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Seanad Éireann debate -
Thursday, 2 May 1996

Vol. 147 No. 3

Order of Business.

Today's business is items 1 and 2. Item 1 will be taken from now until 1 p.m. when there will be sos, and item 2, Second Stage only, will be taken at 2 p.m.

The Order of Business is agreeable to us. With regard to the nurses' pay negotiations, it would be a shame and an injustice to nurses if they are forced to strike for decent pay. I ask the Leader to convey our view to the Minister for Health that it would not be looked upon kindly if the Government allows a situation to develop where the nurses have to strike to get a decent wage for their vocation. It is in everybody's interest that the funding be found to ensure the nurses can carry on working.

I support Senator Wright's remarks about the nursing profession. I appeal to the Leader to do whatever can be done to resolve this matter. Nurses do a difficult and important job and a system should be found to resolve the problems.

This afternoon the Taoiseach will launch a document on the public service. The difficulties in the Department of Agriculture, Food and Forestry with regard to the operational schemes as a result of a dispute with the CPSU were discussed on the Adjournment last night, and there are difficulties with the shift workers in the ESB. Perhaps all these matters could be incorporated in to a debate on the public service and the semi-State sector in the next couple of weeks.

I support Senators Wright and Dardis in their remarks on the nurses' dispute. I appeal to the Minister for Health to take action before the matter escalates and avoid chaos in hospitals. Clashes are looming between the unions and the Government in a whole range of areas. The dispute affecting farmers' payments has already caused chaos in the farming community and there are difficulties looming in the ESB. We are facing serious industrial unrest and I am amazed the Labour Party has allowed this situation to develop.

Has the Senator a question for the Leader of the House?

We are likely to see a breakdown of the tripartite arrangement which has existed between the Government, the unions and the employers which has been so successful in getting the economy in shape.

We are not discussing the issue today.

Will the Leader make time available to discuss the issue of industrial relations and the serious threat to the social partnership arrangements? If it breaks down we will enter a difficult and unsettling period.

I am delighted the Members of the House have broken their silence on the nurses pay problem. Perhaps they are not aware of the nurses vote this morning which was supposed to be a four to one rejection, but the nurses have rejected the Government's offer by about nine to one. It is a sensational result which is the culmination of years and years of putting nurses at the bottom of the pile and leaving them as serfs in the public service.

We are not discussing the issue today, Senator. Have you a question for the Leader of the House?

We should not only have a debate on the nurses' claim, because that would be closing the stable door after the horse has bolted. We should have had such a debate months ago when we knew this issue would arise. However, we put our heads in the sand hoping they would accept this deal, which they have not done.

A question for the Leader. We are not discussing that issue.

The Minister for Health and the Minister for Finance should come to the House to tell us about their plans for the public service and public service pay in the future. Perhaps the Minister will say if the nurses' rejection is a rejection of the Programme for Competitiveness and Work.

We are not discussing the matter today.

Does the teachers' or Senator O'Toole's victory in securing so much money have anything to do with the nurses' rejection?

Given that we are talking about the nurses' dispute, I ask the Leader for an overall discussion on employment. While we spoke about Packard Electric yesterday, Senator O'Sullivan suggested that we find time to discuss the report issued by the Department of Enterprise and Employment on employment opportunities. We have asked for a discussion on European Monetary Union on a number of occasions. The question of monetary union is not being discussed and, like other items relating to Europe, we often leave it until the last moment. There is a clear link between employment and European Monetary Union. I am not suggesting one debate, but two and I urge the Leader to find time in the near future for both.

I wish to refer to item 11, Statements on the International Fund for Ireland, and item 24, a motion in the name of Fianna Fáil Senators relating to Border county funding. While I know we can place item 24 on the Order of Business, I would like to know when the Leader proposes to resume the debate on item 11. The report published yesterday during a meeting of the British-Irish Inter-parliamentary Body, which was subscribed to by the Irish as well as the British, reached a conclusion in relation to the existing ratio of funding between North and South. For the information of Members, 75 per cent of the fund goes to the North, while 25 per cent goes to the Border counties. I and many of my colleagues in the Border counties have, both in this House and as far away as Washington, tried to get this ratio reduced in favour of the southern Border counties which have suffered the ravages of economic neglect not only over the past 25 years but since the foundation of the State.

