Seanad Éireann debate -
Thursday, 2 Nov 1995

Vol. 145 No. 2

Order of Business

Mr. Manning

The Order of Business is items 6, 1 and 2. Item 6 is merely procedural in that the Progressive Democrats wish to withdraw a Bill from the Order Paper. The proposal in relation to item 1 — Statements on Education — is that the Minister will speak for not more than 15 minutes and the first speaker from each group for not more than ten minutes with five minutes for each speaker thereafter. At 12.10 p.m. the Minister will take questions in accordance with the procedure which operated on previous occasions.

Item 2 will commence at the conclusion of item 1 and there will be no sos. There is wide interest in the Statements on Education. Although Members have the right to use the Order of Business as laid down, I appeal to them, unless they have something of great consequence to say, to curb their enthusiasm to ensure there is as much time as possible available to those who wish to participate.

Item 17, motion 23, in the names of the Progressive Democrats Senators deals with the governance of the universities. I would like to be clear on where we stand on that. I was approached to have a debate on this motion rather than on what was ordered today. I did not agree to that because it was not what the House had indicated to me previously. I have no difficulty in having a debate on that motion or on the amendment I have put down.

I gave an undertaking last evening to the leader of the Progressive Democrat group that I would amend the motion so that it became a substantive motion. I have done that. I also undertook to make time available not later than the end of the next three weeks. It will not be taken next week but it may be the week after and will not be later than the end of the next three weeks. That is a very reasonable proposal. I will also circulate copies of the briefing notes given to all Government Senators yesterday as a basis for that.

Mr. Wright

I wish to record the Fianna Fáil party's appreciation and gratitude of the way in which the business of the House was ordered yesterday by the Leader. We on this side of the House appreciate that party politics are set aside from time to time. You displayed leadership qualities and I thank you for the way in which the business was handled yesterday on the sudden death of Deputy Brian Lenihan

Mr. Dardis

I listened carefully to what the Leader said to me today and yesterday. Yesterday, he said to me that as soon as proposals were published there would be time for a full debate on the matter of the governance of Trinity College, Dublin, and the autonomy of the colleges of the National University of Ireland. I did not regard that as a firm enough commitment and I still regard what he said this morning as not being specific enough in terms of the timing. Accordingly, I wish to move an amendment to the Order of Business.

I move amendment No. 1:

That a minimum of two hours be given to statements on education; that item 17, motion 23, be taken at the conclusion of item 1; with each speaker to have ten minutes and the Minister to take a question and answer session before the motion is put.

This morning, there is another spin in the national newspapers on this matter. We have been given a succession of information — if that word could be used in the context — through the columns of the national newspapers. This is the forum in which these matters should be debated and not the columns of the national newspapers. It should be particularly debated here because the founders of the State thought third level education was so important that members of that sector should be directly represented in this House. We now have the complete reversal of that situation where the State wants to be represented in the universities and to virtually control them.

An Cathaoirleach

We cannot discuss the matter now.

Mr. Dardis

It is relevant to the motion before us and I want to outline the reasons for my amendment.

An Cathaoirleach

The Senator has made his point very clearly.

Mr. Dardis

This is the forum where this matter should be dealt with and this is the fourth or fifth time we have seen it in the newspapers. I ask the Leader to give me a firm commitment that within the next fortnight——

Mr. Manning

I gave such a commitment to the Senator last night and this morning.

Mr. Dardis

Then there is confusion about words. I want a firm commitment that within the next fortnight the substantive motion——

Mr. Cregan

The Senator got his answer.

Mr. Dardis

After all, a Chathaoirligh, we meet on a Wednesday afternoon——

(Interruptions.)

Mr. Dardis

It is for the House to decide, I do not decide the issue.

An Cathaoirleach

Senator Dardis, without interruption.

Mr. Dardis

I am putting the point to the Leader. We meet on Wednesday afternoons and on Thursdays — there are others days in the week when we could quite easily meet. I do not see the difficulty about dealing with this matter and this is the forum where it should be dealt with.

Mr. O'Toole

There is a difference of opinion between the Leader and Senator Dardis on what was agreed informally on how we would approach this. In the interests of peace and avoiding an unnecessary vote this morning we should have a comprehensive discussion on education this morning and not focus on one individual point. The points made by Senator Dardis are crucially important in terms of third level education and all the independent Members feel they should be addressed.

The Leader has given me an absolute commitment that this issue will be dealt with separately. I would prefer to have two bites of the cherry — one today on the general issue of education and another one later. In the interests of peace, I also recognise that there are particular political reasons for a demand to have that debate at an earlier date. While I understand that a specific date cannot be indicated at this time, I appeal to the Leader to give a commitment to the House that it will be dealt with within the next fortnight. That is enough time for everybody to examine what is still a live issue.

