Today's business is items 1 and 2. Item 1 will be taken until 1 p.m. There will be a sos from 1 p.m. to 2 p.m. Item 2 will be taken from 2 p.m. to 5 p.m. I suggest 20 minutes per speaker on item 2.
Order of Business.
The Order of Business is agreed. I thank the Leader for circulating a provisional document on proposed legislation between now and Easter. It is a good idea that we can see ahead even though there may be changes to that schedule.
Would the Leader give us an idea of the debates he intends to arrange between now and Easter? I hope we will have a debate on fishing, safety at sea and the Naval Service.
The House should note that a 23 year old, working class man from Peterborough was shot in the back last night in a cowardly act which has brought shame on all of us and those we represent. This man came from a city which for generations has welcomed Irish people looking for work and who have participated in that city's football and social life. The maiming of a woman in this incident should also be noted as it marks another new low in our history. Would the Leader consider allowing time for brief statements on this matter today? I do not want to interfere with the business of the House but some response is required. The people I met last night and this morning no longer have words to describe their feelings about this, they just say "Who is running the show and how are we to deal with this?" We need to show the public that their elected representatives cannot tolerate this level of outrage and the cowardly approach of those who are, supposedly, acting in our names.
This morning's newspapers carried articles relating to the Buckley report on the salaries of Members of the Houses of the Oireachtas, among others. I have not seen this report and I do not know if it has yet been published. There is a responsibility on this House to have a public debate on that report. For too long the questions of the salaries, allowances and expenses of political representatives have been brushed under the carpet as if there is something to be ashamed of. As someone who works outside politics and is involved in running an organisation, it is time that we put in context the appallingly low level of reward for those who make a full time career of democracy at the highest level. We have a duty to have an open debate on this even if it elicits criticism from the media. It is OK for people like me who have two sources of income, but I want to take on those who criticise me for having double salaries. I also want to say that there are those in both Houses who commit themselves to full time public representation yet cannot send their children to college and have the normal rewards of life which they should expect. This is appalling, untenable and unacceptable.
It is essential that we register our strongest possible condemnation of what took place yesterday in Northern Ireland and to extend our sympathy to the family of bombardier Stephen Restorick. In this morning's newspapers Mr. Adams said that everyone must redouble their efforts to build the peace process. Once again we have the ultimate cynicism from Sinn Féin and it is essential to state that we, as democrats, know only one way to solve problems and that is through the democratic process and not the point of a gun. It is not acceptable for Mr. Adams to tell us that it is up to everyone else when he knows that it is within his power and the power of the IRA to advance the peace process and the only way that can be done is not through the point of a gun or with a bomb. On several occasions in this House within the past couple of years we have hoped when we have condemned other incidents of this nature that they would be the last. Once again we hope that this will be the last and there will be the route to peace which an end to shootings and bombings can bring us.
The other thing which must be said clearly is that the time for the Government to have an open door to Sinn Féin is over if they conduct themselves like this.
I, too, like the other speakers, join in the condemnation of the senseless and brutal killing of a young lad, albeit dressed in khaki, who was, as the Minister for Social Welfare said this morning, a mere boy. Like Senator Dardis, I canvassed in County Donegal in the by-election on one side of the street and Mr. Gerry Adams was canvassing on the other side of the street. As was said this morning, you cannot be half a democrat, you are either in this system or you are not. He was not saying to the electors in County Donegal "If you do not vote for us, something is going to happen to you" or "If you object to us, somebody might shoot you from a distance", he was saying "Vote for us and be free to vote against us" because that is the system in this country. We thought the idea of the armalite and the ballot box was gone from the island but it is obviously alive and well. The stature which Mr. Adams attained was due mostly to the belief that he had control over, or at least a major say with, the armed wing. If he does not have that sort of control, his influence is questionable. It raises very serious questions despite all the work done by both the Irish and British Governments. It is very sad and, like the other speakers, I, too, convey my condolences to the young man's parents and colleagues.
In relation to the other matter which was raised by Senator O'Toole, we have had many debates on low wage jobs and let us put on record that this is a low wage job.
Hear, hear.
