I wish to remind Members that the Minister has 15 minutes. The proposer of the motion has 12 minutes and each speaker thereafter has eight minutes. The proposer has five minutes to reply.
Prison Places: Motion.
I move:
That Seanad Éireann, having regard to
the present overcrowded situation in Irish prisons and the urgent need for additional prison places;
the ever growing problem of serious crime and, in particular, of drug-related offences;
the additional pressure on prison accommodation which will result from the enactment of the Transfer of Sentenced Persons Bill, 1995, and from the stated intention of the Minister for Justice to change the law regarding bail;
the commitment in the Government Programme for Renewal that prisoners will be discharged from prison in an orderly manner and not on an ad hoc basis;
the very substantial expenditure which has already taken place in relation to the provision of a new prison in Castlerea, County Roscommon;
deplores the recent decision to defer this project indefinitely; and calls on the Government to reverse this decision and to proceed immediately with the provision of this prison in accordance with the commitment which was given by the previous Government and which was reiterated on a number of occasions by the present Minister for Justice.
I welcome the Minister to the House. In my contribution I do not intend to engage in any political point scoring or unfair criticism of the Minister for Justice. I come from County Roscommon and we never needed the support and goodwill of the Minister for Justice more than we do at present. Even though a Government amendment has been put down, there is not a single aspect of the motion with which any Member would disagree in any material respect.
The Minister for Justice would be the first to accept that there is a serious overcrowding problem in Irish prisons and an acute shortage of prison places. Many members of the Government are on record as acknowledging this fact. This situation has pertained for a number of years. Every day prisoners are released prematurely on an ad hoc basis. There are regular reports of prisoners being admitted to prison in the morning and released in the afternoon. The revolving door situation is nothing new. The people who should be behind bars are out and about and committing further crimes.
The Transfer of Sentenced Persons Bill is going through the Oireachtas at present and will soon become law. In reply to a Dáil question from Deputy John O'Donoghue on 11 May 1995, I understand the Minister for Justice stated it has been estimated that the number of prisoners who would apply for transfers to Irish prisons under this legislation would be approximately 40 in the first year and ten a year thereafter. It is obvious from these figures that the implementation of this legislation will put additional pressure on prison accommodation.
The Minister has also stated her intention to change the law with regard to bail. The Government's policy document, A Government of Renewal, provides for an examination by the Law Reform Commission of legislation to allow courts to refuse bail where the court considers it desirable to do so. On the basis of that report, I assume the necessary legislative changes will be put in train and, if necessary, that proposals will be brought forward for an amendment to the Constitution in order to tighten up the bail laws.
Everybody would welcome this move as an essential step in the fight against crime. When one considers the number of crimes committed by persons on bail and that this number has risen from approximately 2,500 in 1990 to approximately 4,500 in 1994, the urgent need for drastic changes to our bail laws is obvious. Such changes will have far-reaching implications for prisons.
The motion also refers to the ever growing problem of serious crime and drug related offences in particular. The Minister for Justice was quoted in one of the national newspapers last week as stating that the provisional crime figures for 1994 show an increase of 2.1 per cent on the 1993 figures. In the same report she was also quoted as stating that drug abuse is now a problem of serious proportions in Mountjoy Prison and that, at a conservative estimate, approximately 3,000 of the 6,000 to 7,000 inmates who will pass through Mountjoy this year will have a background of serious drug abuse in the community.
The Government amendment refers to the pressure placed on the prison system, caused not least by the extent of drug related crime. I welcome the recent initiatives taken by the Garda Síochána to make life more difficult for the drug barons and major drug dealers in Dublin and elsewhere in the country. Many of these people are quite well known to the Garda and newspaper crime reporters and security correspondents. It is extraordinary that we can read almost daily in the newspapers about the exploits and adventures of characters such as the Monk, the Penguin and the Footballer and yet for some reason the Garda Síochána is unable to secure sufficient evidence against these people to put them behind bars. I hope they and other perpetrators of serious crime will be tracked down, convicted and sentenced. The more successful the Garda is in dealing with them, the more the question of the availability of prison accommodation will arise. The Minister for Justice has expressed on several occasions her determination to deal with the perpetrators of serious crime and I want her to be successful in that effort. The more success she has, the more pressure will be put on our prisons.
I cannot understand the extraordinary decision two weeks ago to defer the building of the new prison in Castlerea. In March 1994 the then Government decided to provide a high security prison in Castlerea to cater for 150 male offenders and this was welcomed by people not only in Castlerea and County Roscommon but throughout the country. The fact that Castlerea was selected as the location for this new prison was warmly welcomed by the general public because it was seen as a vital step in the fight against crime and, just as importantly, it was seen as evidence of the Government's commitment to the development of the west because very little development has occurred there. The decision to provide the new prison in the grounds of St. Patrick's (Psychiatric) Hospital in Castlerea was seen as an earnest of the Government's decision to tackle in a serious way the spiralling crime wave which threatens this country.
While a high security prison catering for 150 inmates might not be Castlerea's first choice, if it had a choice, the proposed prison was seen as a development which would provide a lifeline to a town and community where the population and economy has long been in decline. The prospect of jobs and the economic activity which would be generated during and subsequent to the construction of the prison gave new hope to a whole region which badly needed a confidence boost. When the announcement about the prison was made, the local paper, the Roscommon Champion, commenting on the sheer elation and joyous celebrations in Castlerea which followed the announcement of the provision of the prison, stated that anybody could be forgiven for believing the entire town had won the lottery.
In June 1994 the building of the perimeter wall commenced. The wall is now almost completed at a cost of £2 million. It is almost a mile and a half long and 20 feet high. Tendering for the main prison building was set to close this month. In addition to the £2 million the wall has cost, the Department of Health provided a special grant of £3.1 million to the Western Health Board for the relocation of the psychiatric services and the patients who were housed in St. Patrick's Hospital. For this purpose the health board has acquired a number of properties in Castlerea, including the Don Arms Hotel. This £3.1 million is also committed at this stage. The total expenditure to date arising from the prison project is in excess of £5 million.
It is no wonder that people everywhere, especially in Roscommon and the west, could not believe their ears when, on 8 June, they heard the Castlerea prison project was being shelved. The dismay, disbelief and anger throughout the region were unprecedented. Sooner or later a prison will have to be built to provide the additional prison places so badly needed at present and which will be needed even more in the future for the reasons I outlined.
Surely, in view of the substantial expenditure which has already taken place on the Castlerea project, the obvious thing for the Government to do is to continue the provision of the prison without any interruption. Has the Government decided to abandon the project entirely? If this is the case, it will leave a mile and a half of wall, 20 feet high, which cost £2 million of public money as a monument to its memory in Castlerea.
I second the motion. It is sad that we have to try to change the Government's mind on the Castlerea project. It does not seem, from the Government's amendment, that it wishes to change its mind. The decision to defer or shelve the project is cruel and callous. What right has any Minister or Government to play political roulette with the people of Roscommon and, in particular, the staff and psychiatric patients at St. Patrick's Hospital, who now find themselves surrounded by a wall which is 20 feet high and one and a half miles long?
This must surely be a sick Irish joke. How can any Government or Minister stand over a decision to shelve a project which was announced by a previous Government, provided for in the Book of Estimates and on which £5 million to date has been spent? Surely there is a moral obligation to deal with public finances in a better way than this, apart from the consequences of the fight against crime and the devastation felt by the people of Castlerea and County Roscommon. Surely no Minister has the right to fool around with public funds in such a way. A sum of £1.5 million has been spent on this wall, a monument to this Government.
It seems extraordinary that there are 70 psychiatric patients and staff behind that wall. Their lives have been upset and they do not know where they stand. Can any thought be spared for the prison officers who bought sites and houses and made provisions for their families to move to the area? I attended a public meeting in Castlerea over a week ago. A person would have had to be there to believe the desperation in people's voices. They genuinely felt their opportunity had come to transfer to the west. Some had bought houses in Castlerea and Roscommon, and some had bought sites and were in the process of building houses. They suddenly found it was all in vain and they were caught in a catch-22. The wives and children of some prison officers in Mountjoy and Arbour Hill are living in Roscommon, and they now have to uproot themselves and try to establish a base in the city again. No Minister has the right to do that.
