Spokespersons have twelve minutes, all other Senators have six minutes and the statements will conclude at 3 p.m.
Transport for Disabled People: Statements.
The opening statement for the Government side will be made by Senator Doyle. This is an historic debate organised at the request of Members from all parties, who are concerned by the case put to them. On behalf of the House, I welcome the visitors who have come here today, most of whom are in the ante-chamber and some of whom will be in the Chamber. It is a tribute to them that Members of all parties asked for this debate and asked that it be extended.
Acting Chairman
I too welcome to the people who are here today.
Over 100,000 Dubliners have a disability. One in four families have been affected by disability and experience disadvantage and discrimination as a result. The number of Dubliners with disabilities is growing as the population grows older. People with disabilities experience, on a daily basis, man-made handicapping features in the environment, despite being entitled to enjoy the same choice of activity and freedom of access as any other person. Additional barriers, mainly physical, force people with disabilities to resort to segregated arrangements when all they want to do is to fully participate in life, as is their right.
The barrier we are discussing is the absence of adequate access to public transport in Dublin for people with disabilities or for anyone who experiences mobility difficulties. To them, Dublin buses are inaccessible and the DART service is unsatisfactory because the majority of stations are inaccessible. The DART system was constructed in the early 1980s and the stations were reconstructed then without being made accessible to people with disabilities. The wheelchair accessible public hire vehicles licences for taxis have gone some of the way to meet disabled people's transport requirements. However, exorbitant travel costs are a deterrent to full participation by disabled people in Irish social, economic and cultural life.
On a point of order, will there be a Minister or Minister of State present in the Chamber for this debate?
Acting Chairman
To the best of my knowledge, there will not.
I do not wish to be awkward on this matter, but I find that rather extraordinary.
Acting Chairman
The Senator's original point was a point of order. He is now wandering into an area that has nothing to do with the point of order.
InCare states in its submission that transport makes the difference between opportunity and exclusion. Transport makes it possible for people to socialise, take up employment and to actively contribute to society. Without affordable accessible transport, people with disabilities are like prisoners in their own homes. It is every person's right to participate in society. Exclusion due to the absence of affordable accessible public transport amounts to a breach of human rights. The Centre for Independent Living was established at Carmichael House in 1992 by people with disabilities, in order to fight for their human rights. It is a consumer led organisation which aims to enable all disabled people to achieve self-determination, independent living and control of their own lives.
People with disabilities recently spent over 55 hours outside Leinster House protesting against the failure of the Government to cater for them in mainstream public transport. I thank the Leader and all the Members of the House who have organised this debate today.
The attendance of disabled people in the House is a great credit to everybody. Their policy favours full inclusion, and their goal is to make mainstream public transport accessible to disabled people. They do not want to be provided with a special or segregated transport service. They are not demanding that Dublin Bus replace their entire fleet overnight with accessible buses. They are calling for a change in its fleet replacement policy. An old bus should be replaced with a bus accessible to disabled people. They fully accept that the replacement of Dublin Bus rolling stock with accessible buses will take time.
To overcome the short term problem, the Centre for Independent Living has developed Vantastic, a transport initiative which will be owned and controlled by people with disabilities. It envisages Vantastic as a co-operative which will provide an accessible door to door transport service, initially for people with disabilities and then for anyone who experiences mobility difficulties. The Vantastic concept will consist of twenty accessible buses providing a door to door service from 8 a.m. to 2 a.m., seven days a week, and giving employment to 68 people, six of whom will be people with significant disabilities.
The Centre for Independent Living has come up with a novel idea to finance the cost of Vantastic. It points out that each year the Government and the Department of Social Welfare spend tens of millions of pounds on free travel passes for the elderly and disabled to encourage the elderly and disabled to remain active in the community. This year £29.5 million will be spent on such passes for 465,000 people. However, a significant proportion of these people do not benefit from this scheme because they cannot get on to public buses and avail of a scheme that was designed for them. People with disabilities would prefer to pay for a bus they can get on to than be given a free travel pass for a bus that is inaccessible. The purpose of Vantastic is to enable people with disabilities to become active in the community. The transfer of just 7 per cent — £1.8 million — of the £29.5 million spent on free travel passes would be sufficient to fund Vantastic.
Dublin Bus has recently made a token effort to address the problem of inaccessible public transport with the introduction of its OmniLink buses. However, these were introduced without any consultation with its customers, mainly people with disabilities, and only operate on a limited route in the city centre, failing to accommodate the majority of people who are still faced with the problem of how to get into the city centre.
If we are serious about making public transport accessible to those with disabilities it will be necessary for Dublin Bus to purchase low floor buses. I understand that in Belfast Ulster Bus recently announced its decision to purchase 60 low floor accessible buses locally and its chairman stated that not only will these buses transform public transport for disabled people, but the elderly and mothers with buggies will also benefit from the low no-step-up fleet of accessible buses. This will mean faster boarding which will result in a quicker service for all passengers.
The document "Towards a Full Citizenship For All" which was submitted to the Dáil and Seanad by the justice commission of the Conference of Religious of Ireland states:
Full citizenship is not simply about political rights such as the right to vote, to equality before the law, to possession of a passport. It is also about social rights such as the right to adequate income, to meaningful work, to participate in society.
Those with disabilities are being denied full citizenship because they are being excluded from participation in society by the non provision of affordable, accessible public transport. I hope they will never again have to protest outside Dáil Éireann in order to obtain that basic civil right.
I welcome those from the Centre for Independent Living and their carers. My party colleague in the other House, Deputy Geoghegan-Quinn, has been in touch with this group and has made recent representations on its behalf. My colleagues in this House and I met them when they protested at the gate to Leinster House and again this morning. We all support their very genuine case. I find it somewhat discourteous that there is no Minister here on this occasion which merits such a presence. However, we will continue with the debate and I hope that our deliberations will be brought to the attention of the Minister by the Leader of the House. It is opportune that the Seanad should be discussing today the plight of those with disabilities as our athletes returned from the Special Olympics yesterday after our most successful performance yet. I salute and congratulate them.
While today we are dealing to a large degree with the lack of accessibility for the disabled to Dublin Bus, this is only the tip of the iceberg. What is disability? The definition should apply to a person with a physical or mental impairment which has substantial and long term adverse effects on his or her ability to carry out normal day to day activities. A long term impairment should be defined as one that has lasted, or can reasonably be expected to last, at least 12 months. Where an impairment ceases to have a substantial adverse effect on a person's ability to carry out normal day to day activities it should be treated as continuing to have that effect if that effect is likely to recur.
An impairment should be taken to affect normal day to day activities only if it affects mobility; manual dexterity; physical co-ordination; continence; ability to lift, carry or move everyday objects; speech, hearing or eyesight; memory or ability to learn or understand; or perception of the risk of physical danger. A mental impairment should include a mental illness or disorder if it is a clinically recognised condition. People with severe disfigurement should not be required to satisfy the substantial effect provision but the condition should be required to be long term. The definition should also apply to those whose disability is regulated by medication or by the use of a special aid. Those with progressive conditions, for example, cancer, multiple sclerosis or muscular dystrophy, should be covered by the definition when the condition would be expected in the future to have a substantial effect on the person's ability to carry out normal day to day activities.
