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Seanad Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 12 Dec 1995

Vol. 145 No. 13

Harbours Bill, 1995: Committee Stage.

Section 1 agreed to.
SECTION 2.

I move amendment No. 1:

In page 8, subsection (1), line 37, to delete "for the Marine" and substitute "in charge of Marine Affairs".

I proposed this amendment because the 1946 Act seems to incorrectly state that "the Minister" refers to the Minister for Industry and Commerce and I wanted to devise a clear wording. Over the years both the Minister for the Gaeltacht and the Minister for Agriculture have had responsibility for marine affairs. We now have a Minister for Defence and the Marine and at one time there was a Minister for Fisheries. I thought we could get over this problem by referring to the Minister in charge of Marine Affairs. It is as simple as that.

When I saw this amendment I wondered what Senator Fitzgerald had in mind by proposing a change from "the Minister for the Marine" to "the Minister in charge of Marine Affairs". He has clarified it now.

There is nothing devious in it.

My imagination was beginning to take flight on the subject. The Government, in exercising the powers conferred on it by section 6 (1) of the Ministers and Secretaries (Amendment) Act, 1939, by order transferred responsibility for, inter alia, harbours governed by the Harbours Act, 1946, to the Minister for the Marine. The order in question is entitled Communications (Transfer of Departmental Administration and Ministerial Functions) Order, 1987. It was signed by the then Taoiseach, Mr. Charles J. Haughey, on 31 March 1987.

It must be satisfactory, if that is the case.

I thought that might convince the Senator. In accordance with that order, and the Ministers and Secretaries Acts, the definition of "Minister" in section 2 (1) of the Harbours Bill, 1995, is correct. It is not proposed to amend the definition as requested by Senator Fitzgerald. I advise the Senator that if it is decided at some time in the future to transfer responsibility for commercial seaports to some other Minister, it will be necessary that the Government of the day make a transfer of functions order to provide for that eventuality.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Section 2 agreed to.
Sections 3 and 4 agreed to.
SECTION 5.
Question proposed: "That section 5 stand part of the Bill."

I am concerned with regard to this section because it involves the repeal of certain sections of the 1946 Act. Does this interest with some of the amendments I tabled which request that certain sections of the 1946 Act be repealed? Will we overtake ourselves in this matter? Section 5 states that certain sections of the 1946 Act are repealed and I have tabled amendments in relation to that Act. Am I too late in this regard?

The section provides that the Harbours Acts, 1946 to 1976, stand repealed in relation to the 12 new port companies with effect from, and including, the vesting day of each company. The vesting day of port companies may be established under section 87 in respect of all or any of the 13 small harbours. The commencement date of an order may be established under section 88, which transfers responsibility for all or any of the 13 small harbours to the relevant local authorities. The Harbours Act, 1946, is the main body of legislation governing harbour authorities. I do not believe that Senator Fitzgerald requires a line by line account of each of the revocations.

No, I do not.

The section does not affect the amendments tabled by the Senator.

Has a date been set for the vesting day? The Bill may be passed tomorrow and may then go the Lower House for amendment. When does the Minister of State see it coming into operation?

The principal work which must be undertaken following the enactment of this legislation will involve the establishment of the 12 new companies. A certain amount of preparatory work must be undertaken in order for this to take place. This work will include the preparation and adoption of articles of association and the preparation of certain works in relation to the share capital of the companies concerned. Some of the preparatory work in relation to this is already underway in anticipation of the legislation. There will be a period of time before the companies are established. It may be that vesting days for the different companies may vary, depending on the state of preparedness of the work which must be undertaken to facilitate their establishment. It is intended to move ahead quite quickly, once the legislation has been enacted, in order that the companies might be established as soon as possible.

Question put and agreed to.
Section 6 agreed to.
NEW SECTION.

I move amendment No. 2:

In page 12, before section 7, but in Part I of the Bill to insert a new section as follows:

"7.—A person guilty of an offence under the Harbours Act, 1946 shall be subject to the same penalties as applies in section 6 of the Harbours Act, 1995.".

What I seek here is clear and I explained it on Second Stage. The Minister is familiar with all the offences in the 1946 Act which are basically the same as those in the Bill. He has made a great job of the Bill by including fines of up to £1,500 and/or imprisonment for a term not exceeding 12 months. In other cases there are fines on conviction on indictment of £100,000. I want to bring all the penalties under the one "offences and penalties" heading.

For example, if a boat goes into Dunmore East — and I am only taking Dunmore East as an example because it is the best one I can give — which is a fishery harbour centre and the harbour master requests the owner or master of the ship to remove it and is refused, that is disobeying an order by the harbour master and is subject to a £10 fine. If the same boat went up river instead of entering Dunmore East Harbour and went to New Ross or Waterford and the owner was requested to remove the boat to a different position and disobeyed the harbour master, this is a different ball game altogether. He would move it quickly because he knows he would be fined up to £1,500 in Waterford and New Ross. This is crazy. The same thing happens in Dublin where boats can come in to Howth, Skerries or Balbriggan and they can disobey the harbour master and there are many other examples. In one instance I was asked what could be done with an individual and I said there was no point taking them to court because they would only laugh at us and the £10 fine.

Since there are many other offences, maybe I will wait for the Minister's reply. The offences in the 1946 Act should be upgraded; otherwise this is the way to do it.

I appreciate what Senator Fitzgerald is attempting with this amendment and I agree that the fines in the Harbours Act, 1946, are outdated and ineffectual but accepting this amendment would cause major drafting problems. For example, unlike in the Bill, the term "a person guilty of an offence" is not defined in the Harbours Act, 1946. Instead, each relevant section under the 1946 Act carries its own fine.

Having said that, the legislative programme of the Minister for Justice, Deputy Owen, includes a proposed Indexation of Fines Bill. That is the appropriate place to address the updating of the fines in the 1946 Act. Therefore, I am bringing to the attention of the Minister for Justice the matters Senator Fitzgerald raised on Second Stage and which he has repeated today, to ensure the fines which are provided for in the 1946 Act will be addressed in the Indexation of Fines Bill which is being prepared by the Minister for Justice.

Can a short Bill amending and naming the penalties be brought before both Houses between now and when this Bill becomes law? A certain section of the 1946 Act provides for fines of £5 or £10 for an offence. Putting all the sections concerning these offences together would be the best way to deal with it. However, will the Minister consider bringing in a short Bill to amend all the fines in the 1946 Act, or does he think it is better to wait for the Minister for Justice? The Department of Justice need not be involved.

I fully agree with Senator Fitzgerald's sentiments. He made an important point, which was made during discussions on the Department of Justice. The Minister for Justice is currently drawing up a Bill on indexation of fines. The Law Reform Commission also has a report on it; it took a considerable time for that commission report to be completed. This is a complex area, as outlined in that report. This Minister for Justice and previous Ministers for Justice committed themselves to introducing a Bill on index linked fines and this should be done as quickly as possible. It is a worthy and necessary exercise to accommodate Senator Fitzgerald's amendment, not alone in this Harbour Act but in all fines and penalties.

We all agree there is a necessity to update the fines in the 1946 Act. I do not have any hard views one way or the other as to how we do that. I understand the way in which the Minister for Justice will deal with the matter is the easiest. The Harbours Bill is not the only legislation with outdated fines that need to be updated and indexed. This may be the most expeditious way to deal with it.

I am happy to examine, if the Indexation of Fines Bill is slow in being drafted, whether it might be desirable to examine the harbours legislation in its own right. From the information available to me, it seems the Indexation of Fines Bill is likely to be the quickest way of dealing with the matter, but I will still examine Senator Fitzgerald's suggestion.

I welcome the idea of indexing all fines, but should we separate our Bills too much? It may be better to keep them together. If the Indexation of Fines Bill takes a while to be drafted, we should speed it up. Legislation should not come here without having charges encompassed in it.

When the Harbours Bill, 1995, becomes law and the penalties in the 1946 Act remain the same, one would have a position similar to the example I outlined at the outset, where Dunmore East would have one fine, while another fine would apply up river. I am only concerned with getting it right. The Minister may consider introducing a short Bill dealing with this matter if the other Bill to which he refers is slow in materialising. It would be nice if they were all brought in together.

I am happy to consider this suggestion but I expect that the legislation being prepared by the Minister for Justice will take care of the problem.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
SECTION 7.
Question proposed: "That section 7 stand part of the Bill."

Section 7 line 11 states: "...of the First Schedule cause a private company...". Why the word "cause"? Should it not be "...order a private company conforming to the conditions laid down..."?

The responsibility is being placed on the Minister to establish the companies. The establishing of the companies will involve more than simply ordering that they be established, and there is, as I mentioned earlier, much preparatory work that will have to be undertaken in this regard. It is not, therefore, simply a matter of the Minister making an order saying that the Dublin Port Company shall be established as and from a certain date. The Minister will have to ensure that certain other things are put in place which will cause the company to be established. It is more than simply making an order.

The Minister used the word "order" in his reply.

Question put and agreed to.
SECTION 8.
Question proposed: "That section 8 stand part of the Bill."

What is meant by subsection (2) which states "Section 6 (1) (a) of the Companies Act, 1963, shall not apply to a company."? With regard to subsection (3) (b), which deals with the availability of funding, one of the criticisms of the existing harbour authorities has been that they are very limited in what they can do by way of raising capital and undertaking proposals for development without having to go through a process whereby they must get agreement, from the Minister for the Marine, who, in turn, has to get approval from the Minister for Finance.

A major criticism of the Harbours Acts, 1946 to 1976, and of the other legislation, has been that the harbour boards, and now the new companies, will, to a large extent, be under the control, in a very strict way, of both the Minister for the Marine and the Minister for Finance. It would be bad enough to be under the control of the Minister for the Marine, although the bodies concerned could live with this as most harbour boards are in daily contact with the Department of the Marine. However, many laudable projects have been refused permission to proceed because the Minister for Finance of the day, for whatever reason, chose not to support them financially. This left many boards in situations where important and required developmental work was unable to proceed. The proposed legislation sets up new companies and gives them autonomy and a mandate. What controls are being exercised which would damage the possibilities of companies undertaking speedily the work which many of them feel is necessary to be done, and is long overdue with regard to investments?

Section 8 also mentions the First Schedule which sets out the names of the companies. The Minister will be aware that the First Schedule not only proposes to suggest names but puts the names of the companies into the proposed legislation. Will the companies have any remit in this regard? For instance, will a company be in a position to change its name, or would this have to be done by way of legislation? If a company were to decide, for example, that it would be more advantageous from the point of view of development to change its name, would it be in a position to do so without having to amend the legislation?

The First Schedule also repeals a range of previous legislation. Where does this leave the position with regard to, say, the Kilrush Harbour Commissioners? Is this body dissolved? Is this written into the proposed legislation? This is a sweeping section and I would like more clarification from the Minister.

Senator Daly raised a number of questions. With regard to subsection (2), and section 6 (1) of the Companies Act, 1963, not applying to these companies, this provides that the companies may dispense with the use of the term "limited" or "teoranta" in their titles.

With regard to the share capital of the company and the formation of the company, section 8 (3) deals with the authorised share capital of each company. This is necessary as the amount of authorised share capital must be shown in the company's memorandum of association in accordance with the Companies Acts.

Section 8 (3) (a) provides a formula for calculating the authorised share capital of each company. Section 8 (3) (b), on which Senator Daly raised a question, provides, in each case, for the rounding up or down of the precise figures arrived at under the foregoing formula in order that the authorised share capital would comprise round figures in accordance with normal practice.

Section 8 (3) (c) empowers each company, with the consent of the Minister, to divide its shares into different categories and section 8 (3) (d) prohibits the issue of shares in the share capital of any of the companies other than those provided for in sections 19, 20 and 25. This is to ensure that the companies remain in public ownership.

Section 10 provides for the issue of shares to the Minister for the Marine and the Minister for Finance, and both Ministers are prohibited from transferring or alienating their shares. Section 20 provides for the issue of shares to the subscribers to the memorandum of association of each company. Here again, the shareholders are prohibited from transferring or alienating their shares. Section 25 provides that the Minister for Finance may purchase shares in a company, such shares to be held by the Minister for the Marine for the purpose of financing capital works by a company.

With regard to the question the Senator raised about the First Schedule dealing with the names of the companies, each harbour authority concerned was consulted before a decision was made on the names to be used. We made a change on Committee Stage in the Dáil with regard to what will now be the Shannon Estuary Ports Company as there was concern with the original draft of the Bill which referred to the company as the Shannon Ports Company, in that it was considered that this name might be somewhat restrictive in terms of its responsibilities. It was, therefore, changed to the Shannon Estuary Ports Company. In accordance with the Companies Acts, the companies may, I understand, change the company name if they so desire, and the Acts provide a formula where this may be done.

Kilrush is one of the smaller harbours which obviously will not be State companies and which are not covered by the 1946 Act in that they were not listed. It is one of the smaller harbours for which a number of options are being provided in this legislation. They include transfer to the local authority although that option need not necessarily be exercised.

Will Kilrush Harbour Authority continue in existence even though there are questions about its jurisdiction? Kilrush Urban District Council has been the harbour authority and it deals mainly with Cappagh pier. That is an important area because the pilot boat based in the lower Shannon operated from there. What is the Minister's view of the present situation for Kilrush Harbour Authority? Has it any jurisdiction or mandate?

With regard to section 8 (3) (i), how is the value of the property assessed before it is transferred?

The harbour authority for Kilrush is Kilrush Urban District Council; it is designated under the 1946 Act as a harbour authority. That will remain the harbour authority for Kilrush. The legislation provides for a number of options which might be exercised by smaller ports, including Kilrush. One option is that it remain under the 1946 Act; another is that it be transferred to the local authority. Each option will be considered on a case by case basis but, pending any such consideration, the status of Kilrush and the position of Kilrush UDC as the harbour authority will not be changed.

Senator Cregan asked about the method of calculating the value of the property to be transferred to the company on vesting day for the purposes of calculating the share capital. The Department has commissioned a study by a firm of consultants on the financial aspects associated with the establishment of port companies and the outcome of that study will assist the Minister in determining what the share capital will be. Obviously, the respective port companies will also be involved in that exercise. The purpose of the exercise initially is to establish what the share capital will be on the establishment of the companies purely for the purpose of deciding how many shares will be issued.

