any members of the board's staff who do not ultimately become civil servants.

Sections 13 to 17 deal with a number of technical and practical matters which arise because of the legal identity which the board will have on enactment of the Bill. Section 14, for example, is a standard provision which transfers all property, rights and liabilities currently attaching to the non-statutory board to the new board, while section 15 serves to ensure that contracts entered into by the current non-statutory board are transferred to the new board.

Sections 18, 19 and 20 deal with matters relating to funding of the board and they empower the Minister, with the consent of the Minister for Finance, to advance funds to the new board and require it to establish and maintain a legal aid fund to finance all its operations.

I now come to the heart of the Bill — that part which deals with the provision of legal aid and advice. While the sections in question reflect the provisions of the existing scheme to a considerable extent, there are a number of significant changes which, I believe, will enhance the legal aid system in this country.

Section 24 maps out the primary test which an applicant for legal aid must pass in order to obtain such services. It requires that legal aid or advice will not be granted unless a reasonably prudent person, in similar circumstances, who could afford to pay for the services of lawyers in private practice would do so at their own expense, and a lawyer would be likely to advise them to do so.

Sections 25 and 26 concern legal advice, which is defined as legal assistance other than actual representation in court or any preparatory steps leading up to it. The board will, as at present, be precluded from providing legal advice in relation to criminal law matters, because, as Members will be aware, such matters are dealt with under the Criminal Justice (Legal Aid) Act, 1962. The board will, however, be allowed to continue the special arrangement under which legal advice, free of charge, is provided to complainants in rape and aggravated sexual assault cases.

Sections 27 and 28 deal with legal aid, which is defined as meaning representation by a solicitor or barrister nominated by the board in civil proceedings conducted in the District, Circuit, High or Supreme Courts or any court or tribunal prescribed by the Minister by order under section 27. The definition encompasses all such assistance as would normally be given to a client by a solicitor in private practice in relation to instituting, defending or concluding court proceedings, and it applies to all civil proceedings other than those referred to in section 28 as "designated matters". The designated matters are matters presently excluded from the scheme, such as defamation and conveyancing, other than conveyancing which arises out of a matrimonial dispute. However, in a significant departure from the scheme, I have, in subsection (11) of section 28, provided that the Minister may, by order, deem any of these matters as no longer being designated. I think the House will agree that present policy should be to direct funds to those cases where funds are most needed, to increase the number of law centres, to provide proper staffing levels and then to assess whether the Exchequer, having regard to various priorities, should extend funding to the board for all cases.

As has been the case since the inception of the scheme, applicants will only be provided with legal aid where they are granted legal aid certificates. The criteria for the granting of certificates are contained in section 28 and are on similar lines to those contained in the scheme. Special provisions, as at present operated under the scheme, will apply in the case of children.

The general test of merit is continued by the Bill and is supported by various other provisions in the scheme which are to the same general effect. There is provision, for example, that the applicant must have as a matter of law, reasonable grounds for taking, defending or being a party to proceedings, that it must be reasonable having regard to all the circumstances of the case to provide legal services and so on.

The relevance of the "merits" test will be apparent to practitioners; there is very little point in legally aiding a client where it is considered that, from a legal point of view, the client's case is totally lacking in merit and that legal services, no matter who may provide them, are unlikely to provide him or her with any worthwhile benefit.

In assessing whether a certificate of legal aid should be granted, the board will continue to be required to weigh the probable cost of providing legal aid against the benefit likely to accrue to the applicant as a result of the proceedings.

The board will also have discretion to refuse to grant legal aid certificates on certain specified grounds where, for example, the cost to the applicant of taking the proceedings without receiving legal aid would be less than the contribution payable by him to the board, or the applicant has failed to provide such information as is required by the board to make a decision on his or her application.

Section 29 deals with the critical matters of financial eligibility criteria and contributions. An applicant's eligibility and contribution will be assessed by reference to his or her disposable income and, where appropriate, disposable capital, in such a manner as is prescribed in regulations. In framing those regulations, I intend to look closely at the financial limits currently in place and would hope to be able to broaden those limits in order to increase the number of people who are eligible to receive legal aid and advice.

Section 30 of the Bill provides for the establishment of panels of solicitors and barristers who will be able to provide legal aid and advice to clients of the Legal Aid Board. The pilot project which I initiated last year was generally welcomed as being instrumental in helping to reduce the backlog of cases which existed because of underfunding and the lack of law centres and staff. Its operation is at present being reviewed by a committee appointed by the Legal Aid Board. Once the review group has reported, I will be in a position to determine how best the project should be used in the future to complement the work of the law centres.

Section 30 (6) is new. It will enable individual law centres, through different solicitors, to assist both parties to a case. In the past, such cases have been dealt with by separate centres with the result that clients of the board have, on occasion, to travel considerable distances to meet with their solicitors. I have taken the opportunity given by the Bill to tackle that problem. It will be of benefit particularly to persons who avail of law centres in the smaller towns. They will not now have to travel long distances to other centres.

