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Seanad Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 16 Oct 1996

Vol. 148 No. 16

Northern Ireland: Statements.

I am glad we have an opportunity for this debate, which was arranged at the request of Senators from all parties. I am not sure how helpful this debate will be. There are times when one asks if anything more can be said about Northern Ireland. Perhaps the one useful thing this House can do, being so far removed from where the real action is taking place, is indicate the depth of goodwill on all sides to those who are constructively, patiently and imaginatively seeking to find solutions and a way out of the current impasse. We can also express our impatience and anger towards those who persist in making any type of solution impossible. Sadly, the latter group ranges from the national saboteurs of the Provisional IRA to the constitutional bully boys exemplified by Robert McCartney and Ian Paisley, whose main talent appears to be selfish and almost mindless obstructionism.

Since the Dáil debated this topic last week two important and positive developments have taken place. The first is that the loyalist paramilitaries have agreed to continue their ceasefire. We cannot over-emphasise the importance of this development. We need have no doubt that every attempt was made to incite and provoke them back into violence. We can only wonder in horror at the mindset of people whose preferred option is to plunge Northern Ireland and the country into bloodshed, carnage and murder. That is exactly what the Provisional IRA set out to do with the Lisburn bomb. As long as they believe themselves to be above the law, humanity and decency, as long as they scorn the process of democracy and trample on the concept of consent, there is no place for them in civilised society and, least of all, no place for them at a negotiating table.

The Provisional IRA have their apologists, sneaking regarders and media fellow travellers; not many but still too many. Within days and often within hours of the latest atrocity the excuses are trotted out or the finger of blame is pointed elsewhere: "It is John Major's fault; his Government has not done enough", "It is John Bruton's fault; he has not done enough", "It is Dick Spring's fault", "It is the Irish Government's fault", "It is the Unionists who are to blame". The finger is always pointed away from those who have perpetrated the outrage. The pattern is predictable. Look at the atrocities of recent times — the murder of Garda Jerry McCabe, the Clonaslee bomb factory, Canary Wharf, the London bomb factory, the murder and bombing in Lisburn, etc. They were followed by a few days of silence after which the apologists were back blaming everybody except the murderers and bombers themselves; it is everybody's fault except the Provisional IRA, these misunderstood people.

The Irish people have been extraordinarily patient with Sinn Féin. It is clear they do not believe Sinn Féin. How could they when they are bombarded with a daily diet of Adams-speak which stretches the imagination and so obviously flies in the face of the truth we can see around us? The Irish people do not believe that Sinn Féin and the IRA are separate entities. We are asked in speech after speech by Mr. Adams and others to accept that they are separate entities. How can we accept this? The evidence is before our eyes. In addition, the Irish people are deeply sceptical of the democratic credentials of Sinn Féin. How can they be otherwise? What are the Irish people to make of the continuation of the so-called punishment beatings, these daily examples of kangaroo courts and barbaric brutality?

The irony is that the Irish people want to believe Sinn Féin. They want to believe that Sinn Féin can be trusted; they want to see Sinn Féin as part of a settlement. That is the kind of people we are. The conditions which the Irish people, North and South, have laid down for Sinn Féin are simple — end your ambiguity on violence and murder and accept fully the democratic process. That is the only condition the Irish people are asking of Sinn Féin and once again, if it is not too late, Sinn Féin should realise that, however slow they have been in the past few months, there would be a welcome for them and an expectation and hope that they would have a full part to play. Is the IRA preventing Sinn Féin from playing its full part? Perhaps, but I am sure that is only one part of the story.

I have already mentioned the deep ambiguity in Sinn Féin which must end if it wants to regain the credibility and welcome it was accorded by all parties in this House after the ceasefire. Its leaders cannot continue to face both ways. Already many of Sinn Féin's best friends, especially in the US, are losing patience and belief. Sinn Féin should never forget it was its American friends which gave it the respectability which helped it in from the cold on its early steps back into constitutional politics.

Sometimes when we deal with a problem like Northern Ireland we get caught up in details and forget the fundamentals. There is a fundamental question to be answered: what does the IRA want after 27 years of the Troubles? Is it to impose its will by force of arms on its fellow citizens, irrespective of the fact that over 95 per cent of the Irish people reject them and their methods? Is it to stir up civil war in Northern Ireland between Protestant and Catholic? Emphatically that is what they are attempting to do at present. Is it to drive the two parts of this island further apart? Believe me the level of disaffection with Northern Ireland from so many people in the Republic, the sense of impatience, the sense of it being someone else's problem, is growing fast largely because of the tactics of the Provisional IRA. Does the Provisional IRA believe it can drive Britain out of Northern Ireland against the wishes of the majority of people living there? If this is the case then clearly it is not going to succeed. What does it want? I would like to know clearly, free of all the tortuous, convoluted, self-serving language of IRA statements, what they want. I would like to know why they are so scared or contemptuous of democracy and dialogue. Their view is they know best and they have the right to impose their will. No Irish Government from any side of this House has ever given in to such threats and never will.

At present there is a contrast between the IRA and the Protestant paramilitaries. I have no desire to glorify or adorn these same paramilitaries with any false sense of glamour — terrible crimes can be laid at their door. Nonetheless, over the past difficult years, their leaders have shown courage, restraint and generosity. They are under enormous pressure from the psychopaths in the Provisional IRA and, no doubt, from within their own community to restart their violence. We can only hope that their nerve will hold. It is important to pay tribute to Mr. McMichael and Mr. Ervine who have shown enormous imagination and courage. Would that they had their counterparts in the paramilitaries of the IRA and indeed, in the ranks on mainline unionism.

The second important development since last week was the agreement between the Ulster Unionist Party and the SDLP. We have waited a long time, too long, for this small breakthrough, yet we must welcome it. The central fact in Northern Ireland is that if the mainstream parties cannot make the political process work, if politics are not capable — and seen to be capable — of delivering progress and of allowing elected representatives to talk honestly to each other, then any hope of normal politics there simply goes out the window.

We should give at least two cheers for what has happened. Let us hope the agreement this week is the beginning of something solid and real, knowing as we do that the history of Northern Ireland has been littered with false starts. The long litany of false starts makes it very difficult to be other than sceptical about real progress. We should not cheer too much until this small step develops into something more solid.

I will conclude by reminding the House that we were to have had a small ceremony here tomorrow where a copy of a book by Alf McCreery on the life of our dead colleague, Senator Gordon Wilson, was to have been presented to the Cathaoirleach on behalf of the Seanad. That has had to be postponed for a few weeks but, nonetheless, it is important to remind ourselves of the privilege we had in this House of having Gordon Wilson as a colleague and friend. Most of all, we should try to remember and rekindle the spirit of generosity, imagination, forbearance and tolerance which underlay all his tireless efforts to bring peace and reconciliation to Northern Ireland. I call on those politicians in Northern Ireland who are trying very hard, to keep in mind the spirit of Gordon Wilson. I also call on Members to ensure his spirit and generosity are not forgotten.

I endorse what the Leader of the House said in respect of our late colleague, Gordon Wilson. I have no doubt that the tone of our contributions and the thrust of our efforts will be towards bringing about that understanding and tolerance without which no progress can be made in this difficult and tortuous problem.

I am glad we are addressing this issue at a moment of hope and expectation. There have been numerous requests for a debate in the House on this issue over the last number of months. I agree with the Leader that too much can be said and that one must always be conscious of the risk of a statement giving rise to a reaction. There is now a possibility of an accommodation having regard to the agreement between the SDLP, the Unionist party and the other parties to the talks in Northern Ireland. This is a moment of hope and expectation.

In that context, I wish to pay tribute to my good friend for many years, John Hume, who has struggled relentlessly and under considerable pressure to bring about an understanding in Northern Ireland and to work towards the common advantage and interest of all the people on this island. His search for peace has been constant and courageous. I was with him the day before the ceasefire ended in February. His apprehension and agony at the prospect that it might end because of the lack of urgency on the part of both Governments at the time left me with a deep abiding feeling of the need for political leaders and Governments to move with urgency at all times to restore a lasting peace. For that reason, I hope we can contribute to what might be done.

I wish to pay tribute to the loyalist paramilitary organisations which, despite the considerable pressure they must be under, have adopted a leadership role and have proclaimed and proved that they intend to maintain a ceasefire with a view to bringing about political discussion, agreement and, in the final analysis, political stability. It is time we promoted those who have made so much effort to bring about the breathing space we now have. Efforts have been made by churchmen, such as the Rev. Roy Magee and Fr. Alec Reid from my home town and with whom I was in contact many times over the years, to bring about an understanding and a commitment to peace from those who previously were involved exclusively in violence.

As a republican, about which I feel very deeply and in the true spirit of what it means, I demand that the IRA restore its ceasefire for two reasons. The violence and killing perpetrated on our fellow Irishmen of whatever tradition — their traditions are legitimate and valid — cannot be a basis for understanding but is a basis for dissension, trauma and further killing and violence. In the name of all elected representatives I demand that the ceasefire which the IRA put in place over two years ago with a sense of courage be restored because it is unacceptable to the people or to any democratically representative here or elsewhere that any political progress could be achieved through violence and death.

I demand the restoration of the ceasefire for another reason. Sinn Féin must be party to the all inclusive talks if we are to bring about for the ultimate solution to this problem. Unfortunately there can be no place for Sinn Féin until that clear, unequivocal and unqualified declaration of a ceasefire comes from the IRA. Sinn Féin has played a positive and significant role and I hope that in a climate where an IRA ceasefire would be restored without any equivocation, it would be enabled to take its place at the table so as to bring about the ultimate resolution to this difficult problem.

I condemn and reject violence and killing as a means to political accommodation because it is self-evident that it is the opposite in that it is a means to further dissension, violence and suffering. Having said that, condemnation is not enough. The role of this and the British Government is to promote and to pursue every avenue and opportunity towards establishing peace on a secure and permanent basis. To achieve that, one must win the trust and confidence of all parties in the interest of a secure and lasting peace.

Above all else, political representatives and Governments must avoid provocation of a type which, far from bringing about a move towards understanding, reconciliation and a common cause, causes the opposite reaction. I say with regret that the Taosieach did not serve that cause well — I know his purpose is one of good faith and that his intentions are honourable — when quite needlessly he equated Sinn Féin-IRA to the Nazis in Germany. They can be accused of much on the basis of their inhuman activities — killings perpetrated in their names which we all reject — but no one could ever equate that with the horrific cruelty perpetrated by the Nazis on a race during the last war which was unprecedented in the human experience. Despite recent terrible experiences in Bosnia and Rwanda, I hope it will never again feature as a blemish on humanity. I do not understand why the leader of our nation chose to extend the horror which we share towards violence as if it were on a par with the human ovens of Auschwitz and elsewhere.

It is basic xenophobia.

I am sure that, on reflection, the Taoiseach will see that whatever else can be said, there is no parallel between the events in Nazi Germany and those in Northern Ireland over the past 20 years.

Urgency must be evident in everything our Government and the British Government do. In that context, I welcome the signs of progress as regards the agreement for an agenda for the talks because a political vacuum only increases the risks of violence. The door must always be kept open for Sinn Féin to come into these talks, assuming a durable IRA ceasefire is established. The British Government and the Ulster Unionist Party must not repeat the mistakes they made after the last ceasefire. The parties in the talks should try to create real momentum — the Governments must ensure this is done — and not create obstacles to inclusive participation.

Unionist parties, particularly the Official Unionist Party, must realise that trying to disqualify a party which represents over one-third the Nationalist community from talks, even if the ceasefire is reinstated, is not the path to peace, stability and reconciliation. The prize for which we must strive is not a political settlement without peace or a precarious peace without a political settlement, but a peace which is based on a durable political settlement. That is the only prize which will secure what we hope to achieve through political action.

There are many positive developments now. Many friends around the world, in the United States, the EU and Canada which was represented in the House today by the distinguished Speaker of the Canadian Parliament and the former Senator Mitchell, are anxious to help us to bring about that durable peace based on a political settlement. The Government must respond to that opportunity. Both Governments failed to do so on the last occasion. They sat back for too long and the frustration expressed to me by John Hume, a man of peace, is clear evidence of that. Some now say that they seem to be responding to violence, like the unacceptable violence in Lisburn. This is the type of thing in which a Government should not allow itself to be caught up. It must take the initiative and maintain the momentum at all times.

