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Seanad Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 14 Feb 1996

Vol. 146 No. 5

Johnstown Castle Agricultural College (Amendment) Bill, 1996: Second Stage.

Question proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

I am pleased to bring this Bill before the Seanad. Its primary purpose is to make provision for the Environmental Protection Agency to establish its permanent headquarters on a site in Johnstown Estate, County Wexford. The estate is currently vested in Teagasc but under existing legislation a site cannot be sold or leased to the Environmental Protection Agency. The Bill proposes to amend the legislation governing the use of the estate in order to give Teagasc the necessary power to lease a site to the agency.

When the Government decision to locate the headquarters of the Environmental Protection Agency in Wexford was announced in July 1992, Johnstown Castle became the focus of attention. The possibility of using the castle was considered by the Government but following a detailed survey of the building by the Office of Public Works in 1993 it became clear that its internal dimensions would not accommodate the intended headquarters. The five directors of the agency and up to 80 staff will be based in this new headquarters, but the castle would accommodate no more than 50 people. Having reviewed the alternatives, the Government decided that new purpose-built accommodation on a site in Johnstown Estate would be the best option for the agency's new headquarters.

Johnstown Estate is situated about four miles south-west of Wexford town. It comprises the fine 19th century Gothic revival castle and a demesne of approximately 1,000 acres of land, including ornamental grounds, gardens, lakes and woodland. The estate, as we know it today, remained in private ownership up to 1944 when the then owners — Dorothy Violet Jefferies and Maurice Victor Lakin — made a generous gift of it to the nation. The agreement under which the gift was accepted is incorporated in the Johnstown Castle Agricultural College Act, 1945. The property was to be used as a lay agricultural college, the ornamental nature of the gardens and pleasure grounds was not to be altered, ornamental timber was not to be felled and sporting rights and rights of way were reserved to the donors and their heirs.

In 1959, amending legislation was enacted to transfer ownership of the entire estate from the Minister for Agriculture to An Foras Talúntais and to extend its use as a lay agricultural college to include the conduct of agricultural research. The Johnstown Castle Agricultural College (Amendment) Act, 1959, also included a provision which precluded An Foras Talúntais from disposing of any part of the estate and introduced additional caveats regarding any proposed alteration, demolition or construction works in or around the castle. During the 1970s it was recognised that this absolute statutory prohibition on any disposal had proved to be unduly restrictive and that no response could be made by An Foras Talúntais to locally desirable initiatives.

The Johnstown Castle Agricultural College (Amendment) Act, 1980, made provision for the disposal by An Foras Talúntais of a number of small, designated areas of land to meet requests from various local interests, including Wexford County Council. It also included a general provision for the leasing of part of the estate by the State. However, this general provision does not permit the leasing of a site to the Environmental Protection Agency nor can a valid sub-lease be provided from the State. Remaining areas from the land designated for disposal under the Act are not suitable for purposes of the agency headquarters.

In 1988 An Foras Talúntais was dissolved and Teagasc was established. Under the provisions of the Agriculture (Research, Training and Advice) Act, 1988, ownership of the Johnstown Estate transferred to Teagasc, subject to the same conditions of use and limitations on disposal. The estate is currently used by Teagasc as a research and development centre specialising in soils and environmental research. The environmental programme at Johnstown is concerned with the creation of a scientific and technical basis for good farm practice and is aimed at the protection and sustainable management of soil and water, two of our key natural resources. The work carried out by Teagasc at Johnstown and the functions of the Environmental Protection Agency will complement each other and confirm Johnstown as a centre of environmental and agricultural excellence.

The Bill which is now before this House is simple and straightforward. It provides that the existing use of the estate may be extended to enable Teagasc to lease a site to the Environmental Protection Agency and to dispose of a limited area for use for environmental, heritage, amenity or recreational purposes. It also eases the restriction on Teagasc with regard to disposal of land under section 27 of the Agriculture (Research, Training and Advice) Act, 1988, to enable the extended uses to be undertaken. In preparing the legislation, the Attorney General has carefully considered the legal issues arising from the special status of Johnstown Estate and the special status afforded to it under various Acts of the Oireachtas since 1945. Both original donors are now dead, but I have notified the legal representatives of their heirs of the proposals now before this House which the Government has approved.