Whether you are at it full-time or part-time, the reality is that it is a low-wage job. It is disgraceful that the recommendation made by this committee was so derisory. It obviously did not listen. One point of which Senator O'Toole might be aware made across the table at those discussions, at which I was present, was "What do you think the public's reaction might be?" to which I replied "Your job was to make an objective assessment of the case, find accordingly and then it becomes a matter for the public, the Government and the Oireachtas, but it is not your job to prejudge the public's attitude". It seems to me that it was a cowardly report, I agree it is time it was debated and it should be debated in this House.
The last thing to which I want to bring the Leader's attention is the Irish Life scenario, where it is almost the stuff of 1913 when you lock people out. In this day and age that sort of conduct should have no part to play in our industrial relations landscape. As the Government still possesses a golden share — it does not have any direct responsibility for Irish Life — I hope it is noted that this House does not agree with the sort of tactics employed by the company in relation to its staff.
We all agree a cowardly act was committed in the North last night and everybody should condemn it. It just shows that a coward takes the cowardly way out and anybody in this House would join in the condemnation.
On the issue of our salaries, we should wait and see the contents of the report. I just read The Irish Press this morning——
Old tricks die hard.
The truth is still in the news. It was a report in the Irish Independent of a report in The Irish Times, so I would like to wait until we see what that report contains.
One of the reasons Senator O'Toole is able to hold down two jobs is he lives in Dublin. Anybody who lives down the country and tries to hold down a job there and still be in this House is a failure and no rural business person could keep his business going and be in this House. I must say this much against myself: if I had stayed at home in 1977 instead of coming in here, my business would be thriving. Unfortunately, I need to be here now and I intend to try to stay here too. I ask the Leader for a comprehensive debate on that report when it is made public?
There was a most disturbing report in the Irish Independent this morning about Ms Róisín McAliskey, a young girl who is being held pending her possible extradition to Germany. I want the Leader to raise this with the Taoiseach. She has been told that if she has her baby, she will have to have it in handcuffs and she will not be able to care for it afterwards. I will not say that is medieval, but if the report is true it is an atrocious human rights attack on that girl. If she were in this jurisdiction, she could not be extradited to Germany. There is a probability she is not guilt——
I would ask you, Senator, to put a question to the Leader.
——but she is being extradited to Germany to face charges. In the circumstances we should not leave it be and allow anybody to be incarcerated in handcuffs during the birth of their baby. The strongest pressure should be put on the British Government in this instance to ensure such human rights violations do not take place. The British are always shouting about human rights violations. If that report in this morning's Irish Independent is true, that is the vilest of human rights violations. I ask the Leader to ask the Government to act on the report if it is true?
I want to say a few words about the death of a British soldier. I do not agree completely with all my colleagues about the virtues of having a debate on this here. This is the sort of tragedy to which we have become used and, to be honest, I am sick and tired of the Seanad, the Dáil and politicians elsewhere going through ritual condemnations in order to somehow alleviate their own consciences and disassociate themselves from such acts. It is not enough. It is very easy when something like this happens to come in here and say we want another few minutes of condemnation so that the world can see we do not associate ourselves with that. There is more to it than that. It is time that we recognised the truth, that is, that we cannot have Ministers continually coming in here disassociating themselves from each atrocity and going back and sending their civil servants out to talk to those who associate with the murderers.
I would be happy to have several minutes of debate in this House today if a Minister were to come in here with a little more than that to tell us what the Government intended to do about it apart from issuing hollow words. The reality is that the so-called peace process is over; everybody knows that but nobody will say it.
Senator, I would ask you to put a question to the Leader?
I ask the Leader to go to a Minister or, preferably, the Taoiseach and ask them to come in here and tell us what the Government intends to do about this and if it intends to continue to talk to those people who support or connive with others to commit this sort of murder.
I support my colleague, Senator O'Toole, in asking that a brief period of time be made available to make statements on this matter. It is very important that we signal our feelings to the so-called Republican minorities in south Armagh, Belfast and Derry because there is a sign in Crossmaglen, County Armagh, which states "Sniper at Work" and I would like to ask the people of that area are they proud of that sign today and has anybody the courage to take it down and tell the IRA exactly what they think.
