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Seanad Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 6 Nov 1996

Vol. 149 No. 4

Economic Development of Border Counties: Motion.

I move:

That Seanad Éireann condemns the Government's lack of commitment towards the economic development of the Border counties; stresses the absolute necessity to draw the maximum amount of EU funding available to this area; and calls on the Government to utilise all available peace initiative funds towards industrial infrastructural development in the Border areas.

I need more than the allocated time to establish the justification for the motion. The Minister of State should discuss this matter with the Minister for Finance and the Taoiseach at the first opportunity. This matter will not go away. There was a two day debate on it in the Dáil and it is important for the Government to recognise that the six southern Border counties have been poorly treated in the last 25 years. There has been no serious attempt by the Government to do anything other than have a two page article in today's Irish Independent which is not factual and is pure propaganda. I could tell the editor of the Irish Independent that it is a total misrepresentation of the facts.

How many American trade missions have been to the six southern Border counties? The answer is none, while there is one nearly every week in the north of Ireland. It is difficult for me to read in newspapers circulated in Donegal and printed in the north of Ireland that the North-West Partnership has made a breakthrough. This partnership does not include the southern Border counties.

The tragedy is that the Irish Independent of 28 October 1996 stated there is to be a cut in EU aid to Ireland because we have joined the “rich man's club”. The six southern Border counties, and the west of Ireland, are far from prepared to join this club. The Government does not seem to recognise that there is a problem. This is borne out by the fact that it has not appointed anyone from that area as a Minister of State. The Minister of State at the Department of the Taoiseach, Deputy Carey, is able, but he does not have a clue about what is happening on the ground in that region.

It is surprising that Deputies Nealon and Harte and other prominent Deputies who were Ministers of State in previous Governments were not suitable for such an appointment. This is consistent with the Government turning a blind eye to the problems of the southern Border counties. I am sure Senator Reynolds understands what is happening in Leitrim. In the debate in the other House, Deputy Nealon admitted there was organised confusion. There are 74 committees. If someone came to me tomorrow with a small project, I would tell them to go to the credit union.

It is a shambles. I am a member of the county enterprise board, the Strabane-Lifford commission, ERNACT and the North-West cross-Border group, and it is a waste of time attending them. I ask the Minister to look at the Sunday Business Post of 28 July which lists areas where new jobs have been created. There is not a single job listed for anywhere in the six southern Border counties. Every second day there is some development across the Border. Two weeks ago we nearly lost £78 million in EU funding. Joe McCartan, the Fine Gael MEP from Leitrim, decided not to vote on the issue as he did not think it was a problem.

I ask the Senator to refrain from mentioning those who are not Members of the House and are not here to defend themselves.

Senator McGowan should withdraw that statement. Has he proof that the MEP did not or could not vote?

Yes, beyond doubt.

The Senator has not. He should withdraw that statement.

Senator McGowan on the motion before the House.

Senator Reynolds should read The Irish Times of 10 October 1996 and ask them to withdraw it.

As the Senator knows, everything written in the newspapers cannot be believed.

Senator McGowan should not refer to people who are not Members of this House.

Am I hurting the Opposition so much that I am being interrupted?

Mr. McCartan, MEP, has represented Connacht-Ulster very successfully for the last 20 years.

Is this too hot an issue? There was a proposed cut of £78 million under the Peace and Reconciliation Fund. Pat the Cope Gallagher MEP, brought this matter to light and to a vote.

That is nonsense.

Why can the Senator not listen to what I am saying?

I ask the Senator to refrain from referring to people who are not Members of this House.

I am sure the Senator will have time to reply.

Senator McGowan, without interruption.

Two weeks ago in Lifford Commissioner Wulf-Mathies said we should put pressure on the Minister for Finance to review funding for the Border regions. The Government must wake up to the fact that we are in danger of losing the £78 million. Deputies and Senators from the southern Border counties agree this Government is neglecting the region. It is difficult for them to defend the indefensible. The Minister of State at the Department of Finance, Deputy Doyle, is far removed from the problems in the southern Border counties. IDA Ireland, the county enterprise boards and various other agencies are responsible for providing jobs, but their hands are tied because there is no additional funding for these counties yet everyday we read in the newspapers about money being made available to the Northern counties. Yesterday The Derry Journal——

The Senator is aware he should not display newspapers in the Chamber.

I do not pay for The Derry Journal to advertise it but I am entitled to highlight what is in it.

The Senator can quote from it but he cannot display it.

I have a difficult job to do but I do not expect results. I read in The Derry Journal of 5 November ——

I have already explained to the Senator that he cannot display newspapers in the House.

——that £10 million has been provided for a footbridge across the River Foyle. If the six southern Border counties got £10 million, I would not have tabled this motion. Industrialists are encouraged to set up across the Border.

There is no money for tourism related projects in the South yet the northern counties have received 60 per cent funding for projects such as the development of piers and lakes. I ask the Minister to tell me how much Bord Fáilte is getting, where it spends it and why funding is not available to private individuals to develop farmhouse accommodation, etc. in the six southern Border counties. We have received no money from the Fund for Peace and Reconciliation or from Bord Fáilte.

I do not have time to go into detail on the neglect of the six southern Border counties. The Minister of State at the Department of the Taoiseach, Deputy Carey, did not ask an American delegation to visit the six southern Border counties because he does not know the problems there. It is a tragedy that a suitable Minister of State has not been appointed to the six southern Border counties. The electorate knows the Government has totally neglected these counties and my colleagues will not fool the people if they attempt to defend the Government.

If someone wanted to start a small industry in this region, I would send them to the credit union or to the bank. I would not impose such a jungle of organisations on them. I can only briefly outline in the time available to me the neglect of the Border regions. I hope the Minister will explain to the Minister for Finance the seriousness of the matter because if she does not, she will pay a high price at the next election.

I second the motion. There is no doubt the six southern Border counties are badly neglected. Northern Ireland receives 80 per cent funding, while we get 20 per cent. The Government must try to remedy that. We in the Border counties suffered more economically than the northern counties, which suffered physically. They received money from the British Exchequer and from insurance companies. However, the Border counties have no tourism or business prospects.

The Leader programme is administered by the Department of Agriculture, Food and Forestry; the North-West Partnership is administered by the Department of the Taoiseach, the county enterprise boards are the responsibility of the Department of Enterprise and Employment; INTERREG is administered by the Department of Tourism and Trade and every Department has its finger in the Fund for Peace and Reconciliation. There is organised confusion. Sligo is coming to grips with it by trying to set up a one-stop-shop.