Some authorities are in a good financial position while others are not; I do not wish to mention one or the other. It is also possible that an authority could be in a particularly bad situation financially but good infrastructurally. Dublin Port, for example, has a very good infrastructure. A huge amount of work and money have been invested there. Would it not be a good investment from the private sector point of view rather than other areas? In other areas, realistically, the work would not be there although the same infrastructure and money have been made by the authorities. A private investor would be looking to invest in areas where there is plenty of business. There is an opportunity in this Bill for people to avail of the infrastructure that has been built up over the years, particularly on the east coast.

If Kilrush wished to carry out important remedial work — let us suppose the pier were to collapse; it nearly did — who would have the responsibility to do that work and from where would the finance come? If the pier were to fall into the sea next week — God forbid — who would have responsibility for replacing it? This is the type of activity in which harbour boards are involved, certainly in the lower Shannon area. If Kilrush pier were damaged and it cost £25,000 to £30,000 to repair, would Kilrush Harbour Authority have responsibility for carrying out that work? Would the Department deal with that authority or would Kilrush have to deal with Limerick or Foynes?

We are transferring our harbours to private companies. Is the Minister saying that the share capital will be different in each harbour board?

I will make a final attempt to dispose of the Kilrush question. I thought the Shannon Estuary was complicated enough and had hoped we had found a solution to it. However, it appears the problem has switched to the other bank.

The Minister has not heard from us of yet.

If the pier at Kilrush falls into the sea, it is the worry of Kilrush UDC which is the harbour authority. It would deal directly with the Department of the Marine rather than with the other port companies in the estuary.

With regard to the questions raised by Senator Cregan and Senator Burke, I wish to make it clear that this legislation is not handing over this country's ports to private companies. The legislation establishes the 12 larger ports as semi-State companies. We have expressly provided that the shares which will be issued to the Minister for the Marine, the Minister for Finance and, in order to comply with the terms of the Companies Act, the directors of the companies shall not be alienated. In other words, there is no provision in the legislation which would enable a private investor who has looked at the company in Dublin, for example, to buy some of the shares. The ports will be in public ownership and will be controlled by the semi-State companies which are being established. The majority of the shares in the companies will rest with the Minister for the Marine. For technical and legal purposes, one must rest with the Minister for Finance and one with the various directors of the company.

I do not wish to differ from the Minister but we could discuss this under sections 9, 10 and 11; however, it is relevant to section 8. Section 11 provides ample opportunities for any person or group of people to get involved and invest in any harbour. The section says "to promote investment in its harbour". Let us not give the impression that where people see opportunities in certain areas they will not be able to avail of them.

Dublin Port, which is in a particularly bad financial situation, will be helped and this is only right, especially where its workforce is concerned. However, we do not want to see private investors owning 49 per cent or 50 per cent of its shares after it has been helped and making a great deal of money as a result. If we can be assured that this cannot happen, I would be satisfied. There is an opportunity for people to become involved in upgrading, promoting or investing in port harbours.

In section 8 we are dealing with the ownership of harbours which relates to share capital. The section deals with the formation of a company and the way the share capital will be determined. Later sections deal with how shares will be distributed. Section 19 (3) (b) states:

Save as authorised by paragraph (a), the Minister shall not transfer or alienate his or her shares in the share capital of a company.

Paragraph (a) refers only to the transfer of individual shares to individual directors. The Minister is not free to sell the company's shares. There will not be a situation where somebody will own 45 per cent or 50 per cent of the company.

Section 11 deals with the objects of companies. They are being given the freedom to work with private sector interests in the development of ports. Such work is already taking place. If an importer or a shipping or port interest wants to develop a facility, the port company has the freedom to work with such investors in the development of that project but this does not extend to the selling of shares to these or other interests. Ownership and control of the port company will remain in public hands but the legislation provides companies with freedom to engage in joint ventures or whatever is required to develop ports.

The Minister is saying we are not prepared to give away the total infrastructure of ports. He stated that some ports are involved in joint ventures with the private sector. I have no hang ups about private sector involvement; we need investment to make progress. We are prepared to invest over £90 million in a deep water port in Ringaskiddy. Developers are building warehouses opposite this port and this should not happen. Assistance is being given to ports in financial trouble, particularly Dublin Port. I do not want to see ports in financial difficulties, particularly from the point of view of their workforces. We need to assist ports but the Bill provides for the establishment of port companies which will provide investment opportunities for the private sector. Section 11 states that one of the objects of such a company is "to promote investment in its harbour". I am worried that private investors will dictate what happens in a port. Can this happen? If it cannot, I am satisfied.

That cannot happen. The share capital of the company will remain in public hands. The control of a port company will rest with its board of directors, who will ultimately be answerable to the Minister, who will be the shareholder. The format for the board is provided for in the Bill. Senator Cregan expressed concern on Second Stage about the possibility of vested interests having control of ports and there was a great deal of debate on this. The Murphy report strongly recommended that port companies should not be controlled by vested interests and that such interests should not be represented on boards. We will probably have further discussion on this when we come to the relevant section.

The boards of port companies will control ports. Inevitably, ports need development and the Senator would agree that this is desirable. Warehouses will be needed and there may well be terminal facilities which will be required by various shipping interests. At the moment such facilities are being developed with private sector interests. Examples are developments which have taken place in Dublin and the development in which Irish Ferries will be involved. Senator Cregan mentioned some of the developments taking place in Cork. These are being undertaken to complement improvements in shipping facilities. The Bill enables port companies to encourage such investment in ports but in doing so they will not concede ownership or control of the ports. The Bill underwrites public ownership and control of ports while at the same time allowing the semi-State companies which are to be established the freedom to engage in commercial ventures with the private sector in the interests of developing ports.

I am anxious that we should be clear about this issue. Can the Minister give an example of what the financial structure of a port company will be? Will a local authority be able to take share capital in such a company? The north bank of the Shannon Estuary is almost entirely within the administrative jurisdiction of Clare County Council. The lands adjacent to Moneypoint generating station are also under its jurisdiction. Can it take share capital in the new port company in Limerick Harbour? Can the Minister give an example of a typical financial structure, say that of Dublin Port?

Local authorities will not be able to take share capital in port companies. The Minister for the Marine will hold the shares of companies. There is a provision for one share to be issued to the Minister for Finance for technical reasons which I am sure Senator Daly understands. There is also a provision to comply with the terms of the Companies Acts with the issue of individual shares to the directors of the company. None of those shares can be sold or handed over to somebody else. The Bill is clear about where the share capital will rest.

The involvement of the local authorities in the running of the companies is provided for in the composition of the boards. Three of the 12 members of the boards of each of the port companies will be nominees of local authorities. That will vary from port to port. The procedure provided for in the legislation is that the Minister for the Marine will consult with the Minister for the Environment about what local authorities and in what number they may nominate people to the boards of the companies. For example, in Dún Laoghaire the nominating local authority for the port company will probably be Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown County Council. On the other hand, a port company such as the Shannon Estuary Port Company has had a number of nominating authorities, including Clare County Council, Limerick Corporation, Limerick County Council, Tipperary North Riding County Council and Kerry County Council. Some formula must be agreed because five will not divide into three. Some arrangement must be arrived at as to which local authorities will appoint members to the board of the Shannon Estuary Port Company. The same is true in Cork or Galway where a number of local authorities have an interest in the port companies. It is through the representation on the board that the local authorities will be involved in the port companies. However, they will not be enabled to own or acquire share capital in the companies.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

I remind Senators that we have discussed this section for half an hour and we have teased it out in great detail.

I remind the Leas-Chathaoirleach that I have not spoken yet.

Now that the Minister has clarified the situation as regards shareholding in various companies and has elaborated in detail on how they should be administered, I want to discuss the Shannon Estuary Port Company. Clare takes up almost one side of this port. The land content from Loop Head to Limerick is greater than that from Kerry head to Limerick. The Minister, when considering the formation of the board of that company and the development of the port as a result of the increase in the number of large bulk carriers, should remember that the future development of these areas will be the deep water areas downstream. Clare is entitled to at least 50 per cent of the representation on the board of the Shannon Estuary Port Company.

This debate did not commence today; it has been ongoing for the past 20 years. We in Clare have strong views on this issue. We believe we have been unfairly treated for a number of generations. This is an opportunity to apply natural justice and the laws of democracy and fair representation. I urge the Minister to take this matter into consideration.

I am not worried.

Senator Neville is not worried because he has only one authority. I ask the Minister to keep that matter in mind when forming the board.

I have been a Member of the Oireachtas for quite some time and this is the first time a Minister has come in with a female team. I compliment him for that.

That is a sexist remark.

We can have all the pious aspirations we wish but what is contained in the Bill will apply. There is a sizeable amount of deep water on the Clare side of the estuary which has not been developed. Some of the deepest water has been developed at Moneypoint.

There is a marina there.

It is an excellent marina which had great success this summer. The deep water adjacent to Moneypoint and right up to Labasheeda is an important area. Can Clare County Council not be a partner in the share arrangement with the harbour board to put an infrastructure in place to develop the deep water part of the estuary adjacent to Moneypoint? If not, some provision should be made to enable it to do so. I am sure Senator Taylor-Quinn supports me in this regard because we are attempting to find a mechanism whereby important deep waters could be further developed to create investment and opportunities. A number of projects may be interested provided some of the expensive infrastructural work was in place. Can Clare County Council take share capital to undertake such a project? Is that provided for in this Bill?

I note Senator Taylor-Quinn's comments about the shout from Clare which will be heard in the Shannon Estuary Port Company. It will be a matter for the Minister for the Marine and the Minister for the Environment when the legislation is enacted to determine——

It will be a loud shout if it is not proper representation.

Is the Minister saying that Clare will not get representation?

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

The question of representation is for another day.

That is anticipating a problem which may not arise.

As regards the issue raised by Senator Daly about whether a local authority could engage in a joint venture with the port company for the development of some facility in the port area, a local authority may do that. One of the freedoms the port companies are being given is to engage in such a joint venture with a private interest or with a local authority where the local authority, for example, owned land or had an interest in relation to it. The mechanism by which it can be done is not by issuing share capital but by establishing a subsidiary company, if it requires a formal structure to enable it to advance. Section 13 (3) (g) provides for the establishment of a subsidiary company with the approval of the Minister for the Marine and the Minister for Finance. If, for example, Shannon Estuary Port Company and Clare County Council want to get together to proceed with some project which requires a formal company structure, that can be done by way of a subsidiary company established under this legislation.

Is there provision for Clare County Council to go to the new Shannon port authority, when it is established, and say it would like to take a £0.5 million share capital?

That is not provided for. The Shannon Estuary Port Company would deal with Clare County Council as a company with a local authority. To the best of my knowledge local government legislation permits local authorities to engage in this type of joint venture, so it can be provided for by way of the subsidiary companies.

The local authorities are not very different compared to the private investors so.

Not necessarily.

Because a private investor, as was pointed out a minute ago——

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

Senator Daly must make his points through the Chair, please. I would ask him to be very brief.

I am trying to facilitate you in winding up the section.

My question relates to what we are debating, but it is more pertinent to section 11.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

Then leave it until section 11, Senator Burke. Does the Minister wish to make any further clarification?

In the old 1946 Harbours Act local authorities could be guarantors to harbour commissioners and port authorities for sums of money. Will this happen in this Bill? I cannot seem to find it.

The guarantor of loans, in so far as that term is used, in the case of the 12 port companies will not be the local authority. It will be the State through the Minister for the Marine and the Minister for Finance. Freedom is given in the legislation to enable port companies to obtain loan finance up to a certain limit.

Question put and agreed to.
SECTION 9.
Question proposed: "That section 9 stand part of the Bill."

Under section 9 (2) (a), on the consultation process for the extension of the jurisdiction under Part 1 of the Third Schedule, there is reference to consultation with the company concerned. If there was an extension to jurisdiction to transfer jurisdiction from one harbour board to another, obviously under the section, as I read it, consultation would take place with the company in whose jurisdiction that section of foreshore is in ownership. No other company would have consultative rights.

For example, I see a situation in the future — maybe in the near future — where Foynes harbour will look for considerable extension to what is proposed today. It makes a lot of sense that Foynes would own the waterways from its harbour board to the Estuary of the Shannon, especially with Panamax and Cape size vessels coming in.

What is the consultative procedure if an application is made by Foynes harbour — and I am sure that the same thing would apply in New Ross and Waterford — for an extension of the jurisdiction that would be proposed later? What consultative procedure would Foynes have available to it through the Minister? What decision making process would the Minister use in coming to a final decision on that?

There is a certain amount of anxiety about this section because, in effect, the Minister has power here to make any changes he wishes, even though he has already decided the jurisdictions in the Schedule.

We need clarification in relation to the Third Schedule because we have tabled an amendment to it. Do we deal with the amendment now in this section or at the Schedule stage?

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

You will deal with the amendment on the Third Schedule.

Section 9 is causing some anxiety to people, especially in view of the fact that the Minister has absolute power to make these decisions. He has the ability to consult with people but at the end of the day he makes the decisions.

It would appear that he has limited ability to consult because it says "consultation with the company" only not with companies.

This needs to be clarified. It leaves the section open to minister-pretation unless the Minister can clear the air about it.

I would like clarification on that section, particularly the explanation in relation to Shannon port in the Third Schedule, which defines the landward limits along the River Shannon and the rest. I specifically want to find out if those rights are below the high or low water marks. Where does the right begin on the landward side? We know we have the right of a waterway, but is the right up to the high or low tide points? This is important because quite a number of people have foreshore rights.

I do not see why I should put down an amendment and have it discussed at this stage.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

The point the Senator is making would be more relevant to the Third Schedule when we reach that.

I have not read Senator Fitzgerald's amendment. I have not even laid eyes on it.

She has not even read the thing.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

Senator Fitzgerald's amendments were circulated last Friday.

I am aware of that, but I am telling you that I have not read them. I am asking a question specifically about section 9 in relation to the limits applicable as explained in part 1 of the Third Schedule. I want to find out where those rights are. Are they within or below high or low water? This is an important point because all landowners along the estuary have foreshore rights. When this Bill is passed we do not want landowners to find themselves in a legal tangle over established foreshore rights they have had for a considerable length of time.

You will have noted, a Leas-Chathaoirligh, as Senator Fitzgerald has reminded you, that there are a number of amendments, including an amendment in my own name, to alter the limits of Foynes harbour and consequently make alterations to the limits of Limerick harbour. I had hoped that circulation of those amendments might have settled the difficulties in the mid-west, but it would appear from Senator Neville's contributions that, according to the phrase that was used, "there are still ambitions to the west".