I was one of those who voted consistently against the renewal of section 31 of the Broadcasting Act, 1970, and I maintain that position; but I wonder why Mr. Gerry Adams was not filleted on the radio today. He was squawking in the newspapers within the past couple of days that he was held up for ten minutes at an army checkpoint crossing the Border. As a citizen of this country my heart goes out to Mr. Adams for that appalling inconvenience but it should be placed on the scales against the cowardly murder of someone who was scarcely more than a boy. Under the rules of hospitality we were responsible for him and his welfare is our concern. A vote for Sinn Féin is a vote for the people who committed this atrocity against the people of the entire island. I would like Mr. John Hume to say——
A question for the leader please, Senator.
——that this marks a conclusive end to any notion of an election pact with the people who are complicit in this crime, which includes Sinn Féin.
I strongly support the call by my colleague, Senator O'Toole, for a debate and if we have one, let us concentrate on this issue. I agree with Senator Lanigan about the violation of anyone's human rights but today was not the day to push that issue because it looks too much like the classic green balancing act for my liking.
I congratulate Senator O'Toole and Senator Magner for having the courage to raise the issue of the pay and conditions of public representatives. We are in an appalling position. This building is closed from Friday to Monday, we do not have access to our offices and reports of important committees are not published because of financial constraints; we are basically the mucky boys of faceless officials in the Department of Finance.
The media have a responsibility in this regard; not the mainstream media by and large but the tabloid press who continually lie through their teeth about what happens here. For example, colleagues, friends and people I work with constantly tell me that Members have a subsidised bar and drink at the taxpayers' expense. I investigated this; we have good facilities for ourselves and the public and thank goodness for the committee under Senator Magner which achieved that. However, not only is the Dáil bar not subsidised — we pay exactly the same price for drink bought there — we subsidise the Government by handing back £40,000 in tax to the Exchequer every year. I want these tabloid newspapers to print that fact, because they do not always care for the truth.
Senator, have you a question for the Leader?
My question for the Leader is more or less the same as yesterday. Can we put our PR people into action and have a face to face meeting with the reporters? Let us start questioning them. I do not mean the decent people who are here day after day and do a reasonable job, I am talking about the little squirts from the tabloid newspapers. Let us have them in here to give them a piece of our minds.
Meet them in the bar.
Stand them a drink.
When I was chairman of the Peace Train organisation and at other times I spent many hours trying to get into the minds of the people who run the IRA. Senators might engage in this occupation also and they will come up with startling conclusions, the chief one being that the IRA is badly led both in PR terms and from a military point of view. The whole thrust behind the so-called breaking of the ceasefire was that the IRA would not kill civilians if it could help it but would kill policemen and soldiers. Believe it or not, this is offered as a "half-ceasefire". I would give anything to be able to sit in on the musings of the IRA army council to hear these lame-brained propositions put forward by people who want and beg to be regarded as soldiers. I have tried to follow their soldierly thinking but in any other army they would not last a crack in open warfare against a proper army, because they are badly led. They kill soldiers and policemen, the inference being, as they say to their people in south Armagh, that soldiers and policemen are untermenschen— they do not count, they are not people. That is why those signs are in Armagh.
Senator, please put a question to the Leader.
I hope the good people of south Armagh and Crossmaglen, who are noted for their hospitality and courtesy, will do as Senator Norris suggests — come out into the open and express their complete and utter horror at the IRA's policy of taking the lives of uniformed people which, because it is not taking the lives of people in mufti, it regards as a "half-ceasefire". I ask the Leader to convey my personal regards to those responsible for the peace process here and to ask them not to cut off the signals to Sinn Féin. It is essential to keep those lines open at whatever level.
Some time ago I asked the Seanad for an assurance that any atrocity carried out in Northern Ireland would be treated as though it were carried out in this jurisdiction. Senator Magner immediately replied it would be so regarded because it would be condmned just as strongly. However, I am not talking about condemnation but about public reaction to the killing of a human being on the island of Ireland. I want this jurisdiction and the people in it to react in the same way it would if this man was killed in Meath or Thurles.
I join those condemning that terrible murder. The last speaker is incorrect if he suggests that anyone in this country is not as appalled as people in Northern Ireland. I condemn that murder all the more because I am a member of a republican party which does not accept that the British have any right in Northern Ireland but makes that protest by constitutional and peaceful means. Senator Ross' conclusion is based on the old military and security analysis which has failed. Sinn Féin has a considerable degree of support in Northern Ireland and that cannot be swept under the carpet. If there are to be statements today on this murder, there must also be statements on the peace process. We must also consider the question, if the peace process is over, why?