I am annoyed we will not get any money. The only elected voluntary organisations are the local authorities, yet they have been ignored. Our case was not properly made in Europe at the outset. County councils have the infrastructure, the expertise and the necessary equipment to help set up projects. Few projects would have got off the ground were it not for the county councils. We should be more involved so that there is full accountability. Many voluntary organisations have been set up overnight in Dublin. What has Dublin to do with the Border counties? Why were these committees not established in that area?

I am not casting aspersions but we were disappointed at Deputy Carey's appointment as Minister of State at the Department of the Taoiseach. It is sad the Government did not think it worthwhile to appoint a person from the Border counties.

If the Senator votes for me at the next election, I will do that job.

I would have no complaints because the Senator is fully aware of the problems as he is the third generation of his family to be involved in politics in the Border area and he knows the people across the Border. Deputies Harte and Nealon were excellent Ministers.

I ask the Senator to refrain from mentioning people who are not Members of this House.

Some people in the Border counties were highly insulted when none of them was selected for this important task. It will be seen from the census that Border counties are in decline and no one knows that better than Senator Reynolds. The population is dropping drastically. One has only to visit Enniskillen, Garrison or Belcoo to see how much money is spent in those areas. We are not getting anything. We could give many examples of the amount of money spent north of the Border.

The Sligo Park Hotel.

That is only a pittance. Senator McGowan cited £10 million for a little footbridge.

Some £35 million for the Ballymore-Ballyconnell canal.

Under Fianna Fáil.

Senator Farrell without interruption.

That is thanks to the late Taoiseach Charles J. Haughey.

He is not dead.

Many Fine Gael politicians criticised and castigated him and said it would never happen.

Senator Farrell on the motion.

If it were not for him, the canal would never have been opened. It has transformed Senator Reynolds's part of County Leitrim and he should say a prayer of thanks to Charlie Haughey.

I slapped him on the back for it.

If Charlie Haughey were Taoiseach now, the Border counties would not be neglected.

The Opposition should look into its own soul.

Senator Reynolds will have an opportunity to make a contribution soon. Senator Farrell, without interruption.

I ask the Minister of State, who is a hard worker——

Senator Farrell is as charming as ever.

——to use her ability and energy to ensure the Government remedies the wrong done to Border counties. It is in its interest as much as the people in the regions. It is time the plethora of organisations handling all the funds were abolished. As Deputy Nealon said in the Dáil, it is a case of pass the buck. People are passed from one agency to another and they do not know who to go to in the end. Consultants are required to prepare cases and we know what that costs. The people with an idea spend the few pounds they saved to invest in their project on paperwork. I appeal to the Minister to put an end to that. She should adopt what was known in my young days as "the pick and shovel" approach and give our Border counties the attention they so badly deserve.

I move amendment No. 1:

To delete all words after "That" and substitute the following:

"Seanad Éireann commends the Government's commitment towards the economic development of the Border counties and is confident that the maximum amount of EU funding available to the Border region will be drawn down in timely fashion over the lifetime of the EU programmes relevant to the area. Seanad Éireann acknowledges that a full consultative process was undertaken in Northern Ireland and the Border counties by the European Commission Task Force. Seanad Éireann further notes that local opinion in regard to the implementation of the measures was overwhelmingly to the effect that implementation of the measures be devolved to local implementing mechanisms and away from central Government Departments. Seanad Éireann also recognises that the weight to be given to the various strands of the Peace Programme, including the question of aid towards infrastructural development in the Border region, was based on this local consultative process.".

Senator McGowan and those of us who live in the Border area hold the ideal of funding close to our heart. This motion was discussed on 16 May 1996 and the wording was exactly the same. It reminds me of the words of the late James Dillon — with a lie well told and told often enough he was damned if the truth would ever catch up with it. If the motion is repeatedly tabled, people may believe we are in serious financial difficulties in the six Border counties.

Senator McGowan has given no real indication of how he would improve matters. The only example he has given is that there is 70 per cent funding in Northern Ireland and 30 per cent funding in the Border counties. I agree with that. There should be a level playing pitch. However, it reminds me of one of my great experiences as a fledgling politician in Leitrim County Council when the Anglo-Irish Agreement was signed in 1985. As I thought it was a wonderful piece of diplomacy and democracy on behalf of any Government to get such an agreement, I introduced a motion in Leitrim County Council to get its support. The Fianna Fáil members voted against the motion. We know that Mr. Haughey, who is not late——

He is late of the Oireachtas.

——sent the late Brian Lenihan to Washington to scupper the Anglo-Irish Agreement. While I believe one has to look forward rather than backwards on Northern Ireland, one must consider that type of politicking. If the logical conclusion is drawn, my colleagues on Leitrim County Council in 1985 who voted against the motion on the Anglo-Irish Agreement, voted against the setting up of the International Fund for Ireland which was established on foot of the Anglo-Irish Agreement.

That is not true.

It is true. It is logical. They were opposed to the funding. Hypocrisy is not good for politics. The logical conclusion to be drawn from what my colleagues on the council did was that they were hypocritical because when the funding came on stream they were bought but complained it was insufficient.

Senator McGowan made another point about US trade industrial missions to the southern regions. I do not know how many have been in Donegal, Cavan, Monaghan or other Border counties.

That is the tragedy. We do not know.

Senator Reynolds without interruption.

In 1994, there was no US-based manufacturing industry in County Leitrim. It was the only county in the country which had none. Since my party came into Government, three American-based US industrialists have set up in Leitrim and will employ over 750 people. They must have come in at some stage and Fianna Fáil did not bring them in. That is the only example I can give and it is not a bad one.

The International Fund for Ireland has been discussed. Since 1987, over £290 million has been spent in the Border counties and Northern Ireland. That was in the IFI annual report 1995. That is a phenomenal amount of money.

Surely the Senator is not taking credit for that?

I am not taking credit for anything. All I am saying is that the motion tabled by the Opposition is not well-thought out. It is scaremongering. I have no difficulty with the fact that there are problems with the number of organisations established to allocate the money but I have a major difficulty with the wording of the motion tabled by the Opposition. It condemns the Government for a lack of incentives and creativity. I have given the Senator an example of the creation of 750 jobs with American firms with the help of the funds.

Neither the Senator nor the Government put those jobs in place.

The Government helped. Unlike many Fianna Fáil politicians I would not claim that, without me, the jobs would not be there. We played a part and that role will be looked upon favourably at the next election.