Those definitions should be enshrined in law and I call on the Minister and the Government to bring before the House, as a matter of urgency, a disability anti-discrimination Bill. The Bill should provide for a statutory right of non discrimination in employment and access to goods and services. It should also provide for the creation of a national disability council which would have the power to make regulations to include or exclude specific conditions or the day to day activities not specified in the primary legislation.
The Bill should have wide ranging anti-discrimination measures which would provide for a statutory right of non discrimination against disabled people in the field of employment, including a duty on employers to make a reasonable adjustment to working conditions and the working environment to overcome the practical effects of a disability; a statutory right of access to goods and services, including the removal of barriers and the provision of aids, which is reasonable and readily achievable; and the elimination of any potential discrimination in financial services.
A national disability council could advise the Government on issues and measures relating to the elimination of discrimination and the strengthening of policy and programme guidance for local authorities. Government Departments, in particular the Department of Transport, Energy and Communications, and commercial State-sponsored bodies should ensure that new buses are of low floor construction and extend the new right of access to cover parts of the transport infrastructure such as railways and bus stations. There should be new access standards for schools and consultation on imaginative ways to encourage schools and school transport providers to cater for disabled pupils and to bring forward proposals for a scheme to identify cost effective solutions for increased accessibility.
Where access is wrongly denied, a disabled person should be able to take civil proceedings to recover damages for any financial loss suffered as well as injuries to feelings. Attitudes must change as we need a major swing towards the positive. Until now, the tendency has been to dwell on what the disabled cannot do rather than what they can do. I reject the notion that the disabled should be given something as a concession as it must all be part of a human rights issue. Independence is the most important issue for the disabled. Education will enable people to achieve a measure of independence but only good legislation will ensure it.
Acting Chairman
You raised a point of order and the Leader wishes to respond to it.
I wish to clarify a point raised by Senator Finneran who referred to the discourtesy of there not being a Minister present. The Minister was not invited to the House. The Committee on Procedure and Privileges decided some time ago that statements could be taken in the House without a Minister being present. With the agreement of that committee, a full record and a video of the debate will be sent to the Minister. The debate is an all party one and I would not like it to be marred by an issue like this.
I accept what the Leader has said. I was not aware of the situation. If it had been brought to my attention before the debate started, I would not have raised this. If we had known of the decision of the Committee on Procedure and Privileges, we may have questioned it before today.
This was a general decision. Is the Minister aware these statements are being taken?
Acting Chairman
We do not want a debate on this. It is a matter for the Committee on Procedure and Privileges and it has been dealt with.
I accept what the Leader has said but are decisions now being taken by the Committee on Procedure and Privileges which are not being communicated to Members so that there is no discussion on the impact and consequences of those decisions?
Acting Chairman
That is not a point of order but is a matter for the committee.
I will clarify the point. This decision was taken some years ago as part of a general package of Seanad reforms to give flexibility to the House when it wants to have debates and discussions on issues. We express our views and they are put on the record. The people on whose behalf we are speaking are assured there is a voice on their behalf. I would like the matter to rest there.
Acting Chairman
This is a matter not for this debate but for the Committee on Procedure and Privileges. This debate is important.
I support the statements which have been made on both sides on this issue. It is the right of everybody to have access to public transport and public buildings and the State should recognise this. It is wrong that in 1995 this is not the case with Dublin Bus and in other areas.
I compliment the Centre for Independent Living for bringing this to our attention. Until last year, when it made its positive protest, I was unaware of the difficulties concerning Dublin Bus. It is a reflection on many of us that such issues have to be brought to our attention. Since then I have been aware of the difficulties of the physically disabled and I compliment the centre for its work and campaign on their behalf. It is a disgrace that organisations like Dublin Bus are inaccessible to disabled people and the policy should be changed. The centre also brings to our attention that the DART service is unsatisfactory and work should also be done in this area. The Minister for Transport, Energy and Communications should impress on these organisations, of whom he is the sole shareholder, the need to change policy on this issue and the urgency with which this should be done.
Public travel is important for everybody, especially for the disabled, not all of whom have private transport. It is important for all areas of their lives. A proportionately larger number of disabled people are unemployed and this is unsatisfactory. Lack of proper public access affects people's employment opportunities as well as their social and family lives. They have difficulty visiting sisters, brothers, uncles and aunts. Simple things we take for granted when using public transport are not available to them. They are excluded from certain aspects of society because they are not able to use public transport.
In addition to the issue of public transport, I am also concerned about the recognition by the State of the general needs of the disabled, particularly the physically disabled. A reply to a parliamentary question in the Dáil a year or 18 months ago showed that there are approximately 45,000 physically disabled and 25,000 mentally disabled people in Ireland. The mentally disabled do not receive adequate resources from the State to ensure their rights are preserved. However, relatively speaking, they do better than the physically disabled, who are not catered for fairly or reasonably.
I have suggested to many organisations representing the physically disabled that one of the reasons for this is that the mentally disabled have a coordinated organisation which does excellent work in lobbying very successfully on their behalf, although not as successfully as we would like. The physically disabled do not have the same coordinated representation and influence. The Centre for Independent Living has made a bigger impact on politicians than any other organisation for the physically disabled over the years. Many organisations do excellent work and I have advised and worked with several of them. I always impress on them the need to form a united lobby to assist the physically disabled.
The recommendations of the Centre for Independent Living are relevant and I support them. It has recommended that the Minister should instruct CIE to change its fleet replacement policy so that all new rolling stock — buses, trains and coaches — is fully accessible; that regulations should be introduced which stipulate that licences for new rolling stock are conditional on that stock being fully accessible; that the term "fully accessible" be defined by the user and not by the company; that CIE consult in the fullest possible sense people with disabilities on the matter of which accessible rolling stock to introduce; that disabled people be more fully involved in the transport decisions which affect them; that the transition from inaccessible to accessible public transport occur within an agreed time scale; that funding is provided for Vantastic, an interim solution to the transport problem; that the Department of Social Welfare, in conjunction with CIE, should reassess its free travel policy from the perspective of the intended user — to many intended users a free travel pass is of no use; that the Department and CIE agree to transfer a percentage of the funds for free travel passes to a service which would genuinely help to achieve the objectives of the free travel scheme, that is to encourage the elderly and disabled to remain active in the community; and that existing and future funding, which reinforces the disabled person's dependency, should be ceased. Rather than spending European funds on propping up systems and structures which inevitably lead to marginalisation, which we seek to avoid, it is preferable that this funding should be stopped completely and redirected to projects and enterprises managed and controlled by people with disabilities. I have put these recommendations on the record for the Minister.