The mid-west.

The provision we are dealing with here in section 9 is the general one dealing with how the limits of a harbour may be altered in future. Senator Neville has drawn attention to the use of the singular form, in other words, "that the Minister may, after consultation with the company, concerned..." He wonders, for example, in the case of Limerick and Foynes, New Ross and Waterford, or Dún Laoghaire and Dublin, which of the port companies that refers to. It refers to both of them, of course, in those circumstances because if you change the limits of Foynes you have to make consequential changes to the limits of Limerick. So, both companies would have to be consulted. The situation is similar in the case of other companies if the limits are being changed. For example, if Dún Laoghaire and Dublin are being changed, both the Dún Laoghaire harbour company and the Dublin port company would have to be consulted.

There may be other situations where the second company does not come into the picture at all. If, for example, Wicklow wanted to extend its limits there is no other port company involved there. It would then simply be a matter of consulting with the individual port company. So, where there is more than one, both will be consulted.

As far as I can see there is no provision here that in any proposed changes the Minister might wish to make at a later stage, they will be brought back for discussion here. It would be desirable that no changes be made without first laying the proposed changes before the Houses of the Oireachtas for the usual period of time to enable the Houses to discuss the changes. I would be happy if the Minister could assure me that it is covered.

Section 3 states that any proposed order will be laid before the Houses of the Oireachtas.

I seek clarification on the high and low water mark in relation to the jurisdiction of the company. The reason I pursue this matter is that there are a number of farmers who were given specific rights on the foreshore after donations from landlords in the past. These rights are important and have been contested in the courts on a number of occasions. It is important that the jurisdiction of the new harbour authority and the limits of the company are clarified so landowners would know their position.

This question does not lend itself to a general answer. The foreshore, unless it can be proved otherwise, is deemed to be State owned. All the foreshore, therefore, in the Shannon Estuary is State owned unless landowners in the area can prove title to some or all of it. It may be the case that some foreshore is privately owned but it is the assumption that it is State owned, unless a title can be shown.

We would like an assurance in regard to rights to remove sand, gravel or other materials from the foreshore. As Senator Taylor-Quinn will know, we had a long discussion on this issue in relation to the acquisition of foreshore rights by the ESB when it proposed to close them off at Moneypoint. Landowners would be happy if they were assured that their rights as regards the removal of beach material or sand and gravel could not be interfered with by these companies.

The Bill does not change foreshore rights, which are governed by the Foreshore Acts.

This is a question of semantics, which may be redundant. The Minister spoke about the company concerned and explained that it would by definition involve every company concerned. Section 29 refers to performance by a company or companies of its or their functions. What is the principle by which "company" is used on certain occasions while "companies" is used in others. It would be easier to state "company or companies" in section 9 (2) (a) rather than have the clear but somewhat convoluted explanation of why only "a company" is used in those circumstances.

I am not very good at semantics and I do not know the answer. I will look at this before Report Stage and if the parliamentary draftsman believes some tidying up is desirable in this section, we will introduce the necessary amendment then.

I do not mean to be awkward but it would be simpler to say the company or companies concerned rather than having to go through the motions.

I will ask the parliamentary draftsman to reproof it to see if it is linguistically correct.

Question put and agreed to.
SECTION 10.
Question proposed: "That section 10 stand part of the Bill."

We are back to the question of control by the Minister for Finance. What has he to do with the memorandum for setting up the company? I agree with the necessity for the companies to be in consultation with the Minister for the Marine but why is it necessary to get further approval from the Minister for Finance? Is this a strangle-hold by the Department of Finance?

It is the standard format in the establishment of State companies to seek the approval of the Minister for Finance for the memorandum of association. For technical reasons the Minister for Finance is one of the shareholders, although the Minister for the Marine is the principal one.

Question put and agreed to.
SECTION 11.
Question proposed: "That section 11 stand part of the Bill."

On Second Stage I said that the objects of a company were a dream and they should be stronger. We are dealing with millions of pounds and these should be the statutory duties of a company. The Minister said these ports were commercial, with which I agree. However, most deal with fishing boats and fishing. A substantial catch of fish is landed in the port of Galway. Yet there is nothing in this section to state that fishing facilities or fishermen should be looked after.

I am not referring to every port but to those fishing boats use — for example, Galway and Foynes — if only to land fish. It is easy for a boat fishing in the Porcupine Basin to sail to Foynes where its fish are loaded on a lorry. I am not saying that these ports should be developed as fishing ports but that fishing activities in these ports should be recognised and developed where possible. The principal objects are weak so it would be better if statutory duties were imposed on a company, particularly when we will hand over millions of pounds worth of business to it.

Section 11(1) (c) states: "to promote investment in its harbour" and subsection (1) (d) states: "to engage in any business activity, either alone or in conjunction with other persons,". If people enter into discussions with the management of a port authority and decide to invest, could a situation arise where no activity could take place other than which they consider best?

I would be particularly worried about the following example. The Minister of State made a point about the involvement of local authorities. When B & I pulled out of Cork, no ferry company was prepared to work in the Cork area. The Cork and Kerry authorities, Cork County Council and Cork Corporation got together with the Swansea/Cork ferry and attracted investment from all port authorities. We got the ferry moving and it has an excellent passenger rating. It was to the advantage of the Cork and Kerry regions to bring people into the southwest and it was particularly important for the Ringaskiddy area of Cork.

In both the Cork and Dublin ports there are instances where it would be to the advantage of the private sector to invest in particular works, whether bulk, car transport, oil or whatever. The danger is that these groupings, by their investment, will dictate what happens. I do not want to mention any particular group but I have seen people on port authorities dictate to their advantage. I do not wish to see large amounts of money being invested in the infrastructure of all our ports and these people coming along and using the facilities to their advantage.

I ask the Minister of State to explain what is meant by "engage in any business activity, either alone or in conjunction with other persons, that it considers to be advantageous to the development of its harbour". That is a dangerous line. I would prefer it to read "engage in any business activity that they consider best for the harbour or the port authority". That is a dangerous line because the other persons could say that it was agreed they would work in conjunction with the company, that they are now in power and can do what they believe is best for the port. Am I right or wrong?

I want to refer briefly to Senator Fitzgerald's contribution. It is not unusual for companies to have broad objectives. When talking about those objectives, one can give certain directions to the directors as to their functions but one does not tie them down. Senator Fitzgerald talked about duties which, to an extent, are covered in section 12 of the Bill. It is important when establishing a company that must survive commercially that it has broad objectives whereby the board, the management and the employees know exactly what the company is doing. There should be broad guidelines rather than exact functions.

Duties will change from time to time but the objectives should override the duties and the duties should derive from them. There should be strict duties and strict control, but the objectives create the headline. When duties are being examined the board and management can look to the objectives of the company. The company can be evaluated on the basis of how successfully it achieves its broader objectives rather than on the definition of its duties.

This section represents the dynamics of the Bill because it includes the objectives of the new companies. To some extent it is important that we speak for a few minutes on this section. Many people believe this is just a reorganisation or streamlining of the administration of Government harbour ports. It is a totally new departure for harbour companies. The message should go out from this House that this is a new mandate for harbour companies in a range of areas not least of which are the promotion of leisure, recreational facilities and the development of tourism. It is as well that before the boards are put in place the new companies would be familiar with the mandate, which is fairly broad.

Little has been left out that cannot be covered under the legislation and this section. Can companies organise events? The Tall Ships race and other such activities generate an amount of economic activity and tourism revenue in ports. We saw this in both Cork and Dún Laoghaire when the Tall Ships European race visited Ireland. The boards have a wide role and can involve themselves in a wide range of activities, most of which they would have had knowledge of in the past but only dealt with in a peripheral way.

From now on the new ports will be central to the development of a range of activities within their jurisdiction. They need to take keen account of the important economic contribution that marine leisure recreational activities can make towards economic prosperity in any region. As well as developing commercial business, the boards should be encouraged at an early stage to examine ways and means to exploit the full potential of harbours from the marine leisure point of view. It was never done and the development of the waters around the island has been neglected in the Irish economy. This legislation will give the boards a new lease of life and they can get down to the business of developing marinas like the one in Kilrush, which I would cite as a good example of how a decent marina can be developed.

This is the kernel of what one is trying to do in many respects. One broadly and enthusiastically approves of it in light of what Senator Daly and many others have said. Senator Neville made the general point that it makes no sense to try to energise the activity of ports by establishing independent authorities and then restrain and unduly paralyse their activities by a plethora of minute regulations. Having said that, I was impressed by the powerful contribution of Senator Cregan on Second Stage, and today he has repeated the implication of some of the points he made.

It is essential that the boards are seen to operate in a manner in which the public can have confidence. I am perturbed by some of the phraseology in the Bill and I am taking up where Senator Cregan left off. The phrase "in conjunction with other persons" is not just mentioned in section 11 (1) (d). The same phraseology occurs in sections 11 (4) (a) and section 11 (4) (b). I may reflect my own innocence in these matters. The section states that a board may "appropriate any part of its harbour to the exclusive use of any person for the purposes of any trade or profession on the payment to it of such charges as the company considers reasonable". That seems a pretty arbitrary authority to confer on a company without any qualifying phrase referring to tendering, who is to know about it or accountability. It may come from other legislation, but it seems very absolute to determine the exclusive use of any person on the basis of what it considers reasonable.

Section 29 provides for performance audits and states that the Minister may "appoint a person to carry out an examination as to the efficiency and cost-effectiveness of the performance by a company or companies of its or their functions...". How is the performance auditor to assess the efficiency and cost effectiveness of the performance of an activity which has been appropriated to the exclusive use of any person unless there is some criterion or details of alternative uses to which it might have been put? I do not want to labour the point unduly, but I presume there is good reasoning behind the provision because it seems to confer arbitrary powers on the board. Such powers could give rise to public unease which would be detrimental to the effective operation of the boards.

The Minister stated that local authorities may join subsidiaries of companies in conjunction with the new harbour boards. How could small harbours such as Westport or Ballina, which have no funding and attract little commercial activity at present, start up? Can they be funded directly through the Departments of the Marine or Finance? If they are to receive funding from a local authority, must they establish the type of subsidiary company to which the Minister of State referred? Is there some mechanism where such harbours might receive financing to establish their business?

My second point relates to fishery protection vessels. In relation to the fisheries protection vessels which dock at various ports around the country, the Central Fisheries Board has requested that unnecessary paperwork be eliminated and that these vessels should have free call at all ports. I ask the Minister to consider this matter because these vessels should not incur charges. The situation which exists where one Government Department is forced to charge another for services rendered will also be eliminated.

A number of Members referred to fisheries during their contributions. I received a letter from the Eastern Regional Fisheries Board, which states:

Many of the ports and harbours, in addition to providing a haven for fishing boats, are also salmon and trout fisheries. On the east coast, Dundalk, Drogheda, Dublin, Wicklow and Wexford all have salmon fisheries and this [the eastern] Board issues over 190 licences to fishermen operating in these areas. There is some conflict between the needs of a busy port and that of a salmon fishery. There is also some concern that if the ports are entirely commercial, the interests of the other traditional users may be overlooked; consequently we [the eastern board] believe that there should be some provision in the legislation to recognise these traditional users of the estuaries on which these ports are located. This consideration is not unique to the east coast, but would apply to all ports situated in estuaries frequented by salmon. It is essential that there is a system which provides for the safety of shipping while still recognising the traditional rights of fishermen.

On behalf of the Central Fisheries Board and the remaining fisheries boards around the country, I ask the Minister to consider this matter in relation to section 11.

I do not like the use of the word "objects" in relation to the objectives of the company. It is the incorrect word to use when outlining an entire new role for a company and would not enter the articles or memorandum of association. It is a word which is used in relation to the general management of the company. However, this section involves more than that at present. Will the Minister reconsider the use of the word? The provisions in this section in relation to management, provision of services, the kind of investment which may be promoted within the company and how it might link in with other joint ventures in the area, are somewhat vague and should be clarified. We are attempting to win the confidence of the public in relation to this Bill.

I have attempted to decipher section 11 (2), but it is pure gobbledegook. Much of my time has been spent trying to understand it.

Read it out.

I will read the subsection to provide the Minister with an example of the difficulty involved:

(2) Nothing in this section shall prevent or restrict the inclusion among the objects of a company as stated in its memorandum of association of all such objects and powers as are reasonably necessary or proper for or incidental or ancillary to the due attainment of the principal objects aforesaid and are not inconsistent with this Act.

I had to read the subsection word by word to understand what is involved.

It is crystal clear.

Crystal clear to a certain few.

This is a very important piece of legislation and I am experiencing great difficulty understanding it. Will the Minister clarify the provisions in this section so that the public might understand it? The new roles and functions involved must be clarified in order that the new companies may work properly.

With regard to the use of the word "objects", a mechanism must be put in place by the Minister on the taxpayer's behalf to ensure the success or otherwise of the objectives of the companies. When established, do the companies come under the jurisdiction of the Joint Committee on State-Sponsored Bodies? Can the committee request that members of the boards and management representatives of any or all of those companies appear before it for the purpose of investigation? Is the committee empowered to request any information from these people which might be required by itself or other Oireachtas bodies for the purpose of evaluating how successful any of the companies may be?

My good friend Mr. Jackie Healy Rae might say that Senator Ormonde is completely bamboozled.

I began my Second Stage speech by referring to safety. The Bill contains no provision for the landing of helicopters or the provision of helicopter services. When ships get into difficulty at sea, the rescue services usually land their helicopters at a hospital or a port itself. An onus should be placed on the companies to provide some section of land for such services, particularly in Dublin port or Dún Laoghaire. I am aware that lifeboat services are catered for in this regard. A special place is provided in Dingle to allow helicopters to land.

That is for Charlie Haughey's benefit.

It is not to facilitate Charlie Haughey, but I knew someone would say that that was the reason behind it. It was the original reason, but the landing site has been maintained. Helicopters land there on a regular basis. When the Minister of State visits Dingle after Christmas, I will show him the site.

The Minister of State is writing it down.

It is a natural place for helicopters to land, but proper beacons and lights should be provided to facilitate landings which take place at night. It is better that the distance between a helicopter landing area and a rescue site be a short one. I am not demanding that all the ports should have these put in place but they should make land available to put them in place if they were so required.

