If it is agreeable, a Chathaoirligh, I would rather listen to the debate and comment later.
Beef Industry: Statements.
Is that agreed? Agreed.
I welcome this debate. Even though it meant adding an extra sitting day, I thank the Leader for supporting this debate because it will be well worthwhile. I welcome the Minister. He is having a difficult time and it is only right that both Houses should have their say on the matter.
The announcement on 20 March 1996 of the BSE problem in England reflected the lack of importance placed on agriculture in the UK and the total disregard for the agriculture industry of other EU countries, such as Ireland, whose agriculture industry, and the beef industry in particular, is of vital national interest. Bearing in mind that Ireland is Britain's fourth most important customer, the British displayed a complete disregard not only for this country but for the beef industry across the world. The British have objected to the slaughtering policy to which they had agreed and they think everybody should bail them out. It was Britain's policy which created the problem in the first instance.
Ireland adopted the right policy with the complete slaughter of herds and the banning of meat and bone meal from the food chain. Any farmer who does not observe these regulations deserves everything he or she gets. There have been some cases in the courts and I take no pleasure in a man being sent to jail but I support the action taken because whatever it takes we must protect this country's beef industry, which is worth approximately £1.7 billion and, above all, our clean green image.
Before I address the main argument, I wish to say a few words about the input costs of agricultural production. I do not have precise figures at present but I am prepared to state that input costs in Europe are completely out of line with those of our main competitors. The price of fertilisers, the main ingredients as far as agricultural input costs are concerned, increased by approximately 7 per cent over the past five years—an increase of between 30-35 per cent — while in some of Ireland's main competitor countries, such as the USA, Canada, New Zealand and Australia, farmers are purchasing fertiliser at about half the cost to the European farmer. This is reflected in the price we can accept for our produce.
The price of beef to the producer has dropped over the past 12 months by about 20p per pound. This time last year the price was about 102p per pound while the average price at present is in the region of 82p per pound. This poses the question: did the retailer hand on this reduction to the consumer? I have spoken to numerous butchers and supermarkets and the word from the housewife is that the price of beef has only reduced marginally on last year's price so that the consumer has not benefited from this huge drop of 20p per pound to the producer. The distribution and retail system has not forwarded this reduction to the consumer and someone is creaming off vast amounts of money which should belong to either the producer or the consumer. If there was a proper reduction in the price of beef, consumers would purchase it in greater amounts. In certain instances, prime cuts are selling at the same price as last year.
There is a great need for countries to introduce a substantial programme to promote the virtues of red meat. This should be carried out on a shared basis by the beef producing nations and the producers. Huge damage has been done to consumer confidence in the world's beef industry. I ask that the Minister initiate a worldwide programme whereby beef producers could emphasise the message that there is nothing to compare with beef. Much research has taken place in Ireland regarding the benefits of beef for women and children in particular. There is no substitute for beef. A recent report stated that a research programme in English universities discovered that children should be encouraged to eat beef when they reach ten months of age.
Before dealing with the main argument I wish to bring to the Minister's attention a report in last Saturday's Irish Independent by agriculture correspondent, Willie Dillon, relating to the recent veterinary conference. It provides serious reading, contains new material and perhaps the Minister will comment on its content:
Irish Veterinary Association president Diarmuid Dooge said that frozen and processed poultry products are coming in here with what the exporting countries would regard as "an acceptable level of salmonella".
He said Irish beef was being tarnished as dangerous and diseased while we imported junk to meet a shortfall in poultry supplies here.
Mr. Dooge, a food safety officer with Cork Corporation, said there had been 50 cases of salmonella food poisoning in the Southern Health Board region this summer compared with a normal number of around 20.
He revealed that tests on 250 imported poultry products had revealed three cases of salmonella and enteriditis. These were in breaded poultry products from two different British processors.
Speaking at the joint conference of the Irish Veterinary Association and the Irish Veterinary Union in Killarney, he said they would expect to find "zero" cases of the same disease in any tests on Irish poultry meat.
"If we got salmonella enteriditis in an Irish product, we would freak out. We would be obliged by law to inform the department and that flock would quickly get the chop."
I cannot understand how Ireland accepts the importation of diseased goods. Mr. Dooge made another awful statement when he said:
We and our colleagues in the medical field are beginning to see an increase in salmonella food poisoning in the human population. There are 200 deaths per year from salmonella enteriditis in Germany, the most civilised country in Europe.
On an annual basis, the Germans accept that 200 people will die from salmonella food poisoning. If one such death occurred in Ireland, the Departments of Agriculture, Food and Forestry and Health would be in grave trouble. I was horrified by this article. It is unbelievable that the importation of infected chickens into this country is being permitted when the officials of a health board have proven the existence of 50 cases of salmonella food poisoning.
I will deal with the main argument in the time available. For some time, sales of beef to the USSR and Russia were sourced mainly from intervention stock. Commercial sales took off in 1994 when the level of export refunds to Russia were increased thus making this trade economic.
It also coincided with the transformation of the Russian food market following the break-up of the USSR. This factor, together with the decline in Russian products following difficulties associated with privatisation of the agriculture sector, has resulted in a steady increase in the export of Irish beef to Russia. In 1995 some 100,000 tonnes were exported to Russia valued at about £325 million, making it the largest market for Irish beef outside the EU. It continues to be our most important third country market for beef this year.
The confirmation of the first BSE case in Ireland in 1989 caused difficulties for Irish beef sales to a number of third countries, including Russia. In autumn 1990 the USSR authorities raised concerns about accepting Irish intervention beef. The sale from intervention was only cleared following the visit of their chief veterinary officer to Ireland to inspect our health controls at first hand. In July 1993 the Russian authorities suspended imports of Irish beef because of BSE related concerns. The ban was lifted following the visit of a high level veterinary delegation to Ireland and the negotiation of a veterinary certificate which included certain specific animal health assurances required by the Russian authorities.
Therefore, BSE related concerns in Russia are not new. It is only since 1994 that a consistent commercial trade developed in that market. The most recent and serious BSE crisis commenced following the House of Commons statement on 20 March and we are aware of the subsequent wave of consumer concern and market closures which followed. However, the Russian market remained open because of the ongoing contacts with the Russian authorities and their satisfaction with the comprehensive series of controls in place in Ireland to ensure the safety and quality of Irish beef.
In addition, a permanent Russian veterinary official was assigned to Ireland to monitor the filling of contracts and the loading of ships for Russia. The presence of this officer facilitated the continuing trade to Russia at a time when difficulties were being experienced in a number of other markets. The Russian authorities have been updating themselves on the BSE problem on an ongoing basis and are relatively familiar with the control systems here.
During recent months, they began to express concern about the increase in BSE cases in Ireland. There have been 38 cases of BSE so far this year which is more than double the number of cases in 1995 and is higher than the level of cases in any year to date. During the visit of our trade delegation to Moscow in mid-September the Russian veterinary authorities raised the issue of the increasing level of cases in Ireland and a ban was threatened although not implemented at the time.
Despite reassurances, the issue was raised again on the margins of a veterinary conference in Malta two weeks ago. The Taoiseach contacted the President of Russia and the Tánaiste contacted the Russian foreign ministry and the Minister for Agriculture, Food and Forestry contacted his Russian counterpart. The Russian chief veterinary officer was invited to Ireland and following a review in Moscow it was decided that he would come here with a delegation of experts to study the matter at first hand.
There was no complacency on our part and the circumstances which arose last week were the culmination of events which took place over two months. The Minister monitored the situation on almost a daily basis but he saw no advantage in advertising to the world that we had BSE related difficulties with Russia or in talking about a ban.
The Russian Federation's chief veterinary officer and a delegation of veterinary experts visited Ireland from 7 to 12 October to review the controls in place and to study the disease in Ireland. The Russian team completed a comprehensive programme of visits covering beef plants, rendering plants, ports and laboratories. The Minister and the Taoiseach met the delegation during its stay. At the end of the week the Russian delegation put forward a Protocol which set out the basis for the continuation of the importation of beef from Ireland. The Protocol included the categorisation of counties and the exclusion of up to seven counties from the Russian market. They selected the counties and their selection was based on their study of the figures. It was linked, however, to the level of the disease in the counties in 1996.
The Russians made it clear that, if the Protocol were not agreed, an immediate ban would be recommended and implemented on all Irish beef with effect from 1 November 1996. That was a serious situation for the Minister to find himself in. Notwithstanding the threat of a ban, the proposed categorisation was vigorously opposed and it was strongly argued that there was no scientific justification for the measure. The meetings ended without resolution. Following high level consultation, negotiations resumed later that evening. The Russian side continued to insist on categorisation but reduced the number of excluded counties to three — Cork, Tipperary and Monaghan. I feel sorry for beef farmers in those counties. However, there will be no difference in cattle prices between these counties and any other county. I have heard the Opposition making that point.
If the Senator's county was ring fenced he would think otherwise.
That is the situation. There has been too much publicity about BSE.
There has been sabotage.
It has been heading in that direction; I do not like to use the word but that is what is happening. It has too high a profile. We do not have a serious problem. We know it arose because cattle were fed meat and bonemeal. We are not foolish. I am a farmer, three Members of the Opposition are farmers, the Minister is a farmer and a farmer is sitting beside me. I have never fed meat and bonemeal to my animals and neither did the majority of farmers. However, for the past ten years, meat and bonemeal were imported from the UK and farmers used it with the result that we are faced with the present problem. Our job now is to rectify the situation. We must support the Minister because he has done a good job. In The Irish Times today, the Russians said that, if it were not for the Minister, there would be a complete ban on the importation of our beef into Russia. The Minister has our full support and he should continue along present lines, irrespective of what others say. This is a difficult situation which must be controlled at all costs.