With regard to the International Fund for Ireland, £35 million was spent on the Ballinamore-Ballyconnell canal. It has made a great difference to the area in which I live.

Surely the Senator will not take the credit for that.

In addition, £3 million was given to the Shannon-Erne link marketing company to market the area for three years. I can see the difference it has made because I live in the area. I take my hat off to the Governments who provided funding to the IFI. I always give credit to the former Taoiseach, Charles Haughey, for putting the project in place. When he was in County Leitrim I treated him a lot better than members of his party. When he was doing a good job they got rid of him. Logic sometimes goes by the board with Fianna Fáil.

That statement is hardly relevant to the motion.

It is as relevant as all the Senator's statements. If I make one irrelevant statement, that is not too bad.

I will not name the person who raised the issue of the peace and reconciliation fund and said that, but for his diligence, there would have been a cut of £80 million in the amount allocated to the Border counties but the facts are that there was never a proposal to take £80 million from the £300 million provided in the Delors package. That was simply a scaremongering tactic to get publicity. A number of community organisations which had applied for funds for worthwhile projects were convinced that the funding would not be put in place because of this individual's crying and whinging.

The next time Senator McGowan puts down a motion on the Border counties he should think more about it; he should not be critical just for the sake of it. A large amount has been spent in the region. My colleague the Minister of State, Deputy Carey, is reviewing the establishment of the existing agencies and organisations, most of which were established when Fianna Fáil was in power.

Is Deputy Nealon correct when he says it is organised confusion?

I come from and represent a Border county. Last week I and a number of my colleagues visited republican prisoners in Britain. We have taken up the cause of republican prisoners in Britain because we consider the prisoners central to the peace process. In general, the republican movement has not reciprocated. The resumption of the paramilitary campaign in Northern Ireland is most damaging to cross-Border co-operation and development. I welcome the recent reports of negotiations between Gerry Adams and John Hume with a view to reinstating the republican ceasefire. I urge the republican movement to take into account the economic well being of people living in Border areas.

This motion condemns the Government's so-called lack of support for Border development. I find the motion surprising. While we would all welcome the utilisation of the money available under the peace and reconciliation fund, it is unfortunate that Fianna Fáil is such a late convert to the idea. When this issue was debated in the Dáil the Fianna Fáil Leader, Deputy Bertie Ahern, made much of how he was responsible for putting the peace and reconciliation fund in place. At a cursory glance he is correct but does he not recall the prolonged negotiations that went into the formulation of the workings of the fund? Does Fianna Fáil not recall that, when it agreed to the peace and reconciliation fund, it also agreed to its subheads which include urban and rural regeneration, cross-Border development, social inclusion and technical assistance?

Fianna Fáil should also recall that the decision to devolve the disbursement of money under the fund to a local level was taken by the task force established by the EU Commission. The decision to devolve this responsibility is consistent with one of the key aims of the fund, namely, the need to combat social exclusion and to promote cross-Border co-operation. The intermediate funding authorities established by this process were only made aware of their statutory responsibilities in December 1995. Now they are functioning they will have no difficulty disbursing the funds. These intermediary groups are responsible for the disbursement of 70 per cent of the total funds available to the Border counties through the EU. Fianna Fáil should not pretend that it was not involved in the consultation process. It was involved through its participation in local authorities and regional authorities and through its participation in Government.

The submission of the Border Regional Authority to the consultation process emphasised the need to use the initiative to promote reconciliation on both sides of the Border and excluded large infrastructural development. There is a suspicion in some Border areas that the use to which the peace and reconciliation funds are being put differs on both sides of the Border. There is some truth in this suspicion but other issues are involved.

The division between the allocation of funds in the ratio 80:20 between North and South was arrived at after Fianna Fáil indicated to the EU Commission that it was unhappy with the 75:25 breakdown originally proposed. If this is indicative of the success of Fianna Fáil lobbying I am sure the people of the Border counties would do as well without it.

I do not begrudge our friends on the other side of the Border the lion's share of the fund. They are already disadvantaged in terms of available EU funding by virtue of their membership of the UK. We, on this side of the Border decided to spend our share of the peace and reconciliation fund on combating social exclusion. That choice was no doubt informed by the availability of EU funds for other purposes.

I would like to address the allegations made by Fianna Fáil about the Labour Party's commitment to funding the Border region. Let me assure them they need not worry unduly. Rather than venting their ire on the socialist group in the European Parliament, Fianna Fáil would do better to thank it. The proposal to establish the fund was taken by John Hume, a member of the socialist group, and endorsed by Jacques Delors, the then President of the Commission and a French socialist. When one compares that record to that of Fianna Fáil, the Labour Party and its European allies fare well. When the Delors package was last voted on in March 1996 not one Fianna Fáil MEP was present to support it. So much for Fianna Fáil's commitment to the Border counties.

The Labour Party has always believed that the funding was never in danger. As is commonly known, there are organisational difficulties involved in drawing down moneys from new funds. Fianna Fáil owes an apology to my party colleague, Bernie Malone, MEP, who was lambasted by Deputy Pat the Cope Gallagher who has dual membership of the Dáil and European Parliament, on one of his frequent visits to Ireland when the original decision was taken by the Parliament's budgetary committee.

The Senator should refrain from mentioning the names of those who are not here to defend themselves.

Thankfully, Ms Malone has been able to convince the Parliament to allocate money to the fund from last year's reserve fund. The energies of Deputy Gallagher would have been better spent in a constructive fashion rather than in the petty——

The Senator must refrain from mentioning people who are not in the House.

——politics in which he has been engaged over recent weeks. It is difficult to escape the conclusion that Fianna Fáil are playing politics with the Northern Ireland issue. This has been a worrying development of late and one from which I wish they would desist, however desperate they may be to climb back into power.

The Senator is not a worry in Letterkenny.

I see from the support the Senator has that there is not much point in taking the motion.

This is a return of a debate on 15 May and the motion which has been put down is even worse this time. If Senator McGowan and his party are willing to condemn the Government what should they do with those members of their party who were responsible for this area down through the years? They should take them out and hang them because if they are going to give equal treatment that is what they should get.

Things have never been better in the Border counties which is why this motion is so out of context.

That is not what the Senator told me privately.

There is no doubt that there are problems. Donegal County Council says on a regular basis that it has too much funds, does not know what to do with them and is confused. The double think is incredible.

The Senator has complimented me privately.