I confirm to this House that the rights reserved to the donors in perpetuity in the original agreement, that is, the sporting rights and rights of way, have been recognised from the outset in preparing my proposals. These rights, and the additional caveats to which I have already referred, will be respected by Teagasc in any proposed sale or lease of part of the estate under the provisions of the Bill. I have assured the legal representatives of the donors' heirs that they will be consulted in appropriate cases.

Johnstown Estate is a prestigious setting with a good environmental image. Everyone who visits it cannot help but be impressed. The location of the headquarters of the Environmental Protection Agency at this site will underpin the status of the agency as the national guardian of our environment. The enactment of the Environmental Protection Agency Act, 1992, and the establishment of the agency in July 1993 are widely recognised as milestones in the development of our environmental management and protection capabilities.

A progressive build up of its resources has ensured that after just two and a half years in existence it is fully operational in terms of the range of functions assigned to it under the 1992 Act. This year the agency's overall budget will total almost £8 million. It will intensify its integrated pollution control licensing function, publish its first comprehensive state of the environment report and take on substantial new functions under the Waste Management Bill, 1995, when enacted. I look forward to returning to this House tomorrow to discuss Committee Stage of that Bill. In addition, the agency is increasingly active in the monitoring of environmental quality, advising on environmental issues and sound practices, co-ordination of environmental research and supervision of the performance by local authorities of their environmental protection functions.

There are now regional environmental units of the Environmental Protection Agency in Castlebar, Cork, Dublin, Kilkenny and Monaghan. It is time to reinforce the overall development of this important organisation by establishing the permanent headquarters in Wexford. There is a strong association between the county and the agency, which has operated from temporary accommodation in Ardcavan since 1994. I am satisfied that this Bill will enable the right decision to be made on the agency's permanent location.

As I have said already, I am taking the opportunity presented by the Bill to propose a new provision to ease the statutory prohibition on the disposal of any part of the estate which was introduced in 1959. The limited disposal provision which was made in the 1980 Amendment Act worked well in terms of a number of specific initiatives and requirements which were known when the legislation was being drafted. However, other than by way of lease to the estate, the existing provisions lack flexibility; there is no basis upon which Teagasc can accommodate locally desirable activities and proposals with the result that the estate is effectively isolated from the local community. This state of affairs is known to local representatives, such as Senator D'Arcy. They are aware of the demands from local community based groups on the Johnstown Estate which would be of great benefit to the community. Teagasc has received requests from local interests for limited access to land in Johnstown but, under existing legislation, it has had no option but to refuse.

To overcome this situation, a modest, more general disposal provision has been included in this Bill so it will not be necessary to specify the details on what is socially desirable locally. This is purely an enabling measure and it will be a matter for Teagasc to determine individual cases. Disposals under the proposed provision will be restricted to environmental, heritage, recreational or amenity uses and will be subject to an overall threshold of 5 per cent of the area of the estate at the commencement of the legislation. In addition to these specific conditions, Teagasc is required, under the Agriculture (Research, Training and Advice) Act, 1988, to obtain the approval of the Minister for Agriculture, Food and Forestry for all disposals of land and this requirement will apply to any disposals at Johnstown under the provision now proposed.

Enactment of this Bill will be important for the Environmental Protection Agency, Johnstown Estate and its future and the people of Wexford. The existing and new uses will complement each other and enhance the standing of the estate nationally, locally and internationally.

I commend the Bill to the House.

I welcome the Minister and assure him that this side of the House welcomes this enabling legislation. It is important because it continues the successful decentralisation programme initiated some years ago. It is appropriate that the headquarters of the Environmental Protection Agency should be in an area which is conducive to observing both the value of a good environment and the need to protect what is exceptionally good in the environment which has been handed down to us.