This is an important debate because beef is one of our major industries and it affects 100,000 farmers and many workers in the industry. Beef prices have fallen since live export refunds were removed last October. Senator D'Arcy made an important point when he said beef prices had fallen by 20p per pound. However, they have fallen further. Beef made 106p last October, not 102p, whereas it now only makes 82p per pound. He also said this has not been passed on to the consumer; I agree. It is the task of the Government to ensure that any price reductions are passed on to consumers and it has failed to do this. The Senator also said nothing compares with beef; I agree with that too.
Some years ago my club won a county championship and we had a celebratory dinner. We were deciding on a menu and were suggesting mutton and chicken. The chairman, who was the curate, said to forget about mutton and chicken as they were only mutton and chicken whereas beef was meat. That is how important beef is to this country.
We must promote it better and assure people it is safe; this is also up to the Government. Our first case of BSE was in 1989 and probably received too much publicity, as Senator D'Arcy said. The Department of Agriculture, Food and Forestry did not help at times. Its television advertisement featured a cow staggering; this did not project a good image.
I am sceptical of some BSE outbreaks. Farmers have to be compensated for any disease outbreaks. I had an outbreak of brucellosis on my farm and I understand the hardship disease can cause. We were not adequately compensated but it appears BSE compensation is attractive for some farmers. A case is now being investigated, as the Minister knows. One newspaper stated that cows had been imported from the North to infect a herd. In another recent case a farmer gave poitín to a cow so that she would stagger around.
I am a member of the farming community and every morning I listen to "Today with Pat Kenny", presented by a man earning in excess of £250,000. A regular part of his show is devoted to condemning farmers. One morning he mentioned those who use illegal substances but their numbers are minimal. I am completely against the use of those substances because it does not help farmers who are trying to make a living and is not good for consumer confidence in beef. The secretary of the ICMSA, Mr. Dónal Murphy, said recently that the courts are too lenient with people who are charged with the use of illegal substances. They should be made pay whatever fine is due because they are doing harm to Irish agriculture. More detective work should be done in this field to ensure consumer confidence.
There has been crisis after crisis in the beef industry since last October. The BSE ban imposed on Britain on 20 March affected Ireland and put great pressure on the Minister and the Government, who are not doing enough to ensure farmers will not suffer. The failure to make any political response led to the difficulties in the departure lounge of Dublin Airport last week. At a stroke of a pen one-third of the output of our biggest industry was branded as not acceptable in Russia. Beef from three counties was banned but while that is only three out of 26, they are three large counties. Factories will not accept cattle bought from another county but kept in one of those counties.
Since March there have been repeated calls for a determined political response from the Government but it has not happened. The Taoiseach and Tánaiste effectively abdicated their responsibility to rural Ireland. Despite beef being our biggest industry, they have sat out this spiralling crisis. The future of 100,000 farm families and 9,000 PAYE workers has been ignored. The handling of the BSE crisis has been left to the Minister, Deputy Yates; bad judgment and incompetence have marked his response.
That came from a non-farmer.
It was the Government's consistent failure to treat BSE as a serious political issue that led directly to Cork, Tipperary and Monaghan being sold out on 12 October. The Minister claimed markets would be reopened when operational Protocols were sorted out. He has only his own incompetence to blame if he found himself with a gun to his head and five minutes in which to sign a deal which ditched one-third of his biggest industry. Only colossal ineptitude would have made any negotiator throw in his hand on 12 October when faced with an ultimatum of a 1 November deadline. He could have played for time to make a better deal or at least one not which would not be as severe as this. It has opened the door for other countries to follow suit. The Examiner reports today that “Russia's copycats threaten beef sales”.
That story is not true.
It is in that paper.
It is a pity the Senator could not put it in his own words.
Senator Kiely without interruption.
I hope it is not true but it makes serious reading. The report states:
Two beef markets — worth more than £170 million per year to Ireland —are set to demand selective Russian-style beef export bans. Beef industry sources said Iran and Libya want a regional BSE ban as the price for readmitting Irish beef exports.
That is not true.
I hope it is not true because it is very disturbing.
If The Examiner wrote in similar terms about the Limerick Hurlers the Senator would not believe it.
Senator Rory Kiely without interruption.
I am disappointed that the Minister is not visiting third countries more often.
I visited Russia.
What about Libya?
I visited Libya.
What news did the Minister bring back? Has he visited Iran? What has made farmers most angry is that in the weeks preceding last weekend the Minister insisted that there were no problems with the Russian market. He glossed over the issue in response to questioning in the Dáil. He also denied there was a problem at the International Ploughing Championships in Carlow. However, we now know that not only is there a problem but it has been allowed to get out of control. The Minister's handling of the issue has been incompetent.
An extraordinary and unexplained feature of this fracas was the way in which the Minister caved in to a 1 November ultimatum on 11 October. He could and should have prolonged the talks to play for time. This would have given the Taoiseach and the Tánaiste and Minister for Foreign Affairs an opportunity to make a political approach. I take both to task for not getting more involved in this crisis.
Given the importance of relations between the EU and Russia it is inconceivable that the country that holds the Presidency of the EU cannot exercise leverage. It is clear that the ineptitude and inexperience of the Minister was the crucial factor in this unnecessary mess and it is very disappointing that it should have happened when we hold the Presidency.
The failure by the Government to respond to the call by Fianna Fáil for the establishment of a Cabinet subcommittee chaired by the Taoiseach to address the BSE crisis as a political priority has led to the present situation. If the political legwork had been done over the past six months the fate of the beef industry would not have ended up being decided on the steps of an aeroplane.
Is that the end of Deputy Bertie Ahern's speech? I heard it all at the weekend.
Senator Rory Kiely without interruption.
I hope the Senator will listen to my response.
I can anticipate the Senator's response. Another problem affecting farmers, especially beef farmers, is cash flow. They receive bank statements on overdrafts which include referral fees, etc. The Minister should consult with the Minister for Finance about eliminating such fees.
These fees were introduced eight years ago when Deputy Bertie Ahern was a Minister.
Prices were better then. We are in a crisis now.
Who was Minister then?
Senator Rory Kiely without interruption. Senator Farrelly will have the opportunity to contribute later.
I appeal to the Minister to ask the financial institutions to waive referral fees for beef farmers and those who find themselves in financial difficulties because of the BSE crisis and the collapse of the beef industry. It is also important to introduce subsidised loans, with an interest rate of, say, 5 per cent, to ensure that beef farmers can stay in business. At present interest rates are too high for some farmers. Perhaps the Minister will address this in his reply.
It is also important to expedite the payment of the special beef premiums to help the industry and farmers. The farmers' charter, which the Minister launched with such euphoria, stated it would be paid within two months of the retention date. However, that is not happening. Farmers who submitted applications last January for the special beef premium should have been paid by May or June but they have not received payment to date. Regardless of whether regulations would prevent it, the payment of that premium would help farmers. The Minister should ensure these payments are effected more promptly, and immediately if possible.
There was much criticism on the radio this morning of the protestations of farm leaders. However, they are entitled to protest as much as employers or employees if their incomes are being reduced. We all pity the workers in Packard Electric and much money has been invested by the IDA in multinationals and other operations. However, Mr. Pat Kenny is earning in excess of £250,000 of taxpayers' money and any funds invested in farming is money well spent because there are many spin off industries
The Senator has one minute remaining.
The Senator is entitled to injury time given all the interruptions.
The Senator is inviting interruption.
I met a contractor recently whose business is affected as a result of the poor incomes in farming. There are spin off benefits when farmers make money and earn a decent livelihood. However, that is not the case at present.
Among the most disturbing aspects of the Government's response to the crisis has been the cynical news management by the Minister. He has repeatedly outlined an imminent doomsday scenario as the months of negotiations continued. By setting the bottom line so low he has effectively sold out the interests of Irish farmers. The Minister's overriding concern is to avoid the possibility of a politically damaging defeat at any cost.
To serve this personal political strategy, he has perfected to a fine art the tactic of avoiding meaningful political engagement. He dumped the national interest and abdicated his responsibility rather than risk his own political capital. Farmers are the pawns in the Minister's game plan and as such they are seen as of little value, except in relation to what they can achieve for more important protagonists. I appeal to the Minister to devote more time to this matter and to treat it seriously.
I welcome the Minister and the opportunity to contribute to the debate. The current problems in the beef industry did not start with the BSE scare in the House of Commons on 20 March but some time previously. The problems will not be solved by blaming them on the BSE crisis.
Senators will recall that the IFA held a briefing session in Buswells Hotel on 7 February as a result of the 6p a pound fall in the price of beef. The organisation called it the cattle price income crisis. Senators will also recall that when CAP was reformed and the GATT agreement was put in place, it was anticipated that the price of beef would fall. A subsidy of approximately £200 for each male animal was introduced to compensate for this reduction. At that time, area aid was also introduced for cereal growers.
The beef industry, which is worth approximately £1.7 billion annually, was handled in a disgraceful manner by some of its largest players. Senators should refresh their memories by reading the beef tribunal report about what went on in the industry at that time. It was a national disgrace and would have been regarded as treason in any other country.
Some farmers also severely damaged the industry when they used the banned substance angel dust. It is clear that some of the beef plants and these farmers had an understanding regarding the use of that substance. It is no wonder that consumer confidence in beef which was already at a low ebb led to a falling off in consumption. Before the BSE scare in the House of Commons on 20 March, consumption of beef had fallen by 8 per cent across Europe and that figure is now higher than 20 per cent.
While it is impossible to do much about the reformed CAP and GATT in the short term, the Minister is doing a lot of good work to restore confidence in the beef industry and this is the route we have to take. He has tightened procedures in the beef plants and farmers who had been using angel dust are now finding it unprofitable to continue doing so. This is a positive development.
