Seanad Éireann debate -
Thursday, 27 Jun 1996

Vol. 148 No. 5

Criminal Justice Act, 1994 (Section 46 (6)) Regulations, 1996: Motion (Resumed).

The following motion was moved by Senator Neville on Thursday, 27 June 1996:

"That Seanad Éireann approves the following Regulations in draft:

Criminal Justice Act, 1994 (Section 46 (6)) Regulations, 1996,

a copy of which was laid in draft before the Seanad on 26th June, 1996."

(Senator Neville.)

Mr. Neville

The murder of a journalist is sinister in the extreme. She was murdered because of her skills in exposing information which is vital in challenging the criminal subculture which is threatening the existence of society. This act is a challenge to a vital element of our hard-won democracy, the independence and freedom of expression of the media. Journalists must be free of threats and terror. It is important in this context, as the Minister said, to put everything in place to ensure these people are tackled and brought to justice.

For that reason, I welcome the regulation before the House. It is important in that it brings into force a section of the Criminal Justice Act, 1994, to confiscate and freeze the proceeds of crime. Under that Act, the proceeds of crime can be confiscated and an order extends that power to other countries. Orders made by our courts to freeze and confiscate the proceeds of crime can be implemented in other countries and similar court orders in other countries can be enforced here. Crime is an international activity which does not cease at nor is it confined or enclosed by the shores of this country. It is must be dealt with internationally.

This regulation will allow us to ratify two important conventions: the United Nations Vienna 1988 Convention against Illicit Drug Trafficking, in narcotic and psychotropic drugs, and the Council of Europe Strasbourg 1990 Convention on Laundering, Search, Seizure and Confiscation of Proceeds of Crime.

The criminal will be hit hardest is in his pocket. The multi-millionaire drug barons about whom we hear daily must be brought to justice and not be allowed to enjoy the proceeds of their crimes. These must be confiscated under the 1994 Act. This is complicated legislation and I agree with the Minister that many people do not fully understand or realise the powers of the State since 1994 in confiscation of assets. The Minister is right in bringing this to our attention. Recent discussions in the media illustrate that it is not fully understood that crime proceeds can be confiscated if the information is available. People are obliged and should be encouraged to bring information to the Garda so that people who commit acts such as the cruel murders of both Garda McCabe and Veronica Guerin are brought to justice. This information is available. We saw the great public response to the Garda request for information after the murder of Jerry McCabe. We see daily arrests and questioning of key people because of the public response. I am confident the response will be repeated for information on the death of Veronica Guerin. The response should be similar on all occasions and whether thugs are drug barons or subversives does not make any difference. These people challenge the fabric of our society and the foundations of our democracy. We all have a duty to assist the Garda in any way we can to ensure they bring a case to court.

Since drug trafficking and crime are international problems we must look towards improved co-operation between police forces. What we are doing today is co-operating in providing for the confiscation of the proceeds of crime. Two weeks ago we dealt with money laundering and so on. Co-operation between police forces has increased since the advent of the open border but we must continue to improve it. In the light of the massive scale of international activities like drug trading and terrorism, it is important that European police forces become a cohesive unit which will have adequate resources to carry out detailed research into the problem and to formulate laws and strategies to combat it. Urgent action is needed to improve the co-ordination and efficiency of agencies combating drug trafficking across the Community. I am glad that the Government has placed this at the top of its agenda during the EU Presidency and I look forward to progress in this area.

The drug traffickers operate on an international basis and know no boundaries. The war against them will be lost unless we co-ordinate our forces. We must introduce a European Union drugs task force modelled on the United States task force programme which should be adapted for Community use. The relevant department in Interpol should expanded and reorganised on the basis of a number of principles and recommendations suggested in the report of the 1986 Committee of Inquiry and should be given full financial backing. It is frightening that only between 5 and 10 per cent of illegal drugs are recovered by international security forces each year.

The opening of European borders facilitates the distribution of drugs throughout EU member states. Unfortunately, since 1992, there has been a dramatic increase in drug trafficking. Today's measures will assist in dealing in one way with this problem.

Money laundering, which we already discussed, must be re-examined. International banking legislation and conventions of secrecy facilitate the safe disposal and concealment of the vast profits from criminal activity. While I accept there must be confidentiality in legitimate financial transactions, progress must be made in devising means of detecting quantities of funds from criminal activities within the legitimate banking system so that the regulations brought in today can be put into practice in freezing these funds. Means must be found to identify these moneys in banks.

All the available evidence strongly suggests that large-scale crime is becoming more sophisticated in its scope and has increasing international dimensions. It has also come to be recognised that where large amounts of criminal proceeds are involved it is by no means sufficient that the perpetrators of crime should be dealt with simply by way of imprisonment and fines. Other measures are called for which include the confiscation of criminal assets on an international basis, a measure that is before the House today. This is required to target those who reap substantial rewards from crime at the expense of others and of society as a whole.

Nowhere is there a greater need for these additional measures than in the area of drug trafficking. We all know tremendous profits can be made from drugs and that this obnoxious trade is being carried out by evil parasites who prey on others, especially on our young.

It is hard to imagine a greater threat to the quality of life than drug trafficking. In many other countries these activities have undermined legitimate business because many drug traffickers and other professional criminals move their finances into legitimate businesses. The reality of what happens is all too simple and there is a pattern about it that is all too familiar to us in our role as public representatives. The drug godfathers set about creating a market for their products among young people. Very soon those whom they successfully target become addicts who live for nothing but their fix. The obsession with feeding their addiction is such that over time virtually all social values disappear.

This is an important motion in tackling an element of the problem. I agree with the Minister who said that it is only an element of the overall approach that must be taken towards controlling and reducing this terrible evil in society. It is, however, an important step which I welcome wholeheartedly.

Dr. Henry

With the permission of the House, I wish to share my time with Senator Norris.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

Is that agreed? Agreed.

Dr. Henry

I warmly welcome the regulations the Minister is introducing. They are a continuation of the various pieces of legislation which have been introduced over the last few years. What other member states of the Council of Europe have yet to sign up to these international regulations? I do not think we are by any means the last country to do so. It is important that these regulations should not just be European but global because drug money is easily transferred from country to country. According to a visitor I heard addressing a meeting of accountants, a considerable amount of money is being laundered through Ireland. I hope these regulations will be able to stop that. I feel sure the Minister will get a considerable amount of money under the various pieces of legislation which have been introduced in the last few years.

Naturally, Veronica Guerin is uppermost in all our minds today. I would like the Minster to address an issue which Veronica Guerin herself raised in an interview with Brian Farrell. At the end of the interview on the subject of crime. Mr. Farrell asked what she thought was the most important thing that could be done to tackle crime in this country. Ms Guerin said she thought areas of great social deprivation should be tackled. I am quite sure Mr. Farrell would show us a recording of the programme if we wanted to view it.

Whatever legislation is introduced, it is important to remember that there are serious basic causes of crime. An editorial in the December/January issue of Garda News, welcoming the Minister's crime package, commented:

It must be added also that no one believes that the ills of society can be tackled by laws alone. There is a heavy responsibility on the Government to ensure that all the social agencies have the resources to operate effectively, and to maintain social conditions at a level which will work positively as a force for good and a means of diverting people away from crime. There are no more fertile breeding grounds for crime than unemployment and poverty.

I expect large sums of money to be seized when these regulations are enforced, but can that money be directly invested in the various projects which have been set up to prevent the development of crime within areas of our society? For example, when the former Minister for Justice, Deputy Geoghegan-Quinn, spoke about crime on 14 December 1993, she referred to community-based initiatives in areas of disadvantage, and she added:

The Garda Síochána are involved in two very successful youth diversion projects in the Dublin area — the Key project in Killinarden, and the Graft project in Ronanstown.

As the current Minister knows, funding has been forthcoming from the Department of Justice and the projects were to receive £100,000 a year in the 1994-1997 period. Suppose another four or five projects like those were set up.

Minister for Justice (Mrs. Owen)

We have seven and there are two new ones in Cork.

Dr. Henry

I am delighted to hear that but rather than £100,000, we should give them £200,000 each from the proceeds we will receive. What we get in should be directly targeted to problem areas.

The 1994 report of the Lord Mayor's Commission on Crime, a professional survey undertaken in 1986 by Mr. Paul O'Mahony, and updated in his recent book Crime and Punishment in Ireland, highlighted that 31 per cent of prisoners in Mountjoy were intravenous drug users; only 11 per cent stay on at school after 16 years; on average, prisoners came from families of eight children; over one third came from families of ten children or more; and 80 per cent of the prisoners were unemployed immediately prior to committal.