I regret that the Taoiseach refused to met John Hume and Gerry Adams at a time when they were fellow guarantors of the peace process. That is not evidence of the type of urgency we now require. The British Government sat back and backed down at Drumcree in the face of threatening violence, although I will not go back over recent history. That is no way for a Government to behave. Our challenge is to build what our leader called a stairway of consensus so that all sides can climb, albeit slowly, to a level of agreement which will protect the traditions and allegiances of all by respecting them and by pointing out that their role in the Ireland we want, North and South, must be real, positive and vigorous. That role cannot be based on deceit.

There is no point saying, for instance, as the Taoiseach said some time ago, that we have no interest of our own other than obtaining an agreement which is reasonable and fair to the aspirations of both communities in Northern Ireland. He may have been trying to reassure by saying that but it is clearly and patently untrue. Of course we have an interest in our own. We, in our jurisdiction, have an entirely legitimate interest of our own not just in peace and stability in Northern Ireland but in closer co-operation between the two parts of the island for our mutual benefit and no member of the Unionist community will be reassured by our leader, the Taoiseach, saying that we have no interest of our own. That may have been well intended but it certainly deceives and it will not create the basis for trust without which we cannot make progress.

The future to which we look can only be based on respect and co-operation, a respect which poses no threat from any part of the community in Ireland, North or South, and which is reflected in the harmonious relationships in this part of Ireland to the extent that we do not even know to which denomination a person belongs in terms of his or her political affiliations. That may not be anything to boast about but it is the reality. I would like to think that our fellow Protestant Irishmen who have played a huge part in the development of the institutions of this State would continue to communicate to their fellow Protestant Irishmen in the North that the Ireland in which they live and hope to share is not one based on any threat or domination which, unfortunately, has been all too much a feature of Northern Ireland for far too long.

The potential for all of us in the condition which we want to bring about will be one where there is triumph of hope over fear, confidence over distrust, tolerance over prejudice, peace over violence and exuberant life over cruel death. This can be achieved provided we look to the potential we have together on this island and in Europe. Our fellow Unionist Irishmen, whom I respect greatly, will see that they are now deprived of a meaningful international role which we richly enjoy. We want to share all that with them. Hopefully, we can begin to see that sense of urgency and confidence in that spirit which will bring together the political representatives of this nation.

I welcome the opportunity to contribute to this debate assessing the current situation in Northern Ireland and how the various parties, including the two Governments, might be able to move the process forward.

I welcome the fact that the Leader and Senator O'Kennedy invoked the spirit of our late colleague, Senator Gordon Wilson. Indeed, Senator O'Kennedy also referred to Rev. Magee and Fr. Reid. We need to bear in mind the heartfelt spirit of generosity, reconciliation and understanding of the experience of others who may come from different communities which those three people represent. That spirit is needed in Northern Ireland at present.

Much of what has happened in the past few months has given little ground for optimism. Drumcree represented the worst traits of unionism — backward looking bully-boy supremacy which alienated their neighbours. Serious questions also arose around that time about police partiality which was followed by boycotting, which brought further alienation to the communities in Northern Ireland.

The Lisburn bombs and the resulting death of Warrant Officer James Bradwell have highlighted starkly the necessary isolation of Sinn Féin from the democratic talks process for as long as they give support to the IRA's killing and maiming campaign, and there is no evidence that Sinn Féin will stop giving that support. They cannot hold two hands of cards — the armalite and the ballot box — and expect a place at the table where everyone else has only one. Neither can they ignore the significance of potent message of 92 per cent of Nationalist readers of The Irish News surveyed recently who said clearly that they want the ceasefire renewed.

Sinn Féin frequently refers to its mandate but is it being properly represented when the evidence indicates that the vast majority of those who gave them that mandate do not want violence to be used as a political weapon at this stage in the history of Northern Ireland? History does not stand still and what people want from their political leaders can change. The people of Northern Ireland, including the vast majority of those who voted for Sinn Féin in the last election, want them to work on an agreed future through dialogue and not violence.

Sinn Féin must also face the fact that the Lisburn bombs have had the direct effect of making it more difficult for the British Government to proceed in way which includes Sinn Féin. They cannot be seen to make concessions to violence. Sinn Féin can make a positive contribution if it acts both publicly and privately as a persuader to the IRA to call a ceasefire. I listened to "Saturday View" on RTE Radio 1 last Saturday when Martin McGuinness was asked if he felt his party should do this and he ignored the question. Instead, as is their wont, he told us what he thought the British Government should do. This is not acceptable and it is not what the vast majority of those who voted for Martin McGuinness and his colleagues want.

I read in the newspapers that Gerry Adams said last week in north Belfast that Sinn Féin is prepared to go the extra mile for peace. I have heard him say this before and we could have believed him at certain stages, particularly two years ago, but if this is not mere empty rhetoric, we need to see it go that extra mile quickly. We have genuine grounds to wonder whether Sinn Féin means what it says when it uses such rhetoric. We should keep the door open and be ready to respond if it genuinely brings about another ceasefire. If we are to believe it will go that extra mile, we must see Sinn Féin uses its powers of persuasion with the IRA as we have seen the representatives of loyalism speak out clearly to their paramilitaries.

The British Government reacted to the Lisburn bombing and the death of Warrant Officer Bradwell with understandable condemnation, anger and frustration but it, too, has a responsibility to do what it can to resolve conflict without giving comfort to terrorism. In the immediate future, clearing logjams as they arise in the talks process will be the central preoccupation but the British Government can now begin to put a process in place well in advance of next year's marching season so that decisions with regard to routes, policing and community consultation are based on clear and impartial guidelines and are implemented vigorously. It could have done this in advance of this summer's marches and this might have headed off much of what happened, particularly the stand-off at Drumcree which left Catholic communities feeling oppressive Unionist tactics had won out. Before the marching season the British Government should have worked out a strategy; I sincerely hope it will do so before the next marching season. They must be prepared and put procedures in place which are seen to be fair and impervious to pressures.

We found out in the last day or two that the Apprentice Boys of Derry intend marching next Saturday. I appeal strongly for appropriate consultation with residents of Derry from both traditions so that confrontation can be avoided. That can be achieved only if people are consulted.

The British Government can take other action which would not be perceived as concessions to violence. It can and should move to draw up and implement a bill of rights. This is something which the Labour Party and other parties have been saying for some time. Indeed, there is broad support in the Northern community and beyond for the concept of a bill of rights. I urge our Government to impress on the British Government the importance of taking politically impartial steps, such as the drawing up of a Bill of rights. They can also address the prisoners issue and economic and social measures, especially in those parts of the North where these problems are most acute. It is not a coincidence that those who are recruited to violence and terrorism are most likely to come from areas of social and economic deprivation.

The anti-violence stand taken by loyalist leaders of the PUP and the UDP has been praised and encouraged in this country and beyond. They need to continue to articulate this clearly thought out position which they hold with great conviction. They need to persuade those within their own communities and support structure, who may not be as convinced as the leadership, to adhere to democratic dialogue.

As two previous speakers have said, the SDLP have demonstrated flexibility and maturity when most needed, from helping Sinn Féin come in from the cold and playing an important part in the process to the agreement they made yesterday with the UUP on an agenda for talks. While Mr. Trimble and his colleagues may be motivated as much by the opportunity to isolate Sinn Féin as a need to progress the talks, they must nevertheless be given credit for moving forward. The agreement on an agenda between the SDLP and the UUP is to be welcomed for two reasons in particular.

First, it puts decommissioning on a separate track and deals with it along with talks. Anyone with a grasp on reality would not expect the loyalists currently taking part in the talks to agree to decommissioning while Sinn Féin are outside the process. Arms will have to be decommissioned in a balanced manner with both sides of the community being part of the process. Decommissioning has been put into a separate compartment and has not been allowed to block progress in the talks. I welcome the fact that the SDLP and the UUP together have led that process. It would have signalled the death knell of the talks if such a decision had not been made on decommissioning, as there is no immediate prospect of Sinn Féin entering into talks. Progress on decommissioning is fraught with difficulty. The two Governments have indicated their intention to draft plans for a mechanism by which this can be done. Decommissioning is not likely to happen in the immediate future. It will take careful discussions, dialogue and understanding before we get to that point.

The other reason the agreement between the SDLP and the UUP is so welcome is these two parties, representing the majority of Nationalists and Unionists, show a willingness to compromise that is essential to progress. That the DUP's Reverend Ian Paisley and the cry of the UK Unionist Bob McCartney "traitor" is all the more reason to hope that David Trimble and his party are being pro-active. They have led, despite the others sniping at them from the sidelines. I have spoken before of the arid prospect of a pan Nationalist front and a pan Unionist front in confrontation. This is a dangerous prospect which will not get us anywhere. We need to understand the other community's point of view. If we see ourselves in terms of a pan Nationalist front versus a pan Unionist front, we will achieve nothing.

We need real engagement between Unionists and Nationalists. We have some evidence that the SDLP and the UUP have taken steps along this path. All of the advice and wisdom on conflict resolution underlines the absolute necessity of real engagement between representatives of the different traditions to develop some level of trust and willingness to compromise. I participated in the Forum for Peace and Reconciliation and heard directly of the South African experience. I heard the words of wisdom of Dr. Eida, Kevin Boyle, Tom Hadden and others who gave us an expert view on conflict resolution. It is clear that progress will be made only if those who lead their communities do not dig their heels in and refuse to yield ground for fear of appearing to let their side down. The leadership on all sides are conscious they have to bring their people with them. They also need the courage to understand and accept the needs of the other community.

The way forward is a hazardous passage which has to be negotiated with great care. Anyone who uses violent or obstructionist tactics to block progress will betray the future of their people. The current and previous Governments have ensured the essential principles of consent and parity of esteem underlying the process. They are a vital part of the balance of interests and must continue to play this positive role. Our Government has played a positive role right through the process and must continue to do so.

I wish to share my time with Senator Lee.

An Leas-Cathaoirleach

Is that agreed? Agreed.

I agree with much of what Senator O'Sullivan has said. She has touched on important aspects of conflict resolution and examined the matter from the principled position of how to move forward on an understood basis.

The idea of discrimination and a veto, which has ruined the process in Northern Ireland for so long, must be addressed. On this side of the Border we have spoken about the veto on talks which the Unionist community appeared to have and the IRA is currently exercising another veto by effectively ensuring these talks do not get under way. It seems like heresy to say it may be necessary for the mass of people to say we should get on with it and take decisions. If a tiny number of people are not part of it, they will eventually be isolated. I would prefer to take my chances with that approach rather than bending over backwards to find a solution.

I receive word of developments in the North on a daily basis. During the ceasefire last year I said, in a small voice, that whereas everyone in the North was delighted the ceasefire had happened, the harsh reality was that when there was no violence to distract people, the fundamentals of discrimination existing in that society would become more obvious in workplaces and neighbourhoods where they were never seen before. It is not surprising that it manifested itself this summer and to a lesser extent last summer.

Discussions have commenced to ensure that marches next summer will take place on an agreed basis. The social partners, including the communities, ICTU, farmers' groups and Government are in talks on this matter which I hope leads to something positive.

I would like to look below the surface of the conflict and highlight some real issues which we have ignored for far too long. The fundamental problem in the North is that we are trying to resolve the issue at the wrong end in looking at the effect rather than the cause. The only way to deal with the position in Northern Ireland is to consider the background which informs the attitudes and feelings of ordinary people. We must consider the reality which exists for members of a divided community. I refer to it as a "divided community" for reasons of brevity but I realise there are many facets to the Northern Irish community and society. However, I am discussing the freely understood sides in the conflict.