Section 31 deals with the selection or nomination of lawyers to represent clients. Section 32 guarantees clients of the board the same rights as they would have should they have retained the services of solicitors in private practice, subject to one exception. That exception is that lawyers providing legal aid or advice will be obliged to pass on to the board any information which is necessary for the purpose of enabling the board to discharge its statutory functions.

Sections 33 to 36 deal with the matter of costs. To date the board, because of its non-statutory status, has had difficulties in recovering costs from non-legally aided parties. I am providing in the Bill that courts or tribunals should make orders for costs in the same way as they would in cases involving parties who are not legally aided. Section 34 points to a number of specific factors which should be taken into account by the courts in making such orders.

These then, Senators, are the main provisions in the Bill. I am delighted that the Bill has been initiated in the Seanad. Senators will not be unaware that this is the fourth Bill I have initiated in this House in two years.

I am not unaware.

I recall the interest taken by the House in this area when a special and fruitful debate was given to it early last year. I look forward to another fruitful debate now that the Bill is before the House. I commend the Bill to the House.

I welcome the Minister to the House again. I am not unaware that this is the fourth Bill he has initiated in the House, and I am particularly aware that this is the second Bill within two weeks with which I have had to grapple. Nonetheless, I welcome the fact that the Minister has decided to initiate a number of Bills in the Seanad.

The Fianna Fáil-Labour Programme for a Partnership Government, which we thought would run from 1993 to 1997, contained a specific commitment to place the present scheme on a statutory footing and to further extend it to tribunals. This legislation achieves this and for that reason I welcome the Bill. In his speech, the Minister stated that the present scheme exists because in 1979 the European Court of Human Rights ruled that as a Mrs. Airey could not obtain a legal separation because she could not afford legal representation, this was in breach of the Convention on Human Rights.

However, while I recognise the various improvements in this Bill, it has to be acknowledged that lack of finance is only one factor which prevents disadvantaged people, in particular, from making effective use of the legal system. With your permission, Sir, I would like to read into the record parts of an article from The Irish Times of 8 February 1995 by Gerry Whyte, who states that:

Two very different views exist as to the proper function of a civil legal aid scheme. In one view, civil legal aid is primarily about assisting individuals to litigate their claims. It is this perspective which arguably informs the proposed Bill. The other view, however, sees civil legal aid as primarily concerned with assisting disadvantaged individuals and communities and, moreover, engaging in activities other than litigation. Supporters of this view will find little of comfort in the proposed legislation....

For those who do not subscribe to the restricted understanding of civil legal aid, which arguably informs the Minister's proposals, the Bill is open to much more fundamental criticisms.

According to this view, disadvantaged individuals and communities are denied access to effective legal services, not only because of inadequate means, but also because they are unaware of their rights and because of the psychological or cultural barrier which exists between socially deprived clients and lawyers.

This analysis of the problem was shared by the Pringle Committee on Civil Legal Aid and Advice which, in its report, published, in 1977, recommended that a comprehensive scheme, addressing each of these problems, be introduced.

Thus the report recommended that a legal aid scheme should, in addition to providing legal advice and representation, also engage in "any appropriate activities in the community... which would be likely to enhance the status of the centre and would be consistent with the provision of a comprehensive legal aid and advice service for the community". He goes on to give an example of the Coolock Community Law Centre].

Moreover, such a scheme should locate its centres in disadvantaged communities and each centre should, where practicable, have a consultative committee consisting of, inter alia, representatives of the local community who would be in the majority.

This model of civil legal aid is much more responsive to the argument that the legal needs of disadvantaged communities are not necessarily best-served by the type of service traditionally provided by the private legal sector and also takes on board the reality that disadvantage is not only about lack of resources but also lack of control.

That view is also supported by the FLAC submission made last year to the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Women's Rights which stated: "For there to be effective access to justice, legal services must include education to counter this lack of knowledge." The main fear or reservation I have about this Bill is that, as it now appears, it fails that challenge completely.

The Bill does address the needs of individuals, in certain cases, to litigate their claims but it does not reach out to communities or marginalised groups in society to inform them and, more importantly, to involve them in their own system of justice. This Bill specifically excludes communities and that was a flaw with the 1980 scheme which was similarly restrictive.

I acknowledge that during the Labour/Fianna Fáil coalition this Minister put 56 to 58 per cent additional resources into the civil legal aid system. He was also responsible for opening additional centres and the involvement of private practitioners in the service to reduce the pressures on it. A positive aspect of this Bill is that it covers tribunals as well as setting a gender balance for the composition of the board and including staff members on the board and it mentions that advice will be given in rape cases. Unfortunately, it does not go on to provide that legal aid will be automatically given in these cases.

In order to strengthen the Bill we should look at what it excludes. It excludes defamation, debt collection, disputes concerning rights and interests in or over land, civil matters within the jurisdiction of the District Court, licensing, conveyancing and election petitions. Whatever about election petitions some of the other matters give me great cause for concern.

The explanatory memorandum states that the board will exclude cases which in its opinion constitute test cases. It is specifically that type of case which has caused uproar and disquiet throughout this country. I refer to the arrears of social welfare case. The court recently decided that arrears were payable to married women who had been discriminated against by the social welfare system. This type of case is not covered by this legislation and that is a major flaw in the Bill. It is another indication that it serves a narrow individual need and not the needs of communities and groups, particularly marginalised groups in society.

