Today's Order of Business is items 1 and 2. Second Stage of item 1 will be taken from now until 1 o'clock. By agreement, there will be 20 minutes per speaker. There will be a sos from 1 p.m. to 2 p.m. Item 2 will be taken from 2 o'clock until 5 o'clock.
Order of Business.
Is it intended to deal with item 2, including amendments, in three hours?
Yes.
I welcome the Russian delegation and hope they benefit from their visit to Ireland. In the last ten days major announcements have been made by the Government concerning radical changes in the Department of Justice as to how justice is administered. The establishment of a courts commission and a prison authority has been announced. Many Senators have strong views on the announcements and have a major input to make before either of these two major changes are implemented. Will the Leader afford the House an opportunity to debate both the announcements as well as changes within the Department of Justice?
I join in welcoming our Russian guests and hope they enjoy their stay. I hope they have not brought their weather with them but it appears that they may have done so.
I support Senator Wright's call for a debate on the issue of justice. I know we will debate the Criminal Justice (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill, 1996, today but what I have in mind is a more wide ranging debate.
On several occasions the Leader has indicated to us that he would be prepared to have a debate on monetary union and European integration. When can we expect to have such a debate? Has the Leader any up to date information on when we might expect to debate the Credit Union Bill?
Will the Leader pass on the wishes of so many of us, that our negotiators will ask the Unionists to think again on their policy of IRA arms decommissioning before allowing Sinn Féin into talks? Anyone with any military experience will appreciate that the Unionists are asking for unconditional surrender. These are the terms that were asked of Nazi Germany in World War II. As a consequence of that decision, as our honoured Russians guests will know, hundreds of thousands of lives were needlessly lost and Nazi Germany was reduced to rubble. Such thinking asks an army to show a white flag. Decommissioning has a place on the agenda but top of the agenda is conflict resolution between the 15 per cent of Northern people who voted for Sinn Féin and the rest of Ireland.
The first item the Leader announced was Second Stage of the Bill to amend the law relating to criminal proceedings in the District Court and the other courts and to enable the Minister to make rules for the regulation and good government of prisons. How does the Minister for Justice have such a function in light of the announcement by the Taoiseach last week that he proposes to appoint an independent non-statutory board to take responsibility for the administration of the courts and the prison system? The Government has already decided to take responsibility from the Minister for these two important functions.
An Leas-Chathaoirleach
Those points could be made during the Second Stage debate.
They could not. The Minister has no function in this regard. She is not empowered to deal with this matter because the Taoiseach stripped her of her responsibilities for the administration of the courts and prison service. She cannot take this Bill today because a week ago the Taoiseach announced she was no longer responsible for this area. I ask the Leader not to take Second Stage of this Bill until we know who is answerable to this House. Otherwise, the confusion which already exists will be greater.
On 18 November the Minister for Equality and Law Reform, Deputy Taylor, launched the report of the Commission on the Status of People with Disabilities. We have waited a long time for this report. In view of its importance, I ask the Leader to arrange time for a debate as soon as possible.
I ask the Leader if the Minister for Transport, Energy and Communications has any plans to settle the dispute with CIE. The workers are entitled to the last phase of the Programme for Competitiveness and Work, which is 2.5 per cent. I cannot understand why CIE will not pay those people their entitlements. This has happened many times in the past when strike notice was served but CIE did nothing about it. It seems the county will be brought to a standstill coming up to Christmas. The city was gridlocked last Tuesday. Nobody is talking to the workers although CIE will probably talk to them during Christmas week. This problem must be solved because it is causing hardship for business people in Dublin. It seems that CIE is incapable of running a transport system. If it cannot do it, it should be handed over to a company which can. The Minister should instruct CIE to talk to the workers and pay them their entitlements.
I support the point made by Senator McAughtry. We all know it is important to try to understand the other side's view and to reach a compromise. The Mitchell recommendations on decommissioning offer that type of approach to resolve the conflict. It is important that we speak out to ensure the extreme view does not prevail and that some attempt is made to reach a compromise and understand the other point of view. Senator McAughtry made that point and we should support him.
I strongly support the points made by my colleagues Senator Wright and Senator O'Kennedy on the Order of Business. We have not been involved in the controversy over the delisting of a judge from the Special Criminal Court. The Leader of the House will agree that we on this side of the House have supported much of the Government's legislation in the law and order area where it has been worthy of support.