I compliment InCare for putting so much pressure on us that we have had to have this debate. Over the past few months I met many disabled people outside Leinster House who try to travel around Dublin. This topic is most important and it is depressing to look at the figures InCare has produced on transport for people with disabilities in other European capitals and to see the extent to which we are shamed because we spend nothing on promoting the increased use of public transport in this city by people with disabilities, particulary those in wheelchairs.
I strongly support what InCare is trying to do. It points out that it is not only those who are currently unable to get on buses who would be facilitated by better provision of lower entry buses. When I was getting on the bus at Leeson Street yesterday, I had to help an elderly woman to get over the first step of the bus; getting her over the second step also required assistance. This elderly woman was trying to go about her normal business and this poses a grave inconvenience and difficulty for all those who are trying to get around the city on public transport.
The fact it pointed out that the low access buses are being assembled locally is also important. Therefore, we would be promoting industry and employment on an all island basis, which is one of the more attractive reasons for getting its recommendations implemented urgently. There are extremely good social reasons for urging better access to buses for people in wheelchairs or those with other mobility difficulties. However, and this was mentioned by many Senators, while disabled people have been given bus passes, what is the use of having them if they cannot get on the buses?
We promote people to get involved in second and third level education. Great efforts have been made in universities, technical colleges and the Dublin Institute of Technology to try to improve access for the disabled so that those with a disability, and there are many of them, who need better access to public buildings can become involved in third level education. I am extremely pleased that one of these young women currently studying in Trinity College — I will not mention her name or I will be accused of promoting her too much — got a second class honours degree in her examinations recently and it is good to see her here today. She is enthusiastic about continuing her involvement within the university. However, as she pointed out to me, getting in and out of the college is a nightmare task for her. When one thinks of the effort she made in attaining entrance to the university and successfully continuing her studies there, we should ensure it is made as accessible as possible.
As one would expect, I have also looked at this matter from the health point of view. Of course, many people with disabilities, particularly those who are wheelchair bound, have to avail of the health services more frequently than many other members of our population.
It has been suggested that providing taxis for disabled people is the solution to this problem and would be a cheaper proposition. When Brendan Corish was Minster for Health, he introduced the most humanitarian policy of letting people who were literally imprisoned in their own homes to avail of a taxi to go to hospital. We treated people who had not seen doctors or been able to get to clinics for years. It was unbelievable. The forecourt of Sir Patrick Dun's Hospital was packed with taxis. However, the scheme had to be abandoned within months because its cost was astronomical. Before anyone again suggests such a concession, they should look at what happened in 1968 and the enormous expenditure incurred by the Department of Health in ferrying people to hospitals by taxis.
I have also seen a number of ambulances drawing up at hospital doors bringing people who were not able to get to hospital on public transport. They are perfectly well able to tell bus conductors where they want to go and to organise their travelling arrangements but because they cannot get on any form of public transport, extraordinarily expensive arrangements have to be made, such as sending our Eastern Health Board ambulances to adjacent houses, to bring them in. It is not only the costs but the logistics that are incredible. These people then have to hang around hospital outpatients' waiting rooms for a considerable time before an ambulance can come back to ferry them home, which may be a distance of as little as half a mile. It would be much easier if they had access to a bus to get there.
I am delighted this issue came up today. In the past, I have written and spoken about the lack of access for people in wheelchairs to the DART, taxis and trains. The situation regarding the DART should also be covered because many of the buses that need to be converted to lower access are feeder buses to the DART. Some of the doors in the DART are fairly accessible for non-electrically operated wheelchairs but there is grave difficulty for those using electrically operated wheelchairs when they get inside. There is a metal bar in the DART which makes it almost impossible for people to turn around to get out. Not all stations have good access for people in wheelchairs. One DART station I have written about is Sandymount, which is near the Rehabilitation Institute training centre. It seems essential that this station, above all others, should have good access so that disabled people can get in and out of it easily.
I also wrote to the Minister about taxis. It is amazing the information one can get when going abroad. I attended a meeting about AIDS with Senator Norris and Mary Banotti MEP in Barcelona. When we were there, I noticed that one of the delegates from the House of Lords was a wheelchair bound woman. I was fascinated to see that there are a considerable number of taxis in Barcelona that have two slips going under the taxi which make them more convenient for disabled people, which would be more convenient than the difficulties we experience in getting disabled people in and out of taxis in this country. I hope this sort of facility could be promoted in Dublin and I have written to the Minister about it.
I would like to mention the situation with regard to trains. I do not know if Members travel by train — I am sure many do — but it is appalling to see the way in which disabled people are shunted into a corner and left there. There are little facilities in our trains for them to go to the lavatory or the dining car. When I travelled to Cork on the train, I witnessed the terrible difficulties experienced by a man who was able to get out of his wheelchair, admittedly with great difficulty, in getting to the lavatory and the dining car to get something to eat. We have to try to improve the facilities, although I know some carriages are better than others and I was travelling on elderly rolling stock at the time. If Brian Crowley had not been appointed to this House, would we have seen such an improvement in the facilities for the disabled within it? It is incredible what it takes to get action in these areas.
Further access to other public places is needed. Many disabled people find it difficult to get access to post offices. When one remembers the need of people with a disability to get into places where they have to claim benefit, these are important topics which we can link with their tremendous effort in making us look seriously at the situation regarding Dublin Bus. It would also be a great help to me if I did not have to make such a high jump to get on the buses.
I welcome this debate regarding the position of the disabled. There is currently no accessible public transport for people with disabilities. In all walks of life, people with disabilities experience problems from the time they get up in the morning to when they go to bed at night, if it only means dressing themselves, eating at the kitchen table, getting out or coming into their houses, trying to get into their cars or on a bus or doing their shopping. One finds much of the time that footpaths, public buildings and supermarkets do not have access for people with disabilities.
The document which the Department of Health recently published, Shaping A Healthier Future, asked if there were areas where we could improve the way of life not only for people with physical disabilities, but also those with psychiatric disabilities. What can we, as politicians, do to help these people? European policy advocates full inclusion of people with disabilities. This country is receiving funding for the transport services and CIE is getting a subvention from the Government and disability funding, yet it is making no effort to improve the way of life for disabled people who use Irish transport.
I worked in the psychiatric services for many years and I know how hard we had to fight to get funding and to get people to accept psychiatric patients in the community. Those with physical disabilities also experienced the same problem. We must educate the public to accept that people with disabilities must be given special consideration. The attitude of some people when we tried to move those in the psychiatric services into the community was unbelievable. They did not want these people living beside them. We must educate society from an early stage so that it realises it has a duty towards people with psychiatric and physical disabilities. We are sometimes referred to as a caring society. Many problems start early in life and if proper education was available, the public might show more support.
Two weeks ago I attended the British championship of the Disabled Fly Fisheries Association in Bundoran. I was amazed at the courage of the people who attended because they had all types of disabilities, including those who were paralysed on one side and had lost legs and arms. These people strive to get on with their daily lives. They came to the championship in wheelchairs and they were hoisted on to boats so that they could fish. It gave them an opportunity to lead as normal a life as possible. They were not looking for favours from anybody; they were looking for fair play, just like any group in society.