The House will accept these generalisations for the sake of brevity because people on both sides of the divide in Northern Ireland are born in different hospitals, live in different housing estates, attend different schools, play different games, practise different religions and are probably buried in different graveyards. That is the essence of difference in the daily lives and deaths of Northern Irish people. This difference is endemic because it is enshrined. It is enabled and supported at every level and, in many cases, has a statutory base, which can be seen in the areas of housing, education, religion and, in particular, equality legislation. There are aspects of positive discrimination in equality legislation in Northern Ireland that favour one side or the other which would be considered outright discrimination in other countries. When the situation is considered in this way, is it extraordinary that there are difficulties in encouraging people from different backgrounds to agree an agenda and a process? This cannot be the case and it would be extraordinary if such difficulties did not exist.

I recognise that I am speaking in broad terms and using shorthand to make a general point. However, we must ask how people in the South can help. There seems to be an absolute partitionist attitude to Northern issues on the part of many of the most influential players in the establishment of the Republic. For once, I pardon politicians in the main because 95 per cent of them do not belong to that category. During the past ten to 15 years, politicians were the only people who have shown flexibility and a willingness to change. There have been extraordinary changes in the policies of the main political parties in the South in that period. They may have made mistakes but they have shown an openness towards change and movement.

During the period of the ceasefire, however, there did not appear to be any signs of movement in the great areas of influence in the establishment in the Republic. I refer to the area of education, in which I am involved, where the idea of exposing Northern Protestant Unionist teachers to our poor Catholic southern children was beyond the scope of many people's grasp. The idea of allowing a Unionist from Ballymena who could not speak the Irish language to be part of the education system in the South was more than most people could grasp. Therefore, there was no change on the part of those most closely associated with the idea of a united Ireland. These people showed the least flexibility. I tried to ensure flexibility and encouraged consideration of an all-Ireland education system but this created a threat to those with entrenched views. There is a cultural partition in the South and the Border has enabled the growth of many groups and prejudices here which were exposed during the ceasefire. Progress was not made as a result.

There are too many people on this island, North and South, who act as if compromise always means that the other side must move towards their position. I fully agree with Senator O'Sullivan's point that conflict resolution means that both sides must move towards each other. This did not occur during the ceasefire. Everyone must be asked about the compromises they are prepared to make for the sake of peace. That question was not answered during the period of the ceasefire. Everyone knew what they wanted but no one stated what they were prepared to give, how much they would compromise or how much ground they would sacrifice in the interests of peace. During the ceasefire, people were stronger in their certainties that they were right and that the other side should move towards them.

Those who take the moral high ground as a matter of principle because they know they are right, and therefore refuse to compromise, are of no use to the peace process. The word "principle" is the most abused and deteriorated word to enter discussions on Northern Ireland. Earlier I used the word "principle" in its correct sense as meaning "rules"— the rules for conflict resolution, etc. In discussing the relationships between North and South and the involvement of different groups, the distinction between principle and prejudice becomes more difficult to identify. It is also becomes more difficult to see the point at which one blurs into the other. Eventually, the highly principled person, having stated and restated their position ad nauseam, begins to sound prejudiced.

Principled prejudice seems to cloud sound judgment time and again. In this process, the pragmatic are more likely to find a solution than the principled. Only the pragmatic can negotiate and engage with people who hold a different point of view with the objective of finding a resolution. Those who begin from a principled position seem to be saying that they know why they are here, that they are right to be here and they are not going to move. Once that position is made clear, it is a matter of principle not to move away from it. I am fed up with people holding the high moral ground and lecturing everyone because they believe they are right. If we assume everyone is right, where do we go from there? States and armies can justify the taking of life but other people cannot. It is easy to hold different points of view. The fact that people believe and know they are right does not mean they are right.

It should be remembered that just because people have a right to do something does not mean that they are right to do it. That is where our problems begin and end. A root and branch approach must be adopted to change society on this island, North and South. We must enshrine integration rather than division in our society at every level — housing, education, religion, etc.

I would prefer to listen to Senator O'Toole who made many interesting points with most of which I agree. I will try to be brief because I am pessimistic about the situation in Northern Ireland at present.

At the outset, the Leader asked what the IRA wants. I do not know what it wants but, whether its members know what they want in terms of the bottom line, it cannot believe that the idea of bombing Ulster Unionists into a united Ireland is remotely on the agenda for the next millennium. If the IRA still relies on the argument that Irish Nationalists have a right, in principle, to rule over Ulster Unionists, I, as an Irish Nationalist, reject that right just as I reject the right of any community in Ireland to rule over any other community against its will. It seems there is no difference between those positions. That does not get us very far but there would be progress if either side were prepared to accept that principle.

What can be done to alleviate the problems in the short-term? During the debate on the Framework Document, the Taoiseach informed the Dáil that it was the beginning of work towards a wholly new form of expression of traditional aspirations, focusing on individuals and communities rather than on territory. He went on to state that it was hoped that, by expressing "aspiration" in this new way, the two otherwise irreconcilable aspirations could be reconciled. What are people in the South doing to try to implement that aspiration? This seems to be kernel of the issue, I am aware that it can sound clichéd and trite but if one were able to "operationalise" that it would be a major contribution to solving this problem and similar problems around the world which shows us how difficult it would be to do something about it. If we could, that is the direction we should take. I wonder what we are doing.

If it is the case, as Senator O'Kennedy said, that the Taoiseach said we have no interests of our own in Northern Ireland, that we have no interest beyond "whatever they agree to, we agree to" and if it is the case that the British Government takes the view that it has no interests in Northern Ireland beyond "whatever they agree to, we agree to", then we are in a more difficult situation than if we were prepared to be objec-Irelan tively and explicitly more intrusive. The two Governments have an interest beyond "what they agree to, we agree to".

If that is the position of the Governments, what incentive is there for any of the extremes, although on one side the extreme is mainline, to come to an agreement? Why should the Unionists enter negotiations which they can only expect mean concessions of some sort? What is the incentive for them to negotiate if that is what is at the end? In that context the only quid pro quo would be peace, but if they are promised peace in advance as a condition of going into negotiations, what is the incentive for meaningful negotiation? This is a catch 22 and I have great sympathy for anybody trying to resolve it. Perhaps the Government has made statements of which, in the welter of statements, it can be easy to overlook the details. If there is a way of “operationalising” the statement by the Taoiseach on the framework document that is the course to take.

I was at the last meeting of the British-Irish interparliamentary body and it was a sad occasion because Sir Patrick Mayhew — who, as Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, has the most thankless task in Europe this side of Bosnia — appeared to have crumbled under the moral defeat of Drumcree. That is what is was for anyone who wants to uphold law and order. He kept referring to the statement by Sir Hugh Annesley, indeed almost repeating it. I respect the difficulties Sir Hugh Annesley confronted but his statement was to the effect that if there is one golden public order rule it is that a number of people, if there are enough of them, can in the short term overrun a normal policing operation. Sir Patrick Mayhew kept repeating that. It sounded to me like an invitation to any thug in Northern Ireland, on any side, to mobilise enough bodies and the police will give way because it is not prepared to confront them.

Sir Hugh Annesley made the analogy with the burning of the British Embassy and with French riots but they were false analogies. If that is the condition into which the best minds in Northern Ireland have lowered themselves in terms of analogies, we are at a very low ebb in trying to get to grips with the real problem. I wish the Tánaiste well in his attempts to get to grips with the problem but judging by these documents we are at as low an ebb as we have ever been in terms of comprehending the radical situation.

I welcome this opportunity to make a statement to the Seanad on the current situation in Northern Ireland. As Members of the Oireachtas it is our privilege and our duty to speak for the people of Ireland. It is important for us to do so, especially at this time of great worry and perplexity in relation to Northern Ireland. The bright hopes we cherished so recently that we were leaving behind the spectre of political violence are greatly diminished and may be quenched entirely. We must speak out on behalf of all our people to condemn the wanton acts of violence which are the primary cause of the sense of betrayal and despair which is now so widespread. It is also important to use our democratic fora to convey a sense of where the Government stands and what our policy will be in the difficult choices with which we may be faced.

In regard to the Lisburn bombs and the other atrocities, or attempted atrocities, from Canary Wharf onwards, it is right and necessary to express the sense of national disgust and betrayal uppermost in our minds. We must ensure our moral senses are never blunted by the dreadful familiarity of atrocity. We must be careful to call right and wrong by their proper names. We extend the deepest sympathy to the family of Warrant Officer Bradwell and to those injured in the attack. To them and to all other victims of violence, we want to say that we abhor the terrible suffering visited on them. We repudiate all attempts to justify it. We repudiate particularly any grotesque claim that it is done in the name of Ireland. The Ireland which is supposed to need such bloody offerings exists only in the warp of some closed minds. It has nothing to do with the Ireland we are trying to build and offers it only misery and unending harm.

I could spend much time here dissecting the contradictions and absurdity of the present IRA campaign of violence but so many others, including the Taoiseach the Opposition Leaders, have done this so cogently in recent days that there is little new to add. Just as surely as violence destroys lives and livelihoods, it poisons the ground on which a political settlement must be built. It is important that democratic representatives continue to be loud and clear in their condemnation. In this respect these Seanad statements are particularly valuable.

At the same time condemnation must not be made a substitute for policy. It is particularly important at a time when anger and despair can be uppermost in the public mind that the Governments should steer a steady course. That is right in itself. It is also the most telling resistance which can be offered to those who seek to dictate the political agenda through murder, bombs and bullets.

There are diverse views in this country on the origins and nature of the conflict in Northern Ireland and how precisely it should be resolved. However, on certain matters the overwhelming majority of the Irish people and their democratic representatives in both Houses stand together in unanimity. The keystone of that consensus is peace. We wish to live together in peace, to foster social and economic growth in peace, to talk through and settle our differences in peace and to enjoy and respect our different traditions in peace. No Government policy is conceivable in Ireland which did not seek to serve as fully and consistently as possible that fundamental commitment.

In doing so we must of course first maintain our strong defences against all those who would attempt to draw us down the violent path. The first duty of a democratic state is to protect its citizens. For any group to take it upon themselves to use violence in our name is an attack not just on the innocent victims of each atrocity but on the lifetimes of work of millions of Irish men and women who have together built our society. The Garda Síochána and the Army are the instruments of the law and the preservers of the peace.

Our security forces, like those in Northern Ireland and in Britain, with whom they co-operate so closely, have relentlessly pursued the men of violence and their arms for over 25 years. They have had substantial successes in containing and countering the threat of terrorism, not least this year. The Clonaslee bomb factory was only the most spectacular and important of several excellent pieces of work. As the Minister for Justice reminded the Dáil last week, since August 1994 the Garda has recovered 600 illegally held firearms, 30,000 rounds of ammunition and 60 kilogrammes of semtex. The Garda Síochána — one of whom, Garda McCabe, made the ultimate sacrifice earlier this year — will continue to hunt down and punish the perpetrators of violence.

The work of peace, however, goes beyond the necessary defence of democratic institutions and values against overt or covert attack. Security measures alone will not eradicate the cancer of violence used for political ends. There is also a need to ensure, as far as humanly possible, that our political systems clearly offer the means to discuss and to manage the political problems or tensions which provide the soil where a culture of violence can take root. That is why we have sought to achieve a lasting and comprehensive political settlement and accommodation.

One could spend a lifetime arguing the rights and wrongs of history. What is indisputable is they have left Northern Ireland as a political entity suffering from a fundamental lack of political consensus. That is a source of political and social instability which has blighted so many aspects of life in Northern Ireland. It has also been very costly for this jurisdiction, which can never be insulated from its effect. When Unionist leaders complain of interference they should first ask themselves honestly whether any Irish Government, whatever its ideological hue, could ever be truly indifferent to bad political stewardship and confrontation in Northern Ireland when the repercussions for us are so direct and costly. Rather than construing our concerns as a threat, they should understand that our natural and unmistakable interest in peace and stability is a strong and obvious foundation for a new partnership.

The parameters of a viable and fair accommodation of the Northern Ireland conflict have been elaborated in a long and difficult process of trial and error between the Irish and British democracies. They have been refined in a series of agreements and documents which enjoy, broadly speaking, bipartisan support in both Parliaments and are, therefore, reliable pointers to future policy. These parameters include, conspicuously, the total rejection of violence and of any attempt to mix politics and violence. They aim for the broadest possible application of the principle of consent. No one now seriously entertains the notion that you can bomb nearly 1 million Unionists into a united Ireland. It is obvious that one of the main casualties of IRA bombs has been the traditional ideology of a united Ireland itself. The principle of consent in Ireland is a coin with two sides. Unionist failure to acknowledge its relevance to Nationalists in Northern Ireland is one of the strongest barriers in the way of a new political dispensation where the Unionist position would be protected by the agreement of all.

