It is proposed to take item 16, motions 18 and 19, today. Motion 18 is to conclude not later than 6 p.m.; motion 19 will take place between 6 p.m. and 8 p.m. It is proposed that speakers will have 20 minutes each on motion 18 and may share time.
Order of Business.
As was done at my party's meeting today, I wish the Cathaoirleach a speedy recovery. I am sure the House will join with me in hoping he will be back with us sooner rather than later.
An Leas-Chathaoirleach
I have no doubt we all share those sentiments.
In view of the announcement of the Minister for Justice last Tuesday and the Government's statements last Thursday, we should have the opportunity to discuss the commitment of the Government to law and order. I ask the Leader to arrange with the Whips to provide time for a general debate on crime sooner rather than later. The Minister for Finance introduced many innovative proposals in the Finance Bill. However, since then there have been other announcements. The House should be given the opportunity to discuss the Government's policy on finance.
I want to raise with the Leader two issues that should be addressed by this House. First, a report on Sunday trading was published and received by the Minster of State at the Department of the Taoiseach in the last few days. What is happening in this area at the moment is leading to all sorts of difficulties and domestic and ordinary life is being undermined. There is also unfair competition. Dunnes Stores workers in particular are being treated like commercial slaves and many of them are being victimised for not being prepared to work on Sundays despite the impact this is having on their families and other people.
I do not want to go into a long discussion on the matter — it is not appropriate on the Order of Business — but times are changing. Sunday trading will be part of our future and we should have a discussion of the impact that will have on social life. I have come across situations in the last two weeks where people have suffered badly because of Sunday trading. In deference to the Chair, I will not develop that point any further, but that report deserves consideration and discussion.
The second area that should be discussed is the difference of opinion between the veterinary surgeons and the Department of Agriculture, Food and Forestry. We discussed this matter in the House before on a number of occasions when we talked about brucellosis, badgers etc. I worry when I hear a Minister say he is not prepared to be told how to do his business by a professional group. If the vets, whom we trust, are not to be trusted to give us the proper advice or if a Minister does not trust them, that worries me. They are getting a rough deal.
Will the Leader ask the Minister for Agriculture, Food and Forestry to explain this issue to the House because the views of the vets have not been fairly listened to and they are being treated unfairly. The Minister has shown a lack of sympathy for the sensitivities of the relationship between vets and farmers and the way they do their business.
They take plenty of money from them.
There is no question of money being saved in the proposals by the Minister or——
An Leas-Chathaoirleach
We are not discussing that matter now. I am calling Senator Dardis.
I would welcome a debate on TB eradication. We have debated this subject at great length in the past. If I recall it correctly — I am sure the Senator can recall it too — the former Senator — now a Minister — Doyle, treated us to a lengthy dissertation on this subject when she was in this House. I would question whether we would achieve anything effective with a debate on TB eradication but I would be happy to participate in it if it is brought before the House.
I see from the newspapers that the Electoral (Amendment) Bill, which deals with the revision of constituencies. has been prepared. Since I have a direct personal interest in this matter——
East Kildare.
Ask Senator Wall.
That is very ungracious of the Senator. We will see how his candidate does at the end of this campaign.
Has the Leader any knowledge of that legislation and, if he has, when does he expect it to come to us? I am also pleased to see that the Minister is here for the Order of Business.
I support the request to the Leader of the House for a debate on agriculture. There are two aspects I would like to mention in this regard. First, the alarming rate at which small farmers are being forced out because of the milk quota system, leasing or whatever.
By the Senator's Government.
An Leas-Chathaoirleach
Senator Sherlock, without interruption.
The great scandal of this country since 1954 or 1955 has been the TB eradication scheme, which was a rip-off by the vets. They are feeling the pinch now because they are being told to toe the line.
(Interruptions.)
In light of the Government decision last week, would the Leader of the House ask the Minister for Justice to come into the Seanad, as a matter of urgency, to explain the cruel and callous decision which has been perpetrated against the people of Roscommon, particularly the people of Castlerea, to shelve the prison project? What right has any Minister or Government to play political roulette with the people of Roscommon?
An Leas-Chathaoirleach
The Senator must put a question to the Leader.
The psychiatric patients and staff of St. Patrick's Hospital in Castlerea are now surrounded by a wall which is 30 feet high and one and half miles long.
An Leas-Chathaoirleach
We are not discussing that issue; the Senator must put a question to the Leader.
Will the Leader of the House ask the Minister for Justice to come here to explain this cruel and callous decision as it applies to the people of Roscommon; in particular, the staff and patients of St. Patrick's Hospital?