I put it to the Leader that it would be an insult to the House and a farce if we were to discuss and debate legislation which will be, in effect, made redundant by a Government decision. The Taoiseach made it clear in the Dáil that, when legislation was passed, the Minister for Justice will only be in charge of policy matters regarding prisons and courts and not administration. This Bill before us involves detailed administration of the courts and the prisons. Section 18 specifically grants the power to make prison rules. I understand the Leas-Chathaoirleach might be inclined to say that this is a matter for the debate but it is not. This is a matter for order in this House. I hope the Minister is not trying to hoodwink us or pull the wool over our eyes by having this Bill passed today and then doing something else at another level. This Bill must not and should not be discussed today. If the Minister and the other side of the House try to force this, it will make a mockery of this House.
I do not understand the argument the Opposition makes about the Bill. If procedures in the courts and court system are to be changed, it will be necessary to bring in legislation. It will always be necessary to bring such changes to the Houses of the Oireachtas regardless of what bodies are in charge of our courts system.
Like my colleagues, I wish to complain about the Bill before us. Some of it is relevant and necessary but large sections are controversial. The Government's decision to change the governing and regulation of the prisons is a fundamental one which affects this legislation. It is difficult for us to debate this issue when we do not know what will be the Government position. This Bill should be withdrawn.
During the summer, the Minister for the Marine announced he had decided to award the contract for the west coast search and rescue service to a new company. There is now considerable doubt as to whether the company will be able to provide, from the end of this year, the adequate service we had under the old arrangement. Will the Leader ask the Minister for the Marine to clarify the situation as we do not wish to see the service downgraded?
I welcome the Russian delegation, especially the Russian Ambassador who has been a good friend to us in Shannon and has helped us develop business through the airport and trade generally.
I ask the Leader of the House to arrange a debate on prisons. I was at the concert last night in Mountjoy Prison. There is something wrong with a system when brilliant people such as those who, within three weeks, put on that show are behind bars. We need to discuss why these people are in prison. Judging by their appearance and the way they spoke and performed, they should not be there. Many of them are professional actors and it is a pity that their professionalism is not channelled in a profitable way.
Exit stage left.
It is time there was a system whereby they could be rehabilitated rather than taking up places in Mountjoy.
I support Senator Bohan in calling on CIE to do something about strikes. CIE management seems to have a habit of frustrating its workers every Christmas and at peak periods. It should not plunge this country into crisis at Christmas. People have enough problems without trying to drive into town. This is an emergency and CIE should solve the problem.
Will the Criminal Justice (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill, 1996, deal effectively with incidents such as the one that occurred last week? The Garda Síochána hired a coach at substantial expense to bring ten prisoners to Mountjoy Prison. Seven gardaí accompained them. The Governor of the prison had to put beds in the corridor for the prisoners. In the morning he said there was no room for them and gave each of them a voucher to take public transport home. They were at home before the gardaí who escorted them to the prison. It seems farcical. Some of the ten prisoners were charged with breaking and entering. Is this Bill a cosmetic exercise or will it deal effectively with the problem? Nobody believes the system works. Will this Bill have any influence? Will it deal with the problem of crime on the ground?
The Senator can read it as well as I.
Yes I can, but, as we see it, the Bill will not deal with the problem.
I also welcome the Russian Ambassador and his delegation to the House. I agree with Senator Bohan as regards the 2.5 per cent of the programme for Competitiveness and Work for CIE. Will the Leader tell the Minister for Transport, Energy and Communications that we cannot break agreements with workers? Business people depend on trade at certain times of the year and we are now approaching one of those times. City centre trade must be supported and we must not allow revenue the Government is depending on to be lost because a section of a semi-State or State operation is not being run successfully. The Minister has not been shy in taking steps in the past and he should do so now. This area should be examined immediately.
Last week we asked for a copy of the proposed Luas lines in the city centre. I am the transport, energy and communications spokesperson for the largest Opposition party and I still have not received this. Is there a reason for not allowing this side of the House to have a copy? I understand it was available to the Government side of the House. Will the Leader ensure that this side of the House receives a copy of that and the traffic control systems?
Will the Leader of the House impress on the Minister for Arts, Culture and the Gaeltacht the importance of providing grant funding to groups providing Irish language programmes and courses outside Gaeltacht areas? There are many deontaisí and grants for people who promote the Irish language in Gaeltacht areas. With the advent of Teilifís na Gaeilge there is more emphasis than ever on the promotion of our language. Ach taobh amuigh den Ghaeltacht níl aon chabhair nó deontaisí le fáil ag grúpanna nó ag daoine atá ag plé le cursaí Gaeilge. The Minister should examine the situation and make funds available to groups in various parishes outside Gaeltacht areas. There would be more activity in such programmes and accordingly our language would be promoted more strongly outside the Gaeltacht. Will the Leader of the House ask the Minister and my colleague in the Galway constituency, Deputy Higgins, to consider promoting the Irish language outside Gaeltacht areas by the provision of deontaisí for groups promoting the Irish language through adult education programmes?
