Seanad Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 27 Nov 1996

Vol. 149 No. 10

Order of Business.

Mr. Manning

Today's Order of Business is items 1,2,3,4,5,6 and 7. Items 1,2,3 and 4 will be taken from the end of the Order of Business to conclude by 12 noon. The four motions may be debated together.

Item 5 — Election of Cathaoirleach — will take place at 12 o'clock. Under Standing Order 4 — Election of Cathaoirleach — the Chair will be taken by Senator McGowan, who has the longest continuous period of service in the Seanad. If a question must be put to bring the debate to a conclusion, the Chair will be vacated and the Clerk will make a decision and declare the result.

Item 6 will be taken from 2 p.m. to 6 p.m. However, if the election of Cathaoirleach has not concluded by 2 p.m. the debate will continue until it concludes and item 6 will then be taken. Item 7 will be taken from 6 p.m. to 8 p.m.

Mr. Wright

I thank the Leader for outlining the procedure for the election of Cathaoirleach. Will there be a sos if that business is concluded?

Mr. Manning

Yes.

Mr. Wright

On several occasions the Leader has stated his willingness to introduce the Credit Union Bill in this House. I ask him for the up-to-date position on that Bill.

Mr. O'Toole

I am grateful to the Leader for outlining the procedure for the election of Cathaoirleach. If there is an equality of votes, I suggest that the House should adjourn for a half an hour and then deal with the matter again. Parliamentary precedents dictate that issues which cannot be resolved should be taken again——

Mr. Norris

In that event I will make myself available to the nation.

Mr. O'Toole

——rather than engaging in wrangles.

Mr. O'Kennedy

With that threat of intimidation by Senator Norris, we had better reach a conclusion.

Mr. O'Toole

I hope the Labour Party survives its difficult Private Members' time this evening. Much as we appreciate the opportunity to discuss Zairean matters, which are important, and while it is prudent to be cautious, caution can be overdone and a little risk keeps everybody on their toes.

Mr. Finneran

There is no need for that.

Mr. Dardis

Pondering Senator Norris' kind offer to the House, one can envision him restraining himself admirably in the Chair——

Mr. Norris

I would restrain the Senator.

Mr. O'Toole

He has never restrained himself before.

Mr. Dardis

Perhaps that might be the greatest recommendation as to why he should be in the Chair.

I take this opportunity to welcome back my colleague, Senator Honan. I am some what concerned about the number of matters on the Adjournment. It appears to increase in direct proportion to the proximity of an election. Last week I asked the Leader the same question voiced by Senator Wright regarding the credit union legislation. The Leader indicated that he hoped to have an answer this week.

My other question has been raised on a number of occasions and relates to economic and monetary union, European enlargement and the single currency. Could the Leader indicate when the House will be given an opportunity to discuss that issue?

Mr. O'Kennedy

Will the Leader of the House indicate when it is intended to resume the debate on the Criminal Justice (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill, 1996, which commenced last week? Will he also assure us that when the debate is resumed the House will not be misled as it was during that debate? Last week I raised the issue of the role and responsibility of the Minister for Justice in respect of the prison service and administration of the courts. The House is entitled to have proper order but the Minister of State gave no indication during the debate that he or the Government had changed their position. That fact was deliberately kept from us and it demonstrates contempt for this House.

Perhaps the Minister for Justice had not told the Minister of State about the change. Perhaps nobody in that Government tells anybody about the decisions that are taken. I want an assurance from the Leader of the House——

Mr. Magner

This is a speech.

Mr. O'Kennedy

We raised this matter last week and the Government side sat back and hoped nothing would come of it. This House was deliberately misled and I want to be assured by the Leader that when discussion of the Bill resumes we will not be abused and misled again. The Minister should come before the House and deliver a full statement on what this confused Government plans to do in relation to prisons and courts.

Mr. Farrelly

The Perry Mason of the Seanad.

Mr. Norris

Will the Minister for Justice come to the Seanad to give us an update on the Refugee Bill? I sought such a visit a few weeks ago in the context of a number of Cuban refugees and an Algerian citizen who appear to have been harshly treated in this regard. However, a former Mexican President who is under serious investigation appears to be receiving favourable treatment. We must examine how Carlos Salinas de Gortari is being treated in comparison with the treatment of more vulnerable and less well known refugees.

Would it be possible to have a debate on transport, in light of the impact of the French transport strike on Irish hauliers? We should also discuss the information revealed on the radio this morning where it was shown that everybody involved in the road haulage industry maintains it is impossible to make a profit and obey the law with regard to tachographs. That matter and the large number of road accidents must cause concern, particularly at Christmas. The Seanad met last week in sad conclave to pay tribute to the former Cathaoirleach, Senator Naughten. We must be very careful in considering road transport, especially in light of our recent experience.