We should not let the occasion pass without taking the opportunity to thank the people who left this estate to the nation, Dorothy Violet Jefferies and Maurice Victor Lakin. I presume these people were Anglo-Irish, or maybe they had no Irish connection. Mount Congreve in Waterford and the Bourne and Vincent estate in Killarney have been left to the State; an American left the beautiful Glenveagh Castle to the State and nearby an English artist named Hill left his estate to the nation and the Ormonde family, an Anglo-Irish family, sold Kilkenny Castle and its grounds to the State for the princely sum of £50. In each of these instances we see the fantastic value the State is garnering from people who, in the past, may have been perceived as unfriendly to the generality of Irish people.

It is unfortunate that many of our estates were broken up and many of the big houses were devastated. Sometimes absentee landlords did not bother to maintain their estates and many of these places were burned down during the Civil War. They are an important element in the Irish environment and play a major part in the continuum in this area. I place on record the thanks of the nation to the people who handed over Johnstown Castle estate to the nation.

I have been familiar with Johnstown Castle for many years, having gone to school in St. Peter's in Wexford for a short time. When we escaped from St. Peter's, occasionally we were sent on a crocodile walk to Johnstown Castle. If a person was fast enough he could get ahead of the crocodile and into a local shop to buy a slab of toffee, a bottle of lemonade or a packet of biscuits before the prefect caught up with him. If the prefect did catch up, one was not let out the next day. Even as a child, one would have seen that the castle and its surrounding lands could be of immense value to the nation. In the early 1950s the house was not open to the public but people could walk around the grounds which were in bad condition. When the estate was taken over by the State people brought their children on holiday visits there and they could see the enormous value that was put into the estate by An Foras Talúntais.

The expertise in soil management and other areas has been of inestimable value to farmers all over the country. The original legislation set up an agricultural college in the mid-1940s and I am glad that role will continue and the fine work that has been done by Teagasc. Everyone involved in the research and development work there over the years deserves to be complimented. That work contributed greatly to the added value farmers get from their land.

No one doubts that the transfer of land to the Environmental Protection Agency under a leasing agreement is an excellent idea. However, I am worried that accommodation in the castle will not be sufficient for the numbers of people to be employed there. As only 50 Environmental Protection Agency staff can be accommodated in the castle the Minister will add extra buildings. The standard of these buildings must be in keeping with the standard of the castle and its existing outbuildings. I presume the Minister for Finance would love to stick a few Portakabins around the place and pretend that people are being adequately accommodated. That would be easy.

The Minister for Finance is an architect.

That does not mean he has the best interests of those who might wish to work in Johnstown Castle at heart. He might have his architectural hat on sometimes, but when it comes to financial matters I am afraid the hat might go out the door fairly quickly. Since Johnstown Castle is in the Minister's constituency, I hope cognisance will be given to the architectural value of the area.

As well as being a beautiful place to visit, it is exceptional as a headquarters for the Environmental Protection Agency. An equally good place could probably have been obtained in Kilkenny but we will not argue about that since Wexford has not had too much joy on various fields of play over the past number of years. We cannot say that we will give them the Environmental Protection Agency instead of the All Ireland hurling trophy; some people there might prefer to have the Liam McCarthy Cup but it will be a long time before that happens. Some of the civil servants moving down next year will probably be retired before Wexford gets another All Ireland title.

It has been stated that up to 5 per cent of the land at Johnstown Castle can be acquired by local people or others involved in recreational or environmental activities. The Minister should, therefore, take control of selling off parts of the land. If the Minister for Finance sees that 5 per cent can be sold for a huge amount, he may decide the money is more important than the objectives stated in this Bill. As I said, this is place for recreation as well as business.

It is for St. Martin's to train a few hurlers to beat County Kilkenny.

Under the previous legislation, it will not be able to cut down the ash trees.

