East Timor: Motion.

Mr. Norris

I move:

That Seanad Éireann, in pursuance of the motion of 16 November 1994 in the Portuguese Parliament:

(1) firmly repudiates the occupation of East Timor by Indonesia and the crimes systematically perpetrated by the respective police and military authorities to the patriots of that martyred and heroic territory;

(2) regrets the persisting climate of terror and repression endured by the Timorese citizens for so many years — unresigned and unsubmissive;

(3) again draws the attention of the international community to the inalienable right of the people of East Timor to self-determination; which the Constitution of the Portuguese Republic safeguards and the Portuguese support;

(4) in particular, firmly condemns the serious violations of human rights that have been perpetrated in East Timor and

(5) urges the release of all Timorese political prisoners, especially of Commander Xanana Gusmao.

I welcome the Tánaiste to the House. He is a frequent visitor to the Seanad. I am glad he has come for this important debate on East Timor because he has taken a personal and practical interest in this situation. I salute him and the officials from the Department of Foreign Affairs for their assistance in this regard. Because I am non-partisan, I must say that his predecessor, Deputy Andrews, also showed characteristic courage, forthrightness and decency in handling this scandalous situation.

The debate is aimed at getting all party support for a strong resolution already passed by the Portuguese Parliament in condemnation of the crimes committed by the Indonesian dictatorship against a defenceless people in East Timor. The Portuguese Parliament is constantly in touch either with myself or with the East Timor Ireland Solidarity Campaign. It passed on this resolution to me, which we translated and which comprehensively covers the situation.

The situation in East Timor is a painful case — to use the title of a James Joyce short story — involving the collaboration of nations whom we regard as friendly and as allies in Europe, such as Great Britain and France and also, most regrettably, Australia, with which we have so many ties of history and blood. Australia has been arraigned this past month at the International Court of Justice in The Hague for its gross violation of international law and morality in its illegal determination to join forces with the Indonesian dictatorship in plundering the helpless people of that small neglected island.

I visited the IPU conference in Canberra a year ago and I spoke about East Timor in the presence of the then Foreign Minister, Mr. Gareth Evans. The reaction was interesting because many Australian parliamentarians were also horrified by the foreign policy objectives of the government. I did a series of radio and television interviews subsequently and I got an overwhelming response from the ordinary Australian people. There is a clear divide between the feelings of ordinary decent Australian people and politicians and the cynical economically driven motivation of Australian foreign policy in this area.

Recently in this House we held a moving and dignified commemoration of the 50th anniversary of the liberation of Auschwitz. At the time of the Holocaust politicians throughout the world feigned ignorance of what was happening to the Jews of Europe. We now know that such claims of ignorance were ill founded. Policy makers in key positions in the Allied Governments were fully aware of exactly what crimes were being perpetrated, but cynically chose to bury such information. As a result, it did not get out to the population.

In the case of East Timor, as a result of the work, not of governments — although Ireland can claim to have a reasonably honourable record — but of individual journalists like Mr. John Pilger, who is getting an honorary degree in Dublin City University on Saturday, and of groups of ordinary citizens like Mr. Tom Hyland of the East Timor Ireland Solidarity Campaign, no Government in Europe or throughout the world can make any credible claim to be ignorant of the genocide still being committed against the people of East Timor. It is estimated that one third of the civilian population of East Timor has been exterminated by the Indonesian forces. Once again we are confronted with the self-importance of a Machiavellian elite within European, Australian and Japanese Governments which place their understanding of the long term armaments, economic and foreign policy interests of their country above the clearly expressed wishes of their people and of the claims of the most basic appreciation of human rights codes, common decency, morality and international law.

Not alone do we have the bloody reality of the Dili massacre, there is also the moral squalor of the Timor Gap Treaty. This treaty was signed in 1989 by the Indonesian Foreign Minister, Ali Alatas, and his Australian counterpart, Mr. Gareth Evans. The treaty allows Australian and international oil companies to exploit the seabed off East Timor. It is estimated that there are several billion barrels of oil in this region or, in the words of the Australian Foreign Minister, Mr. Gareth Evans, "zillions of dollars". One must ask what is the price of decency and of the self respect of the Australian nation.

The Australians will get another buffeting in UCD almost contemporaneously with this discussion in the Seanad because it is being discussed at a meeting of one of the major societies there. I understand that officials from the Australian Embassy will attend and I doubt if they will be satisfied with what they hear from the audience, if I know the students from UCD, which I do.

Mr. O'Toole

The Senator does not represent them.

Mr. Norris

I might one day.

The Timor Gap Treaty was signed during a flight over East Timor. When Mr. Evans was questioned about the internationally accepted principle of not recognising territory acquired by force, his response was: "What I can say simply is that the world is a pretty unfair place". This is a strange principle on which to base the ethics of foreign policy.

The degree to which attitudes are tailored to suit circumstances can be gauged from the fact that before the invasion of East Timor by Indonesia, Mr. Gough Whitlam, the then Australian Prime Minister, declared that East Timor would be too poor for viable independence. Before the invasion and before they realised that there were vast economic resources to be exploited, the justification for the invasion by the Indonesians was that it was too poor to survive on its own. Quite the contrary now appears to be the fact. It is now too rich to survive. East Timor is, apparently, too well endowed in natural resources to be allowed independence by powerful and greedy neighbours. It seems that the world, in terms of most of its foreign ministers, is prepared to stand idly by because of the economic significance of the Pacific rim nations.

Professor Roger Clarke of Rutgers University in the United States is one of the leading experts in maritime law. On the subject of the Timor Gap Treaty, he says:

it is acquiring stuff from a thief. If you acquire property from someone who stole it, you are a receiver. As far as I am concerned the Indonesians are in the position of someone who stole territory, and the Australians are dealing with them as though they had some kind of legitimacy. I find that that is complicity. The fact is that the Indonesians have neither legal, nor historical, nor moral claim to East Timor or its resources.

Moreover, the obligation not to recognise the acquisition of territory acquired illegally is reflected in a significant 1970 resolution by the General Assembly that was co-sponsored by Australia on the 25th anniversary of the United Nations.

The human rights record of the Indonesian invasion forces in the military administration of East Timor is a world scandal. It is highly significant that in the last week the findings of the Indonesian Human Rights Commission have contradicted publicly the stated position of its own Government. I salute those brave people who are opposing a dictatorship from within on those very grounds of moral principle which have been so clearly abandoned by so many Governments in Europe and throughout the world. We are shamed by such courage, as we are by the courage and determination of the Timorese people.

For many in western society the economic reality of the modern world has become so complex we are deterred from facing simple facts and the consequences of our investment choices. No doubt many little white-haired old ladies in Cheltenham buy unit trust bonds or invest in Indonesian companies because of a sentimental attachment to the Orient without realising they are funding the bloody machinery of war.

The ESB is involved in two projects in Indonesia and we should examine that. Also, as Senator Maloney said last week, Aer Lingus is peddling fluffy toys, innocuous and delightful in themselves, but made in Indonesia. Simply from the viewpoint of public opinion, it would be useful if Aer Lingus withdrew those toys and if the ESB withdrew from the area.

Auschwitz and its accompanying death programme would not have been possible without the massive collaboration of German industrial concerns such as Krupp, Thyssen and I.G. Farben. British, French and other industrial concerns have made cold, detached, financial decisions to sell the Indonesians the instruments of death with which the defenceless people of East Timor are being obliterated. These companies should be isolated and targeted for they are moral lepers of the same variety as the manufacturers of Zyklon B gas. One does not have to look further than British Aerospace to find a prime example.

The French President, Mr. Francois Mitterand, prior to his election said: "One people has been killed in Kampuchea, another is being exterminated today in East Timor". In the light of this clearly expressed knowledge by the French Government, why does it continue to supply Alouette and Puma helicopters, used by the Indonesian forces in waging an aggressive war against the civilian population of East Timor?

When I raised this issue with Mr. Alain Juppé at the meeting of Cosac in Paris last week his reply was to the effect that EU members should not keep torturing themselves about human rights issues. The EU, according to Mr. Juppé, had a good human rights record and in any case it was not a human rights organisation but had to face reality. I would like Mr. Juppé to face some of the human realities with which his Government continues to collaborate.

Interestingly my trenchant and controversial contribution, critical as it was of the conduct of our host State, was the only intervention of the morning that, according to the official report, drew applause from all sides of the house. I hope Mr. Juppé noted that fact. It is clear, therefore, that ordinary citizens, ordinary politicians and the principled non-governmental organisations throughout Europe are united in opposing the policy of collaboration.