This demonstrates that such families need to be targeted and the Minister already knows what sort of social problems we have to deal with. However, my plea is that the money seized as a result of introducing these regulations should be spent directly on those areas. In that way we can get involved in crime prevention at its very source.

Mr. Norris

I am grateful to my colleague, Senator Henry, for sharing her time with me. I strongly support what she said about the importance of addressing difficult situations within problematic areas such as the north inner city of Dublin. I live in an area which has 85 per cent unemployment and this creates a reservoir of people who are an easy target for drugs. Parents are unemployed, their children will be unemployed and there is little for them. I endorse Senator Henry's suggestion for funding programmes to help such areas.

I know about some of these programmes because I am involved in Dublin Chamber of Commerce's 2010 subcommittee on crime under the chairmanship of the distinguished former athlete, Mr. Tony Hanahoe. The committee has been training young people in marginalised areas in the proper treatment of horses so that the animals are not abused. In Belfast, similar young people are taught stock-car racing.

We need to become involved in such projects because young people see advertisements for fast cars on television and since they know they will never be able to own them they steal them. However, it would do a great deal of good if they could be taught how to drive expertly in a controlled programme, have fun in doing so and have opportunities opened up to them as a result.

I congratulate the Minister for her clear exposition, which I hope will be widely reported. As the Minister correctly said there is large scale ignorance about what the Government is doing. I did not hear Senator Mulcahy's contribution. I found it was too overpowering.

Mrs. Owen

The Senator gave out to me for highlighting what does exist.

Mr. Norris

I am glad the Minister did so and it was extremely welcome. I was listening to the wireless over the last couple of days and I heard people from the Lower House, who should have known better, saying that there was no mechanism for freezing the assets of drug dealers. This was stated categorically and it caused me some pause because I wondered if I was dreaming. I recall having passed some such measure within the last 18 months in this House so I thought the hay fever had finally got to me. Am I hallucinating? Am I imagining I am doing this work in Leinster House?

The public needs to be properly and directly informed. It is not a question of an instant response. Crime cannot be extinguished in the immediate aftermath of even so tragic a circumstance as the murder of Veronica Guerin. It is a question of slowly, carefully and methodically putting in place those elements of the law that will assist in the extermination of this kind of crime.

I welcome that the Minister has placed these matters on the record. It is appropriate that assets can be frozen. This is a small measure which allows us to co-operate with our European neighbours in ensuring money is not stowed away in this country and that it cannot be reached when criminals are convicted in other countries.

I was listening this morning to Gary Agnew reporting from Rome. He drew a parallel between what has been happening in this country and the way in which the Mafia have to be attacked in the aftermath of the assassination of people like Judge Falcone, who had been involved in setting in place precisely this kind of instrument. In Italy they found it was exceedingly important that the assets of these drug barons and mafia criminals could be attacked, distrained and-or frozen. I also heard Mrs. Felloni interviewed about her husband this morning — what an appropriate name; felony, Felloni, felonious; this is what these people are. He is in prison but she said he has access to huge amounts of money, even from within prison.

I do not intend to do anything other than praise this Minister for Justice. She has the most unenviable role. I believe she is performing it well. I do not think she will get the praise she deserves because it necessarily has to be a slow process. What are the Revenue Commissioners doing about this? Are they intimidated? I can understand that on a human scale, but are we prepared to permit the Revenue Commissioners to be intimidated? They are not intimidated by little old ladies on pensions or PAYE workers. It would be a significant scandal if they are intimidated by these drug barons who, for the price of £2,000, can have somebody wiped off the streets of our capital city. The Revenue Commissioners are part of the key. I have great sympathy with them and their families, because they are being placed in an invidious situation. Perhaps they may feel I am doing this again for them. However, I believe and I have said before, that we really need a three pronged attack. We should set up a task force or a series of task forces involving the Revenue Commissioners, Social Welfare and the Garda. Veronica Guerin named certain people specifically and clearly. Those who were not named were given pseudonyms like The Penguin and the The Monk, as if they were from some American comic strip. In an insidious way this makes them palatable, acceptable, romantic and almost hero figures to schoolchildren. I would prefer to have them under their own names, out in the glare of publicity, not acting the clown in Mickey Mouse underpants like the General used to do. What they do should be made clear to young people. I would like an undertaking that each and every one of those persons fingered by Veronica Guerin would be systematically investigated by a three pronged investigative drive, including the Garda, the Revenue and Social Welfare. This would be the most fitting memorial she could have and it would do a certain amount of good.

To a certain extent, we are tackling only one end of the problem. By the time we sequester assets, those assets have already been engendered; generated by the misery of hundreds of thousands of young people. It is not enough to deal with that end of the equation. It has to be dealt with earlier, before that money is generated. We have to do both simultaneously.

We must also be realistic. Let us forget about thinking it is terribly important to destroy a certain amount of cannabis. The real problem is heroin. Nobody knocks over, assaults and brutalises an old woman for a couple of joints. They simply do not do it. The potent addiction of heroin is the problem. I realise, and people should be aware of this, that it was stated today on the radio that the persons involved in organising the murder of Veronica Guerin were involved in the ecstasy and marijuana end of the equation.

We must look at supply and demand. I know the Minister may not agree, but I believe there is a growing opinion that this is true. It is not enough to attack supply. Supply exists because there is a demand. There are different views as to how demand is attacked. My view is a pretty radical one and I have come to it after a lot of thought — the only way to end this global epidemic of drug taking is to destroy the financial base. There is only one method of doing that, to legalise the whole shooting match. However, that cannot be done by Ireland on its own. It cannot be done by a city on its own. It has been tried in Amsterdam, Denmark and Zurich in limited ways but you simply will not win until the financial incentive is destroyed. I travel quite a bit. I am sure the Minister travels a lot more. I compliment her on her clarity of thought having just arrived back from New York, I do not know how she manages to do it. Going through places like Singapore, for example, there are constant warnings about the dangers and the penalties for bringing in even fairly mild narcotic drugs for personal use. Yet, people are regularly caught and executed in places like Singapore and Hong Kong.

The financial motive is so strong that the United States is spending hundreds of millions of dollars and it is losing. A woman on the radio today said our little boats are not good enough to counter the invasion of our coastland by international drug traffickers. She said we should do what the Americans do and get some of the American boats but the American boats have significantly failed. The only way to get rid of the problem, just like prohibition, is to destroy the economic incentive because unfortunately, the human animal, being composed as it is, money is a very powerful incentive. It will overcome the fear of jail, the fear of imprisonment, the fear of danger and even of death, if it is administered in sufficiently strong doses. The only drug I know that is more powerful than heroin is money. A particular kind of personality will always go for it. That is a long-term solution and I do not expect the Minister to be in a position to look at that, unless perhaps when meeting her colleagues. As Minister for Justice during the coming six months, I understand the Minister will be chairing meetings of European Ministers for Justice. I suggest that perhaps these kind of ideas should be looked at as a possibility in the long-term, unless the Minister can come back after the six months of the Irish EU Presidency and convince people like me that it can be done in any other way or that there is any sign that we are winning the battle against drugs. I do not believe we are. In the meantime, this is an excellent measure and I compliment the Minister on it. I hope there is plenty of publicity showing the various steps the Minister has, quite correctly, outlined to us as having been taken by this administration in the battle against drugs. She has set the record straight. There is a belief throughout this society that the Minister and her administration are doing nothing, that they have significantly failed — that they have not frozen the assets and that it is not possible to do these things. As a result of what the Minister said in the House today it is perfectly clear to those who will hear and those who will report the facts widely that she has started what is not an easy process.

Ms Gallagher

This has proved an interesting debate on a topic that did not seem to have such a wide-ranging scope. Senator Neville said earlier that the very fabric of society and our quality of life is at stake. It is estimated that 70 to 80 per cent of crime is drug related, which is a frightening statistic. Parents are concerned that drugs are so widely available to their children. It must be awful to realise that one is rearing children in a world such as this.

How can this problem be tackled? There are no simple answers. There is much ignorance about the action taken by the current Government and preceding administrations. This is a very complicated issue. The causes of the problem can be considered, disadvantage in society and the issue of prisons discussed, and there can be knee jerk reactions similar to those which occured in recent days. However, if we are to tackle this problem, there must be a co-ordinated, multi-faceted approach. I listened to the radio this morning and some frightening things were said about not having laws in place to tackle the problem and that the identity of criminals is known but they cannot be apprehended. It is not as simple as that.