There are many aspects to this debate. It is the reversal of a decision made by the last Government. That decision was based on two very important points: the fight against crime and the need to provide extra prison spaces, which every Government over the last number of years has agreed on.
It was also a commitment to the decentralisation of Government services to the regions, in particular to support a major public debate and request from many people in the west, including the bishops, for the Government of the day to support the development of the west. That was all part and parcel of the last Government's decision. That commitment rings very hollow now because some Ministers say it has been deferred and another says it has been shelved.
One clear aspect of this decision, is that the people of County Roscommon have found themselves without any political clout at Cabinet or Minister of State level. They saw that at the time their project was shelved, not alone were other projects allowed to continue but new ones were announced. In the same week that the Castlerea project was shelved, a decision was taken to extend the light rail system into the heart of the by-election area. The people cannot be other than cynical when such decisions and announcements are made. I read in the newspaper afterwards that the decision on the light rail was taken in March and it was made public at the same time as the announcement was made about Castlerea.
The people of Castlerea are cynical and believe that they are paying the price for their lack of political clout as far as this Government is concerned. They see that because there was no vote for Deputy Quinn or the Labour Party in that constituency, the prison project could be shelved without doing any political damage to the Minister for Finance or his colleagues. I believe that if the area had had a Minister or a Minister or State this decision would not have been taken.
There seems to be plenty of money for other projects but not for the people of Castlerea or for the fight against crime. I totally reject the statement that extra spaces will be made available as a result of the peace process. From the information I have received from prison officers and others, it seems that 50 is the maximum number of places which will become available in that way. That will not solve the situation.
Every day there are between 600 and 700 criminals walking the streets who have been sentenced to imprisonment but are not in custody. As my colleague said, they are brought to prison in the morning and are given money, put on the train and are back in Roscommon, Ballinasloe and other towns in the midlands and the west before the gardaí who brought them to prison are home. Those facts were presented to me by members of the Garda Síochána and others. At the same time, we are turning down a project for which money was provided for in the Book of Estimates and which was to create prison spaces to help attack the major crime epidemic.
It was a political decision to scuttle the Castlerea project because there were no pluses in it for this Government. The last Government decided to put the prison there and this Government did not want to support a decision of the last Government. Therefore, they scuttled it and to hell with the people of Castlerea. In Cromwell's time the saying was "To hell or to Connacht"; today it is "To hell with Connacht".
I move amendment No. 1:
To delete all words after "Seanad Éireann" and substitute the following:
"mindful of the pressure placed upon the prison system, caused not least by the extent of drug related crime,
notes in particular, the review of prison operations with the objective of ensuring that optimum use is made of all available accommodation,
noting the enormous cost to this State from 25 years of violence, welcomes the opportunity and resources which have and will become available as a result of the Peace Process,
supports the use of non-custodial treatment of offenders, especially the possibilities for expansion of community sanctions and other measures as an alternative to imprisonment,
notes the commitment given by the Minister for Justice to bring forward comprehensive proposals to Government very shortly on important aspects of law enforcement and inter-agency co-operation with regard to the drugs problem,
welcomes the measures being taken to prevent drugs being smuggled into our prisons, and
supports the provision of treatment programmes within our prisons for those prisoners suffering from drug addiction.
As the House knows, the Government has commenced a review of the 1996 budget, as was agreed in the programme A Government of Renewal. The Government is committed under that programme to achieving a target of 2 per cent real growth in gross current supply services expenditure in 1996. The Government is determined to ensure a strategic approach to the allocation of available resources in 1996. This will involve all Ministers, including the Minister for Justice, in a review of the existing policies and expenditures with a view to maximising benefit within the Government's spending target for 1996.
It was in this context that the Government found it necessary to defer — and I emphasise the word defer — the Castlerea project. The House will be aware that a contract for the perimeter wall and associated works was placed in May 1994 and is due for completion by the end of this month. The total cost of this contract will amount to approximately £1.3 million and works under this contract are virtually complete.
I wish to convey the apologies of the Minister for Justice for not attending this debate, although she is more than adequately replaced by the Minister of State. The Minister for Justice intended to be here but she had travel difficulties getting back from Brussels and, unfortunately, she was unable to make the debate.
At present, there are 12 prisons, including three open centres in the State — Mountjoy Prison, the training unit in Portlaoise, Arbour Hill, Limerick, Cork, St. Patrick's Institution, Wheatfield, Fort Mitchell, Loughane House, Shelton Abbey and Shanganagh Castle — allowing for a total of approximately 2,240 prison spaces. The Department of Education has places of detention at Oberstown and Trinity House, each of which accommodates up to 30 people. The Minister is reviewing all aspects of prison operations with the objective of ensuring that optimum use is made of all available prison accommodation. In particular, the Minister is examining the opportunities which are likely to arise in Portlaoise following the effects of the peace process.
She is also examining the issue of payment of fines and debts by such means as attachment of income or a phased payment system, to which I will refer later. Such changes will ensure that punishment other than custody can be used for such offenders. Although the number in custody at any time for such offences is small, the Minister is most anxious that more serious criminals will occupy prison spaces. Within the limits of financial constraints, the Minister will also be taking a hard look at the non-custodial treatment of offenders, especially opportunities for the expansion of community sanctions, as an alternative to imprisonment in suitable cases.
As outlined in the Government's amendment and in the motion, drug related crime is putting extensive pressure on our prison service. Seventy per cent of the inmates of Limerick Prison are in for drug related offences. However, there is no drug problem in Limerick Prison and what has happened there should be examined in the context of what is happening in other prisons.
There has been an unprecedented level of success in counteracting the drug trafficking problem in 1995. A few weeks ago we outlined the successes, and there have been more since then. This tends to highlight the level of drug activity, but it also highlights the success of the Garda their fight against drug trafficking. While we are targeting drug traffickers and peddlers, we are not doing enough in terms of the demand for drugs. We should educate more and point out to those who use drugs and who are being misled the dangers of taking that route and the eventual outcome for most. If there is a demand, there will be a supply. If we reduce the supply, we will drive up the price if the demand remains. It is important that both go hand in hand.
The Minister for Justice is determined that all possible steps are taken to deal with the drugs situation. The Garda Commissioner has focused special attention on the drugs situation because it is at the root of a significant proportion of crimes committed in our society and is the cause of the pressure in the prison service. All Garda drug units are co-ordinated on a national basis through the National Drugs Administration Office in Garda headquarters, which is staffed by full-time gardaí with a detailed and specialised knowledge of the drug problem. In Dublin drug units have been established in each of the five Garda divisions and their activities are co-ordinated through the central drugs squad.
In recent weeks we have heard about the number of gardaí assigned to full-time drugs duties. It is claimed that there has been a reduction in their numbers since the mid-1980s. The facts tell a different story in that twice as many gardaí are employed in the drugs unit than in 1985. There are now drug units outside Dublin in Cork, Galway and Limerick.
We all know about the tremendous profit which can be made from drugs. It is not sufficient that drug traffickers who carry on this evil trade are dealt with by way of imprisonment and fines. Other measures are called for; in particular, the confiscation of the proceeds of drugs. These measures are provided for in the Criminal Justice Act, 1994. It is evident from the Act that our law makes extensive provision for powers which enable the law enforcement authorities to identify and secure restraint and confiscation orders in respect of the proceeds of drug trafficking. These powers came into operation in November 1994. In addition, the Minister for Justice has brought into force, with effect from 2 May 1995, a number of provisions in the 1994 Act which requires banks and other financial bodies to take certain measures — for example, the identification of customers and reporting suspicious transactions — which will make it more difficult for drug traffickers to launder their dirty money.
Efficiency in the prison service is important. We must ensure that taxpayers get the maximum value for money. We must also ensure that the transfer of Garda and prison resources, thankfully coming on stream as a result of the peace process, is carefully done. Careful planning must be applied to ensure the maximum benefit of the reallocation of resources so that it targets more serious crime.
For centuries our approach to crime has been to send people to prison. Imprisonment is important as regards those who have committed serious offences. However, a different approach should be taken for the non-payment of small debts, fines and so on. Areas which should be looked at have been discussed in the House on numerous occasions. We should look at the use of probation and fines rather than imprisonment. We should confiscate income or assets in certain cases. Restitution should be paid, particularly to the victims of crime. We should expand community service orders and look at the disqualification and withdrawal of licences and require more attendance at treatment centres.