In 1989, when Senator O'Kennedy was Minister for Agriculture, he introduced what was known as the slaughter policy. In 1990 he also introduced a ban on meat and bone meal. It appeared from these measures that positive action was being taken in relation to the slaughter policy. It was thought that all animals from an infected herd were being slaughtered and removed from the food chain. I now understand that the only animal taken out was the infected animal. Can the Minister tell us what is the present position?
As regards meat and bone meal, again it is clear that the compounders continued to use it in rations despite being banned by the Minister in 1990. Were the introduction of the slaughter policy in 1989 and the ban on meat and bone meal in 1990 merely cosmetic moves? Has any action been taken on foot of these measures? Can the Minister clarify this because it is an important point?
The Minister has been criticised for the deal he made with Russia. However, before we criticise him, we should take a business-like look at the situation. What would have been the position of all our beef producers if the Russians had not taken up their contract of 300,000 cattle? It would have left us with a large number of cattle not taken up. The safety net intervention network would almost certainly have come into play and the most farmers would have received for their cattle would have been 78p per pound. That would not have been very satisfactory. However, because the Minister succeeded in offloading 300,000 head of cattle on to the Russian market, the three counties which have been left out will not see their prices fall.
While I deplore the fact that the Minister had to exclude Cork, Tipperary and Monaghan he had no option. He acted in the national interest and he deserves our congratulations. He did not go down the road of political play acting. He had no alternative and, being an honourable man, he did what was in the country's best interest.
The Minister and the IFA did an excellent job with the compensation farmers received for their beef. I know several factory workers who lost their jobs and small businessmen who lost a great amount because of the BSE scare. I do not think they received any compensation. The Minister and the IFA have done a good job in that regard.
Mr. Goodman announced at the ploughing championship in Carlow that the beef contract with Russia was in the bag. I wonder where he got that information. Over the past number of years some journalists and politicians have begun to work on the principle of a small boy throwing mud at a wall — very little sticks in the beginning but if he stays at it for long enough a great deal will stick. The mud being thrown at the Minister will not stick because he has gone down the right road.
During the beef tribunal, the Tánaiste and Leader of the Labour Party, Deputy Spring; Deputy Rabbitte of Democratic Left; and the former Deputy Mac Giolla of the Workers' Party refused to divulge where they got their information on the scams and downright fraud in the beef industry. I congratulate the three of them on not disclosing the sources of their information. They acted in the national interest because members of the public now know they can point out wrongdoing to some politicians without having their names broadcast around the country.
While it is unsatisfactory that Cork, Tipperary and Monaghan were excluded from the contract, the Minister did the best job he could.
We would all prefer if this debate were not taking place. We would also prefer if everything said today were said in the best interests of trying to rescue the beef industry from the present crisis. It is a difficult and delicate job to be both objective and honest at the same time, but I hope the contributions will be based on full disclosure of information and, on that basis, maximum consumer confidence. It is essential when dealing with consumers, either at home or abroad, to tell the full story at all times because they are the people on whom we rely.
This is an issue of credibility and confidence. I do not intend to spend much time discussing the Minister's credibility because, important though that may be for him and for the Government, the credibility of our industry is of much more importance. We must concentrate on the significant need to restore confidence in the industry.
The decision taken by the Minister at Dublin Airport, which, as I indicated in another forum, was an unprecedented and extraordinary place to conclude negotiations of such importance, was taken at the last minute and under pressure. I acknowledge those circumstances would not allow any Minister the scope, judgment and balance which he would want to apply to such a decision. That is why the Minister freely acknowledged and conceded there is, in his own words, no scientific basis for this decision. He has also said there was no statistical basis for it. Therefore, the Minister has been forced to justify and vindicate a conclusion which he acknowledges is not based on scientific or mathematical data. That is a very difficult position for any Minister and I sympathise with him for having to defend it. However, I am only concerned about the impact of this on consumer confidence around the world.
This decision does not concern regionalisation. Counties were selected which are a long way from each other — Cork is a long way from Monaghan. This unique breakdown of our island status is unprecedented and disastrous. It does not compare with the regionalisation precedent in France cited by the Minister. Brittany is a very big region in the north-west of France. Such regions are not comparable to our small counties.
Tipperary, one of the counties concerned, is surrounded by eight other counties. I am sure the Minister and his advisers are aware that marts in Roscrea, County Tipperary, take most of their product from Laois and Offaly with only a small proportion coming from Tipperary. On the other hand, the marts in Birr and Portumna, which are not in Tipperary, take most of their product from Tipperary. Those are some of the ridiculous anomalies which arise from this.
The Minister acknowledged there has been no incidence of BSE in south Tipperary. However, farmers in south Tipperary are being excluded from the Russian market unlike farmers in Limerick, where the incidence of BSE is at a much higher level — the Minister has the figures from his Department — than in south Tipperary where it does not exist. How can those anomalies be explained?
We want to restore confidence in the industry nationwide. I am worried that, as a consequence of this unprecedented decision, other countries will take the opportunity of demanding at least the same conditions in order to reassure their consumers and establish their political weight and muscle. Will the Minister confirm or deny that Iran, which accounts for £70 million of our exports, and Libya, which accounts for £100 million of our exports, are seeking the same conditions? Will the Minister tell them that Russian consumers are in a privileged, special position? He will not concede that — he does not accept it himself — to Libyan and Iranian consumers.
How can we go to those markets now? When the first outbreaks of BSE occurred, our competitors, as is the nature of competitive trade, spread the word about our incidence of BSE in 1989 and 1990. I went to Iran a number of times to meet my counterparts there and they came here. Our veterinary surgeons met their counterparts. However, a Minister never had a gun put to his head by any veterinary officer. I would never have accepted that. A veterinary officer has a legitimate but different role to play. He has to answer to his superiors, to whom he wants to be able to demonstrate that he forced the Irish Minister for Agriculture, Food and Forestry to do this or that. That is the reality of the situation.
This issue has been building up since 20 March and the infamous statement of the Secretary of State for Agriculture in the House of Commons. At the time we seemed not to recognise that the problem was not caused by an increased number of cases in Ireland but by the feeling that there was a link between CJD and BSE. No such link has been established by any information I have. Equally, it is important to say that there is no evidence of any transmissibility at all. There was no evidence of transmissibility of BSE from animal to human in the scientific data I saw when I was dealing with this issue as Minister for Agriculture. It is time we made a very clear distinction between the situation in Britain, where there was and is an outbreak, and Ireland, where we have had isolated cases.
The Minister for Agriculture, Food and Forestry and his Minister of State should be very careful. I assume the speech delivered by the Minister of State in this House last week was drafted with the authority of the Minister, unless things have changed greatly in the Department of Agriculture, Forestry and Food. The Minister of State said in this House that it must be recognised that Ireland has BSE. In the context of Britain having BSE he said it must be recognised that we have it too, without making the sharp distinction that Ireland has had 153 cases and has slaughtered over 21,000 animals, whereas Britain has had 165,000 cases. I am not aware of any slaughter policy being introduced in Britain. Why should the two situations be mentioned in the same breath? Why should a Minister here convey the impression, in a casual statement that was clearly not properly examined, that we both have BSE cases? There is no comparison, and never was.
I do not claim, as the Minister said on some television programme recently, to have done a great job. I do not boast that for myself. I only state as a fact that during the period when I dealt with this issue, I took responsibility on behalf of the Irish nation as a one-island entity, which has always been our strength. The Minister will be aware that this was recognised both by the International Epizootic Office in Paris, the Standing Veterinary Committee of the European Union, and the United States Department of Agriculture under white country status. I only claim to have vindicated that status as a nation, as an island country. That is what the Minister has underlined.
I acknowledge that the circumstances were more difficult for the current Minister than they were for me, because I did not face the need to respond to any such foolish statement, except on one similar occasion when Mrs. Edwina Currie made a statement on salmonella which was undermining the confidence of our poultry industry in Laois, Monaghan, Cavan and all around. I reacted immediately to that statement and demonstrated the difference to the markets, as the Minister will be aware, between the Irish poultry industry and the British poultry industry, with a very significant self imposed policy which we oversaw in the Department. We kept the markets open for Irish poultry when Britain was closed, and properly so. That is what the present Minister should have been doing.
I agree with my colleague, Senator D'Arcy, a fellow county man, who said that it is ridiculous that beef, which is full of health giving ingredients, is now becoming a matter of scare, contamination and worry. Poultry imports, as I know from my experience in dealing with the salmonella outbreak in Europe, represent about 25 per cent of the total poultry consumption of this country. This poultry is coming from salmonella infected countries. Why are we not being heard on that? This is a much more serious risk than any claim that the few cases of BSE we have are a risk to health when this claim is not held up by any scientific understanding. We should be pursuing the quality assurance and traceability aspects of this situation. I acknowledge that the Minister is facing a more difficult situation than I faced in my time, but I addressed what I had to face. I will say no more than that. I do not want to claim any further credit. Let the record speak for itself.
The Minister will have my full support. He will be aware of the fact that as Minister I introduced legislation to deal with clenbutherol. I wish RTÉ would stop using the euphemism "angel dust". It is not angel dust. It is poison dust, it is devil dust and I wish everyone would stop using that euphemism. It is acting in a diabolical fashion to poison our beef industry. When it first emerged, I introduced special legislation to increase the penalties for its use. The Minister, the Department and the DPP have my full support in all they do in that area.
We did the right thing when we introduced the slaughter policy. This Minister could equally have been the one to introduce it but he was not in office at the time. I introduced the slaughter policy, paying full market value at the top end of the market for BSE infected beef, no matter what the cost, which has now come to over £14 million for 153 cases. However, it has become clear that some rogues have abused a scheme that was introduced to protect the name and status of Irish beef. Any evidence the Minister or the DPP can get in such cases will have my vigorous support.