When will those in power listen to the increasingly urgent demands made upon them to recognise the legitimacy of moral concerns in this area? When will foreign policy cease to be conducted along the lines advocated by the former junior Minister at the British Ministry of Defence, Alan Clark, MP, whose support for Compassion in World Farming contrasts so oddly with his clearly expressed indifference to mass murder carried out with weaponry supplied by the British munitions industry? Can we afford this level of moral imbecility in our so called statesmen?

The Indonesian dictatorship has attempted to prevent news of its infamy travelling abroad. In the last three months ten foreign journalists have been deported from East Timor. A court in Indonesia recently sentenced an East Timorese man, José Antonio Neves, to four years in jail. His crime was to write to the United Nations Secretary General, Mr. Boutros Boutros Ghali, about the human rights situation in East Timor. How can any member nation of the United Nations tolerate this form of behaviour?

In January the official Indonesian news agency, Antara, carried a report that six East Timorese guerrillas were killed in a clash with Indonesian forces. The East Timor Ireland Solidarity Campaign checked this with Catholic Church sources in East Timor. I am sometimes critical of the Roman Catholic Chuch, but not always; I like to balance that with praise. I cannot speak highly enough of the conduct of bishops, priests and administrators on East Timor and especially that remarkable and courageous man, Bishop Belo, who is so consistently misquoted in advertisements by the Indonesian Government in US mass circulation newspapers.

The church sources confirmed the six were in fact civilians who had been tortured and murdered by the Indonesian army. Intense pressure was then put on the international community from East Timor groups. The Governments of the US, New Zealand and Canada then issued a statement expressing concern at the Indonesian version of the killings. It has now emerged that those killed were civilians and when the relatives went to collect their bodies they were also threatened with execution.

In a report in The Irish Times in the last week a Catholic Church source said:

Indonesian special forces were conducting sweeping manoeuvres throughout East Timor in which young men were being arrested and murdered throughout the country.

Bishop Belo of East Timor said: "Everyday someone comes to my house to tell me, ‘They kill my son"'. The sources said systematic and careful elimination of young men had been going on for at least a month.

By passing this motion tonight we at least add our voices to the voices of condemnation beginning to echo around the world. Let the Indonesian authorities take note that their crimes are being recorded and monitored.

Mr. O'Toole

I thank Senator Norris for inviting me to second the motion. We should record our appreciation of his commitment to this issue, which he has followed through on many occasions in the last five years.

It is not often we get the chance to welcome the Tánaiste on an international issue; when he is here, which is regularly, it is usually on local business. On the two occasions I made contact with the Tánaiste and his office on East Timor, he was fantastically supportive. His views on this matter are a source of encouragement in many different places. I have spoken to educational groups worldwide — which have discussed this issue because teachers are under threat on the island — and they are encouraged that the Foreign Minister of an EU state has taken such a personal interest in the subject. I look forward to his continued concern.

I will not attempt to go through the issues in the same detail as Senator Norris. He has covered East Timor, not only with his usual vitality and energy but with clear detail and he has painted a dramatic picture. Everything I could say is a form of repetition of the issues he raised, but I will underline some points.

Recently in this Chamber we discussed the meaning of neutrality and the idea of an active neutrality, contributing to world peace, enabling people to live together and forge global agreements. During that debate I asked how we would explain to our grandchildren that a generation stood by while the Holocaust happened and while Pol Pot was butchering.

The same question arises about us. If only in the self-interested sense of being able at least to say one brought the matter to someone's attention or tried to create a world awareness, this Administration and its predecessor can say it has done so by raising the issue in the constraints of the EU, although those constraints bother us to some extent.

What is happening in East Timor is being parallelled in Tibet. The positions have many similarities: large, bullying, powerful nations took over helpless, defenceless, passive peoples. We as an independent State must bring this to the attention of the world. This issue attracts extraordinary support when people are brought up to date on it.

I put East Timor on the agenda of the World Conference of Education International, the world teachers' grouping, which is the largest professional group in the world, representing 25 million teachers. I was to propose the motion in Helsinki two years ago but I was unable to go there. However, it was proposed, seconded and agreed in my absence, despite the most vehement opposition of the Indonesian and Australian teachers' unions. The most extraordinary thing about that was that it created an awareness among teachers in every country. People discussed the matter and had an interest in it as they had in Kosovo in former Yugoslavia. Any problems or issues teachers have encountered in the last three or four years have been brought to my attention by the EI and also to the attention of teachers around the world.

Within two months of this motion being passed at the world conference, the Indonesian teachers union sent a copy of the booklet I am holding to every teachers' union in the world. It is a lovely glossy booklet which purports to tell us about the great improvements the Indonesian authorities have brought to the welcoming people of East Timor. I will not go into the detail of the booklet. However, East Timor in 1976 is depicted in faded black and white pictures. They show a ramshackle house, children in very poor health and farmers working in what looks like a stone age setting. When one turns over that page one can look at pictures depicting East Timor in 1989. They show a modern country and an emerging state thanks to Indonesia. It would be grand if one could ignore the facts that Senator Norris has brought to our attention. We must keep reminding ourselves that it is still happening, week by week and month by month. My office is still receiving reports from teachers there about the difficulties they are experiencing.

This is happening now. Nobody is doing anything about it despite the fact that the United Nations in 1982, having discussed it previously in 1975, gave a clear direction that action be taken to initiate consultations with all the parties concerned with a view to exploring avenues and achieving a comprehensive settlement of the problem. Settlement meant self-determination for the people of East Timor. The original United Nations resolution of 1972 has been ignored.

I have criticised the role of the Catholic Church at the time of the Holocaust and how slow it was to take action. However, the Catholic Church in East Timor has behaved impeccably. It has taken the lead on this issue. That is true not only of the resident church authorities, mentioned by Senator Norris, but also of the papal representative, Monsignor Lopez, who was there for quite some time. It is rare for a diplomat to speak out in the trenchant terms he used in order to bring what he called the "atrocities of East Timor" to the notice of the world. Those were the words of a neutral observer.

The Administration there is being propped up diplomatically by states throughout the world, militarily, financially and economically in the manner outlined by Senator Norris. We have lists of examples of such support. It is very worrying. We must be proactive in this matter and encourage our European partners to support us. I took part in the vigil outside the House during the visit of the Australian Prime Minister, Paul Keating, last year. I did not do so without some reservations as a public representative. I have been involved in causing problems for visiting dignitaries for many years. I addressed a large crowd outside Buswells Hotel during the visit of the American President in the early 1980s when somebody chose to burn the American flag, an action that upset some of my American relatives watching CBS that night.

However, I do not like the idea of public representatives being involved in such activities and it is not something I would do casually. I was heartened when I arrived at the vigil to see more than half a dozen public representatives present. I was also heartened to see the number of people there — it was a Sunday night — to show their disgust and horror at what is happening in East Timor. That represented the views of the people, their reaction to the television programmes we all have seen, and the way in which ordinary people questioned how this could happen today.

I recently asked Members of the Dáil and Seanad to put their names to a proposal to the Tánaiste. A majority of Members did so. There were no refusals: those who did not sign were, perhaps, laggardly rather than refusing. We called for support for the United Nations' call for self-determination in East Timor; condemnation of the invasion of Indonesia; and pressed the Government to involve the UN in ensuring that extrajudicial execution and torture were not part of daily life. Finally, we called for the release of all political prisoners and expressed the moral revulsion of Irish people and their public representatives at the continuing reports of further atrocities in East Timor.

I commend the motion to the House and I thank the Tánaiste for his personal interest in this issue. I hope he will take it further.

Tánaiste and Minister for Foreign Affairs (Mr. Spring)

I am happy to have the opportunity to address this House on the motion tabled by Senator Norris, Senator O'Toole, Senator Henry and Senator Lee. I am also grateful for the remarks made by the previous speakers.

This motion reflects the text of one tabled in the Portuguese Parliament. That motion was adopted unanimously by the Assembly of the Republic of Portugal on 16 November but there was little discussion of it by the Parliament, where all the Portuguese political parties are unanimous in their views on the issue of East Timor.

Paragraphs (1) and (3) of the motion repudiate the occupation of East Timor and reaffirm the inalienable right of the people of East Timor to self-determination. Indonesia invaded East Timor in December 1975 and sought to annex it in July 1976. The United Nations continues to view Portugal as the administering power of the territory and the UN Security Council and General Assembly have adopted resolutions condemning the Indonesian invasion and annexation. In 1982 the UN instituted talks between the Foreign Ministers of Portugal and Indonesia under the auspices of the UN Secretary General.