Galway got all the money this year.
I join Members in extending a welcome to the delegation from the Duma and to the Russian Ambassador.
I share Senator Bohan's concern. The Minister for Transport, Energy and Communications, Deputy Lowry, shares my view that the action of CIE management with regard to the final payment of the Programme for Competitiveness and Work is inexplicable. The management has an obligation to ensure that any action on its part will not exacerbate the problem. It does not have a good reputation in that regard and I hope wiser counsel will prevail. Its current position is outrageous.
I wish to address the point made by Senator O'Kennedy and it is not my intention to be flippant. There are lawyers and we must listen to the advice they give us. This House is not the Four Courts and most of us are not lawyers. I understand Senator O'Kennedy's point in so far as I understand the jargon contained in Bills that come before the House.
It is in the first paragraph.
It is not jargon.
The Senator knows as well as every Member of the House, that one must have interpreters to go through legislation.
This is black and white.
As a lay person I will be interested to hear Senator O'Kennedy or Senator Mulcahy make their points to the Minister for Justice. It will be most illuminating. If the Senator's point is a serious one, I cannot understand why it cannot be put during the first minutes of the debate.
The Minister is not the person with responsibility.
Let us find that out.
It is simple language.
An Leas-Chathaoirleach
Members are only allowed to contribute once on the Order of Business.
I join Senators in welcoming our Russian visitors. I had the honour, with Senator Bohan, to be in Russia during the last presidential elections and I will shortly report to the Seanad on many of the innovative and constructive ways in which the Russians do their business. We can learn much from their form of parliamentary democracy.
Will the Leader of the House put the following issue to the Minister for Justice? In the last number of months there has been growing concern about the number of lethal knives available in society, particularly among young people. There was an incident in Nenagh two weeks ago in which somebody was stabbed. These knives are on sale at relatively cheap cost. A sum of about £4 will secure a lethal knife. A campaign has been launched——
I do not wish to minimise the issue but the knife used in that incident was a bread knife.
——to bin the blade. The Government should look at this campaign and see if there are means through which we can eradicate lethal knives from our society.
On the Bill that is before us today, like Senator Magner I am a lay person compared to some Senators who give the impression that no Bill should be introduced and that there should be no regulations. Sections of this Bill extend periods of remand in custody and the Opposition had no objection to that. Are they now saying it should not come before the House?
Senator Mulcahy made a good point on the entitlement of the Bill. He said that Senator O'Kennedy was right to say that the Minister for Justice had no right to come before the House with this Bill. If so and if he agrees that the Minister is entitled to introduce policy relevant to courts and prisons, is it now the case that we agree to the provisions of this Bill "to make provision for the affixing of a seal to orders ... to enable the Minister for Justice to make rules for the regulation and good government of prisons, and to provide for related matters"?
Which she is not.
That is a policy matter.
And good Government——
Senator O'Kennedy is heckling.
An Leas-Chathaoirleach
I cannot allow a debate on the contents of the Bill now. These questions have been raised with the Leader of the House and I am sure he will reply to them. I want to try to avoid a debate.
I do not wish to be the Leader but some Senators are under the impression they are leading, which is worrying. The best way to discuss this is when the Minister is in the House.
The poor Minister; there is no responsibility.
That is how it should be done. Senators are objecting to a Bill that is being introduced and examples of this are seen in the press. We are introducing very good law and we should be left to get on with it.
This is a crossroads.
People should not say one thing and mean another. We should have a debate on local government and local charges. Members of other parties are discussing what we should do on this. Is it proper to have a debate on local government costings before the Estimates are considered by the Cabinet?
Questions should be put directly to the management of CIE by the Minister for Transport, Energy and Communications. The workers are not getting the money to which they are entitled because of a change in policy. It is only right that the Minister should say if this is so.
I ask the Leader if it will be possible to have a debate soon on the first interim report of the Joint Committee on Small Businesses and Services which was presented last week? The National Economic and Social Forum also presented a report to the two Houses recently. The Leader might give us an opportunity to discuss that also.
On the Order of Business, we are back with the same old story of "somebody stole my sweets and I am awfully annoyed about that"——
The Senator is not on the Front Bench.
——and yesterday in the other House the same party wanted to change the regulations to get back their sweets.
When someone makes a substantial point the Senator can do better than that.
The logic of this argument is incredible. The Minister for Justice will always have responsibility for bringing legislation before the House and that is what she is doing.
Check with the Taoiseach.