I join in the condemnation of this terrible, cowardly, inhuman and brutal murder of a young man who was doing his duty. Those of us who heard the other victim on radio this morning will know how courteously this young man had treated the people of the area in carrying out his duties over a number of months. As someone who has travelled to Northern Ireland over many years, I have always been impressed by how courteous the British Army is when stopping people and doing its duty.
I support those condemning the killing of the 23 year old British soldier in Bessbrook. Those who believe Sinn Féin or the IRA have much support have misread the position; if a poll was taken this morning of people North and South, that party would have little support. It is recognised that Sinn Féin, the IRA and all the paramilitaries have inflicted enough on the people of the north of Ireland, meaning the Six Counties and the six southern Border counties. That young man came from the British working class and he should still be attending an education establishment. Most reasonable people know the IRA has turned back the clock.
Our Taoiseach was speaking on the phone to Mr. John Major last week and the Tánaiste left the Seanad last Thursday to have dinner with Sir Patrick Mayhew but that is not enough.
A question for the Leader.
I hope this House will unanimously condemn the killing yesterday of that 23 year old soldier. However, I ask the Leader to go to the Taoiseach and the Tánaiste this morning. It is important now not to let the paramilitaries take the centre ground. There was a glimmer of hope in the negotiations with Gerry Adams and John Hume. I am on the same wavelength as Senator McAughtry — let us hold on, we cannot throw in the towel. The Taoiseach has failed because he stepped back and gave John Major space until after the election.
Does the Senator have a question for the Leader?
More nonsense.
My question is very simple. While we totally condemn the killing, I also condemn the lack of progress being made by this Government in the negotiations to further the peace process.
Will the Leader ascertain from the Minister for Education why there is no section in the Education Bill dealing with adult education? Adult education is the fastest growing sector in education and a great deal of concern has been expressed by bodies such as AEO and the SES on the failure to mention it in the Bill. Perhaps the Minister has another agenda for adult education. If that is the case, the providers would like to know about it.
I join with Senator Lanigan in expressing my horror at the report in today's newspaper on the intentions of the prison authorities in regard to Roisín McAliskey. Every right minded person would be appalled at somebody who has not been convicted having to give birth while handcuffed. I join in the call on the Leader to make a protest to the British Government on this matter. Right thinking people around the world would look very poorly on such a practice.
I am getting tired asking when we will have amending legislation on the treatment of the mentally ill. The legislation under which the mentally ill are cared for is over 50 years old and is in conflict with European legislation. I understand that the contents of a White Paper on this matter have been with the Minister for Health for over 12 months. Surely the Oireachtas is entitled to debate proposed legislation. Will the Leader ask the Minister for Health to bring forward amending legislation which will deal with people who are mentally ill after the year 2000? The current legislation is unfair to those who are being cared for and those who care for them.
Yesterday's debate on the financing of local government ended at 6 p.m. by agreement. However, a significant number of Members on both sides of the House are still anxious to contribute to that debate. Will the Leader initiate a discussion with his colleagues on all sides of the House to reintroduce this debate as there are a number of very important issues which affect the future of local government?
It would be irresponsible of me not to join with my colleagues on all sides of the House in condemning the murder in Bessbrook of a young man from Peterborough. I am grateful to you, a Chathaoirligh, for allowing a great deal of latitude on this important issue. It is important that this House reflects the anger which is widespread throughout the island of Ireland, not just Northern Ireland.
As Senator Neville said, anyone who heard the eyewitness report this morning could not help being moved by the overall attitude of that person who comes, I remind Senator Norris, from the town of which the Senator has been heavily critical. It is unfair on the people of Crossmaglen and south Armagh to tar them with that brush and for there to be a perception that they are all active supporters of militarism.
The message which is coming across to the Leader in the requests to convey the sense of outrage to the relevant Ministers and the Taoiseach, is that it is vital we continue with the peace process. Despite what Senator Ross says, the peace process is still up and running, otherwise there would be no point in us being here. We must continue to believe there is a certain goodness in people and a willingness on all sides to enter into negotiations.