I see no basis for selecting certain counties and introducing a new concept there. If any one county was to be selected, it should not have been Tipperary, not because it is my home place, but because we are surrounded by seven or eight other counties. It would be difficult to put in place a policy for Tipperary, as if Tipperary was in the north west or the south east, like Wexford, the Minister's constituency. It is particularly difficult when the number of cases of BSE in Tipperary is exactly the same as in Wexford this year. Wexford had one case last year when Tipperary had none, you had five in the last two years when we had four. The cattle population of Tipperary, for what it is worth, is two and a half times the cattle population of Wexford. How can any Russians, looking at those figures, say that they selected Tipperary but found Wexford was fine? I do not find that credible. I do not want to see Wexford penalised as well but I do not find that decision credible.
I will support any action the Minister wants to take to restore the good name of Irish beef which was always at the very top of the market. I have said through my membership of the Joint Oireachtas Committee on Foreign Affairs, and I know the Chairman conveyed this to the Government, that those of us on that committee with some experience of this area are ready, if the Government wants our support, to go those markets with the Government's instruction or guidance, on an all party basis, to demonstrate that we want full, free and open discussion. This is a matter of very considerable importance for the Minister. It would also have been so for me. The Department of Agriculture, Food and Forestry produces thorny problems from time to time which are not necessarily of any Minister's making.
The status of our industry at this point is far more important than the status of any one Minister, whoever that Minister may be. The Minister has my support and good wishes in trying to solve the problem, but he will not have my support for any specious argument that suggests that someone looking at these figures found that these three counties jumped out at one when the level of incidence in those counties is lower, at least in my own county of Tipperary, than in some of the counties, like Wexford, which have a higher level of cases. That is the credibility that is under question at this time. I hope we do not have any further occasion on which to discuss this.
In today's edition of The Irish Times it is stated that we are being presented with a good agreement under pressure. The Russian veterinary inspector has said if we have other cases, they will reserve the right to extend the ban further or reject everything. The Minister and his best veterinary adviser could not say to anyone there will not be any other cases. If that is a record of what was concluded at Dublin airport, I worry even more.
We are talking about the Russian decision to ban beef importation from three counties. Some 25 per cent of current production is exported there. Should the Minister have made the decision to accept their proposals or close the Russian market? When the previous speaker was Minister, as he reminds us every time he speaks on the agriculture portfolio, the Iranian, Russian and Libyan markets were closed.
They were open.
They were closed at one point.
I want full disclosure of all facts.
The Senator is not Minister for Agriculture, Food and Forestry now. He has made his contribution. I would appreciate being given my time.
Distortion will not serve the cause.
They were closed——
And opened again.
——and at that time 100,000 tonnes of beef were put into intervention. As a result of decisions made later, that beef was made available to markets such as Russia. Is it any wonder as a result of what transpired at the beef tribunal that the Russians stated they will not take second class beef? In other words, they will not be fooled as they were before we had beef tribunal.
The ban on meat and bone meal in animal feed introduced in 1990 was never implemented. The veterinary inspectors from these countries tell us that if it had been implemented we would not have the current problem. What was the point of introducing a ban and not implementing it?
I instructed the Department to introduce that ban. The Minister will be aware of that.
The previous speaker talked about the great decision to introduce depopulation. The only animal of the depopulated herd which did not enter the food chain was the one diagnosed with BSE. Recently, the Minister made a decision that none of the depopulated herd would enter the food chain.
This matter is extremely serious. I look at the damage that has been done over the last number of days by politicians mainly those of the two Opposition parties. The Leader of the main Opposition party and his spokesperson on agriculture, food and forestry are engaging in national sabotage. There is no question but the more the issue is hyped up, the more our competitors gain from the statements and comments made.
Tell that to the Minister of State at the Department of Agriculture, Food and Forestry.
This problem must be much worse than we think. I remember a little over 20 years ago we cut the corn and sent it to the local co-operative. It was our main source of income. A receiver was appointed and the co-operative was in liquidation. We were faced with a situation where we could take 80p in the pound or get no money. That was the agreement reached after long negotiations. Is there anybody in this House who, faced with the same position as the Minister, would not take 90 per cent of the market? Those of us involved in business know what the Minister had to do when presented with the facts by the Russian veterinary authority. We hear much talk from these so-called politicians who pretend they know better than the Minister.
The farming leaders say there should have been intervention at the highest level. There was such intervention for a month because the Russians had not decided whether to take any more beef from Ireland. They do not need to worry about Irish beef as they can get supplies from other counties. Following these high level negotiations, it was agreed that the Russians would send over their veterinary inspectors. They spent a week visiting factories, abattoirs, farms and having discussions with the authorities and the politicians. They were given the authority to decide the issue on the basis of the information on the ground. That is how business is done and the Russians are treating this as business. I have no doubt the decision was not made lightly but no farmer or businessman I have met over the last four days said the Minister did not make the right decision.
Others will say that their county is excluded from the contract and we regret that. There is a duty on us to ensure there is a reduced incidence of BSE and that the rigours of the law will be brought to bear on people who are accused of introducing the disease into particular counties. If people distort the number of cases in these counties, they should be put out of business. People fiddle with the facts and distort the numbers for example, in the Monaghan and Tipperary cases and the one in Cork which has gone on for three or four years and has not been dealt with yet. People have told me that if red lead is injected into animals it will have the same effect as BSE. We are dealing with people at political level who are prepared to create national sabotage, hyping up the issue so that every day pages of information are sent to our competitors.
And now they know about red lead as well.
Senator Dardis has climbed on board with Deputy Cowen to make the situation worse than ever. I do not know how many animals Deputy Cowen has farmed or sold——
Political animals.
Surely he has as many as the Minister?
——but he has done harm to this industry in the past week by hyping up the situation. He has been aided and abetted by his Leader and supported by Senator Dardis.
Senator Dardis would know about cattle.
We were led to believe that further negotiations should have taken place in relation to this deal. It is important to point out that it takes three weeks after contracts have been signed for them to be filled. The closing of the market for any length of time and a decision not to continue with the particular market could have led to a sharp decrease in the money being paid to farmers for their animals.
It is important to note the Minister has secured approximately £70 million in compensation for last year's beef winter finishers and that for the first time heifer finishers received compensation. I hope next week's negotiations for compensation will be as successful for finishers on the grass for the past four months as they have been for the winter finishers. The animals which the farmers I represent bought over 12 months ago are losing more over the grass period than the winter finishers. I hope farmers will receive similar compensation for their heifer finishers.
BSE put the beef industry into a tailspin and resulted in the reduction in cattle prices. CAP reform was beginning to bite when prices in the factories were reduced by 6p or 7p last spring and before the famous speech in the House of Commons. CAP reform under Mr. MacSharry, aided and abetted by Fianna Fáil, was going to ensure that beef would be about 85p per pound when it was fully implemented. No one disagrees with those figures.
We must ensure beef farmers are kept in business with whatever support can be achieved from the Agriculture Ministers. We must ensure we have a sustained market and that there are farmers in the marts purchasing store cattle. If the Russian market was closed, we would spend a year or two negotiating to get it reopened; this happened before. If it was not opened, what would be the consequence for the remainder of this year and for the 25 per cent of the animals available to this market next year? I have no doubt we have a fight on our hands as regards other markets. However, if we do not hype the situation into something which can only be called sabotage, we can sell the fact that we have a low number of BSE cases; unfortunately, it is the second highest in Europe, but the number of cases is only 150. If responsibility is placed on the shoulders of those in the industry they might come to the fore in trying to wipe out this scourge. If the ban on meat and bone meal introduced in 1990 had been enforced, we might not be discussing this topic today.
I thank the Leader and the Government Whip for making time available for this important debate. It was appropriate that we were asked to come back a day early to discuss this vital national matter. I thank the Minister for attending and for listening to us. It is not my intention to be confrontational; I hope we can be constructive. We are dealing with the largest national industry, the livelihood of over 100,000 farmers, jobs in meat factories and a £2 billion industry. Because of that, we must adopt a unified national approach. That is not to say I do not have criticisms which I hope will be taken on board and acted on by the Minister.
On 20 March last we debated this matter. On that occasion it was not regarded as being important enough for the Minister or the Minister of State to be here. The debate was taken by the Minister of State at the Department of Social Welfare, Deputy Durkan. The other Ministers had more important things to do, like attending to by-elections. On that occasion Minister Durkan said that measures in place have protected the reputation of and market access for Irish beef which is accepted in 80 countries internationally. That may have been true on 20 March but it is certainly not true today.
Our response to this national crisis has been characterised by an initial complacency, by reaction and by playing catch up. I see little evidence of a strategic approach which will bring us out of this crisis and which will confirm to the world that our food, not only our beef, is safe, wholesome and can be consumed with confidence.
Last week on the Adjournment the Minister of State, Deputy Deenihan, made a statement which I heard the Minister repeat, that is, that there is BSE. As far as I recall, certainly in this House, that was the first time this was stated. This comes back to a point regularly made and which needs to be challenged, that is, that there is national sabotage involved when people point out the deficiencies in the beef industry. We help this delusion by saying the international press is watching, that it will seize on these matters, publish them internationally and this will damage our international reputation, and that we had better stay quiet and hope it will go away. We heap delusion upon delusion. Do we really believe something said in a meat factory in County Kildare or elsewhere is not known by our consumers, customers and competitors shortly afterwards whether it is publicised in the international media?
Last week the Minister of State, Deputy Deenihan, asked what useful purpose would have been served in advertising to the world that we had BSE related difficulties with Russia or in talking about trade restrictions when none actually existed. Russian difficulties had been reported in the press for several weeks before the matter came to a head. Throughout that period there was a conspiracy of silence to ensure the matter would not be debated. It is important for our greatest national industry that these matters are debated and that we can provide the assurances our customers require.
Last week the Minister of State, Deputy Deenihan, said that the age and labelling requirements which had been agreed by the Russians would be easy to meet. As a matter of interest, what are those age and labelling requirements? He also said that the restriction would be reviewed every three months. Are we to assume on the basis of the most recent statement, which we read about in this morning's newspapers, that the review will take place sooner than three months and that Ireland's BSE status has improved?