The motion takes up the situation of the East Timorese people and the abuse of human rights in paragraphs (1) and (2). Paragraph (4) particularly and firmly condemns the serious violations of human rights that have been perpetrated in East Timor. Let me say at the outset that I agree fully with the assessment of the sufferings experienced by the people of East Timor in the last 20 years since the Indonesian invasion of their territory.

Senators will be aware that it is estimated that some 200,000 people, out of the original East Timorese population of 650,000, have died as a result of that invasion and its aftermath. On 12 November 1991 the Indonesian armed forces reacted to a peaceful demonstration in Dili, the capital of East Timor, by firing live ammunition into the crowd and it has been estimated that between 200 and 300 people were killed as a result. In addition, some 200 people disappeared at that time and their fate is still unknown. In a statement issued a day after those shootings, Ireland and our EU partners expressed outrage and condemned the violent actions of the Indonesian armed forces.

Paragraph (5) of the motion urges the release of all Timorese political prisoners, especially that of Mr. Xanana Gusmao. The trial of Mr. Gusmao attracted widespread international attention and, when he was sentenced to life imprisonment in 1993, the Indonesian Government received many representations from around the world. I wrote to the Foreign Minister, Mr. Ali Alatas, at that time. The Indonesian Government responded to the international pressure by reducing Xanana Gusmao's sentence to 20 years but I take this opportunity to repeat that it is essential that he and other political prisoners be released.

I last addressed the Seanad on the situation in East Timor on 20 April 1994, an occasion when several Senators made substantial contributions to the debate. I propose now to deal with important developments since that debate and in particular the recent and very critical UN report on East Timor, the latest meeting between the Portuguese and Indonesian Foreign Ministers and the meeting of the UN Commission on Human Rights — CHR — in Geneva.

The Indonesian authorities agreed to invite to East Timor the CHR Special Rapporteur on extrajudicial, summary or arbitrary executions. The Special Rapporteur, Mr. Bacre Waly Ndiaye, visited East Timor in July 1994. His report on his visit to Indonesia and East Timor was made public in December and was presented to the current session of the UN Commission on Human Rights.

After careful consideration of the available evidence his conclusions on the Dili killings are: the killings could have been avoided by a proper crowd control operation in advance of the demonstration; the killings were done by regular members of the armed forces; the procession that took place in Dili on 12 November 1991 was a peaceful demonstration of political dissent by unarmed civilians and claims that the security forces had fired in self-defence are unsubstantiated; there are reasons to believe that the actions of the security forces were not a spontaneous reaction to a riotous mob, but a planned military operation to deal with a public expression of political discontent. He urges the Indonesian authorities to carry out thorough, prompt and impartial investigations of all suspected cases of extra-judicial, summary or arbitrary executions and enforced or involuntary disappearances. He calls on the Government of Indonesia to establish a civilian police force as a matter of urgency.

He is quite disparaging about the investigation into the Dili killings carried out by the National Commission of Inquiry. Its creation was an encouraging initiative but it was created by presidential decree, none of its members was totally independent of the Government and it was not trusted by the East Timorese. He concludes that a new commission of inquiry should be established, composed of individuals of recognised independence, impartiality and expertise and including, if necessary, experts internationally recognised for their objectivity and competence.

The rapporteur welcomes the establishment of the National Human Rights Commission, which was created by presidential decree in June 1993 as a very positive step towards improved respect for human rights. This commission has investigated the killing of six East Timorese on 12 January and has concluded that the Indonesian Army carried out intimidation and torture before killing six unarmed villagers. It has rejected the claim by the Indonesian Army that those killed were members and supporters of a separatist guerrilla group. This finding has compelled the Army into conducting a further investigation. The commission's report is grim but there is just one positive factor in it. It means that the officially established National Human Rights Commission is now prepared to identify and publicise an army atrocity in East Timor.

Mr. Ndiaye deserves our thanks for the worthwhile visit which he has carried out to East Timor. He has produced a report which is sharply critical of the situation and was submitted to the current session of the Commission for Human Rights. I welcome the report's emphasis that it is not too late to conduct a proper investigation into the Dili killings, to bring the perpetrators to justice, compensate those concerned and ensure that no further killings occur.

The visit by the Special Rapporteur followed Indonesia's commitment, at the fourth meeting between the Portuguese and Indonesian Foreign Ministers under the auspices of the Secretary General, to invite him to East Timor. The fifth meeting between the two Foreign Ministers under the auspices of the UN Secretary General took place on 9 January 1995, in Geneva.

The Portuguese Foreign Minister, Mr. Durao Barrosso, has reported to his ministerial colleagues in the European Union on that round of talks with the Indonesian Foreign Minister, Mr. Ali Alatas. Discussions at that meeting focused on the initiative of the UN Secretary General to invite Timorese, both those who accept and those who reject the Indonesian presence in East Timor, to take part in a dialogue meeting in April to explore ideas of a practical nature which might have a positive impact on the situation in East Timor.

Portugal considers that the fifth round of talks marks some progress. It recognises that the dialogue with Indonesia is very slow but its aim, in the short term, is to promote advances towards local autonomy and a better internal situation in the territory though the "all inclusive" intra-Timorese dialogue.

The sixth round of talks between the Foreign Ministers under the auspices of the Secretary General will be held on 19 May 1995, in New York. The Ministers have agreed to consider at those talks substantive issues identified by the Secretary General regarding possible avenues towards achieving a just, comprehensive and internationally acceptable solution to the question of East Timor.

It remains to be seen what substantive issues the Secretary General may be able to identify. There is no early solution in sight but I will point to one positive development. The rounds of talks between the two Foreign Ministers, which were launched under the auspices of the Secretary General in 1982, are now taking place with encouraging regularity. The fact that the fourth, fifth and sixth rounds of those talks will have taken place between May 1994 and May 1995 is encouraging.

This year's session of the CHR has been taking place in Geneva since the end of January and is continuing until the end of this week. The CHR has already completed its consideration of East Timor and on 1 March the chairman of the CHR delivered a consensus statement on the human rights situation in East Timor.

As Senators will be aware, the option at each session of the CHR is that a consensus statement will be agreed by all the participants, including Indonesia, or, alternatively, that a strongly critical motion will be tabled, which Indonesia would not wish to see adopted. Portugal conducted lengthy negotiations with Indonesia in order to secure agreement on a sufficiently strong chairman's statement. I am glad that was achieved but, if the negotiations had not proved satisfactory, Ireland would have strongly supported Portugal in seeking the tabling of a suitable draft resolution by the EU.

The chairman's statement has expressed deep concern over the continuing reports of violation of human rights and specifically the recent increase in tensions and the killing of six people on 12 January. The chairman records the Indonesian Government's undertaking to investigate those killings.

The statement welcomes Mr. Ndiaye's report on his visit to East Timor, expresses concern at the contents of the report and calls on the Indonesian Government to continue its investigation concerning those who are still missing since the events of November 1991.

The statement calls on the Indonesian Government to continue its policy of granting access to human rights and humanitarian organisations and international media. It is good to see that the Indonesian Government has reiterated that commitment. However, I have to say that the Indonesian authorities are continuing to decide on what terms they will permit access.

Indonesia's unwillingness to permit free access to East Timor for journalists has, regrettably, been demonstrated again in recent months. The distinguished Irish journalist, Mr. Hugh O'Shaughnessy, who writes for the Observer newspaper and contributes to The Irish Times and RTE travelled to Dili last year but was told there that he would not be allowed to act as a journalist without the written permission of the Indonesian authorities and he was compelled to leave East Timor. His case constitutes just one example of Indonesia's continuing restriction of international reporting on the situation in East Timor.

The chairman's statement records Indonesia's undertaking to invite the UN High Commissioner for Human Rights to visit East Timor this year and to report to the next session of the Commission on Human Rights. Indonesia has also undertaken to invite the Special Rapporteur on the Question of Torture and the Working Group on Arbitrary Detention to visit East Timor when it is necessary for them to do so in order to fulfil their duties. Indonesia's commitment to receive the High Commissioner for Human Rights and the relevant Special Rapporteur and working group is a positive outcome from this year's CHR. The visit of Mr. Ndiaye last year resulted in a detailed and severe report. Its publication and examination in context of this year's session of the CHR has certainly increased the pressure on the Indonesian authorities to address the situation in East Timor.

The East Timorese delegation to this year's session of the CHR has welcomed the chairman's statement and expressed the hope that the High Commissioner will visit East Timor with utmost urgency. The East Timorese multi-party delegation has expressed deep appreciation to Ireland for its firm stand within the EU and in the UN in support of the legitimate rights of the East Timorese people. It has also expressed gratitude to the Portuguese delegation for the manner in which it has articulated and advocated the views of the East Timorese. I am certain that the appreciation of the East Timor delegation extends not only to the Government but to all those in Ireland who seek to remedy the grave wrong inflicted on the people of East Timor.