The problem is that we cannot get at them.

We are befuddled with the thinking in Donegal. This is the language used and they condemn the Government because there is nothing.

The Senator should keep telling the people that. They do not believe him.

Senator Cotter, without interruption.

It is incredible because there is such a multiplicity of funds at present. In 1985 there was nothing. When the former Taoiseach, Dr. Garret FitzGerald, signed the Anglo-Irish Agreement he sent an emissary around the world to try to ensure the agreement was accepted.

And Margaret Thatcher said "out, out, out."

This is hypocrisy. I did not like the gratuitous comment made about the Minister of State, Deputy Carey. The suggestion was that he knows nothing about what he is doing. The person who said that should withdraw it. There are many Ministers who are responsible for areas that they do not live in. If that was a criterion, no Government would ever be put together.

We only asked if there was a suitable Minister——

Senator Cotter, without interruption. Senator McGowan had his opportunity to speak earlier.

I have been misquoted.

The position is the Minister of State, Deputy Carey, is doing a brilliant job. He comes from the west and since he knows exactly what life is like in County Clare it does not take much intelligence to project that into Donegal, Monaghan and Cavan.

I am glad he is doing a good job for the Senator.

He is an intelligent man and is able to learn things for himself. I do not find everything absolutely perfect in the Border counties. The 1977 election has a great deal to do with the problems there. If the Senator wants to crucify somebody, he should go after the former Taoiseach, Mr. Jack Lynch.

I have already pointed out that Senators should not refer to people who are not Members of the House.

I apologise. I got carried away and should not have mentioned his name. The people who put together the strategy for winning that election have to carry a huge burden with regard to the development of not just the Border counties but every other county in Ireland as well. Local authorities do not spend a penny on local development. They put something into infrastructure which they get from Dublin. They do not put their own resources into local development.

That is not correct. On a point of order, Donegal County Council——

Senator Cotter, without interruption.

They have been reduced to the point of screaming at Ministers. The Senator's party is totally responsible for what happened to the country.

On a point of order, that is a false statement.

That is not a point of order.

Donegal County Council has put £500,000 into——

There is no local democracy because Fianna Fáil wiped it out. That is the position.

The Senator should keep his cool.

I am afraid I have to shout in order to be heard. In all other European countries local government spends its resources on local development; in Ireland money spent is measured in pennies and halfpennys. Over the past few years community groups have been established in Border counties for the purpose of bringing about local development. Local councils have responsibility for a defined area but they cannot deliver as there are no resources. All they can do is scream and shout at Government to give them more money. It is a disgrace and if we have any respect for our children we will change that and turn around the 1977 decision.

Senator McGowan should be making positive noises about that. It is much more fundamental and important to the future development of Ireland. This Government is at least looking at that. I work on a regular basis with local community groups in Counties Monaghan and Cavan. It is a shame that we, as local councillors, can only give them verbal support. They get money and do some brilliant work, but they should be able to fund that work themselves. All the other local authorities across Europe have been doing it for the past 20 years. Can anyone imagine the total damage that resulted from the 1977 decision? It is huge.

I am talking about the damage that was done in 1995 and 1996.

Every part of Ireland has a different industrial profile. Monaghan has a particular profile of which we are proud. It has many traditional industries giving very good employment to some tremendous people, but there is a bit of the jigsaw missing. Employment with high added value that tends to employ graduates is completely absent in County Monaghan and the county enterprise board should be able to make a proposal to the Minister. Monaghan should be able to go after that type of industry to create a balance. When the North American Partnership was announced a year and a half ago not a single industry in Monaghan or Cavan was involved as they were not suitable. Some of us were anxious to be positive in the Chamber because there are problems in the Border counties.

I remind the Senator his time is long up.

I would prefer if, when this type of motion is put down again, it were thoughtful and some intellectual energy were used to put it together. There should not be a contribution of a minute and a half to get a line in the Donegal Democrat——

It will come before the Senator in the next general election. That is where he will get his answer.

It should try to achieve something for the people of Ireland.

I ask Senator Cotter to resume his seat.

Wait until the Government gets a drubbing in the next general election.

The Government recognises that the Border region, by virtue of its geographical location, is deserving of special attention. The region is the subject of specific and intense emphasis on the part of this Government in the general area of economic development. This emphasis is both qualitative and quantitative and I do not think that the continual griping and doing down of the region by Opposition Deputies and Senators with redneck rhetoric and manufactured indignation as we heard here this evening is at all helpful.

Before I outline the level of Government commitment to this region, I want to say that I think all of it will be at nought if the IRA ceasefire is not restored. I concur with Senator Maloney's sentiments in this regard. Opposition Senators did not see fit to refer to the economic impact — even if we are only discussing the economic impact quite apart from the social impact — of a restoration of the IRA ceasefire in the motion. The economic impact of a restoration of the IRA ceasefire would be worth much more than all the Government, the British Government, the US Government, the International Fund for Ireland, the EU and all the agencies put together could possibly achieve in the Border regions. The restoration of the IRA ceasefire stands out as the single most important issue for the Border regions of the South and, of course, North of this island. That is where the real problem lies and it is where we should all expend our energies instead of on futile irrational exchanges across this House which will do little to solve the outstanding problems in the Border region.

The region is one of the principal beneficiaries of the Operational Programmes under the Community Support Framework 1994 to 1999. In addition, the region benefits exclusively from substantial additional funding provided under the International Fund for Ireland, the Ireland/Northern Ireland INTERREG Programme and the special EU Programme for Peace and Reconciliation in Northern Ireland and the Border Counties of Ireland.

The INTERREG and peace programmes between them provide for additional EU funding for the region of £120 million—maybe Opposition Senators would add up these figures. When the full amount of public investment provided under the programmes is taken into consideration the full extent of additional funding available to the Border region under these two programmes exceeds £160 million. This investment is additional to what is available to the Border region under the Community Support Framework and other Community initiatives and, of course, the International Fund for Ireland.

As well as providing for this substantial level of investment, the Government is committed to the concept of full additionality. In the Dáil on 25 April 1995, the Minister for Finance gave a commitment that, once all the operational programmes under the Community Support Framework and the various Community initiatives had been approved by the European Commission, the relevant Departments would be asked to compile details of forecast expenditure under these programmes in each of the eight regions. This exercise has been completed and the forecasts from the baseline data by reference to which additionality of the expenditure under the peace initiative and INTERREG can be demonstrated over the period of the programmes.