I referred indirectly to this section on Second Stage and, in particular, to the objects of the company and the issue of engaging in commercial activity either alone, with other persons, or in activities which they feel are in the interest of the company. On Second Stage I said we would want to be careful about empowering a State company to engage in activities other than those directly related to the harbour. I cited the example of Aer Lingus's involvement in a wide variety of other interests which it had to sell off subsequently due to difficulties which arose. The primary responsibility and interest at all times should be the activity within the harbour and the promotion of business for the harbour. It would be unwise to engage in activities which could be deemed to be ancillary in a distant fashion. There would be a danger if a company lost sight of its primary responsibility that this could work to its hindrance. The responsibility would rest with the Minister to keep a watchful eye to ensure whatever is ancillary is directly ancillary rather than peripherally ancillary, and there is a difference.

The success or failure of the company will depend on the number of boats which traverse the harbour. That is where the real activity will take place, business will be conducted, trade will improve. That is how more jobs will be created and it is one area on which we should concentrate.

Apart from that reservation, this section is to be commended because it empowers the company to proceed and adopt a modern approach to developing the harbours. Section 11 (1) (c) states that one of the principle objects of a company should be "to promote investment in its harbour" and this is wise and important. Every company must have a marketing section to promote the harbour, bring business to it and show how competitive it is, while undertaking the other essential work of providing the proper infrastructure that will attract more business into the country.

I was interested in what Senator Ormonde had to say on the convoluted subsection, section 11 (2). It is fairly straightforward and I have no difficulty with it but I am concerned about who, in the final analysis, will adjudicate on the company involving itself and having "powers as are reasonably necessary or proper for or incidental or ancillary to the due attainment of the principle objects aforesaid and are not inconsistent with this Act". Is it the company which will adjudicate on it, or will the Minister have an overriding view and contribution to make on it? If the company is the sole adjudicator on what is included in the memorandum of association, it may not necessarily act wisely and the Minister, as sole owner, may need to have an eye on that aspect of the section.

Where do I start? Senator Daly was right in saying that the legislation gives a new mandate or lease of life to the main ports in the country. It is not simply a question of dressing up the existing harbours structure and commissioners in a new title, format and so on. It is actually a new departure in the administration of our ports and there is a good reason for it. The reason is simply that we are an island and we conduct over 90 per cent of our trade through our sea ports. We depend on good shipping services and efficient ports in order that goods, passenger traffic, tourism, etc. can get on and off this island.

It is fair to say that over the years there was a certain amount of criticism of the way in which the ports had been run. Certain concerns were raised, for example, about restrictive practices, which did not always apply to those restrictive practices which were alleged to have occurred on the dockside by the dock labourers or whatever. There were concerns also, as Senator Cregan stated, about restrictive practices in what was perceived to be the control of some ports by a small number of interests and, in some cases, by individuals. For that reason the Government of the day established the Murphy review group to examine the entire ports system and make recommendations, the outcome of which is the legislation before us.

The group recommended that the larger ports be established on a different basis than the harbour commissioners. As we know, the harbour commissioners have provision for the control of ports by boards which had as many as 29 members drawn from different sectoral interests. I am sure this made a lot of sense in 1946, but in 1995, in a situation where the economy must compete so aggressively in the European market and under the demands of industry, tourism, etc., that needed to be changed.

What we are creating in this legislation is a different type of body to that of the old harbour commissioners. These are companies and they will have a commercial mandate. They will not be subsidised. I know Senator Cregan, in another contribution, expressed concerned about Dublin in particular, which he seemed to think would end up with considerable State largesse. That will not be the case. We have made provision in the legislation to protect the pension rights of pensioners and employees of port companies as is proper; but it is being made clear to the companies that they must trade commercially, make ends meet and trade in the commercial world. For example, any question or concern there might be of some kind of sweetheart deal between a port company and a port user would clearly not be possible because the port company will be driven by the commercial requirement to make ends meet.

The objects of the company which are set out in the Bill are set out deliberately in a general way because we want to give the maximum freedom to the ports, and the type of activity which they are engaged in will vary from port to port. Activities mentioned in the course of contributions, which included fishing and the protection of salmon, underlies the fact that they will vary from port to port. Ports will be different. They will be competing with each other. What will happen in Dún Laoghaire — the mix of tourist traffic through the carferry, leisure use, etc. — will be different from what will happen in Waterford, for example, which involves mainly container traffic and freight. In turn, that will be different from what ports at Galway, Limerick or Foynes might be doing. It is important therefore that the objects provide the maximum degree of flexibility possible to the companies.

The dreaded subsection (2) is, I suppose, the catchall. Anything which is not encompassed in the general object set out in the previous one can be written into the articles of association, which again is to provide the maximum degree of flexibility possible.

Accountability is set out in section 10, which states that the memorandum of association has to be approved of by the Minister with the consent of the Minister for Finance. The companies are being given the freedom but at the same time accountability is being provided for in the legislation.

A number of Senators raised the issue of accountability. There are a number of provisions in this Bill which will require the companies to be accountable. First, the board of directors of the company are appointed by the Minister and can be removed by him if they are not carrying our their functions properly. Second, not only will they be governed by the provisions of this Act but also by the requirements of the companies legislation, because they will now be companies. Third, as they are State companies, they will come under the aegis of, and be held accountable by, the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Commercial State-Sponsored Bodies. There is also provision for the performance audit, which was referred to by some Members. The companies will be audited not only on their simple financial affairs, but also as to how they are meeting the objects set out in the articles of association.

There is a requirement, which is new to legislation of this type, that in addition to the annual report the companies will have to make, the chairperson of the company will also have to make a confidential report to the Minister on the company's plans, how it is performing, what land it is acquiring, what business it is getting into etc. For example, Senator Lee raised the issue of the appropriation of part of a harbour to the exclusive use of any person or persons. This provision makes it clear that this is on payment of charges the company deems reasonable.

For example, there are a number of shipping services in Dublin port which require certain facilities to be provided for them, such as terminals etc. It is open to a port company to enter into an arrangement with a shipping company or a user of a port to provide certain facilities. In some cases companies, for understandable reasons, will want to have exclusive use of that facility, but they will have to pay for it. The disposal of any assets of the company, such as disposal or leasing of land etc., is provided for in section 15, which explicitly provides that they have to get a price that is not less than the open market value of the land. There are also provisions built in where independent valuations etc. have to be obtained.

We are attempting to set up vibrant companies providing efficient services to their users, contributing to the national and local economies in which they are located and operating on a different basis to the way in which harbours have developed up to now. But at the same time they will be accountable as public bodies and there are a number of provisions built into the legislation which underscore that.

I had held my fire during the afternoon because I am long winded and I had hoped we would gallop ahead so we could reach an amendment I had put down on section 13.

On which he could be long winded.

On which I could be very long winded.

So say all of us, Senator.

I had a conversation with the Minister and he has largely met our concerns on this section. Senator Fitzgerald has put down the same amendment so I am happy to leave it in his hands. Unfortunately, I have an engagement at 5.30 p.m. so I will not be here for it. However, having now abandoned my position of silence and waiting and composing myself——

We will be here all night.

——I have one concern with regard to section 11, which has been partly addressed by Senator Lee, and that is on section 11 (4) (b). The Minister has already referred to that. My concern is slightly different in that it has not to do with the commercial world. This subsection seems to give a wide power to the board. For example, in circumstances where the public have right of access and enjoyment to facilities such as a pier, harbour etc., the company could under this subsection dispose of that access to, for example, a yacht club or marina, whose facilities would be available only and exclusively to a small moneyed clique, which seems to be dangerous. It is not what the Minister intends but the capacity for this lies in this subsection.

However, I would like to reassure myself that section 11 is also governed by section 12 and the two have to be read together so that, for example, section 12 (d), which states that the company must "have due regard to the consequences of its activities on the environment, the heritage (whether natural or man-made) relating to its harbour and the amenities generally in the vicinity of the harbour" would govern their action in taking a commercial decision which might be inimical to the interests of the general public. I presume that would be the case, but I am not sure how much force this would have in law. Is there anything to inhibit or prevent a company, many of whose members, for example, might also be members of a yacht club, from disposing of this land and stopping the public from having access to it? That is the kind of matter that would concern me.

The Minister said we must live in a commercial world, but this may have serious consequences for traditional users of the estuaries, such as trout and salmon fishermen. What is the position as far as our fishery protection vessels are concerned? There should be a provision in the Act to ensure they do not have to pay, otherwise one would only be conducting a paper exercise and processing small payments between one Department and another. The Minister should examine that aspect. Our fishery protection vessels should have free access to all our harbours.

The Minister's statements about living in a commercial world could have serious consequences for our small ports. There may only be small fishermen using these ports. Does this mean the new harbour boards would have to derive all their finances from these small fishing fleets?

I appreciate the way in which the Minister replied to this section. The Minister said there is need for upgrading the ports and conducting operations in a modern way. Some port authorities have rationalised their ports since the middle 1970s to ensure they were working efficiently, but this Bill seems to be saying that other ports must also come into line with that. The port in which I am involved was rationalised several times and had its workforce reduced, but at the same time people who were involved in importing and exporting goods made more money. Sections 11 and 12 will defend them more because they give them increasing opportunities to avail of that which they cannot at present. From a stevedoring point of view, they have done exceptionally well up to now.

It is suggested that there will be no more money invested by the Department of Finance and that that Department would not be involved with the Department of the Marine unless there was a question of money. However, a back stop guarantee is provided here.

Why is it that ports which have not been prepared to take responsibility, as they should do under section 12, for the last 20 to 25 years can now get assistance? This is the main purpose of the Bill. This Bill was introduced not because we needed to upgrade ports which we believe are not doing well but because port managments were not managing well and now they will get a back stop guarantee from the Department of Finance. I do not suggest they should not get such a guarantee because they did not protect their work force. Of course the work force will be covered by their pension entitlements and they should get every assistance possible. However, when I consider what we had to do in a port area, effectively having to eliminate a work force, I am compelled to ask what we get under the terms of this Bill.

We are told we must become involved with the private sector, something we did not have to do hitherto and the system worked very well. Why did other ports not act in the same way? Why must we give back stop guarantees to port authorities that were not prepared to put their houses in order? This section directs that the people concerned must get involved with those who, down the years, made massive amounts of money out of our ports. For example, if the total cost per tonne of goods coming into the port of Cork was £2, 45 per cent to 50 per cent of it went to the management of the port of Cork, or the work force. I stand over this because I have the figures. Are we now going to give these people more authority so that they can do what they believe is right? We are even prepared to take steps to ensure that specific areas are designated for these people, and for them alone — and I am speaking not only of leisure areas. Can we allow multinational oil companies to take over a specific area within a port and forbid anybody else using it by threatening to go elsewhere? This can happen, indeed it has happened. The port of Cork lost work to another port because it was cheaper as it had not put its house in order. It was paying nobody; the workers were not covered, yet, that port and its authority can now turn to the State and demand money. This is what the Bill is about, and this is what worries me most.

At the same time we are creating a situation where every authority will be brought under surveillance and the Minister for Finance will exercise control. Regardless of the Minister for the Marine, if the Minister for Finance says no, no money will be provided, and this will oblige us to go to the private sector.

I do not agree that everything should be changed simply because of our views on one or two ports. Every port, including every small port, is going to suffer. There is a big danger that groups of people, golden circles of whom the Minister and I are aware, can take full advantage of the proposed legislation, use any port and take complete control, even though the Minister says they cannot. The Bill provides facilities which would enable such groups to gain total control of specific areas. There is a big danger that we could be handing out silver to people who, up to now, have been getting plenty of gold.

I cannot speak with Senator Cregan's experience or authority, and I welcome the way the Minister has answered the issues that have been raised. I must accept the superior insight of the Minister on a matter such as this but I am still unhappy about section 11 (4) (b). I accept that, in the vast majority of cases, the example the Minister has given may be the type of situation that applies, but the fact that companies are obliged to be commercial does not preclude sweetheart deals, as the Minister termed them. A sweetheart deal can be commercial enough, but it may be, by no means the most commercial deal that could have been arranged if there were a more competitive environment. In that sense, a general injunction to be commercial does not preclude this possibility in specific cases.

The Minister referred to the numerous accountability mechanisms, including the reporting to various bodies, such as the Oireachtas Joint Committees. This is desirable, but virtually all of them are retrospective and things come out afterwards. My concern is that the phraseology of this legislation is not tight enough to prevent things happening which can only be discovered subsequently. One does not want to choke development and this is the problem, but where does one strike the balance? I am still uneasy about this phraseology, and I hope it is not beyond the capacity of those involved in drafting the legislation to find something which permits enterprise, but does not encourage abuse of privilege.

Senator Norris has left the Chamber; given that there are conflicting commitments and duties here and that the board would have to balance the interests of the different types of consumers the Senator was mentioning, perhaps the answer to his question can be found in section 12 (2) which effectively provides that there is no legal sanction, beyond whatever general legal sanction there may be, to the general duties which are listed. This greatly weakens the series of good intentions that are expressed. There is nothing extra beyond what would be provided "...before any court to which it would not otherwise be subject". How far are these aspirational? How far is it possible to ensure that adequate cognisance is taken of them by the authorities?

There is no question of this legislation permitting any golden circle, or any other type of circle, getting ownership or control of our ports. The purpose of the legislation is to make it clear beyond any doubt that the ports will remain in public ownership and control, that they will function commercially and that they will be accountable for this functioning to these Houses, through the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Commercial State-Sponsored Bodies, to the Minister who has responsibility for ports and to the public.

A number of concerns have been raised with regard to these sections. Senator Lee and Senator Norris have taken issue with the use of the word "exclusive" in section 11 (4) (b). There is no intent in the paragraph to set aside any section of a port for the privileged use of any individual or group of people. The intention of the section is to cater for a situation in which a user, for example a ferry operator, might need a terminal facility at the port and might reasonably ask the port company for the exclusive use of that facility in order to run the services concerned. That is permitted. It is an enabling provision which will enable the port company to enter into such an arrangement. If the term "exclusive" is causing difficulty I have no problem removing it. Since attention has been drawn to it, I am happy to consider between now and Report Stage moving an amendment to delete the term "exclusive".

Senator Norris referred to other situations that might arise. He said that if yacht clubs have control of a port, they might decide to arrogate to themselves certain portions of the foreshore. They cannot do that under this legislation. In any event, access to the foreshore is and will continue to be subject to the provisions of the 1993 Foreshore Act. Similarly, the construction of buildings and so forth will be subject to planning permission. This Bill is not a licence for people to do as they wish.