In this context, I would mention that my Minister of State, Deputy Burton, recently met with Mr. Jose Ramos Horta, co-chairman of the National Council of the Timorese Resistance, in Geneva. The previous Minister of State, Deputy Tom Kitt, met with the Indonesian Foreign Minister in Karlsruhe at the EU-ASEAN ministerial meeting last September. We can, therefore, contribute to and welcome the international pressure which has been building up on Indonesia concerning its treatment of East Timor.

President Clinton availed of the APEC summit meeting, hosted by Indonesia in Djakarta in November 1994, to raise the issue with President Soeharto and to encourage him to give the people of East Timor more influence over their local affairs.

It is encouraging to see that the Australian Minister for Foreign Affairs, Mr. Gareth Evans, has taken up this theme in a speech which he delivered on 25 November 1994. He expressed disappointment that President Soeharto has not taken up the idea of granting a special status of limited autonomy to East Timor. Minister Evans emphasised the need for reconciliation, the reduction of Indonesian armed forces on the island and the recognition by the Indonesian authorities of the special cultural and religious situation of the East Timorese people. He met Minister Alatas on 21 February and put to him the case for greater political autonomy for the people of East Timor as well as urging Indonesia to reduce its military presence there. He is reported to have expressed also his concern at the deteriorating situation in the province.

Senators are aware that Australia is in a particular situation as regards East Timor. Unlike the international community as a whole, it has recognised Indonesia's annexation of that territory. That has led to international criticism of Australia's position and Ireland has taken up the issue with our Australian friends. The recent actions by Minister Evans are very encouraging and show the readiness of Australia to use its special influence with the Indonesian Government to seek a degree of autonomy for the people of East Timor.

Senators will be aware of the hearing before the International Court of Justice in The Hague in which Portugal is contesting the legality of the Timor Gap Treaty between Australia and Indonesia on exploitation of the oil resources under the Timor Sea. The international community awaits with interest the findings of the court.

The Portuguese Government, Parliament and people are committed to seeking a just, comprehensive and internationally acceptable solution to the East Timor problem. I follow with close attention the efforts undertaken by the Portuguese Government and the talks between the Indonesian and Portuguese Foreign Ministers under the auspices of the UN Secretary General. I ensure that Ireland clearly supports Portugal when it reports to and seeks the backing of our European Union partners. At this year's session of the Commission on Human Rights, the Irish delegation has worked closely with the Portuguese to ensure that international concern about the situation in East Timor is effectively maintained and strengthened.

Mr. Lydon

I welcome the motion on this tragic situation. I spoke on this issue before and I am happy to do so again by strongly supporting the motion. It is important to put some of the facts in place and to look at a little of the background. The Tánaiste and Minister for Foreign Affairs outlined the problems and covered some of the areas I intended to mention.

Portugal is still the administering power, recognised by the UN. This means for the UN and the international community as a whole that East Timor has not completed its decolonisation process in accordance with international law. The Indonesian rule, therefore, over the territory, derived of its brutal military invasion on 7 December 1975, is illegal. Following the revolution in Portugal on 25 April 1974, Portugal undertook to emancipate its colonial territories. In some of these areas, such as Angola, Mozambique and Guinea Bissau, liberation movements were already established. In some cases, guerrilla wars were ongoing. However, in East Timor there was no war, no liberation movement and no political parties. These came into being later; Fretilin sought independence, the Timorese Democratic Union sought to maintain links with Portugal, albeit for a short time in the transition period, while another group sought integration with Indonesia.

The Portuguese Government consulted with these parties and enacted a law providing for the East Timorese to choose democratically and freely their future political status. Civil war broke out and Fretilin had de facto control over most of the country. Portugal tried many times to restore peace and reestablish the rule of law in an effort to put the decolonisation of East Timor back on the right track. However, on 7 December 1975, Indonesia launched a military attack by ground, air and sea, leading to its occupation ever since. It was only when the territory was invaded by the Indonesian troops that the Portuguese authorities left East Timor, since their presence was no longer possible. Portugal did not abandon the East Timorese, as is sometimes claimed. On the day of the invasion, Portugal severed diplomatic relations with Indonesia and immediately brought the case before the UN Security Council and General Assembly.

Several resolutions were adopted deploring Indonesian intervention, asking them to withdraw from East Timor and asking all countries and States to respect the territorial integrity of East Timor and to respect East Timor's right to self-determination. These resolutions are still in force and set up the legal and political framework within which a just, comprehensive and internationally acceptable settlement to this issue will still have to be found if the UN basic principles on decolonisation and the essential rights of colonial peoples are to be respected.

Portugal, bound since the adoption of its 1976 constitution to promote and guarantee the right to self-determination of the people of East Timor, supported all the resolutions and fully accepted their provisions. It believed a new initiative had to taken because Indonesia ignored these resolutions. Portugal also believes that the United Nations should become involved in more practical terms in the search for a peaceful and negotiated settlement to the question, which would address underlying political causes of the fighting.

Portugal co-sponsored and promoted the adoption of Resolution 37/30 on 27 November 1982, whereby the Secretary General was requested to initiate consultations with all parties directly concerned with a view to exploring avenues for achieving a comprehensive settlement to the problem. Pending the submission of his final report to the United Nations General Assembly, a practice of postponing the debate of the issue to the next regular session of the General Assembly was established. I understand this still exists and I ask the Minister for Foreign Affairs to examine this point. Indonesia voted against the resolution and Djakarta was extremely reluctant to start any type of dialogue over East Timor, claiming that East Timor had been rightly incorporated into Indonesia.

There is a very large imbalance of power between Portugal and Indonesia and it is only by bringing international pressure to bear that any change is ever likely to occur. When Portugal acceded to the European Community, as it was then, it began developing unprecedented efforts at every appropriate international fora, even as far as the International Court of Justice. It profited from every suitable occasion to raise the issue of East Timor, regarding both the need to complete the decolonisation process in accordance with international law and to put an end to the intolerable human rights situation prevailing.

It was only on 12 November 1991, with the brutal killing of scores of young East Timorese in Dili — to which the Minister referred — that there was a turning point in the world's perception of the question, drawing attention to their plight. Shortly after this violence, in January 1992, the Portuguese Government proposed to the UN Secretary General that a renewed dialogue without preconditions should be engaged in as soon as possible, involving Indonesia and all parties directly concerned in order to achieve a just, comprehensive and internationally acceptable settlement to the question of East Timor. It has become obvious that without addressing the underlying political causes of the situation, violence and oppression, with the inevitable ensuing systematic violation of human rights, would not be stopped. Four meetings have been held, as the Tánaiste outlined.

At present, Portugal remains firmly committed to participate constructively in these talks. However, it is only with the international community looking continually at the problem that change is likely to come. I commend Senator Norris for putting forward this motion and his continued interest in this matter. It is worth putting on the record that Portugal has no other interest but to complete the decolonisation process and to restore the right of self-determination to the people of East Timor. I am shocked by Australia's attitude to East Timor. The Tánaiste referred to the Timor Gap Treaty. However, I am also shocked by the reluctance of a number of so-called western democracies to condemn the Australians for collaborating in this exploitation.

Mr. Norris

Hear, hear.

Mr. Lydon

That is exactly what it is.

Mr. Roche

It is two faced.

Mr. Lydon

It is about oil, power and exploitation and it is paid for with the lives of the East Timorese. They are innocent people caught in the middle. As the Minister said, there was a fifth round of talks in Geneva in January 1995 between the Portuguese Foreign Minister, Mr. Durao Barroso, and the Indonesian Foreign Minister, Mr. Ali Alatas. However, these are just discussions which are moving slowly but surely and they should continue.

However, we must take every opportunity in this Parliament and in other Parliaments to condemn this issue outright. We should ask the Australians what they are doing in league with these people. Is oil so important that 200,000 lives can be lost?

Mr. Norris

Hear, hear.

Mr. Lydon

I understand that they even sold out on four or five of their own journalists who were killed there.

I support the motion. I am heartened that Ireland will support the Portuguese in the process it is entering and that we will take initiative and action at every opportunity.

Mrs. Taylor-Quinn

I support the motion and I congratulate Senator Norris, Senator Lee and Senator O'Toole for tabling it. This is an important motion. It is easy for Governments to ignore human rights difficulties across the world. Due to economic interests, it is also easy for Governments to ignore and in some cases justify actions which occur.