We should also look at the confiscation of goods. For example, if a person does not tax or insure their car, we should confiscate it rather than send them to prison. The same should apply to those who fail to pay their television licence. Rather than imposing a heavy fine, which is sometimes not paid, or sending them to prison, we should confiscate the television. We must look at alternatives to sending people to prison. Last year an 18 or 19 year old girl spent two weeks in prison for not paying her DART fare. That should not happen. Serious offenders should be in prison, not those who commit minor offences.
I welcome the document which the previous Minister for Justice produced last year on the management of offenders. It was the first time the Department of Justice produced a document which contained a plan. I was delighted that it was under the heading of management of offenders and not of prisoners or so forth. I find it depressing that so early in this Government the plan appears to be abandoned and we seem to be proceeding on an ad hoc basis again.
I have great sympathy for the inhabitants of Castlerea as regards the "delay" in building the prison there. However, I was one of those who questioned the wisdom of building a prison there. Those in Castlerea suffered a blow when the psychiatric institution was closed down and they now suffer the double blow because the prison, which was promised, may or may not proceed in the future.
There was a considerable amount of criticism as regards siting the prison in Castlerea. In all studies on prison it is reckoned that the most important thing is to try to keep them as close as possible to the centre where the prisoner lives so they can maintain contact with their families. Although sanction is imposed on the prisoner, their liberty is taken away and they are unable to commit crime, we must hope for rehabilitation so they can be let out into the community again. One of the strongest findings as regards the prevention of recidivism is that there should be close contact between prisoners and their families for the duration of the sentence to try to build up some home life and structure for the person to come out to. Building a prison in the midst of County Roscommon, an area not noted for great crime, was doubtful. However, I understand the dismay of the people of Castlerea.
It was a strange decision to build a prison in Castlerea in view of the fact that Wheatfield prison is only half developed. Some 320 places have been provided in that prison. It is a serviced site and another 300 places could be created if additional accommodation was built. It is one of the best prisons around and it has splendid facilities; it even has a theatre. I question why that site was not developed because it is easily accessible and most prisoners come from the Dublin and surrounding areas. It was an odd decision that it was not looked at first.
The delay — I presume it is only a delay — in building the women's prison should give us time to have a greater public debate as regards the type of women's prison we need. Each year 20 to 30 people occupy the prison here. It was proposed to build a prison with 60 secure places. I realise attempts were being made to have a drug free area and to have high and less secure areas. However, a prison with 60 secure places is considerable in a country of this size, given that Iceland manages without any at all. I know it is small country with remote places where it can put serious criminals to keep them out of the way of the population.
I have visited women's prisons abroad. We had a large plan and we should look at it again. It must be remembered that 95 per cent of women in prison are in for shop lifting and 95 per cent of them are drug addicts. They are in for two to three weeks; they are out and they are in again. We have, therefore, no notion of how many women, indeed how many people, go in and out of Mountjoy Prison. There are so many readmissions of the same people that it is impossible to keep up with the statistics.
It is right that all speakers have mentioned the appalling situation in our prisons. I was interested in Senator Neville's remarks regarding Limerick Prison, but the important thing to remember about the serious situation with Mountjoy Prison is that it is a remand prison. People are coming in, going out and going to the courts. In addition, there are visitors every day. It is, therefore, a nightmare trying to prevent drugs from getting into the prison.
The notions of strip searchers, sniffer dogs and so on are pathetic because they have been found to be useless elsewhere. In addition, prisoners are inclined to react to a challenge to see if they can overcome it. Has the Minister considered more positive things that can be done? For example, given the way it is presently constructed, we cannot have drug free areas within the prison. However, it should be possible for prisoners to volunteer for urine analysis and where it was found that they were drug free for five days of the week they could be let out for the weekends. This would be a positive development. The prisoners would have a carrot to stay off drugs for the week and they could at least go to see a football match at the weekend.
Or a rugby match.
Such a move would also provide space in the prison at the really serious times when there are crises — for example, when people are admitted to prison at weekends — with the result that people have to be given temporary release for no reason. I do not suggest that serious and violent be criminals be released in this way, only those imprisoned on lesser charges. Other imaginative programmes must be considered.
There is no counselling regarding drug abuse in the prisons. There is only a pathetic, almost cold turkey, physeptone programme, where the men get one week's physeptone and the women two weeks. Any programme under three weeks is very little. In addition there is nothing regarding alcoholism. Alcohol is a very serious drug. While prisoners may not be getting it while in prison, alcohol is seriously involved in recidivism. When they eventually stop reoffending, an enormous number of prisoners realise that alcohol was heavily involved in the times they reoffended and that if they can avoid alcohol they are less likely to reoffend. We talk about drug facilities in prison and the rehabilitation of offenders. It is now midsummer's day, yet when the snowdrops were here I was promised by the Minister of State that the detoxification unit was about to open in Cherry Orchard.
The psychiatric situation must be tackled because it goes along with the drugs problem. According to the director of Dundrum Mental Hospital, there are ten psychotic patients every day in Mountjoy Prison. Dundrum has been described as not suitable for the kind of patients it is treating. Mentally handicapped patients, who should be described as patients and not as prisoners, are not assessed or segregated once they get into Mountjoy Prison.
I am glad to see that legislation will be enacted to substitute community service for lesser crimes. The present position in this respect is ridiculous. With regard to the transfer of prisoners legislation, prisoners abroad should be told about what they are coming home to. A home description of the prison they were to enter may deter some of them from transferring.
With regard to the cutback in the building programme, will the Minister ensure that the replacement visitors' centre in Mountjoy Prison is not abandoned? The present visitors' centre is disgusting; it is a disgrace. The Religious Society of Friends, the Quakers, have offered to run the Mountjoy service and I understand the Department of Justice is enthusiastic about this. They already run the two services in the visitors' centres at the Maze Prison and Maghaberry Prison in Northern Ireland. If any building work is to be kept on with these cutbacks, I urge that it be this centre. It is an appalling experience to visit Mountjoy Prison and see where we are incarcerating people. It is enough to take peoples' liberty from them, never mind treating them in this inhumane manner, where a large number of them do not have daylight. Retaining the programme to build the replacement visitors' centre would show that we had some notion of following the management of offenders plan.
I second the amendment to the motion. The motion as put in both cases is varied and it is difficult to focus on any specific issue when addressing the issue of crime in general and the prison system specifically.
We live in a society where, unfortunately, crime has become all too common. It is not only an Irish but a world problem, stemming in many ways from the same developments that opened up telecommunications, transport and so on. This opened our little place on earth to the influence of greater forces. When so many people have televisions, videos and satellite dishes, it is no wonder that the ill effects of displays of violence, sex crimes and abuse, which are viewed almost as heroic on our television screens every day of the week, arise in society.
We should tackle the causes of these problems rather than the symptoms. The focus of the Fianna Fáil motion is towards the incarceration of all unwelcome people in our society, preferably by imprisoning them at the proposed Castlerea Prison. This is not the answer; it is certainly not as simple as this. We must develop a society where people accept individual responsibility for their own actions. Nowadays we talk of our rights and entitlements, but not our duties. In this respect education has a major role to play in promoting individual and civic responsibility. Young people need to be taught the value of property; it does not grow on trees. They also need to be taught the impact of crimes on their victims and on society. In this respect we must again consider how we should control the availability of videos, satellites and so on. It is difficult in this day and age, but their availability starts the ball rolling with regard to many of the problems we have. Not everything is down to the Government of the day to tackle. Individuals, especially parents, have a responsibility to know where their children are at night, to know what is happening within their own family and to deal with it as best they can in a tough world.
With regard to the drugs crisis, legislation was introduced recently dealing with the proceeds of the trade. The legislation improves the powers of the Garda Síochána in making arrests where drugs are involved, which is welcome. However, we appear to be almost powerless in the face of what is a global, highly organised racket. We should introduce drugs legislation where it hurts the drug traffickers — in their pockets. Those with lifestyles which exceed what the social welfare system could afford them, including the drug barons in this city, should be subject to legislation which would allow the Revenue Commissioners or the Garda to take cases against them for tax evasion, or whatever it takes to ensure that a jail sentence follows, in addition to stripping them of their illgotten gains. We must address the confiscation of the proceeds of crime. The drug dealers need to be tackled in this way; otherwise we have no hope.