We should be careful about the disposal of that 5 per cent. Unless we make an environmentally friendly decision, that 5 per cent could be chopped off one end of the castle property and it could distort the entire area. The Minister should look carefully at how we build the headquarters. I welcome this Bill which I am sure will pass speedily through the House.

Although I am spokesperson for Agriculture, it is appropriate that I am here to deal with this Bill which relates to County Wexford. I join with Senator Lanigan in thanking the Fitzgerald family for this great gift to the State. The Minister said that there are 1,000 acres in Johnstown Castle, but there are approximately 2,000. At the time, the castle was a very appropriate gift to the State because in the 1940s there was a need for agricultural education. The Minister and I will recall all the demonstrations given in Johnstown Castle through the years. Improvements in agriculture are due to the practical and theoretical knowledge imparted in that castle. I attended numerous classes in the castle. At a time when there was a food shortage not only in Ireland but throughout Europe the contribution of Johnstown Castle to farmers in terms of expertise can never be assessed.

We have reached a stage where things are different. I recall the important research into the milk sector. We had 600 gallon cows which were built up to 1,000 gallon cows. The same improvements were brought about in the case of cereals and, to a lesser degree, beef production. Johnstown Castle had three beef units and the amount of knowledge imparted and research done were considerable. Farmers now have different systems and we must keep up with European standards. We are now being asked to produced the 2,000 gallon cows. Some of the practical research done at Johnstown Castle would be very useful today.

It is important that we protect our environment. I understand that once this Bill is passed we can get on with the work. I assure the Minister it will not be delayed in this House because we are eager to see the Bill passed. Decentralisation to rural areas is very important. As Senator Lanigan said, County Wexford has never benefited in this regard. Many Members work in Dublin. Senator Lanigan and I are based in Dublin for three days per week and the Minister is here for five days. Many people talk about decentralisation but do not practice it. Farming and other organisations have their headquarters in Dublin. This issue should be given more consideration.

The siting of the Environmental Protection Agency in County Wexford will be very beneficial to the area. There are further proposals to transfer 300 staff from the Department of Agriculture, Food and Forestry to Wexford. We will accept 600 staff because we have plenty of room for them.

There is plenty of room in Kilkenny for the rest.

County Kilkenny and County Carlow cannot complain because they gained much under the regionalisation programme. County Wexford does not have a college or regional hospital. Were it not for the fact that Brendan Corish served as Minister for Health in the early 1970s there would be no county hospital in Wexford. I thank him for ensuring that Wexford now has a county hospital.

Decentralisation and regionalisation are important to rural areas. I sincerely thank the Minister for siting the Environmental Protection Agency headquarters in County Wexford. I have no doubt that the Environmental Protection Agency will grow in the future. Many of us are members of county councils and see the damage which can be done to the environment. We know the people responsible for that damage, some of them in high places, but we will not name them. In certain instances, they do not seem to care about the environment. I am pleased that the local economy will gain dramatically from the decentralisation of the Department of Agriculture, Food and Forestry to Johnstown Castle.

This is an enabling Bill and I assume it will not be necessary to return with it to either House. Can the construction of headquarters for 350 staff members of the Department of Agriculture, Food and Forestry at Johnstown Castle proceed?

No problem.

I am glad to hear it. The Minister stated:

I confirm to this House that the rights reserved to the donors in perpetuity in the original agreement, that is, the sporting rights and rights of way, have been recognised from the outset in preparing my proposals.

The donors of the castle were very generous. The State and the people of County Wexford owe them a great debt. I hope there will be no attempt to interfere with any of their rights. I would like the Minister to guarantee that those rights will be preserved at all costs.

I am very familiar with Johnstown Castle and have visited it on numerous occasions. At the conclusion of his speech the Minister stated:

However, other than by way of lease to the State, the existing provisions lack flexibility; there is no basis upon which Teagasc can accommodate locally desirable activities and proposals, with the result that the estate is effectively isolated from the local community. I know that Teagasc has received requests from local interests for limited access to land in Johnstown but, under existing legislation, it has had no option but to refuse.