I cannot understand the exclusion of defamation. The Minister may in his reply or on Committee Stage explain why it should be excluded. Some of the areas defined as designated matters may be deemed unconstitutional. Disputes concerning rights or interests in or over land is one such matter. This Minister has responsibility for equality and the rights of travellers. There is no doubt that this specific exemption could be said to affect travellers. In that respect it may be deemed to be unconstitutional and should be examined.

Section 28(3) states:

Where the proceedings the subject matter of the application under this section concern the welfare of (including the custody of or access to) a child, paragraphs (c) and (e) of subsection (2) shall not apply.

The Minister previously introduced legislation to allow for adoptive leave. I have had correspondence from various groups but I specifically have notice of two cases where adoption orders were not completed and the final consent not given. In one case the child was nine years old and the mother had still not given final consent. The other case involved a shorter period but there was similar hardship to the families involved.

The adoptive parents association in a submission informed me even though the concept of illegitimacy is no longer in use, civil legal aid was not available, regardless of income, to parents who had to take a case to the appropriate court to have the application completed and finalised. All such cases were paid for out of the resources of the adopting parents. However, if the State has to bring a family to court where the child is deemed to be legitimate, the State can go from the District Court through to the Supreme Court if necessary and the State will foot the Bill.

I will make the details available to the Minister because it is a little sketchy in my mind. I may be misrepresenting it but that was the core of the submission. There is a huge injustice in this area. If this subsection of section 28 addresses the welfare of children we may need to examine that area.

I am told that even under the existing scheme, they would have been eligible in the circumstances the Senator described.

Only if they came within the means.

Yes, of course.

This case involves costs of about £8,000. If the child is not legally the child of that family, they are taking on the responsibility of the State to finalise a legal arrangement. I will make the details available to the Minister.

Thank you.

He can examine it and see where it could be dealt with best.

At present 75 per cent of cases at law centres are taken by women. As the Minister stated, this Bill is part of a series of legislation being put in place prior to the divorce referendum. If the divorce referendum is carried by the people and we introduce legislation allowing for divorce, we can reasonably assume that the number of cases presenting at legal aid centres will grow.

It is no harm to look at the existing position. I again acknowledge that this Minister fought his corner in the last Government and I have no doubt he will continue within the existing framework to ensure he gets funding as required. It is necessary to examine the existing situation even with that additional funding.

The Legal Aid Board made a submission to the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Women's Right correcting an article which had appeared in a national newspaper. This constitutes a balanced view. These are not wild statements which was how the board described the newspaper report. This submission was made in 1994 and states that the demand for legal services under the Scheme of Civil Legal Aid and Advice exceeds the capacity of the board to meet the demand. To be fair to the board they were writing to correct a report by FLAC which suggested that the situation was far more serious.

The board's reports from 1987, 1988 and 1989 stated:

The reality is that a great many people who are badly in need of legal services, mainly in relation to family law matters, are being denied justice because of the Board's inadequate resources.

FLAC in its submission stated that in 1992 the board provided legal services in 1,418 cases of domestic violence. We are now dealing with new areas of family law including the Bill the Minister introduced last week and the six others he intends to introduce. If, where funding has been increased, the services are already under pressure, I wonder what will happen in the future.

The piece refuted by the Legal Aid Board appeared in the Irish Independent. What was not refuted was the statement by Ms Greene of FLAC that spending on legal aid in Ireland was among the lowest in the EU even with the recent 56 per cent increase in funds. Statistics were given for delays or waiting periods which did not concur with those given by Ms Greene. One must accept that one often has to wait for services but these delays ranged from four weeks to five months. This morning I was informed that a person in Malahide will wait 12 months before a legal separation case will be taken.

I acknowledge what the Minister has done but it is obvious that existing facilities and services are still heavily taxed. Perhaps I am misreading the legislation — and I will bow to the superior knowledge of the Minister and other Members on this issue — but the final line of the explanatory memorandum states: "The Bill has no financial or staffing implications. It will not involve any additional charge on the Exchequer." The Bill is lacking because it does not embrace a community need, but we are only fooling ourselves if we think that putting something on a statutory footing, which is inadequate and does not provide for additional staff or funding, will make a difference. With the best intentions in the world, the Programme for a Partnership Government or A Government of Renewal will mean nothing if resources are not available to support the worthy aspirations of this Bill.

The Minister's speech, which I will examine on Committee Stage, outlines the general criteria for eligibility. Adopting couples qualify under the existing scheme, if they have £8,000 or £10,000 to pursue their case. The criteria in the Bill is hazy. Section 24 (a) states:

... a reasonably prudent person, whose means were such that the cost of seeking such services at his or her own expense, while representing a financial obstacle to him or her would not be such as to impose undue hardship upon him or her, would be likely to seek such services in such circumstances at his or her own expense, and....

Perhaps the Minister could incorporate what he said in his speech in the Bill because this would strengthen it. I am a legislator, yet I do not understand the general description, which, perhaps, applies to criminal legal aid. I will discuss other issues in the Bill in detail on Committee Stage.