There is much talk about the peace process relieving space available in prisons. With regard to the Garda Síochána, it is suggested that we do not need the number of gardaí in the Border region that have been deployed hitherto. However, we continue to need the same number of gardaí because the drug trafficking and the availability of drugs in the Border region was to some extent controlled by paramilitary organisations and they are no longer involved in this activity. This has resulted in an additional problem for people in my region, where we must now deal with the increased problem of drug availability. I therefore urge the Minister and the Department of Justice to ensure the continuing availability of the gardaí we need in areas such as County Cavan and County Monaghan.
The proposed prison in Castlerea was to have provided another 150 places. In terms of what I have read regarding prison systems generally, that is not a lot. It certainly would not have solved the problem. We might still have had a lack of space and increasing crime rates. Locking people behind doors is not the obvious solution. We already have 12 prisons, three open centres and two education institutions, which hold a total of 2,240 people. If we need more spaces, we should look at finishing Wheatfield Prison, which is already under way. That would be an obvious answer. We should also look at converting the old military barracks that are available in this city. As Senator Henry said, these buildings are situated near where the perpetrators and their families live.
We should look at building or providing separate remand centres. It obviously does not work in the likes of Mountjoy Prison where one has long term prisoners mixing with people who are in and out on a daily basis. It would be much more practical in terms of security and in dealing with the drug problem within the prison system to have separate remand centres. Existing facilities in our cities could be converted for that very purpose.
We must, however, examine the non-custodial treatment of offenders in a serious way. The motion put down by Fianna Fáil does not do that. It costs at least £700 a week to keep somebody behind bars. One could stay in the best hotel in Ireland for the same money. That is an enormous cost, not only for the Government but the taxpayer as well, and there is no return for it. The 1992 Report on Prisons and Places of Detention, which was published in 1994, recommended that radical alternatives be provided for prisoners, such as community work or the expansion of the programme of prisoners aid through community effort.
When we talk about prisons, are we saying that we want to get the troublemakers out of society for a while, punish them for their wrongdoing or rehabilitate them in the hope that there will be fewer criminals in the future. As things stand, we are only dealing with the first option. We are putting them behind bars, but we are not punishing them as befits the crime — victims have to be remembered in that regard — and we are not addressing rehabilitation at all. These people need to be shown a more useful way to conduct themselves in society, whether that is by getting involved in voluntary work or the need to get some training. These people come from disadvantaged areas throughout out country. In the main, they never had a chance. Education within the prison system could open a door for them. They may not have known they had a talent in a certain area.
On the practical side, I look at Loughan House in my constituency. People are often delighted to get back there because they meet up with their old friends, have some craic and are treated well for a while and things are relatively easy there, although the more serious criminals do not go there. I would be happy to see a work system being brought in that would allow those prisoners to be involved in draining the sides of the roads where there are serious road problems, in planting shrubs and trees, in painting walls and in doing up derelict buildings. Not only would that give something to the prisoners, it would also deliver something back to the society from which they have taken. That would be a practical and useful way to rehabilitate prisoners.
In dealing with the speakers on the Fianna Fáil motion, it would be easy to be political and say that Castlerea got a hard deal because of this Government. It is not fair to say that the Minister for Finance, Deputy Quinn, would have ulterior motives in making that decision. Fianna Fáil seem to think that no Government can make decisions based on objective fact. It would prefer to pull strokes or deals, but that is not the way that we in public office should behave and it is not the way this coalition behaves. We practice what we preach in terms of accountability and the books must add up. They will not if we continue to put money in on the basis of previous promises.
I feel sorry for the people of Castlerea. I come from a rural area and I know the importance of getting jobs into the community. However, the prison should not be the be all and end all. It would serve the same politicians well to put their energies into working with the Government in the hope of getting manufacturing or service industry jobs into Castlerea and I support their efforts in that regard. That idea could get support. In putting jobs into the area, they should not depend on locking people behind bars as their sole source of income.
In terms of the motion, it is important for us to realise that the Minister for Justice has a job to do. The priorities of that would rest in tackling the serious nature of drug trafficking and drug crimes throughout this country. In that regard, that is where the primary effort should lie.
A letter published in yesterday's Irish Times from a resident of Castlerea, Marian Caulfield, whom I do not know, expresses in far more eloquent terms than I ever could the sense of despair at the stupidity of the Government's decision to abandon this project. This letter says that “The recent decision to defer the project for Castlerea is a cynical exercise in political expediency.” It goes on to say that
I was born and bred in the west of Ireland and I am proud of it. It is heartbreaking to watch the decline of the entire region in economic, in sporting and in human terms. We were being given a lifeline, just to have it cruelly withdrawn in order that we may stay in line for our EU partners in monetary union. It might perhaps profit the present Government Ministers more to part with their "Programme Managers" and "Advisers" for the greater good of fiscal rectitude! Of course Labour and Democratic Left are not depending on votes in the west.
The Government has abandoned the west. It has also given up the ghost in the fight against crime. The Minister's predecessor had put together the biggest peacetime plan for tackling crime. It consisted of 13 major initiatives at a cost of £66 million. This Government is now dismantling this unprecedented plan of action, brick by brick, just as it is dismantling the necessary facility earmarked for Castlerea.
It is patent nonsense for the Minister's socialist colleague in the Department of Finance to say that the effects of the peace dividend are such that Castlerea prison or the extra gardaí are no longer required. The Minister also had the bare faced cheek to lecture us that Portlaoise Prison, now that it is empty according to him, will house ordinary criminals. This is stretching our credibility to breaking point. Some 60 republican prisoners were housed in Portlaoise Prison. The recent releases have diminished this somewhat, so at the very most 60 places will be available, and probably not for some time to come.
Contrast this with the 700 criminals who are allowed to roam freely around the streets this very evening because there is no place to put them. My party never pretended that Castlerea or the new women's prison would solve all the problems. In fact, the plan devised by the former Minister for Justice, Deputy Geoghegan-Quinn, which was referred to earlier, had an element to recruit more probation and welfare officers to supervise those prisoners released on a proper basis. The previous Government made a start — a good, honest attempt at solving the problem. This Government, with its battalions of advisers, programme managers and back up staff, is saying to the countless victims of crime that it has nothing to offer to them. They should go home and lock their doors and make fortresses out of their houses. Fine Gael was once known as the law and order party. It is no longer the law or the order party. It is now succumbing to the socialist dogma and indeed, other agendas.
The Minister for Justice turns her back and what happens, she not alone is knifed by her partners in Government but also by her party, including her party leader, and this was done to the Deputy Leader of Fine Gael. By way of illustration of this Government's attitude to the crime problem in Ireland and the casual, uncaring approach to its victims, we read that £10 million has been found for a museum in Galway, £2 million to close down two car parks in Clare and Wicklow and £700,000 to buy a private house and garden in Clonsilla. Yet the Government cannot seem to find a further £2 million or £3 million to move the Castlerea project into the construction phase. Need I say more?
In conclusion, I say to the people of Castlerea that their spirit was not broken by Cromwell or the Famine and it will not be broken by the present Government. They are unlucky because had it been a Labour Party or Democratic Left Minister for Justice, there would be JCBs and bulldozers in Castlerea at present. I rest my case.
I believe that all Members would agree that there is a serious problem with regard to crime in Ireland. The present Minister for Justice is making a major effort to try to combat and tackle crime. It is important that there be widespread agreement about many of the issues we are discussing here.
I found it somewhat amusing that, two days after the recent change of Government, the former Minister of State at the Department of Justice, Deputy O'Dea, commented on the sudden escalation of crime across Ireland. I do not know whether the then Minister or his advisers told the Deputy that there was a considerable amount of crime during his time as Minister of State; the situation did not worsen overnight. This is a problem which we all must confront.
I would like to make a number of suggestions. I genuinely believe that the Garda Síochána are now facing criminals with one hand tied behind their backs. They are up against a very well organised, highly efficient and ruthless group of criminals. The Garda Síochána are a very skilled and professional force but, irrespective of their efforts, they are finding it very difficult to get people to come forward to give evidence because of intimidation. We have seen where a journalist was attacked, intimidated and threatened with murder. We have to be very careful about the direction we are taking. Building a prison at Castlerea will not solve the entire problem. Unless major efforts are made in the area of criminal law, intimidation will be rife within five years and the situation will be completely out of hand.