It was wrong that people with disabilities had to sit outside Dáil Éireann for three days to try to get their message across. They have a contribution to make to society and we in the Houses of the Oireachtas should do all we can to help them.
When I shop in a supermarket or visit the district hospital, as I do on a regular basis, I notice that disabled parking spaces have been taken by people who do not need them and do not care. I have major concerns about the attitude of the public in this regard. Parking places are specifically left for people with disablements, yet other people would drive a horse and cart into them. This is unfair to those who need to use them.
I read recently that Ulsterbus in County Derry has purchased 60 low floor accessible buses in order to make life as easy as possible for those less agile. The low floor buses have a front door step which is no higher than 350 millimetres above the ground and a slide out ramp which bridges the gap between the kerb and the step. These are important considerations which bus companies must take into account. CIE and other bus companies are reluctant to do something about this situation. Excuses are offered in the South, but bus companies in Northern Ireland have taken the initial step. These coaches are made in Ballymena and Belfast, therefore I cannot understand why Dublin Bus does not purchase a number of them. It is failing in its duty to the public by not doing so. These buses are also suitable for elderly people and mothers with prams. If one watches a mother trying to manoeuvre a buggy along the road and up on a footpath, one can understand the problems which disabled people face.
Accessible public transport would facilitate a better way of life for people with disabilities because they would not have to pay for taxis. Taxis are not suitable because it is difficult to get in and out of them. It would be cheaper if public transport was available for disabled people.
It costs approximately £2.25 billion to run the Department of Health each year. That is a lot of money and there is pressure to see that it is spent correctly. Disabled people are only asking for approximately £1.8 million. They have set up a programme called "Vantastic" which will allow them to have their own independent service. Some £1.8 million is a small amount of money when one compares it to £2.25 billion and when one considers the benefits which would accrue. I urge the Minister to accept this request for the benefit of these people.
Recently disabled people met the Minister for Equality and Law Reform, Deputy Taylor, in Letterkenny. Some of my friends who were at that meeting are outside today. They told the Minister in no uncertain terms what they wanted. These people have been marginalised, but they have a lot to gain through accessible public transport. We, as Oireachtas Members, must ensure that something is done to allow them to live life as independently as possible.
I welcome the delegation from the Centre for Independent Living who travelled here at great inconvenience and who are in the ante-room because the Public Gallery is inaccessible to wheelchair users. That says a lot about this House.
The Leader has stated that the attendance of a Minister is not required when a debate is agreed by all parties. I accept that, but this is a special debate. This issue requires a change in ministerial policy and a statement by the Minister outlining his attitude towards the problem which has been brought to our attention by members of the Centre for Independent Living. In response to a Dáil question, the Minister said that fleet replacement was an internal matter for CIE and had nothing to do with him. That is a deplorable attitude and it goes against the Government's stated commitment to equality for people with disabilities. It is not my desire or the desire of the people in the ante-room that this should be a slanging-match, but they feel that the Minister should respond to the points made. I reiterate the need for the Minister to be present.
On a point of order, the Minister is not here because I did not invite him. It is my fault; it has nothing to do with the Minister. The Minister is not showing discourtesy to this House.
It has nothing to do with the Leader.
It was a matter of judgment on my part. The Minister is not showing discourtesy to this House.
I did not say that.
I would hate such an important debate to lose its tone.
I did not mean any discourtesy to the people in the ante-room. I only said it would be better if the Minister could respond to the points raised.
I may not make my points as well as those which were made to me by the people in the ante-room, but I will do my best and I will refer to their briefing document when it is helpful to do so.
It is obvious that participation depends on access and when people do not have access to education or employment, they are discriminated against. To quote the InCare document, which was written by the people affected, "Without affordable, accessible transport, we, people with disabilities, are like prisoners in our own homes". This point needs to be made again and again.
The thrust of my contribution will relate to public transport. It should be inclusive and that is the point made by the Centre for Independent Living Limited. They are reasonable people and accept it is not possible to replace the entire bus fleet immediately but they ask for a change in policy so that where there is a need to replace buses, they are replaced with accessible vehicles.
InCare says that huge amounts of taxpayers' money are used to provide the public transport system. People from InCare, some of whom are in the ante-chamber, are among those contributing revenue. A sum of £40 million is spent by the Department of Education on school transport and £5.8 million of that is specifically earmarked to cater for those with disabilities. Yet there are no facilities for disabled people to enable them to use the public transport system. Taxpayers are not getting value for money and money earmarked for a specific purpose is not being used to that end.
A sum of £30 million is provided for the free travel scheme. Again, this money is aimed at specific groups many of whom cannot avail of public transport. Of those who use the free travel scheme, 304,000 are over 66 years of age. They may have a problem with ordinary access to public transport and 78.6 per cent of those entitled to free travel have difficulty accessing public transport.
According to InCare, 40 per cent of commuters have problems with access to public transport. I was probably one when my two children were young; I carried one in a sling and the other in a buggy. I thought that was difficult but it was pointed out forcefully by a member of InCare that at least it was only temporary. The position for disabled people is that the difficulties they encounter will not ease unless transport policy is changed and they will face these problems for the rest of their lives.
We can speak of the physical difficulty in getting on and off buses and we can mention statistics and costs. I had the advantage of being given a copy of a video of a disabled person accessing DART and Dublin Bus services. We could have dispensed with the three hour debate and simply watched the video because it exemplifies the problem. Seeing somebody crawling up steps dragging a wheelchair behind them speaks volumes. It is a dreadful way to treat a human being. If we could concentrate our minds and those of the decision makers on that video, we need not bother with this debate.
InCare drew attention to the fact that £500,000 of EU money earmarked for the disabled was used by Dublin Bus for an Omni-link service, which runs only within the city limits. If disabled people could access that service, they would not need a separate bus service. If they could get into town to use it, they would have no problems.
There is need for low-floor buses and that is the thrust of InCare's argument. They are being reasonable and ask, in the meantime, that the Government supports the "Vantastic" service, which they are providing.
I asked InCare if they wanted a segregated public transport service and they do not. They are reasonable, they do not expect the public transport system to change overnight and they realise that even if the money was available it would take five to six years so they need a stopgap. They are not looking for additional finance. I would be the first to say that we cannot keep screaming for money. It was not available when we were in Government and it is not available now. We can transfer funds within existing resources. InCare says £1.8 million would set up the "Vantastic" service the first year and it would cost around £1.4 million per annum thereafter; 7 per cent of the free travel pass grant would fund it so we are not looking for additional taxation or money from areas where it does not exist.
Last week, the Minister for Social Welfare was interviewed on the radio and he was asked to address the problems of our greying population. By 2006 and beyond, we face the problem of a large aged population. The change in public transport, which is being forced on us by the disabled, will be needed by the older population in future years.