Senator Cregan raised a number of issues. I do not wish to get into invidious comparisons between ports and how they have conducted their business in the past. I wish to say at the outset — I am concerned that the tone of the debate might have conveyed a different impression — that, by and large, the commissioners who have served on harbour commissions since 1946 have done a fine job and they were not remunerated. The 1946 Act has served this country well over the past 50 years and the people who have served on harbour boards and harbour commissions have done a fine job. I pay tribute to them. I would not wish criticisms of the performances of ports or views about the need to make changes in port administration to in any way reflect on the competence or integrity of the people who have served on such bodies. They are owed a great deal of gratitude.

No port is being given a blank cheque by this legislation. The backstop guarantee, to which Senator Cregan referred, was a phrase I used in the Dáil and was subsequently used in correspondence between the Department and port companies to refer to the provisions we have made to guarantee the pensions of pensioners and existing employees of port companies. It is well known that a number of port companies had not established pension funds. There is a requirement under the Pensions Act that pension funds must be established within a certain time frame. A number of the port companies were operating in much the same manner as local authorities where pensions are paid on a pay as you go basis and there was understandable concern — which I shared — that the enactment of this legislation and the establishment of separate port companies might expose those pensioners and current employees of those companies to the possibility that there might not be a pension fund to meet their pension entitlements.

The Government decided that the legislation should include a provision that, no matter what doomsday scenario might befall the ports concerned, the pensioners and the employees would be paid their pensions. However, it was made clear when putting that amendment forward in the Dáil that it was not giving a blank cheque for anybody and that the principal and primary responsibility for meeting pension liabilities rests with the individual port companies. Where a company has not established a pension fund or where that fund is under-subscribed, the company must use its own resources to build up the fund and meet it pension liabilities. The responsibility is on the companies concerned. The back stop guarantee is not a guarantee to the company that there is a cheque in the post or that a blank cheque is being given; it is simply a statement to the pensioners that their pensions will be paid. The companies will have to trade and where there are in financial difficulties they will have to face up to them by using their own resources.

The status of estuaries, such as Ballina and Westport to which Senator Burke referred, is not being changed by this legislation. This Bill is primarily concerned with setting up the 12 larger port companies and Westport and Ballina are not included. The future of Westport and Ballina and whether they should remain under the 1946 Act or be transferred to the local authority or whatever is another day's work. With regard to fishery vessels, they are liable for the normal port charges and port administration. I will look at Senator Burke's comments in view of the policing role of the fishery protection vessels.

With regard to the traditional users, there is no threat in the legislation to them. The objects and duties of the companies are expressed in a wide way and will vary from port to port. There are fishery interests such as salmon and mussel fishing in Drogheda, for example, which will have to be comprehended by the new port company. Similarly there are considerable leisure interests in Dún Laoghaire and, as Senator Fitzgerald said, fishing and other interests in Galway port. The way in which the objects and duties of the companies are expressed in these sections will enable those interests to be built into the articles of association so that the companies will have regard to those areas of activity in carrying out their normal business.

There is a great fear that there might be overcharging of traditional users of the estuaries. Perhaps the Minister would draw that to the attention of the companies when they are established and ask them to take cognisance of the concerns of traditional users so that they are not put out of business.

There is a fall back position. Concern has been expressed in both the Seanad and the Dáil that, because these companies are being given a commercial mandate, they will take a blinkered view of what it means and the mix of uses that has traditionally existed in harbours will be in some way disadvantaged. There is provision in the Bill for the Minister to give policy directions to port companies. If, for example, discriminatory or overcharging practices were being engaged in by a port company with regard to particular users, it is open to the Minister to step in and issue a direction to the port companies by way of policy in that area.

Question put and agreed to.
SECTION 12.
Question proposed: "That section 12 stand part of the Bill."

Section 12 provides that a company will—

....

(ii) generate a reasonable proportion of the capital it requires, and

(iii) remunerate its capital and pay interest on and repay its borrowings,

How does the Minister see capital being generated in companies that up to now have not been generating capital? What guarantee would be given to people who invest capital in ports and who may already have an interest in them?

Section 12 states that it shall be the duty of a company to ensure its revenues are sufficient to generate a reasonable proportion of the capital it requires. What is a reasonable proportion? Do we know what our expectations are in this respect?

Subsection (1) (a) contains a financial and accounting mechanism for companies to conduct their affairs to ensure their revenues are not less than sufficient to meet certain criteria. Subsection (1) (b) states that it is the duty of a company "to conduct its business at all times in a cost effective and efficient manner". If it is fulfilling the requirements of subsection (1) (b), are we to assume that it automatically follows that it is fulfilling those of subsection (1) (a)? What is the relationship in managerial terms between the two subsections?

A performance audit is an interesting concept. I do not know whether it would be practicable or not. Such an audit confines itself entirely to the efficiency and cost effectiveness of the performance. What are the criteria for this? Is it possible that a company can conduct its business in a cost effective and efficient manner and yet not meet the revenue requirement of balancing the books from one year to the next?

I am concerned with the impact the regulation of operations in harbours will have on traditional users of various facilities. Earlier we speculated that yacht companies will demand exclusive possession of parts of harbours and will not allow them to be used by less exalted beings. However, it is possible that yachting interests — I am not a spokesperson for them — may be at risk from a reorientation of activity in harbours. Does the Bill provide reasonable protection for traditional legitimate interests or are we relying on the common sense of the new boards not to interfere abruptly with them?

Section 12 (d) is important. The Bill is launching an exciting stage in harbour management and development. It is important that the Bill signals to everybody that the consequences of the activities of a new harbour company on heritage and the environment must be taken into consideration when it makes decisions. At times there is a great deal of concern about development and a balance needs to be obtained between development and protection of the environment and heritage. The Bill has identified this need.

We could have simply said that it would be the general duty of a company to make ends meet. The parliamentary draftsman might have difficulties with this phraseology but this essentially is what the section means. Senator Neville has rightly drawn attention to the requirement that a company in performing its commercial functions must have regard to consequences for the environment and heritage. Section 12 must be read in conjunction with section 11 and with the requirement to promote and protect leisure and other marine activities, trade and tourism. In both sections it is clear that it is envisaged that companies will protect traditional activities which have been pursued in harbours. Such activities very from harbour to harbour.

Senator Lee asked what is meant by a reasonable proportion of the capital a company requires. The section outlines general duties of a company. It is not possible or desirable to set down the precise proportion of capital a company should generate. At the moment considerable investment is taking place in ports which is supported by funds from the EU. In these cases EU funds form 48 per cent of the capital and port authorities have to raise the balance. Therefore, at present 50 per cent seems to be regarded as a reasonable proportion. There is a total investment in the order of £12 million in Waterford harbour and the port company knows it has to raise about £6 million to support this.

Port companies are providing this proportion in different ways. Some of them have the money to do so, some have to borrow and others have to make arrangements with port users for the generation over a period of income to support this. The reasonable proportion of capital which companies need to provide is in the order of 50 per cent of the investment. It would not be prudent or desirable to insert in the Bill fixed figures of what this proportion should be. The Bill provides a number of safeguards in the form of performance audits, annual accounts and the report to the Minister. This proportion will vary from port to port and from time to time.

Port users are investing capital in infrastructure. By allowing this to happen we may be creating a situation where they may gain advantage over other port users. I have seen this happen and I am sure the Minister is conscious of this. I understand that authorities must generate money but I am worried that certain port users may say that if they invest money they must have authority over ports. If this worry is unfounded, I will be happy with the Bill.

We could overcome this worry by not allowing port users to invest in ports and providing all facilities from public funds. The difficulty with this is that we could be a long time waiting for development in some ports. This is ultimately a question of judgment. Where arrangements are being made with port users for the development of particular facilities, the port company concerned must make an arrangement with that port user which does not confer on that port user an excessive control of the port's activities or close off other options which the port might want to exercise in the future.

Does the Minister understand the problem?

I do. Judgment must be exercised on how that is balanced. The Minister will have a supervising role. There is provision in the legislation for a confidential report to be made to the Minister about the commercial activities of the port -what it is doing and what it plans to do. It must signal to the Minister in advance, for example, if there is a major development which involves a particular user. If there is something prejudicial in that arrangement it can be picked up and because these are commercial State companies they are accountable to the committees of the House. Judgment must be exercised in these matters.

Question put and agreed to.
SECTION 13.

I move amendment No. 3:

In page 16, lines 9 to 15, to delete subsection (7).

I want to delete subsection (7), which refers to bonding for agents. It is unfair that agents should be asked to take out a bond or to insure themselves. The harbour company may become an agent and it would be nonsensical for it to take out a bond to protect itself from not paying. It would also give an unfair advantage to the company over the shipping agents because it costs money. The section does not say what size the bond must be. Will it be £10,000, £30,000 or £50,000? This will be an extra cost for ship agents. If ship agents are not good at their job they should be removed, like in any other profession. I will put this amendment to a vote.

The Irish Ship Agents' Association strongly objected to section 13 of the Harbours Bill, 1995, as initiated, which, for the first time in harbours legislation, was extending liability for payment of harbour charges to ships' agents. The association pointed out that an agent cannot be held liable under the normal law of agency practice for the payment of charges by his principal. In the light of the concerns expressed by the association, it was decided to delete "or the agent for" from section 13 (1) (a) (b) and (c) and also from section 13 (2) (a) (b) and (c) and to insert a new subsection (7) providing for a bonding arrangement. This was agreed to by the Select Committee on Enterprise and Economic Strategy.

The Irish Ship Agents' Association is equally opposed to the new subsection (7) and it made representations to both the Minister and myself on the matter. It was advised that the new subsection was an enabling provision only and that it would be a matter for each port company to decide whether all or any ship agents would be required to provide a bond and that the extent to which the provision would be invoked would be determined on the basis of the length of time taken by agents to settle their principals' accounts with the port companies.

The association continued to resist the provision of the new section 13 (7) and claimed that the bonding arrangement equally contravened the law of agency and that it may also be contrary to EU competition rules. I referred its claims to the Attorney General's Office for advice. I am now in receipt of his advice on the matter which states that the Department is free to promote any changes that might be at variance with the law of agency. The Attorney General also states:

Further, the shipping agents' concerns that section 13 (7) would be contrary to EU competition rules is not supported by any argument or legal reference. I do not see how the EU competition rules could be violated by such a proposal. In the event of there being no valid legal basis to the objection raised, it is a policy matter for the consideration of the Department as to how it wishes to proceed.

No legal reservations have been expressed in relation to section 13 (7) of the Bill and in these circumstances I recommend that it remains part of the Bill.

The original draft of the Bill contained a provision that the ships' agents would be liable for the charges on the ships concerned. We changed that on Committee Stage at the Dáil committee. We felt that while the agent would not be held liable, there was a necessity to have some provision in the Bill so that if an agent attempted to put business through the port without paying — I have not had much experience of this — there would be an enabling provision whereby the port company could require a bond from the agent. It is not envisaged that every agent will be required to set down a bond. This is an enabling provision which a port company might never have to exercise, but if it found itself in difficulty with an agent it might decide to use it as a means of ensuring that payment was made.

I hope that explanation is satisfactory and I am willing to listen to what the Senator says about it.

Section 14 contains almost four pages on how the harbour authority can get its money back from somebody who does not meet their obligations as regards paying harbour dues. Surely that is enough legislation to detain someone or to get the money back? I understand that the percentage of defaulters for payment of charges in a harbour is less than 1 per cent.

The Attorney General said it does not contravene EU laws. The only country in Europe with such a bonding system is Italy. There is no system in England or in any other country in the world where an agent must have a bond to enable a harbour company to extract fees from him in the event of a default by a ship he represents.

This bond will cost ship agents a lot of money. The company does not have to take out any bond and the company can also be ship agents. It is only an enabling section but it is written into the Bill which will be law. Therefore, a company will have the right to demand that an agent should have this particular bond. It is written down. Why do we not do it the other way, just blot it out and if needs be then let the company take the agent to court? There are plenty of other ways they can get at the agent. This is totally ridiculous.

I know the shipping agents have been in correspondence with the Minister as they have been with us. They said that originally the Minister agreed at the Select Committee, or earlier, to do away with it but that he came back after with this new effort, which is neither here nor there, that it is up to the company to ask a particular person to have a bond. Let us treat them all the same and let us have no bond.

On Second Stage I said I had an interest in this and that I would listen to the debate. I listened carefully to the points that Senator Fitzgerald made and to the Minister's response. I have tended to agree overwhelmingly with the views of Senator Fitzgerald on this Bill to date, but on this issue I have reservations about the points he is making.

A few years ago I got a marine surveyor to survey a boat for me. I insisted that he should have an indemnity bond before I paid him the money to do that job. In my own job as general secretary of a union I had to take out a bond as part of the rules of the union to indemnify me against errors that I might make.

Let us get one thing clear. The fact that a ship's agent would be required to take out a bond is not an indication of mistrust in that agent. The agent does not have control over the payment or otherwise of the money. The payment of the money is made from the ship owner to the harbour company and is done through the good offices of the ship's agent. But if the money is not paid and the ship's agent is held responsible and liable, that is far more threatening to an agent. That is a lay person's opinion and I will still listen to the arguments on it. It seems to me that a bond is a safer protection for the agents themselves rather than to be dragged through the court and to be found liable for the money. In addition it is an assurance for the harbour company itself.

It is not as if this is a very expensive form of insurance, but maybe it is. I listened to the arguments on that. I do not want people to have to drag other people to court in order to get money that can be paid for through insurance. We have been through all this with travel agents and auctioneers. It is a protection for the person buying the service as well as for the person giving the service. You could not afford to be a travel agent otherwise. What is the difference between a travel agent and a ship's agent? As elected public representatives, we will advise the public only to do business with a travel agent who is bonded and insured. Similarly, if I were advising a company, be it a harbour company or otherwise, I would advise them to do their business with someone whose liability is covered by insurance. That is not a reflection on them.

As a teacher I can be charged with negligence even though I might be the best teacher in the world. As a doctor I can also be charged with negligence. A court decides one way or the other on the question of negligence. It is a matter of whether your house or property pays for it or it is paid by an insurance indemnity.

I would have been vehemently opposed to the earlier version of the Bill because it would have been grossly unfair to hold the agents liable. As I understand it, this means that everybody is covered. I cannot understand who is the loser in providing a bond.

I tend towards Senator Fitzgerald's argument but I would like a few things clarified. I get very suspicious when we get into the area of legal argument. It has been my experience that for every legal person that puts forward an argument, there is a counter argument from another eminent legal person.