The time has come for a close examination of the rules of evidence. They need to be changed, as does the situation with regard to the right to silence. Unless the right to silence is closely examined and amending legislation introduced so that people will have to account for their movements, we will face turmoil in the future. An ordinary law abiding citizen must answer specific questions when the Revenue Commissioners call on him. He has to give account of where he obtained money, where he went on holidays, how his wife managed to get a new coat or how he managed to change his car. Everyone has to answer these kinds of questions. There is no right to silence. The Revenue Commissioners are empowered to enter premises, seize books and documents for examination and people must explain their business dealings to them.
I will give an example of a serious crime that took place — it was actually murder — in this country. When the accused was brought in for questioning he said he wanted his solicitor, his doctor and his dinner. He has not opened his mouth since his three requests were granted. We are dealing with quite ruthless and sophisticated people who know their rights. If things continue as they are it will be almost impossible of the Garda Síochána to obtain convictions in court. However, I also believe that fair play for everyone is important.
I would like to see a major effort made to clean up Mountjoy Prison. I have visited Mountjoy on a number of occasions and spoken to many people who have been there. People break laws and are committed to prison; it is a serious thing for a person to go to prison. However, I believe that whatever wrong they committed, people should be in good health when they are set free. At present there is a drugs problem in Mountjoy which did not arise when the Minister of State, the Minister for Justice or the former Minister came to power. The problem is ongoing. I am not pointing the finger at anyone. A serious effort must be made to ensure that drugs are not allowed into Mountjoy and that people who are on drugs are segregated so that other prisoners do not come into contact with them.
I have met many respectable young people who committed crimes but are still respectable and decent in many ways. They do not fear the prison sentence. They fear the unknown in Mountjoy Prison with regard to drugs and the AIDS problem. We must ensure that people's health is not put at risk when they are placed in Mountjoy. People should be put to work when they are in prison; there should be a strict regime; prison should not be a holiday camp. People should know they are in prison but they should be clothed, fed and exercised properly while they are there. When their sentence is completed, they should re-enter society a little better than when they were put in prison.
There are many prison spaces across the country. I believe a prison in Castlerea would benefit many people. I hope the decision made with regard to Castlerea is short term and that the prison will eventually be built there.
Crime is a very serious problem at the present time. I wonder if any real effort is being made to put an end to it. When I see old age pensioners being mugged in broad daylight and no one arrested for it, BMWs being stolen in this city — the culprits have a planned programme of ramming different premises and robbing them — and the Garda Síochána see the offence but cannot follow those involved, something is radically wrong. There is also something wrong when journalists can practically name the criminals, trace them down and yet the law cannot. What is the reason for this?
Something should be done about the right to silence but it is also very important that people have a solicitor with them. I would not have said that two years ago. However, I know four men who came across a man lying dead on the road on their way home. He had been the victim of a hit and run accident. The men telephoned the Garda and the ambulance service. The Garda told them to go about their business and thanked them for doing the good deed. Three days later when there was a fuss because no one had been apprehended, those boys were hauled in. Four squad cars arrived at a man's house and a van was seized. The headlines ran: "Van driver helping police with inquiries".
Luckily I went with those lads to the barracks. We thought we were going to help the Garda. One of the lads asked for a solicitor and I went with another. They tried to argue that the lad was driving the van, forcing him to admit that he had killed this man. I intervened in the end and told them about something I witnessed that affected some of them. It hit too close to the bone and that finished the inquiry.
Some days later a superintendent told me that when the forensic experts finished examining the van I would be proved wrong, but the forensic experts could find nothing on the van because it never touched the man. They held parts of that van for three months, which is blackguardly work. This is why you have to be very careful.
Some Garda are hell bent on getting someone, regardless of who they might be. It may only be a small minority in the Garda but one is enough to give the lot a bad name. A solicitor must be there at all times but we should not be pussyfooting at the same time. We must be careful to see that things are done correctly. I would hate to think what might have happened if I had not been there that evening.
Recently I was playing golf with a detective who said: "For heaven's sake will you talk to the Minister for Justice and put every man we have on crime for one year. Forget about road traffic accidents because if crime is not faced up to with every available man, soon this country will not be fit to live in." That is the stage we are getting to.
There have been several crimes in my own area, including the shooting of a postman. The poor fellow has died since and no one was ever arrested even though it happened in broad daylight in a quiet rural area and the barracks was not closed.
Too many Garda are on road traffic duty harassing the poor old motorist who is treated like a criminal in today's society, although he is going about his business and working hard. Maybe he has the right foot too heavily on the accelerator at times, but no drink has been taken and very often he wears a pioneer pin in his coat. He may be cruising at 75 or 80 mph and is no danger to anybody but he is still brought before the court and fined.
The criminals can do 120 mph however, and the gardaí seem to let them pass and wave them good-bye. Is it not time our Garda were supplied with specially reinforced jeeps so that they can meet those vehicles head on? We have to do something to apprehend these people.
There should be an Army unit for all those joy riders, not to abuse them but to take them in for two or three years to educate and train them. They have brains in abundance and great ability but they are focused in the wrong direction. We should make more use of our Army; with a good training school those boys would have enough people to supervise them and they could learn about the good side of life. Their talents could be used in a productive manner. I have been saying this for some time but nobody takes any heed of it.
Manpower is wasted in other areas also. The other day I gave a lift to a poor alcoholic whom I know very well. He said that he had been in Mountjoy Prison because he was caught after hours in a pub. He was fined £25 even though he did not have two pence to rub together. Since he could not pay the fine two gardaí spent three or four days trying to get him to pay it. Then they employed a taxi to drive him to Mountjoy but when he arrived there the prison governor said it would cost more to feed him there for five days than the £25 fine and he sent him home because there was no place for him.
The man could not go home because he had no money, so another taxi was called to drive him to Connolly Station. They put him on the train back to Sligo. How much money and time were wasted in that exercise? Is it not time we stopped that kind of nonsense? I appeal to the Minister because this is happening all over Ireland. Poor fellows are being dragged into prison for a paltry few pounds that they have not got. We might as well write it off from the word go. It is nonsensical to summons them in the first place because they have a problem and they badly need help. That kind of help, however, is no good.
We also have to come to grips with the problem of drugs in prisons. What is the point of sentencing someone who may only be dabbling in drink but who will leave prison a drug addict? We are adding insult to injury.
We must take positive action if we are to come to grips with crime, otherwise it will destroy our tourism business. Tourists are being picked off in Dublin in broad daylight. The money should be found to pay Garda overtime and to put every available man out there for one year to catch criminals. There is not a teenager going to a disco who cannot tell you who is selling drugs. They can get drugs, yet the Garda cannot catch the pushers. Why? There is something basically wrong there and this must be talked out with the Garda. We must find out why they are not doing their work.
In many cases the courts have gone soft and judges will have to realise that they are dealing with criminals. When they have plenty of evidence that a man, woman or person — it is an awful job trying to be politically correct when you are speaking — is guilty, they should be kept in prison, but they know they will be set free and they can commit as much crime as they like because they will get away with one summons and one fine.
I could continue speaking on crime for an hour because it is a serious issue. I feel sad about what is happening in Castlerea because we do not have enough prison places. Let us release people who should not be in prison in the first instance. Let us rethink the Castlerea decision because if we do not provide places for those people we cannot hold them on remand. We must be able to hold them on remand because they know that once they are pulled, they have a free passport to rob and plunder as much as they like. They know that there will only be one sentence regardless of the number of crimes they commit.
I apologise for the absence of the Minister for Justice who had hoped to be here. Unfortunately, she was unable to return in time for the debate, although she would have wished to be here in person.
There can be no doubt in this House or anywhere else that the fight against drugs is a matter of the highest priority for the Government, but if the Opposition is honest it will know that there is no simplistic answer to this complex problem.
As a society our core values and stability are threatened by all crime but particularly by drug related crime. With other developed countries we are facing an attempt by the international drugs trade and their local Irish associates to flood Ireland with drugs. Let there be no doubt about the Government's resolve to deal with this threat using all the resources at our disposal.
I think it is fair to say that we are facing, in Dublin, Cork and other cities, a threat from drugs which is on the same scale as that which was posed by terrorist violence. I am aware that even small towns and villages which were previously considered immune from the drugs problem are now also facing this problem. Now that we are in the process of achieving a permanent and lasting peace on this island, we can properly anticipate devoting some of the resources of the peace dividend to tackling this grave threat to our society.