It is broad common ground also that a political solution must address all the key relationships, and ensure parity of esteem and just and equal treatment for the identities and aspirations of both traditions and both communities. Unionists cannot be marginalised in their own country and neither can Nationalists. Equality and mutual respect are not just moral ideals, they are in practical terms the only ground on which the two communities can reach a stable equilibrium.

There is widespread agreement also that the Stormont talks have, potentially at least, all the ingredients necessary for meaningful negotiations. They are inclusive in intent and could become so in practice, subject only to decisions which lie in the hands of the republican movement itself. They address all strands. They have a comprehensive agenda, with all issues unquestionably on the table. They have distinguished, expert and very patient chairmanship. They can be the vehicle for a meaningful accommodation if the political will to reach it is there all round.

Progress in the talks has been excruciatingly slow. Naturally, we welcome as a positive step the agreement which has now been reached on the agenda for the remainder of the opening plenary. We hope all participants will use it briskly to get down as quickly as possible to the core purpose of the talks; building new political relationships in place of those which have failed.

There have been suggestions that the slow progress was somehow due to the Governments dragging their feet, or standing around waiting for Sinn Féin to come in. Nothing could be further from the truth as all the participants know. We do indeed want to see an inclusive process in place. It would be very strange to want otherwise or to view as anything other than a regrettable necessity the absence of representatives elected by a fairly sizeable constituency. It would be wrong to assume that, because the IRA has blocked the door to Sinn Féin, the constituency has thereby ceased to exist or can simply be ignored to the extent of being totally insignificant.

The stability of a kind which came from the politics of domination is no longer possible. The stability of the future, which we all want to see, will inevitably come from the politics of inclusion by whatever route it is ultimately achieved. That is why we have sought to maintain a consistent and careful balance on the issue of Sinn Féin participation. We are democrats and have a duty to encourage all those who seek a democratic mandate and commit themselves exclusively to the political path. We must give the necessary encouragement and support to those who are genuinely seeking a transition from violence to peace.

At the same time we equally have a duty to make sure that this encouragement does not compromise our fundamental principles or is viewed as weakness or vacillation in the face of terror. It is not easy to maintain that careful balance without being attacked for being either soft on terrorism or blind to the potential of the peace process. Nevertheless, I believe this consistent balance is right and should be maintained.

From the start it has been made clear to Sinn Féin, as to the loyalists, that dialogue with it and its inclusion in the negotiations depends on its commitment to peaceful and democratic means. The ending of the IRA ceasefire in February led immediately to the end of political-level contact with Sinn Féin, and it is the reason it has remained outside the talks. Likewise, while Sinn Féin's entry to negotiations continues to depend on an unequivocal restoration of the ceasefire, once inside it would be subject to the same disciplines as all other participants. It would have to make clear its total and absolute commitment to the Mitchell principles of democracy and non-violence, including the renunciation of the use of force, or threats of force, to influence the course or the outcome of all-party negotiations.

We would expect it to work constructively and in good faith to secure the implementation of all aspects of the report of the international body in the context of an inclusive and dynamic process in which mutual trust and confidence are built as progress is made on the issues of concern to all participants. We have sought to ensure a bridge for Sinn Féin out of the wilderness of its self-imposed isolation and into the democratic arena. To date the IRA has not allowed it to cross that bridge. It is not clear if the IRA ever will, but it remains there for Sinn Féin. We still hope it will cross that bridge and will do so soon before the spiral of violence becomes irreversible. If and when it does cross it, and has made it clear that it will not return to the other side, it will be treated like everyone else. It will have no more influence than that to which its support and the force of its arguments entitle it, and also no less.

There is no doubt, just as the consistent observance of the ceasefire has enhanced the credibility and standing of the loyalist parties, the collapse of the IRA ceasefire was an enormous blow to the credibility of the Sinn Féin leadership. The credibility gap which has to be bridged has widened with each sucessive atrocity.

Nevertheless, the futility of violence stands out in sharper relief than ever before. The logic of a wholehearted commitment to the political path as the only way forward is cogent as never before. In our anger or despair we must not gratuitously slam any door. Wiser counsels must one day prevail and it would be foolish to foreclose the capacity of our democratic system as a whole to respond wisely in turn.

Furthermore, we must not treat entry to negotiations as a kind of certificate of approval to be bestowed only on the like minded. Political dialogue and negotiations should more accurately be seen as a duty on all political leaders with any contribution to make. Disqualification should, therefore, relate to the minimum that is required to protect the political basis and fairness of the negotiating process as a level and strictly democratic playing field for all participants. In the Downing Street declaration and in the February communiqué the two Governments set out that minimum threshold. We should certainly not lower it and neither should we raise it to a new and unrealistic height.

While we are clear on our preference for a fully inclusive process, we are determined also to exploit to the full whatever option for political dialogue is available to us. The two Governments carry a heavy burden of responsibility in leading the process and in demonstrating that there is reason for hope even in the darkest days. We are in constant contact at all levels, in particular in an intensive and practical fashion at the Stormont talks.

At all stages we have taken initiatives to move the debate forward and to offer the parties ways out of the very great difficulties in which we find ourselves. We will continue to devote all our energies to making the political negotiations work. Even before the negotiations started we knew they were not going to be smooth or straightforward. As the Taoiseach has rightly stated, the negotiations are not about fine tuning aspects of public administration, they are about nothing less than achieving a settlement which can win the adherence and consent of two communities which have traditionally seen their identities as diametrically opposed to one another and their aspirations as irreconcilable.

In any context this would be a profoundly difficult task, even though I remain convinced that the two Governments have succeeded in defining the principles for, and sketching a possible outline of, an honourable and balanced agreement. Moreover, the poisonous legacies of violence, sectarianism and injustice continue to wreak their havoc and to infect fresh generations.

Many of us expressed the hope that the shocking events of the summer would have forced a reappraisal on all sides of what was at stake, and of the risks of political failure. While there has been some evidence of this, largely among those whose commitment to peace and agreement was already clear, a depressing amount of political energy has been wasted on the selective and distorted elaboration of fresh mythologies and the restocking of already ample inventories of historic recrimination.

Much of the current difficulties in the process derive from the vexed question of decommissioning. I have put on record on many occasions in this House and elsewhere exactly where I and the Government stand on this matter. I am aware of, and grateful for, the widespread support which exists for that stand throughout this House and more widely. Nevertheless, our views continue to be misinterpreted and misunderstood. To suggest that this is a complex question which, in practice, will be only resolved voluntarily and by agreement is to lay oneself open to the charge of being some kind of IRA fellow traveller or apologist. Still worse, it is to invite the accusation that one is indifferent to the terrible sufferings caused by illegally held weapons and explosives, above all in Northern Ireland.

Let me seek, once again, to set the record straight in this House. First of all, if it were within my power or, I am sure, that of any Members of this House, every item in the paramilitary arsenals, down to the last bullet, would be destroyed tomorrow, if we could do it. This generation has definitively rejected the use of violence for any political purpose whatsoever and repudiates and disowns the perpetrators.

Secondly, while as I emphasised earlier, our security forces continue to work for the total disarmament of all paramilitaries, we must not confuse that continuing security commitment with the essentially political goal of voluntary decommissioning by those holding illegal weapons. As is clear from the experience of countries which are substantially less democratic and open than ours, security measures alone, no matter how severe, are simply incapable of eradicating violence which, as is the case in Northern Ireland, has deep roots in our history and is intimately linked with fundamental disagreements. Only an approach based on dialogue and persuasion offers the hope of a lasting accommodation.

Full decommissioning in the sense of the Mitchell report will only come about on a voluntary basis. This logically and necessarily requires the co-operation of those actually holding the weapons. Decommissioning will not come about by making peremptory demands upon the paramilitaries, irrespective of the political context. Any peremptory approach belongs inevitably to the security dimension.

The decommissioning question has bedevilled the political atmosphere for 18 months and for a long time it looked as if the two divergent sets of strongly held opinions might be irreconcilable. However, the international body established by the Governments showed great skill and balance in devising a road map which showed us the way forward.

From the start the Irish Government has supported its analysis and recommendations. Before the talks began in June we, together with the British Government, committed ourselves to an approach whereby all participants in the negotiations should work constructively and in good faith to implement all aspects of the report. That remains our approach now. It is the only realistic approach to achieving the goal, and preventing the decommissioning issue wrecking the political talks. Senator Mitchell and his colleagues made it quite clear that decommissioning would only happen in the context of political agreement. Progress on decommissioning and political progress would be mutually reinforcing. In our communiqué of 28 February, the two Governments, borrowing the language of the report, identified that confidence building at the start of negotiations would, in addition to commitment to the Mitchell principles and an address to the proposals on decommissioning, I quote—

require that the parties have reassurance that a meaningful and inclusive process of negotiations is genuinely being offered to address the legitimate concerns of their traditions and the need for new political arrangements with which all can identify.

The international body made clear that agreement on practical decommissioning arrangements based on the principles set out in the report, required complex discussions of a technical nature in which all concerned with the issue would have to take part. In addition, decommissioning would happen only on a mutual basis, that is, through the involvement of both sets of paramilitaries. That mutuality will plainly only be possible if all parties are present at the negotiations. Actual decommissioning will only happen, therefore, as a result of intensive discussions running alongside political negotiations in which both Sinn Féin and the two loyalist parties are full participants. It will be the fruit of an inclusive peace process or it will not happen at all.

The proposal published a fortnight ago by the two Governments reiterated our commitment to work with all other participants in the negotiations to implement all aspects of the international body's report. We suggested that a committee be established to work to secure that goal, operating in parallel with the substantive political negotiations. As a demonstration of our good faith and of our determination to ensure that there would be no blockages on our part, both Governments have said that they would introduce enabling decommissioning legislation in their respective Parliaments so that, as progress is made on political issues, the legislative framework would be enacted by Christmas. We have committed ourselves to publish that proposed legislation as soon as possible. The Irish Government would also make available a range of expert personnel, including independent experts of international standing whom we would envisage playing an appropriate part in the work of a verification commission when it is established.

We are continuing to work intensively with the other participants in the negotiations to find a way forward which would offer a realistic chance of progress on this issue and would not stimulate either dangerous anxieties or unrealistic hopes. The very real emotional force, as well as the practical importance of the decommissioning question, has been underscored by the Lisburn bombs. There is, understandably, a profound reluctance to come face-to-face with those who have over the years excused or supported the great hurts inflicted upon the Unionist people in an effort to coerce them. There is also a continuing anxiety the threat of violence might be used alongside negotiations, or by die hard elements, even after the achievement of agreement. I do not for a moment say that these fears are unreal, but when examined they can surely be put in perspective. It would be defeatist and unwise to exploit them, or rely on them, to justify a refusal to negotiate. To risk the shipwreck of the negotiations on the rock of decommissioning would seem to confirm the primacy of the military over the political and to demonstrate the futility of dialogue and an abdication of politics. To insist on an approach to decommissioning which disregards the wisdom of the international body's report would, in essence, guarantee that decommissioning would never happen.

Unionists should have confidence in the continued commitment of the security forces on both sides of the Border as well as in their own continuing determination not to be intimidated. They should have confidence in the commitment of the two Governments and of all the other parties now in the negotiations to the Mitchell principles, which include a firm requirement that the use, or threat, of force to influence the course or outcome of the negotiations be renounced. They should have confidence in the legislative basis for the negotiations and the rules of procedure which between them offer ample safeguards. The principle of sufficient consensus and the commitment by both Governments to put the outcome of negotiations to referendum North and South are cumulative guarantees that no unacceptable blueprint will be forced upon them.