The situation in East Timor is totally unacceptable. While appreciating that East Timor was once a Portuguese colony and that Portugal had a vested interest in it at one stage, we must recognise that Portugal's interest still exists. While everybody seems to accept that Portugal is working in the best interests of the people of East Timor, we must remember that any country which had a former colony will always have an underlying interest in that country.

The ongoing level of persecution and killing in East Timor is appalling. It appears that the Indonesian military authorities are concentrating specifically on young men, given the recent killing of six young men. The authorities first tried to justify this by saying that they were militants but it subsequently emerged that they were ordinary civilians. This is totally unacceptable, and this matter should be properly and fully investigated.

There is also a suspicion that the authorities are orchestrating planned population control and that certain types of chemicals are being given to people to ensure that they are sterilised. This matter should be properly and fully examined by the UN and the EU also has a role to play in this regard. Allegations have been made in relation to forced labour on two other islands. People are being forced into slave labour. Last week Senator Maloney brought a soft toy into the House which was made in Indonesia and was being sold in Dublin Airport. I was in Dublin Airport last Friday and I thought after Senator Maloney raised the issue the toy would be removed by Aer Rianta from their duty-free shop but it was not. The Minister should raise this matter with Aer Rianta. A minor action like that would be a statement of condemnation of what is happening East Timor.

We have had unsatisfactory reports about the Dili massacre and this matter should be investigated further. There is also a hesitancy in relation to the involvement of Australia in East Timor. I welcome the Minister's statement which gives an up to date situation on what has been happening. He said we should welcome the change of heart by the Australians that was evident in Minister Evans' recent statement about the need for reconciliation, the reduction of Indonesian armed forces on the island and the recognition by the Indonesian authorities of the special cultural and religious situation of the East Timorese people. It is very easy for a Minister from Australia to say that while, at the same time Australian interests are carrying out exploratory offshore work in East Timor on the lucrative resources to be found there. There is a case before the European Court of Justice at the moment in relation to this matter. It is fine for an Australian Minister to make a pious statement while exploratory work is being done on the natural resources of East Timor. That has to be condemned.

One cannot justify, under any circumstances, exploitation and abuse of people for economic interest. Unfortunately that continually happens and loss of life is being ignored because a variety of states have economic interests. This issue arises in relation to the position of fellow EU member states, such as France and England, who are exporting arms and helicopter missiles to Indonesia which are being used in East Timor. There is a responsibility on Ireland, as a member state of the EU, to raise this matter with these member states because these armaments and missiles are being used to commit atrocities against the people of East Timor. It is a total violation of basic human rights and is something that Ireland cannot stand over. We have a moral obligation to ensure that these matters are raised at EU level and that fellow member states, who are contributing indirectly to the situation, should be asked to cease supplying arms to these countries.

Another issue which arises is the prevention of reporters and journalists from entering East Timor. We have evidence of this because Irish journalists were refused admittance. That is unacceptable. There is a deliberate attempt to prevent the real story reaching the outside world; that is not good. We should ask ourselves a number of questions in relation to our position and what we can do. We have repeatedly stated that we will assist Portugal in ensuring that everything possible will be done to ensure that something constructive emerges from the discussions and negotiations taking place. How actively we are involving ourselves with this process? Is there a more active role for Ireland to be involved with the Portuguese and Indonesians to protect the people of East Timor? Is the process of current bilateral negotiations between the Portuguese and Indonesians adequate? Is there a role for Ireland to bring about an improved situation for the East Timorese people? These are the questions we should ask. The question of sanctions against Indonesia should also be examined. Has there been any consideration given to introducing sanctions against Indonesia? Will the Department of Foreign Affairs examine this matter? Will this matter be raised at EU level or has it been considered at any level?

In conclusion, we know that great demands are being made on United Nations resources and the difficulties, strains and stresses that the UN are currently experiencing, but is there a role for United Nations in East Timor? Traditionally the United Nations did not get involved unless a war existed between two states, but recently in Somalia and Rwanda the United Nations became involved because of human rights violations. Is there now a case for the United Nations to become involved in East Timor?

Dr. Henry

I welcome the Minister. May I say how glad I am that Mr. Tom Hyland, who has put so much work into the East Timor campaign, and a member of the Portuguese Ambassador's staff are here.

The urgency of action on East Timor cannot be stressed too much. I am a member of Amnesty International and only yesterday we received another urgent action appeal from them regarding fear of torture and arbitrary detention of up to 30 pro-independence supporters detained in Dili and Liquiza, East Timor. Amnesty International fears for the safety of the 30 East Timorese, including several civil servants who were arrested by the Indonesian Army. They fear for their safety "in view of recent reports of torture of detainees held in military and police custody. The organisation is also concerned that some may be being held solely for their peaceful opposition to Indonesian rule in East Timor." The fact that they are "being held solely for their peaceful opposition to Indonesian rule in East Timor" is very important because it shows how inequitous the situation is there.

I was disappointed with the Minister's speech. We have had another debate on foreign affairs in which no attempt has been made to explain why we have not ratified all the international instruments for human rights. For example, we have not yet ratified the 1977 Protocols to the Geneva Convention. I raised this matter about two years ago on an Adjournment debate and I was told that legislation takes time. This has taken 18 years. I think the British are close to ratifying it. With Turkey, we will be the only country in the western world not to have ratified these conventions. I realise that we have signed them but ratification is very important from an international point of view, especially when situations such as this arise, where a civilian population is being used as part of a war that Indonesia is waging against East Timor. I would like an explanation why this is happening.

The call from Amnesty International is to investigate what has happened to these detainees — who, far too often, do not reappear — and they have suggested that we ask for international and domestic human rights monitors. I realise that the International Committee of the Red Cross — I am also a member of the Red Cross, I had better declare all interests — do have access to some detainees, but despite this access, there are still serious allegations of torture. The International Red Cross has to be extremely careful in its reporting. If they are alarmed about the situation it must be very serious.

The fact that the detainees do not have access to their families and to lawyers of their own choice shows how serious and regrettable the situation is. As many Senators said, the fact that international and domestic journalists cannot gain access to East Timor means that we have very little knowledge of what is happening there. We should stress the fact that foreign journalists should be given permission to travel there. If there is no problem, why can they not go there? The United Nations Commission on Human Rights had stressed its concern about the lack of access for foreign journalists.

The Minister talked about lobbying various Governments. I have been to Indonesia and, apart from trade connections, we do not have much to do with it so we are in a weaker position as regards lobbying there. However, we should be able to do something in Australia because of our extremely strong connections there. We should wait for the St. Patrick's Day Parade there and make an announcement on the subject. This might be a good idea for whichever Minister is going there;——

Mr. Norris

Fat chance, unfortunately.

Dr. Henry

——and perhaps it could be written at the end of the Minister's speech, if this has not already been done.

I am extremely glad to see from the Minister's speech that we are continuing to support the Portuguese in their efforts to find a solution to the East Timor problem. In the past the Portuguese put forward the possibility of a referendum. Holding a referendum is only a basic right that the East Timorese people deserve. We should support the Portuguese on this. We should back whatever Portugal thinks is the best move because it is more familiar with the situation than we are.

It is sad to see that many areas in the Far East are suffering human rights problems. I have been involved with the situation on the Thai-Burma Border. I am sure all of us admire Amg San Su Kyee and what she has been trying to do for her people in Burma. I admire the medical aid workers from Ireland and elsewhere who have done so much for the refugees on the Thai-Burma Border. Thailand is now a great tourist destination for Irish people and it would do no harm if, as I have done, we were to write to the Thai authorities and tell them that we are taking a close interest on what is happening on their border. They are the only people who will apparently give any help to the minorities, such as the Karen, Mon, Karenni, Burman and Tavoyan, who are living in settlements along that border.

We have more influence than we think in some areas. As I said, Indonesia is not one of our strongest areas of influence, apart from the trade point of view, but we do have a strong tourist influence in Thailand. As a small independent nation, it is most important that we show our support both for the East Timorese and the Portuguese who are trying to solve the problem there.

Today is International Women's Day and Amnesty International has been focusing to methods of protect women's human rights in East Timor. To date, there has not been a great upsurge in aggression against women there, but for the men taken, detained, tortured, killed and who will never come back, there are wives, sisters, mothers, daughters and families who are denied a normal life.

I commend the Department of Foreign Affairs for its interest in this area but I urge it to do more, even in the area of reproaches if necessary, to the Australian Government on this serious situation, in which Senator Norris and Senator O'Toole have taken such an interest over the last few years.

Mr. Maloney

I welcome the Minister to the House — I have not had the opportunity to welcome him before — and I wish him well in his new portfolio.