All this huffing and puffing should stop. I am surprised a gentleman with the experience of Senator O'Kennedy should speak in those silly terms——
An Leas-Chathaoirleach
The Senator has made his point.
In the context of Senator Magner's call yesterday, Senators should be gentle to each other.
It is hard to be gentle in the face of this illogical argument but I hope we will be able to do as Senator Magner said and have a sensible argument.
I also welcome the Russian delegation and the Russian Ambassador. Senator Wright asked for a debate on the developments in the Department of Justice and I would be happy to accede to that. We will discuss the details later but I will do it as soon as possible.
Senator Dardis echoed Senator Quinn's request for a debate on currency and the European Monetary Union. That debate is confirmed for 4 December 1996 but it will not conclude on that day. The Senator will understand that I have not has a chance to get an update on the Credit Union Bill but my information is that it is on course.
Senator McAughtry was supported by Senator O'Sullivan in his plea to the Unionists to reconsider their policy on decommissioning and to work within the framework of the Mitchell principles. I also support this call. Senator O'Kennedy raised a point which gathered stream as the morning wore on. I would like to remind the Senator that the Order of Business was conveyed to Members last week. Nothing has changed since then.
This House works on the basis of courtesy and co-operation. As Leader I would have expected that if there were real and substantial difficulties I would have been informed in good time so I could see for myself if there was a problem and make other arrangements if necessary.
It is not my function to adjudicate on the content of Bills. That is a matter for the House. The House achieves this by deliberation, listening to the Minister and putting questions and if at the end of all that the Opposition or other Members are not happy, they have procedures open to them. This is democracy. The procedure is called a vote. I have no intention of changing the Order of Business. If we are beaten in the vote so be it. If the Seanad has to adjourn because the Opposition at this late stage introduced this objection, which is not substantiated, then so be it. The Opposition can take responsibility for frustrating the work of Seanad Éireann. I think better sense will prevail and I appeal to Senator Dardis in particular, whose party believes in a rational approach, to accept that the place to debate this is within this House. If there are problems we will talk about them and the Minister is here to reply. This type of pre-emptive strike serves nobody's purpose.
Senator Sherlock asked for a debate on the status of people with disability and I would welcome such a debate and will make time available. Senator Bohan talked good sense on CIE as did other Senators. I will convey his views to the Minister. The House spoke with one voice on this issue.
Senator Mulcahy made the same points as Senator O'Kennedy. Senator Daly raised the question of the west coast. If the Senator does not succeed in raising this on the Adjournment I will make time available or find out some details for him.
I do not have the information on the Luas lines requested by Senator Cassidy but I will try to find out for him. We all look forward to Senator Hayes' report on parliamentary reform in the Soviet Union and a debate on the use of knives as weapons would be useful.
An Leas-Chathaoirleach
Is the Order of Business agreed?
I have to know arising from what——
An Leas-Chathaoirleach
The Senator is breaking the rules of the House.
I appreciate that but I want to convey to the Leader——
An Leas-Chathaoirleach
I am sorry, Senator, but I must put the question.
Question put: "That the Order of Business be items 1 and 2 and the contribution of each Senator on Second Stage of item 1 not to exceed 20 minutes; business to be interrupted from 1 p.m. to 2 p.m. and the debate on item 2 to be interrupted not later than 5 p.m."
The Seanad divided: Tá, 25; Níl, 15.
Tá
- Belton, Louis J.
- Cashin, Bill.
- Cosgrave, Liam.
- Cotter, Bill.
- Cregan, Denis (Dino).
- D'Arcy, Michael.
- Gallagher, Ann.
- Hayes, Brian.
- Howard, Michael.
- Kelly, Mary.
- Lee, Joe.
- McAughtry, Sam.
- McDonagh, Jarlath.
- Magner, Pat.
- Maloney, Seán.
- Manning, Maurice.
- Neville, Daniel.
- O'Sullivan, Jan.
- Quinn, Feargal.
- Reynolds, Gerry.
- Ross, Shane P.N.
- Sherlock, Joe.
- Taylor-Quinn, Madeleine.
- Townsend, Jim.
- Wall, Jack.
Níl
- Bohan, Eddie.
- Cassidy, Donie.
- Daly, Brendan.
- Dardis, John.
- Farrell, Willie.
- Fitzgerald, Tom.
- Kiely, Dan.
- Kiely, Rory.
- McGennis, Marian.
- McGowan, Paddy.
- Mooney, Paschal.
- Mulcahy, Michael.
- O'Kennedy, Michael.
- Ormonde, Ann.
- Wright, G.V.
Tellers: Tá, Senators Cosgrave and Magner; Níl, Senators Fitzgerald and Ormonde.
Question declared carried.