Particularly if it is an Attorney General.

As we discussed here before, we have never heard of a legal person who was not an eminent person. They are all eminent people. Section 14 provides for severe penalties, which I think are correct, but they all relate to the ship's owners or the ship's company. There are wide powers to detain and to dispose of their assets. Why in those circumstances is it required that the agent has to produce the bond?

From everything that is in section 14, it strikes me that the contract is between the ship's company and the port authority. So why is it required that the agent has to have a bond if that is where the contract lies. I do not see why the agent is required to have the bond. That is what I am trying to get at. What has the practice been heretofore in terms of how the money changes hands?

I am not familiar with how a port authority works, although there are people here who are very familiar with it. Out of my ignorance I am asking how the system works. Does the flow of money go from the ship's company to the agent and to the port authority? In those circumstances I can see a certain legitimacy for arguing that there should be a bond. However, if the contract is between the ship's company and the port authority I do not see why a bond is required.

I am concerned about charges. I am aware that there are particular State organisations which are still eligible to pay port charges. Is there any way we can avoid small amounts of money being transferred from one Department to another to pay port charges? For instance, why are we asking fishery protection vessels to pay port charges when they are doing a job that is relevant to our ports generally? In Cork and the south west generally we are pushing hard against drugs coming in off our coasts. Would it not be wiser to let services such as the fishery protection vessels have free rights rather than being obliged to pay charges to authorities?

Senator O'Toole was absolutely right. We oblige x number of travel agents to have bonds but the airline company does not have to have a bond. What would happen if the airline went into the travel company business without having a bond? You are asking the agent to have a bond but you are not asking the harbour company, which will do the very same business as the agent, to have a bond. If I am in Europe and I want to contact a company in Ireland, I go to the ship's agent. Because he has to have a bond, his charges are a lot higher than the company which does not require a bond. The agent should be treated in the same way as a company. The company has power to become an agent; it is as simple as that.

Sitting suspended at 6 p.m. and resumed at 6.30 p.m.

I made the case for the deletion section 13 (7).

We have come from a situation where the original proposal was that the agents would be liable if a shipowner defaulted on payments to the harbour, but we have changed that. The other extreme is what Senator Fitzgerlad suggested, that is, there should be no liability on the agent, either by way of direct liability or a bond.

If a harbour company provides a service to ship which leaves without paying charges to that company, the question then arises as to whether the agent, who introduced and made the arrangements for the ship, has any liability in this matter. This Bill does not suggest that the agent should have a bond or put up a security in each case but that the port company should have, as one of its means of dealing with this, the discretion to require the agent to put up a bond or some type of security.

Senator Dardis raised practical questions. If an agent made arrangements for a ship with a Panamanian flag to come into a port which provides various services for which there is a charge and the ship sails into the night, of course there is provision for seizing the ship and taking it to court. Unfortunately, we are operating in a situation where some shipping businesses use flags of convenience and third country crews and so on and it is not always possible in practice to use that mechanism to deal with this. If an agent does this once, we may say it is bad luck, but if it comes back a second time, it would be reasonable for a harbour company to look for a security because a previous ship had done a runner. This provision covers that type of situation.

I ask Senator Fitzgerald to accept that this is the position. This is an enabling provision which is not intended to apply in each case. Most ship agents have a good relationship with the ports and we do not anticipate an ongoing battle between agents and port companies. However, there must be a provision which would protect the port company and which would give it an option to exercise if an agent introduced business that would require such a response.

Section 13 states that a company "may require", which is neither one thing nor the other. I would rather delete that line or be more definite about it. A definite statement should be made rather than saying a company "may require" because that is open to abuse. A port company should be able to say to an agent that he must make provision for a bond. I am anxious about those words.

Since I last spoke I checked out aspects of this and I ask the Minister to clarify something which has been brought to my attention. In my initial contribution I understood that all business with ships was done through an agent. I am now led to believe that ships can deal directly with the harbour company without going through an agent; this changes things significantly. Agents are made uncompetitive by the harbour board which requires them to pay for a bond. That is unfair. If all business was required to be done through an agent, I would support the need for a bond, to which I am inclined. However, agents are made uncompetitive by having to take out a bond. Effectively, they are in competition with the company which also provides the service.

If this section was not included, is there anything to stop a harbour company deciding that it will only do business with agents who are bonded? It seems enabling legislation is not required to give them that authority. I return to issues which we discussed an hour ago, that is, making all reasonable efforts to gain the objectives of the company or to run it as an efficient operation. Is it true that all ships do not do business through agents and may do business directly with harbour boards? If that is the case, requiring agents to carry a bond defeats the purpose. I supported it because I did not want the harbour company itself to be out of pocket and have to bring agents to court. There is absolutely no gain in requiring some people to have their work bonded and letting others cover the risk themselves. It goes against the logic of bonding. While section 11 encourages the harbour companies to be more competitive, this section asks them to do the work of the agents, thereby exposing them to the liability of a non-paying ship. It is illogical to then provide that agents can only provide the service if they are bonded.

The business should be protected, indemnified or bonded. If all work was done through agents I would certainly say they should be bonded and I would, as I have indicated, support that. However we are now in a situation where the harbour boards, whom we are asking to be competitive, are being invited and encouraged to do business without agency and therefore without indemnity, thereby exposing themselves to loss. They are effectively providing a service in competition with the ship agents but the agents are at a disadvantage because they must pay the additional bonding fee. It does not add up. It is both illogical and unfair. It should be all or nothing.

I ask the Minister of State to confirm that harbour companies may act as agents for ships and do not need bonding. Section 14 states quite clearly that the onus is on the harbour authority to collect the dues and surely makes subsection (7) superfluous. It states:

Where default is made in the payment of harbour charges imposed by a company under section 13 (1) the company may, subject to the provisions of this section, detain, pending payment of such charges...

The section goes on to detail, in four and a half pages, the various means at one's disposal to get the charges.

My point is the same as Senator O'Toole's and concerns competitiveness. Ship owners from outside the country will see that the harbour authority can deal with them more cheaply than a ship agent and will not employ the ship agent. Ship agents are very valuable to harbour authorities because they promote and sell the harbour. Senator Ormonde mentioned the phase "a company may require". It should read "shall require". I guarantee that once this is written down in law every harbour company will demand a bond from every agent. They will not single out one agent because he or she does not have a great name but not require other agents to give a bond. In the interest of fair play the harbour company and the ship agent should be on a level playing field. It is as simple as that and I will not waste any more time with it. However, if we do not agree we will put it to a vote.

I too have problems with the enabling phraseology but I am aware that I am speaking from ignorance. I want to ask a few simple questions. What size are these bonds and how much money are we talking about? The scenario envisaged by Senator Fitzgerald and Senator O'Toole is that a harbour authority can be its own agent for practical purposes. If that is the case, it seems unfair that an agent must pay a bond, the size of which is determined by the harbour authority. The legislation provides that the harbour authority will specify the size of the bond and that seems to be an invitation to put a possible rival out of business. I will not engage in pyrotechnics about the place of competition in such matters but it seems to be a strange situation.

I have been asked a number of questions. It is the case that not all port business is routed through agents. It is open to a shipping company to make a direct arrangement with a port for the entry of its ship. However, a substantial part of the business of the larger ports is done through the agents. It is not the port company which engages the agent but the shipping company and it is usually done from abroad. If a shipping company is shipping certain material into this country and wants it received at Dublin port, they may well contact an agent. Many of the shippers have regular agents who do this business for them.

It is not quite the case that the harbour company establishes its own competing agency. It is more that a shipping company can make a direct arrangement with a harbour authority to receive its goods. There is no intention to impose a penalty on ship agents. We are simply trying to protect against default where a shipping company engages an agent, is charged by the port, pays the charges to the agent and the agent does not pay them to the port. The original provision stipulated that the agent was liable entirely for the payment but that is not in this version of the Bill where we are simply talking about a bond or some type of security.

Senator Lee asked about the amount of money involved. There is no limit specified in the section. I am prepared to have another look at this between now and Report Stage with a view to limiting the circumstances. There is a point we can reach where we are not penalising agents, putting them at a competitive disadvantage or creating a situation where port companies can compete with them. However, at the same time I think it is reasonable that there should not be a situation where there is no liability or lien on the agent.

That is fair enough.

I will look at it between now and Report Stage with a view to achieving that balance and taking into account the points of view expressed.

I ask the Minister of State to address the point raised by Senator Lee about the size of the bond. I accept his point that if moneys are transferred from the shipping company to the agent, the agent has a responsibility to pass on those moneys and there must be some vehicle to recover the moneys. The inequality has been raised by other Senators and I will not go into it again but there appears to be a different standard for the agents.

Have any agents defaulted in the past? Is it such a big problem that provision must be made for it in law? As the system has worked well down the years, why are we making an unnecessary stipulation? Why should 98 per cent be penalised because the other 2 per cent defaulted? I am sure that the port authorities are capable of dealing with agents who default. The authority should inform them that they must pay in cash before the next ship they represent is permitted to dock.

Why must this provision be enshrined in law if only 2 per cent have defaulted? It will penalise the 98 per cent of good, hard working agents who are attracting business to our ports and provide a service which the harbour companies will not do. If the harbour companies were obliged to provide that service, an official would have to be paid a large amount of money to do so. The harbour authorities, if they are worth their salt, should be capable of dealing with agents who default.

I believe provision could be made under section 13 to exempt fisheries protection vessels from port charges.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

We are dealing with amendment No. 3. We are not yet dealing with the section.

I thought we had completed our discussion on the amendment. I merely wish to draw the Minister's attention to that point.

Senator Farrell raised an important issue. In the past three to four years legislation has been enacted which appears to penalise 95 per cent of people who do not break the law. The Road Traffic Act is one example of legislation which penalises such people and has no effect on the small percentage of the population who are lawbreakers. As Senator Farrell stated, the same thing is happening in relation to this Bill. I have been informed that slightly over 1 per cent of agents default. Perhaps the Minister has other figures, but that is the figure I was given. In the region of 98 to 99 per cent of people will be penalised for the sake of the 1 per cent who default. This is not correct. I also asked the Minister what will the cost be to the agent and I do not recall receiving an answer.

I agree with Senator Fitzgerald with regard to the people who have been criminalised in the past. I wish he had been so enthusiastic in this regard when the disastrous Road Traffic Bill was before this House and his party was in Government.

Hear, hear.

That would involve bonding of a different kind.

I could not obtain any support for my arguments in relation to that legislation. The Minister has stated that he is prepared to reconsider this matter. It would be incorrect, therefore, to force a vote on the amendment. The question of bonding is a very difficult one. Many groups, organisations and associations are now taking out a common form of protection and perhaps the ship agents association might consider this in relation to liabilities, etc. I am happy to wait until Report Stage to see how the Minister deals with the matter.

I omitted to state that I will also wait until Report Stage. However, I reserve the right to resubmit the deletion in case the Minister does not take the correct action.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

The Senator is entitled to do so.

The Minister did not inform the House as to what percentage of agents defaulted.

In the region of 90 per cent of agents pay in full and on time. There are then some agents who do not always pay on time and a minute percentage who default.

In relation to the question of competition, it is not fair on those agents who pay on time and carry out their business in the correct manner that a small number of agents can use harbour facilities and introduce business which does not pay its way.

That is right.

I am happy to try to discover a formula which limits what we are attempting to do to address such situations. I also take Senator Lee's point that some financial restrictions should be put in place in order that this does not remain open-ended. However, the port companies cannot be left in a position whereby they do not have a means under this legislation to deal with agents who default.

How many Government agencies pay on time? Do the Revenue Commissioners pay tax rebates to taxpayers on time? The Government should put its house in order before the matter of people paying on time is discussed.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

That is not relevant at this time, Senator Farrell.

That is also something which does not change when one Government replaces another.

Is there any way that a list of suitable agents might be drawn up from which those who do not pay on time can be omitted? This happens in the case of auctioneers, for example.

Can the Minister inform the House with regard to the level of fees paid to a port authority by a ship entering port?

It depends on the size of the ship involved. The cost might run to hundreds of pounds or it could be £20,000.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

The name of Senator O'Toole should also appear in relation to amendment No. 4.

I move amendment No. 4:

In page 16, subsection (8), to delete lines 23 to 26 and substitute the following:

"Provided that where the said company provides services or facilities which are utilised by such ships it may recover a fair proportion of the capital and operational costs incurred in providing such services or facilities from the first port company.".

Perhaps it might be better if the Minister offered his response to the amendment. I have been approached by representatives of Waterford and New Ross and I respect both sides of the story. I have listened to their arguments and found them to be very fair people. They are attempting to resolve a difference which exists between them, hence the tabling of this amendment. It would be better if some other means could be found to resolve this issue rather than the House making a decision to do so.

I have moved the amendment, but I will wait to hear the Minister's response before I progress further. However, I understand, from the figures with which I was provided, that if this amendment were made to the Bill, the port authority for New Ross would be obliged to pay £25,000 more than it does at present. I cannot understand why the representatives of New Ross want this amendment to be accepted, given that it will cost them more money. I also cannot understand why the port authority for Waterford is against the amendment, given that it will receive an extra £25,000.

Perhaps this involves something which I am unable to see because Waterford and New Ross are only separated by a short distance, they use the same estuary as far as Cheekpoint and have a good relationship in all things. This is simply a grievance in respect of charges for lights, buoys, etc. I await the Minister's reply.

I support the amendment but I believe that the wording is unsatisfactory. I would prefer if the Minister offered to respond positively to the spirit of the amendment and returned on Report Stage with different wording. However, I support the amendment and will do so if it is put to a vote.

This situation is peculiar to New Ross and Waterford. Ships travelling to the port of New Ross enter waters under which are, or will be, under the control of the Waterford Harbour Authority. They are obliged to pay a fee despite the fact that they are simply passing through. Where is the logic in that? The outer area of the harbour through which the New Ross boats pass must be lit, it has buoys and lights which cost money so there is a logical reason for the people who provide that service seeking some form of payment. My understanding — I am not sure of these figures — is that up to 800 ships per year go to Waterford and 500 go to New Ross, so there is sizeable traffic using each port. Waterford can charge the boats because they have used part of their harbour and the ships going to New Ross are charged twice.