Section 4 (4) (b) states: "Each member of the Board shall act on a part-time basis save where the Minister, on being satisfied that it is necessary to do so in the interest of the proper functioning of the Board and with the consent of the Minister for Finance, appoints any such member or members to act on a fulltime basis." Last November various claims and accusations were made that the reason for the problems in the Office of the Attorney General was because the Attorney General worked on a part-time basis. That was subsequently denied at the Select Committee on Legislation and Security by the then Attorney General. Why then is this section included in the Bill? If we want the best statutory legal aid board, we should not consider part-time work. In contradiction, section 11 states that "An office of the Board shall, upon his or her appointment as such, be a civil servant in the Civil Service of the State." I do not know any civil servants, even those sitting behind the Minister who do not work on a part-time basis, who are afforded that status on the basis of working part-time. That is an administrative problem. The same applies to solicitors employed by the board.

To what section is the Senator referring?

Section 11 (4).

I always had problems with the law during the few times I was in court because people who were represented by their solicitors or barristers believed that some of them, with all due respect to Senator Gallagher and the Minister, did not listen to or take on board the important points of their case. I know a barrister or solicitor must argue a point of law, but that is a fundamental flaw in our legal system. Winning a point of law often means a complete lack of justice for the person bringing a case.

I have raised this issue in relation to family law matters. I was appointed to the committee of court practices and procedures and, to the horror of its members, I suggested that individuals should be allowed to make their own cases, particularly in family law matters. The learned judges and solicitors were shocked at my suggestion. Members of the legal profession are reluctant to allow lay people to become involved and this means that the best case is not always made. Judges will say that if they allow this to happen, it will take approximately three months to hear one case and this would result in a backlog. However, people should be allowed to get involved, particularly in family law cases. I could not argue company law, but I am sure I could make a reasonable case in court if it involved a family law case. That is not provided for in this Bill.

Section 31 (4) states that the person to whom the board has given legal aid does not have the right to change his or her solicitor. However, subsection (5) states that "A solicitor.... at his or her discretion, nominate another solicitor". This is another major flaw in the legislation. I know of numerous cases where people received insufficient service from their solicitors, but when they complained to the Incorporated Law Society they got no satisfaction. This Bill enshrines in law a solicitor's right to give shoddy service, but the consumer has no right to demand a different solicitor. Yet the solicitor, at his or her discretion, can ask someone else to take their case. That does not show equality between the practitioner and the user of the service.

Section 34 refers to costs and states that the board should operate on a cost effective basis. However, when the board is looking for costs, it must include the time devoted to the case and the salaries, fees and other expenses paid to the staff of the board. This means that civil legal aid is more expensive than availing of a solicitor's services because one is only paying for the services of that solicitor's office and not for the fees and salaries of a board. We have enshrined in law that civil legal aid will be more expensive than contracting out the work.

I look forward to debating the Bill on Committee Stage. There are problems with it, the fundamental one being that it does not attempt to change the system from an individual based litigation service to a community based system. It does not ask the board to undertake education or information campaigns.

One can make parallels with the health service. There have been radical changes there and it has been acknowledged an effective service deals with curing as well as prevention. A legal aid system should concern itself with more than merely facilitating litigation. This Bill falls short on that requirement but there are other problems with it.

I welcome the Minister and congratulate him on initiating the Bill in this House. We are always pressing for legislation to be initiated here and we should acknowledge when a Minister decides to do so. I welcome the Bill which puts civil legal aid and advice on a statutory footing. I compliment the Civil Legal Aid Board which has administered that scheme on a non-statutory basis since it was established in 1979 with funds from the Exchequer.

It is an issue of natural justice that citizens with limited means should have access to justice in civil matters; this is particularly true for family court issues. It is important that services of solicitors and, where necessary, barristers are available to persons of modest means at as little cost as possible; otherwise our justice system would be unavailable to a large section of our society.

It is also important that the service includes anything from writing letters on behalf of clients to representing them in court. While solicitors in the law centres also provide legal services on a part time basis in community centres, etc. the service in rural areas has not developed and is unsatisfactory. The Minister is dealing with this problem and making legal advice available in more regions.

Eligibility for the present scheme is based on disposable rather than gross income. It can be frustrating for people with a small disposable income but a reasonable gross income to be excluded from assistance by the State. We encounter this every day as public representatives. I know of a third level student who is ineligible for grants because his parents have a high gross income; however there are long-standing debts which the family are forced to repay so they have a low net income. The local authority cannot take these extraordinary circumstances into account when making assessments for educational grants and other services — everything is based on gross rather than disposable income.

The approach of the legal aid board is that eligibility for legal services under the scheme depends on disposable income, which is what people have after allowances are made for dependants, rents, mortgage, hire purchase repayments and other outgoings. The Bill indicates the Minister will decide by ministerial order what the deductions will be. He should examine the present arrangement which is working well.