The fight against drugs is a fight which engages not just the Department of Justice but almost every Department. This Government has invested huge resources in education particularly in disadvantaged areas; it has invested in local development in disadvantaged areas; it is utterly committed to bringing deprived people and their areas into the mainstream of society. In the long term, this investment is of much greater value than a simplistic solution which is solely centred on prisons.
I want to remind the House that prisons are a sign of failure in society. The achievement of social order and harmony is best progressed by positive initiatives in the areas of education and employment. Building more prisons means society is failing to achieve the order and harmony which it ought to.
Not only are prisons an indication of failure but they themselves often fail to achieve their intended purpose, as many Senators on both sides of the House pointed out. It would seems logical that if you lock up as many offenders as possible, the rest of society would be orderly and harmonious; but this is not the case. The society with the highest rate of imprisonment in the western world — the United States — is not a safer, more crime free society than Ireland is.
Compare the size of the two countries.
I am not suggesting that prisons are not needed. They are because society has, and will always have, failure. Should we succumb to address our failures in a negative rather than a positive way? We need to look to alternatives. Investment in education, local development and employment will have long term effects. In the short term, we intend to address the major problem of drugs and to look at non-custodial alternatives to prison.
In relation to drugs, the multi-agency approach involving the Departments of Health, Justice and Education and their respective agencies, has been recognised by the Government as providing the best possible framework to deal with the problem. Essentially, we must deal not just with the supply of drugs, but also the demand; we must focus on both parts of the equation.
This is precisely what the Government strategy to prevent drug abuse is about. It proposes a multi-disciplinary approach requiring action in the areas of supply reduction, demand reduction and increased access to treatment and rehabilitation programmes. In other words, the strategy calls for integrated action on the problem on a number of different levels. This approach provides the best possible framework for dealing with the problem.
Turning to the specific law enforcement response, which is, of course, an essential subset of the broader multi-agency response, I want to point out the following: all Garda drug units throughout the country are co-ordinated on a national basis through the national drug administration office in Garda headquarters, which is staffed by full-time gardaí with a detailed and specialised knowledge of the drugs problem; in Dublin, which is the main area where heroin is a problem, drug units have been established in each of the city's five Garda divisions and their activities are co-ordinated through the central drug squad. In addition to the central drug squad, full-time drug units operate in Santry, Cabra, Raheny, Dún Laoghaire, Crumlin, Ballyfermot, Tallaght, Store Street, Pearse Street, Kevin Street and Donnybrook; outside Dublin, there are full-time drug units in Cork, Galway and Limerick. While the strengths of individual units naturally fluctuates, I can assure Senators that we have never had more specialist garda committed to the fight against drugs.
The Garda and the Customs and Excise service, supported when required by the Defence Forces, have had a number of very significant drug seizures. Indeed, as the Seanad will acknowledge, record amounts have been seized and the law enforcement agencies deserve the thanks of a grateful nation. These seizures are not, of course, any reason for complacency. There can be no doubt about the extent of the problem. Nevertheless, the seizures show we can hit the traffickers and we must continue to do so.
While on the subject of interagency co-operation, I should mention that the Department of Justice has finalised a detailed and comprehensive report on important aspects of law enforcement in relation to the drug problem here. It will form the basis of a comprehensive and far-reaching set of proposals to be brought before Government shortly. The main task of the report was to identify the best arrangements for achieving a cohesive and co-ordinated response to the drug trafficking problem by the existing law enforcement agencies and the proposals will mainly be concerned with this aspect.
However, the report also examined the legal powers of members of the law enforcement agencies and the need for legislative changes to assist the law enforcement response. The contribution in the health and education areas in developing strategies to reduce demand for drugs is also considered and the proposals that will be brought to Government shortly will cover all these aspects.
We are not in a position, for obvious reasons, to search every person and consignment that comes into the State. Effective intelligence-based strategies are crucial in combating the importation of drugs; and in this regard the European Drugs Unit, which was established in the context of the relaxation of frontier controls within the EU, plays a major role. The unit, which became operational in 1994, is charged with the essential mission of exchanging and coordinating drugs intelligence throughout the EU. A liaison officer from the Garda Síochána is serving with the unit.
There has been a great deal of comment about those who organise the importation and distribution of drugs without ever coming into contact with the drugs they trade in — the so-called "drugs barons". It is suggested they are in some way beyond the reach of the law. Let me state here and now that we are determined to get at those who direct things behind the scenes. In this regard, the Criminal Justice Act, 1994 provides for the seizure and confiscation of the proceeds of crime, including drug trafficking. Part II of the 1994 Act confers power on a court to make a confiscation order on the application of the Director of Public Prosecutions against a person who has been convicted of a drug trafficking offence. For that purpose, "drug trafficking" is defined in the broadest terms, including importing drugs into the State and laundering the proceeds of trafficking. Where a court determines the offender has benefited from drug trafficking, it can make a confiscation order for the amount of the benefit he or she has received from all drug trafficking and not merely from the specific offence in respect of which he or she has been convicted.
Another feature of the Act is that it provides that a court is required to assume that all property in the hands of an offender at the time of conviction and all income or other assets received by him or her in the previous six years were part of the proceeds of drug trafficking. It is up to the defendant to prove to the court that particular assets including money or property were not, in fact, derived from trafficking. Where a court is satisfied that proceeds of drug trafficking arose prior to six years before the conviction, these can, of course, be confiscated.
A further provision of the 1994 Act empowers the High Court to make restraint orders freezing assets, including money that may be liable to realisation if a confiscation order is made at a later stage. The effect of a restraint order is to prohibit any person from dealing with the property to which the order applies. Applications for these orders are made by the DPP. They can be made without the need to give notice to the party against whom an order is sought. In addition, with effect from 2 May 1995, a number of provisions in the 1994 Act require banks and other financial bodies to take certain measures — for example, the identification of customers and reporting of suspicious transactions — which will make it more difficult for drug traffickers to launder their ill-gotten gains.
The House is aware of the level of drug abuse in Mountjoy Prison. It is difficult to make categorical statements about its true extent because drug taking is a covert activity. What cannot be denied is that, in common with the experience in other jurisdictions, drug abuse by prison inmates is a problem of serious proportions. Finding the solution to this problem is far from easy. Considerable ingenuity is employed by offenders inside and outside prison to ensure that supplies to those in custody are maintained.
Prison management strategies must pass the tests of practicality and acceptability in human rights terms. Many such strategies are employed with success. I can inform the House that three specific new options are under active consideration for the management of drug dependent offenders in prison. They are continuance on methadone maintenance for offenders who come into prison while already on a maintenance programme; the creation of a detoxification facility; and the establishment of a secure drug free unit.
In relation to the use of methodone, one must be aware that where it is mixed with even small quantities of other drugs and where it is used in an open environment in prison, it can be extremely dangerous. In fact, it can pose a threat to the lives of prisoners. We also must also bear in mind that to successfully limit drugs in prison it might be necessary to ban all physical contact between prisoners and their visitors, including their children. That is a serious restriction which may have serious implications for prisons. The Minister has taken a number of initiatives in recent months to prevent as far as possible the smuggling of drugs into prison.
This Government is committed to achieving 2 per cent real growth in gross current supply services expenditure in 1996. Therefore, as the House is aware, the Government is reviewing the 1996 budget proposals. This review extends to all Ministers, including the Minister for Justice. In order to ensure a strategic approach to the allocation of available resources, all existing policies and expenditure will be examined with the aim of maximising benefits within the Government's spending target for 1996. In that context the Government found it necessary to defer the Castlerea prison project and the women's prison project at Mountjoy beyond 1996.
The extent to which both the Castlerea and women's prison projects will be deferred will depend on a full assessment of need against the background of an ongoing evaluation of the contribution which might be expected by, for example, making greater use of custody alternatives, by developments in the peace process, etc. It is reasonable for the Government to take stock at this point so as to be satisfied beyond doubt that there are no better ways of achieving results in offender management terms without incurring sizeable capital and ongoing current charges on the Exchequer.