Mr. Magner

I gave an undertaking to some people last night to raise the concern of a number of people in Cork about the incident involving a doctor there. In relation to the self regulatory position of the Medical Council and other professions, I ask the Leader to initiate a debate in this House on the principle of self regulatory bodies and how they serve the public interest.

Mr. Mooney

I rise on foot of an undertaking from the Leader yesterday on an issue I raised on the Order of Business in the context of the peace process and in reference to the media reports, which I hope are untrue, of the imminent breakdown of the peace talks between Sinn Féin and the British Government. The specific issue is the signing by the Irish Government yesterday of the convention on the transfer of prisoners and the indications that the British Government is not prepared to accept the jurisdiction of this State which is prepared to accept 30 republican prisoners into our prisons. There seems to be a logjam which is obviously critical to the ongoing peace talks. In that context, I once again ask the Leader if he could give the House any information on what is going on and if the media reports are accurate. Would it be possible for the view of the Minister for Justice to be accommodated whenever Northern Ireland is debated in the House?

Mr. Norris

Will the Leader find out the current status of the equal status Bill, which is a very important item in the legislative programme and which we have been promised? I know there have been difficulties but I would like a very firm commitment that we will have an equal status Bill before the end of this Government's term.

I am particularly interested in the matter referred to by Senator Dardis. However, as I said yesterday, given that six Members represent university constituencies, it would be good politics to discuss this matter with those whose constituencies are directly affected by that. I am also concerned that I did not receive the briefing document on this subject as of yet, although my colleague, Senator Henry, did. Perhaps she has some political influence which is beyond my scope.

An Cathaoirleach

A question for the Leader.

Mr. Norris

I ask the Leader to ensure that all of us are kept as informed as possible. While it would be a pity to limit the discussions with the Minister this morning, there is a tradition on this side of the House that, whatever about the substance of the issue, we, as a matter of respect for parliamentary democracy, stand for a vote if one is called. I shall certainly act on that principle if the Progressive Democrats call for a vote, despite the fact that it rankles somewhat that this matter was raised and pushed so vigorously without consultation with the university Senators.

Miss Ormonde

While I agree with the spirit of the Progressive Democrats' motion on the universities, the Leader has stated that we will have this debate. The whole House, and not just the six Independents, should be consulted. Position papers have been forwarded to the heads of the universities. If we got those papers immediately, we could have an informed debate. The Leader and Senator Fitzgerald, as members of a governing body, would have an input to this discussion. As a graduate, I am very concerned and would welcome a debate on this matter but we need only wait two weeks. It would be pointless to have the debate today because we do not even have the relevant papers. We should get the position paper immediately and then proceed with the discussion.

Ms Honan

I second Senator Dardis's amendment to the Order of Business.

Mr. Manning

I thank the Leader of the Opposition for his comments. Yesterday was a special day and the House reflected the enormous sense of loss and great depth of feeling for our late colleague. The House did so with dignity and in a fitting manner.

I undertook to convey Senator Mooney's views to the Government and I will do so. As the Senator knows, other things happened yesterday. I will ascertain for Senator Norris the current state of the equal status legislation.

Mr. Bohan

There is no rush.

Mr. Norris

There is an awful rush because of the discriminatory attitudes of some of the good, clean living members of the Licensed Vintners' Association with whom Senator Bohan is associated.

An Cathaoirleach

Senator Norris already made a contribution.

Mr. Manning

Both I and my predecessor in this position have always been reasonable in dealing with requests from the House. We always kept our word. I said this morning that this motion will be debated within three weeks and earlier if I can arrange it. I will not be forced to give a date which I might not be able to keep for a variety of reasons when I have given a reasonable timeframe within which this motion can be taken. If it can be done within two weeks, it will be done within two weeks. I have never broken any word I have given to the House, no more than any Leader of this House has done. If I say the debate will be held within three weeks, it will be held within three weeks. If it is possible within two weeks, it will take place within two weeks.

The question raised by Senator Magner is worthy of discussion and I will see if it can be arranged.

An Cathaoirleach

Is the amendment being pressed?

Mr. Dardis

In deference to what Senator O'Toole and Senator Norris have said in particular and given that it is their immediate constituency and obviously they wish to contribute to the debate, I am prepared to withdraw the amendment. However, unless this matter is dealt with satisfactorily we will come back to it very quickly.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Order of Business agreed to.