Not least, they should have confidence in the overwhelming Nationalist commitment to the principle that there can be no change in the constitutional status of Northern Ireland without the consent of a majority. That commitment has in recent years transformed the Irish Government's approach to Northern Ireland and means that we have no higher priority than the achievement of genuine agreement among the people of Northern Ireland and reconciliation between North and South. It also means that Northern Nationalists too are fully aware of the parameters which will frame a settlement. Unionists, in sum, ought to draw confidence from the position in which they start negotiations. Of course, it would be wrong and pointless to assure them that reaching agreement will not involve hard choices on their part — just as it would be wrong and pointless to offer such assurances to Nationalists and republicans.

The shared principles on which the British and Irish Governments have agreed, and which command broad support in both jurisdictions, imply that serious and meaningful change within Northern Ireland, and in its wider relationships, is necessary if, for the first time, its institutions are to reflect and accommodate the diverse identities and aspirations of its two communities. Without that there could be no real stability. I offer that assessment, not in pursuit of any hidden agenda but in recognition of the needs and ambitions of the Nationalist community within Northern Ireland. But if Unionists could themselves, as a community, make that imaginative leap and approach the negotiations in that spirit, then I am certain they would emerge from them in a position, though different, that had been fundamentally strengthened, not weakened, through a fresh partnership with their Nationalist neighbours.

We all need to ask ourselves which is better, the sterile certainty of political failure and the vacuum it would create or the constructive adventure of political negotiation which offers the hope of a better future for all. The Irish Government, for its part, stands firmly on the side of engagement and dialogue. It is well past the time that, together, we seized the opportunity which still exists and which we can still shape to our common benefit.

I have been in this House for as long as this problem has existed in Northern Ireland. I am as wise today as I was 27 years ago. It is one saga after another and one crisis after another. It is easy to point a finger but very difficult to find an answer to this problem. It is on the record that, after the British Government had agreed that the Tánaiste and the people of southern Ireland had a part to play and that we could only solve the problems of Northern Ireland together, David Trimble, a man with whom we had hoped to do business, told the Tánaiste he would only meet him when it suited him and that he would only discuss affairs which did not pertain to Northern Ireland. I was disappointed that the Tánaiste did not tell Mr. Trimble where he stood and that he had the support of the entire nation in negotiating the problems pertaining to Northern Ireland. I wanted the opportunity to say that before he left the House.

There is no quick solution to the problem. I watched a television programme last night which gave us the history of Mr. Trimble and his involvement in the paramilitaries. Anybody who saw that programme will realise we face a formidable task if we are ever to reach an understanding because when an agreement is reached and is about to be implemented, the ground will shift and David Trimble will look for a new excuse. This is so evident now that some people in his own party have decided that they can no longer stay in the party. I do not have high hopes that we will ever reach an understanding with David Trimble.

On the other side of the coin, I was one of those who went to Pittsburgh last week in the hope of generating investment in the North of Ireland and in the southern Border counties. I need not tell this House the effect the bomb in Lisburn has on that investment conference. It was a serious blow. Many Americans looking at the possibility of investing money in Ireland were shattered to see that the peace, once again, was gone thanks to the Provisional IRA, thanks to the stupidity of those people who believed they were contributing to the Irish cause.

They only gave John Major and the Conservative Party something to talk about at their party conference, which is usually a pretty flat affair. From a paramilitary point of view, it was a political disaster not only for the paramilitaries but for the entire country. It was sheer, utter stupidity. It dealt a destructive blow to the conference in Pittsburgh which had been held to attract investment to the north-west of Ireland, including the six southern Border counties. I was devastated; I could hardly believe it could happen at such a time. One must wonder who caused the explosion and damaged the prospect of bringing much needed jobs to the north of Ireland.

Over the past 27 years there have been many opportunities and aspirations for reaching a settlement in Northern Ireland. No county has suffered more than mine from the Troubles. The approximate cost of security for this State is £1 million per day. What could we do with £1 million a day in providing houses, jobs and other improvements? Britain is pumping £11 million per day into sustaining Northern Ireland. Britain is under enough financial pressure at present to count the cost of Northern Ireland. The IRA is stupid. Britain would press for and accept a settlement in Northern Ireland if the IRA would co-operate and be reasonable. The IRA must see that it will never put the British out of Northern Ireland with the gun and the bomb. All they will do is create more crises, more barbed wire, more checkpoints and make it impossible for the people in Northern Ireland to survive.

We have had 18 months in which the tourism industry has revived and flourished in my county. It behoves this Government and the Tánaiste who have a communication with the IRA to use it, even if that contact is not as good as that of Deputy Albert Reynolds. The IRA seem to have no understanding or wisdom. The Taoiseach, Tánaiste and the Government must tell the IRA there is a settlement on the cards and that it is about time the IRA settled this long saga. There is no way a settlement can ever be reached until there is decisive action by the IRA to give it a chance. More than a year is involved: the history of the country and the future of the people of Northern Ireland, who will not disappear, are at stake.

The Tánaiste and the Taoiseach must have serious consultations, not arms-length negotiations, with the IRA. It is not so long since they refused to meet the IRA and perhaps there were good grounds for that decision. Nevertheless, the Irish Government must say loudly and clearly to the IRA, Gerry Adams and Sinn Féin that there will never be peace or a settlement in Northern Ireland until they stop the violence and give peace a chance. It is ironic that at every opportunity in Northern Ireland we see them appearing with placards carrying the slogans "We support peace" or "Give peace a chance". I do not understand what they mean.

My county has suffered greatly, as have the other five Border counties. Nobody can calculate the price we have paid in terms of lack of development during the past 27 years. We are competing on a serious level with the industrialists of Northern Ireland, whose deprivations of the past 25 years have been paid for by the British Government. However, we are not competing on a level playing pitch. Nobody in their senses could set up a business in the six southern Border companies and compete against the grants available over the Border. Eighty per cent grants and other funding being pumped into the North makes it unattractive for an industrialist to consider locating in the six southern Border counties.

In one week we have lost two industries. We lost a shirt company which was providing employment in Newtown Cunningham. It has moved to a new factory in the North because 50 or 60 per cent grants make it attractive to do so. Not a cold farthing is available here, despite the number of agencies that have been established. I listened to Deputy Nealon's contribution last night in the Lower House. He rightly pointed out that we have too many agencies which are confused about their tasks.

I attended the formal opening by EU Commissioner Pádraig Flynn of the peace and reconciliation fund office in Monaghan. Everybody acknowledged the value of the office being established in Monaghan. I invited the fund's representative with responsibility for Donegal, Mr. Paul Skinner, to Donegal. He met six community groups. He listened to their contributions and when they finished he told them that the peace and reconciliation fund could not spend money on bricks and mortar in the South. I only had to wait one week to learn that a new advance factory costing £800,000 was built in Strabane with funds from the peace and reconciliation fund. My contribution to this debate might not be relevant or important but why was money from the peace and reconciliation fund refused for a shirt factory in Newtown Cunningham — the proprietor of the factory is Doug Irwin — while money was provided across the bridge in Strabane? The Minister must give me an answer. I will pass it to the people in Donegal who do not understand how that can happen.

It is part of a pattern. It is now unattractive to invest south of the Border. Not one pound is available for a small tourism project in the South. We have heard about the schemes to save the west from the bottom up and everyday a new organisation is launched. One does not know where one stands. Deputy Nealon correctly told the Lower House that the proliferation of new agencies is organised confusion. One does not know where to advise somebody to go, one does not know what application form to seek. This is the legacy of the troubles that have been supported by the IRA; this is the price we must pay. The IRA must be told as much in straight language by the Taoiseach and the Tánaiste because one gets the impression that the IRA is operating in a vacuum and do not know what they are costing the taxpayer and those who are hoping to build a future for themselves in Ireland. This is a serious situation.

It saddens me to say that I do not have confidence that a settlement will be reached. We are only tinkering with the problem. There is no real drive by the Government to come to grips with it. I am not waving a political flag but it was a different ball game when Deputy Reynolds was in charge. We expected something to happen. Sadly, today I expect nothing to happen.

The David Trimbles and Gerry Adamses are playing politics and dancing to a different tune. We are told that nothing will happen until after the British general election. I am not confident that the issue will be resolved under the present regime. There is no genuine attempt to talk sense into the IRA. If the IRA said tomorrow "there is a ceasefire; we will give negotiations a fair chance", those people who prevent a settlement being reached will have to be seen to be out of court.

Will the Minister tell the Government it is time it took this matter seriously? Those of us who live in or near the Six Counties are paying a very high price.

With the permission of the House, I wish to share my time with Senator Hayes.

Acting Chairman

Is that agreed? Agreed.

I congratulate the Tánaiste on the plain language and clear thinking in this speech. He has my support.

It is useless to name call. I agree with what the Taoiseach said, but that should be the end of the name calling as far as the IRA and Sinn Féin are concerned. When you call them monsters you sing their song. They have been called this for 25 years and know how to respond. They should be engaged in dialogue much more publicly. Although they are not in the talks that should not stop them from engaging in some form of limited dialogue in order to let the other side see how they are thinking.

At the first press conference of the Peace Train organisation I did not call them names but accorded them the honour of regarding them as an army. I asked them for military answers to questions such as the reason for bombing the train line. We did not receive an answer but at least we showed they did not have one.

We should stop watching the broth bubbling and go to the door of the kitchen. We must look at the background to this. The Northern Ireland problem has been overestimated in the eyes of the world. I have been to many funerals of victims of loyalist and republican assassins and do not underestimate the hurt that has been caused but these troubles began about housing. It was cranked up by the violent loyalist reaction to perfectly reasonable demands from the Catholic population. I get the impression that with every concession given and the righting of one wrong after another, the Nationalist side puts on the spectacles you get in an opticians to which you can add ever stronger lenses. The result is that problems which were overlooked 25 years ago are now major issues. I will not mention any one in particular but they are there for all to see.

As regards trying to talk constructively to the republican sector, it seems the IRA is confused to the point where it and its spokesmen in Sinn Féin are out of kilter. Usually their language is terse and tight but in their public statelengt ment after the bombing of the army barracks in Lisburn, they actually apologised for civilian injuries. However, in cases such as Teebane, civilians who worked in army camps were a particularly juicy target for them. There is evidence that they need help and we should ask them, for example, to dwell more on the 250,000 Roman Catholics who want to stay in the United Kingdom. These people are never mentioned. They cannot say they want to remain in the UK. Monsignor Faul is almost the only man on that side of the argument who acknowledges this. We should ask the IRA and Sinn Féin to talk about these Catholics and allow them into the equation.

All parties should remember disadvantaged Catholics. They support Sinn Féin because they believe that party is the only one which can protect them. That is why we should engage Sinn Féin in dialogue even though it is outside the talks. I am not talking about television dialogue which is pathetic. I have hardly ever seen a satisfactory television confrontation with Sinn Féin except the one, said he modestly, where I met a republican at a racecourse and dealt with him in a couple of minutes.

We should understand that the IRA, in safe areas of the North, is cranking up the fighting mood. The people in Crossmaglen are in no danger of being shot by loyalist assassins. There is pressure from these safe IRA areas to keep the fighting going. I do not think that the IRA in north Belfast, for example, is as keen to carry on the fight and we should remember this.

We should talk to Sinn Féin about the use of the Irish language as a political weapon. I support the Taoiseach on this issue. It alienates Protestants further.

The IRA and Sinn Féin cannot dodge the issue of consent any longer. They were left looking very lonely and vulnerable at the Forum for Peace and Reconciliation when they would not go along with it.

The present IRA strategy leads to mutual molestation — too many young lives are lost. At some forum Sinn Féin should be invited to consider options other than talks backed by brute force. They should, for example, consider models other than a unitary island state. Despite the denial by Protestants that they are Irish, any North/South referendum following talks agreement should be deemed to be joint self determination by one nation expressed in two polls. Protestants should be deemed to be Irish by Sinn Féin, their denial of their Irishness is largely Sinn Féin's fault.