The public transport system is appalling in terms of the disabled but they wish to express their thanks to the CIE workers who do their best to accommodate the disabled in spite of their lack of training in assisting people with disabilities. That kind of training could be given by people with disabilities.
InCare wants the Minister for Transport, Energy and Communications to give a commitment that he will ensure that the public transport system in Dublin will be accessible to people with disabilities within a specific timescale. The key element to this is that he use his power as sole shareholder in the CIE group to require that the company's fleet replacement programme involve purchasing only accessible rolling stock. InCare also wants the Minister to provide an interim solution by supporting its "Vantastic" scheme.
I have not done InCare justice. This is not a question of a transport or health problem, it is a question of equality. As long as we continue the present public transport system, we discriminate against those who require our assistance, with obstacles being placed in their way.
I welcome the members of the Centre for Independent Living Limited who are in the ante-chamber.
I agree with Senator McGennis that this is an equality issue. Like other Members I have spoken many times of equality in terms of gender. We also have a problem in relation to equality for disabled people in society.
Mr. Justice Fergus Flood, chairperson of the Commission on the Status of People with Disabilities, highlighted in his 1994 report the depths of isolation and exclusion of disabled people because they are denied access to public transport. The single issue of transport is a major obstacle in giving people with disabilities greater equality.
In reply to a recent parliamentary question tabled by a member of my party, the Minister for Transport, Energy and Communications said Bus Éireann had no immediate plans to introduce wheelchair accessible buses on its services. Frankly, I was amazed at this rejection by the Government of basic public transport for people confined to wheelchairs. I do not think any Member supports the contention of the Minister that it is outside his remit. The Minister for Transport, Energy and Communications, Deputy Lowry, is the sole shareholder in Dublin Bus and the regulator for the transport industry. He must be in a position to direct Dublin Bus to take heed of what he wants, so he should direct it immediately to introduce what is requested by the Centre for Independent Living.
There is no adequate accessible public transport for people with disabilities or for anyone who experiences mobility difficulty. As many Members said, transport is the difference between opportunity and exclusion. All of us who do not experience disability take for granted our ability to travel, because our lives are not affected. As Senator McGennis said, the fact that representatives from the Centre for Independent Living cannot come into the Chamber is an indication of the difficulties experienced by people throughout the country. When the former Senator Crowley became a Member, changes were made to the buildings but the only reason they were made was to help him. The changes were welcome but we were not aware of the difficulties experienced by people in wheelchairs until a disabled person became a Member.
Accessible transport makes it possible for people to move around, take up employment and actively contribute to society. It enables people to socialise and is an important factor in disabled people's lives. There is a responsibility on the Minister to examine fleet replacement in Dublin Bus and to see what can be done in other public transport services throughout the country, because this problem is not specific to Dublin. In the capital people have access to taxis which are specially equipped to take wheelchairs. However in remote and rural areas the disabled have extreme difficulties getting around and, therefore, the problem is nationwide.
The Centre for Independent Living has lobbied us on its proposal to the Minister. That scheme would deal with Dublin in the short term and could then be expanded to other towns and cities. The centre has been reasonable in that it feels it would be expensive to replace buses overnight. It has demanded that when an existing bus is in need of replacement it should be replaced with an accessible bus. Deputy Lowry, as the relevant Minister and the sole shareholder in Dublin Bus and Irish Rail, is in a position to achieve what he wants.
EU social policy advocates full inclusion of people with disability. The transport system is receiving funds from the EU which should be spent in accordance with this policy. The absence of accessible transport is evidence that European money is being spent to reinforce exclusion of people with disabilities. Dublin Bus and Irish Rail are guilty of anti-social practices. This money should be spent on that for which it was allocated and the EU would not condone this practice.
Legislation has been passed in other countries which requires the operators of bus fleets to replace them every six years. Vehicles are available which would be fully accessible to wheelchairs at the point of manufacture and it is time we passed similar legislation here.
In its briefing document the Centre for Independent Living stated that Dublin is the only European capital which showed no willingness or intention to provide an accessible public transport system, despite the massive investment it receives from the EU. This is disgraceful and we should not accept it. It is shameful that we have not been more vigilant in this regard and that members of the Centre for Independent Living have had to place a picket on the Oireachtas to demand what they are guaranteed under the EU Convention and our Constitution, which guarantees equality to all citizens. This equality should be provided to them by our politicians and Government.
Most of the points I intended to make have been made by other Senators. The Centre for Independent Living has been extremely reasonable; it has shown the Minister where to find the money to implement its wishes, has outlined what can be done in the short term and what it hopes will be done in the long term. The centre should expect no less than a reasonable response from Members and from the Minister who has the power to bring about change.
During the 55 hours spent outside these gates by representatives of the Centre for Independent Living, I had the opportunity to discuss with them a number of issues of concern which can be dealt with speedily if the Government has the will. The centre's campaign is a symptom of the overall lack of support, resources and facilities for people with impairments and disabilities. This will have to be fundamentally tackled by Government at national level but specific areas are in urgent need of attention and if the will exists Ministers can deal with them quickly.
There is no justification for CIE introducing a fleet of buses which are not adequate to deal with the problem of access. It is beyond my comprehension why the company purchased them. During the centre's picket the Omni-Link service passed the gates every 20 minutes; it was empty. One of the demands made by the centre is that this type of inadequate service should be terminated until it is adequate to deal with the problem of access.
The Minister for Transport, Energy and Communications should intervene with a view to resolving this problem, or at least set out a timeframe in which access can be given to people who do not have it at present. Buses are travelling through this city which are not catering for people who could avail of them if they had access. The Minister should indicate this afternoon that he is prepared to intervene. He is intervening in CIE in other respects, as can be seen in the newspapers in recent days but I do not wish to distract from this debate.
This House has been snubbed, for which no blame attaches to the Leader. The Minister responsible has an obligation to the House precisely to set out the policies in these areas. He should at least send a policy statement if he is not prepared to come here. He knows this debate is taking place and should not be bound by——
Senator Manning has already explained why the Minister is not here.
That does not justify the Minister remaining outside this House during the debate. It is a snub to this House and to the people who have come to hear what the Minister and the Government have to say.
Acting Chairman
Protocol demands that the Leader must ask the Minister to come here; the Minister cannot do so of his own accord.
With respect, the Leader told me earlier that the Minister was aware this debate was taking place. Other Ministers are available. The Minister of State left the House when this debate began. When I was Minister I was here on several occasions when I had no responsibility for the debate taking place but out of courtesy on the part of the Government, I stayed to hear the views expressed and I conveyed them to the relevant Minister. That is the least we could have expected this afternoon but I will not let these inadequacies distract us from the debate. The people who came here are fully aware of the position and will judge for themselves.