In 1980 I was a Member of the Lower House and also a Minister of State. Wexford County Council was attempting to, but could not, acquire land for housing in the area. A Bill had to be put through the Oireachtas as a result.

That is correct.

Something should have been done at that time to ensure that we need not go backward and forward to both Houses to obtain enabling legislation and make provisions. A lengthy debate took place at the time and the Government had to approach the donors in France to obtain their permission for what was proposed. St. Martin's GAA Club recently requested that the county council provide it with accommodation on the estate. However, the county council was unable to do so. St. Martin's requested the use of two to three acres, as did the local parish priest. The estate is made up of approximately 2,000 acres and there is great local demand for some type of accommodation in respect of buildings and playing fields. I am not sure for what purpose the parish priest is seeking land.

A car park.

A car park or something of that nature. They have asked the county council to help on numerous occasions. I ask the Minister if he can assist in this matter.

People who live in rural areas know they are easily isolated. One of the most important things in such areas is activity of some kind. The activities of the GAA and soccer clubs and the parish, school, barracks, etc., maintain the life of local areas. The day these institutions are closed is the day the local area will die. Will accommodation be given to St. Martin's GAA Club under the Bill? The amount of land they need is very small compared to the overall amount available. There are over 2,000 acres at Johnstown Castle and St. Martin's only needs the use of three to five acres. The county council is also seeking further land——

Due to the fact that they were given so many houses yesterday.

——in view of the increased amount of housing starts granted by the Department.

I am glad that the Environmental Protection Agency headquarters will be sited at Johnstown Castle and I wish the Minister well with the project.

I welcome the opportunity to speak on this Bill. I welcome the Minister to the House for the second consecutive week.

As the Minister stated, this Bill is a straightforward piece of legislation. Its purpose is to enable Teagasc to lease a site at Johnstown Castle to the Environmental Protection Agency. I doubt if any Member will have any objection to, or difficulty with, the passing of the Bill. This is the second week this House is dealing with environmental protection. It is good that this is the case.

If we are to improve our care and custody of the environment, the Environmental Protection Agency will have a major role to play. The Minister indicated that since part of the agency's role was discussed last week in the context of the Waste Management Bill, there is no need to dwell on it further today. I welcome the provisions in the Bill to give the agency a new home. I also the welcome the continued policy of situating such offices outside Dublin. With regard to the social fabric of rural communities and towns, it is important that such jobs be available so that the people can contribute to the locality in which they live.

Some time ago, Cork County Council, of which I am a member, donated part of its buildings near the dam on the River Lee to the Environmental Protection Agency for use as an office. I accept the Minister's comments on the suitability of the castle. However, I hope that any new development will be consistent with the pattern of existing developments. The Minister also stated that the provisions of this Bill were shown to the legal representatives of those who donated the estate to the State. By their original bequest, Dorothy Jeffries and Maurice Lakin indicated their concern for the environment of the castle grounds and the nation as a whole. In many ways they were ahead of their time. If they were alive today, care of the environment would be high on their list of concerns as is the case with all civic-minded people. Consequently, I am sure they would have no difficulty with the provisions of the Bill.

The Bill deals with other issues not directly related to the Environmental Protection Agency. The terms of the 1980 Amendment Act appear to be rather limited. They refuse Teagasc the flexibility to deal effectively with the land in question. Subsection (2)(a) of the Bill seeks to correct this difficulty. It also imposes a limit on the amount of land within the castle grounds whose use can be turned over to purposes other than those consistent with the initial testament. The Minister indicated that the legal representatives of the estate will be consulted on all proposals. To do otherwise would be unacceptable. I am glad the original agricultural purpose of the disposition will be safeguarded by the existing provision which necessitates that Teagasc obtain the approval of the Minister for Agriculture, Food and Forestry before any disposal of land.