We should welcome the UUP's initiative in helping the agreed agenda and for placing decommissioning further down that agenda. However, the DUP and UUP should remember they do not just represent the Orange Order. I am told there are 10,000 people in the Order although I think this is an exaggeration. That leaves 890,000 people who are not in it. I wrote an article in The Belfast Telegraph in which I said that we were not pleased with the way in which we, the vast majority of Protestants, were portrayed to the world as a consequence of Drumcree. The tourism industry was left in ruins and it should go on record that the support I received from the non-Orange sector of the population was fabulous. The news editor of The Belfast Telegraph rang me to emphasise this.

I say to Mr. Trimble and Mr. Paisley that by ignoring the public relations aspect of what they are doing they throw away the loyalist ceasefire gains for the sake of winning a 17th century faction fight. They choose not to understand the major principle of politics that you must be not only right but seen to be right. The last six months have seen Unionism at its lowest since the burning of Bombay Street.

The Republic has not been free of guilt. Arising from the Supreme Court case taken by the McGimpsey brothers, I was bitterly disappointed that the Republic chose to use Articles 2 and 3 of the Constitution as a bargaining point. Since I know that the vast majority of the people in the Republic were dismayed to learn that this was a territorial demand — they regard it as an aspiration — it would have seemed reasonable for a new wording to be put to the people of the Republic indicating that the nation contains two major religious and political traditions and it is the nation so described that decides how the island of Ireland is to be governed. That would have done enormous good. There is a growing realisation among Government agencies that Catholic areas do not have a monopoly on deprivation.

I wish to quote from a paper on community development in Protestant areas in Londonderry. One speaker said:

There is a growing realisation and recognition among Government agencies and major funders that Catholic areas do not have a monopoly on multiple deprivation and disadvantage. The apathy within the Protestant community has been changing to an anger that their areas have been neglected by Government Departments, funding bodies and even some of their own Unionist representatives. Alongside the anger, there has been a growing sense of Protestant alienation which, in many ways, sees itself in retreat on a number of fronts: social, political, economical and cultural.

The main drive behind my contribution today is that we should bear in mind those who have been victims throughout the troubles. When the talks develop, the Republic in concert with the other bodies acting as referees or brokers, should always bear in mind that the Protestant perception is if the British leave this island, nobody outside Ireland will give a monkeys about what happens to Protestants. If the British ever left this island, for whatever reason, Protestant rights could be trampled on, scrapped, withered away or suffer the benign fate of the mixed marriage laws. There would not be any media coverage because Britain would no longer be involved. The combination of Britain and an ancient religious war brought the media there over in the first place. That Protestant fear should always be addressed.

I welcome the Minister of State, Deputy Burton, to the House. One of the most important parts of this debate was the Tánaiste's speech, particularly when it is read in the context of the volatility of the loyalist ceasefire after the last number of weeks. He stated "This generation has definitely rejected the use of violence for any political purpose whatsoever and repudiates and disowns the perpetrators".

The message should go from this House this afternoon to the Unionist and loyalist communities that this State will do everything in its power to track down illegal weaponry and members of illegal organisations. I congratulate, in the presence of the Minister of State at the Department of Justice, the Garda Síochána on its great successes over the last number of months in tracking down illegal weaponry. This State will never stand over any fudging of the issue of political violence. That was the kernel of what the Tánaiste said this afternoon.

The only way to solve this problem is, as we have all said, through all party talks. The talks process is the only way forward. The present process has a much better chance of success than that of 1991. Why? For the first time the vast majority of participants are around the same table. The legitimate concerns of all sides are being expressed at the same time. The three strands are being taken together, as compared to 1991 when they were separated. At last, we now have a process that may do something for the people of Northern Ireland.

I encourage the republican movement to follow the example of the late President de Valera and Seán MacBride. There have been men of courage in every generation since this State was founded who moved from the military route to the constitutional one. When Fianna Fáil accepted its seats in the Oireachtas in 1927 and when the late President de Valera formed the first Fianna Fáil Government in 1932, that party recognised and legitimised this State and, thereby, moved from the military route. The same can be said of Clann na Poblachta in the 1940s and the great courage shown by people such as Seán MacBride in moving away from the IRA military route to the constitutional one.

Is the Senator sure they did?

It is the responsibility of this generation of republican leaders to follow the constitutional route. As Senator McAughtry said, that route must be embedded in the principle of consent. The Tánaiste rightly said that the principle of consent has two sides. It is not just about the Unionists being able to veto every agreement which comes from the talks process — it is also about Nationalists having their concerns and views fully legitimised in whatever agreement comes from that talks process.

I say to the republicans that the only way forward is through talks and the constitutional route can achieve much of what they and their supporters want. The SDLP achieved more for the Nationalist people in one day than 25 or 26 years of violence by the IRA and Sinn Féin. Let them follow that constitutional route because it is the only one which can succeed.

Senator Manning asked what the IRA actually want. None of us know the answer to that question. However, it will not be gained from the "Brits out" slogans daubed on the walls of republican areas. The British will not be leaving Ireland. We do not want them to leave because the British experience is part of Ireland. Republicans must be realistic about what they want to achieve if a ceasefire is called. If they are not going to be realistic, let us not have a second ceasefire because an airy fairy fantasy world was created after the last IRA ceasefire. I ask them to seriously consider what they want to achieve because everyone has to compromise in this process. The present talks process in Belfast is the only way we can begin to deal with this problem.

When I called with other Senators for this debate last week, I said I felt this was "make your mind up time" for Gerry Adams. I believe this to be true for there is no doubt in my mind that we are now at a critical juncture in terms of political developments, both within the North and between the two parts of the island.

By exploding bombs at the Thiepval army base, the IRA has shown a cynical contempt for all the people of this island. In placing the second of the two bombs in hospital grounds to which the injured were being ferried and where civilians were particularly exposed, it has violated the most basic conventions of humanity to which it so frequently and hypocritically makes appeal itself. If it is a war, as it claims, it has certainly ensured it is a dirty one.

It is clearly unconcerned that its actions may lead to a vicious retaliation against civilian members of its own community and is quite content to use them as Catholic cannon fodder in its campaign to usurp the democratic process. It is also clear from its actions that it will never regard the Unionist majority in Northern Ireland as fully human and, therefore, deserving the same regard for their civil and human rights as others until they make the miraculous conversion to nationalism, to which, for some obscure reason, it believes a campaign of murder, assassination, bombing and bloodshed will persuade them. The stark evidence that its continued violence could precipitate a form of civil war in which the civilian population of Dublin and other southern cities will once more become innocent targets apparently also leaves it unmoved.

There are several possible, and by no means exclusive, reasons for its action. The first is the historic perception that the political movement towards independence progresses by fits and starts in direct relationship to the intensity and ferocity of sporadic terrorist outrages. This phenomenon was noted by James Joyce in a lecture he gave in Trieste in 1907 on Fenianism, where he said:

After each one of these crimes, when the general indignation has calmed a little, an English minister proposes to the House some reform measure for Ireland, and the Fenians and Nationalists revile each other with the greatest scorn, one side attributing the measure to the success of parliamentary tactics and the other attributing it to the persuasive faculty of the knife or the bomb.

Regrettably, events of the last two years have appeared to give some confirmation of this view in terms of the willingness or unwillingness of the British Government to convene meetings, set dates, provide a time scale, etc. This may be merely a perception, but it is a dangerous one which is fostered in the South by the continuing chorus maintaining that since the IRA ceasefire, no concessions have been granted to the Nationalist side despite the absence of violence. This is quite untrue.

Why should the Irish public, North or South, debase themselves with fawning gratitude simply because the IRA has ceased to murder citizens? Moreover, the ceasefire was marked by clear advances, albeit gradual ones. Border roads were opened, bridges were rebuilt, the Army presence was scaled down, troops were removed to barracks, the RUC recommenced unarmed patrols and some, although not enough, concessions were made to republican prisoners. These are not negligible matters but they are blithely ignored by many people in public life in the South. This should not be so. We must learn to be generous in our appreciation of such moves while continuing to press especially for more humane treatment for Irish prisoners in Britain.

Yesterday some Members of the Joint Committee on Foreign Affairs had the privilege of listening to the Speaker of the Canadian Parliament. He indicated to us that the Canadian way was not to resort to violence in situations such as that obtaining in the province of Quebec but for the different sides, however strong their zeal, to talk themselves and each other to a standstill at which point a resolution inevitably emerged. It would seem that for the republican side to resort once more to the abysmal depths of violence we witnessed at Lisburn after a period of less than two years during which advances were made shows that they have not learned this fundamental lesson of democracy and that they are, to put it mildly, both trigger-happy and politically irresponsible.

It also raises the question that, supposing we reached a stage at which Sinn Féin was accepted into the inclusive talks, what does the present evidence suggest would be the end result? It is overwhelmingly obvious that the talks process would not lead and, indeed, could not lead in the foreseeable future to the kind of outcome that is the objective of both Sinn Féin and the IRA. The evidence of their behaviour so far indicates that, in those circumstances, they would again have recourse to the bomb and the bullet. It is no doubt for this reason that Sinn Féin representatives at the Forum for Peace and Reconciliation refused to sign the basic democratic principle of consent.

It is not acceptable for anyone on this island to be a part-time democrat. Mr. Adams, Mr. Morrison and Mr. McGuinness are, as I said in the House last week, faced with make your mind up time. They can no longer espouse the slogan of the ballot box in one hand and the bomb in the other. It is not "both and" but "either or"— the ballot box or the bomb. It is time for Mr. Adams and his colleagues to make it clear on which side of the divide they stand.

I am not particularly concerned about forcing Mr. Adams, Mr. Morrison and so on into formal condemnation of acts of violence. Such condemnations in the present circumstance would sound hollow and unconvincing, especially to the Unionist population. What I ask for and what I believe is essential is for the leadership of Sinn Féin to separate themselves clearly and unambiguously from the action of the self-styled army with which they have to date acted in guilty concert. Such a stance might require some courage. However, in electoral terms its seems clear that it would be popular even with its own supporters — I point to the fact that approximately 97 per cent of the readers of The Irish News indicated in a recent widescale survey that they were against the resumption of violence. It would be helpful if, even in the absence of a condemnation of IRA outrages, Sinn Féin ceased to be the apologists for continued bloodshed. Let us have an end to equivocation.

When the IRA ceasefire was called some cautious people wanted an acknowledgement that it would be permanent. Sinn Féin had considerable difficulty with this concept and performed linguistic gymnastics at every turn to avoid using this word. Perhaps now we know why. What was envisaged was not the kind of ceasefire we were lead to believe but a cessation of violence which would not continue if the unelected militarists of the republican movement were not satisfied with the rate of progress towards achieving a solution which appealed only to a minority of voters on this island. For this reason, however difficult as it may be, it is necessary that a future ceasefire should have the qualities of clarity, unambiguity and permanence. Nothing else will satisfy and it will be difficult for many to place full credence even on such an assurance. Such a ceasefire must also include an end to kangaroo courts, revenge attacks and the maiming of citizens as well as the arrogant assumption of the right to exclude citizens from this island by threat.

We are frequently told when we call for a debate on Northern Ireland that the time is not appropriate because inflammatory language from this House may set things back. I never regarded this as a serious contention. There is no recorded instance of a debate in either House precipitating, by virtue of the sentiments expressed, the smallest incident on the streets of either Northern Ireland or the Republic. In a conflagration one is unlikely to notice a puff of hot air. On the other hand, the language of some of the central players is highly dangerous and worthy of comment.

Mr. Adams, for example, who is nowadays pretty careful about his language let the mask slip on one notable occasion when, in response to the chants of a crowd in Belfast about the IRA, he said into the microphone with a half smile "they haven't gone away you know". What does this mean if we decode it other than that the section of his movement concentrating for the time being on the ballot box were aware of and happy to receive the assistance of colleagues still devoted to the bomb and the bullet.

Recent demands from republican sources for calm and logical debate need to be placed in the context of the highly abusive sectarian and racist tone of their publication, An Poblacht. As long as this journal peddles its message of hate and contempt, how can anyone take seriously claims of the republican movement to be interested in genuine brotherhood with those whom it regards and describes as subhuman?