The civil legal aid scheme covers most types of civil proceedings. In reality, to date it has been confined because of its resources to family law matters. These include proceedings involving barring, maintenance, custody, access, judicial separation and nullity. In 1994 the board opened additional law centres so each county now has a full time or part time law centre. However, as I said, it is not available in rural towns and villages apart from the larger towns. The funding for 1995 is welcome. The allocation by the Government of £6.2 million represents a 25 per cent increase on the £5 million funding in 1994. This should be used to further extend the services of the board in areas where they are not available.

Special tribute should be paid to the work of the free legal advise centres, FLAC. This voluntary organisation, which is involved in campaigning for access to the courts and the establishment of a comprehensive scheme of civil legal aid and advice, does much good work. FLAC also endeavours to provide legal assistance to those areas not covered by the State scheme of civil legal aid and advice, especially in employment and social welfare matters. It is involved in the provision of information and campaigns for law reform in these areas.

The Bill places the board on a full statutory basis, which is overdue. FLAC is critical of how the free legal aid scheme has developed as a service dealing exclusively with family law representation. This is clear from the annual statistics. The most recent figures available are for 1992. In that year 1,791 legal aid certificates were awarded in family law cases and only 63 certificates in other cases. The 25 per cent increase in the Government contribution should improve this position.

The present situation which is regrettable is due to a number of factors. First, certain areas of law are outside the remit of the scheme. Second, the board has no role in educating the public as to their rights and obligations at law. Third, the law centres operate independently of the community in which they serve. I am reflecting some of the points made by Senator McGennis in stating this.

In future legislation the Minister should consider creating community based law centres similar to Coolock Community Law Centre. In the original scheme of civil legal aid there was a provision for community consultative committees to be set up. Such committees should be empowered to consider conferring additional duties on individual law centres. The legal aid board, as it exists, has no role in the education of the people it serves. Education is a fundamental part of a full legal service package. Equal access to justice requires that all members of society should be aware of their rights and obligations.

From my reading of the Bill it appears the Minister is empowered to extend legal aid to tribunals by order. To date people qualifying for legal aid on a means test could not get assistance or representation on the Employment Appeals Tribunal or the Social Welfare Appeals Tribunal. As a member of the EAT, I am worried that these tribunals are becoming more legalistic and there is over-involvement by lawyers.

Initially those tribunals were established as an informal setting where people could make their claims — the less involved the legal profession was, the better. This has now totally changed. In most sittings of the EAT when I am involved, both sides are represented by a barrister and a solicitor. This is expensive, especially for the climant who has often suffered dismissal. The average award by the tribunal last year was in the region of £4,000. If a large legal bill comes out of that, the net benefit is small.

I was involved with the tribunal at its establishment in 1977. Then one would rarely see a solicitor or barrister at a hearing. If people were represented, an employee would invariably be represented by a trade union official and a company by an industrial relations official of the FUE, now known as IBEC. It has totally changed and the legal representation is the same as in a court.

The new chairperson of the tribunal, Ms Mary Flaherty, who is a barrister, has stated she would like to see the tribunal reverting to being less formal. I hope that will happen but I will not hold my breath.

The objective of the new board, and the operation of the system of free civil legal aid, must be towards the attainment of equal access to justice for all members of society. This can only be done by a combination of services and education and community involvement. I commend the Minister for introducing the Bill and look forward to the debate on Committee Stage.

I welcome the Minister and this Bill. It is splendid that so much of the Minister's legislation is being initiated in the Seanad. We get the first bite of the cherry on such occasions.

It is noteworthy that the Second Commission on the Status of Women devoted the first chapter of its report to constitutional and legal issues. One of the most important statements was at the beginning of that chapter in which the commission compared Article 3 of the 1922 Constitution with Article 40.1 in the 1937 Constitution. The report stated that Article 3 of the 1922 Constitution provided that "every person without distinction of sex, domiciled or born as provided therein, is a citizen of the Irish Free State and shall within the jurisdiction of the Irish Free State enjoy the privileges and be subject to the obligations of such legislation". In the 1937 Constitution on the other hand, Article 40.1 states "All citizens shall as human persons be held equal before the law. This shall not be held to mean that the State shall not in its enactments have due regard to differences of capacity, physical and moral, and of social function."

The commission went on to point out that equality before the law has been impossible for Irish women because the exclusion of the phrase "without distinction of sex" in the 1937 Constitution was extremely important. It was important not just from the point of view of the privileges of the law but of the obligations of the law. It had a dampening effect on the equality of women. Even on the international stage we felt obliged to follow up these matters. In 1986, when this country acceded to the United Nations Convention on the Elimination of Discrimination against Women, Ireland entered some reservations. One of these reservations related to the area of financial credit. When one thinks of how important finance is with regard to the law, one realised that could only have militated against women having equal access to the law in this country.

Equality before the law was impossible for many Irish women because it depended on money. In many situations women were not economically independent; they depended on male relatives for financial assistance. While this Bill is to be welcomed by all citizens it must be welcomed in particular by women and especially by mothers. As other Senators have pointed out, since the civil legal aid scheme was set up in 1979 it has been used mainly by women. Sadly, it has been used most often in the area of family law. About 95 per cent of the cases which have gone to court with the assistance of civil legal aid have been in the area of family law and mainly to secure barring orders, judicial separations, maintenance orders and access orders. Almost all cases have been initiated by women.