Senator Fitzgerald asked why the Waterford authority is against this amendment and New Ross is in favour? It is a classic case of each authority being worried about the balance of charges. What we are saying is that there should be fair play. There should be a recognition that ships headed for the port of Waterford or New Ross, the outer harbour waters are common. When I suggested that an amendment be put down, I intended both authorities would pay 50 per cent of the costs of providing and maintaining reasonable services in the outer end of the harbour — lights, buoys, etc. and after that, the harbour cost would be paid separately to each harbour authority. There should be a determining authority, a common authority, to deal with issues like this or the Department could provide a mediation service to which the authorities could appeal if they could not agree among themselves. I would trust the Department to do that and, I suspect, although they might not admit it, the authorities at New Ross and Waterford would be happy. The Waterford authority is worried that their costings are based on this additional fee; the New Ross authority is worried that an excessive fee will be charged for ships going to the New Ross port using the Waterford waters.

What we require is fair play; there should be a common approach to boats using common waters. Common waters should reflect a common cost and the harbour charges should be added to it. That is what we intend by the amendment.

Many of the points I wanted to raise have been outlined by Senator O'Toole and Senator Fitzgerald. Will the ships bound for New Ross, which often must anchor at Waterford port, pay twice? That is the key issue. The Waterford authorities accept that if they are hiring equipment or providing a service, such as lighting, they have a right to charge. We are looking for common ground between the two authorities; this is really a matter to be decided outside this Chamber. Since ships must pass through Cheekpoint to get to New Ross and vice versa, it should be easy to sort this one out.

As it stands, I support the amendment but both authorities have right on their side. It is possible to understand each point of view and draw a conclusion acceptable to both sides. This problem is really about charges and it could be easily worked out between the two parties. Both are deserving cases and undertake their respective administrations in a fair way except for this issue. It is important to both parties that they sit and work it out with the Minister to the satisfaction of both sides.

I support the amendment. I will not go back over all the arguments made on Second Stage. One of the difficulties here is that there are two authorities in potential competition with one another. In a certain circumstance it is open for one authority to levy charges which could erode the competitive position of the second authority. That strikes me as being totally undesirable and, coming back to some of the arguments which were made on the earlier part of section 13 where we spoke of the need for competition and equity, it is accepted that if a body installs and maintains lights, etc., it is entitled to recover part or all of the expense incurred. However, the difficulty arises where two authorities share the facility. The potential for inequities are obvious and I need not spell them out. What is needed is a way to make the system equitable.

I agree with Senator O'Toole, if I understand him correctly, on who determines what is a fair proportion. There must be an independent adjudicator. I believe there are potential difficulties if the section is left unamended.

I ask the Minister to respond to my concerns which relate to Foynes and Limerick. At present there are no charges payable by Foynesbound ships from the harbour board located 20 miles further up the estuary. This legislation suggests that Limerick or the new Shannon Estuary Authority can impose fines which have not existed for 100 years. I would be extremely concerned about that because they could levy charges which were uncompetitive and could change the competitiveness of Foynes. I would be even more concerned that a competitive harbour like Foynes should now reveal its cargo, goods and level of passenger traffic to its nearest competitor. That would damage its competitiveness.

These are my difficulties and I want the Minister to address them. I wish to express my concerns because I relate to what Senator Dardis said. A harbour which has developed and has fought a rearguard action for its further development could be presented by something in the Bill which would expose its trading position to its keenest and nearest competitor.

I share the concerns which have been expressed. Without rehashing or repeating the arguments, it seems to be a principle that no harbour should not be allowed impose charges on potential competitors in a unilateral and arbitrary way. There must be some authority in circumstances where this situation can arise, whether in New Ross, Foynes or wherever, which will determine what an equitable relationship involves. The point being made by Senator O'Toole and Senator Dardis is who determines what is a fair proportion? Somebody must be involved in determining that. I believe mediation ought to be involved in hammering out the balance of charges in these circumstances. This Chamber is not equipped professionally to arrive at a fair verdict on these matters but we ought to indicate our concern, and the concerns which have been expressed by the various parties involved, and repose confidence in the capacity of the Department or whoever might be nominated by it to arrive at a fair verdict on these matters.

There has been lengthy debate both on Second Stage and again this evening on this subject and I want to respond comprehensively to it.

Ships bound for New Ross Harbour must pass through part of Waterford Harbour. At present these vessels are charged light dues at the same rate as ships which are proceeding to Waterford. New Ross Harbour Commissioners claim the charges imposed are not related to the cost of providing the lights and the costs are, in their view, excessive making New Ross Port uncompetitive. Waterford, on the other hand, states that the lights of which New Ross ships avail are sea lights and buoys and are, consequently, expensive to install and maintain.

The following proposal put forward by New Ross Harbour Commissioners, at a joint meeting with the Department and Waterford Harbour Commissioners on 6 November 1995, was formally put to Waterford Harbour Commissioners for consideration: (a) in future light contributions should be geared specifically towards the certified annual cost, capital and maintenance and allocated on a tonnage basis; (b) the contribution would not be levied on New Ross ships but would instead be paid on their behalf by New Ross Harbour Commissioners to Waterford Harbour Commissioners; (c) actual costs for 1994 and 1995 could be used as a base; and (d) New Ross would be prepared to pay contributions on a monthly basis and that at the end of each year certified audited light accounts would be prepared so that adjustments could be made for any shortfall or excess.

Waterford Harbour Commissioners did not agree to points (b) and (d) as they operate on the principle that the user pays. If a user defaults on payment, the commissioners can proceed directly against the ship owner and could in extreme circumstances use their powers of arrest. In addition, the commissioners produced statistical and financial data which showed that the light charges imposed were fair and equitable. The statistical and financial data, as produced by Waterford Harbour Commissioners, was made available to New Ross Harbour Commissioners, who disputed the data.

At this stage it became clear to me that we could move backwards and forwards forever more trying to iron out the problem and that each port might continue to be selective in their use of statistics. I support the Waterford principle that the user pays, while on the other hand I agree with New Ross in that there must be equity and transparency on light dues collected and lights expenditure. An effort was made to put an administrative arrangement in place which would provide that Waterford Harbour Commissioners would continue to levy the light dues on the users, that is, the shippers, Waterford Harbour Commissioners would keep separate accounts on all light dues collected and all expenditure incurred in the provision and maintenance of light services, these accounts would be made available to New Ross Harbour Commissioners on an annual basis in arrear and that if any question arose as to the inequity of charges, the accounts would be assessed by an independent financial expert to be nominated by the Department of the Marine. The arrangement was to commence on 1 January 1996. Waterford Harbour Commissioners agreed to the Department's proposal but New Ross rejected it.

The amendment put forward by Senator Norris and Senator Fitzgerald — Senator O'Toole has added his name to it — is seeking an amendment to section 13 (8) of the Harbours Bill which will provide that where services or facilities of another port company are utilised by ships traversing that port company's harbour for the purposes of getting to the ship's port of destination, the charges for such services would be levied on the port of destination and not on the shipper. The amendment, as submitted, is not acceptable. It could have wider implications, for example, for ports such as Foynes, Limerick, Dublin and Dún Laoghaire. The amendment may suit New Ross Harbour Commissioners but it would not necessarily suit the ports of Foynes, Limerick, Dublin and Dún Laoghaire.

Senator Neville referred to the situation in Foynes. When a ship is only traversing or anchoring in the area of another port, it is not charged. The only charges made — and the Bill only provides for this — are in respect of a service, facility or equipment provided by the other port. There is no possibility of charging simply for traversing waters near another port.

I support the principle that the user or shipper should pay. I also support the New Ross view that charges imposed should be fair and equitable and that there should be full transparency on these charges. I understand the concern that one port company might use its position relative to another company to impose uncompetitive charges.

The matter was discussed with a deputation from New Ross Harbour Commissioners today and the outcome of that meeting is that an amendment is now being prepared which I intend to circulate for Report Stage. It will provide that such harbour charges shall be fair and equitable, having regard to all the circumstances. If the first mentioned harbour considers that the charges so raised on ships proceeding to it are not fair and equitable and in the absence of agreement on these matters with the company raising the charges, the matter shall, if so required by either company, be determined by an independent arbitrator nominated by the Minister. This amendment, which I believe will meet the concerns of New Ross Harbour Commissioners, will be brought forward on Report Stage.

I accept entirely the point that it is not possible to legislate for what one port can charge to another in the primary legislation. Ideally, these matters should be agreed between the ports concerned. It is not our intention that the legislation should facilitate any harbour to use a dominant position to impose unfair charges on the other. Charges imposed for any service should be fair and equitable. Ideally, the two ports concerned should come to an arrangement with regard to the charging for facilities. When that cannot be agreed to between the ports, I propose to introduce a provision on Report Stage which will provide a procedure where the issue can be arbitrated.

The Minister is to be commended for the flexibility he has shown on this matter and he has done a good day's work. Are both harbour authorities in agreement with what the Minister proposed today?

In my opinion.

I cannot speak for either harbours, but ideally we would like the two ports concerned to agree these matters between them. If they cannot agree, we will put into the legislation a provision where a disputed situation can be arbitrated. For example, if New Ross feels that Waterford is imposing excessive charges, it can appeal to the Minister who will appoint an arbitrator. Similarly, if Waterford feels New Ross is holding out and is trying to pay less than what it is costing Waterford to provide these services, it can have the matter arbitrated.

I compliment the Minister for his patience in trying to sort this matter out. The conclusion reached is the best we can get in the circumstances. The Minister has a great grasp of how to get at the root of this problem. Hopefully, this measure will work and the provision of an arbitrator is the best solution.

I also commend the Minister for his approach to this issue. I hope what he said about maintaining the status quo arrangement in Foynes and the Shannon Estuary will continue. Can the Minister comment on the competitiveness implications of informing another harbour about the passenger and goods levels going through a harbour?

I appreciate what the Minister and his officials have done. Since the Minister will bring this proposed amendment forward on Report Stage, we will not delay matters any longer except to thank all concerned. However, we will keep our options open on Report Stage to ensure the Minister has fulfilled his promise.

I will not be pushing the amendment either. There should be more trade union negotiators running ministries.

There should be more trade union negotiators running trade unions as well.

And universities.

I compliment the Minister. He has been constructive and sensible. It is preposterous that this should become a party issue in this Chamber. I hope the message goes out to all those involved of the strong sympathy here for the direction the Minister proposes to take.

I thank Members for their generous comments. Senator Neville raised what appears to be a trick question. No matter what answer I give I will fall into some pit.

The answer is "maybe".

The principles are clearly set down in the Bill. Where services are being provided, there will be a charge. Where they are not provided, then it is not intended that there would be charge. The matter of information and intelligence as to what one port is doing relative to another is probably best left to the ports concerned.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Question proposed: "That section 13 stand part of the Bill."

What is the necessity for subsection (3)? Does the section cover the use of vessels other than ships? The Minister will be aware that there has been, and there is intended to be, an expanded offshore oil and exploration effort, especially this summer, with the possibility of fairly large scale oil rigs coming into estuaries such as Cork harbour and the Shannon Estuary. Given all the charges placed on ships, will there be charges for oil rigs in operation off the west coast and which may be located in estuaries for possible servicing or whatever?

Under subsection (1) (a) (ii), rates may be determined on the owner of a ship which: "uses any quay, anchorage or mooring in its harbour...". If there is anchorage in the waters under the jurisdiction of another harbour board, will the Minister confirm that there would not be charges for such and that it only applies while the ship is located in harbour?

Subsection (8) states that "this subsection will not prevent the said company from imposing harbour charges in respect of any services it performs". Will the Minister confirm that this does not negate any statement he has already made to the effect that anchorage in another jurisdiction is not charged under the section?

Under subsection (2) (a), a company concerned must provide a certificate of tonnage in respect of a ship "...as is specified by the company and such other documentation in relation to the ship or the goods thereon as may be specified by it.". This suggests that where two harbours are in competition and one harbour has to use the waters of another harbour, the harbours concerned would have to supply details of confidential information as to what they are trading in. From the Minister's previous statement, I gather this is not the case. Will he confirm this? It would be unfair, for example, if New Ross had to inform Waterford of all its tonnage and passengers and if Foynes had to inform Limerick, and now the Shannon Estuary Authority, likewise.

With regard to the naval ships using the waters——

The navy on the opposite side sailed away.

The question was put that fishery protection vessels should not have to pay charges. Will the Minister clarify that there is no such provision in the Bill? Such a provision would be unfair on harbour authorities or harbour companies, whom we are requiring to be competitive. Naval vessels should be subject to the same charges as others unless there is a compelling reason otherwise.

With regard to competition between ports, is Senator Neville suggesting that ports would be able to hide their tonnage and profits? I understood that one of the reasons for the Bill is to provide for openness in competition. At the end of every year every port would have to produce details of its tonnage, profits and competitiveness. What does the Senator mean by suggesting that, for example, the port of Foynes should not have to declare the tonnage going through its port as against Limerick, or, say, New Ross as against Waterford?

I am not referring to declarations of tonnages but details as to cargo and so on. If a harbour board is developing the importation or exportation of a product and has objectives in this regard, then it must reveal details of the goods on the first occasion they are brought into the port to its nearest neighbour with whom it is in competition. Given this, the neighbour can also become involved. I do not have a problem with tonnage levels, but with details of cargoes.

I am not sure where the Senator is coming from.

From Foynes.

We are addressing competitiveness. Is the Senator suggesting, for example, that Foynes should have to tell Limerick beforehand that it is bringing in a ship with a certain tonnage and cargo? We are concerned with the competitiveness between the various ports, but surely this does not mean that, for example, New Ross has to tell Foynes or vice versa what ship might be coming in and at what rate and tonnage?

The master of the ship must do this before the ship comes in.

Are some of these issues not matters of public record? I recall when I was growing up being fascinated by lists in the newspapers of every vessel docked in the port, what it was carrying and so on. This was in the good old days of sailing ships, before steam. There were such lists in the newspapers. I do not know what the fuss is about.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

I call on the Minister to reply.

He is on his own.

With regard to the question raised by Senator Neville, Senator Dardis is correct in that much of this is a matter of public record. Senator Neville refers to ports like Dún Laoghaire, New Ross or Foynes, which are the three ports where vessels must traverse the jurisdiction of another port in order to enter. He decribes how somehow we could have ships coming in with material on them but that the port whose waters they were traversing would not have the right to ask what material was on board and in what quantity. I could envisage a ship coming up the Shannon Estuary with dangerous cargo on board.

A load of cannabis.

While in the Shannon Estuary and until it enters the revised jurisdiction of Foynes, it is under the control of Limerick and Limerick——

There could be piracy at Tarbert.