Let us turn to the issue of Drumcree. As a practising member of the Church of Ireland, I would like to say that with a few exceptions, such as the former Dean of St. Patrick's Cathedral, Victor Griffin, its response has been inadequate, lacking in courage and in moral or political leadership. The situation is clear. Church property was used and church personnel were involved in events which, although they could be presented in a neutral light as religious or commemorative, were as everyone knows inevitably destined to cause disharmony, civil strife and potentially large scale casualties. To permit any form of religious sanction for such activity in the present situation was totally wrong. As in the case of the opening of the tunnel in the old city of Jerusalem by the Israeli authorities, the question is not whether it was done before or whether there was a legal precedent or entitlement but of sensitivity to the perception of the surrounding population.

While I recognise it is unlikely that church authorities could legally have prevented the rector from permitting these events, why was there such a deafening silence from most of the church authorities? Why did the Church of Ireland officially, through its Primate and Bishops, not disassociate itself from such events and condemn them outright? Was it afraid of alienating elements within its congregation and if so, should it not have asked itself would the founder of its church, Jesus Christ who chased the money changers from the temple, not have been prepared to risk alienation? Where is the prophetic voice of my church? How is it tolerable for members of the Church of Ireland, in particular clergymen, to give assent to the tenets of the Orange Order or to remain members of such a group as long as the aims, objectives and practices of that group are so nakedly sectarian and anti-ecumenical? There is a clear contradiction here. The Church of Ireland is and has declared itself to be an ecumenical church in full support of dialogue with the other churches with a strong hope and intention of achieving full intercommunion. Membership of the Orange Order on the other hand specifically precludes members from attending services of the Roman Catholic Church. It is not possible to serve God and Mammon and in this case the Orange Order is clearly Mammon.

These are awkward matters and difficult to face, especially for church authorities or for the British Government. Both have shown themselves lacking by their refusal to confront these issues. I cannot find it in my heart to blame the RUC for Drumcree. It was placed in an invidious position. A local police force known to and associated with the community they were asked to restrain was subject to intense pressure, blackmail, threats and intimidation to an extent that no civilian police force should be asked to sustain. At that point I have no doubt that matters became the responsibility of the British Army acting as the legitimate representative of the State.

The Orange Order at its first breach of the civil law should have been confronted by the forces of the Crown. When armoured plated earth moving equipment was introduced it was the clear responsibility of the British Government to instruct the military commander to drive a tank over it and flatten it into the ground. Had this been done, the law would have been preserved and the right of the citizens of Northern Ireland to free progress along the Queen's highway would have been maintained. However, they lost their nerve, whether for political reasons or not I do not judge except to say that it was a serious and dangerous miscalculation by the British authorities.

It also clearly called into question the much vaunted respect for law and order of the Orange Order. It is easy to respect law and order when it suits and to deny its authority in circumstances where compliance with it does not suit. That is what being an adult citizen is all about. I accuse the Orange Order of bad citizenry and bad faith in deliberately going outside the law to seek confrontation. I am not saying all Orangemen are evil, many are good, honest and decent people. In Joyce's Dubliner's a character in “Ivy Day in the Committee Room”, Mr. Crofton, is dismissed as an Orangeman only to be defended by a Dublin working class Catholic who says of course he is an Orangeman and a damned decent Orangeman too. I have no doubt that it is possible to be a damned decent Orangeman but I also have no doubt that there is something rotten at the heart and core of Orangeism and its essential sectarian nature with the awful neurotic certainty that goes with it. I have always believed in the power of positive doubt and unless we admit as human beings that we are vulnerable, unsure and frail, we will always repeat the inhuman errors of previous generations.

What was great about Deputy Reynolds' participation in the peace process was not that he was an overwhelming academic intellect but precisely because he was ordinary and had taken the prophetic step of abandoning the baggage of the past wanting only to deal with the practical human realities of living in the present and forming the future in a way which would accommodate all traditions on the island.

I well remember being at a high level meeting in Oxford where some high Tories were inclined to be dismissive of Deputy Reynolds as a pet food manufacturer and former dance band impresario. I did my best to disabuse them of this notion telling them, as I believe it to be true, that a man who creates substantial employment in his own area through developing a pet food factory and has travelled the length and breadth of the 32 counties organising social functions is one who will have his finger on the pulse of the people and will know in his gut precisely what he can deliver and how this can be achieved. Sinn Féin tried to acquire some of the kudos from Albert Reynolds's reputation by associating itself with his contribution to the peace process.

The question of internment was raised at the beginning of this week on "Questions and Answers" on RTÉ television. This has always been a very tempting easy solution and there have been times in the past when I have been tempted towards it. However, I am in no doubt whatever that any notion that it would improve the situation at present is a dangerous illusion. Apart from anything else, because of the clever line adopted by the loyalist paramilitaries and the representatives of the PUP it would be politically impossible to introduce internment on an evenhanded basis. This would mean it would be directed once more solely at Roman Catholics and the Nationalist population. This is not just counterproductive; it is a recipe for complete disaster. We ought to learn the lesson we have been trying to teach Sinn Féin and its IRA comrades, however difficult and exasperating, we must keep our political nerve and not reach for the security option alone.

On the other hand, the law of the State must be observed. By accepting too gullibly the bona fides of the IRA's ceasefire, the authorities on both sides of the Border relaxed police measures in a natural desire to win the hearts and minds of particularly the Nationalist population. This clearly permitted the IRA to move personnel and equipment into place so that when the time is right, according to its book, it could set out on a campaign of terrorism once more. This cannot be allowed to continue.

With the permission of the House, I will share my time with Senator Cosgrave.

Is that agreed? Agreed.

I was glad to hear Senator Norris's contribution because, without putting too fine a point on it, I am rather tired of debates in this House where people with genuine motives and feelings express extraordinary platitudes and say very little of what matters, particularly on the issue of Northern Ireland. It is easy, and compulsory, to come in here and condemn violence, express one's own credentials for peace and sit down.

I do not believe the situation has ever been worse than it is now. It cannot be measured in terms of the number of bombs being planted and bullets fired but in the potential for that to happen and the atmosphere on the ground which is appalling at present.

We in this part of the country are living in cloud-cuckoo-land. It is self-induced and wishful thinking. I do not believe there ever was a ceasefire and the evidence points to that. Throughout the so-called ceasefire Sinn Féin/IRA was preparing for war. That is not a ceasefire; that is a tactic, and that is all that was going on. Neither do I believe there was ever a peace process but it shows the extent to which we have been brainwashed that we use the expression as though it was a fact of life. There was no peace process. There was a group of politicians who, to their shame, were dancing to the Sinn Féin tune and subscribing to the Sinn Féin/IRA agenda. That is what was happening. Many people warned about it and those of us who did so were branded as prophets of doom. Unfortunately, we have been proved correct.

There was no peace process. There was a hope of brief peace. Very naive and innocent people did what the IRA wanted them to do in the hope of peace, and they have been fooled. They were given a great deal of help by many in the media and particularly RTÉ. It is an absolute disgrace that RTÉ should have had Gerry Adams on "The Late Late Show" for a soft interview two weeks ago while the ceasefire was not in operation. I cannot see any justification for giving him such a platform to talk about issues which are not related to violence and present him as a normal person. He is not a normal person or politician.

The night before last I gather Martin McGuinness was on "Questions and Answers" portrayed, again, as some sort of "normal" politician with all the other politicians. Mr. McGuinness and Mr. Adams are apologists for the IRA and they are being courted, tolerated and given platforms by our national broadcasting station. That is intolerable.

Why are they continually given this platform? The reason is quite obvious. It is not because they represent the people; they do not but because there is a smell of sulphur about them, they are somehow exciting and can influence events because they can influence the IRA who plant bombs. That is what I mean by the agenda being dictated by Sinn Féin/IRA and official Ireland is consenting and, indeed, facilitating it.

Senator Norris was right when he said that there has been a give in these so-called negotiations. I do not know what else the IRA wanted. Section 31 was repealed and the most powerful platform they could be given in this country is open to them day and night to tell lies. They were given open Border roads; the release of prisoners; the so-called Forum for Peace of Reconciliation was set up, which was a mockery in terms of its name and participants; and the army withdrew from the streets. What more do they want? They want a complete and utter victory over the majority of the population in the Northern Ireland, they want to crush them.

The reality of — people know this but they dare not say it — is that people have been fooled. The whole peace process was a confidence trick. Deputy Reynolds and Mr. John Hume were fooled. Deputy Spring, who was present today, was fooled as were leading Europeans and the President of the United States. That is the horrific scale of what has gone on in the last two years and the Lisburn bomb tells it all. There was no ceasefire; there was a tactical stoppage in order to allow them to regroup. We hoped there was some sort of ceasefire but there was not.

Canary Wharf, unfortunately, gave the lie to everything we hoped for and believed in over the last 18 months because there is no point in having a second ceasefire. After Canary Wharf the Government said it would allow Sinn Féin/IRA into the talks if they called another ceasefire. How can they? Another ceasefire would only produce the same set of circumstances, that is, a ceasefire for as long as the IRA decided. It would be blackmail and would prove that these people were liars because Martin McGuinness is a liar — nothing else. It was Martin McGuinness who lied. He said that the ceasefire would hold in all circumstances. It has not held in all circumstances. It held as long as they felt it was convenient.

Can one attack somebody who is not present to defend themselves?

If Senator Farrell wishes to defend Mr. McGuinness, he may do so.

Someone who is not here to defend himself is being attacked.

Mr. McGuinness is capable of defending himself in other forums, to which he is given a great deal of access. If Senator Farrell wishes to defend him, I will give way.

I do not wish to do so. I am asking whether someone who is not here to defend himself should be attacked.

The practice is that someone who is not here to defend themselves cannot be attacked. However, if someone is in the public domain, that is different.

He is certainly different. The Tánaiste said political level contact had been reduced or eliminated in the case of the IRA and Sinn Féin. This is an empty gesture. Civil servants meet with these people and convey messages back to Ministers. That is a cosmetic exercise. We should ostracise these people. We still seem to be frightened of cutting them out of the political process. They are not normal people and should be kept off the airwaves. We cannot trust them any longer if they say there is a ceasefire as we know their word is not their bond. Section 31 should be reimposed and An Poblacht banned. The existence of these people and their cohorts should not be publicised or encouraged until we are convinced they are completely committed to democracy.

I welcome this debate to review what has happened over the last couple of years, particularly how Sinn Féin have been treated and the manner in which they have responded. Many people have been duped and continue to be duped by this organisation. A distinction should not be made between members of Sinn Féin and their colleagues who make up the IRA. These are semantics as both sides know what is going on.

It was suggested that the Canary Wharf and Manchester bombings were carried out by splinter groups. Nothing happens within that organisation without proper planning. After such incidents the same people appear in the media with their usual manipulative style, saying the peace process must be pushed forward. These people plan and carry out bombings at Canary Wharf and Manchester, the murder of Garda Jerry McCabe and even a Member of this House.

We must review the situation where people waltz around Government Buildings or the White House while their colleagues commit murder. It is time for a get tough policy. We should stop spoonfeeding these people because they have manipulated the media and will continue to do so. I cringe when they appear on television. It has been said that reporters ask them difficult questions. To date, they seem to have got a soft run from some of our journalists.

We have to learn from the past. In relation to the release of prisoners, how many have been involved in or have tacit knowledge of or given advice about specific events? They did not move to a new desk job when they were released. The reality is that they are involved in planning various atrocities. A get tough policy should be pursued by politicians in the Republic. During the cessation of violence there were many punishment beatings to which far too many politicians turned a blind eye. There was a lack of criticism of what was going on. While these spokesmen were performing for the cameras, people were knee-capped and told to get out of certain areas. Politicians did not grasp that nettle.

We have to go forward. It may be necessary, as Senator O'Toole said earlier, to push ahead and forget about Sinn Féin. At what price do we want Sinn Féin in these talks? I hope this debate leads to a greater realisation of the problems with which we are dealing.

I wish to share my time with Senator Neville.

Acting Chairman

Is that agreed? Agreed.

We hoped and thought the type of statements we are having this afternoon had been consigned to the past. At an early stage in what has been called the peace process, I expressed, not too confidently, the hope it would lead to lasting peace. At the time, I was regarded as being something of a Jeremiah. Unfortunately it has transpired that much of our hope has turned to ashes. The task which confronts us as constitutional and democratic politicians is to reconstruct the edifice of peace.