It is bizarre, irrespective of whether this agreement had to be made, that this matter was resolved in the departure lounge of Dublin Airport. I cannot imagine any major beef seller acting on a commercial contract doing a deal on that basis. Perhaps I am wrong, but it is bizarre and I wonder who was present.
I noticed that a Russian epidemiologist is staying in Ireland. Where are all our epidemiologists? Where is our science? What are we doing to establish scientifically the safety of Irish beef and reassure our customers?
I hope they have quality vodka.
I suspect the Minister will agree that perception in international markets is everything and if our customers perceive Irish beef is no good, no matter what we say we will have problems convincing them. One of the most disappointing aspects is the question of limited regionalisation, that is, that three counties must pay the price. How dare anybody say that this matter is not serious? I do not think the Minister would suggest it is not serious; of course it is serious, irrespective of whether it was right to adopt the present policy. It is serious for the farmers in the counties concerned and for the country.
While there may have been an inevitability about all this, I wonder whether all the cards were played. Did we not have more time? Was there not a window between the events of 12 October at Dublin Airport and 1 November during which more discussions could have taken place? It is my information — and the Minister can correct me if I am wrong — that the Mayor of Moscow was one of the people who was trying to keep the markets open in Moscow. It seems that not everybody on the Russian side wanted the markets closed. My information is to the contrary; there were people on the Russian side, conscious of employment in beef processing in Russia, who wanted to keep that market open.
This sets a disastrous precedent. We have been proud of Ireland's disease free status and moved at every opportunity to protect it at European level when it was threatened. This is a huge erosion of our claim of disease-free status. Was an earlier agreement reached that one Middle East customer would not accept beef from certain individual farms and not just individual counties?
There is no scientific justification for what has been done and I submit that there is very little statistical justification either. On whose figures were the Russians acting? It has been stated that the Russians made the decision themselves and that they used their own figures but they must have got them somewhere. From where did they get them? Try telling somebody in County Tipperary, County Cork or County Monaghan that this is not scientific justification. All they are confronted with is a fact based on whatever justification, or lack of justification which brings me back to the question "Was there not time?"
There are things which can be done and I put the proposals to the Minister. First, there must be scientific backup for the industry which can confirm that Irish beef is wholesome and disease free. There seems to be a dearth of scientific knowledge and epidemiology in respect of the disease, how it occurred and how it spread. We could say it has got to the point where it has gone beyond an agriculture issue and become a health issue.
It is worth recalling that it was British Secretary of State for Health who first raised this matter. Is there not a role for agencies, other than the Department of Agriculture, Food and Forestry, to confirm the credibility of the Irish industry and the health of Irish beef. Does the Department have the credibility to stand over the produce when international buyers come to our shores to give them the necessary reassurances?
The issue which arises from that is tracability. I know the Minister has proposals in that respect but, again, I wonder are we going far enough? It is now possible to tag animals electronically? I know of an Irish company which produces such tags. Can nothing be done to ensure the many movements of animals in Ireland are monitored and to trace problems to the farms from whence they arose? I know there is such a system in Northern Ireland and there seems to be a case for modelling our system on it. I am also aware that international buyers at a trade display earlier in Spain in the year were particularly impressed by the Northern Ireland system.
How do we create the atmosphere among international customers and consumers that our beef is good and safe? I accept it is good and safe and that Ireland has some of the best produce in the world but I sometimes wonder whether our green positive image of beef produced off grass is what we think people in Europe and elsewhere should believe rather than the reality. I commend the work being done by An Bord Bia in adverse circumstances in trying to find and promote markets for Irish beef but all its work will be for nothing unless the consumers are convinced that the produce is safe and healthy. We need an inspectorate independent of the Department of Agriculture, Food and Forestry which will incorporate representatives of the Department, Teagasc, the Department of Health, the veterinary profession, producers, processors, major retailers and consumers so that we can tell buyers that the produce is the best and is safe for consumption.
Last June when we debated the Bord Bia Bill I made a suggestion which the Minister of State, Deputy Deenihan, agreed to put to the Minister, that is, that there should be a national food forum. All interests in the industry should be brought together to devise a strategy because there is plenty of experience on how agricultural produce should be marketed. All those people can be of assistance to the Minister and he should avail of their advice and expertise. The Cabinet has a responsibility to support the Minister. There must be no equivocation on the part of any party in Government or, indeed, in Opposition in terms of ensuring that this vital national industry is secure and that those employed in it, and the farmers who rely on it, will be protected.
After 20 March we said the customer would rule and the consumer would be king. It has taken us a long time to come to that position. There was a great deal of resistance to having a consumer on the board of An Bord Bia until the Minister agreed to one consumer representative in June. That consumer representative is now a member of the board.
I am not sure there was a genuine acceptance that the intervention era had ended and that we had better produce the goods required by the markets, which must then be sold in a very competitive environment. We must show the world that our produce is of the highest quality and can be relied upon. Assurance is required from the veterinary, scientific and medical professions to confirm Ireland's health status otherwise An Bord Bia's work will be undermined. We must stop engaging in a rearguard defence based on reaction rather than adoption of a strategy.
The people who speak about the defects in the industry are not responsible for national sabotage. Those who use angel dust, repackage beef and sell it as something other than it is and tamper with tags and animals while protesting that TB is not being eradicated are responsible for national sabotage, not the people who highlight such matters.
An Leas-Chathaoirleach
I ask Senator Sherlock to bear in mind that the debate is due to conclude at 5.30 p.m. I will be calling on the Minister to reply at 5.10 p.m. and a number of other Members wish to contribute.
I propose to share time with Senator Reynolds.
An Leas-Chathaoirleach
Is that agreed? Agreed.
The beef industry is crucial to the economy and rural areas and it has taken a battering in recent years. It was still recovering from the hands-off approach of the last Fianna Fáil led Government, as evidenced by the beef tribunal, when the BSE crisis struck. Today, the industry must also contend with the activities of a minority of rogue operators whose greed has led them to use illegal growth promoters. I have heard little condemnation of such people by the spokesmen for the farming organisations who have seen fit to condemn the Minister. Fianna Fáil is aware that the Minister had no other short-term option but to agree to a ban on beef from three counties as an alternative to losing the entire trade with Russia, valued at approximately £300 million.
The difficulties with the Russian market are not new. The then USSR first raised concerns about BSE infected Irish beef in 1989. In July 1993, the Russian authorities suspended imports again because of BSE related concerns. That ban was lifted following the visit of a high level Russian veterinary delegation to Ireland. It is only since 1994 that a continual commercial trade was developed with the Russian beef market. It is only due to the efforts of the Minister and his Department that the Russian market remained open following the development of the latest BSE crisis in March. In recent months, when Russian concerns regarding the increasing level of BSE in Ireland were again raised, the Government did everything possible to maintain the trade with that market. I understand that the Taoiseach contacted the Russian President, the Tánaiste contacted the Russian Foreign Minister and the Minister for Agriculture, Food and Forestry contacted the Russian Minister for Agriculture.
During the period in question the Government, unlike its predecessor led by Fianna Fáil, was conscious of the need to maintain confidence in Irish beef and, therefore, refrained from broadcasting any developing difficulties in the Russian market. It was stated earlier that on 12 October the Minister for Agriculture, Food and Forestry was faced with a clear and unpalatable choice. I live in a rural area and I can state that people understand the problem. Their analysis of this situation is that the Minister did everything in his power. He was faced with a choice to either accept the Protocol put forward by the Russian authorities excluding the purchase of beef from Counties Cork, Tipperary and Monaghan or await the imposition of a total ban on 1 November. I represent farmers in one of the counties affected by this partial ban but I recognise that the Minister had no choice and he acted in the national interest. Had he adopted the wait and see attitude familiar from successive Fianna Fáil led Administrations, he would have been criminally negligent. The net result of such action or inaction would have been the exclusion of Irish producers from a market with an import requirement of almost 500,000 tonnes of beef.
I have already stated my belief that north and east County Cork should be excluded from the ban which should be limited to those areas in the west of the county where cases of BSE have been identified. It is extraordinary that these cases were identified in one area of west County Cork. However, there is now a greater focus and we will see the end of the use of this agent once and for all.
Did the Department estimate the value of the livestock involved?
I shall continue to make strong representations in this regard, which I hope the Minister will take on board. I am confident he will continue to negotiate strongly for a solution which is in the interests of the Irish beef industry.
All is not lost, however, because yesterday an individual paid £6,000 per acre for land in County Cork.
That was development land.
The Senator should put that in his pipe and smoke it. People are regaining confidence in their family butchers and any restrictions imposed by EU directives should be carefully considered. We must begin to regain that confidence.
I merely wish to make some pragmatic points regarding the Russian market and the BSE crisis. It is extraordinary when one considers the hysteria that has been drummed up. I understand the hysterical posturing of the Opposition parties in that they are attempting to take a shot at the Government.
The Senator's party provided a good example when in Opposition.
However, I cannot understand the logic behind such a reaction. I am aware that Senator Byrne lives in County Tipperary and has a particular difficulty with the Minister's decision but he had no choice. It is extremely important that the Russian market be kept open to Irish farmers and the beef industry but it is unfortunate that three counties have been affected by this ban.
Local IFA committees raised their voices in anger at the Minister's decision. However, it is difficult to comprehend the stand taken by the IFA at national level. That organisation is supposed to represent all Irish farmers. If the Minister did what the IFA wanted, the beef industry would have come to a halt and there would be no market. The Russian market is the largest available to Ireland at present and the IFA failed to state why it adopted this approach at national level. Why did the president of the IFA and its major players take this decision? They have been asked to provide reasons the Minister should not have agreed to the short-term banning of three counties. If there were no markets open to the beef industry, the country would be in dire straits — economically and in other ways — and farmers would protest.