An Leas-Chathaoirleach
The Senator has made his point.
Perhaps they could build an interpretative centre next to the great wall of Roscommon and interpret it for the tourists.
Or they could begin to build it and then leave the wall.
I would welcome a debate on the question of the vets and the TB eradication scheme. It is a running sore, a scandal and a disgrace. I am reliably informed that the vets have been milking the country for the last 42 years and I would welcome an opportunity to place on the record that it is a scandalous waste of money.
Milking is a singularly inappropriate word.
With regard to cutbacks in the Prison Service, would the Leader ask the Minister for Justice whether this will also affect the suggested open prison facility in Parnell Street, which I understand was dislodged from Cabra as a result of pressure from local representatives? We would not welcome it in that area of the north inner city. We have done our duty and we certainly do not need that kind of institution when they have stripped the north inner city of so many other institutions.
An Leas-Chathaoirleach
A question for the Leader.
Would the Leader ask the Minister for Justice if this particular potato is going to be dropped in the cutbacks?
Is it possible to have a debate — or even to pass the concern on to the relevant Minister — about the possible loss to this country of a very important asset, which is the Shackleton Garden in Lucan? I know the State has limited resources and it cannot buy every stately home or great garden. However, this is a remarkable collection of plants and enhances the tourist potential of Dublin. It might be possible for the Government to find some method of taking it into public ownership.
Two weeks ago I requested the Leader to arrange a debate in this House and, if possible, to bring in the Minister for Justice. That situation has now become more serious. I support Senator Finneran's request for a debate and for the Minister for Justice to come into the House. I was alarmed when I heard the Minister of State, Deputy Coveney, saying in the Lower House yesterday that he could redeploy some of the gardaí now serving in the Border areas to areas of greater need. Such a move would frighten all those who live and work in the Border areas because it may not be realised but many people's income has been affected by the peace process.
An Leas-Chathaoirleach
The Senator must put a question to the Leader.
I am trying to do that. I ask the Leader to take this matter seriously because business people, who suffered greatly for 25 years, are now vulnerable to those who are going about unhindered——
An Leas-Chathaoirleach
We are not discussing that matter now.
I am asking the Leader to bring the Minister for Justice into this House so that we can clear up this matter. This is not a political bandwagon or a flag waving operation. Those living in the area are genuinely concerned.
I wish to make a further point in regard to item 16, Motion No. 4 on the Order Paper. In view of the concern of many people who have heard that matching funding will not be available for the INTERREG programme, for the Delors package, and other funding, could the Minister say whether those funds will be available? Perhaps many of the rumours are unfounded.
An Leas-Chathaoirleach
A question for the Leader, Senator.
I am trying.
An Leas-Chathaoirleach
You are making a speech. A question to the Leader.
I ask the Leader to make Government time available for this Motion as he offered to do earlier. I would welcome his initiative on that matter.
I support the call for a discussion on the vets' dispute with the Department of Agriculture, Food and Forestry. People should inform themselves of the real problems that have been there for a long time and which are not all caused by the Department.
Those of us who have been speaking about it for the last ten years know what the problems are.
The Senator is lucky to have been here for ten years, I have not been here for ten years, I was in another House. I wish to make another point. If we are to have a discussion on walls built in Roscommon, maybe we will have a discussion about all the walls built by the Department of Justice.
An Leas-Chathaoirleach
A question to the Leader, Senator.
I am asking the Leader to include this in his questions if the Minister comes into this House because it is very important that we have a discussion on all the costs involved and why the Government of the day decided to build a second wall.
An Leas-Chathaoirleach
This does not arise on the Order of Business.
I, too, wish the Cathaoirleach a very speedy recovery. I hope he will be back among us very soon. In view of the embargo announced by the Government last Thursday on recruitment to the public service, I ask the Leader to ask the Minister for Health to come into the House to indicate to us the priorities he has for his Department, if the implementation of the Child Care Act will be a priority and if it will be implemented in accordance with the Government's promise.
I join in sending best wishes to the Cathaoirleach.
I support Senator O'Toole's call for a debate on Sunday trading. It is obviously a complex issue. Nobody wants to close down the corner shop that sell newspapers and so on but there is potential for exploitation as well. I have not seen the regulations, referred to by Senator O'Toole, that the Minister of State is to implement but it would be useful if we had a debate in this House to tease out the various issues and see if there are ways to safeguard workers and, at the same time, allow the kind of legitimate Sunday trading that would be acceptable to all.