The current administration and its predecessor introduced many laws relating to public order and gave the Garda Síochána a wide range of powers. Be that as it may, however, the issue of enforcement must also be considered. I sometimes question whether it is more than a garda's job is worth to take on the gangsters. I object to these people being termed "barons" because it is too nice a title for the individuals concerned. Is there an impetus to deal with these people? As recent events have shown, anyone who attempts to do so enters the line of fire and is likely to be eliminated without recourse to judge or jury. This issue must be examined seriously and it will not prove an easy task to do so.

Discussion has taken place on the role of the Revenue Commissioners, which is crucial. This matter was debated by Labour's parliamentary party last night and on many previous occasions. It was agreed that one of the more effective ways to tackle the problem of drugs and crime in our society is to hit those responsible where it hurts, namely in their pockets. Until there is a fully co-ordinated approach between the Garda Síochána, the Revenue Commissioners and Customs and Excise, we will bang our heads against a brick wall. From information received at last night's meeting, I understand the Government has succeeded in bringing together those three strands in a co-ordinated manner which will allow them to share information and deal more effectively with criminals.

Another matter highlighted by the Minister during this debate relates to the law on money laundering. This legislation provides a very efficient and direct way to deal with criminals. It must be remembered that these people have recourse to the best accountants in the country and can obtain advice as to where best to invest the proceeds of their terrible crimes. We must examine ways in which information relating to money laundering can be used to bring about convictions.

This is where the regulations come into play and it is apt that they do so, at a time when there has been much discussion about what is happening in society. The regulations must be put in force to facilitate the confiscation of the profits made by these gangsters. It is nauseating to hear that these people claim unemployment assistance each week and live in secluded houses on the outskirts of the city. I believe that the best way to apprehend them is through the Revenue Commissioners and the sharing of financial information.

There has been a knee jerk reaction from some sources during the past number of days. It was stated that the Government should take action and the Garda Síochána, whose hands are tied, should be given access to increased financial resources. However, it will be no easy feat, in terms of the legal implications involved, to link the person who assassinated Veronica Guerin with the individual who paid them to do it. Senator Mulcahy went somewhat over the top in tackling the Minister but I would rather hear him offer a helpful suggestion as to apprehending the person who paid for Veronica Guerin's murder. The nub of the problem is that these people can pay £1,000 or £2,000 to have someone killed and will ensure that they have a perfect alibi. How can they be convicted for cold blooded murder? They cannot be convicted under our present laws or any other system of law.

We must consider devising new laws which would treat that type of assassination as a serious crime. The issue of easy access to guns and weaponry in Ireland must also be considered. This is a very complicated issue but certain aspects of it could be tackled. There has been much discussion about putting increased resources in place. In my opinion, because so much crime is drug related, extra Garda resources must be invested in the work of the drug squad. If most of the Force's business arises in this area, the drug squad must receive maximum resources.

I have my own concerns about small towns throughout Ireland which have problems with drug barons and suppliers on a lesser scale. The identities of these people are known and I question whether there is a willingness to apprehend them. It is hard to say so but that is often what the problem boils down to. It is more than anyone's job is worth to tackle these people and they are obviously aware of that fact. Money must not be invested in something that does not work and we must not introduce harsh laws which may never be enforced. As individuals, we must consider how this problem can be tackled. Only then can we introduce the co-ordinated approach needed.

On occasion, much lip service, and no real thought, is given to this problem. The Minster for Justice and the Government, however, have made a co-ordinated effort to consider the many aspects and facets of drug-related crime, which the most serious crime in our country. The Minister has an extremely difficult task. This is not an easy time for anyone. I question the validity of information people claim to have in relation to crime and the identity of drug barons. Do the people who obtain and offer such information have vested interests? Is that information being given to the right agencies? Is it being co-ordinated in such a way that the problem can be tackled? This issue warrants much deeper consideration than it has been afforded to date. I wish the Minister well in her endeavours.

Mr. Lanigan

Like other Members, I welcome the regulations. I was shocked to hear the Minister accuse Members of this House and the Lower House of ignorance with regard to what is being done. There is no doubt that rules and regulations have been introduced and laws changed in the past two to three years. Everyone knows, however, that what counts is the enforcement of these regulations and the law. No one can tell me that the public are ignorant of what is happening. They are outraged and are clearly stating that new action must be taken. I cannot reply in strong enough terms to the Minister's arrogance in imputing ignorance on the part of Members. I must state this, even while welcoming the introduction of the regulations.

We will only see results from these regulations if the necessary task force is set up. As has been said, this task force must be co-ordinated between the Garda, the Revenue Commissioners and Customs and Excise, but how will we protect officers of these bodies from the drug barons and crime lords?

Senators spoke about doing things in areas of social deprivation to stop the drug barons' activities. However, the barons do not live in those areas, they live in mansions, drive the best cars, go to the best clubs and take expensive holidays. In smaller towns everyone knows who they are. In Kilkenny the drug suppliers send teenagers out to deliver drugs on bicycles. The kids are caught but the suppliers never are, because they are too clever. They have huge bank accounts and when they send their children on holiday to Spain or Portugal, they pay with cash. The gardaí have tried to do something about them but they do not get back-up.

Something must also be done about the court system. In too many cases, people charged with serious crimes are released immediately, pending the arrival of a file from the DPP. When the file in a murder case in Kilkenny was sent to the DPP, the accused went to England, returned two years later and was convicted. This man was released pending the return of the file and, although it is hard to get a murder conviction in Ireland, there was one in this case. Nonetheless, he was able to go to England in the meantime. Perhaps the office of the DPP is understaffed but something must be done. Why should someone charged with a serious crime be allowed back on the streets with no supervision? The courts, the gardaí and the public are all fed up with this and it must be tackled if we seriously intend to solve this problem.

The murders of Garda Jerry McCabe and Veronica Guerin have brought our outrage and shock to the surface but no one seems to be able to tackle this problem in a meaningful and co-ordinated manner. There was internment for republican prisoners. If everyone, including the dogs in the street, knows who these people are, why can they not be interned? Civil liberties go only as far as the protection of our society allows. We should be cognisant of our civil liberties but these people do not care about any kind of liberty. They are killing by rote at present and unless the Government tackles the problem, the public will become more outraged and every politician and Member of the Oireachtas will be blamed, regardless of who the Minister is.

We have swamped the country with legislation on a daily basis in recent years and while we are putting more effort into producing Bills, they are no use if they are not enforced. It is laughable.

Mrs. Owen

The Senator's spokesman in the other House keeps demanding more legislation.

Mr. Lanigan

What we want is enforceable and enforced legislation. I do not know exactly how a task force can be set up but we must do so. The people at the sharp end must be given the protection of the State — there is no point saying we cannot protect them if they cannot do their job because they are afraid. An officer of the Revenue Commissioners who searches a drug baron's house should have his head examined, unless he has a strong force to protect him.

Mrs. Tony Felloni listed the pseudonyms under which her husband placed his assets, including £250,000 in the Irish Permanent. Surely if a person deposits that amount of money in cash, someone must ask where it came from. Coutts Bank received millions of pounds from Mr. Felloni.

An Cathaoirleach

I ask the Senator not to name private individuals.

Mr. Lanigan

If Coutts accepts this money surely it knows it is being laundered. One does not pick that amount of cash on the side of the street. The regulations being introduced today will help solve this problem.

It would also be helpful if other countries co-operated but we know they will not. I do not know why the British are not assisting the establishment of Europol, but unless they do we will not find the source of drugs and we will be unable to freeze assets and remove them from financial institutions. The Minister must question the directors of all Irish financial institutions to find out what dicey money they have on deposit.

Mrs. Owen

They have made 300 reports.

Mr. Lanigan

How many people have been investigated as a result?

Mrs. Owen

That process is going on at present. The legislation is quite new.

Mr. Neville

It is only three weeks old.

Mr. Lanigan

To get the information is one thing but to enforce the legislation is another.

It has been suggested that this money should be used in areas of social deprivation and that young people should be involved in stock car racing as it keeps them off the street and stops them stealing cars. In fact, it teaches them to drive more quickly. In other areas, those being taught to drive stock cars are also being shown how to repair cars, take them asunder and rebuild them. That may be a desirable project but many criminals have attended these classes and learned how to repair the cars they steal and to drive faster than the gardaí.