I serve notice that when the new Cathaoirleach is elected today I will seek an Adjournment debate on another matter. Many Senators, when paying tribute to Senator Naughten, said the pressures put on public servants were extreme and were a contributory factor in his death. Is the Leader aware that the Chief State Pathologist, Dr. John Harbison, is also under considerable pressure and that in the last few days he was injured in an accident? Will it be possible to raise this on the Adjournment to try to get additional resources so that this valuable civil servant's life is not also placed in jeopardy?

Mr. Townsend

On previous occasions I called on the Leader to organise a debate on the milk quota system; I am surprised other Senators from rural areas are not doing the same. A review of the milk quota system is supposed to take place in the year 2000 when it could even be abolished. While some progressive farmers would like to see it abolished, that would bring financial ruin to many others.

All the indications are that consumers are paying too much for milk. Milk producers are paying 50p a gallon for the privilege of producing it, while milk from Northern Ireland is being retailed more cheaply than milk produced locally. A debate on a serious matter like this, which affects consumers, farmers and factory workers, would be in sharp contrast to some of the matters which are being debated daily in the Lower House.

Mr. McGowan

Will the Leader indicate when we might have a debate on the funding of local authorities? I have continually been asking for such a debate. Most local authorities have by now held their estimates meetings and there are rumours that service charges will be withdrawn. Potential candidates preparing for the next election have indicated privately that service charges will be withdrawn. All of us would welcome that; they should never have been introduced in the first place.

Mr. Farrelly

They should have been abolished by the Senator's Government.

Mr. McGowan

I do not want to get into hostilities. I could give an answer but I will not. The Leader should look at this as an urgent matter. Local authorities deserve that. Senators are also local authority representatives. We have a responsibility to get clarification on this important matter which should be treated more urgently than any other before the House. Local authorities must know where they stand financially. Even if the Minister is not available, we should still be told whether service charges will be withdrawn.

When will we have a debate on the National Roads Authority? When the Leader of the House was in Opposition he called for such a debate several times but a few years have passed and we still have not had one. I know he supports my call. We would not need a Minister in the House when we express our views on this serious matter. I urge the Leader to respond.

Mr. Sherlock

As regards references to the State Pathologist's Office, an office for the Assistant State Pathologist, Dr. Margaret Bolster, should be established in Cork. Will the Leader bear that in mind?

Mr. Norris

A very good idea. I support that.

Mr. Farrell

Will the Leader arrange a debate on press libel cases? Could an ombudsman be appointed to deal with such cases rather than having expensive legal arguments? It is obvious that poor people who are the subject of libel cannot oppose the media. There should be some system whereby these people could avail of the services of an ombudsman or another officer of the State in this regard.

Mr. Norris

What has that to do with the price of dog food?

Mr. Farrell

When first elected to the Seanad I represented the Irish Road Hauliers' Association, many of whose members are feeling the pinch, through no fault of their own, because they are stranded in France. It is time the Minister for Foreign Affairs intervened to help those people. Why should Irish hauliers, who are the lifeblood of industry in Ireland, be affected by an internal feud in France?

On a radio programme this morning, a priest living in Connemara stated that he is involved in the operation of a co-operative. He indicated that drivers working for the co-operative can travel to and from France without breaking the law. However, even using two drivers, it cannot transport goods to Cork without breaking the law. I suggest that the House debate the issue of hauliers who are trying to compete for business and make a living. Perhaps the Department of the Environment could appoint inspectors to travel on haulage trucks to see the situation firsthand. It is easy for bureaucrats in cosy offices to make decisions but they must be made aware of the hardship endured by hauliers in transporting produce.

Ms Honan

Will the Leader ask the Minister for Health to intervene urgently to avert the proposed nurses' strike, which is due to take place early next year? I accept that the Government has done much to meet the demands of nurses but there seems to be a number of outstanding matters which, according to P.J. Madden of the INO, could be solved by the allocation of an additional £5 million. In view of the hardship that will be faced by patients and the public if the health services come to a standstill in the new year, I ask the Minister to intervene as a matter of urgency to resolve this matter.

Mr. Maloney

Will the Leader consider making time available for a debate on Northern Ireland? We avoided this issue before the summer recess and, when all hell broke loose, there was a rush of debates in both Houses. The Seanad rightly shows extreme concern for problems in other countries, whether these involve refugees or otherwise. However, we should not be allowed to forget Irish prisoners in English jails and the conditions they must endure. Mr. Major made a number of statements on Northern Ireland in recent days and this is a worrying time.