The Minister is concerned with the south western view of transparency.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

The Minister without interruption, please.

In the interests of safety, information on the nature of cargo and so on would have to be made known.

Subsection (3) deals with the different rates of harbour charges which may be imposed by a port company in different circumstances. A lo-lo container ship which makes daily calls to a port may be charged a different rate to the rate levied on a lo-lo ship which only calls weekly to a port. The section also empowers port companies to enter into agreements with users in relation to harbour charges. A particular port user, for example, may enter into agreement with the port company to contribute by way of paying harbour charges in advance to port development works being carried out by the port company and the port company for its part might agree not to levy any charges on that particular user or to charge at a reduced rate for a period of, perhaps, three months after the advanced payment period has expired.

I thank the Minister and my colleagues for making a clear case for the control of the jurisdiction of the Shannon from Foynes to the estuary.

I am not sure if the Minister responded to the question about oil rigs or gas exploration rigs which are extremely big. I am not sure they could be described as ships.

Oil and gas exploration rigs are governed by legislation from the Department of Transport, Energy and Communications.

What about charges for the use of an estuary by such rigs? That is very likely given the expanded exploration effort which is already planned. It might mean that big installations will be berthed in estuaries such as the Shannon and under this legislation neither authority would have the power to charge them since this is confined to ships.

Could they be towed in to land or should they be dumped at sea?

Marine activity associated with oil and exploration rigs include the use of service vessels which will pay for whatever service is provided. Senator Daly appears to be talking about an oil rig that is operating within the jurisdiction of the——

Or berthed there.

If it is berthed there and a service is being provided by the port company, there is no reason the port company would not charge for that service. That is provided for.

The Minister has differentiated in other sections of the Bill between ships and other vehicles. In my opinion it is necessary to expand this section to cover the eventuality of an expanded exploration business — I am talking about the west coast — as there is likely to be much activity which would not be liable for charges.

I am glad Senator Neville got a clear explanation about the Shannon Estuary. What role does the Minister have when an industry is being attracted to the estuary? Can he make a deal with a company about paying harbour fees before an application is put before the relevant port company? When Alcan was being encouraged to locate on the River Shannon it was told in advance that it would not have to pay harbour dues. That was one of the carrots offered by the IDA to entice the company to locate there. I was a harbour commissioner at the time and I had to tell the company that it was not so but the harbour commissioners had to give the company a reduced rate to attract it. Is there clarification of such a situation in the Bill?

The Bill is quite clear; a harbour company may charge for the provision of services. Nobody has the right to set that aside, whether it be the IDA or anybody else. It is provided for in the Bill. Senator Burke, for example, raised the question of State vessels, such as fishery protection vessels or Naval Service vessels and so forth, using such services. They will be liable for charges. There is no justification for harbour companies, which are set up and given a mandate under this legislation, to subsidise either the fishery protection service or any other State service. The State services concerned will pay their charges like everybody else. It will be a matter for the port companies to work out that arrangement. If a service is provided, whether it is to an oil rig, an industry or a fishery protection vessel, the port companies may charge for that service. That is in the legislation.

If the IDA brings an industrialist to locate on the Shannon, for example, can it say as part of the package that the company need not pay harbour dues? Who will compensate the port company when they have made the deal? This has happened in the past.

No matter what they say, the port company will be able to impose charges. It is the same as if, hypothetically, it said that the company would not have any difficulty with planning permission. The county council and An Bord Pleanála might have different views on that. Similarly, if they said the company would not have any difficulty with wage rates, the trade unions representing the employees might have a different view. The harbour company will be able to impose charges irrespective of what promises or inducements are offered by anybody.

This section applies to ships and ships only. In section 52 the Minister refers to vehicles and other conveyances. He distinguishes between ships and vehicles in that section but he has not done so in this section so this section can only apply to ships. If an oil rig comes into the estuary for six weeks the harbour commissioners cannot charge it because this section applies only to ships.

The harbour company may charge for any service it provides.

On ships.

Not exclusively on ships. In fact, the service need not be on water at all. The harbour company can charge for a service it is providing on land. If an oil rig is towed into a harbour for whatever reason, the harbour company may charge for whatever services are provided.

I do not see it written down here.

It is not explicitly written down——

The Minister has written down nearly everything else.

——but the Bill allows for that. We have not written into the Bill every type of service that might be provided by a harbour company.

I have no doubt about the intent and interpretation of the Bill. Section 12 (1) (c) provides: "It shall be the general duty of a company... to regulate operations within its harbour". Section 13 (1) (d) provides that the company may charge "a person for whom any service or facility is performed or provided by it or to whom it hires any equipment". Another section specifies that it applies to more than ships. I have no doubt that the harbour company can charge for any service it provides anywhere within its jurisdiction.

Question put and agreed to.
Section 14 agreed to.
SECTION 15.
Government amendment No. 5:
In page 19, subsection (2), line 28, to delete "that" and substitute "than".

This is a technical amendment to correct a typographical error.

Amendment agreed to.

I move amendment No. 6:

In page 20, subsection (4) (b), lines 3 and 4, to delete "an appropriately qualified independent person" and substitute "three appropriately qualified independent persons".

We are not dealing with £100 or £200; we are trying to sell or buy a piece of property for a couple of million pounds, as would be the case in Dublin. If there had been three independent qualified persons in the past, some of the things which happened in companies might not have occured. It is a regular practice that county councils, even when small amounts of land are being bought, sold or leased, consult three independent qualified persons. Each gives a valuation of the property and the average of the three valuations is taken as its value. This is the fairest way. One independent valuer can be influenced but it is impossible to influence three of them.

The matter of sales, leasing and acquisition of property was debated at length on Committee Stage and the outcome of this debate is to be seen in section 15. There has been much talk recently about transparency in semi-State companies. I firmly believe this Bill advocates transparency as far as the new port companies are concerned. In accordance with section 28, details of all property disposals and acquisitions must be outlined to the Minister at the end of each year in the chairman's report. This report must also outline any acquisitions or sales which are proposed for the following year. The companies are furthermore obliged to have regard to any Government policy or guidelines on the acquisition of land by State enterprises which exist at the time in question.

If in the unlikely situation that there is some doubt about a land transaction by a company, the Minister, under section 44, has maintained the right to issue directions of a general kind on such matters. I, therefore, feel that all has been done to ensure full accountability in the matter of land arrangements.

I fear that many problems will arise from the amendment if it is accepted. Many of the land transactions of port companies could be of a minor nature and it could prove very costly if a company which was proposing to acquire a plot of half acre had to obtain three valuations. Under the section valuation is to be carried out by an independent person. If we are to let our harbours become commercial, we must also place trust in them that they will carry out their operations as transparently as possible.

The amendment relates only to the acquisition of land; the sale of land is dealt with elsewhere in the section. The Senator is proposing to amend solely the provision on the acquisition of land. If a port company is attempting to acquire a piece of land, there is a provision that an independent valuation must be obtained. If a port company has to acquire land quickly, a requirement to obtain three independent valuations might put that company at a disadvantage.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Section 15, as amended, agreed to.
SECTION 16.
Question proposed: "That section 16 stand part of the Bill."

Are the compulsory acquisition powers provided in this section the same as the compulsory acquisition powers of local authorities?

Generally, yes. These powers are modelled on the compulsory acquisition powers other semi-State companies, such as Telecom Éireann, have.

Question put and agreed to.
SECTION 17.
Question proposed: "That section 17 stand part of the Bill."

The remuneration of directors is to be a matter for discussion between the Minister for the Marine and the Minister for Finance. Can the Minister give any indication of his view on such remuneration? Subsection (3) (f) deals with staff negotiations. Are there procedures for arbitration in the event of no agreement being reached between boards and trade unions?

The levels of directors' fees will vary depending on the size of the port company. It is envisaged that the fees paid by a small company like the one in Wicklow will probably be in hundreds of pounds whereas a larger company like the one in Dublin will pay larger fees. It is intended that fees will be modest.

Being a director is an onerous task. In the new role which boards will have, the work of directors will be involved and detailed. Within reason they should be provided with a decent remuneration. We will not have any opportunity to discuss these fees.

What does the Minister mean by saying the remuneration of directors will be modest? Why should the remuneration of directors of semi-State and other companies be modest if their job is to bring these companies into the commercial world? Is the Minister suggesting that out of the goodness of their hearts they should accept a modest remuneration because they are appointed by the State or should they receive the same level of payments they would receive in other companies?

There is considerable precedent in the semi-State sector for the levels of fees paid to directors and these vary from company to company depending on size. The level of fees paid to directors of State companies are generally less than the corresponding level of fees paid to directors of private companies of the same size. This has been the practice for some time. The intention is that directors of port companies will be paid fees in line with those paid to directors of other State companies of similar size. It is not intended that directors of port companies will be paid large fees. The fees will be fair and reasonable but nobody will get rich by being a director of one of these companies.

The Minister suggested that people will act as directors of these companies for fees which are not commensurate with their abilities or with the fees they might receive in similar positions in the commercial field. Why should they be paid what the Minister considers a minimum scale? Why should they not be paid fees commensurate with the abilities they will bring to the companies? If the Minister does not do this he will be telling these people they will be given a bonus because they are now directors of semi-State companies. If we want this area to become commercial we should pay these people a sum commensurate with their ability, as other commercial companies do.

Senator Lanigan and Senator Daly raised valid points, but not in this context because the Bill deals with existing semi-State practices, principles and procedures. It would not be appropriate to try to gauge the proper remuneration for directors of these companies. The level of emolument paid to directors of State companies is ridiculously low. In some cases it means there is a compensating factor such as the perks of free travel on Aer Lingus or CIE, although not always by rail. That is not a good thing. It would be better if emoluments and perks for those on State boards were clearly stated. They should be greater than they are at present. However, it is not fair to ask the Minister in the context of this legislation, which is putting these companies in the State sector, to bring in changes which would put them outside existing State practice. It would be more important to change existing State practice.

I accept what the Leader has said, but this is an opportunity to redress what happened in the past. We are now creating new semi-State bodies; therefore, we should adapt to the new situation. Why not pay the directors a salary commensurate with the job the Minister wants them to do? It is time these people were paid a proper salary so that if they do not do their job properly, they can be removed. The Minister is suggesting that they will not be paid commensurate with the job they will do but that they will be given a fee equal to what semi-State directors have received in the past. People will not work under such circumstances in the future.

I would not like Senator Manning to misconstrue what we are saying. We are not putting pressure on the Minister to make a decision on the rates here this evening. I am sure he has thought about this during the preparation of the legislation. We want some indication of his frame of mind because we do not want to pay exorbitant rates. However, we would like to see decent remuneration for the work people must do. The Minister is right that some boards will have a lot of work to do, such as Dublin port, Cork, Shannon and other small ones. Perhaps he could indicate what he considers to be a reasonable rate.

I was embarrassed at one time to have to ask a chairman of a semi-State body to take up a responsibility, given the amount of money being offered. He laughed at me. He did a successful job, but the remuneration was a joke. We should have some input into what is being decided. There is no appeals mechanism if agreement cannot be reached between the Minister and the directors, who have no representation. This issue will be handled by appointment. We should have some indication of what the rates are likely to be.

What mechanism will be put in place for staff negotiations with the companies? Will staff be transferred to the new boards with existing rates of remuneration? This could be difficult in some cases because some staff will be transferring to more onerous responsibilities than they had under the old authorities. This section does not deal with disagreements between the boards and the staff or on how they will be finally resolved. Perhaps the Minister could clarity this I do not want the Minister to think we are putting him on a spot about remuneration. We only want to hear his views on this issue.

Section 17 deals with what will be in the articles of association of the companies. The level of directors' fees is not being set down per se in the legislation. It states that the levels will be determined by the Minister in conjunction with the Minister for Finance. It is fair to establish the thinking on what these levels should be. I have indicated that the thinking is in line with the established norms which exist in the semi-State sector. A number of factors must be taken into account, such as the norms in the semi-State sector and the size of the different port companies. The amount of work involved in a small company compared to those in Dublin and Cork will be different. Another factor is the capacity of the companies concerned to pay directors' fees and what level they should be, particularly in the early stages when some companies will be turning the corner to profitability.

As Senator Manning said, perhaps this debate requires a more general discussion of the levels of directors' fees in semi-State companies as opposed to those in the private sector. However, many people appointed as directors of semi-State companies do not accept the appointment for the fees they are paid or for the perks they may get. Many people accept appointments because they are committed to what is being done.

Considerable interest has been expressed in many quarters by those who wish to be directors of the new port companies.

They are working for other port companies.

The fact that it has been known for some time that the level of directors' fees would not involve huge largesse is not reflected in the level of interest expressed in these appointments. We are talking about people of considerable calibre. I do not doubt that people of good calibre will be appointed to the boards of the companies. The levels of fees they are paid must be determined.

Senator Daly mentioned the negotiations between trade unions and staff. The articles of association provide that the "company shall consult with any recognised trade union or staff association concerned for the purposes of negotiations". In other words, it is stitching into the articles of association the principles of trade union recognition, consultation about pay and conditions and the requirement for agreement on these matters. Provisions are made in other sections of the Bill which protect the position of existing staff of harbour boards and ensure that their pay and conditions cannot be worsened as a result of their transfer to the new port companies. They hold the arrangements they have going into the new port companies.

As it is now 8 o'clock, I would ask Senator Daly to report progress.

Our Members are not happy with the section.

I am not putting the question. I am asking Senator Daly to report progress.

In the interests of finalising this section, a Chathaoirligh, you could give another moment or two with the agreement of the House.

By all means.

What is the purpose of subsection (4) referring to Dún Laoghaire?

Staff who are currently employed at Dún Laoghaire harbour are civil servants. They are employed by the Department of the Marine, which has a particular mechanism for dealing with their pay and conditions. They will be moving into a semi-State company situation where different mechanisms may apply. Subsection (4) provides that the company will have to consult with trade unions and staff associations in order to set up machinery for purposes of negotiation. It is effectively to provide negotiating machinery in a situation where staff are moving out of the departmental regime into a semi-State company regime.

While we will not oppose the section we want to reserve the right to table an amendment on Report Stage.

Question put and agreed to.
Progress reported; Committee to sit again.

When is it proposed to sit again?

It is proposed to sit again tomorrow at 10.30 a.m. For the information of Members, it is proposed to resume Committee Stage at 4 p.m. tomorrow.

Is that agreed? Agreed.

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