In the specific instance of the Border counties, the Department of Finance is compiling details of projected expenditure in the area under the CSF and other Community initiative programmes. This information is updated on a periodic basis taking account of outturn, together with expenditure outturns under the peace and INTERREG programmes in order to demonstrate the additionality of expenditure over the period. The EU Operational Committee of the Border Regional Authority is supplied with the baseline data and the periodic reports in order that it can assure itself of the additionality of the expenditure under the programmes.

The baseline figures in respect of all operational programmes supporting investment in the Border region were presented to the Border Regional Authority's EU Operational Committee at a special meeting last July attended by Esben Poulsen, head of the Irish desk in the Regional Policies Directorate of the European Commission. These will be updated at future meetings of this Border committee and will also be monitored by the Community Support Framework Monitoring Committee.

Before I go into detail about the considerable additional infrastructural investment which has been provided for the Border Region under INTERREG and, indeed, the peace programme, I want to refer specifically to the Opposition request that the Government utilise all available peace initiative funds towards infrastructural development in the Border areas. The Senators who put down the Opposition motion seem to have a basic misunderstanding of what the Special EU Programme for Peace and Reconciliation is about.

In drawing together proposals for the Special Support Programme for Peace and Reconciliation the relevant authorities in both member states took into account the overwhelming need to maintain the momentum for peace, the prevailing economic and social conditions in the eligible areas, the priorities set for the initiative by the Commission, the results of the prior appraisal and the outcome of the consultation arrangements. All of these have combined to provide the rationale for the programme.

The widespread consultation process engaged in the eligible areas by the European Commission Task Force found that the particular emphasis of the programme should be on peace, reconciliation and social inclusion. These findings were borne out in the course of an extensive consultation exercise in both eligible areas by the Department of Finance and the Department of Finance and Personnel, Belfast. In the Border region the consultation process included a conference organised by the Department of Finance in Ballyconnell, County Cavan, on 20 April 1995. This was attended by over 200 delegates, including participation from across the Border in Northern Ireland.

In addition to the two Government sponsored conferences, a further conference was organised on behalf of the European Parliament's Committee on Regional Policy in conjunction with the European Commission. The impetus for the conference came from a joint initiative of Northern Ireland's three MEPs, who had been closely associated with the work of the task force from the outset. The conferences, which brought together a very broad range of interests from both Northern Ireland and the Border counties, was an important opportunity for the European institutions to express, at the highest level, their ongoing support for the developing peace process.

Without exception, all recognised the particular emphasis the programme would need to place on measures to support peace and reconciliation. There was no support whatever for the view that the programme should allocate significant sums to infrastructure. The overwhelming consensus of those consulted endorsed the view that the prospect of lasting peace requires particular efforts to overcome the effects of the disruption of normal economic and social relations. By addressing these challenges, the programme aims to help secure a lasting peace.

In drawing up the programme full regárd was had to ensuring the optimum degree of complementarity and integration with the Community Support Framework Operational Programmes and relevant Community initiatives, particularly the Ireland/Northern Ireland INTERREG Programmes, in addition to the range of activities carried out under the IFI. In the Border region particularly there was a clearly perceived need to build on the support available under the Community Support Framework and the INTERREG programme to fully redress the negative perceptions that the region has had to face — I would hope that the movers of the motion would understand the importance of not increasing negative perceptions as we all try to help the region.

There are specific tourism measures under the urban and rural regeneration subprogramme which set out to give the necessary boost to ongoing efforts in this area. While there will be some scope for the statutory tourism agencies in this, the major emphasis is on bottom-up development arising from community based actions.

If the present peace process proves successful, then the restoration of economic and other normality in Northern Ireland should result in considerably lessening the specific and unique problems faced by the Border region vis-a-vis the rest of Ireland. We cannot emphasis that enough and I must say that none of the Fianna Fáil Senators who contributed mentioned the importance of the peace process to economic progress in the Border regions. The mind boggles.

As to how the programme should be implemented, the European Commission Task Force, following its widespread consultations in Northern Ireland and the Border counties, strongly recommended that as much as possible of the implementation of the programme be developed to local delivery mechanisms. Given the objectives of peace and reconciliation and the paramount importance of the need to combat social exclusion, it was considered that implementing mechanisms independent of Government and closer to the grassroots offered the best means of achieving these goals. The Commission, in adopting the report of the task force, required the respective Administrations to draw up proposals putting these recommendations into effect.

To ensure the independence of the intermediary funding bodies, the Commission required that they be funded through the medium of global grant agreements signed directly between them and the Commission. The devolved delivery mechanisms for the Border counties were put in place following a series of extensive consultations between Departments and the Commission.

The bodies set up have full discretion, within the parameters set by the programme, in relation to the implementation of the measures for which they are responsible. The exercise of this discretion sometimes gives rise to differences in interpretation between intermediary funding bodies, North and South, dealing with similar actions and measures. The joint monitoring committee for the programme monitors the activities of all of the implementing mechanisms and is in a position to require co-ordination of actions where this is appropriate and necessary.

Area Development Management Limited, already charged with responsibility for the local development programme, and the Combat Poverty Agency were the bodies charged with delivering a wide range of measures across the programme. ADM and the Combat Poverty Agency report to the Departments of the Taoiseach and Social Welfare respectively. Co-operation North, in conjunction with IBEC and CBI (Northern Ireland), implements the cross-Border business and culture measure. The Department of Foreign Affairs has responsibility for overseeing this measure.

The statutory responsibilities of the intermediary funding bodies became effective on 8 December 1995 when, with Commissioner Wulf-Mathies on behalf of the Commission, they signed the global grant agreements which governed how they were to implement the relevant measures of the programme for which they were responsible. The bodies then had to set up offices, employ staff etc., and this process was substantially completed by end of February 1996. Since that date, the bodies have been actively involved in implementing the actions provided for under the measures.

Another innovative delivery mechanism involved county council-led task forces, operating in each of the six Border counties. They are responsible for delivering a wide range of actions in the urban and rural regeneration areas. The task forces have a considerable degree of discretion in deciding how the allocation is to be spent, but the programme requires that representative and relevant local interests be consulted as appropriate. The Department of the Environment has responsibility for overseeing the activities of the task forces. The total EU funding disbursed through these devolved mechanisms totals £33.7 million, or over 70 per cent of the amount allocated to the Border counties. The Commission accepted that a small number of measures could not be appropriately devolved to intermediary funding bodies. The Department of the Environment is responsible for EU investment totalling £5.2 million under the cross-Border infrastructure measure and a further £5 million in EU funding has been provided for cross-Border co-operative actions involving public bodies. I hope Senators are totting up these figures.