This House has had the privilege of hearing the voices of the late Senator Wilson and Senators McAughtry and Haughey in connection with Northern Irish affairs. It is important that the House be made aware of what is occurring in Northern Ireland. If possible, I call for a debate to be held before Christmas on Northern Ireland.

Mr. O'Kennedy

I support Senator Maloney's request.

Mr. Finneran

I support Senator Honan's call for intervention by the Minister for Health in the nurses' dispute. It would be unfortunate if a nurses' strike took place and we must avert fears on the part of members of the public, patients and the families of people in hospital in this regard. While the Minister has gone quite far, he should go one step further and resolve the matter without the need for an industrial dispute. It would be unfortunate if nurses were obliged to picket hospitals after Christmas and I call on the Leader to inform the Minister that he should try to resolve this matter.

I join in the calls for the Government to intervene at EU level, particularly with the French Government, regarding the hauliers' strike in France. The position is of grave importance and is causing great hardship and it will have a major financial impact on Irish exporters to Europe. If we are to be partners in Europe then the free flow of produce must be allowed to take place. This is not happening at the moment. People exporting to France are having their businesses undermined and a Government initiative is necessary.

I join with Senator Maloney in calling for a debate on Northern Ireland. We are all a little worried by the perceived developments, or lack of developments, in the last 12 to 24 hours. I appreciate that the Tánaiste has spoken and has indicated that there is no change. However, people are worried and a constructive debate in this House would be helpful. I know Senators will be responsible as they always have been in the past. Would the Leader consider such a debate if not immediately then sometime before Christmas?

Mr. Magner

I support Senator Sherlock's comments about the division of responsibility between the State pathologist and his deputy. It makes sense that the country be divided to allow for a more efficient service.

I support Senator McGowan's call for a debate on the National Roads Authority but I would include in such a debate some of the comments made by Senator Farrell in relation to trucks. I have some sympathy for the truck drivers. However, these juggernauts pass one out on the Naas Road travelling at 70 and 80 miles per hour. They are massive trucks and there is no hope of stopping quickly in an emergency. They break the law every day.

Mr. O'Toole

That is a ridiculous and unfair comment.

Mr. Farrell

That is a grossly unfair comment.

Mr. Magner

How can it be unfair? Senator O'Toole should not be such a hypocrite. The evidence is there. If one gets behind a truck and breaks the law at 75 miles per hour these trucks can still pass one out. The situation is ridiculous and should be included in any debate on transportation or on the National Roads Authority.

I agree with the sentiments expressed by Senator Finneran. The French always seem to opt in and out of the EU at their convenience. This is a case where the Treaty of Rome is being flouted. The free movement of goods and services is being prohibited and the French fold their arms and do nothing. This is not only causing immense damage economically but, as we saw in this morning's newspapers, drivers are getting involved in fisticuffs. The French simply shrug their shoulders in a Gallic fashion and say "what can we do"?

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

We are not debating the matter now Senator.

Mr. Magner

I would like to debate the matter with Senator O'Toole who seems to drive blindfolded.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

Senator Magner's opinion of Senator O'Toole's driving is not relevant to the Order of Business.

Mr. O'Toole

It was not an opinion of my driving, the Senator made a statement of fact. There are many members of the Garda Síochána who could prove that I do not drive blindfolded.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

Senator Magner's experience of Senator O'Toole's driving is not relevant to the Order of Business.

Mr. Haughey

I support Senator Finneran's and Senator Maloney's call for a debate on Northern Ireland. We are at a very delicate and difficult stage and, while one must always be mindful not to get into a debate which would be unhelpful, if we had a debate and heard the views of the Tánaiste and Minister for Foreign Affairs and those concerned it would be helpful.

I know Senators have talked and read about BSE. However, it is alarming that recent revelations anticipate that in five to ten year's time a large number of people in England will show symptoms of CJD because they have been eating hamburgers since the early 1980s. Salesyards on the northern side of the Border have increased their business threefold in the past three months. In Northern Ireland animals suffering from BSE are reported to have a market value of £3,000 per head for re-import into the Republic illegally; this must be dealt with. Will the Leader ask the Minister to look at this matter? We have laws in this regard. Although the Minister is doing much at present, this serious situation needs attention.

Mr. Farrelly

Will the Leader indicate if we are to have a debate on transport? The Minister for Transport, Energy and Communications should come to the House to discuss the impact of European regulations which prohibit drivers driving after a certain number of hours per day and which will result in hauliers going out of business. Will the Leader convey our thanks to the Minister for Agriculture, Food and Forestry for his efforts in securing the price of beef which has increased by 12p per pound in the past month and a half.