Senator Ross is right in saying there has been a certain element of self-delusion and wishful thinking in the peace process and how we thought Sinn Féin was committed to it. On the basis of my experience at the Forum for Peace and Reconciliation, where I was privileged to serve on behalf of the Progressive Democrats, I came to one conclusion and nothing has happened subsequently to change that conclusion.

The compromises which are at the heart of democratic politics do not exist for Sinn Féin and the IRA. Sinn Féin has one objective — a United Ireland. By what means is that achieved? If it feels it can achieve it by bombing and killing 5,000 people or by talk, it will do whatever is required. The compromise at the heart of a democracy does not exist for these fascists. The republican movement believes in force as a political tool. Perhaps what happened in Lisburn has confirmed the merit of that approach. What did we see after a soldier was blown to bits? Following his death, a succession of Sinn Féin members appeared on television throughout the world. The apologists for the violence were frequently seen on television. Over a period of time, section 31 of the Broadcasting Act was repealed, prisoners were released and Mr. Adams visited the US where he was fêted by the American administration. He travelled to Frankfurt where he was also fêted to launch a book. What was achieved by, or what gesture was made in return for, these concessions and media opportunities? Nothing. The response was to blow up a British soldier. There is a major contradiction in this regard. There was also a contradiction at Drumcree regarding the conduct of people purporting to worship in a Christian place.

How can we place any value on statements made by Sinn Féin spokespersons when ten tonnes of explosives were discovered in a London house? What value can be placed on such statements when the IRA was preparing a bomb for Canary Wharf during the visit of the President of the United States to the Republic and Northern Ireland? How can those circles be squared? Sinn Féin members state that they do not represent the IRA but that they will not condemn bombings because they do not partake of the politics of condemnation. They also state that they sympathise with the victims but they do not condemn and they inform us that they are not the IRA. The semantics continue.

Earlier, the Tánaiste proclaimed that we are democrats. The Houses of the Oireachtas, the British Parliament and parliaments throughout the world must proclaim that they are democratic and are prepared to make the compromises at the heart of political democracy to achieve peace. The democratic way is the only way. The peace process does not belong to Sinn Féin; it is the peace process of constitutional politicians. We must proclaim this and defend it. Fascism and democracy are incompatible. If we have not learned that from the history of this century, we have not learned anything. The compromises at the heart of the democratic process must be permitted to operate.

In the Downing Street Declaration, the framework document and the joint statement of the two Governments we will find the basis for a way forward. Certain principles and actions are necessary if we are to achieve a political settlement. My party Leader referred to these in the Dáil when she stated that a new political order in Northern Ireland must have genuine equality of esteem and recognition for both communities, a written constitution should be established for Northern Ireland which would include a Bill of rights and democratic institutions and acceptance of the principles that the external constitutional status of Northern Ireland must be decided by the majority of its people.

This goes back to the principle of consent which was discussed for many months at Dublin Castle. However, when it came to the crunch, Sinn Féin would not subscribe to it. There must be a maximum degree of self-government in Northern Ireland and policing structures that have cross-community support. There must also be a North/South dimension to areas of mutual interest.

There are lessons we can learn. On Monday last, I attended the prayer breakfast near Dundalk. Politicians from North and South gathered to pray, joined in their common Christianity. Senator Ross referred to platitudes, but one is not speaking in platitudes when echoing the late Senator Wilson's proclamation on the opening day of the Forum for Peace and Reconciliation that "love is enough". Where is our Christianity? We are overwhelmed by religion but there is no Christianity. Some people were fortunate to be present on Monday morning to hear Michael Cassidy talk about the experience of South Africa. Members could have learned something valuable because Mr. Cassidy made a very interesting statement when he said that we are overwhelmed by people talking while not enough people are listening. We must listen more and talk less.

I welcome this debate and thank the Tánaiste for his contribution. I wish to express my concerns about the present situation because this is a crucial time for Irish people. If there is a return to the killings and maimings that occurred before the ceasefire, it will be serious for everyone because it will have an increasing impact on the South and the North.

While fully condemning recent events, we must ask the IRA and Sinn Féin to stop and think of the consequences for society if there is an allout civil war in Ireland. We must ask what type of Ireland would result from such a conflict? It would be anything but a united Ireland. There would be deep divisions between its people. If we want a united Ireland, the people must be united. Further violence will only drive a wedge between the people. This should not be the objective. If Sinn Féin/IRA states that its objective is to bring a united Ireland into being, it is going the wrong way about doing so. That organisation is dividing Ireland by its tactics.

The people of Northern Ireland have suffered greatly and desire peace. I recently met some of them who were former supporters of the republican movement in Northern Ireland but are now bitter as a result of the resumption of violence. They point to a certain section within the IRA and state that its members did not suffer the consequences of violence in Northern Ireland heretofore. This element, whose influence within the IRA has increased, has decided that the people of Northern Ireland must again suffer the kind of outrages which occurred during the past 25 years. People in Northern Ireland have a deep fear of returning to that stage. They also feel greatly let down by certain sections of the IRA. It is no secret that the IRA is divided on how to approach the future. We must encourage those who believe that peace represents the way forward and ensure that their voices are heard, common sense prevails and there is a return to peace which will improve the quality of life of the people of Northern Ireland in particular.

We must also compliment the loyalist paramilitaries for maintaining the peace. It is difficult to congratulate someone on ensuring peace but the loyalist paramilitaries are to be complimented for resisting provocation. Constitutional politicians in Northern Ireland, the Republic and the UK must ensure that the talks progress rapidly. The constitutional Unionists must modify their language and approach to the overall situation. There were positive developments during the past week following discussions between John Hume and David Trimble. That is the way forward. John Hume and David Trimble, in particular, can play a strong role in developing the process and ensuring that the paramilitaries and those who want to kill, maim and destroy the Irish people are isolated.

Those of us involved in the peace process feel disappointed, frustrated and lost for words. Senator Maloney, among others, was involved in examining the humanity of the approach to the prisoners in the UK and ensuring a development in that regard. Those of us who contributed to a progression of the peace process find it hard to ask the IRA and Sinn Féin if they were genuine in their interest in the prisoners and in developing that process. What do they say now? Were they genuine when they spoke about a humanitarian approach to prisoners?

A large section of Sinn Féin was quite genuine in wishing to progress the process but, unfortunately, the hawks seem to be influential at present. I ask them to ensure society as we know it, North and South, is not destroyed.

I commend the Tánaiste for his statement. The ceasefire ended with the Canary Wharf bomb. It was a stupid decision to recommence the bombing — since then the IRA has set off bombs in Manchester causing about £500 million of damage and there were bombs in Lisburn which resulted in the unfortunate death of a soldier.

We have come through one of the worst summers in Northern Ireland any of us can remember. I refer specifically to the events which began in Drumcree, events which did immense damage to the Orange Order and to unionism in Northern Ireland. I was in Drumcree on the Sunday of the march and I was in Derry for the Apprentice Boys march the following month. The hatred and bigotry evident there among intelligent people was so strong that one could almost smell it. The damage done by the recommencement of the campaign of bombings and killings and the events at Drumcree have set the peace process back many years.

For 11 months the Drumcree residents' groups had sought a meeting with the Orange Order and the police to discuss the march through Drumcree. Neither the Orange Order nor the police met with the residents to try to defuse what would be a dangerous situation. I felt sick at seeing Mr. Gracie, the Grand Master of the Orange Lodge in Portadown sharing a platform with Billy Wright and Willie McRea. These people did not even take the time to try to defuse the situation by meeting with local residents' groups. It begs the question whether these people really want peace.

In northern Antrim in the past few weeks a 400 strong protest outside a church in Ballymena was carried out to stop people going into services. It is the worst form of protest. One finds it being used by Ian Paisley junior as a measure of easing the boycott of Protestant shops taking place in Northern Ireland. I hope such events will never happen in the South.

A married couple with two sons running a shop in Portglenone had a financial intake prior to Drumcree of about £1,400 a week until a campaign was started against them orchestrated by Sinn Féin thugs. Their takings are now down to less than £200 a week. The owner, who stated that he was a strong loyalist but had not attended Drumcree, said he had received telephone calls to say that they would be boycotted just because they were Protestants. The owner of the shop said he had always shopped with his Catholic neighbours and would continue to do so.

He made a statement to The Belfast Telegraph to the effect that he would fight the boycott and at 2 a.m. the following day bricks were thrown through the window of his house. The following day he received a telephone call expressing dislike with what he had said to the newspaper. This is the nature of life for people in the North. I recently read that Protestant businessmen in Northern Ireland are launching a campaign to boycott goods coming from certain companies in the South.

Death threats have been issued to the Ulster Democratic Party representatives Gary McMichael and David Adams and to the PUP representative Billy Hutchinson. It is important to establish trust in Northern Ireland and I welcome the efforts made this week to get the talks moving. Mr. George Mitchell is an excellent chairman but he cannot wait forever for substantive talks to start. It is important that Sinn Féin would be admitted to the talks. It is easy to say that they should not be present but we should look at what happened when they were excluded.

The IRA will always be on the verges of the political situation. When Diarmuid O'Neill was killed recently in London it was galling to hear republican sources accuse the British of shooting first and making up the facts later. They stated that he was unarmed. The late Gordon Wilson's daughter, Marie, was also unarmed as was Tim Parry the young boy killed in Warrington. The IRA cannot speak out of both sides of its mouth. Neither, unfortunately, can it be ignored.

The ten tonnes of explosives found in London show that it will not go away. It is not good enough for the Unionist politicians to say the IRA cannot be allowed into the talks. Since the ceasefire we have seen unbelievable fudges from Mr. Trimble and the British Government because they were under pressure from the DUP and the UK Unionists led by Robert McCartney. Nothing was done by these people to try to move the process forward and they must carry a lot of responsibility for what happened.

It is easy to condemn Gerry Adams and Martin McGuinness but I commend them for the work they have done in holding their people together in an unpleasant climate. Unfortunately, if we ignore them the bigger the chance we take with the so-called ceasefire. The IRA will always find people like Diarmuid O'Neill a soft touch. I have seen such young men in Donegal with no interest in politics who are sucked into the IRA, used and easily discarded, sometimes having served long terms in jail, having been injured by explosives or shot dead. They are a disposable asset to the IRA.

It is up to the politicians to give a lead. All we can do is ensure that everything possible is being done to keep the talks moving forward. I remember the message of Gordon Wilson — it is preferable to try to convince people that loving one's neighbour is better than trying to blast a way to a new society.

We should not use the term "Northern Ireland" rather we should use the term the "Six Counties" because County Donegal is part of northern Ireland. The problem lies in the Six Counties.

We must look for the reasons behind the violence on both sides of the divide in Northern Ireland. I have talked to ordinary farming and business people in the North. When Warrant Officer James Bradwell was killed we all sympathised with his family. However, the same amount of sympathy was not evident on the death of Michael McGoldrick, an innocent taxi driver. We knew who shot him. I wish his wife and her new son, Andrew Michael, well and I hope he grows up in a peaceful society.

I admired Senator Norris for being so straightforward. When power sharing was tried who broke it up? It was not the IRA. Who broke the law at Drumcree? It was not the IRA; it was the Orangemen. Sir Hugh Annesley was hung out to dry because there was no doubt he was instructed to hold the line but when the Unionists had been to Downing Street they informed their colleagues that the march would go ahead the next day at 5 p.m. Such injustice worries the Nationalists in the North.

Mr. Stalker was brought in to investigate an alleged shoot to kill policy and he said that he met with a conspiracy of silence. He was sacked by the British Government because it said there was a photograph of him with someone undesirable. It was later proved to be a false accusation and the British Government had to pay a six figure sum in damages to the man in question. We can all see that the Nationalists are being neglected. They are doing their best but someone must bring it home to David Trimble and company. We saw him at Drumcree and he has no intention of giving one inch. Unless there is compromise on all sides there cannot be peace. I appeal to the Unionists in Northern Ireland to be big enough to compromise, give way and share the cake with the Nationalists. In that way we would have permanent peace in Northern Ireland.

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