In society generally, we have treated people with disabilities and impairments in a shabby manner over the last number of years. The Government made commitments about special financial contributions to deal with the problems. The Acting Chair is as aware as I am of the position in the mid-west, where people like Mr. Ger South have been campaigning for years to have action to deal with the problems. All we hear are more commitments to White and Green Papers but no practical solutions. Where are the finances coming from to deal with these problems? Were it not for the fact that we had Brian Crowley here as a Senator, who is now an MEP, some of the improvements that have been made to facilitate handicapped people would not have been made at all. He created an awareness of the necessity to deal with these issues. Even today, due to lack of accommodation, many people cannot gain access to Leinster House to hear Members of the Seanad and to hear, if we can, what the Government proposes to do about these things.
This discussion is centred mainly on the problems experienced in Dublin Bus. It is, however, a symptom of a malaise throughout this country and in every area of Government administration which needs to be addressed. Do we have to wait until the European Union or some other institution forces us to introduce a bill of rights for people with impairments and disabilities? Why can we not get our own Minister to do it?
The Minister for Equality and Law Reform is sheltering behind a Commission on the Status of People with Disabilities. Everybody in the House knows what the disadvantages, handicaps and disabilities are and what is required to deal with them. Resources are needed to make education more available and we can positively discriminate in favour of disabled people by providing them with access to university. How many professional people suffer from incapacity or disability in the Four Courts, the Oireachtas or in public life generally? There are very few, mainly because they do not have the means of access.
In the mid-west we have seen — and I am sure the situation is the same elsewhere — the lack of accommodation, training places and workshops. In addition, there is a shortage of skilled personnel to help train people who could, in spite of some of their disadvantages, make a meaningful and worthwhile contribution to the economy and to society generally. In such circumstances handicapped people could make far more rewarding careers and lives for themselves. They do not want charity handouts from us but they are seeking a fair and decent regime that will recognise their problems and provide the finances to deal with them. Above all, Government Ministers should demonstrate some real commitment to deal with these problems.
The Minister for Transport, Energy and Communications has already tried to break up the board of CIE. Maybe it is time to do it, but I am not so sure what is behind those moves. However, if he could now intervene in this issue, set an agenda for change and provide the prospect that something will be done soon about this, then the debate may have been worthwhile.
I thank you, Acting Chairman, for the latitude you have afforded to me. I do not want to get emotional or hysterical about these issues but we are sick and tired of raising them through health boards and other organisations. The disabled continuously complain about the lack of job opportunities and prospects to make a meaningful contribution to society. It is time we made an effort to resolve these problems, otherwise we will be dragged screaming into the 21st century on this as on many other issues.
The note struck by my friend and colleague, Senator Daly, is the correct one in the circumstances. It is right to be angry and emotional about this issue. If we cannot attempt to articulate the frustrations felt by those less capable than ourselves — the disadvantaged among us — then we are really serving no useful purpose in this House. From that point of view we should all be emotional about it.
At some point we should have a statement from the Minister responsible. If he cannot be in this House a statement should come from him this afternoon in relation to the points that have been raised here. Otherwise we are just talking to ourselves. I cannot help but think that it is a bit like Hamlet without the prince as we stand here. However, we will do what we can in the circumstances.
Like Senator Daly and others, I have spent some time talking to representatives of the organisation which picketed Leinster House today. It was regrettable that they had to go to such extreme lengths to put across a legitimate point of view. The debate on this issue seems to have started somewhat late in this country. It is very far advanced in Europe and is all but completed in the United States following the proactive campaign by the American counterparts of our Irish friends. They managed to persuade federal and state governments to invest the moneys necessary to ensure that many of the points raised here today are redundant.
Senator Honan raised the question of European funding wherein lies part of the answer. I refer to the Operational Programme for Transport, 1994-1999 which, under the heading “Economic Context”, states:
The purpose of the programme is to assist the fundamental aim of achieving further substantial progress towards the national and European Union goal of economic and social cohesion. The programme is designed to underpin and support local development. Article 130a of the Maastricht Treaty will strengthen economic and social cohesion and in particular reduce disparities between the levels of development of the various regions and the backwardness of the least favoured regions including rural areas.
When one reads on to discover the amounts of money being allocated under this operational programme, the figures are quite staggering. Over £2.6 billion is currently being allocated under the Operational Programme for Transport between 1994 and 1999. Of this, £356 million is being allocated specifically to the Dublin Transport Initiative and other transport uses in the capital city and region. Another sum of £275 million is being allocate for rail development nationwide. This is an astonishing sum of money. If one looks at the Exchequer subvention to Iarnród Éireann and adds to it the amount of money from Europe for bus and rail investment — but primarily for rail investment — over the next five years, the actual amount of money which CIE themselves are going to generate from their own resources in terms of fares and other commercial activities is quite a small percentage.
It is disingenuous of the Minister responsible to pass the buck and say he has no role in the day to day operations of CIE in this area, or for CIE to say they have no plans to implement any of the proposals which our lobby group has been asking for. Something is definitely wrong. There should be linkage. The European Union should request this Government to ensure that there is an adequate response to the points raised by the lobby group. It does not matter who is in Government because it is an operational programme that started in 1994 under one Administration and by 1999 will, I hope, be operating under another Administration. The only way forward to shift this mind set and the culture of indifference which seems to have built up at State level is to persuade the European Union to refuse to give the State a penny unless it is prepared to implement proposals such as those outlined.
There are also commercial considerations. An estimated 7,000 people in this country use wheelchairs. It is estimated that about 1,000 of them use specially adapted motor vehicles. This leaves approximately 6,000 wheelchair users who would use public transport were it not for the restrictions placed on them. There are people who are disabled in other ways, including the aged who would be the walking disabled. These people, because of age or physical disability, do not have the confidence to confront the restrictions placed on them by the current public transport system. They are afraid to use a bus or a train because adequate provisions are not made for them. Bus stations, railway stations and public transport generally tend to attract a mixture of people which can be quite intimidating, particularly for elderly people on their own.
Recent figures indicate that we are a rapidly ageing population. By the year 2020 a significant percentage of our people will be over 65. We should not just implement these decisions for today; they should be implemented so that they will be in place for future generations. Commercial considerations centre around those figures. Some 70 per cent of public transport in Germany is in line with the suggested proposals. This has resulted in a 25 per cent increase in public transport usage in Germany. What would be the commercial impact of these proposals on Irish society?
The Department of Social Welfare provides travel cards for Iarnród Éireann. Increased usage would mean that Iarnród Éireann and Bus Éireann would have more money to invest instead of having to come cap in hand, as they do on a regular basis, to the State for further subventions. Hundreds of thousands of people in this country have travel cards. Following the recent initiative of this Government in extending the travel plan to residents of Northern Ireland, there is now a significant and growing pool of people who would use public transport more readily but are intimidated by the difficulties.
I am grateful for being allowed a little extra latitude. My final point relates to an experience I had in the last two years in a county which relies to a great extent on tourism. A couple wanted to extend their house to provide facilities for handicapped people wishing to take activity holidays beside one of our nice lakes. The grant aid made available to them was derisory. They had to source most of their finance from their own resources and had to borrow. If we are serious about tourism, specifically niche tourism, there must be a change in the culture and mind set of State agencies.