Mr. R. Kiely

The Senator should not cod himself.

Mr. Farrelly

The Minister's efforts have ensured that incomes have increased dramatically, to the annoyance of the Opposition. It would fit some parties better not to spy on particular people, as they informed us at the weekend.

Mr. R. Kiely

I wish to refer to an issue raised on the air waves — the treatment of young people by bouncers at certain venues. Some bouncers are taking the law into their own hands. Senator Farrelly was to raise the issue with the Minister for Justice. What progress has he made in this regard? Did he arrange a meeting with the Minister for Justice as easily as he got through to the radio station? It is disturbing, particularly for country people coming to Dublin, to see bouncers take the law into their own hands and almost beat people to death.

Mr. Daly

I support Senator Finneran's request for Government action on the threatened nurses dispute which will lead to chaos in hospitals and institutions. Thousands of people awaiting serious medical treatment will be further delayed. It is unacceptable that the Minister for Health is not taking action to deal with this developing crisis. Will the Leader arrange for the Minister to come to the House to outline the state of play in relation to the dispute between the Department and the nursing profession and what action he proposes to take to avert a crisis?

I support Senator McGowan's call for a debate on local charges and the need for the Minister for the Environment to clarify the situation. New rates have been struck in some towns for the coming year. There has been an increase of approximately 45 per cent in Ennis which puts severe pressure on commercial people who are funding local authorities to an ever-increasing level. This matter should be dealt with urgently but the Minister for the Environment is not doing so, if anything he is avoiding the matter. Will the Leader ask the Minister to clarify what he proposes to do about local funding?

Mr. Manning

I join with Senator Dardis in welcoming Senator Honan back to the House. We missed her and are glad to see her back.

Senator Wright asked about the Credit Union Bill about which I hope to have precise information today or tomorrow.

Senator O'Toole asked what would happen in the event of an equality of votes in the election of a new Cathaoirleach. He raised this issue with me before and I now have the information. Although it is the item after next on the Order of Business, I will answer it now. A vote is taken separately on each candidate if there is a contest so there would be no equality between the two candidates. If there is an equality of votes on the first vote, the Clerk will then decide the issue in the negative. She does not have freedom of action in the matter. A vote then takes place on the second candidate. If there is an equality, a decision is again taken in the negative by the Clerk. That is the procedure and I trust it clarifies the matter.

Senator Dardis asked about the debate on economic and monetary union which will be on Wednesday, 4 December.

I do not have the resumption date for the Criminal Justice (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill, 1996, about which Senator O'Kennedy asked but I expect it to resume within two weeks.

Senator Norris asked about the Refugee Bill, 1996. I have detailed information from the Minister for Foreign Affairs about its implementation which I will make available to anyone who wants it.

A number of people raised the issue of transport. I have no difficulty with a debate on transport in the near future. I do not think the Government can do much by intervening to resolve the French dispute which is bitter and nasty. It is possible that outside intervention, apart from being ineffectual, might make things worse. I was heartened to hear Irish officials in the Embassy in Paris being praised for the help they are giving to people who are caught up in a quarrel which is not of their making, which is doing terrible harm to Irish industry and which is a disgrace to the way the French carry out their public business. It is sad that the innocent people are affected but I was pleased to hear the Embassy staff praised for its efforts.

Senator Townsend asked for a milk quota debate. Item 12 on today's Order Paper will be taken shortly and should provide plenty of opportunity for Senator Townsend and others to ask questions.

Senator McGowan asked for a debate on local authority funding. That will take place and I will try to have a date for him today. I expect it to take place within two to three weeks and before the Christmas recess. His request for a discussion on the National Roads Authority would come under a transport debate.

On the question of libel and the Ombudsman, I have no difficulty with a debate on the libel laws if Senator Farrell is concerned about them.

Senator Honan and a number of other Senators raised the issue of the threatened nurses' dispute. It is a matter of the utmost gravity and I am sure everything is being done to resolve the matter.

Senator Maloney, Senator Haughey and others asked for a debate on Northern Ireland. I have no difficulty with that debate taking place between now and the end of this session and I will see if it can be organised.

Senator Haughey raised the issue of BSE and I will convey what he said to the Minister for Agriculture, Food and Forestry as it has very serious implications.

Senator Norris, Senator Magner and Senator Sherlock raised the issue of the State pathologist. The suggestion made is sensible and I will see if it can be passed on.

Senator Rory Kiely and Senator Farrelly mentioned the behaviour of bouncers. That is a cause for concern. It is an issue we could discuss and I will make time available.

Order of Business agreed to.