The Minister must be congratulated for the difficult decision he made. I believe Deputy Yates is the best Minister for Agriculture, Food and Forestry the country has had for many years. I am proud he is a member of my party and I have the utmost confidence that he had the ability, energy and capability to solve the problems faced by the beef and agriculture industries.
We must try to restore consumer confidence. An Bord Bia has done great work over the last few months in this regard with the support of the Minister and his Department. However, scare-mongering tactics have been employed with regard to BSE and CJD. It has not been proved that BSE will affect humans. It is like saying that one should not cross the street in case one might be knocked down by a bus.
Political parties, especially those in Opposition, must work in the national interest. It is fine to raise political issues and make political points but when the national interest depends on what individuals may say, they must consider the consequences.
We must try to restore consumer confidence in Europe. The third country markets are important for us and, with the co-operation of the Russians and the farming communities in the counties affected, I have no doubt this ban will be lifted over the next few months. What the Minister has built into the deal with the Russians will assist in achieving that.
I have a sense of déja vu about this debate. I have been an Independent Member of this House for ten years. I do not share the view of some of my Independent colleagues that being Independent puts one on a high moral ground. I congratulate people in political parties on their work. However, I have witnessed the craw thumping of Members on the Government benches when they were in Opposition. I heard it when the then EU Commissioner, Ray MacSharry, tried to reform CAP and when the farmers marched against the former Taoiseach, Charles Haughey. The country has been well served in the past by Ministers responsible for agriculture and it is well served by the present Minister. I wish those in Opposition could see that and remember it when in Government.
Senator Reynolds's point about the Opposition would be well remembered by every political party. In the ten years since becoming a Member of this House I have not heard a balanced debate on agriculture. I defended Ray MacSharry's proposals on CAP and I was opposed. Each Minister responsible for agriculture in the last ten years worked to the best of his ability to get the best deal for Irish agriculture. As with any negotiator, they could never get a deal to satisfy everyone. It is unfair to personalise the attacks on Ministers.
Last week the Minister for Agriculture, Food and Forestry had a simple choice. He was dealing with a market worth about £0.5 billion a year and certain conditions were imposed by those placing the order. The Minister had a simple alternative — to keep selling £0.5 billion worth of beef or not. There could only have been one answer.
I have sympathy for the farmers in the three counties involved but I also have sympathy for consumers. Agriculture is the sector in which we have the highest level of public spending. I make this point repeatedly to the farmers' leaders although they do not like me doing so. With an expenditure of £2.2 billion in agriculture every year, it takes up more money than education and almost as much as social welfare.
Legislation dealing with abbatoirs was passed by this House in 1988. I agree with Senator Sherlock that there has been a growth in confidence in local butchers. Unfortunately, the restrictions imposed under the abbatoirs Act have stopped consumer development at that level. I do not know where that money went to.
I have heard Members on all sides talk about market forces over the past ten years. Irish beef prices are approximately twice those of world prices. I have sympathy for all Irish farmers because such a price difference will not continue. In ten years time Irish beef prices will not be double world market prices. I have not heard any farmers' leaders make that point. However, I have heard successive Ministers with responsibility for agriculture make it. We put £2 billion a year into an industry which will collapse if farmers cannot plan their output based on a five or ten year strategy and not on the basis of last year's prices. The industry will collapse if farmers cannot introduce efficiencies. They cannot do so when their output is governed by quotas and when they are dependent on various grants.
I do not wish to criticise the work of farmers. Like anyone else, they work to the brief they have at any given time. If I were a farmer I would be considering what my entitlements might be, what I could get at the mart and what I could get if I export. The farmers are being taken for a ride. Farmers borrow money each spring to buy weanlings or sucklers. They condition them for six or seven months and sell them. If they buy them for 70p a pound and sell them for 101p a pound they have to borrow enough to buy at 70p. If, however, they were buying at 40p and selling at 71p they would be borrowing less, have cheaper costs and make more profit. That is a simple sum.
We must move in that direction. The Minister should set a time scale to do so for the good of Irish agriculture and give farmers confidence in the good job they do. They must be allowed to plan for the inevitable time when Irish beef prices will match world prices. At present Irish beef sells for about 90p a pound and the world market price is 45p or 50p a pound. That will not continue. There are industries working on the basis of that price but I do not know how they do so. There is something seriously wrong when a person buying on behalf of a meat company in Ireland cannot match the prices being offered by a buyer from Egypt who has to transport the meat halfway across the world. It is a serious reflection on the industry that the Kerry group got out of the red meat sector last year.
My shallow knowledge of the industry would indicate that there seems to be more of a monopoly in operation now than before the beef tribunal. The industry seems to be in the control of one person. The farmers will be made fools of once again. They are led to believe that a grant or subsidy is more important than their job. If Irish agriculture collapses, it will not be because of BSE but because of global market forces. If we do not prepare our farmers for that, we will pay a bigger price in the long term. We should move towards having Irish prices in line with world market prices in a manner which is supportive of farmers and does not make fools of them.
Since there was a good price for potatoes this year, they will be grown in half the country next year. It is predictable. I gurantee there will be a ten per cent increase in land tilled for corn next year because this was a good year for it. It is short term planning. Areas such as agriculture and fisheries are subject to weather and other conditions.
Beef produced by Irish farmers is the best in the world to my experience. I have never tasted better than Irish beef. On the other hand, I have spoken to vets who have worked in factories and they have shown me hormone implants taken from carcases. The court decisions of the last three weeks will do more for consumer confidence in the beef industry and farmers than the £1 billion we have spent on TB testing.
The Minister came into this House last year during his problematic and high profile row with the vets. I do not know who won or lost but I concede the matter has settled down. I criticised the Minister then because I did not agree with the manner in which he dealt with the problem. I have much confidence in Irish vets who are doing a superb job. However, until every single movement of cattle is monitored, we will not control diseases, a point made by Senator Dardis. This cannot be done if a vet must fill in 13 different forms in reporting a reactor and then wear a suit of mail so he will not be attacked by the herd owner. We must fund this area to ensure confidence.
The Minister will be vindicated as this was the only decision he could have made. He had no choice. He could have been cuter and announced the loss of the Russian market, waited for the row and then announced he had managed to secure exports from 23 counties. A halo would have then been put over his head. Maybe that is what he should do the next time. If that is what it takes to sell a good deal, that is what must be done.
Is the Senator seeking a position as public relations officer? If he is, he is doing a good job.
I am glad to hear Senator O'Toole will not make any personal attacks on Ministers.
Is the Senator sharing his time? Many people wish to contribute.
I wish to complain about the system in this House of time constraints and possession moving from one side to the other. Some people cannot contribute.
It is easy to blame the Whips.
It is not the fault of the present Whips. I am glad this matter will be examined. There will be three five minute slots to include Senator Enright and Senator Cotter.
The same time as the Senator of Russia.
I congratulate the Minister for Agriculture on saving the Russian market. Everything depends on one's point of view. If a certain political party were in power and the same occurred, their Minister would be saving the Russian market.
The problems facing the beef industry cannot be underestimated. In a time of family crisis, the family should always stick together. Unfortunately, the lack of national loyalty and the hungry head of politics has reared again. It is unfortunate that this is seen as an opportunity to put down, walk on, slur and blackguard the Minister. This current crisis has built up over the years. BSE has not appeared in the last six months but has been a growing problem in the UK and, unfortunately, Ireland has suffered the effects.
A journalist from The Irish Times said on the one o'clock news that he was in Russia recently and met the chief veterinary inspector. That journalist does not wish to give false information. He is not a public relations person for the Minister but a recognised and respected journalist. He met the Russian chief veterinary inspector who had accurate information on Ireland and told him that the Russians were to close the Irish market some months ago.
The Minister denied it.
I did not.
Acting Chairman
No interruptions, please.
I wish to put on the record what was said on the one o'clock news, not what the Minister said. Professor Sheehy, a highly respected individual in agriculture, said unhesitatingly that the Minister saved the Russian market. That gives the lie to the slurs made against the Minister.
I thank Senator Belton for sharing his time with me. We are debating the major industry in Ireland. We must ensure consumers are happy with the product they buy, otherwise we will have problems. Our beef and milk products are the best in the world. That is something we must get across to people because there has been a decline in the quality of our marketing. An Bord Bia have had problems in marketing our products because of use of illegal hormones and brucellosis, for example. Overall, we have an excellent product to market and the sooner it is marketed the better.
We have been fortunate in having Deputy Yates as Minister for Agriculture, Food and Forestry during the furore arising from the sale of beef to Russia. His handling of this affair has been skilled. He understands the issue and had the ability to negotiate a good deal for farmers. Senator Belton is correct in quoting what Professor Sheehy said on the radio. If the Russian market had been lost, it would have been a catastrophe for the beef market because there would have been a glut as cattle are now coming off grass. I attended a number of marts in the midlands yesterday. There was a good trade for cattle yesterday, which would not have been the case if we had lost the Russian market. Russia buys approximately 400,000 tonnes of beef per year and Ireland is probably the main supplier with 120,000 tonnes. This market is worth £300 million per year to Ireland and if we had lost that it would have been a catastrophe, as Professor Sheehy rightly said, because we would have lost not only the Russian market but all other markets. Mr. Séamus Martin, the Russian correspondent of The Irish Times, reported that Mr. Avilov, the chief Russian veterinary inspector who met the Minister last week, said Russia had been considering a total ban on Irish beef.
We must look back over what has taken place, particularly during the beef tribunal. This is not a political point but for its own sake and that of the industry Fianna Fáil would be better not to cause a furore. When it had the opportunity it did not lead by example, as can be seen from the record.