I was harsh in describing the Minister but, like the public, I want the laws we have to be enforced and these regulations to be acted on immediately when introduced. They are necessary and I am glad they are being introduced but unless we enforce them, this House is nothing but a talking shop.

Mr. Sherlock

I join with previous speakers in commending the Minister for her efforts in this area — Senator Norris expressed this particularly strongly. The people see that her initiative and efforts will co-ordinate the State, the Revenue Commissioners, the gardaí and the community, which is what we want. These regulations, which I welcome, will help further to tighten the noose around the drug importers and international traders who are holding our society hostage.

Yesterday a courageous woman who attempted to lift the veil on the subculture of drugs and crime was gunned down in cold blood. We do not yet know the identity of those who assassinated Veronica Guerin or their paymasters. We can, however, hazard a guess that she was murdered because she went too close to the truth of Ireland's criminal underworld. Veronica Guerin was as much a victim of that subculture as the heroin junkies who are dying on the streets of our towns and cities.

A few years ago it was commonplace to read of judges, politicians and investigators being slaughtered by the Italian Mafia because they posed a threat to the operations of Italy's crime bosses. When reading such reports we comforted ourselves with the thought that it could not happen here. Yesterday we learned that it could. The best tribute we can pay to Veronica Guerin is a determination that the first Irish journalist murdered in the course of her work will be the last. We can best achieve that aim by attacking the oxygen on which the criminal underworld thrives — the drugs trade.

The regulations we are debating improve the procedures for transnational confiscation, which has been an issue for debate for a long time. Drugs trafficking is big business and those who control it will best be defeated by attacking their profit base, nationally and internationally. We must make drugs trafficking and dealing unprofitable. These regulations give a transnational dimension to our confiscation procedures. I would welcome an increased focus on all financial aspects of the drugs trade. It is only in the last couple of years that a concerted effort has been made in this regard.

Following the murder of Veronica Guerin, speculation is rife as to the identity not only of those who pulled the trigger but, more importantly, those who ordered the trigger to be pulled. Today's media reports on the prime suspects in the murder focus on their lavish lifestyles. With a few exceptions they have managed to launder the proceeds of their suspected criminal activities through legitimate business fronts. There is an urgent need to improve co-operation between the Garda, the Revenue Commissioners and other Departments. We must ensure that unexplained wealth is meticulously and ruthlessly tracked down to its source. If the source of that wealth is illegal we must ensure the necessary steps are taken to prosecute and punish.

The regulations deal with transnational confiscation. The drugs trade is an international business. Ireland is a net importer of drugs: we do not manufacture ecstasy or grow marijuana or poppies. The drugs consumed in Ireland are imported and we must address the trade in the countries of origin and at the points of entry. It is sad that drugs are freely available in our villages and towns. With our EU partners we must address the flow of ecstasy into the EU from eastern European countries, such as the Czech Republic, Slovakia and Romania, the importation of marijuana and cannabis resin from North Africa and central Asia and the importation of heroin from South America. I welcome the progress with regard to Europol at the Florence summit and the priority the Irish Presidency will accord the EU-wide fight against drugs trafficking and related crime.

Drugs, like any other product, are subject to the laws of the market. Ecstasy tablets are available in Cork city and in the towns and villages of County Cork for a few pounds. The price continues to fall due to what can only be described as a glut in the market. In the global village, global action is needed to combat the drugs trade. National and EU measures alone are not sufficient. In particular, pressure must be exerted on those jurisdictions ranging from the Channel Islands to the Bahamas which allow drug traffickers to launder their profits in return for a healthy kickback. Drug producing countries are accorded pariah status and the same status should apply to those jurisdictions which, although they do not dirty their hands with the powder or the resin, gleefully accept foreign exchange from known international drug criminals.

Mr. Byrne

I support the motion. These regulations are not enough and more serious action will have to be taken. Any powers vested in the Minister should be acted upon immediately. After yesterday's terrible murder of Veronica Guerin and the recent murder of Detective Garda McCabe, the public is becoming impatient. Although I do not advocate such a course of action, it is possible that the public will take the law into its own hands.

I admire the Garda Síochána; I had an uncle who was a garda and who lost his life many years ago dealing with criminals. I admire gardaí for their courage. In recent years they have done a great job in educating young people in schools about the dangers of drugs and associated crime. It used to be a problem only in city areas but it has spread to the small villages in rural areas. The criminals are hiding the money and may invest it in pubs, hotels, properties and land.

In Italy people in high places were involved in the fight against organised crime and some of them lost their lives. We now face a serious problem. The energies of the Garda should not be wasted hauling people before the courts for minor speeding offences or waiting at rural crossroads to catch drivers who may have had a few bottles of beer. Such efforts do not help to encourage people to support the Garda at a time when it needs more support than ever. The public must co-operate with the Garda or our problems will not be solved.

Over many years much time has been wasted in feeble exercises which create a division between the Garda and the public. We should be proud of the Garda which is respected throughout the world. However, more serious problems remain to be tackled. Recently a man told me he was driving to Dublin on business and was caught for speeding. The following day he was caught for speeding on the way to Limerick. He felt that with all the crime taking place the gardaí should use their time in other ways rather than antagonising decent taxpayers. Is it any wonder at times that one reads in the newspaper that a garda was attacked — and many of them have been seriously injured over the years — and members of the public walked away? It is very sad that people will not come to their assistance.

There must be greater communication between the Garda and our young people. Gardaí travel in cars today, but 25 or 30 years ago there were more gardaí on the street talking to people, young and old, getting to know them and becoming involved in various organisations, including the GAA, soccer, rugby and other clubs. There must be more communication and confidence building because we cannot solve this problem in any other way. It is a two way system. We need co-operation with the general public to build trust. In modern times gardaí have moved away from personal contact with the general public. They are doing a great job. There has been a spin-off from the limited amount of time they can spend in schools and teachers have also played a great role in this area.

The general public appears to be unaware of the seriousness of what is happening. They see strangers, who appear to be the cream of society, buying farms and hotels and driving around but do not realise what is behind it all. That nut will have to be cracked. Any assistance the Minister can give the Garda and our judges and any expenditure required will be supported by the Opposition in both Houses. We must protect the people who are threatened by crime.

The events of the past few weeks have made many people think about what is happening. There are too many people, including some in these Houses, who are ambivalent about the people involved in crime, whether in Northern Ireland or Southern Ireland. These criminals do not recognise the State, the Government, the Garda or the Army and now they are attacking the press. We have reached a dangerous crossroads.

Some criminals preach a united Ireland, but really they have another agenda, whether it is robbing banks, social welfare money or selling drugs. I question their honesty and their aim. Many of them are involved in a high powered racket to tear our country apart and destroy our people and our image.

I spoke to somebody from London last night who mentioned that a group of girls coming out of work yesterday evening had said they would go to Ireland on their holidays. They would not having heard that a lady was shot while going about her business. Tourism will suffer and there will be less money and fewer jobs for our young people. The criminals do not mind because they have lorry loads of money deposited all over the world.

Our gardaí are well trained and well educated. There must be more co-operation with the general public to gather available information. There was another sad murder at Rosegreen in County Tipperary some months ago. All the Members of the Oireachtas from the area met the chief superintendent and stressed that the Garda must talk to people. It is no good to have them travelling the streets in squad cars with sirens blaring. One cannot beat personal communication for building up confidence. The people will not be found wanting. I ask the Minister to pay attention to that suggestion. I am not suggesting that the crime problem arose during the Minister's time. It has happened over a period of 25 years.

A big mistake was made 30 years ago when many rural Garda stations were closed down — some of them very fine buildings. One garda in a rural area is better than 20 squad cars. Nowadays young gardaí after a couple of weeks in an area might have to go out in the middle of the night to a place in unknown territory 20 miles away from the Garda station. In the past the local garda knew everyone in his area and strangers, strange cars or unusual happenings were noted. A mistake was made 30 years ago, supposedly to save a few hundred thousand pounds, but there was no saving. This cheese paring goes on in various Departments and under various Governments. The same thing happened in schools. One cannot replace the human touch. People feel secure when on their way to mass or a hurling match they can tell the local garda about any strange occurrences. This major problem cannot be solved by the Garda alone. The public must co-operate and a bond must be developed so we can save people from being murdered in their homes.

Mr. Hayes

I would like to share my time with Senators Doyle and Howard.

An Cathaoirleach

Is that agreed? Agreed.