I am delighted that we have this opportunity to address the situation in East Timor. This matter has been brought up today by Senator Norris who has worked extremely hard to see that it is kept to the forefront and I commend him for doing so. I also commend the work of Tom Hyland from the East Timor Island Solidarity Campaign, who is in the Public Gallery. I listened to an address from Mr. Hyland in a recent meeting of the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Foreign Affairs. I do not have to outline again the atrocities that are being carried out against the East Timorese people. He expanded on it extremely well, as did Senator Norris and others tonight.

John Pilger's programme, which I watched on television recently, showed the abuses of human rights in East Timor. The torture and ill treatment by the Indonesian forces involved against the people of this small country has to stand out as one of the most cowardly acts and horrible atrocities ever carried out against any people. There is a deep feeling in this country — we have seen enough denial of human rights here over the last 70 years — that the people of East Timor have been subject to human rights abuses and injustices on a scale similar to that carried out by the Nazis in Germany during the Second World War. We have always shown concern for abuses committed against people in other countries — Somalia, Cambodia and now East Timor — and we have to work at all times to see that this issue is kept to the forefront and that these people are not forgotten. We saw what happened in the former Yugoslavia and Rwanda. These areas are also of major concern to us and our record is excellent as far as the help we have given to these people is concerned.

In a recent statement by the multiparty East Timorese delegation to the 51st Session of the United Nations Commission on Human Rights, it expressed its deep appreciation to the delegation from the Republic of Ireland for its firm stand in the EU and the UN in support of the legitimate rights of the East Timorese people. This is another indication of how the people of East Timor appreciate the efforts that have been made by a small country to support their cause. Anyone who watched John Pilger's film would have to commend him for his courage and the work he did against the expressed wishes of the authorities in East Timor. To do what he did and to bring that film to the world showing the atrocities that are being carried out there has to be commended.

Indonesia invaded East Timor in December 1975. It has been estimated that almost one third of the population of that country have died from the hostilities, starvation and disease stemming from the conflict. The plight of the people of East Timor was shown to all the world in November 1991 when the Indonesian security forces opened fire on demonstrators in Dili and an estimated 200-300 people were killed. Some 200 people disappeared after the massacre and they have not yet been accounted for.

Even after all these abuses and the pressure that has been brought to bear on the Indonesian Government, nothing has been done to see that human rights abuses are stopped. The killing continues. How the Indonesian Government can close its eyes to what the world is watching is unbelievable.

Thankfully, we do not have any major trading ties with Indonesia. I raised in the Seanad last week the fact that Aer Lingus is carrying on its duty free listings a small toy made in Indonesia. I hope the Minister takes this on board and will ensure that Aer Lingus stops carrying any products made in Indonesia. It may only have been a toy, but it was made in Indonesia and showed that we were supporting its trade. We will have to stamp that out and not give Indonesia any support whatsoever.

Talks are ongoing between the Foreign Ministers of Portugal and Indonesia under the auspices of the UN Secretary General and one can only hope and be encouraged that these talks will continue. The UN Secretary General has committed himself to monitoring the human rights situation in East Timor and the UN special representative visited Portugal and Indonesia in January of this year in preparation for the next round of talks. These talks are to be welcomed and, hopefully, the ongoing mediation will bear fruit.

We must congratulate our Tánaiste and Minister for Foreign Affairs, Deputy Spring, for the excellent work he and members of the Irish Government have done since they were appointed and the fact that every opportunity has been taken to bring the problems of East Timor on to the world stage. This has obviously been welcomed by the East Timor delegation to the UN.

As a small country, what can we do? We must question the role of the Australian Government. It is obvious, from John Pilger's programme "Death of a Nation", that the Australians have a major role to play. The present indications would be that it is putting matters of economic concern ahead of those of human concern.

Millions of dollars worth of oil is to be found in the shores off East Timor and it is obvious from speaking to any Australian politician that they are embarrassed by the situation there but are unable to do anything about it. Regardless of what party people support in Australia, they seem inept at doing something about it. I find that very disappointing. The programme also stated that the Australians have helped to train some of Indonesia's armed forces. If this is true, it is terrible indictment of the Australian people. It was mentioned that some Ministers will be going to Australia for St. Patrick's Day. If this is so, they should let the Australians know that we do not agree with what they are doing in relation to East Timor.

I ask the Minister to highlight at every opportunity the depth of feeling in this country about this issue. We must use our position as a member of the UN to highlight and object to the atrocities being carried out there. We must pay tribute to Senator Norris on the way he has pursued this issue. He has raised it at every opportunity in this House. We are all aware of his concern and interest. I welcome his input and that of the Senators who raised this motion — Senator O'Toole, Senator Henry and Senator Lee — and their concern for the people of East Timor. We must do everything we can to ensure that the killing, the mass murder, which is being carried out in this small country by Indonesia, with the support of other countries, stops immediately. We must do what we can at EU and UN level to ensure this situation is ended as soon as possible.

I strongly support the motion.

Mr. Roche

As a patron of the East Timor Ireland Solidarity Campaign, it gives me pleasure to speak on this motion. It is a timely motion because we have just had, through the energies of Tom Hyland, the East Timor Ireland Solidarity Campaign and the generousity of a number of firms in the advertising industry, a successful poster campaign which raised public consciousness, particularly in the Dublin region. The reality is that a horror is being played out in East Timor — a horror which the majority of the world which considers itself civilised is prepared to ignore. Evidence of an atrocity on an unthinkable scale is mounting daily.

Since we last discussed this issue in the Seanad, we have received the special report issued by the UN Special Rapporteur on extrajudicial, summary or arbitrary executions, Mr. Ndiaye, which makes frightening reading. Maubere the journal of the East Timor Ireland Solidarity Campaign summarises an extract of Mr. Ndiaye's report this month. He places the massacre in Santa Cruz in the context of the overall slaughter of the East Timorese people which has taken place for 20 years. One-third of the population has disappeared; over 200,000 people have either died or disappeared in this small remote speck on the far side of the world.

With each human life that is extinguished, we are all diminished. It is time we realised that we have a responsibility to do something more than talking. The UN — I would not be one to praise its efforts in this regard — has been involved in diplomacy but it has not become involved in effective action. Mr. Ndiaye's report points out the determination of the Indonesian Government to quell anything which approaches opposition to its iron fist dictatorial regime. He speaks about the conditions which allowed the Santa Cruz killings to occur still being present and the members of the security forces who were responsible for the abuses not being held responsible. He talks about scapegoatism in a report produced by the Indonesian authorities.

We all know the infamous day when we saw on our television screens 200 East Timorese slaughtered in the graveyard when they went to commemorate Sebastiao Gomes and protest against the illegal Indonesian regime. Mr. Ndiaye's report, however, produces a new horror which has only been hinted at up to this — the slaughter of those who were wounded that day. They were taken on trucks to an Indonesian military hospital and were killed on the way. Some were brought to the morgue of that hospital but they had not been dispatched to meet their maker on the way so they were dispatched there. This report must touch everybody's humanity because something equal to the Holocaust is taking place in a small remote gentle island and we are doing nothing about it.

I do not share the view of the Minister of Foreign Affairs, Deputy Spring, that the Australian Foreign Minister, Mr. Gareth Evans——

Mr. Norris

Neither does anybody else.

Mr. Roche

——can be regarded as in any way praiseworthy. It pains me to make these points about the Australian people and Government because I share the general sympathy of the people for Australians, but I also share something else. My grandfather was Australian, is buried there and was involved in political movements and in the trade unions movement there. When Mr. Keating visited the other House, it pained me to stay away as a mark of my protest against what is happening.

The cynicism of the Australian regime is absolute. While Mr. Gareth Evans is tut-tutting at Soeharto and his dictators, the Australian Government currently provides Aus$100 million of arms, mainly personal weapons, to the Soeharto regime which will be used to slaughter the East Timorese.

I was surprised when a Senator who should know better said that there were no particular issues of women's concerns, particularly on International Women's Day. There was mass rape of the East Timorese women whose husbands and sons had already been slaughtered. There is evidence of an ongoing genocidal campaign of sterilisation against the East Timorese people. This is on a par with anything done in the horror camps in Nazi Germany, yet at the latter end of the 20th century going into the new millennium, we are tolerating this horror or abomination by our silence.

No Minister should go to Australia to celebrate St. Patrick's Day. We should boycott those celebrations and make it clear to the Australian Government that we do not want to participate in any celebration in that land. The Australians are fine people with civilised standards, but in this regard every standard of civilised behaviour has been traded for a barrel of oil. They do not give a damn about the slaughter of a small nation, a defenceless people. The Australians could also look at Papua New Guinea where there is nothing of which they can be proud.