The loan subsidy provisions are being administered by the European Investment Bank through the medium of the commercial banking system in the Border area. The Department of Finance is responsible for overseeing this measure and almost all of available funding has already been committed. It also implements the technical assistance measure, totalling nearly £1 million in EU funding. Its function is to support the administration of the programme. Nearly all of the technical assistance budget goes to meet the running expenses of the intermediary funding bodies. The total commitment figure to date is almost £28 million, or over 58 per cent of the EU allocation to the Border counties. This figure is highly satisfactory given the difficult circumstances pertaining, and it represents a high current pace of commitment as most of it has been committed within the last six months. I expect that rate of progress to continue and improve now that all of the delivery mechanisms are fully operational.

While the bulk of commitments to date can be accounted for by the activities of State agencies, the intermediary funding bodies have recently recorded impressive progress. In the coming months I expect them to account for an increasing share of commitments. It should be borne in mind that, in many respects, they had to engage on a steep learning curve and the areas of the programme for which they hold responsibility are among the most sensitive and difficult.

There has been a long standing commitment on the part of the Government that Structural Fund aid under the programme would be additional to Structural Fund spending in the Border counties under the Community Support Framework for 1994 to 1999 and other Community initiatives, and that the national matching finance would also be additional. The Government has provided funding to match fully the EU funding available under the peace programme. The programme specifically enshrines the principle of additionality, and I quote paragraph 3.29 which states

The expenditure under the programme will be fully additional to expenditure which is due to take place in the eligible areas under the SPD for Northern Ireland, the CSF for Ireland and the Community initiative programmes.

I would like to clarify the position on the matching funding element for the benefit of the House. In Northern Ireland and the Border counties funding to match the EU contribution comes from a variety of sources. However, as I already indicated, where necessary the matching funds will come from the two central Governments. It may also be provided from a variety of sources including local authorities, the private sector and community and voluntary groups as appropriate.

Due to the nature of the programme, many projects fall to be submitted from disadvantaged groups or individuals who may have extreme difficulty in making a direct contribution to the financing of their proposals and this is taken into account in deciding the level of funding from the programme. Account may also be taken of resources in kind; for example, premises and human resources. It is important that beneficiary groups be given every opportunity to develop some sense of ownership of a project even if a financial commitment from them is not appropriate. The International Fund for Ireland will also co-finance some of the projects under this programme.

Before I leave the subject of the peace programme, I want to return to the question of support for industrial infrastructural development. While the general consensus was that financial provision for investment in infrastructure was inappropriate to the peace programme, there, nevertheless, is provision for such investment under sub-programme 3, measure 2, where nearly £7 million has been made available for road improvements in the Border counties. The programme also contains other measures which are intended to contribute more directly to economic development, particularly sub-programme 5. Measures 1 and 2 of that sub-programme offer some scope for additional assistance in the area of provision of industrial sites. These measures are administered by the commercial banks and ADM Ltd. respectively. An essential condition is that relevant Departments and, in particular, the county enterprise boards are involved.

Senators living in Border areas may be aware of the criticism from all sectors in Northern Ireland to the funding of an advance factory in Strabane under this sub-programme. The question of additionality was raised in that connection and I would not like to hear similar criticism levelled should this measure be availed of in like fashion in the Border counties. While there is some funding available for infrastructural development under the peace programme, the Seanad might note that considerable investment in infrastructural services in the Border region was made under the Ireland/Northern Ireland INTERREG programme. The European Commission approved an EU aid allocation to the INTERREG II programme for the six years, 1994 to 1999, of 157 million ECU, £125.6 million, of which 89.5 million ECU, £72 million, was earmarked for the Border counties. With Exchequer co-financing and funding from State agencies and the private sector the total package for the Border counties under INTERREG amounts to nearly £115 million.

The Government placed particular emphasis on ensuring the additionality of funding under INTERREG I. The independent evaluation carried out on the INTERREG I programme on behalf of the Commission bore this out. The emphasis on ensuring additionality has been continued under INTERREG II. Senators are aware that the programme provides for funding for a wide range of measures in support of economic development in Northern Ireland and the six Border counties of Ireland — Cavan, Donegal, Leitrim, Louth, Monaghan and Sligo.

At the time of the drawing up of the INTERREG programme, the Government took the view that a coherent economic development strategy for the Border region is dependent on adequate infrastructural foundations. The Government agreed that the bulk of the funding on the southern side be allocated to the infrastructural and environmental protection sub-programmes. Roads, sanitary services, electricity networks and telecommunications are vital underpinnings to the tourism, agricultural, food processing, industrial and service sectors. The Commission accepted the argument that a significant part of INTERREG funding should be invested in infrastructure and over £32 million out of the £72 million was reserved for such areas. When the matching funding elements provided by the State and State agencies is added, the total available for infrastructure in the Border counties comes to over £51 million.

Under the infrastructure sub-programme, a special emphasis is being placed on investment in non-national roads additional to the main Operational Programme on Transport. This includes the improvement of roads which are of importance to economic and rural community development in the Border area, including cross-Border roads that were closed due to the security situation. Other road improvements includes projects which are complementary to the trans-European road network.

The energy provision relates principally to funding for electricity interconnection projects between the northern and southern electricity systems, including the restoration of the main interconnector on the Louth/Armagh border. These projects are of significance to the development of the electricity market and to the containment of costs. Funding for telecommunications is supporting the creation and development of a digital communications system which will benefit communities on both sides of the Border. Exporters are increasingly dependent on telecommunications for marketing, purchasing and the electronic transfers of cash transactions. Industrialists are reluctant to locate in areas where modern telecommunication facilities are not available.

The International Fund for Ireland operates through a range of sectoral programmes — tourism, business enterprise, community initiatives, rural development, urban development, etc. One of the fund's projects which has particularly benefited the Border region has been the £30 million restoration of the Shannon/Erne waterway. This project, which has also received substantial funding under INTERREG and the Operational Programme for Tourism, is the largest single project approved by the fund so far.