I agree with Senator O'Toole and others who spoke about the dispute with the vets. Bovine disease eradication is very important to agriculture. If the operation of the scheme were to cease that would be very dangerous. There were two cessations before and it is ironic that the previous cessations were at a time when the Ministers for Agriculture were members of Fine Gael. Now a Fine Gael Minister for Agriculture, Food and Forestry is refusing to meet the vets.
An Leas-Chathaoirleach
I take it you are supporting the principle of a debate, Senator.
I heard on the radio that the Minister was invited to meet them but he refused.
An Leas-Chathaoirleach
A question to the Leader.
It would be very dangerous to interfere with the farmervet relationship in this case.
An Leas-Chathaoirleach
We will not discuss bovine TB on the Order of Business.
Those who criticise the vets do not work as closely with them as the farmers who depend on vets. The criticism was unjustified. We should have a debate on bovine disease eradication as soon as possible.
The former Minister, Deputy Walsh, sat on the matter for two years and did nothing.
I support the call for a debate on agriculture with particular emphasis on the disease eradication schemes in view of the worsening relationship between the Minister for Agriculture, Food and Forestry and the veterinary profession.
I also support the call for a debate on crime and prisons in light of the Government decision to shelve the Castlerea prison project. At present there is a chaotic, revolving door system in our prisons, and the Transfer of Sentenced Persons Bill, which is going through the other House, when enacted, will put additional pressure on the prisons. A debate on this subject is therefore, urgently required.
I join with the demands for a debate on prisons and the custodial policy of the State, which is daft. It is proposed to invest almost £5.5 million in a women's prison, while a recently issued report on prisons shows that women commit hardly any crime. Almost all offences are committed by men, under every category. Women are being locked up for selling on streets without licences or non-payment of fines or debts, all of which could be recouped in a sensible way. We should have a reasonable debate, without point scoring. If there is to be a cutback in any facet of the economic or social life of the State——
Cut the programme managers.
——then the building of prisons should be considered because it is not the highest priority. In answer to Senator Dardis, I have yet to discover a way to grow a parliamentary party except by putting candidates forward in by-elections; the Progressive Democrats obviously have a new system.
Will the Leader ask the Minister for Justice to make a statement on penal policy and the women's prison? I strongly disagree with the last speaker. All the reports have shown a need for a women's prison because they are held in appalling conditions in the prisons in this country.
Most of them should not be in prison.
I am shocked and surprised to hear a Labour Party representative say women do not need a prison for themselves; that was why it was proposed.
An Leas-Chathaoirleach
A question for the Leader please, Senator.
Will the Leader ask the Minister to make a statement on bail? She said there would be a reform of the law on bail but because of the pressure on prisons it would have to wait. Would the Leader ask the Minister to make a comprehensive policy statement on the subject?
I agree with Senator Magner that we should have a general debate on prisons and I ask the Leader to invite the Minister for Justice here as soon as possible to discuss our prison structure. As others have said, there is a danger that people may be put in prison unnecessarily and loss of life may result. In a recent case in Cork, a young person died and the coroner's report stated it may not have been necessary to have locked up that person in prison. Our debates should be constructive. Many people could be dealt with other than by imprisonment.
I ask the Leader to invite the Minister for Education to the House for an open-ended debate on the number of students who committed suicide in the last few weeks. This is a serious problem. As I said in the past, our education system is oriented to failure rather than success. It is like showjumping; it operates a process of elimination which is a bad system. There should be a system of standards and everyone who reaches them should succeed, rather than the present system, which is chaotic and unfair to parents and pupils.
When was it introduced?
I ask for a debate on this subject.
I express my sympathy to Senator Farrell on the death of his brother at the weekend.
Last Sunday I watched in dismay as 15 Galway footballers took away our provincial crown in Carrick-on-Shannon.
An Leas-Chathaoirleach
That hardly arises on the Order of Business.
Two days later I listened in horror when a Minister from Galway threatened to take away the livelihoods of this and future generations in my county.
That is not true.
I would like to know if this unprecedented breach of Cabinet collective responsibility is endorsed by the Leader of the House. I would also like to know if the Leader and his party fully support the publicly expressed views of their Cabinet colleague, the Minister for Arts, Culture and the Gaeltacht, Deputy M. Higgins.
The Senator heard the Taoiseach in the Dáil.
I would also like to know if the Minister for Agriculture, Food and Forestry, Deputy Yates, who visited Carrick-on-Shannon——
An Leas-Chathaoirleach
A question to the Leader.
