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Seanad Éireann debate -
Friday, 28 Jun 1996

Vol. 148 No. 6

Civil Liability (Amendment) Bill, 1996: Committee and Final Stages.

Question proposed: "That section 1 stand part of the Bill."

With regard to the questions of relationships and marriage, the Minister indicated that changing times meant that we would have to take a different view of the implications of persons living together. Where the first marriage has not been dissolved and one of the parties to the marriage is involved in a second relationship and has children in that relationship, how would a genuine claim be treated? Good legislation has been enacted over the years but from time to time the interpretation we put on it differs from the interpretation in court cases.

Does the Bill cover accidents that occur in other states involving people who were emigrants, but whose normal place of residence is Ireland, where their spouses and families live, and where the accident was the consequence of a wrongful act? Similarly does the Bill cover those who are wrongfully imprisoned? For example, a well known person was wrongfully imprisoned in England and died in captivity. Does the Bill apply where the case could be made that such a person died in consequence of his wrongful imprisonment? Would there be compensation for his wife and family?

Dealing with the last question first, the person making the claim may have problems with proofs, but if it could be proved that injury was caused or death ensued from a wrongful act and if this could be satisfactorily established to a court, a claim could well arise. It would depend on what the facts were as established to the satisfaction of the court. There could be difficulties regarding proofs but it would have to be examined in the context of the circumstances of the individual case. It is always difficult to give an opinion on individual cases without having full information. However, broadly speaking, if an injury or death results from a wrongful act a claim arises.

Will the courts decide?

Ultimately the courts will decide, but evidence is required for proof. It is not determined on say so. Hard evidence from people with knowledge of the facts would be required and their evidence would have to stand up.

The second question the Senator raised goes to the question of the venue in which a claim may or can be brought. This is a complex area of law. It deals with aspects of international law where these claims can be brought, etc. Generally, they would be brought in the country where the wrongdoing was done or where the wrongdoer resides or carries on business. For example, reference was made to the Lockerbie disaster. The ensuing claims would have to be brought in the jurisdiction where the accident happened, although circumstances may arise where a claim could also be maintained as an alternative in the state where the airline had its headquarters, where its registered office was located. This is a complex area of the law not concerned with this Bill. It involves questions of international as well as national law.

The Senator's question on relationships is very important and relevant to the Bill. When the Bill is passed into law, if a person's marriage was still subsistent but that person was living on a permanent basis with somebody else, two aspects of the claim would have to be dealt with separately. The first would be concerned with the claim for mental distress. The existing figure of £7,500, being increased by the Bill to £15,000, are maximum figures. They are not automatic but are the maximum the courts may award. They are directed to the mental distress the people suffered. A court may hold that, so far as mental distress is concerned, if the husband and wife had been separated for a long time and had gone their separate ways, the mental distress element may be considerably less than the maximum figure provided for, or perhaps not exist at all. That is a matter for the court to decide, depending on the circumstances. Although they were separated and living apart, what a husband or wife could recover under the financial loss category depends on whether there was financial loss. If subsisting maintenance payments were due from one to the other, although they were separated, the issue of compensation for the loss of the maintenance rights must be considered.

The Bill provides that when the divorce category comes into play, damages for mental distress will not be applicable. A divorcee will not be entitled to anything under the mental distress category because the relationship is over.

Senator Fitzgerald mentioned children but that aspect does not come into the equation. Children are children and their rights are rights, irrespective of with whom they are living. If the parent of a child, either marital or non-marital — it makes no difference — is killed by a wrongful act of another person, the child will be entitled to compensation under both categories, mental distress and financial loss. I hope these points are helpful.

Question put and agreed to.
SECTION 2.
Question proposed: "That section 2 stand part of the Bill."

The Minister may have mentioned this aspect and I apologise if I am repeating a point. Why was the figure of £7,500 increased to £15,000? In 1961, £7,500 would have bought a house in Mount Merrion, but one would not get far with £15,000 today. Why was a proportional increase not made? I apologise if I am covering ground already covered; I suspect that is the case.

The Senator is not doing so. When the Act was introduced in 1961, the figure was £1,000.

I apologise; that would not buy a house in Mount Merrion.

Twenty years later, in 1981, it was increased to £7,500. The measure involves an update from 1981 and, according to our calculations, that works out at approximately £15,000. An argument could be made to increase it further but, in due deference to the compensation culture to which Senators referred, I was cautious in terms of doing no more than updating it in accordance with the cost of living index figure.

Question put and agreed to.
Section 3 agreed to.
SECTION 4.
Question proposed: "That section 4 stand part of the Bill."

My query relates to section 4 (1) (a) (a) (iii). I received a letter this morning from Mr. Philip Joyce, a solicitor in Killenaule, Thurles, in which he complimented the Minister. He gave me credit because my name was on the legislation, but I must give credit where it is due, to the Minister for the publication of the Bill. The letter states:

I note that the Bill provides that compensation for mental distress will be paid to a person who, though not married, has been living with the deceased person for three years or more provided that they had been living with them as husband and wife. I think that in this provision the word "and" should be amended to read "or" as it is impossible for a person to live as husband and wife.

I suspect he has a point. It should be husband or wife; a person cannot live as husband and wife.

I will ask the parliamentary draftsman to examine that point.

Question put and agreed to.
Section 5 agreed to.
Title agreed to.
Bill reported without amendment and received for final consideration.
Question proposed: "That the Bill do now pass."

I thank the Minister for enlightening the House and pointing out some facts which did not relate to the Bill but to the compensation culture. I agree with the Minister that everybody who is hurt or maimed seeks compensation. The Minister's comments, that it would be much cheaper for local authorities, factories and others to look after their business, were wise. I thank him. It is good to see him in the House. He is always welcome.

I thank the Minister for introducing the Bill. Although I disagree with him, his comments were most interesting. Perhaps he misread the word "award" as "reward". The number of industrial accidents in Ireland is much lower than in the UK. I have figures which prove that point but I will not quote them now. The Bill is welcome and I thank the Minister for putting it through speedily. This is the fifth Bill the Minister has introduced in the Seanad and I thank him for that also.

I congratulate the Minister for introducing this minor but important legislation. I ask him to bear in mind the points I made on Second Stage regarding the law in general in terms of redress and justice. The issue of how the system develops should be considered.

I thank Senators on all sides for their constructive contributions. Many interesting points were made and I will examine them and, where appropriate, refer them to other Ministers. I also thank the staff in my Department who worked on the Bill.

Question put and agreed to.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

When is it proposed to sit again?

Next Tuesday at 2.30 p.m.

The Seanad adjourned at 12.20 p.m. until 2.30 p.m. on Tuesday, 2 July 1996.

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