The fund's Border towns and villages — BTV —scheme focuses on those towns and villages closest to the Border and most affected by the troubles of the past two decades. To date, 17 such schemes have been assisted involving total fund support of over £7 million. They include such villages as Carlingford, County Louth, Inniskeen and Clones in County Monaghan, Ballinamore, Manorhamilton and Kiltyclogher in County Leitrim, Blacklion and Swanlinbar in County Cavan and Ballyshannon, Castlefinn, Newtowncunningham and Raphoe in County Donegal. Under the fund's business enterprise programme community groups in a wide number of towns and villages in the Border counties have received considerable assistance towards the provision of workspace.

The North American Business Partnership, in conjunction with Forbairt, has promoted strategic partnerships between high-tech companies in the Border counties and North America. Under phase 1 some 200 jobs have been created. The significant additional EU investment to the Border counties and the additional funding leveraged through the medium of those programmes specific to the Border region are having a significant and noticeable impact on its general economic development. I would like to draw the Seanad's attention to particular instances where Government intervention increased the economic benefit to the region over that originally proposed by the Commission.

The special EU Programme for Peace and Reconciliation was originally conceived to support the peace process in Northern Ireland following the IRA ceasefire. It was not initially the intention of the Commission that it should also apply to the Border counties. The Government argued strongly that the Border region should also be included in the aid framework emerging and following much discussion the Commission agreed to include the five counties of Cavan, Donegal, Leitrim, Louth and Monaghan. The Government continued to push for the inclusion of the entire Border region and the further inclusion of County Sligo was eventually conceded by the Commission.

It is the case that during the consultation period indicative funding proportions of a 75:25 breakdown north and south were being considered by the Commission. However, I note that Deputy Carey, Minister of State with responsibility for funding arrangements in the Border region, remarked in the course of a similar motion taken in the Lower House recently, that Fianna Fáil Border Deputies and Senators had sent a letter criticising the proportion being proposed for the Border region by the Commission to President Santer and Regional Commissioner Wulf-Mathies.

Shortly after this, the Commission informed both member states that the funding would be proportioned on an 80:20 basis; a reduction of some £12 million to the Border region which went instead to Northern Ireland. Take a bow Fianna Fáil. I will leave the Seanad to draw its own conclusions. What I have said is a fact.

That is not true.

Unlike others I am not in the business of manufacturing facts for the record. I would further point out to Senators opposite that the original Commission proposals for the funding of INTERREG II would have resulted in only 25 million ECU, that is £20 million, in EU aid being made available for the Border counties. The Commission's case was that £20 million was all that could be justified for the region on a number of indices, including population levels. My Department, through the aegis of the EU Management Committee for Community Initiatives, succeeded in getting this allocation increased more than threefold to a level significantly higher than that allocated to Northern Ireland.

I return to the critical point: there is no point discussing economic difficulties north or south of the Border if we do not realise that the single greatest contribution to economic growth and the social well being of people on both sides of the Border will come from the restoration of the IRA ceasefire. All our energies must be directed towards building whatever bridges we can to ensure that happens as soon as possible.

In the circumstances the Seanad might agree that the Border region, which on a per capita basis receives significantly more funding than other regions, is being treated very favourably by this Government. I ask the Seanad to support the amendment.

I welcome the Minister to the House to discuss this subject which is particularly important to Senators and Deputies from Border counties. The Border region has suffered greatly in the past decade. The horrific violence in Northern Ireland has cast a terrible shadow over the region. However, despite this, the people have shown great initiative in developing new projects which have yielded considerable benefits and provided employment and financial wealth to the area.

The arrival of peace in August 1994 presented a new opportunity and engendered high hopes for the area. The various investment funds — Leader, INTERREG and the fund for peace and reconciliation — were seen as a tremendous opportunity for developing the area and in particular the food processing sector. Tourism and many other sectors have grown. However, this Government has shown little interest in the area. There is no commitment to economic development in the Border counties.

If the Minister lived in a Border county — Monaghan, Cavan, Louth, Donegal, Sligo or Leitrim—she would better understand our problems. The Minister mentioned an 80:20 breakdown of funding but the counties south of the Border are completely disadvantaged by this ratio. I am not saying the Government can do much about that; it is an EU directive. However, some pressure should be exerted on the powers that be to reverse this ratio because it is seen as overly favourable towards the northern counties.

The ceasefire was a wonderful experience but the breakdown has been a tremendous blow to the situation in Northern Ireland. I hope we revert to peace very quickly. I call on the Minister, the Taoiseach and the Tánaiste to do everything in their power to restore peace. This is a most important issue and it should be top of the agenda for the Border counties and for Northern Ireland.

I can assure the Senator that it is.

If peace can be restored we will make greater economic progress than we ever imagined.

I ask the Minister to examine the possibility of developing the road from Sligo to Dundalk. This would be a great benefit to the Border counties because the area from Sligo to the port at Greenore needs to be opened. I cannot see where the Minister of State's breakdown of figures relates to problems on the ground. Even the organisations nominated by the Minister do not have the required funding to do the work they would like to do. A road between Sligo and Greenore would be of real benefit to the people of the Border counties.

I hope Senators do not expect me to draw all the strands together because I am hardly equipped with the background to do so. I rose to speak because of the somewhat acerbic note which has crept into the debate. It always pains me when I hear a reference to Northern Ireland because it seems to draw from the Opposition a tone which is most regrettable. Funds within the UK programme have nothing to do with Fianna Fáil, whether they are devoted to the Border areas of Northern Ireland or not. I hope this is not begrudgery about those funds being used or because they are at a certain level.

One eye-opener I have received since I became a Member of this House is the way so many issues are treated like a bone thrown in the middle of the floor for everyone to dive at to see who will get it first. Some issues, such as this one, should engage the attention of nearly everyone in the Oireachtas because they are so deserving. One would think the Opposition would help the Government to present the case and meet the people of the Border areas as one group, not as two groups each doing its best to topple the other. I have had a small amount to do with the efforts by the community in Monaghan to generate tourism, artistic and festival activities, etc. and I am lost in admiration for them. I did not hear an acerbic note in the Four Seasons Hotel or anywhere else when I met these people to help publicise what they were doing.

On an earlier occasion when discussing Northern Ireland such terms as "separated brethern" and "sundered counties" were used and I had reason to remind Senators opposite that the issue of consent has been taken on board by all constitutional parties on this island. The only group in politics which has not done so is Sinn Féin. Yet it appears that the consent is still conditional in some people's minds. This should be eliminated in any discussion, especially on such a broad based matter as this. Comparing Northern Ireland to the Border counties is like comparing apples to oranges — there is no meeting point.