——to have his photograph taken by The Leitrim Observer after getting his seal in the Park——
An Leas-Chathaoirleach
You cannot make a speech on the Order of Business.
——and who fully endorsed the Masonite project supports the publicly stated view of Deputy M. Higgins.
An Leas-Chathaoirleach
I ask the Senator to put a question to the Leader.
I ask the Leader, if I am allowed, what response——
The Minister, Deputy M. Higgins welcomed the jobs.
Senator Gerry Reynolds is looking after it.
An Leas-Chathaoirleach
Senator Mooney, without interruption.
I ask the Leader — I also address this to Senator Magner — if he accepts the unjustified attack by Deputy Bree on public servants earlier today.
It is normal practice to give references when a speech is quoted in this House. The Minister, Deputy M. Higgins, has been misquoted.
An Leas-Chathaoirleach
I ask Senator Magner to resume his seat.
An accurate account should be given.
An Leas-Chathaoirleach
For the last time, I ask Senator Mooney to put a question to the Leader relevant to the Order of Business.
Does the Leader accept the unjustified attack by Deputy Bree on public servants? I also want to know if one of his party members in Government, Deputy Yates, supports the views of his Cabinet colleague. Deputy M. Higgins?
An Leas-Chathaoirleach
You have already made that point, so I ask you to resume your seat.
I appreciate that you, a Leas-Chathaoirligh, are in a difficult position because the jobs which are threatened are also in your constituency.
An Leas-Chathaoirleach
I ask you not to involve the Chair and to please put any further questions to the Leader.
I intend to invoke Standing Order 29 this afternoon to suspend the Business of the House as a matter of national urgency.
An Leas-Chathaoirleach
That is your privilege as a Member of the House.
This is unprecedented, whether Senator Magner believes it or not. I want to know if the Minister can come into this House and explain the facts.
An Leas-Chathaoirleach
The Senator has put his question and he is now being repetitive. I call Senator Cassidy.
There is no need to worry because Senator Gerry Reynolds is looking after it.
I welcome the Minister of State at the Department of Foreign Affairs, Deputy Burton, to the House. I send the Cathaoirleach every good wish now that he has had his operation. I concur with Members on all sides on the House, particularly those from County Roscommon and County Leitrim, who are amazed at what has happened. I hope the Leader will have a debate here in the next few days.
It will be as bad as the vocational education committees.
We all recognise, including Senator Belton, who is not a stone's throw away from this area, the urgency of such a debate for those living in the west and midlands.
I concur with Senator O'Sullivan about a debate on Sunday trading.
The Senator's party looked after that.
An Leas-Chathaoirleach
Senator Cassidy, without interruption. Senator Belton will have an opportunity to speak later.
The Senator should be glad his name was mentioned.
Senator Cassidy is out of order.
An Leas-Chathaoirleach
Senator Cassidy, without interruption.
I ask the Leader if he will allocate time for a debate on Sunday trading. I am opposed to Sunday trading, not by the ordinary small shops and family stores but by the multinational stores. I ask the Leader to arrange for an urgent debate on this issue.
Last week I asked the Leader to consider the possibility of a debate on the press, especially the Irish Press. He did not consider this to be a good idea. In view of the statement issued by Éamon de Valera correcting allegations made by the Minister responsible, does the Leader now consider it wise to have a debate on this issue?
Last week I referred to the rip off by Telecom Éireann and other suppliers of Eircell telephones. Has the Leader had any response from the Minister on this matter? During the week one of the companies involved reduced the price of their telephones from £299 to £199.
I will keep that in mind.
If it can do this in a week it illustrates that there has been a rip off and it should be addressed by the Minister.
When does the Leader of the House envisage the introduction of legislation to delimit the powers of the local authorities to cut off the water supply and ensure that Democratic Left remain within Government? I understand the legislation was recently agreed by the Cabinet.
I thank the Leader of the Opposition for raising the matter of the Cathaoirleach. All of us formally send him our best wishes for a speedy recovery. It is heartening that the news is so good and we all look forward to seeing him back in the House at the earliest opportunity.
Various matters were raised by a number of speakers, so rather than deal with all the speakers I will deal with the main issues. There is no problem with the call for a debate on law and order. Members will see that we have a very busy schedule of legislation for the remainder of the session, but I will convey to the Minister, as a matter of urgency, the desire from all sides of the House to have such a debate in the immediate future. I will discuss the details with the Whips.