In relation to the women's prison, I want to see proper facilities for women prisoners and I am aware the current facilities are lacking. However, we now have an opportunity to look at alternatives for women prisoners who have not traditionally formed a large part of the prison population.
This Government is committed to policies that will ensure the level of crime in our towns and cities is reduced. An indication of the Government's commitment to tackling crime in all its form is that in excess of £589 million has been allocated to the general Justice area in this year's Estimates.
Parents, teachers, the Churches and voluntary groups all have a role to play in reducing the incidence of crime. While crime cuts across all classes, it can be said to be particularly prevalent among unemployed youth in disadvantaged urban areas. The Government supports and is funding many community projects, such as GRAFT in north Clondalkin, part of my constituency; the KEY project in Killinarden, west Tallaght; in Moyross in Limerick; in the Knocknaheeny-Hollyhill area of Cork city; and more recently the Working to Enhance Blanchardstown project, also in my constituency of Dublin West.
I am also confident that the extensive probation supervision scheme can be extended. Under this scheme offenders are challenged to confront their offending behaviour, examine its causes and consequences not just for themselves but also for the victims of their crimes and to adopt a more constructive lifestyle. The success rate, measured by the numbers who remain out of crime and by the attendance and level of commitment to the programme, is approximately 75 per cent.
I am fully committed to the requisition and renovation of premises for use as probation centres. I am also fully committed to the development of a system by which certain offenders at an appropriate stage of their sentence may be released back into the community under the supervision of the probation and welfare service for the balance of their sentences. The objective is to increase the number of offenders on supervised temporary release.
In summary, there are other ways of dealing with offenders: first, by assessing whether by following a more broadly-based approach to the problem of crime we can reduce the incidence of offending; and second, by dealing more imaginatively, effectively and less expensively with those who do offend. It is right that we look at the available alternatives before we ask the taxpayers to foot the bill for the most obvious, although not necessarily the most effective, solution.
In that respect, the number of people imprisoned annually for fines is a relatively small proportion of the total prison population. I hope the day will come when no one is in jail for fines and there will be alternatives such as attachment of earnings, payment by instalment and other mechanisms by which fines can be paid.
I have one political point crucial to this debate. Senator Ormonde strongly attacked the Government, but I have a question for the leadership of both Fianna Fáil and the Progressive Democrats. I understand the frustration and disappointment felt by people in Castlerea and I say the following not to score a point but to tease out this issue. I listened in the last few months to the most stringent and eloquent attacks by Fianna Fáil and the Progressive Democrats on Government spending. Those parties called for substantial cutbacks in the 1996 Estimates. One of the consequences of those demands, and properly so, is that all Government expenditure is being reviewed.
Except in Wicklow.
In this regard the argument must be connected in a rounded way. If one calls for savage cutbacks in public expenditure, one cannot isolate the areas which ought to be exempt at the expense of others. If one makes the argument to control public expenditure, as their spokespersons and leadership have done on many occasions in recent months, one must also take some of the responsibility for the consequent decision on Castlerea.
The Government is attempting to exercise a degree of fiscal prudence. The deferral of the Castlerea project is obviously a disappointment to local people, but the call for those cutbacks came most strenuously from the leadership of Fianna Fáil.
It is a pity we cannot reply to that.
Senator Fitzgerald can reply to it now.
I support the motion and condemn the Government for the deferral of and withdrawal of funds for the prison in Castlerea. I do not condemn the decision because Castlerea is affected but because we need an extra prison and more cells. Crime is rampant throughout our cities, towns and villages.
I almost laughed when I heard speakers from the other side of the House suggest we could rehabilitate prisoners by putting them to work, cutting briars on the side of the road and opening gullies. I agree, but is that what those speakers would do with the person who attacked a tourist in Galway recently who needed 15 stitches? That was a malicious attempt to maim that lady. Do those Members suggest the sentence the courts should impose for that attack is to send the convicted person to a boreen to cut briars? What about the 75 year old woman in Dublin who was raped, beaten and left? Is that the sentence those speakers recommend for the perpetrator of that crime?
I agree with much of what the Minister said. We should not need prisons and she is right to say they indicate a failure in our society. We have gone soft over the years and have not meted out the proper punishment to those perpetrating these crimes. Some of the people who spoke should know better. Senator Gallagher is involved in the law. If we followed her proposals, no prisons would be needed. I agree the day should come when that will be the case. I also agree with Senator Neville that prisons should not be required. However, terrible crimes are being committed. Whether we like it or not, the people committing these crimes have to be put away.
Senator Enright was right when he said we are going soft. Prisoners can make more demands than those of us who never committed a crime. In prison they can demand a right to silence and they can go to the European Court of Human Rights or the European Court of Justice. Although the authorities know they are guilty they cannot prove it. They may be let off scot-free, back into society to commit crimes again.
We need prisons; in particular we need a prison in Castlerea and we need it soon. We are legislators and we pass many Bills. The Minister of State has been in this House many times. Towards the end of each Bill come the sentences for associated offences. About half of the legislation that passes through this House include sections outlining offences and punishments. If we taking a soft line there is no need to include jail sentences. We can include punishments, such as sending the offender out to cut briars in Dingle for two months or picking stones for a farmer in a meadow. Are we to put this in legislation? It is laughable.
I regret the Government's decision. I do not want to attack the Government for cheap political reasons. It is my honest view this is a mistake. We have to think of the west and the pleas made by the bishops. Senator Mullooly and I agreed with them when the statement was issued asking why the DART extension to Greystones was not cut back. Why was something in Dublin not cut back? A great amount is spent in the city compared to the country.
The people in the country are worse off in the country than the people in the city. We in the country pay for everything, as Senator Neville and others here would know. If we want to go outside at night we have to use our own lights; if we want footpaths we have to put them down ourselves. People in the cities and towns can walk out their doors and they have footpaths and lights provided at the taxpayers' expense. People in rural areas protest that all Governments have not looked after them. This is a typical example.
I thought it was a great decision to build the prison in Castlerea. Some people might say it was being done because the Taoiseach came from that area. However, it was an ideal plan which distributed money in the country and addressed a problem which had to be tackled. I ask the Minister of State to do her best to shorten the deferral of this project. The Minister said the project would be considered for 1996 but she had some doubts about it, in other words, the Government doubts it could happen in 1996. I would say go ahead with it now. The Government should change its mind.
I agreed with the Minister when she said society has failed because we must have prisons, yet we need them. I agree with Senator Neville that many people who have committed minor offences should be given community work sentences. However, with the nature of crime being committed nowadays we have to get hard before we get soft. The punishment must fit the crime.
Senator Mullooly and I do not wish to be political this evening. A genuine case was made by two Senators from Roscommon. Perhaps the Leas-Chathaoirleach may have an opportunity to speak on the subject.
An Leas-Chathaoirleach
The Senator may leave the Leas-Chathaoirleach out of it.
I ask the Minister of State to try to change the Government's mind. I support the motion.
The issue of crime and prisons is broad ranging. There is no doubt it is not a problem that has arisen only in the last five or six months: the increase in crime has been taking place for quite some time. Crime related to drugs has escalated at a great rate across the western world.
As the Minister said, a lot of credit must be given to the Garda and the Army for their excellent record in detecting the importation of drugs. In many cases the offenders are not originally from this jurisdiction. We have to realise there is an international escalation of the drugs problem and every nation will have to face up to it. I congratulate the Garda and the Army for their efforts on this front.
A lot of crime is drug related. Deprivation was the reason given for crime in the past, but it is now drug related. In the next few years major decisions will have to be made with regard to the safety of property and the person. A culture is emerging that crime is all right and that the judicial system has only a limited ability to deal with it. I welcome the fact that the Government will be taking an overall look at offenders and how they pay the penalty.
It is amazing that the taxpayer pays for certain conditions in our prison system and that the offender does not pay anything back to society or to the victim. The offender only pays back the time spent in prison. That is the present system. Is it fair that taxpayers have to pay for such a system? I say it is not. The offenders should repay their debt to society for their offence in some fashion other than being kept in prison indefinitely by the taxpayer. I agree that there are people who have to be locked up for various reasons and cannot be let out because they can pose a physical danger to somebody else. On the other hand, the idea that everybody has to be locked up is not the answer. No society can afford it; nor should it be asked to afford it in the long term. I welcome that particular aspect.