We are not discussing that today.

In that context, it is timely to resume those statements. Perhaps the report of the body or a synopsis could be made available to Members to help inform them as to how southern Irish participants came to this conclusion to which I vehemently object. It is an insult to the Border counties.

A statement was circulated to Members by Patrick Mason, artistic director of the Abbey Theatre. Will we have an opportunity to debate the implications of this unprecedented departure into the public domain by the artistic director of the national theatre who expressed concern about its continued viability?

I support Senator Wright's call for a resolution to the nurses' dispute. Someone said the reason the Minister cannot give in is because there would be a rash of other claims as people will want to retain their differential, which is sad. Nursing is one of the best professions and it should lead the way. Without nurses many people would face serious difficulties.

As I pointed out earlier, we are not discussing that matter today.

Could we have a debate on the opening hours of licensed premises? We have a problem in relation to alcohol abuse for which our licensing laws are responsible. I would like to see the same opening hours apply to all premises because the present system militates against small pubs in rural areas and in the cities. It gives an advantage to clubs and hotels which can get extensions. Nobody should be able to get an extension and closing for all pubs should be 12 p.m. or 1 p.m. In the interests of fair play for pubs and the tourism industry, a debate is needed on this issue.

I thought Senator Ross would jump into the breach with boring predictability in that if he spoke about nurses he would have to speak about teachers. In the area of industrial relations I agree with the point made by Senator Wright and other Senators about the need to deal with issues. I caution both sides of the House that Governments come and go and remaining problems must be dealt with. The Programme for Competitiveness and Work has been through three different Governments and existing problems may be dealt with by this or the next Government, which would have a different complexion.

There is a lot to be said for a discussion on public pay policy. There is no doubt that nurses are underpaid — there is consensus on that. However, the ins an outs of it should not be used for political purposes. It is clear that the process of change will be difficult in all areas. Irish society is in a state of flux and there is a strong case for a discussion on public pay and the Programme for Competitiveness and Work to see how they fit into a Government plan and strategy. I urge the Leader to facilitate such an agreement so that people can appreciate——

We are not discussing that matter this morning.

I support the view that there should be a full debate. It should not boil down to easy answers for anybody. People will have to find a way forward and we should support nurses and other groups having difficulty coming to terms with a lot of changes in society. We must put together deals which will make that easier for them.

The main issue was raised by the Leader of the Opposition on nurses' pay. Sentiments expressed on all sides will be conveyed. The best way to discuss this matter would be to follow on from Senator O'Toole's very helpful contribution, that is, to table the document being launched by the Taoiseach today on future developments in the public service. That document would give us a framework within which the other issues raised could be debated, particularly when looking at the future of the issues indicated by Senator O'Toole.

In the course of his characteristically helpful contribution, Senator Ross said that there had not been a debate on the nurses' situation, but he did not ask for one. Senator Ross knows that whatever he asks for, I agree to it. If he had asked me, we could have had that debate.

The Leader might regret that.

Senator Mooney raised the question of the report on the Abbey Theatre. I have had no request for a debate on that matter. Senator Farrell raised a valid point on licensing hours which many of us believe are anachronistic and discriminate against some of the enterprises he mentioned. I would be willing to have a debate on that subject if the House believes it would be helpful. I have not lost sight of Senator Quinn's request for a debate on European Monetary Union. If I can arrange that after the Finance Bill, 1996, I will do so.

I could provide time for Members who are on the British-Irish Inter-parliamentary Body to report to us on the substantial events at Adare. I am sure the matter to which Senator Mooney referred would be raised.

Order of Business agreed to.
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