I commend the Minister for this Bill and I look forward to its securing a speedy passage through both Houses. He has acted appropriately in giving the thanks owed by the State to the generous donors of Johnstown Castle. The work of the Environmental Protection Agency is important and I hope this Bill will enable that body to continue its tasks. It faces a tough future. Many miles of coastline and many rivers must be protected while the problems of waste disposal and other thorny topics must be dealt with. The Environmental Protection Agency requires the full support of this House in its work. It also requires help from local authorities as they are the bodies which are at present handling day-to-day environmental issues. The Environmental Protection Agency must work with local authorities and through the goodwill of local authorities the Environmental Protection Agency's work can come to fruition.

I thank the Minister for introducing the Bill and I wish him well.

I thank Senators for their contributions. As expected, there is a strong welcome in the House for the measures proposed in this legislation. It is a straightforward, enabling Bill which I am anxious to have enacted as soon as possible.

Senators will forgive me my anxiety in this regard but I have proposals ready from the Office of Public Works to commence the tendering process. They are constrained by legalities and are awaiting the enactment of this legislation before they can get to work. All sides of the House are anxious to allow the Office of Public Works to commence construction as soon as possible so that this new facility can be available to the Environmental Protection Agency. It will, I believe, be one of the State's most important agencies before long.

I wish to comment on some of the points made. I can assure Senator Lanigan that it is not envisaged that the existing castle be used for offices. The castle was surveyed by the Office of Public Works and was deemed unsuitable. We did not wish to interfere architecturally with the building and that would have been required to make it usable as the headquarters of the Environmental Protection Agency. It is intended to build a new building on the estate lands. It will be a state of the art environmental protection building which will be built in sympathy with existing buildings on the estate. However, it will not be part of the ornamental lands and will not impact on them, although that magnificent vista and those lands will be open to the agency, its international visitors and the staff of the agency. Equally when the Department of Agriculture, Food and Forestry decentralises to the same estate, it will not build on the ornamental gardens. Those lands and the woodlands will be preserved but the Department will have access to them.

It will be a tremendously important environmental and agricultural campus. On the one site will be located the national headquarters of the Environmental Protection Agency and, we hope, a future European topic centre from the European agency which is currently located in Copenhagen, a significant division of the Department of Agriculture, Food and Forestry and the soils research division of Teagasc. That level of synergy will be of tremendous benefit both to agriculture and the environment. I suppose it is no coincidence that these two ministries are currently occupied by Wexford Deputies. I am delighted to see the dream of this campus becoming a centre of environmental excellence coming to pass.

With regard to the provision I have incorporated in the Bill, it does not simply deal with the accommodation needs of the Environmental Protection Agency. I am using the Bill as a vehicle to respond in a positive way to local concerns. There are small requests from the local GAA club and from the local parish to facilitate local needs. Teagasc is willing to do that but it is currently legally disabled from responding positively to such requests. This is an enabling provision which will put that situation right. It will be possible for Teagasc to respond to such requests without having to enact Acts of the Oireachtas in each case, which would make it impossible to respond to such requests. The final decision will be made by the Minister for Agriculture, Food and Forestry who must approve any transfer of land from the estate. It is envisaged under the Bill that no more than 5 per cent of the existing land — my briefing notes inform me that the current estate and demesne comprise 1,000 acres — would be used.

I am anxious that we should be able to respond positively to local requests while at the same time maintain our faith with the original donors who I congratulate and thank again. The original donors have passed on to their eternal rewards but my Department has communicated with their heirs and legal representatives to keep them informed of what is happening. Our most recent correspondence from Mr. Lakin before he passed on indicated that he was very positive about the developments and about the State's stewardship of this fine estate over the years. He was pleased with all that was done.

I welcome the support of Senators for this provision, I look forward to its speedy enactment and to Members of the House visiting the magnificent Johnstown estate when the Environmental Protection Agency is up and running.

Question put and agreed to.
Agreed to take remaining Stages today.
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