I attended two meetings last week with the action committee from Castlerea, who came up to Dublin and met the Minister of State, Deputy Carey, and the Minister for Justice, Deputy Owen. I do not have to repeat what has already been said here today on the impact, shock and disappointment that this decision has led to in Castlerea and in the outlying areas. There was certainly a welcome for investment by the State in Castlerea. People had already made personal plans to move down there, buy houses, etc. The business people in the area, suppliers, etc. were extremely disappointed. It is in that environment that I, as a politician in the constituency, am most aware of the problem. These things were pointed out by the action committee to both Ministers and especially to the Minister for Justice.
As has been said, the present Minister for Justice was totally committed to this project. The decision to go ahead with this project in Castlerea was taken two years ago. Nobody can deny that the peace initiative has created extra prison places. I cannot number them now, but the Minister did point out that there could be at least 100 extra places because people have been released before their time. That is one aspect of it. I also feel that the action committee are totally justified in expressing their disappointment and concern as regards the lack of further investment in the project. There is not alone the cost of the wall, which was in the region of £1.5 million, but also the aspect of over £3 million from the health board. Again, if we want to be accurate and fair, a lot of that money has been spent for good reasons.
The tendency in health care has been towards smaller institutions and to sending patients back out into the community in private houses or in smaller buildings. That particular pattern was happening across the country, and rightly so. To say that that particular money has been squandered is not true. I listened to the Minister for Justice with the action committee. She outlined the present situation, which she will be reviewing. I support her in what she told the action committee at the meeting the other day.
An Leas-Chathaoirleach
It is now 7.55 p.m. and Senator Honan has indicated that she wishes to speak.
I am prepared to share some of my time with Senator Honan.
An Leas-Chathaoirleach
Is that agreed? Agreed.
I thank Senator Mullooly for sharing his time with me. I welcome the Minister to the House. I missed the beginning of her speech but I got most of it. I accept what the Minister has said: that, in order to achieve a 2 per cent real growth in current supply services expenditure in 1996, the Government is reviewing the 1996 budget. As part of that review, the Minister for Justice had to be included and, in that context, the Government found it necessary to defer the Castlerea prison project and the women's prison project at Mountjoy Prison.
My concern in all of this is that I cannot understand on what basis the decision was made in the first place and then how, after engaging in substantial expenditure, it was decided to defer these proposals indefinitely. We have had many debates in this House on crime and all of us were of the opinion that we need extra prison space, because as things stand at the moment, the prison system only works by releasing convicted prisoners prematurely from prison to make room to remand an accused person in custody. In effect, we have a crazy system where guilty people are released in order to make room for people who are still on remand. There are new facilities provided in Wheat-field Prison and we were expecting this new prison in Castlerea. I do not know on what basis the decision was made initially and I then find it hard to understand how the decision was reversed so quickly after substantial amounts of money had been spent. We need a modern prison to replace Mountjoy Prison. We have a huge number of young people in our prisons who should not be in places like Mountjoy at all. I accept that whatever we do is going to cost money and that is acceptable.
Providing prisons is a costly service — it is estimated that it costs almost £40,000 a year to keep a person in prison. This is a huge amount of money, particularly when we ask, as Senator Belton said, what we get out of it. All we do is keep people out of society for a certain period and then we send them back into society no better than they were when they first went into prison. They get very little education or counselling — few rehabilitative measures are carried out in prison. Many of our prisoners are coming out and going back in again and again. When I was a member of the Council for the Status of Women we visited Mountjoy Prison. There are few women prisoners. Out of the total 2,000 prisoners, only 35 are women. Again, the people in charge there will tell that the same women are coming in again and again and they have experience of children of women they have known now coming in. The prospect is bad if that is going to continue.
We should be looking at how we can keep people out of prison, rehabilitate them, and remove drug addicts from the prisons. A huge percentage of our prison population are drug addicts and I wonder what we are doing about it. We do not even carry out urine and blood tests to see if prison inmates are on drugs. This could be done to prevent them from getting remission of their sentences if they were found to be continuing their habit while in prison.
An Leas-Chathaoirleach
I must ask the Senator to conclude.
I had a lot to say but I obviously do not have the time — I am sorry about that. I accept that there must be some cutbacks. It is a question of prioritising and using the large sums of money that we spend on our prisons in the best possible way to ensure that we do not have people going back in again. I also want to question the basis on which the decisions to build at Castlerea and then abandon it were taken.
When I rose to propose the motion, I said that I did not intend to engage in any political point scoring and I did not. I endeavoured to put forward all the arguments as to why I felt that the Castlerea prison project should proceed. It is now obvious from what the Minister said in her contribution that this project has been deferred indefinitely and, more than likely, has been abandoned permanently. If it is the case that the Government have decided to abandon the project completely, then the people of Castlerea should be told that that is the situation. As the Leas-Chathaoirleach knows, this is an enormous blow to Castlerea and the west of Ireland. The people of Castlerea and that region will not take this decision lying down.
Today, the Shell Oil Company, one of the biggest multinationals in the world, understands the meaning of people power. I assure the Government that if this decision is not reversed, it will also understand the meaning of people power. I have to ask why the people of Castlerea, County Roscommon, and the west of Ireland should have to engage in protests, marches, public meetings, organising petitions, rallies and so on when the only sensible decision is to proceed with the provision of this prison. The campaign which is being planned in support of this project will pull no punches. I have never seen such anger and bitter disappointment as there is in the Castlerea area and the west of Ireland because of this decision.
People made investments on the basis of this project going ahead. Prison officers and their families moved into the area and invested in property. This time last year the town of Castlerea had a psychiatric hospital, two hotels and the promise of a prison. Today, 12 months later, Castlerea has no psychiatric hospital, one hotel, because the Western Health Board has acquired the other hotel, and no prison. It has a wall which cost almost £2 million of public money and is being described as the largest handball alley in the world. Where is the commitment of this Government to the development of the west of Ireland? I cannot understand that the Government would not have considered the impact this decision would have, not only on the economy of the west but on morale generally in that region.
Senator Fitzgerald said he regretted that the Leas-Chathaoirleach was not in a position to put on record his views on this matter. I would like to put on record the views of some of the——
An Leas-Chathaoirleach
The Chair should not be dragged into this debate.
——elected members of the largest Government party in County Roscommon.
An Leas-Chathaoirleach
I must remind the Senator that his time is up.
It is regrettable that my time is up. On page nine of the Roscommon Herald of Friday, 16 June, the interesting views of a number of elected members of the Government party are set out in detail in an article dealing with the views and reactions of people in County Roscommon to the decision not to proceed with this project. I accept your ruling, Sir, that I do not have time to put them on the record of the House this evening, but I intend to do so at some time in the future.
An Leas-Chathaoirleach
I have no doubt that you will, Senator.
Amendment put.
The Seanad divided: Tá, 21; Níl, 18.
Tá
- Belton, Louis J.
- Burke, Paddy.
- Calnan, Michael.
- Cashin, Bill.
- Cotter, Bill.
- Doyle, Joe.
- Enright, Thomas W.
- Farrelly, John V.
- Gallagher, Ann.
- Henry, Mary.
- Howard, Michael.
- McDonagh, Jarlath.
- Maloney, Sean.
- Manning, Maurice.
- Neville, Daniel.
- O'Sullivan, Jan.
- Reynolds, Gerry.
- Ross, Shane P.N.
- Sherlock, Joe.
- Taylor-Quinn, Madeleine.
- Townsend, Jim.
Níl
- Byrne, Seán.
- Fahey, Frank.
- Farrell, Willie.
- Finneran, Michael.
- Fitzgerald, Tom.
- Honan, Cathy.
- Kelleher, Billy.
- Kiely, Dan.
- Kiely, Rory.
- Lanigan, Mick.
- Lydon, Don.
- McGowan, Paddy.
- Mooney, Paschal.
- Mulcahy, Michael.
- Mullooly, Brian.
- O'Brien, Francis.
- Ormonde, Ann.
- Wright, G.V.
Tellers: Tá, Senators Burke and Gallagher; Níl, Senators Mullooly and Fitzgerald.
Amendment declared carried.
Motion, as amended, put and declared carried.
An Leas-Chathaoirleach
When is it proposed to sit again?
Tomorrow at 10.30 a.m.
The Seanad adjourned at 8.20 p.m. until 10.30 a.m. on Thursday, 22 June 1995.