Seanad Éireann debate -
Friday, 26 Jul 1996

Vol. 148 No. 13

Order of Business.

Ms O'Sullivan

Before giving today's Order of Business, I know I speak for everyone in the House when I congratulate a very gutsy little Irish woman, Michelle Smith, who won three gold medals at the Olympic Games, an amazing achievement. Today we will enact legislation to curb the activities of those who destroy the health, hope and aspirations of young Irish people. Michelle Smith has inspired hope and determination in young people and I know I speak for the House in saying we are proud of her.

Today's business is items 1, 2 and 3. On item 1, I propose 20 minutes per spokesperson and ten minutes for other speakers. With the agreement of the House, speakers other than spokes-persons may share time. I propose a sos of 15 minutes after the Second Stage of item 1 and then the Remaining Stages will be taken. On item 2, I propose 15 minutes per spokesperson and ten minutes for other speakers. Item 3 will be taken without debate.

Mr. Wright

We agree with the Order of Business. If there is a need for a sos between the Second Stage of item 2 and the other Stages that would be agreeable. It is worth noting that, in the Message from the Dáil, three important items of legislation, which were debated and amended in this House were agreed by the Dáil.

I add my congratulations to Michelle Smith. I wish her well tonight. I wish all our Olympic competitors every success. In the light of our debate on crime today, our superb Olympic competitors who have given Irish people so much pleasure, should be seen as role models to the many young people who find themselves involved in crime. I hope we will have more heroes and heroines returning with medals from the Olympic Games.

Mr. O'Toole

I join in the congratulations to Michelle Smith and the other members of the Irish Olympic team. There is much discussion about the construction of a 50 metre swimming pool. As somebody who deals daily with the needs of children, I would prefer if the Government were to build ten 25 metre pools in places where there are none at present, than to invest huge amounts on super Olympic athletes. It is better to try to cater for the large numbers of people who want to participate in sport and it would be a better use of money. I urge the Government to consider support for sports clubs of all kinds. Teachers and parents around the country would feel that a 50 metre pool in Dublin, for example, would be of little use to those who live in the country. I will develop this point in today's debate.

Like Senator Wright, I welcome the fact that Bills, as amended by the Seanad, were accepted by the Dáil yesterday. They were well considered Bills and have been strengthened by the amendments made in this House. It is a very satisfactory that the other House accepted them without discussion. We accept the outline of the Order of Business and look forward to the debate.

Mr. Dardis

I have no difficulties with the proposed Order of Business. I join with the Acting Leader in congratulating Michelle Smith. It is a wonderful achievement. None of us thought we would see in our lifetime an Irish athlete winning three gold medals. We hope she will win a fourth this evening. One must stand in awe at the level of commitment and training that brings somebody to that level of success. I endorse the remarks made about people of this calibre and would mention the other Olympic athletes in the same context regarding the value they have as role models to society. The role of a supportive family in terms of achievement is also very important. This is very evident in the case of Michelle Smith. Her family deserve congratulations as well. I also congratulate Jim Sherwin and Gary O'Toole on the quality of their commentaries. They were illuminating. I hope Michelle wins a fourth medal, but even if she does not her success has been stupendous.

One of the characteristics of great champions is that they lose with grace. People in America might learn a lesson from this. We hope that a generosity of spirit will be evident in the rest of the Games and that the true spirit of the Games will emerge.

Mr. Neville

On behalf of the Fine Gael Party I wish to convey our congratulations to Michelle Smith on her excellent achievement. Those of us interested in television sport could never have imagined the enjoyment, excitement and tension which we experienced since the Olympic Games commenced. Michelle Smith is a fantastic role model for the youth of our country.

Approximately 3,000 children will meet at Mosney in a few weeks' time to participate in the National Finals of the Community Games. Their wish is to participate. Winning a medal is a bonus; the most important aspect is to provide people with the opportunity to participate.

What has been achieved to date has been beyond all our dreams. I wish the other athletes the very best over the next couple weeks. To those who do not win let me say that participation is more important.

Mr. Mooney

I join in the comments made thus far, especially with regard to those made by Senator Wright on the amended legislation which passed through the Dáil yesterday. I pay tribute to my colleagues, Senator Daly and Senator Cassidy, as well as to the Leader of the House and the Minister of State at the Department of Enterprise and Employment, Deputy Rabbitte, on the amendment which I hope creates a precedent for the future where members of local authorities will no longer be excluded from nomination to semi-State bodies. The amendment was fought for tenaciously in the House and was graciously accepted by the Minister of State. This is what democracy is about. It also reflects on the role of this House in improving legislation. The fact that it passed through the Dáil yesterday without debate indicates the merit of the proposal.

An Cathaoirleach

On the Order of Business.