The introduction of free civil legal aid, after the Airey case, was extremely important. However, another change in the legal area has been a great increase in the number of women involved in the courts system since the then Senator Mary Robinson brought the Airey case to the Court of Human Rights. Until about 20 years ago — despite the fact that wigs and gowns were the order of the day in the courts — the legal system was virtually male dominated. This made it appear user un-friendly to women. Senator McGennis was right to point out the cultural and sociological differences between the clients of the law and the practitioners in the courts. This has changed a little. However, there has been a definite change in the authoritarian figures in our courts with, for example, the appointment of a woman to the Supreme Court and the appointment of women to the High Court and to the district courts. There has also been a large increase in the number of women barristers and solicitors, due probably, to a large extent, to the CAO which ensured——

Do not forget Judge Catherine McGuinness in the Circuit Court.

Thank you for reminding me. As I will be meeting her tomorrow I would not like to have omitted her.

This change has been very important. Women now see the law as being more friendly. It was very intimidating for 50 per cent of clients — and far more than 50 per cent in family law cases — to see that the law was represented totally by the other gender.

I was delighted to see that the Legal Aid Board, like other boards being appointed by the Government, will have a gender balance. That is very important. President Robinson spoke in Strasbourg recently about the necessity for women to become more active and to be more visible in public life. As she said, a quota system really should not be necessary but sometimes it is. Recently I read the obituaries for the American politician, Senator Fulbright. While I always admired his foreign policies I was somewhat doubtful about his domestic political policies, particularly on racial issues. Senator Fulbright used to say that he liked to rely on the slow conversion of the human heart. The heart sometimes is slow to convert and the head can be even worse. Sometimes a slove in the right direction is no harm. I am glad that the Minister has included this provision with regard to the Legal Aid Board.

It was not just the staff in the courts who were all male. Until 1976, when Mairín de Burca took her case against the then Attorney General, the juries were totally male in composition. I do not know how anybody could describe that as being judged by one's peers. Until then women could automatically ask to be eliminated from juries. This was really unfair to those who were to be judged. If one is to be judged by one's peers, I presume women would like to see a certain proportion of the jury being women as well.

The Bill is extensive and there are few matters in it about which one might quibble. Senator McGennis and Senator Neville have mentioned some of them. One particularly good point relates to matrimonial cases. Partners can now go to the same legal aid centre but they will be represented by different solicitors. Previously, this was a difficult issue for people in matrimonial cases. While I am aware that the Minister has extended the number of legal aid centres, if a case was being taken in a small country town it meant that one or other partner had to travel quite a distance to get legal aid to engage another solicitor.

The Minister has explained the extension of aid to tribunals whereby advice will be given but not representation. He apparently intends to make an order at some date in the near future under which legal representation can be made also. I would be pleased if that order could be made now or at least at a specific date. I am always anxious about the near future — it can sometimes be a long time away. I often think that it is great to have a deadline in life so that at least when it is reached and one has not achieved his or her objective, one knows that one has failed. However, if one does not have a deadline it is often too easy for things to be put on the back burner.

Another point I wish to discuss and which Senator McGennis covered very ably is the importance of the involvement of communities, a good example of which is the Coolock Community Centre. It makes solicitors appear less remote if many people from the community are involved. In addition, they may have made suggestions as to the most important legal issues in their area. In this respect, I was surprised on one occasion, in view of the many family law cases, when some people seeking additional legal aid told me that debt defence was an important area. Without this kind of knowledge from the community it is sometimes difficult to know what is needed.

It is a pity also that some areas have been excluded, such as defamation, property disputes, the small consumer claims of under £150 and debt collection. However, I am pleased to note, and perhaps many solicitors could take this on board, that the Minister has decided to allow the solicitors involved in dealing with cases to decide whether they have merit. This is a good point, because quite often nowadays there is even criticism in the courts regarding cases brought which judges consider not of sufficient merit to come before the court.

Giving information to the public is important and I am sorry the Legal Aid Board will not have more of a role in this. It is very hard to ask for one's rights to be enforced if one does not know them. In this respect, FLAC did a survey a few years ago and found that a very large proportion of people did not know their rights. While there is a leaflet in the citizen's advice centres, we have been talking about the establishment of one stop shops on social welfare, employment and so forth in the Forum for Social and Economic Progress. Perhaps in this context the Minister would consider establishing, if not an entire legal aid centre, then some kind of legal officer who could attend these one stop shops at certain times to advise people of their rights. Even the distribution of leaflets in these centres may be important.

That people will not be in a position to attend schools and community groups to give lectures is a pity, because often major public issues, which affect that community only and which may have legal implications, need to be discussed and it would be a good idea if the legal aid centres were in a position to give some help to the community.

We all owe a great debt of gratitude to people who work and have worked in the free legal aid centres, and to all the private lawyers who have worked on a pro bono basis for so many people. I am pleased to note the Minister has stressed the use of private solicitors in cases, because this is rather like the extension of the general medical service, where people have a choice of doctor. It made an enormous psychological difference to people to be able to decide who they would attend and who would take their cases. This is especially welcome, because there is a bit too much of the dispensary, or poor house idea when the State decides whom one must attend.