Mr. Hayes

I am outraged at the events which took place in my constituency of Dublin South-West yesterday. I am as shocked and horrorified as the local community where that murder took place but murder is something we have become used to hearing about in recent months. This is the twelfth murder of its type in the past 18 months and it is a serious matter.

As a House of the Oireachtas we must reflect on it and implement a series of measures to deal with this problem. There is a need for greater law enforcement. There are good laws on our Statute Book, many of them introduced by the present Minister for Justice, Deputy Owen, but unless they are enforced they will have no effect.

A number of months ago the Minister embarked upon a radical redeployment and reorganisation of the Garda Síochána. The intention was to bring local accountability to the Garda force. Divisions would be more locally based and could respond in a much more meaningful way to problems as they arose in communities. I hope the senior management members of the Garda Síochána are living in those communities now that they have been redeployed. A number of colleagues and members of the public have said that unless senior management in the Garda live for seven days a week in the localities in which they work, we will not get the required results.

Collaboration between the State agencies from the Department of Social Welfare to the Revenue Commissioners, the Garda and Europol must be strengthened. I welcome the Minister's comments. She said that this will be a major focus of Ireland's Presidency of the EU. We need to strengthen both law enforcement and collaboration between police forces.

Organised crime is a problem in Dublin where crime figures are ten times higher than in any other part of the country. While Operation Shannon was successful and gardaí from Dublin divisions had to be deployed to the Border, there is a perception that more resources are required in the Dublin area to deal specifically with the hardened criminals. We saw the results of their activities yesterday on the streets of Dublin.

I welcome the decision of the Minister to bring forward these regulations. They represent one small piece of the jigsaw but when they are enforced they will have an impact. Co-operation at all levels is required if we are to resolve this problem.

Mr. Doyle

I was present yesterday when the Seanad, in sombre mood, paid tribute to the late Veronica Guerin and I am pleased the Minister was able to attend today to debate this motion. I understand the Garda Commissioner is treating the murder of Veronica Guerin as if a Minister had been assassinated, and that there are hundreds of detectives on this case. The investigating officers have been overwhelmed by the support they received from the public. That support is essential in helping the gardaí to overcome this terrible problem in our society.

The drugs problem, and its link with areas of deprivation in Dublin, has been briefly mentioned. I understand that 80 per cent of people who have a drugs problem are unemployed. The State spends vast sums of money helping addicts and some of them respond to the treatment programmes. When people do, they must be given employment because they are the jewel in the crown. If they do not, they will fall into their old habits again.

I cannot understand how the money laundering laws here are not known. It frightens me that criminals can invest the proceeds of crime in a building society because every time I go into my bank I see a notice on the counter reminding me of the money laundering regulations.

I am glad the regulation being debated will enable Irish courts enforce foreign orders for the confiscation of money, but there is a misunderstanding amongst the public about the position. Under the Criminal Justice Act, 1994, our courts are empowered, on conviction of a person for drugs or other serious offences, to make an order confiscating property which might come from that source of activity. A gentleman was sentenced to 20 years imprisonment last week and a stay was put on the sentence. I do not think the judge made any confiscation order or inquiries about assets. The public want criminals put away and at the same time their assets confiscated. It is important that should happen.

I was frightened to hear the figures quoted by Senator Hayes that 12 people had been executed in 18 months with no chance to make any plea for themselves, shot down in cold blood. Society cannot accept that. In the 1970's, a number of people in our society operated outside the law and the State introduced new laws to deal effectively with them. A number of people are operating outside the law and the Government will have to consider new laws to deal with them. They are evil and must be exorcised from our society.

Mr. Howard

I welcome the opportunity to speak in support of this motion. I compliment the Minister on the contribution she made during her term of office in the fight against crime and on the number of Acts she has put on to the Statute Book.

Like colleagues I salute the late Veronica Guerin for her courage and tenacity in her pursuit against wrongdoing and criminal activities in our society. I am concerned at the headline in the Irish Independent this morning, “We know who did it but they are untouchable.” We should, as legislators, ask ourselves what our responsibilities are if that is the case. I recognise the responsibilities of the Minister, and they are many, and the constraints under which she works. I support the motion in so far as the Minister has told us it represents a further building exercise in the defence of ordinary citizens against criminal elements in our society.

I welcome the provision for confiscation and restraining orders on the assets of criminals but neither confiscation or restraining orders can be placed in the absence of a conviction. Proof is required to obtain a conviction. A number of speakers, including the Minister, said there should not be knee-jerk reactions and that we should not make rash decisions in the heat of the moment. We must remember that yesterday's victim was a courageous woman who simply refused to be intimidated. Are there others in this State such as gardaí, officials of the Revenue Commissioners and, perhaps, politicians who have been intimidated? If there are, were they as courageous as yesterday's victim?

As I am not a Minister, I am at liberty to make certain observations which a Minister cannot make. A number of my colleagues questioned the commitment of our enforcement procedures. I do not have time to develop further on that point but I have made my feelings clear. I recognise the public call for emergency legislation if required. The mood of the public is for the enactment of emergency legislation to take criminal elements who are a threat to society out of circulation.

I am sure people will describe such a suggestion as draconian but the safety and freedom of law abiding citizens is at risk and I make no apology for advancing that. It is not a knee-jerk reaction. It is an opinion which I have held for a considerable time and we are rapidly moving to the point in criminal activity in this society where that may well be the only option left.

Mr. Kelleher

I abhor yesterday's atrocity, the assassination of Veronica Guerin and I extend my sympathy to her family. My views have not been changed as a result of the executions of Veronica Guerin, Garda McCabe and Josie Dwyer. I have held them for a long time. At some stage we will have to act and ensure all arms of the State are used to protect its citizens.

I mentioned the bail laws specifically. When the bail laws were introduced early this century, the State did not face the current problems. This State is under siege from criminals who have no respect for law, order and life, and the people want and demand change. It is time the Minister and the Government did something about the bail laws to ensure people cannot get out on bail and commit crime knowing full well that if they are sentenced, the sentences will run concurrently and they will be released in a short period of time. That is the reality.

A drug dealer was jailed recently. He had been out on bail for several years and had committed major offences in the meantime. That is one element of the problem which could be tackled immediately. It would send a strong message to criminals that they are not welcome in society.

On a more basic note, to which colleagues have already referred, the Garda Síochána is under-resourced. Having said that, the gardaí are not using their time as they should. For example, according to recent media reports, a garda got on the Aran Islands ferry, went to one of the islands as a backpacker and set up tent for the night. He then donned his uniform and raided three island pubs. I do not condone anybody breaking the law, but we must prioritise. That is a total waste of Garda man-hours. It ties a garda up in court for days trying to get prosecutions against publicans and defendants. That drives a wedge between the community and the Garda, and it is time we told the Garda top brass that their resources must be prioritised and that they must tackle the issues which cause cancer and decay in society. That is just one incident. Nobody condones people staying in pubs all night, but the vast majority of people would suggest, as would gardaí if the matter was left to their discretion, that raiding a pub on the Aran Islands is not a priority.

When Josie Dwyer was beaten to death by a vigilante gang I condemned the killing in this House but it is a symptom of the malaise in society. These people are saying in a very aggressive manner that they have been let down by their legislators and by successive Governments. I said this when a Fianna Fáil Minister sat in this House and I will continue to say it until such time as we have sent out a clear message that such actions are not acceptable.

We can talk about legislation forever. I have spoken on Bills in this House but there is no point in passing legislation if we cannot prioritise resources for the enforcement of legislation, convicting criminals and ensuring they serve their full prison sentences. People on the street say that crime pays. They are not convinced that criminals are afraid of the present process for convicting criminals and ensuring they are detained in prison to pay their debt to society. The vast majority of people would express that view openly.

The murder of Detective Garda Jerry McCabe signalled that there are people in our midst who have no respect for the efforts of this State to ensure the protection of society. I am not convinced that people in the Department of Justice and the high echelons of authority are au fait with reality. I am not convinced that the officials in the Department of Justice, who have advised successive Ministers over the years, know of the realities of areas like Darndale, Knocknaheeny and South Hill because they do not live in or pass through such places. We ask the Garda to move in and try to protect people in these areas but they do not have a hope. They are under-resourced and the resources at their disposal are devoted to other matters which drive a wedge between them and the community. The Aran Islands episode is an example of the farcical waste of Garda resources.