Mr. Mooney

With regard to the remarks on Michelle Smith, I appreciate what Senator O'Toole said. He has his agenda as an educationalist and he is right. I ask the Acting Leader to convey to the Government the widespread feeling that we should have the best facilities, including a 50 metre pool. It does not matter if it is in Dublin.

An Cathaoirleach

We are definitely off today's Order of Business; there are other ways of raising the matter.

Mr. Mooney

I accept that but this is our final meeting of this session, a special sitting and I have not yet had the chance to raise the matter. The House should reflect the widespread feeling that we should have the best facilities to prepare our athletes.

An Cathaoirleach

It has no bearing on the Order of Business.

Mr. Mooney

It has in the context of asking the Leader to raise it with the appropriate Minister. If necessary I will put down an amendment to the Order of Business because I feel strongly about this, as should many other people. I have no monopoly in this matter. To take up Senator Neville's point, I am proud to have been associated with the Community Games since its inception and I too hope to be in Mosney.

An Cathaoirleach

Senator, speak on today's Order of Business. We are not discussing that matter.

Mr. Mooney

I accept that but it is an important matter. I am my party's spokesperson on Arts and Culture. Who would question the viability of spending on the arts? Why then should anyone question the viability of a 50 metre pool?

An Cathaoirleach

Senator, there are other ways of raising that matter, as you know.

Mr. Mooney

This Government should set aside a sum from the national lottery and take a percentage from each Department. The people would welcome that.

An Cathaoirleach

Senator, if you want to table a motion before the House, we will discuss that.

Mr. Mooney

I do not wish to be involved in an argument but it is important to reflect a view held both inside and outside this House.

An Cathaoirleach

Senator, I must ask you to resume your seat.

Ms Kelly

I intended to say something similar to Senator Mooney but I will put it in a form you may be able to accept, a Chathaoirligh. Would the Acting Leader ask the Minister of State responsible for sport to come to the House in the autumn for a debate on funding for sport facilities? On an allied topic, it was great to see Francis Barrett, a member of the travelling community, representing Ireland in the Olympics. It reminds me that one year ago, the task force on the travelling community——

An Cathaoirleach

Senator, I allowed one Member from each group to refer to our contestants in the Olympics and I do not want the matter covered again.

Mr. Mooney

Well done, Senator Kelly, one has to get it through to this Government.

Ms Kelly

The context is slightly different, a Chathaoirligh. The report of the task force on the travelling community was launched a year ago and has yet to be debated in this House. I ask the Acting Leader to arrange such a debate for the autumn as the report contains much which should be discussed here.

Mr. Finneran

I ask the Acting Leader to raise with the Minister for Agriculture, Food and Forestry the decision by the Government and the EU to take the money for compensation under the BSE scheme from other areas of the CAP. This is a big setback for farmers at a time when it has been established that there has been under-expenditure to the tune of £500 million at EU level that will be paid back to different Governments. It is unfortunate that other parts of the agriculture budget should have been raided to fund BSE compensation.

An Cathaoirleach

That does not arise on today's Order of Business.

Mr. Finneran

I appreciate that but I am asking the Acting Leader to bring this matter to the attention of the Minister for Agriculture, Food and Forestry and the Government. As Presidents of the various Councils of Ministers we are now in a position to act in this area. I understand this money has not yet been paid back, it is only being costed at present. Perhaps we can do something about this over the next six months.

Mr. Magner

I also congratulate our Olympic athletes, not only Michelle Smith but also Francis Barrett who carried the banner for his community. It was great to see the travelling and settled communities come together to celebrate his victory. We can search every Programme for Government, including that of Labour/Fianna Fáil, and every party's manifesto but none mentions a 50 metre swimming pool.

Mr. Mooney

There is no will to build it.

Mr. Dardis

Just because successive Governments have not done it, does not make it right.

Mr. Magner

Part of a politician's job is standing up for other people but we should begin standing up for ourselves. I resent and reject Gary O'Toole's criticism. He said politicians should stay away from the celebrations. Politicians have helped to provide facilities for clubs in all sporting bodies. I ask the Acting Leader to agree with my sentiments.

Mr. McGowan

Would the Acting Leader bring the following to the attention of the Department of the Taoiseach? There is confusion about the allocation of the peace and reconciliation fund. There are three organisations distributing the peace and reconciliation fund. There are 74 organisations involved as well as Cooperation North, IBEC and a token contribution to local authorities. It has been widely advertised that funding is available from the peace and reconciliation fund. People seeking money are confused as to where they should go. The southern Border counties have received a box of applications that can hardly be lifted off the ground. Where do they go with them? The reply given is that there is no money for bricks and mortar in the South.

An Cathaoirleach

Does the Senator have a question on today's Order of Business?