Like Senator McGennis, I believe the scheme will need more money, because of this most justified extension to it. Senator McGennis referred to delays. Justice has to be done, but as we all know, it has to be seen to be done swiftly. Delay in cases of violence and in cases which involve children always worries me. In this area, the Minister will have to keep fighting his corner — as he has done so ably to date — to get more money for the legal aid scheme. The extension of access will highlight the need. While we hear a great deal about the waiting lists in the health service, the waiting lists in the legal aid service are as serious, and I hope they will be addressed by the provision of more finance to the Minister's Department under the Bill.

I welcome the Minister to the House. This is his fourth Bill initiated in the House a trend for which we have called. The Minister is a brave man to have done this, given that we are in a minority on this side of the House. Obviously, he has great confidence that the Bill will be carried.

Only yesterday Members spoke at length on the provisions of the Family Law Bill introduced by the Minister. In examining existing legislation, including proposed legislation such as the Family Law Bill, it is clear that certain areas of law are being greatly expanded. In this respect, family law is probably the fastest growing area of law in the country, and many people find themselves in the unhappy circumstance which require legal assistance, through the need for maintenance, barring orders, protection and so on.

In recognising the growing complexities of our lives, and in responding through statutory means, we see an ever increasing need for legal assistance and redress. The Minister recognised this growing need and the expense attached to it, by providing in other legislation greater jurisdiction for the District and Circuit Court.

This move towards more and more cases, especially in family law matters, being heard at local level reduces legal costs and serves the parties involved much better. It means that those involved in cases do not have to wait until the Circuit and High Court attend their area to have the matter heard. It also means that access to the law is provided on a much more local and convenient level. However, most importantly, it reduces the costs of such cases and I therefore welcome these moves.

With regard to hearing family law cases I note that Senator McGennis referred to the need to have the people involved make their own cases in court In my experience I find this happens and judges in family courts give much leeway to the parties to speak as the wish and represent themselves. I am sure the Senator will be happy to not that there is leniency in that regard.

I am glad to hear it

I am concerned that retraining may be necessary for judges, to help them keep up with the ever changing and ever progressing areas of family law. Furthermore, it is expected that if a divorce referendum is approved, there will be approximately 70,000 couples applying for it directly thereafter. I am aware this is a matter for the Minister for Justice, but I hope provision for more family courts will be made to deal with such circumstances.

As the number of laws, and their application increase, so also does the need for access to the legal system. As I have remarked before in the House, there is little point in providing rights for individuals, while those who require the assistance of the law to vindicate such rights cannot afford it. In this respect, access to the law, as we well know, means much more than just being given rights on paper.

I know these concerns are shared by the Minister, and he took them on board in his usual practical fashion by, immediately after his appointment, ensuring that the allocation to the Legal Aid Board was greatly increased. Since 1992, the funding to the board increased by 131 per cent. Indeed, I welcome the increase this year by a further 24 per cent. In effect, the Government is putting its money where its mouth is.

With this, we see a more than 100 per cent increase in the staff of the board since July 1993, and I note further staff increases are expected this year following the enactment of the Bill. This increase in staffing was badly needed to reduce waiting lists and the pressure on existing staff, many of whom have given generously of their time and expertise, over and above the call of duty, in the past.

Above all, I congratulate the Minister on bringing legal aid to the citizens of this country, and Senator Henry referred to this. In this respect, Senator McGennis spoke of solicitors working on a part time basis. My understanding is that at centres which operate on a part-time basis the solicitors are employed full time. They work part time in one centre and spend the rest of their working week in another centre so that, effectively, they are full-time members.

I think the Bill states it is the board more than the employees.

That might cover it. When I first spoke in the House on this matter I pointed out to the Minister that people in my area of Cavan and Monaghan had no facilities for legal aid. The nearest centres then were Dundalk or Dublin which simply was not practical. It is unreasonable to expect people to travel 40, 60 or 70 miles for a service which they badly need. Furthermore, people who need legal aid are obviously those with limited means. They often do not possess a car and the cost of public transport is prohibitive. How can a woman be expected to travel with her toddler and a buggy on the 8 o'clock bus to Dundalk for an appointment at 11 o'clock and then wait all day to get the bus home? The harsh realities which people face in trying to get assistance are not always recognised by those lucky enough to live in areas where services are readily available. Therefore, I congratulate the Minister on providing a full time legal centre in Monaghan town and a part time one in Cavan town, for which I am particularly grateful.

The fact that the Minister already increased the number of law centres from 35 to 42, with two more due to open shortly and even more planned, is ample evidence that he has worked very hard and has already achieved great success in improving access to the law. This is the crux of this Bill. It is 20 years since the European Court of Human Rights found in favour of Mrs. Airey by deciding that our legal system did not then provide proper and adequate access to the law, in that we did not have a proper system of civil legal aid. It is obvious that the Governments of that time did not readily accept that judgment with delight because, after all, it took them a further six years to establish a basic administrative scheme of civil legal aid. The Minister can take pride in having tackled the limits of access to our law and in bringing forward this long awaited legislation in the interests of all those who rely on the State in their pursuit of justice. I know that it is a day of celebration for many.