We must return to the real issues. First, we must send out a strong message. The right to silence and the bail laws are an impediment to the Garda achieving successful prosecutions. How somebody can be detained, brought in for questioning and look blankly at a wall for 48 hours is incomprehensible. Gardaí have lost faith in the present system because trying to secure the conviction of these professional criminals is difficult. It is much easier to secure the conviction of some poor Joe Soap who has broken the law by staying in the pub half an hour after closing time or driving home after three pints. Such people will speak to the Garda and it makes the job easier. However, the State protects the right to silence of a detainee who sits in a room and looks blankly at the wall. That matter and the bail laws should be examined.

Will the Minister tell the House of the Government's view on the bail laws? I want to know as a citizen and a legislator. All the people who placed flowers outside the gates of the Oireachtas today want to know the Minister's position and that of Government on this issue.

We have spoken about the role of the Revenue staff on numerous occasions and the Minister has set up a task force to examine closer relations between the Garda and the Revenue Commissioners. After yesterday's tragedy there are few Revenue staff who could put their hand on their heart and say they would investigate those people. The fear abroad is obvious. If a garda can be gunned down in Limerick and a journalist can be murdered while investigating the dark side of the criminal world, how could a Revenue official say he or she would investigate these people? A task force is fine, but the Garda and the Revenue Commissioners must set up a strike force which is not afraid and has the full support of the State, including, if necessary, the armed resources of the State. There is no point in sending out a Revenue official in a suit and tie who joined the Civil Service years ago thinking it was a nice job. I do not believe such a person will walk into Darndale and investigate tax aspects of criminal activity. That issue must be tackled.

The Minister has tried to address the matter but I question whether measures have been implemented to ensure positive results. If something is not done in the near future, we will have sent out a dangerous signal domestically and internationally that Ireland is soft on crime and cannot tackle its problems. There have been 12 executions in the last 18 months.

Mrs. Owen

Since August 1994.

Mr. Kelleher

There have been 12 executions in a population of 4 million people. That is an alarming statistic. We have done nothing in the meantime to tackle these people and take them out of society. If we do not do so, we will have failed society. We will have failed the decent honourable people who get up every day, go to work, pay their taxes, raise their families and want to live a fruitful life. We sit in here cocooned from the realities of the world outside.

I once sent an invitation to the Minister's office inviting her to a night club in Cork to see at first hand the drugs problems and how they affect young people. She replied that she was aware of the problems. I do not question her awareness of the problem. The public knows that little is being done about it. Young people take soft and hard drugs on a regular basis and engage in petty, illegal activity to sustain their habit. We have done little to encourage them to stay off drugs.

We have a haphazard educational programme where gardaí address local parents councils, community associations or schools on the drug problem. There is no coherent national education strategy to deal with the drug problem. I hope somebody in Government will do something constructive. We must introduce new legislation and provide resources to implement it. There is a lack of prison spaces and the gardaí are unable to get successful prosecutions because of people's right to silence and the bail laws. We must introduce a programme to educate young people about the danger of being involved in drugs as there is no point in doing so when they have become addicted to them.

Methadone treatment programmes have been set up in Dublin, but they are under-resourced and there is a waiting list. It is unacceptable that when a junkie asks a local welfare officer for help to get on a methadone treatment programme. he is told he must wait six months. They are crying out for help which they need today, not tomorrow. We have failed them all. I do not know where I will be in 25 years but if I am in this House and nothing has been done in the meantime, I will be an embarrassed public representative.

Mr. Farrelly

I welcome the opportunity to speak on this motion today. Unfortunately, we are discussing it under a cloud of great sadness as a result of the tragic events yesterday. I extend my sympathy to the family and friends of Veronica Guerin.

Many people will say that what happened yesterday was waiting to happen. Actions by politicians over the past number of years helped to bring about such a situation. Recently, politicians introduced legislation which granted tax amnesties to drug barons who then legitimately used their ill-gotten gains. Many Members spoke about the huge houses these drug barons purchased with funds from the tax amnesty. Nobody questioned where the money came from for the purchase of such properties.

There are 11,000 members in the Garda Síochána and they have spent the past two years in two or three separate organisations. No one Minister for Justice will solve the crime problem unless all those involved in upholding the law work together. Many people who were good friends in one organisation are now not talking to each other. I will support whatever the Government proposes in the next week or two, but unless everyone works together on the same team, we will not win the battle. Many things seem to be going wrong at present which means the criminals are winning the battle.

The Revenue Commissioners spend time carrying out audits on people's homes throughout the country. There are at least three or four houses in every new housing estate in parts of this city which have been bought for cash, probably from the proceeds of the sale of drugs, and which have not required the purchaser to produce identification. When these properties are registered, the Revenue Commissioners should identify the owners and find out where the money came from to purchase them.

This crisis did not start on 14 December 1994, as certain people in this House believe. The drug barons have been around for many years and have been aided and abetted by Governments who granted them tax amnesties. It is time the Garda was given powers to say a certain person is dealing in drugs, in the same way it can when dealing with the IRA, so that the 30 or 40 main drug barons can be interned until their assets are checked. I received 15 telephone calls in one hour this morning from people who want this to happen.

I have no doubt the Minister and the Government will take on board many such suggestions. I do not accept that nothing can be done or that this Minister has done nothing, as many people said. Many different Bills have been introduced recently. It is not possible, of course, to deal with those matters without the full co-operation of everybody involved — the courts, judges, the Garda and the public, who are more important than anyone else. I take the point made by Senator Kelleher that in some cases goodwill breaks down when petty things are done about after hours drinking or whatever. If an elderly man who goes out for a few pints, as he has done for the last 25 or 30 years, is breathalysed on the way home, people in small villages will say such actions break down the goodwill of the local community.

However, we have gone a long way beyond that. We are dealing with people who have no respect, not even for themselves or their families, as we read last weekend in our national newspapers. Those of us who had the opportunity listened this morning to the wife of one of these gangsters — although one of my colleagues called him a gentleman — describing the punishment he inflicted on his family and his 85 year old father. It is unbelievable that a person could mete out this type of punishment to members of his family, some of whom are so unhealthy that their lives are in danger, in promoting his business.

I condemn what happened yesterday. From what is being told to me and from what I hear on the airwaves, there is a need to seriously consider locking up a substantial number of these individuals. Every piece of property they own should be identified and confiscated and their ill gotten goods should be used by the State to rehabilitate drug users and so on.

Some Members stated it is the job of the Minister and the Government to protect all young people. As a parent, like many other Members, I believe parents have a responsibility to instil in young people that they should not take drugs. I know it is not always possible to convince them of that. The problem is a double edged sword and one individual will not solve it, but we can collectively help to solve it. I hope the unanimous support and sympathy shown by the people of Limerick will be shown to the Garda and Government when the Government introduces further legislation to take care of these gangsters.

Of course, people will say there has been too much rhetoric and not enough action. The time for talking is over and the time for action is very much with us. Although we may be seen to be unfair to individuals who are rounded up and brought in for interrogation, the public requires us to take this State back into our hands and away from the gangsters who are maiming and killing people almost on a daily basis.

Mr. Enright

In speaking on this motion, we are conscious of the brutal murder of Veronica Guerin yesterday. I was saddened by it and deeply angry that cowardly criminals decided to take the life of this courageous journalist. The Taoiseach, the Minister for Justice and every member of the Government — and, I am certain, every Member — are fully committed to ensuring every effort is made, and all the necessary resources provided, to enable the Garda Síochána to track down, bring to justice and convict the people responsible for this crime — the two people on the motorbike who fired the shot, but also those who planned and plotted this crime. They were the small fry in a very big chain and the people who plotted that crime gave it a great deal of thought and time. We must ensure those who organised it can never plan further events of that nature.

The regulations we are discussing this afternoon may seem unimportant in the circumstances because of the recent heinous murders of Detective Garda McCabe and Veronica Guerin. However, the regulations are very important because they will enable our courts to confiscate the proceeds of crime and to enforce court orders made abroad where people have been convicted of crimes. The State will now be able to obtain these moneys by confiscating the property of such people under order of the court. It is correct that that is the case.

These regulations go a stage further, they bring in a provision for a restraint order on people who may move their money or assets in anticipation of a confiscating order being made. It is very easy nowadays to move money from one jurisdiction to another. The restraining order will mean that all moneys will be immediately frozen and a confiscating order can then be made. I welcome the Minister's decision in regard to that matter.

Since the Criminal Justice Act, 1994, was passed, I understand over 300 reports have been made by banks and finance companies of moneys which they felt should be reported to the Garda Síochána. A sum in excess of £25 million is already lined up to be confiscated. This is a very positive measure which will help in some small way to tie down some of the criminals who perpetrate such heinous crimes.