Some Senators may have travelled more than I but it has been my experience that all border areas in Europe have problems, for no other reason than that they are at the end of the production line. The only border where there are no problems is that between the USA and Canada. However, all border areas in Europe have economic problems, particularly when exacerbated by troubles such as those in the North. No one knows better than the people of Monaghan what those troubles are, because they suffered at the hands of the villains who exploded bombs in Monaghan and Clones without warning. Any benefits which go to Northern Ireland are sore and hard earned. I want Monaghan, Clones, Donegal and the other areas to get a fair crack of the whip and the background details given by the Minister indicate they are getting it. They are also blessed with community activists who earn my admiration and the admiration of many more people in the North.

I thank the Minister for her contribution but I have been here long enough to understand those who prepared it. In theory, everything she says is right and I would dearly love to congratulate her if the figures she quoted were true.

Is the Senator accusing me of lying?

No, far from it and I do not wish to provoke anyone. I am a member of the County Donegal Enterprise Board. On 31 December 1995 we had applications worth £1.1 million which had been approved, but we only had £90,000. That is my point. There are many organisations which have not received the money the Department claims. Only 16 out of 60 members of the monitoring committee of the Special Support Programme for Peace and Reconciliation are from the South.

In response to Senator McAughtry, I am far from being jealous or begrudging. I am a northern man and I understand the financial, political and religious problems. I have served on a cross-Border organisation for 21 years and no one has ever accused me of being biased religiously or politically.

The Senator is politically biased in this debate.

I am not. I have a duty to expose neglect. Why is Senator Reynolds interrupting me?

Because Senator McGowan is not making sense.

Senator McGowan without interruption. He has only five minutes for his contribution.

I read the papers every day.

Deputy Reynolds does too.

Keep Deputy Reynolds out of it. That is an indication that the Senator wants to distort my contribution. The presentational gloss is ideal but no one believes it.

If the Senator stands on that ticket in the general election——

Acting Chairman

Senator McGowan without interruption and I appeal to him not to react to provocation.

The Senator who is interrupting me will be standing in the next election and he will have to answer to the electorate. The Ballyconnell canal will not help Senator Reynolds because he did not contribute anything to its improvement.

I contributed more than Senator McGowan and I am not afraid to go before the people. The Senator is making personal remarks. People in glasshouses should not throw stones.

Does the Minister or does the Senator interrupting me believe the six southern Border counties are ready to be removed from objective 1? That is the reason this motion has been put down.

That does not arise yet.

Then the motion is not worded properly.

Acting Chairman

Senator Reynolds, you made your contribution. Please allow Senator McGowan to make his.

Is Senator McGowan condemning the Government because the counties are to be taken out of objective 1? That means things are going too well.

I have not had time to analyse everything the Minister said but one point was misleading. She said that Louth, Cavan, Donegal, Monaghan and Leitrim were originally included and eventually the Government was successful in having Sligo included. That is misrepresentation. It is thanks to the former Commissioner, Mr. MacSharry, that Sligo was included with the other southern Border counties. The Ministers knows that as well as I.

That is not true. I stand by what I said in this House.

The dogs in the street know that it is thanks to Mr. Ray MacSharry——

I am not interested in the dogs' opinion, the issue is too important.

——that Sligo was included for special aid.

That is correct.

The Minister may state otherwise but I have an obligation to put on record that she is not correct. I will make her statement available.

It is on the public record.

It will be a disappointment to many organisations in the six southern Border counties. The theory is nothing less than a gloss over because that funding is not available in these counties. A representative of the Forum for Peace and Reconciliation met six or seven community groups in County Donegal and said that he did not have one pound note to spend on bricks and mortar in the southern Border counties.

The theory is written up by the Departments of Finance and Foreign Affairs but it is not delivered in practice. Even after the Minister of State's speech there will be nothing to deliver on the ground.

Senator Cotter said that local authorities do not have funds and perhaps he is right as far as Monaghan is concerned. My local authority is forced to collect a development fund of £500,000 from Donegal ratepayers to support small projects where the Government has failed. INTERREG funding to support development is being used for sewerage schemes at Muff and Ballybofey in County Donegal. It was announced in 1995 and twice this year but nothing has been delivered. We are getting substitution instead of additionality.

That is untrue.

I hope I will not have to raise the matter again but, if necessary, we will keep pounding at this until the Minister of State recognises that a paper presentation in the Seanad or the Dáil will convince nobody. Those who have to come before the electorate, such as Senator Reynolds and Senator Maloney——

Which we will be proud to do.

——will pay dearly for attempting to disrupt and mislead this House. I have no doubt that they will pay a price. Senator Maloney has already paid a price for trying to mislead them.

The Senator's divisiveness is unworthy of the topic.

Amendment put.
The Seanad divided: Tá, 25; Níl, 22.

  • Belton, Louis J.
  • Burke, Paddy.
  • Calnan, Michael.
  • Cashin, Bill.
  • Cotter, Bill.
  • Cregan, Denis (Dino).
  • Daly, Brendan.
  • Doyle, Joe.
  • Enright, Thomas W.
  • Farrelly, John V.
  • Gallagher, Ann.
  • Hayes, Brian.
  • Howard, Michael.
  • Kelly, Mary.
  • McAughtry, Sam.
  • McDonagh, Jarlath.
  • Magner, Pat.
  • Maloney, Seán.
  • Manning, Maurice.
  • Neville, Daniel.
  • O'Sullivan, Jan.
  • Reynolds, Gerry.
  • Sherlock, Joe.
  • Taylor-Quinn, Madeleine.
  • Townsend, Jim.

Níl

  • Bohan, Eddie.
  • Byrne, Seán.
  • Daly, Brendan.
  • Dardis, John.
  • Fahey, Frank.
  • Farrell, Willie.
  • Finneran, Michael.
  • Fitzgerald, Tom.
  • Kelleher, Billy.
  • Kiely, Dan.
  • Kiely, Rory.
  • Lanigan, Mick.
  • Lydon, Don.
  • McGennis, Marian.
  • McGowan, Paddy.
  • Mullooly, Brian.
  • O'Brien, Francis.
  • O'Kennedy, Michael.
  • O'Toole, Joe.
  • Ormonde, Ann.
  • Roche, Dick.
  • Wright, G.V.
Tellers: Tá, Senators Burke and Magner; Níl, Senators Fitzgerald and Ormonde.
Amendment declared carried.
Motion, as amended, put and declared carried.

When is it proposed to sit again?

At 10.30 a.m. tomorrow.

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