As already stated, this Bill places the board on a statutory basis thereby giving it a separate legal identity and a guarantee of permanence for the future. Most of the sections are, therefore, enabling to allow for the smooth changeover in status. It appears to be very comprehensive in covering the make up and powers of the board, the continuing entitlements of the staff, the transfer of assets and liabilities, the continuance of work and so on. Perhaps it does not make very exciting reading, but it provides for what is needed.

To take up the point made by Senator Henry, I am particularly delighted with the provision which smacks of Labour Party policy. Section 4 requires at least five women on the new board. It is not long — January 1992 — since the then Fianna Fáil Minister for Justice, Deputy Ray Burke, saw fit to appoint four men to fill vacancies on an already all male board. Sadly, that is not unusual. We know, for example, that the Minister, Deputy Quinn, had great difficulty in getting 40 per cent representation on the country enterprise boards, which have yet to be established.

In dealing with the legal aid board, it must be remembered that three quarters of the clients of law centres are women, yet their views have no representation on the body regulating the entire system. It is not just a matter of appointing women for the sake of having them there; they have an important role in that people from that board form the committees which deal with appeals, certification, etc. An important aspect of this Bill is the inclusion of proper representation for women on the board and I particularly welcome the Minister's efforts in this regard.

The general criteria for a grant of legal aid and advice have been somewhat eased in this Bill. In practice there is adequate flexibility in this area and I am quite happy with it. However, I ask that provision be made for the regular review of income limits and other criteria in deciding whether a person is entitled to legal aid. It is important to keep an eye on this area on a continuing basis.

Previous speakers referred to the scope of legal aid. While legal aid already applies to a wide area of law, the statistics show it is predominantly used in family law cases. As stated, 1,791 legal aid certificates were issued in family law cases and only 63 in other cases. Some would argue for the extension of the powers to cover defamation. land disputes, etc., but obviously, the demand for coverage in those areas would not be huge. Nonetheless, I hope that the new board will examine the possibilities at a future date and I note what the Minister said in that regard.

The provisions in this Bill allowing for the application of legal aid to cases brought under the landlord and tenant legislation, proceedings relating to the family home, the defence of a counter claim for defamation and certain other matters broaden the scope of legal aid considerably. Furthermore, I welcome the fact that the board can now provide free legal advice to complainants in rape and aggravated sexual assault cases. This is a practical provision which will assist victims of such appalling acts by allowing them to get some advice on what to do and where to go. Obviously, some thought went into this area and I believe that the provision will be appreciated by women who, unfortunately, find themselves in circumstances which warrant it.

Overall, the scope of the board has been carefully extended to cover areas where it is most needed. It should also be noted that the small claims procedure, which is now available through the district courts throughout the country, plays a very important role in providing access to the law in circumstances where otherwise the legal cost involved would outweigh the benefit. It is yet another method by which justice is being served in a practical fashion.

In relation to the infamous waiting list for civil legal aid, it is known that matters have improved greatly in this area. As the Minister said, the extension of the law centres and the increase in solicitors and staff employed by the board has helped a great deal. It should also be noted that the Minister's private practitioners' scheme operated very well in relieving waiting lists. This scheme allowed private solicitors to accept cases from those entitled to legal aid, thus representing them without delay, and to receive recompense subsequently through the court. In fact, there will probably be a need for such a scheme in the future, particularly in areas which are not yet well serviced by such centres.

Many solicitors have given and continue to give free legal advice and assistance to many people. In fact, it is part and parcel of a solicitor's work, particularly in smaller towns. While everybody likes to report stories of the big, bad, money grabbing solicitor, it is fair to point out that many solicitors spend much of their time filling out forms for farmers and pensioners, giving advice to people who call in or telephone with a query, writing letters relating to minor matters, acting as counsellors in family cases or for people who are distraught, and all free. This is accepted as part of the job by many solicitors for which they deserve some recognition.

There is a need for information in relation to the law and one's rights, generally. It sometimes seems that people are well aware of their rights and often anticipate the amount which their claim may be worth. It is said that we are one of the most claims conscious countries in Europe. On the other hand, as Senator Henry said, a large section of our community are more vulnerable and less knowledgeable and often do not know their rights or where to go. When they are wronged they are often the most reluctant to seek redress.

As I said, many solicitors give free advice and I recognise that the Legal Aid Board also plays a certain role in this area. As stated, FLAC has provided a vital service, although not on a sufficiently wide basis as to be available to everybody and must be congratulated for its work over the years. However, I would welcome the establishment of a nationwide citizens' information system or a one stop shop system. They have an important role to play in distributing vital information, not just on legal rights and services, but also many other areas, such as consumer rights.

As politicians, we know only too well that information and assistance is often sought from us through clinics. This could and should be independently provided. This system has often been used by politicians to give leeway whereby people, who may not have been aware of their rights, have to bow down to the politician who has ultimately informed them of their rights. They are expected to deliver their thanks in the form of a vote at a later date when this information was and should have been available to them.

Debate adjourned.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

When is it proposed to sit again?

On Wednesday, 22 February 1995, at 2.30 p.m.

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