Mr. McGowan

Would the Acting Leader ask the Department of the Taoiseach to deal with this matter? There is a strategy committee, the peace and reconciliation forum and the county enterprise boards. There is organised confusion in the country, especially in the Border regions. Will the Taoiseach make a statement to clear up the confusion? He should get his act together because we do not want to mislead people who intend to set up small businesses.

Mr. Norris

Would it be possible to make provision for the presentation of a report by the delegation who recently visited Iran so that, for example, we could pay tribute to the outstanding job done by the Cathaoirleach? It is important the House should be informed of these matters, particularly since it was a historic visit and the first time a delegation, composed entirely of Members of this House, went abroad. The Irish public and taxpayers are entitled to know how wisely public representatives act on their behalf in difficult and arduous missions that are sometimes regarded as junkets.

An Cathaoirleach

The Senator is definitely straying from the Order of Business.

Mr. Norris

I also congratulate our athletes, particularly Michelle Smith, Francis Barrett who is representing his community in an extremely dignified way, and the other members of the different teams, including those who were unsuccessful. We sometimes forget, particularly when under attack by the American media, that the Olympic ideal is to compete and not simply to win. I congratulate all members of the team. I want to make one mildly sectarian point. There has been unseemly wrangling between the different parties about 50 metre swimming pools. The Independent Members raised this issue about six weeks ago and received a very dusty answer from Minister Allen. I sincerely hope that, in the light of Michelle Smith's success, we will reopen this debate and that we will have a 50 metre pool and 25 metre swimming pools throughout the country. The Seanad will then show it plays an important role.

Mr. Lanigan

A comment was made after the 1988 Olympics that we did extremely well because none of our swimmers drowned. Thank God that attitude has changed. I ask the Acting Leader for an early debate on the attitude of Government, the national lottery and various public bodies to sport. There is a grave need for a debate on the attitude of some to elite athletes and to those who want to compete. We can only have a comprehensive debate if the Minister with responsibility for sport and the Minister in charge of the national lottery come to the House. The report on the ten year review of national lottery disbursements is now available. We a need a comprehensive sports policy.

The question of a 50 metre pool should be discussed rationally.

An Cathaoirleach

We are not going to discuss it on the Order of Business.

Mr. Lanigan

As regards what Senator Magner said, we should send our congratulations to Gary O'Toole on his great work in ensuring that Bill O'Herlihy's daughter won a 400 metre race as he is her coach.

An Cathaoirleach

That is totally irrelevant.

Mr. Lanigan

Perhaps they could get together with Mr. Shane Kenny because he seems to be the person with whom to talk about sport.

An Cathaoirleach

A question on today's Order of Business.

Mr. Belton

Sour grapes.

Mr. Lanigan

Will the Minister for the Environment come to the House at an early date to discuss the operation of the National Roads Authority? We have reached the interim stage of the national development plan and the National Roads Authority will make decisions shortly into which we should have an input, although we have not had one since it took over responsibility for main roads.

On a day when we are to discuss crime, we should not forget the atrocious crimes which have been committed in Rwanda and Burundi over the past number of years. We should be cognisant of the fact that there has been coup in Burundi which could have desperate consequences for the African continent. I am not sure if anything can be done at this stage, but the international community should adopt a coordinated approach to ensure that what happened in Rwanda will not happen in Burundi in the next few weeks.

Professor Lee

Ba maith liom comhgairdeas a dhéanamh le Michelle Smith ní amháin as ucht an ghaisce atá déanta aici sa linn snámha ach as ucht a bheith réidh agus toilteannach labhairt as Gaeilge sa phreas agalamh ina dhiaidh. Is é an chéad uair ríamh a chuala mé Gaeilge á labhairt ar ócáid mar sin. Ba mhaith liom comhgairdeas a dhéanamh le Bord na Gaeilge as ucht an tacaíocht a thug an bord sin di nuair a bhí sí ag teastail go géar uaithi.

I support Senator Lanigan's request for an early debate on sport which could be good for it and for this House.

Mr. Bohan

I congratulate Michelle Smith on her wonderful achievement. As Senator Dardis said, the peak of fitness which she has achieved is amazing. No doubt it has something to do with the good food and drink she is getting in the "Poitín Stil". I strongly condemn the disgraceful attitude and the behaviour of the Americans. Because they could not or did not win, they did not have the graciousness to congratulate Michelle Smith. This House or the Government should make a protest to the US State Department.

Mr. Lydon

I support what Senator Lee said. I asked on an earlier occasion whether the House could debate the report of the review group on the Constitution but I did not receive an answer so I will ask again. I say this because I was worried watching this wonderful lady, Michelle Smith, sing every word of "Amhrán na bhFiann" on receiving a gold medal and responding to Seán Bán Breathnach in the first language. If all these young athletes who plan to emulate her swimming feats started speaking Irish, what would that do to the recommendation of this group of august people who want to see first language's role reduced? It is a very worrying trend. If they emulated her, we could have all our young people speaking Irish in no time. Can we have a debate on the matter in the House?