On the question of a debate on the economy, last week Senator Lee requested a debate on the OECD report. The Minister for Finance has agreed to this, and on Thursday, 22 June, there will be a debate on the OECD survey of the Irish economy which will allow Members raise the issues arising from the continued strong growth of the economy.
I do not have any plans for a debate on Sunday trading, although it is a serious matter. A casual trading Bill will be presented to the House before the end of the session which may allow an opportunity to raise some of these issues.
On the question of the vets, somebody once said that Senator O'Toole could never see a sleeping dog but he kicks it. He raised an issue today which generated a great deal heat in the House. There is no useful purpose in having a debate in the House, but if Members think otherwise I will ask the Minister to attend. This is an issue which requires resolution rather than——
It is such a misinformed Chamber.
Instant responses.
An Leas-Chathaoirleach
Senator Manning without interruption.
On the basis of the contributions today there is not much middle ground between both sides on this issue.
With regard to the Electoral Bill, it is not proposed to introduce the Bill in this session but I believe it will be introduced within the next two to two and a half years of the life of the Government, probably in the autumn.
On the question of the Shackleton Gardens, I can inform the Senator, courtesy of the Minister, that the Office of Public Works is becoming involved in the hope of buying the gardens on a phased basis.
The Minister is creating a precedent.
An Leas-Chathaoirleach
I ask Members to listen to the Leader's reply.
On the question of newspapers, no useful purpose would be served by having a debate in the House at this stage. Everybody knows that what is needed is investment in newspapers, including a business plan and confidence. I do not believe there is anything we can usefully do at this stage. I will talk to the Senator if he thinks otherwise, because we all want to see the return of the Irish Press Group, or a group in its place, functioning viably. If the Senator can persuade me such a debate would be useful I am willing to listen. I conveyed Senator Lanigan's message to the Minister, but I do not claim credit for the drop of £100 in the price being asked.
I raised that.
Senator Lanigan did that.
Senator Honan raised the issue of the implementation of the Child Care Act, 1991. The Minister responsible for the Act is Minister of State, Deputy Currie. He will come into the House soon.
For the information of the House and in response to a question last week from Senator Mullooly as to what Bills are before the House this session, it is hoped the following Bills will be dealt with before the end of this session: the Investment Intermediaries Bill; the Social Welfare [No. 2] Bill, which is part of the preparation for the divorce referendum; An Bord Bia Bill; the Tourist Traffic Bill; the Casual Trading Bill, 1994; the Transfer of Sentenced Prisoners Bill; the Civil Legal Aid Bill, 1994, which is currently going through the other House; the Local Government (Sanitary Services) Bill; the Consumer Credit Bill, 1994; the Minerals Development Bill and the Package Holidays and Travel Trade Bill, which are both in the other House at present; the Ethics in Public Office Bill, 1994; and the Family Law Bill, 1994. That is what the Government has asked of us between now and the end of the session. I am not sure if all of that can be done. It indicates a heavy load of legislation between now and the end of the session and limits to an extent the amount of time available for the discussion of topical issues. I will continue to try to do my best on that.
An Leas-Chathaoirleach
Is the Order of Business agreed?
On a point of order, is the Leader, by his deafening silence——
An Leas-Chathaoirleach
That is not a point of order and I ask——
There is no response at all. Do I take it as acquiescence——
An Leas-Chathaoirleach
That is not a point of order.
My apologies to the Senator. I am sorry. There were so many speakers on the Order of Business I overlooked Senator Mooney's questions. It was not intentional. He raised a number of questions. Minister M. Higgins is behaving in accordance with his statutory functions. Due process is being observed. The commitment of the Government to the project is without question. It is better that due process be observed rather than have the fiascos we had when due process was not observed in other cases. All Members of the House will be happy to see due process observed and the Minister behaving in accordance with his——
I am not that happy. Is he going to resign?
An Leas-Chathaoirleach
Senator Manning without interruption.
Is he going to resign? I want to know is the Minister going to resign? That is an inadequate answer and I do not accept it at all. This is a resigning matter.
An Leas-Chathaoirleach
If Senator Mooney does not resume his seat, I will adjourn the House.
Senator Reynolds is there.
I am so concerned about the jobs in my county. That is not an adequate reply. That is a bland and negative reply.
(Interruptions.)
It ill behoves the Senator, too, coming from Longford.
An Leas-Chathaoirleach
The House stands adjourned for 15 minutes until 3.20 p.m.
Sitting suspended at 3.5 p.m. and resumed at 3.20 p.m..
Order of Business agreed to.