The courts have been successful in bringing convictions. It is high time many more were charged and I am pleased with the Supreme Court decision. The Department of Health and the Minister should seriously consider imposing a mandatory sentence on anyone found using illegal growth promoters. The farming organisations should expel such people and name them publicly.
I offer my sympathy to farmers, particularly those in the three counties concerned. I do not include the IFA in that because that body does not need sympathy but lessons in economics and marketing. In particular, it should look at the issue from the buyer's point of view. I also offer my sympathy to the Minister who was caught in a position where no one would want to be but has weathered the storm well.
The nation should have learned the lesson last week that one can have a product for sale but there is no guarantee anyone will want to buy it, particularly if there is a question mark over it. To listen to the IFA one would get the impression that if one has a product for sale one can compel people to buy it. Its performance last week was incredible and defied logic. Its spokespersons should have stood back and listened to what they were saying.
Can we compel people in Russia to buy our beef? That is obviously a rhetorical question but other questions should be raised. Why is BSE on the increase this year? We put a strict regime in place in 1988 or 1989 to control BSE but the cows that are now stricken with the disease were not born at that stage. Does anyone in Ireland know anything about BSE? Are we waiting for information from sources outside the country——
Like Russia?
——rather than doing sensible research into diseases like this? We keep saying beef is our most important export but we are not taking great care of it. The amount of money which successive Governments have put into research and development, research in particular, is not adequate. We invest considerable money in developing the progeny of cattle but not enough resources are devoted to animal health. Would we have fed offal to cattle if we had discovered it was bad for them and would produce this disease?
A country which continues to claim that beef is more important to it than to any of our EU partners should invest heavily to protect that market. Will the Minister state what investment we currently make in animal health? This disease is interfering with our markets and destroying a large proportion of our national output. Is the IFA putting money into such empirical research, which should be happening all the time? That association has substantial and lucrative investments in Spain; has it made investments in Ireland which are designed to protect the welfare of a market it was screaming about in such ludicrous terms last week? I assume it has not and, if it is serious, it should cash in its investments in Spain and elsewhere and reinvest some money at home to protect the good name of the product which is so important to us. Let us take a partnership approach to the research required to protect the product. The IFA should come to terms with that because we have much work to do.
The industry finds it difficult to get the resources necessary for research because it has low added value. Governments down the years who have failed to put enough money into the area must take the blame for that. We are proud of the beef we produce and we should invest in research. I am glad I had the opportunity to make these points.
I wish to share my time with Senator Kelleher and Senator O'Brien.
Acting Chairman
Is that agreed? Agreed.
We are the three "reactors", representing counties Cork, Tipperary and Monaghan. I agree with Senator Belton that the arrangement for this important debate is not satisfactory.
I was speaking generally
There is not enough time to do justice to the issue or the jobs involved both on the farm and the factory floor. We should not have to scrounge for time. We often spend longer debating minor issues and this debate should have continued until at least 7.30 p.m.
This is a serious matter. The Minister for Agriculture, Food and Forestry made a bad deal on bad advice but I am not here to knock him, rather to tell him not to take that advice in future. An entire industry is at stake and I am surprised that he, a man from farming stock, took that advice because our other markets are endangered through the signing of this agreement with Russia. We may lose more than we will gain because our image has been severely damaged by the suggestion that we have a major problem.
I cannot understand the cherry-picking involved in this deal but perhaps the Minister will explain it. Cork is one of the biggest cattle producing counties in Ireland. The Department looks on my county as two separate units. There was no outbreak in one of them. Does it know what is happening?
It is time that the Government and farmers' organisations asked if there has been value for money in the past 40 years, whether it be in respect of TB and brucellosis eradication or the handling of BSE. I believe we are getting very bad value. There has been much bungling. The approach to the banning of meat and bone meal is an example, where the rules introduced by Senator O'Kennedy when he was Minister for Agriculture and Food were not implemented.
Officials were partly responsible for the fall of the last Government. What officials did not do their duty in these instances and why are they still employed by the Minister's Department? A similar situation arose in 1982 when the then Minister for Agriculture was provided with the wrong figures as he attempted to fight for a quota for farmers. The official is still in his job. He was not reprimanded or demoted while the small farmers were left with only a few shillings to produce milk because of his inaction and carelessness. It is time there was accountability in the Civil Service, as there is with politicians. The way we have conducted our business over the past 30 to 40 years under successive Governments is a national scandal. There is blunder after blunder, yet nobody is responsible.
We have had to deal with reams of red tapes over the years. We cannot gain confidence for our beef at home, never mind abroad. Teagasc, An Bord Bia and the Minister's Department have different policies on the promotion of beef. Similarly, legislation on abattoirs has not been implemented in most counties because the Department fell down on the job. We visited the Department last year to discuss the situation but the officials did not know what we were talking about. It cost south County Tipperary £35,000 to subsidise the implementation of the scheme on abattoirs. It has only been implemented in a few counties. Family butchers had to update their premises and shops at enormous expense, yet they are now put at a disadvantage because they cannot sell their beef as it can be purchased at cheaper prices in adjoining counties.
On the question of confidence, it was disclosed at a veterinary conference in Kilkenny that people are eating meat that has been slaughtered without any veterinary supervision. We must get our own house in order. The Minister's Department has fallen down miserably. A senior reporter from my county will visit Russia before the Minister to show that the system is not as bad as it appears and that the deal was a bad mistake. The Russians should be the last people to talk about quality. They nearly poisoned the world with radiation and deceived people about the extent of the problem.
I appeal to the Taoiseach and the Tánaiste and Minister for Foreign Affairs to use their influence and common sense. They should forget about the spin doctors. They are experienced politicians and they should be attempting to save our image in the national interest, which has been badly damaged by this debacle.
We have produced 15 million cattle in the past eight years, yet there have been only 150 outbreaks of BSE. The Minister calls this a crisis, but it is not by comparison with the UK. If we have a crisis it is because the Minister's Department fell down on the banning of meat and bonemeal. There are too many chiefs and not enough Indians. Nobody cares in this country anymore about carrying out their duties with a conscience. Perhaps we would not have had BSE if there had been proper implementation of the regulations introduced by Senator O'Kennedy when he was Minister for Agriculture and Food.
I understand the Minister's Department has advertised for more officials. We would have less problems with BSE, brucellosis and TB if those already working there did their duty. We are getting bad value for money. I hope the Minister will provide abattoirs with funding this year because the legislation in this area has not been implemented. The Department has failed miserably on this. We talk about new markets, yet we cannot even conduct our business at home.
I am not here to pay homage to the Minister, unlike some of my colleagues on the other side of the House. There has been no response to the BSE crisis since it was announced in the House of Commons on 20 March 1996. After numerous debates over the past few months, the Minister and officials from his Department have done very little in terms of travelling abroad to ensure that our markets are maintained.
With regard to the Russian deal, the Minister denied for weeks that there was a problem. Despite rumours, he sent only his junior Minister to Russia, who later confirmed to the House that we have a BSE crisis. What plan of action had the Minister to ensure that the Russian deal would have been confirmed, with the 26 counties supplying the market?
It was announced that the Minister saved the Russian market worth £300 million, while a veterinary officer from Russia praised the Minister for ensuring the market was kept open. On what scientific data, be it statistical, epidemiological or otherwise, did he provide figures to the Russian officials to designate Counties Cork, Tipperary and Monaghan as the three counties that would cause problems for Russian consumers? Singling out these counties in this way does not stand up to srutiny, especially Counties Cork and Tipperary.
Will the Minister confirm announcements to the effect that Saudi Arabia, Iran and Libya may in the near future demand a deal equivalent to the Russians, or even more stringent, debarring more counties from the present scheme which supplies the Russian market? If so, he has jeopardised the island status of the country, which we fought for years to protect, in addition to our efforts to assure customers at home and abroad that the beef industry had the proper regulations in place and that it was a safe product. The Minister already undermined this by the agreement he signed with Russia at Dublin Airport.
While the Minister's PR machine may still be intact, farmers are not impressed with his handling of this crisis. While he stood in Carlow for photographs with the beefburgers, he did nothing to travel abroad, or to get the Taoiseach or Tánaiste and Minister for Foreign Affairs to do so, to ensure that the proper information is disseminated to foreign markets. He must now do so, because, unfortunately, they are reliant on damaging headlines, not alone in the Irish press but also by our competitors internationally.
It is time that the farming community and farm leaders became consumer conscious and pointed out to their members that the use of illegal substances is unacceptable and detrimental to the economy. We have been too soft in this area. Laws and regulations have been passed but we have not implemented them. I hope that over the next few months the few rogue farmers will be brought to justice to ensure that we can fully guarantee that our commodity is safe. However, to date, I am disappointed with the Minister's response, even though he looks good in photographs from Carlow.
Last Tuesday will go down as one of the darkest days for the beef industry following the announcement of the Russian ban on three major beef producing counties. People in my area, County Monaghan, cannot believe that the Government and the Minister accepted a deal which repartitions the country and classifies only some beef as pure quality produce. It is heartbreaking and unbelievable for a county which has worked so hard over the years in building up the industry and becoming one of the top food producing regions in the country and Europe. It is outrageous and unacceptable that the Minister has agreed to this deal when there is no basis, scientific or otherwise, to justify a ban on any Irish beef, and particularly in relation to produce from Counties Monaghan, Cork and Tipperary.
Irish agriculture has had a dreadful time since the BSE problem came to a head in March. Cattle prices have collapsed and farmers have experienced losses of up to £200 an animal. However, this latest development is the biggest bombshell to hit the farming community. The Government has allowed a third country to create internal barriers in Ireland which will stop certain farmers trading their beef fairly in the international market. The concession by the Minister that beef from certain parts of the country is unsafe plays into the hands of traders and competitors in the international marketplace. It creates a dangerous precedent for future negotiations.