Senator Norris

As Gaeilge, más é do thoil.

Mr. Lydon

Tá neart Gaeilge agamsa.

Mr. Fahey

I want to add my congratulations to Michelle Smith, but, as one who spent five years knocking my head off the wall trying to get a 50 metre pool and national sports centre off the ground, I am sceptical of any such development being realised. It is the same irrespective of which side of the political divide a person is because the reality is — let us face it — that we, as politicians, have no interest in sport. It is not an issue with the electorate. As somebody said earlier, it was never in any party's manifesto. Even if it was, there are people in the Department of Finance who will never commit any serious expenditure on sport. If Michelle's wins did nothing other than wake us all up, she will have done well but we need a major change of attitude among senior officials in the Department of Finance. The last three Ministers for Finance, who include a former Taoiseach and the Leader of Fianna Fáil, the current Minister for Finance and the Taoiseach need to instigate a major change.

The national lottery was established for sport——

An Cathaoirleach

We are not discussing the matter now.

Mr. Fahey

——but only a small fraction of the money is going into sport. Hopefully, Michelle Smith's wins will be the catalyst for change.

Mr. Belton

I also congratulate Michelle Smith on her great achievement for this country. However, I am a little disappointed that in the last few days everybody has dived in on this issue of a pool. This issue has been debated for a long time.

An Cathaoirleach

I have already pointed out that the House is not discussing that issue on today's Order of Business.

Mr. Belton

Regarding national lottery funding, we should never forget, and we should compliment the Minister who introduced it.

Mr. Maloney

As somebody who called on a number of occasions for a debate on sport and received short shrift every time I mentioned it, it is good to see the cudgel being taken up at long last. I also congratulate Michelle Smith on her achievement.

It is a pity this House could not have had a debate on Northern Ireland at the end of Business today as the Dáil did yesterday. We have been afraid to take up the cudgels on behalf of Northern Ireland over the last two months of the Seanad. We saw what happened in Northern Ireland and it should have been debated here but we were afraid to do so. We saw the troubles which occurred there over 12 July and the 12 August is nearly upon us. I would appeal to everybody who has any——

An Cathaoirleach

We are not discussing the matter now.

Mr. Maloney

Any Senator who can arrange dialogue with anybody from the Nationalist or Unionist side in Northern Ireland should do so before 12 August because I fear what will happen.

Ms O'Sullivan

When congratulating Michelle Smith a number of Senators raised the issue of sport and the 50 metre pool. A few weeks ago there were calls for a debate on sport and, from my recollection, the Leader said he would organise a debate in the autumn. I assume nobody is calling for an earlier debate on any issue at this stage. Senator Fahey introduced a note of realism on the provision of a 50 metre pool but I think public opinion has shifted in recent times. I certainly hope we will be able to move in that regard. There seems to be an assumption that if its goes ahead it will be based in Dublin. However, other places have made submissions, including the National Training and Coaching Centre at the University of Limerick. It would not automatically go to Dublin.

Mr. Mooney

I want it in Drumshambo because there is plenty of water there.

Ms O'Sullivan

Senator Lee rightly congratulated Bord na Gaeilge for its support for Michelle Smith. We should also congratulate Seán Bán Breathnach for spreading the Irish language far and wide.

Senator Kelly mentioned the task force on the travelling community. A debate on its report should be arranged for the autumn. Senator Finneran mentioned BSE and the availability of funding. His suggestion is sensible and practical and I will bring it to the attention of the Minister for Agriculture, Food and Forestry.

Senator McGowan mentioned the allocation of the peace and reconciliation fund. I am not as familiar as he with the problems which arise, but I will contact the Department of the Taoiseach in that regard. Senator Norris mentioned the delegation who visited Iran, which I understand was successful. I will ask the Cathaoirleach to arrange a discussion on that.

Senator Lanigan asked for a debate on the National Roads Authority. I will try to arrange such a debate in the autumn. He also mentioned the situation in Rwanda and Burundi. We all share his serious concern about this issue. I heard Fr. Jack Finucane of Concern on the radio and he made sensible suggestions as to how the international community could take action. We should listen to people like him who know what is going on.

Senator Lydon mentioned the report of the review group on the Constitution. The Leader of the House gave a commitment to discuss that as soon as possible in the autumn. Senator Maloney asked for a debate on Northern Ireland. We all share his concern and whatever can be done by people in this House and outside to help channel communications between the various communities should be done. We will not be able to arrange a debate today in the House, but the Senator's concerns are justified.

Order of Business agreed to.