We have a role to play and it is important that we are vigilant. Although we may be a small and insignificant island people, we must not underplay the fact that we have a voice on the international stage and we should not be shy to make it heard. Even as we speak, there is evidence of preparation for a new massacre in East Timor. Journalists and foreigners are being excluded, and that has happened in the past. We should protest if Irish journalists or those who represent an Irish newspaper are excluded. We can protest when we go to the shop to buy Nike or Reebok shoes which are made in Indonesia. They come to our land soiled with the blood of these people.

I compliment my Independent colleagues for raising this issue, which should be kept on the Order Paper. I will also raise another issue relating to human rights. I congratulate the Minister for Foreign Affairs for saying that we will take a more vigilant view of human rights issues. I have argued for that for years. In 1978 I had the honour of being the only Irish person — I believe I still am — to win a human rights fellowship from the UN. I had the honour to be a human rights fellow for one year and to work in that regard. I have always believed that as a small nation we could make a massive contribution in the human rights field. We have no colonial past to sully us; we share the colonial experience of others, and we are a people interested in the rights of all human beings, and in particular, in the rights of small nations.

Mr. Sherlock

It is a pity East Timor has few natural resources and little strategic value. If it had the international community would have acted long ago. Yet the UN has so far passed ten resolutions condemning the Indonesian invasion of East Timor and the regularly reported atrocities. These resolutions have encountered only massive apathy among the international community with a few honourable exceptions, Ireland among them.

The Indonesians continue their outrages against the East Timorese secure in the knowledge that they will face few sanctions. Four days ago up to 30 East Timorese were arrested by the Indonesian Army. No reason for their arrest has been given and their present whereabouts are unknown. This is the latest of a series of human rights violations perpetrated by the Indonesian authorities since their occupation of East Timor.

Unfortunately, we do not know the precise extent of the abuses taking place in East Timor as information is difficult to obtain in a closed society. We know, however, that detention without trial, torture, disappearances and extrajudicial executions are commonplace in Indonesia. We know, for example, that Jose Antonio Belo was arrested following a peaceful demonstration, was beaten to the point of losing consciousness, was tied up and hung upside down like a trussed turkey. He was then taken down and beaten again.

Jose Antonio Belo and others, whose names we know, stand as a symbol for the silent suffering of the East Timorese. Most of the victims of Indonesian repression are anonymous; simple statistics in the lists maintained — with great difficulty — by organisations such as Amnesty International and the International Red Cross.

Indonesia regularly attempts to justify its repression by citing "armed resistance" in various parts of Indonesia. It is, therefore, ironic that Indonesia's own Commission on Human Rights has pointed out that there has been no armed resistance in Liquiza for ten years, yet arrests continue there. Indonesia will continue flouting UN resolutions until the international community decides to take a firm stand. The time has come to substitute action for words.

I urge the Government — and I know the Minister of State, Deputy Durkan will be serious about this — to continue its support of the East Timorese people and to lobby at international fora, such as the United Nations and the EU, for stiff international trade sanctions against Indonesia. We must also make our position clear to countries, such as Australia, which, despite words of protest, continue to maintain close links with the Indonesian regime.

Fifty years after the liberation of Auschwitz East Timor is yet another reminder that nations and communities continue to be subjected to persecution.

Mr. Dardis

I welcome the chance to speak on this matter. It is important to register our abhorrence at what is happening in East Timor and to ensure the Government does everything possible at international level to prevent the ongoing human tragedy that is East Timor. I commend Senator Norris on this motion and for the work he has done on this issue. I also commend the East Timor Solidarity Campaign which has kept the issue to the forefront of public opinion, and on a wider international level to commend the East Timor Action Network.

I was fortunate enough to go to the United Nations and meet the Secretary General with an interparliamentary group from several national Parliaments. We were received graciously; we were listened to attentively; the Secretary General had a genuine desire to assist, but it is evident that neither he nor the UN had the support of the international community to act effectively. Without that support it is difficult to achieve anything.

We have verified, to the extent that verification is possible or required, what the extent of the human rights abuses have been in East Timor. I will not go back over the figures which have been discussed at length in the House with regard to one-third of the population being liquidated. On the day we commemorated the 50th Anniversary of the Liberation of Auschwitz I said that what happened in Auschwitz must not happen again, but that it could. The living proof that it could happen again is East Timor; it is the living proof of the road that leads to Auschwitz.

People in East Timor who attend funerals are gunned down; people disappear, people are incarcerated just because they are on the "wrong side of the street", so to speak. We find it difficult in a democracy where human rights are safeguarded to understand the degree to which they are ignored by this Administration. In that context, it is incomprehensible that civilised countries with records in terms of human rights and their defence stand by. We may ask why they stand by and the simple answer is money.

Indonesia is a rapidly growing economy and the large trading nations are prepared to sacrifice hundreds of thousands of human lives in the interests of their own economic well being. It is a purely selfish economic interest. Arms from the EU are finding their way to Indonesia. Why is Australia standing idly by? It has to do with oil. In each case it comes down to selfish, narrow economic interests.

Again we come back to making this invidious comparison with what happened in the Holocaust. We have a capacity to be blind to what everybody knows is going on, purely because it does not serve the countries' narrow self-interests. That is why it is so essential that Ireland and other small countries continue at every opportunity to highlight what is happening in East Timor, and to impress upon the international community the need to intervene.

It is a basic human right to have the capacity for self-determination. Any nation has that basic right but the people of East Timor are denied it. They have expressed their wishes but their wishes have been ignored. Having met people from East Timor when I was at the UN it struck me what a wonderful people they are. Perhaps it is their timidity which has cost them so dearly, because it is simply not in their nature to be the aggressors and they have paid the price. To be fair, Portugal has done what it can to alleviate the situation and it is perhaps somewhat unusual in terms of a former colonial power that it has at least taken on board some of its responsibilities to its former colony, but without the support of the international community Portugal cannot achieve much.

Bilateralism between Portugal and Indonesia, while it may be desirable, is not adequate. The East Timor people have a right to be at that table in terms of their self-determination, so we have to ensure that the supply of arms dries up and that the agents of death are not allowed to flourish. I agree with Senator Sherlock that trade sanctions should be imposed but I get dispirited when I think of the time that has elapsed since this matter first came to the attention of the international community and the lack of action in the meantime. That is why it is important that groups such as the East Timor Solidarity Campaign and the East Timor Action Network at international level continue to bring whatever pressures they can on Governments such as ours and that they have our support.

I am sure the motion has the support of everybody in the House but I appeal through you, a Chathaoirligh, to the Minister to convey to the Government and the Minister for Foreign Affairs the need to continually have this matter at the forefront of our foreign affairs agenda; to let it be known that we condemn what has happened there, and that we are determined to do what we, as a small country of some standing on the international stage, can to ensure that the abuses that have happened there are recorded, that no further abuses take place and that the people of East Timor are accorded their basic right to self-determination.

Mr. Neville

I support the motion and congratulate Senator Norris, Senator O'Toole, Senator Henry and Senator Lee in proposing it. We discussed this on 20 April 1994 and made our feelings known. We had the opportunity in a debate on foreign affairs last July to do something similar and I am delighted to have this opportunity to once more support the calls for restitution of human rights in East Timor. It is important that all Parliaments pass resolutions similar to that passed by the Portuguese Parliament and it is important that we have the opportunity to do so.

It is important that we discuss the level of atrocities committed in East Timor. Until recently there was a conspiracy of silence in the western world in regard to the atrocities committed in that country. East Timor has endured this suffering despite the brutal killing of one-third of its population. Men, women and children have been annihilated, and the Tánaiste has referred to this. We must condemn unreservedly the destruction of the nation and the people of East Timor. We must condemn the open support for the Indonesian Government by prominent nations which have continued a lucrative trade with Indonesia, including the arms sales to the military by France, as already mentioned by Senator Norris, by the United States and by the United Kingdom in particular. These are our fellow Europeans, member states of the European Union and we must impress upon them our objection to what they are doing.

On Mr. John Pilger's programme the attitude of the United States to what was happening in East Timor at the time was clearly seen. If I remember correctly, Henry Kissinger was on the programme and what he said about this issue was unbelievable. His statements were absolutely contrary to what was happening there. It was obvious from the programme what was happening in Indonesia and it was unbelievable that somebody as prominent as Henry Kissinger, for whom I had a high regard, could almost deny openly what was happening in that country. The Pilger programme was a frightening exposé of how ethnic cleansing at its worst was carried out.