I welcome a great deal of the action the Minister for Justice has taken to increase prison spaces, which I agree is a priority. I further welcome the changes she made in regard to Garda structures and the new regional command structure. This is very important and it is essential this work continues. It is also essential that the new judges to whom the Minister referred are appointed as soon as possible.

I also welcome the new Drug Trafficking Bill which the Minister is bringing in as it is essential and important. It proposes that a person can be detained for up to seven days. When the Bill is passed, it will be possible to arrest drug barons and the organisers of the drug trade and question them for a period of up to seven days. There is a safeguard, of course, in that the Garda Síochána will have to apply to the High Court for permission to extend the order. Nevertheless, this is essential. If, some years ago, somebody in Ireland sought a seven days detention order there would have been demonstrations on the streets. However, nowadays people demand action of this kind. I welcome, therefore, the steps taken by the Minister which will be welcomed throughout the country.

Following the death of Detective Garda McCabe there has been a flood of information to the Garda Síochána. Rarely has the Garda received such support and co-operation from the public. People abhorred the murder of Detective Garda McCabe and the injuries sustained by Detective Garda O'Sullivan. Nowadays people are prepared to say what they feel, they were outraged at what happened and will support the Government in this Bill.

I support the Minister's moves to amend the bail laws. A constitutional amendment is required. The Minister must be careful in drafting the referendum legislation because some previous referendums were rushed. I am sure there will be all party agreement on her efforts in this regard.

The Minister will proceed in ensuring that there will be an increase in prison spaces. Part of the overcrowding problem in Mountjoy Prison has arisen because so many people have been convicted on drugs related offences. It is very easy to smuggle drugs into the prison from the city centre. The Minister made a splendid effort to reduce the amount of drugs going into the prison but it is essential that they are stopped. The use of Spike Island, or Fort Mitchell as it is known, as a designated prison for drug barons or for those convicted of drugs related offences would act as a great deterrent. In view of the fact that the prison is located on an island it would be difficult to bring in drugs. The situation would be much easier to manage. It would be seen as both a deterrent and as a place of punishment, which is what those involved in drug trafficking and racketeering require. They should suffer for the havoc they wreak on so many decent people, especially the young and vulnerable, whose lives are damaged.

Veronica Guerin was a dedicated journalist. With her pen she struck terror into the heart of drugs barons and criminals. I am sure journalists in Ireland will be stiffened in their resolve to ensure they continue her work and continue to delve into the workings of the criminal underworld in Dublin and throughout the country. She will not have lost her life in vain if her work is carried on and I am confident that Paul Williams of the Sunday World and other crime correspondents will have the courage to do so. Following her murder and that of Detective Garda McCabe I am equally confident that the Garda Síochána will be stiffened in its resolve to ensure the murderers are convicted and put behind bars permanently.

We face a tough period ahead. When one strikes at the Garda Síochána and members of the press one is striking at our democratic institutions. However, people rally together in difficult times. Veronica Guerin was the first journalist to be shot dead in Ireland. The country went through difficult times previously, during the civil war and periods of internment. However, at no stage was a journalist shot dead, although on occasions printing presses were broken and damage was done to property.

Those involved in these crimes have utter contempt for the Houses of the Oireachtas and disdain for the public. However, people have always had the courage and ability to stand up and take on those who threaten our democracy. They did not succeed in the past and will not succeed now.

I am pleased the Minister has organised co-operation between the Revenue, customs and the Garda. The Revenue Commissioners and social welfare officers have been intimidated and threatened, as were Veronica Guerin and other journalists. Members, including myself, have been threatened in the past. Veronica Guerin said she was in this world but once. She had courage, so also have all Members of this House. We must work with the Garda Síochána to ensure that the freedom of the press and the democracy we cherish so much are protected.

I listened this morning to the "Gay Byrne Show" with Joe Duffy on radio. I understood the anger of those telephoning his show. I and every other Member of this House were similarly angry at what had happened. The programme took approximately 90 minutes. A woman who had a tragic life was interviewed. I listened with sadness to the account of the beatings she had received, but I was taken aback by her description of going to the bathroom, getting a razor and stabbing her husband in the chest. This type of discussion was not proper on the airwaves where housewives, children and people of all ages listen. It glorified assaults and injuries in its own quiet way.

RTE makes its own decisions; it has an independent authority. However, what happened this morning was an abuse of the airwaves. I do not intend to run down Mr. Duffy; I wish him every success, but he must be much more careful in his programming because it is in the interests of everybody that such descriptions of violence are not glorified on radio.

Members of this House represent people from all walks of life. Those who voted for us can be assured that all Members will put their shoulder to the wheel to ensure that whatever legislation and resources are necessary will be provided.

Mr. Fitzgerald

I support the motion. I have always supported any measure that any Government took to bring perpetrators of crime to justice and to deal with them in a proper manner. Our minds today dwell on the murders which took place recently, particularly the killings of Veronica Guerin yesterday and Detective Garda Jerry McCabe in Adare. They were good servants of their country in their own ways and their lives were blown away. That is the term used in criminal circles. A huge amount of flowers and messages are at the gates of Leinster House today in memory of Veronica Guerin. However, the messages are as much for Members of the House as the family of Ms Guerin. By placing flowers at the gates, the public is telling politicians that it is not satisfied with the way criminals are being treated.

The court briefs in one's local paper are amazing. They include cases where farmers were fined £40 or £50 because their tractors were not taxed, and many other minor matters. The person broke the law if the vehicle was untaxed, but it is a minor offence in comparison to murder and the other atrocities being committed. These atrocities are destroying society and our young people because drugs become more widely available on the streets as a result and the numbers taking them increase every year. This is why I support the regulations.

As Senator Kelleher said, the Garda should have priorities in terms of minor offences. The House and the Government should also have priorities and ensure that whatever resources are required to stamp out this evil in society are found immediately. People are wrong if they say resources are not available. If £100 million can be provided to pay fines imposed by the EU in Brussels in relation to agriculture, then £100 million can be found to prevent crime and give the Garda the necessary resources, if that is what people want. I am not blaming the Government, but if resources are needed it should find them and give them to the Garda to enable it to combat crime.

It is galling for people who are fined £30 or £40 for having no tax on their tractors to compare their minor errors with the events yesterday. Before a garda summons a person for not having their vehicle taxed — I refer in particular to tax rather than insurance — it is easy for them to check whether the person concerned taxes their car regularly. If a garda checked my records he would note that, from the first day I drove, my cars have been taxed. They were not taxed for two months on many occasions, but I always paid the arrears. It was not that I deliberately did not tax them; I may have been out of the country or something else may have happened.

People read in the newspaper today that the criminals are known, but they are untouchable. This should not be the case. Many statements were made earlier and the Minister was annoyed, but nobody set out deliberately to annoy her. This side realises she travelled through the night and is tired. She returned to the aftermath of yesterday's events and I sympathise with her in that regard. I also support her efforts, but her efforts and those of the House are not enough because the problem is worsening. If ignorance exists, it is that people are ignorant of the crisis which exists and which must be stamped out.

I add my voice to the contributions made earlier and I concur with the views expressed. Interesting suggestions were made during the debate by all sides and they should be followed up. There must be more co-operation between the Garda and the public. I said previously in the House that many of the laws introduced crucify honest people who make up 95 per cent of the population. Ministers from my party also introduced legislation which crucified ordinary people who are not criminals.

People are not criminals if they do not have tax on their cars or they commit other similar minor offences, such as travelling at five miles an hour over the speed limit. I was recently caught travelling into Castleisland at 1 a.m. at 39 miles an hour in a 30 miles an hour zone. The matter was followed up and I was fined £25. At the same time, almost to the hour, £60,000 of cigarettes were stolen from my brother's shop in Dingle and there was no trace of the culprits. This is an example of why the public is annoyed. I am comparing different crimes and what happens.

I hope my comments in support of the motion and the efforts to stamp out crime will be fruitful and that Veronica Guerin did not die in vain. Everybody will do all they can to find the perpetrators of her murder and all the other murders which have been committed.

Mrs. Taylor-Quinn

The motion is appropriate. It was placed on the Order Paper last week and it is a reflection of the work of the Minister for Justice. The Criminal Justice Act was put in place in 1994 but it was useless until enabling regulations were enacted. Since taking office the Minister has put three sets of regulations in place in relation to restraint, confiscation and the extension of this order. The Minister has done enormous work since she came into office. It is unfortunate that the situation has become so serious recently and that the finger is being pointed at her.