I am outraged that anyone would suggest that the quality of beef from County Monaghan should be questioned or rated as inferior. Food in County Monaghan is produced in a natural, clean, green environment and it is of the highest quality and excellence. The Minister has made a huge mistake by agreeing to this deal and it must be immediately reversed. I call on the Taoiseach to travel to Russia and renegotiate this deal as a matter of urgency. Farmers from Counties Monaghan, Cork and Tipperary cannot be sacrificed and their souls must not be sold, as has happened in this botched deal.
The Taoiseach will have a strong case to make if he travels to Russia. Ireland has the toughest and most effective controls worldwide to which farmers have strictly adhered regarding the containment of BSE. The Taoiseach must act swiftly if permanent damage is to be avoided. Foreign competitors will use the ban to undermine international confidence in the industry and Irish consumers will be concerned. I wish the Minister well in his negotiations in the days and months ahead.
I thank the Minister for allowing Members to use some of his time. As a resident of one of the counties earmarked by the Russian authorities for exclusion from its market, I am glad to have an opportunity to participate in the debate.
It is evident that a serious problem exists but the regionalisation of the country is an unhappy precedent to set. The possibility of other countries seeking to do as Russia has done may eventually turn farmer against farmer. The prospect of an extension of the Russian ban to other counties should not be overlooked.
There is little point in the exchanging of political blows which has taken place in the Oireachtas and elsewhere recently. I accept the Minister's assertion that he had no option but to sign the agreement and that there is no scientific basis for the Russian view that meat from the three counties should be excluded. However, this is beside the point. For whatever reasons, Russia has decided not to import beef from the three counties. The moratorium begins on 1 November and it will be renewed after a three month period. A Russian veterinary officer will remain in Ireland to continue the checking process. We should consider this aspect. How we can ensure that the partial ban will be lifted in three months? In effect, we have three months in which to get our house in order.
I welcome the stiff penalties handed down by the court to a farmer found guilty of importing animals with BSE into the herd for compensation purposes. Such acts are treason and the message must be put across to farmers by the Minister, the Department of Agriculture, Food and Forestry and the farming representative organisations that farmers must be on their guard against new cases of BSE. However, we should not be pessimistic about the ban. It is based on the incidence of BSE in a two month period and not the year as a whole. If we can get our act together over the next three months, it should be possible to reverse the ban.
Members of the House must be honest with farmers and the public. While we may not like the action taken by Russia, there was little the Minister could do about it. As far as beef is concerned, it is a buyers' market and if the Russians wish to buy their beef elsewhere, they can do so. It has been clear in recent months that Fianna Fáil is attempting to make political capital from this issue. It is in Opposition and this is understandable. However, I welcome its, and the IFA's, acceptance, that a national herd management scheme is required. For too long, the food industry in Ireland, and probably in the EU, has been producer led. People do not have to eat beef if they do not wish. There are countless alternative products available if they choose. I wish to share my time with Senator Magner.
What is the position regarding time?
Acting Chairman
The Minister has just 12 minutes to reply. He will have less time if Senator Magner contributes. Is that agreed?
That is not fair because time on this side was limited.
Acting Chairman
The Minister should have started his reply at 5.10 p.m.
What time will the debate conclude?
Senator Cashin said he wanted to share his time with Senator Magner.
We wish to share five minutes.
Acting Chairman
The Minister should have started his reply at 5.10 p.m. but he agreed to give Senators some of his time and that he would have ten minutes. Senator Magner has just two minutes.
If they had ten minutes extra, the debate would not be over.
Senator Kiely has just arrived in the Chamber but following his intervention I will forego my time.
I listened carefully to the debate and some of the contributions were wide of the mark. However, I am glad to have this opportunity to discuss the recent events in the Russian market. I am also glad that, given the initial hysterical reaction last week, the debate is more rational. Regardless of whether people accept it, the fact is that if I had not accepted this Protocol, Ireland could not have sold any beef from 1 November to Russia. There would be a total dependence on safety net intervention at a time when, on the basis of last week's figures, 33,000 steers are being slaughtered.
This decision could be changed in the morning. I could rip up the Protocol and say we will live with the ban instead. However, nobody is sensibly suggesting that this is how the matter should be pursued. Anybody who seriously thinks that any stone was left unturned since last May when I travelled to Russia is trying to mislead the public or will not accept the facts. Everyone would agree that this is about consumer confidence. I am happy to tell the full story which Senator O'Kennedy requested. There have been times this year when I was shocked at some of the things I found out in the Department. I want to put my record in terms of eradicating BSE to the reassurance of the consumer against any former Minister who has had to deal with this since 1989.
I found it totally unacceptable that the meat from a depopulated herd went for human consumption. I found that inexplicable and at first I could not believe it. I have carried out a study on why we are having such difficulties with the Russians and so many others. Two years ago there were 19 cases of BSE; last year we had 16 and so far this year we have had 38 and we will have more before the year is out. The figures will more than double and maybe treble.
We do have a problem. Out of 7 million animals the number is still at a very low, sporadic level. The public is inclined to ask where did these numbers come from? The Russians and everyone else have asked the same. I have looked at cases as recently as last Saturday where neither the mother of the infected cow nor the cow itself ever moved off the farm. They were home bred and were not traded. The problem was entirely due to the feed. These facts come from an epidemiologist's study. This year I have put regulations in place whereby a licence to buy or sell meat and bone meal is required. I am also putting a task force in place to ensure vigilance in the implementation of this measure. I do not believe the numbers of infected animals will increase dramatically next year. However, if the numbers rocket, if they were to double, I could not guarantee any market. It is nothing to do with politics. If Russian vodka coming into Ireland was declared unsafe in a chief veterinary report would any Government override that? Let us have some reality in this debate.
That is not a close analogy.
It is a very close analogy.
What about the numbers in Wexford?
The Senator is misleading farmers in his county and is driving them hysterical.
What about the Wexford numbers?
Acting Chairman
The Minister without interruption.
With respect, I have listened to a lot of nonsense from the far side of the House for two and a quarter hours. Farmers are interested in money in their pockets. I have provided a basis to ensure that farmers in every province get the same price for cattle this week as they got last week. That is the basis of my pragmatic decision.
I was shocked to read in this morning's edition of The Cork Examiner— and this is part of a series of reports in that paper — where they have reported BSE cases in Cork as if they were murder cases; they got page one treatment throughout the summer. Do not be under any illusions: attachés in every embassy in this country send back clippings to their home countries and provide domestic media coverage. I can give clippings of what has happened in the Russian media from the monitoring we have done. To read in this morning's paper that Iran and Libya are following the Russian example is patent nonsense. As usual The Examiner never sought——
(Interruptions.)
The Senator seems disappointed that there is not another scare going through the heart of Munster.
Withdraw that remark.
Acting Chairman
The Minister without interruption.
Withdraw that remark; that is wrong.
They cannot think up things bad enough to scare people. I have read reports by Deputy Ned O'Keeffe which put the fear of God into farmers.
That remark should be withdrawn.
Scare tactics only exacerbate this problem.
(Interruptions.)
Acting Chairman
Could we have order. Nobody can hear what is being said.
What is required is a calm and level headed approach. I will not be signing Protocols with any other markets of lesser significance that will give——
(Interruptions.)
I know Senator Kiely does not like any of this and I would ask for the protection of the Chair.
Acting Chairman
The Minister without interruption please.
This is the agenda Fianna Fáil is pursuing on this issue. Yesterday I was in Paris and saw the largest ever beef demonstration by over 12 beef processors. I met the largest Russian buyers. They are making arrangements for the Christmas consignments for their burgers, sausages all made from beef.
(Interruptions.)
Acting Chairman
Order please. I do not know what was said but if it was offensive to Senator Kiely I would ask the Minister to correct it please.
What did I say?
The Minister said that I welcomed news about outbreaks of BSE.
I said the Senator is upset that I am able to give a total reassurance——
That is not what he said.
We should not be terrorising farmers who are genuinely concerned about the prospects of devaluation.
Did the Minister say that the Libyans and the Iranians are not seeking similar arrangements?
There is no indication from Tripoli nor has there been any from the Libyan authorities to that effect but the Iranians, before this was ever agreed, sought to take the province of Munster out. I would not agree to that. I made that publicly clear but since the Russian deal there has been no discussion to that effect. I hope that makes it absolutely clear because I want to operate on a totally transparent policy and on that, I am happy to pit my record against the Senator's.
(Interruptions.)
We are putting in place an animal location file in which we will have the calf registration records, the TB records and the premium records integrated into one computer file for all animals. We will have traceability for all farms for the lifetime of the animal.
It would be better if a programme was put in place —
To that we will add a quality assurance programme which may require independent veterinary certification.
Senator Dardis said that I was playing a game of catch up and so on, some people have mentioned complacency on my part and a lack of political action. I have been working 16 and 18 hours a day on this since 20 March. My Department's good relations with the Commission and the Standing Veterinary Committee has ensured that, above any other country in Europe, we are regarded as the most credible country on BSE. We do not have a JCB approach to BSE and we can stand over our controls. If it is the case that there is a higher level of incidence of BSE then we have to tighten our controls further. If that means playing catch up, then I am prepared to do so to ensure that we have ever tighter controls.
This is an international crisis. Beef consumption has dropped right across the world. Countries that have never had a case of CJD or its new strain and countries that have no BSE have suffered a reduction in beef consumption. The resolution of this problem ultimately lies in science. I want to assure the Irish public and the Irish consumers, not to speak of international delegations of veterinarians, that we have the strictest policy in relation to the eradication of BSE in the world. Our policy of extinguishing the herds in which it exists, tracing the cohorts of animals which might have had eaten the same feed previously and taking out the progeny of cows with BSE, coupled with our totally effective controls on meat and bone meal and the removal of depopulated meat, is a collective series of responses of which any Government in Europe would be proud. I have no hesitation in saying that Irish beef is safe and consumers can enjoy it as the high quality, nutritious product it is.