Although Ireland is a small nation in terms of peace-keeping, we must do everything in our power to stop the slaughter in East Timor. I agree with Senator Roche that we can play a very strong role in this as an independent nation, as a former colony, and we should use every method at our disposal to stop the atrocities in that country. We are a prominent member of the United Nations, and we must use our position to highlight and object to what is happening. No solution to the plight of the people of East Timor will be forthcoming until international pressure forces an end to all trading with Indonesia, until full economic sanctions and a total embargo are imposed on Indonesia similar to that imposed on Iraq and in South Africa, as highlighted by Senator Sherlock.

Imposition of trade sanctions is the only way to stop this atrocity. Only then will we see an end to the massacre of the peaceful people of East Timor. Such a cessation of violence seems far away at present. Australia has provided military training for the Indonesian armed forces and Britain last year sold 40 Hawk military jets to Indonesia. I note that the Australian Government was arraigned, as Senator Norris said, last February at the International Court of Justice in The Hague for its illegal compliance with the Indonesian Government in its policy of annihilation of the East Timorese people.

Very little has changed in almost 12 months since we debated this issue last April. Last April I quoted Amnesty International and it is worth quoting again. Although it is 12 months out of date it still applies. Amnesty International said:

When governments pretend not to notice suffering, to whom can peoples like those in Indonesia and East Timor turn for help? The United Nations? Alas, the deeper you delve, the redder the faces. The cynicism of realpolitik extends even to the UN Commission on Human Rights, of which Indonesia is a member. When Amnesty attended the Commission... in Geneva [in 1994] to urge action on Indonesia and East Timor we met only embarrassment. The governments to which we spoke repeated what they had been promising us for 30 years, that they will pursue a policy of quiet diplomacy. They might as well go fishing.

That is still true today, despite the statement of the Tánaiste that there is some semblance of movement. It is not a breakthrough, it is a small semblance of movement towards an involvement of the international community in stopping the atrocities and the annihilation of the East Timorese people. We must recognise that there is some movement but that is all it is, it is the start of a long road to stopping these atrocities. That road must be travelled as fast as possible because daily people are suffering and dying and being denied their human rights and the international community must say stop. Tentative steps are great but we need serious action.

Indonesia became a member of the UN Commission on Human Rights in 1991. As such it bears a special responsibility to implement recommendations enumerated in that body's statements and resolutions, yet with some minor exceptions it has not done so. The minor exceptions were mentioned by the Tánaiste today. Indeed, it has indicated that it does not feel bound to abide by the provisions of those resolutions. If the Government of Indonesia trusts the role of the UN bodies, particularly the UN Commission on Human Rights, to discharge its mandate to promote and protect human rights, it should comply and co-operate fully, not tentatively as it is now, with the suggestions and recommendations of that body. To do so selectively raises questions about the sincerity of the Indonesian Government and its commitment to those principles and institutions. That Government has also failed to become a party to the most important international human rights conventions, such as the International Convention on Civil and Political Rights and the Convention Against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman and Degrading Treatments and Punishments.

I thank the Tánaiste for coming to the House and for his interest in the issue and I urge him and the Government to continue at every opportunity to ensure that we play our part in ending these atrocities. I pay special tribute to Tom Hyland and the East Timor Ireland Solidarity Campaign for the excellent work they are doing and for encouraging and prompting us to do what is our duty, which is to call for the end to these atrocities.

Mr. Norris

I would like to express my appreciation to the Seanad for taking this motion so seriously and for providing such an excellent debate. I understand that this motion will pass unanimously by agreement through this Upper House of the Oireachtas.

I would like to refer to some of the comments made and ask how pious we can afford to be here. If we had an arms trade, would we be able to justify ourselves quite as well? Mention was made of Iraq. I remember protesting at the sale of beef to the Iraqi tyranny and was told that what I was suggesting might be morally correct but there were economic interests involved. I challenge the House, the Minister and our civil servants, that if we are as principled as we say and condemn people for their economic self-interest, to what extent are we prepared to prejudice our own potential economic self-interest, even with our friends like the Australians?

Are we prepared to take up the proposal of Senator Roche that we should look very carefully at the invitations from the Australian Government to attend St. Patrick's Day rallies and marches in the Australian subcontinent? Could that not be used to send a very clear and determined message to the Australian Government and, through it, to the Australian people, on behalf of the people of that country who are not at all happy with the situation in East Timor? We should not be too comfortable unless we are prepared to risk something ourselves, and I think we should.

Perhaps this House should consider — I know this will be done by the East Timor Ireland Solidarity Campaign — sending the record of this evening's debate to the Australian Parliament, Government and media so that they may see precisely how the Irish people and their representatives feel about the disgraceful attitudes expressed on their behalf by their Foreign Minister, who is a man not very closely connected with veracity. I know I could not call him a liar, if I could I would but I will phrase it in a diplomatic way.

The Tánaiste's speech was excellent up to the last few pages, when he became polite to the Australians and the Indonesians. If we are, as everybody has said, dealing with a situation comparable to the Holocaust, why be polite to these people? Is it not time for an end to politeness? Mr. Gareth Evans dismissed the Santa Cruz massacre as an administrative error. This is the language of Hitler and Himmler; it is not civilised discourse. He spoke of the readiness of Australia to use its special influence. What special influence do the Australians have? How did they get it? Are they entitled to it or should they not be covered in shame? He said they are in a particular situation with regard to East Timor. They certainly are and that situation is known as a hole. They are in a hole, morally speaking, and it is up to us to rub their noses in that fact.

May I suggest a few other concrete things which could be done? Tributes have been paid to Mr. Tom Hyland who is the driving force behind the East Timor Ireland Solidarity Campaign. A conference will be held in Portugal, in May to which the Portuguese Government have extended an invitation to me. I hope to travel there as part of the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Foreign Affairs. Can some money be found to sponsor, even in a modest way, a visit by somebody who is our acknowledged expert and who has helped to make us all aware and ensure that the voice of the East Timor Ireland Solidarity Campaign is also heard in Lisbon this spring? I am sure with the goodwill of the Department of Foreign Affairs this money can be found.

There are areas where we can affect things. Tourism is one. Bali, the island of pleasure and romance, how many Irish people go there for their honeymoon, conferences, business opportunities and holidays? A cousin of mine working in the Far East visited Bali and I was disgusted with him, but I am glad to say that his brother presented him with John Pilger's book on his return and he now very much regrets that he was insensitive enough to visit that beautiful place.

I would like to underline what I said earlier about the courage of the Indonesian people because this should not be underestimated. It is easy for me to come here for a couple of hours, get emotional, stir things up a bit, express noble sentiments and then go to the theatre to see "Peter Pan", which is precisely what I intend to do at the end of this debate, but what about the people in Indonesia who had the extraordinary moral courage from inside a dictatorship to criticise and condemn the activities of their own military authorities and expose the lies that are being told? Those are the people, as well as the East Timorese people, who really deserve the highest regard and honour and I hope that by publicising what they have done they will be protected.

The Indonesian Government is an illegal regime. It is nothing other than a noxious tyranny, which has exercised its tyranny not only against the people of Papua New Guinea and East Timor but against its own people in the most horrible ways. We must salute the people in that tragic country who have courageously stood out against their own Government. I would like to think that we would stand up and be counted but we have not been challenged in this country yet.

Reference has been made to Bishop Belo. There was an article recently in Time magazine which was quite disgraceful. The Indonesian Government bought about 20 pages of advertisements. Shortly after that an article loaded in favour of the Indonesian regime in East Timor was carried and it quoted Bishop Belo. I wrote to the magazine — I am glad to say it published the letter — and quoted what Bishop Belo said. He said “they [that is Western Governments] are lying about what is happening to us. Their lies and hypocrisy are in the cause of economic interest. We ask the people of the world to understand this and not to forget that we are here struggling for life every day”.

It is appropriate that we have this debate in this House. I have in my hand a document that Mr. Brendan Ryan and myself dug out of the archives; it is about 15 years old. It was the statement of our President, then a Senator, shortly after the invasion of East Timor. At least in this House we can say without too much pious self-congratulation that we have on an all party basis stood up for a small defenceless people whose civil and human rights are being mercilessly trampled on.

Question put and agreed to.

Acting Chairman

When is it proposed to sit again?

Mr. Neville

At 10.30 a.m. tomorrow.

Sitting suspended at 7.50 p.m. and resumed at 8 p.m.

Seanad Éireann debate - Wednesday, 8 Mar 1995

East Timor: Motion.

Acting Chairman

Seanad Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 8 Mar 1995