The level of crime has increased in recent years and the tragic assassination of Veronica Guerin yesterday has focused the minds of the people. Thousands of pounds were paid to people to assassinate her. How and where did they get the money? The people in a position to pay thousands of pounds to assassinate Veronica Guerin have accumulated money over many years of criminal activity. They have managed to infiltrate our society and establish themselves to a position where they are now quite powerful because of their money. It gives them the power to mobilise themselves and, in many instances, to live in some of the most salubrious parts of Dublin and of the country.

The biggest tribute that could be paid to Veronica Guerin, and the tremendous work she did in a few short years in highlighting crime, is to ensure that the perpetrators of her assassination are brought to justice. All the other areas in which she has done investigative journalism must be hotly pursued and the people concerned ferreted out and brought to justice. The Minister for Justice will have the full support of this and the other House and of the people in pursuing a strong line on this occasion. The softly-softly approach is no longer tolerable.

I rang somebody yesterday when I heard of Veronica Guerin's murder and was asked what was the difference between her murder and those of so many others. We must question how we react to different situations and murders. A view has emerged in recent times that if a criminal gang murders another criminal, then that is the bad boys taking care of each other and there is almost an acquiescence in its acceptability. The murders of Veronica Guerin and Garda McCabe are far more serious because they are an act against the State, an act of treason. They are an offence against our basic institution of democracy, the freedom of speech, movement, investigation and writing. I classify both murders as acts of treason. We have to reflect on how this State views, and what legislation we have in relation to, people who commit treason. The Government's responsibility is to look on these murders as acts of treason and to take the necessary hard sanctions.

Many people across the country are aware of situations and know of activities but are fearful of talking to the Garda in case some action will be taken against them. However, they should have the courage to get whatever information they have, however unimportant it might seem, to the right source because it might assist in bringing the criminals to justice.

We have an excellent Garda force doing tremendous work and we must understand that they operate within certain limitations. We have discussed in the past the idea of an armed Garda force and that was not an acceptable proposition for most people. It has been a source of discussion nationally and within various political parties. We now have to ask if there is a need to increase the number of armed detectives. I believe there is, the Government will have to investigate that aspect and I hope that, in their deliberations in the next few days, it will be looked at.

I am dissatisfied with the level of involvement between the Army and the Garda. The Garda should call more often on the resources, support and technical and military assistance of the Army in various situations. There is a need for the Departments of Defence and Justice to look more closely at greater co-operation. We know the Army cannot act until they are called in by the Garda and that must be seriously looked at.

The Irish Independent said today it knows who killed Veronica Guerin, who employed the people to do it, who masterminded it, etc. If it does, has it given the information to the Garda? Will it feel obliged by its privilege as press reporters to withhold it? If that is the situation, what will we do about it? Will we change the laws to enable it to give that type of privileged information in such situations to bring people to justice? If the Government proceeds to bring in much tougher measures and legislation, and I hope the coming legislation in both Houses of the Oireachtas will be tough, severe and aimed at bringing these hooligans and savages who have no regard for life, people or property to justice, it is imperative that the media in those situations will not cry about civil liberties and the basic intrusion on the rights of this, that and the other person. The reality is that everyone has the right to life and, in recent times, a number of people have not been allowed that right. An intrusion on that right is intolerable and any action the Government can take to ensure it is protected will be welcome. If it intrudes mildly on other rights, then I would not get hugely worried because our first obligation is to ensure and establish the right to life. There is a huge responsibility on the Government and I hope that the Minister for Justice will get full support from members of the Cabinet to bring in whatever resources are necessary, whether it is amending or new legislation, additional finance, more prison places etc. It is a difficult time for her and everybody involved.

The order before us today is welcome, freezing assets and giving the power to freeze assets if there is any attempt to transfer them to a foreign jurisdiction or freezing them in a foreign jurisdiction. You often wonder how people can afford to buy two, three, four and five properties when there is no obvious means of income or earnings apart from social welfare payments? It is important that all these cases are looked at and that all the people who are not in a position to show where their resources come from should have their cases fully investigated. This regulation will enable the Minister and the Garda Síochána to take that route. The Minister has appointed quite a number of new judges to the Circuit Court and the High Court. I welcome the fact that she will also appoint additional District Court judges in the near future. Those appointments will free up the court system, enabling cases to be heard more quickly.

The sensitive issue of bail has been a source of much discussion. The bail laws need to be substantially reformed and changed. I hope the Minister will be in a position shortly to propose an amendment to the Constitution in relation to the bail laws. I urge the Government to act quickly and bring that matter before the Houses of the Oireachtas. It is a sensitive area because of the constitutional dimension and the implications concerning rights and freedom of the individual. It is one that must be carefully examined.

There is plenty of expertise both within the Department of Justice and the Office of the Attorney General. In addition, many constitutional lawyers would be in a position to examine this matter quickly and efficiently. The Government should get on with it and let us have the necessary legislation sooner rather than later.

While I do not want to be political, I find it rather disingenuous of the Opposition to heap criticism on the Minister for Justice who has done so much positive work in a short period. She has put in place a lot of regulations enabling legislation to be acted upon. The Opposition should not talk so ridiculously, particularly given that what is happening now is as a result of the lack of action for years by previous Ministers for Justice. The Opposition should take a more responsible position on this issue and stop carrying on with negative and destructive criticism just because they feel there is some political gain to be made. It is politically miserable to try to make hay from the misfortunes of those who have been distressed by serious crimes.

I welcome the introduction of these regulations which will enable the Minister to proceed further. They will also allow legislation to be used which otherwise would be useless.

Minister of State at the Department of Social Welfare (Mr. Durkan)

On behalf of the Minister for Justice, I thank everyone who contributed to the debate for giving her an opportunity to respond in a positive fashion to a very serious issue. No words of ours can adequately describe the degree of revulsion which we all feel in the aftermath of the cold blooded and callous murder of a journalist, who happened to be a young mother going about her daily work. Following the murder of Detective Garda McCabe a couple of weeks ago, it is a particularly significant time in Irish history. There is a clear indication in both events of the total contempt of the criminal class for the people, this House, the Garda Síochána and other institutions of the State.

To ponder upon the sequence of events that have taken place over the past number of years is not a politicisation of the issue. We are all to blame to some extent for what has gone on. We have failed to recognise the changes taking place in society and the degree to which we have been held in contempt, as well as being held to ransom and ridicule by criminal elements. Week after week we threw up our hands in despair at the number of events involving murder, attempted murder and other violent acts which are unacceptable to this or any other society.

It behoves us to recognise that the Minister for Justice is doing everything possible to array the forces of law and order and focus them in a fashion to deal adequately with the situation unfolding before us. It is not the responsibility of one Minister, one Department or one public representative to deal with the enormity of the task that lies ahead.

This morning while listening to the "Gay Byrne Show" on radio, I was not amused to hear a natural reaction from a member of the public who said there was not sufficient anger in the Houses of the Oireachtas. This is not a matter for anger, it is a matter in respect of which there is need for a clear, carefully worded, carefully thought out and dispassionate response. While such a response cannot be formulated overnight, it must be fundamental in dealing with the problems that have arisen over the past number of years.

An angry response by this House is not required. The response must address the issue adequately. The institutions of State, including the Oireachtas, and the people generally must not be held to ransom or ridiculed by those bent on a life of lawlessness. The reverse must be the case. Those who are bent on a life of crime, including intimidation, violence and murder, must be under siege in future if this democratic society is to survive.

The Minister is anxious to respond to the positive prompting of this House. Likewise the Government is determined to support her efforts to deal with the situation that has arisen. In respect of this convention Ireland is responding positively and even though not all our European Union colleagues have yet responded in a similar fashion, it is their intention to do so. I thank Senators for their supportive comments and I hope the tenor of this debate will be instrumental in enabling the Government to deal clearly with the situation that has arisen.

Mr. Mulcahy

I thank the Minister for coming to the House. I also want to formally put on record the fact that the Fianna Fáil Party was happy to support these regulations today.

An Cathaoirleach

The Senator has made his contribution and cannot contribute again.

Question put and agreed to.

An Cathaoirleach

When is it proposed to sit again?

Mr. Manning

Tomorrow at 10.30 a.m.

The Seanad adjourned at 5.10 p.m. until 10.30 a.m. on Friday, 28 June 1996.