If we do nothing else today, we might change the attitude which seems to have built up over generations that the voluntary sector can look after the disabled; the disabled can look after themselves and the State just stands back and says, as the Minister stated in a reply to a specific question, it does have any operational role. That is not acceptable. If we do nothing else today but change that attitude, we will have done a good day's work.
I support the plea made by Senators to ensure that people with disabilities have access to public transport and other facilities. I can speak with a little authority. I was confined to a wheelchair for four months in the 1960s when I had the misfortune of breaking my right leg in a farming accident. I was anxious to continue farming and, before that leg had fully recovered, I was driving a tractor one day which went out of control and I broke my other leg. This necessitated my being in a wheelchair for four months.
I know the handicap these people experience where mobility is concerned. I am anxious, therefore, to make a plea for proper money and facilities to cater for the needs of the handicapped. There was a debate on this issue when I first came to the House a long time ago. The former Senator Jago mentioned that there were no facilities in this House for incapacitated people who had to use wheelchairs but that has improved since then. I do not see why it could not improve for the general public.
I met some of these people today and I pay tribute to the organisation. InCare, for the great work they have done, and especially for highlighting the problems these people face in terms of mobility and access to public transport. They mentioned Dublin Bus and the difficulties people living in Dublin suburbs experience when trying to use public transport. They have no facilities and this will have to be addressed. People need buses which cater for people in wheelchairs.
There are organisations, including the Cheshire Homes, in my own area which cater for these people. However, the midwest area needs extra funding to meet the needs of the disabled. When speaking on a different motion some time ago I mentioned that money can be found for other areas. This area is the most deserving of all and disabled people need whatever assistance they get. I ask the Minister responsible to provide money for these people. My experience tells me how difficult it is for them to get around. I hope their needs will be met and that they will be pleased with this debate.
I add my voice to the call for support for people who are less well off than ourselves and find it difficult to go use public transport, not only in Dublin but in every town in Ireland. It is a pity that they have to come to us to ask that these facilities be made available. Over the years successive Governments have done little to support these people and the time has come to take a major step forward. There have been many meetings and many statements about what could, should and might be done. If the Minister makes the money available, all of the rights these people demand could and should be met.
Every one of us knows somebody who has a physical disability. One of our own Members who went on to become a Member of the European Parliament, former Senator Crowley, demonstrated for us more than anybody else could the problems of being confined to a wheelchair. This House has never had facilities for people in wheelchairs. In a matter of days after Brian Crowley was nominated to the Seanad, the whole House was changed and money was found to fund that. Where there is a will there is a way. Brian Crowley is now in the European Parliament and is making a great case for people with disabilities. If he starts there and we start here, in the next couple of months buses of a type that would allow access to people with disabilities could be in use.
We seem to be very Dublin-oriented; we must make a case for all those throughout Ireland who have to use a wheelchair. They are in every part of rural Ireland. I fully support their every demand, not because it is the popular thing to do, but because I feel for these people and they have the same rights as everybody else. I ask the Minister to make funds available immediately. The time for talk is over, the time for action is now. I support the people who are here today and I want them to know that in me they have a friend who will support their cause now and in the future.
I am privileged to have the opportunity of supporting this call for the necessary facilities to be provided for people with disability in our national transportation system. I say that deliberately, as I am nominated to contest the Seanad election on behalf of the Irish Wheelchair Association. I and those who were privileged to have a nomination before have a special responsibility and obligation to promote on all occasions the rights of people with disabilities to enjoy the same access to public buildings, public transport and the exercise of all rights characteristic of citizenship in this country.
Before people with disabilities can exercise their normal rights, one of which is freedom of movement, many of the barriers that are unwittingly but nonetheless practically erected against them must be dismantled. We take access to public transport for granted and walk up or down the steps of a bus and get aboard a train without effort, but access to buses and trains is not available to people who have demonstrated time and time again, because nature does compensate, their intellectual and mental capacity and their conviction that they are at least on a par with the rest who do not have physical disability.
I have been struck at all times in any contact and association with people with disabilities by their capacity to be concerned as well for others, but they must of course fight their own battle first. We are living in an era of interdependence. We cannot discharge our responsibilities in society without ensuring that others who have exactly the same rights will be allowed to discharge theirs and will not be frustrated by lack of provision for their needs.
The objective studies of any group who examine this issue, for instance the Centre for Independent Living, make two reasonable demands. The first is that the Minister for Transport should give a specific commitment to ensure the public transport system in Dublin will be made accessible. Is that too much to ask? It must be made accessible to people with disabilities within a specific timescale, because if public transport is not accessible then CIE is not providing transport. It is public transport which does not cater for those who have a very special right to be included, those with physical disadvantages. It cannot be properly called a public transport system unless and until that anomaly is corrected.
As the sole shareholder in CIE the Minister is in a very special position to implement the recommendations of the report, particularly in relation to the replacement of existing stock by wheelchair accessible rolling stock. Interim solutions along the lines of the Vantastic scheme are also desirable. This would involve a fleet of fully accessible buses designed specifically for the mobility impaired and owned and controlled by disabled people.
The impact on this House and on the nation of a Member with physical disability has been quite dramatic. Wheelchair access to this House has improved considerably as a consequence. All people, not just those who happen to have a disability, not only expect but demand that in all public facilities, including public transport, we will pull down the barriers which have been unwittingly erected against those in our society who are often most gifted in terms of their intellectual capacity and conviction, if somewhat disadvantaged in terms of a physical disability.
During promotional activity, many of us have spent perhaps 30 minutes to an hour in a wheelchair doing simple things such as trying to enter shops, to experience what it must be like for our fellow citizens every day. That must make us aware of the difficulties we unwittingly impose on our fellow citizens. I hope this motion will enable us to pull down the barrier that has been erected in public transport.
I agree with most Senators who have spoken eloquently on the need for a greater awareness, particularly in Bus Éireann and Dublin Bus of the need to make our public bus service more accessible for people with a disability. This problem could be overcome for what seems to be a relatively small amount of money. A lack of thought, planning and consideration has contributed to the situation in which we now find ourselves. Listening to Senator Daly one would think his party did not have access to finances during the past 40 years. He became very agitated when speaking about the failure of the present Government to do anything about this. I remind him that, not so long ago, he was in a position to do something.
There are areas, other than transport, which could be considered to see what the Government, and people in general, can do to break down the barriers and ensure that the lives of disabled people are made easier. How many local authority houses are built with wheelchair users in mind? A scheme of houses was recently built in my town and I challenge anybody with a wheelchair to use those houses with any freedom. The steps to them are quite steep. I would like the section of the Department of the Environment with responsibility in this area to draw up plans for local authorities to build specific houses in housing estates that are wheelchair accessible.
Very few of our public toilets are wheelchair accessible. All that is required in this regard is a gentle reminder from the Department of the Environment to local authorities to encourage them to provide wheelchair accessible toilets. The provision of a small grant would not be out of place here. We need to be that little bit more thoughtful and careful in our planning.
I add my support to this plea to help people with disability. I am disappointed with the lack of interest of CIE — in which vast amounts of money have been invested by successive Governments — in providing a proper service for the disabled. It only provides a very poor service for the general public. I recently took a trip on the Cork-Dublin train which was overcrowded and resembled a cattle train. Two people in wheelchairs had to travel between carriages, from Dublin to Cork, in disgraceful conditions. I have raised this issue at local level in connection with the manner in which people, particularly the handicapped, are being treated. I received inadequate information regarding long term plans. That is not good enough. One wonders where the money invested in that body over the years has gone and it is sad that disabled people have been neglected.
I have been a member of the Joint Services Committee for 13 years. It takes a long time to get anything done because of red tape. Different Departments are responsible for different things, files are lost and nothing happens. A pothole inside the gates of Leinster House cannot be filled, never mind those outside. However, when Brian Crowley became a Senator many things happened out of necessity. No one could pass the buck in that situation. The work needed to allow that young man to enter this Chamber was done in a matter of weeks. This has also happened in Brussels where Brian Crowley is now a member of the European Parliament.
The greatest waste of money occurs in employing consultants to consider problems. Our disabled young people should not be left on the sideline while consultants work and able bodied people should thank God that we have the use of our limbs and can walk around and complete our daily duties. State bodies should be more alert to the needs of people with disability and the use of consultants to tackle problems should be stopped. It is of very little use to handicapped people. Bus Éireann, which is heavily subsidised by the taxpayer, should move swiftly to accommodate disabled people.
The CIE subvention for free travel passes has been mentioned. At present CIE buses are travelling around empty like "Wanderly Wagons" and will only stop at certain points. Old age pensioners and disabled people are forced to walk two or three miles to get a bus. This is madness and a waste of public funds. A little common sense would make all the difference and a little Christian thought should be spared for disabled people. I ask those responsible to move to solve this problem.
I have a document from the Centre for Independent Living which includes a section entitled "Transport: The Key to Opportunity" and says that transport is the difference between opportunity and exclusion. This is the key for people with disability. This issue about access to transport only comes home to us when we experience it. I was once incapacitated with damage to my leg and forced to use crutches. People forget how difficult it is to enter buildings or use transport in such a situation.
We are committed to cherishing all of the children of the nation equally but when it comes to people with disability we have been remiss. I can see why CIE cannot afford to carry out work in this area. It is concerned with paying large severance sums and handouts. When people leave the company they are presented with cars, etc. It probably cannot afford to take care of people with disability if it has to take care of its executives. Maybe the Minister knows more about this than I do. Why did the Minister not see fit to come in?
The Leader clarified that earlier.
Are we short of Ministers? The Government appointed three or four extra Ministers. Even a Minister of State could have come in.
On a point of information, the Leader of the House explained that this debate was arranged by the Committee on Procedure and Privileges. The Minister was not invited as the Leader felt it was not necessary. If he was wrong, he has apologised to the House. That should be the end of the matter.
It might end it for Senator Doyle, but it does not end it for me. There should be at least a Minister of State here. For many years no Government has done enough for people with disabilities. It is a disgrace that we cannot make transport available to them. They ask for little considering the disabilities which some have. They only want to be able to get on a bus or a train. I do not give a damn how much it costs, it must be done immediately.
I spoke to the Minister for Finance, Deputy Quinn, at lunch-time and he supports this. There is one Minister willing to do something about it and I am delighted to report that. We must give credit where it is due. This debate would not have taken place had these people not lobbied us.
They were outside the gates for 55 hours.
Like most Senators I welcome this debate and would like to see action. It is all right to talk in the House and to score a few political points, but we need action and I hope the Minister will act.
Like other Senators I welcome this debate. Access to public transport is a basic fundamental human right and we have denied a significant proportion of the population a basic right for long enough. A number of years ago, courtesy of the Irish Wheelchair Association, I spent part of a day in a wheelchair in Bray. It was one of the most extraordinary consciousness raising experiences of my life. I felt as a citizen confined to a wheelchair, albeit for only part of a day, that I was excluded from a series of things which I regarded as a right. I was excluded from shops, from getting onto pavements in part of the town, from toilet facilities, a basic requirement if one is out on the town, and from public transport. This illustrated an extraordinary and an unacceptable oversight by planning, public and statutory authorities across the board. It is not an issue of partisan politics. People are sympathetic to the appeals being made here.
Public transport companies are seriously underwritten by the taxpayers, including those who are physically challenged. We are denying those taxpayers the right to participate in publicly, State owned transport. The situation on DART is unacceptable especially as it was built in the last decade and a half. The issue of access should and could, without any great cost, have been factored in. In fleet replacement of buses the issue of public access could and should be factored in. A point about access on the mainline rail was made. Sweden, for example, is including in its fleet replacement, trains accessible to wheelchairs and removable tables which allow a wheelchair to be parked to allow people to fully avail of publicly subsidised public transport.
The Centre for Independent Living has made a valid point of which we should be conscious. We should regret that we have not been conscious of it until now. The economic cost penalties, which are heaped on people who already suffer a physical disability and are confined to a wheelchair, represent positive discrimination against people who already face a challenge. This debate is timely and we, as legislators, should take steps to ensure that this reprehensible discrimination ends.
As a result of my experience with the Irish Wheelchair Association I asked the planning, urban and county authorities in County Wicklow to write into new development plans an access code which would become a code for all public and major buildings. For example, in every housing estate being built there should be dished footpaths not only as a facility for those who are physically challenged, but for women and men who push prams and people with burdens. It is a simple matter of thinking through the issue of access.
If we take steps in the next year or two in our local authorities — most of us are members of county councils and are representative of councils around the country — we could force an access code through. It is extraordinary that "planners" at local government level have overlooked this basic right. This debate focuses our attention on an issue which should be to the forefront of our minds.
I am honoured to be the Central Remedial Council's nominee in Seanad Éireann. We represent a wide spectrum of the public and we should from time to time, as in this debate, focus on minorities, those who are excluded and who are unfairly discriminated against and end all types of discrimination. Discrimination against those who are physically challenged is odious and unacceptable in a civilised society. I compliment the centre and those who spent 55 long hours outside the gates of the House. I assure them that as far as I am concerned their struggle and efforts have not been in vain. I am sure that is true of every Senator.
Will the Minister for Social Welfare or Health report back to the House?
Acting Chairman
It was stated that the Minister will probably make a statement.
We would like the Minister to come to the House at a later date to update us on the progress he has made.
On behalf of the Leader of the House, I thank Members who contributed to this wide-ranging debate in which many interesting points were raised. I also thank the Committee on Procedure and Privileges for arranging it. The Leader assured Members that a transcript of the debate will be sent to the appropriate Minister.
I thank the Leader for allowing this debate and for acceding to the request to extend it from one to two hours. It has been a worthwhile exercise and I have no doubt he will relay to the Minister the wishes and the deliberations of the many Members who contributed today. I hope he will respond positively.