It is impossible to have any solution, as Senator Mulcahy pointed out, if one ignores or excludes a party which has 15 per cent of the vote in a democratic election in Northern Ireland. No matter if one likes, hates or loves that, it is a political reality and one which both Governments acknowledge. They are attempting to bring in Sinn Féin, which is where the process lies. We must not let what happened yesterday obscure many of the underlying problems in Northern Ireland. I had intended——
I ask the Senator to put a question to the Leader.
——this week to ask the Leader for a statement from the Tánaiste and Minister for Foreign Affairs on the outrageous sectarian bigotry we are witnessing every week in Harryville. This is the society out of which that man was killed. There are no monopolies on either side of the sectarian divide. I have not heard of any Unionist politician, with the exception of one or two gestures in the last few weeks by the Leader of the Orange Order, standing outside that church criticising——
I ask the Senator to put a question to the Leader; I have allowed him a certain amount of latitude.
——these thugs and bigots who are allegedly led by a man who was convicted of the murder of a chemist, the father of seven children. He shot him dead in cold blood and has now been released on licence. Will the Leader convey to the Tánaiste and Minister for Foreign Affairs the sense of outrage——
I ask the Senator to conclude.
——that many of us feel about that situation? The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland should withdraw the licence of that man, who is allegedly leading this sectarian attack on people going about their normal business.
I condemn the findings of the review group on Oireachtas Members' pay. An offer was recently made to the nurses. Senator Finneran and I were nurses in the psychiatric service and if we were still working there we would be earning in the region of £26,000. As Senators we earn in the region of £20,000 for working 80 to 90 hours a week. If we were back working in our profession we would earn another £6,000 for working a 39 hour week. It is time we took a good look at the service we deliver in the interests of the people of this country. We should raise a hell of a stink about the findings of that review group.
Like everybody else, I feel that I must condemn the killing of the young soldier in Northern Ireland. However, one must look at the situation in Northern Ireland since the ceasefire. There is no point blaming just the IRA. The British Government and the Unionist politicians must be severely blamed and brought to book for doing absolutely nothing during the ceasefire. At that stage, at least Sinn Féin-IRA came on board. They were prepared to stick with the ceasefire and to enter talks. Mr. Trimble and company made damn sure they never got into those talks. All those people stand condemned this morning for the death of that young lad, not just one group. I condemn the killing unreservedly but we should blame all sides who are responsible for this situation.
On behalf of the House I condemn the brutal murder of a young man doing his duty. All in this House unreservedly condemn the taking away of his life. We send our sympathy to his family and to the authorities in Northern Ireland. On that, there is no ambiguity.
Unlike Senator Ross, I believe that our condemnations are much more than ritual. There is a deep sense of anger among all of us at what has happened. We greatly resent the cowardice of the provisional IRA, who have no mandate, commit the most heinous crimes and who do so allegedly in our name. We disparage the ambiguity, at best, of Sinn Féin, which refuses to give straight answers to straight questions and which is ambivalent in its approach to the peace process.
I regret that Senator McGowan chose, in a mean spirited way, to turn a tragedy into a party political issue and to attempt to get cheap capital out of that. It did him no good and it does the House no good. He is the only Senator of any party who has chosen to take this line and I regret it.
I agree with the suggestion by Senator O'Toole that we should make formal statements today. With the permission of the House I propose that the Order of Business be amended to include statements from 1 p.m. to 1.15 p.m. and that the sos now be from 1.15 p.m. to 2 p.m.
Like Senator Lanigan, I would prefer to wait until the Buckley report is published, rather than depend on a partial report in The Irish Times today. As soon as the report is published I will make available one of the new Wednesday morning slots to have the issue debated.
I assure Senator Fitzgerald that the question of fisheries will be high on the agenda for the new Wednesday morning debates. If possible, I will have it as the first debate. I hope the reform of the House providing for topical debates of one to two hours on Wednesdays will commence within the next two weeks.
Senator Finneran raised a question on mental health. I understand that the drafting of the relevant Bill is at an advanced stage in the Department of Health. It is major legislation, comprising of approximately 200 sections. The Department has made it a priority and has so indicated to the parliamentary draftsman. We hope to see the legislation reasonably soon. I understand the Senator's frustration. He has been raising this matter for some time and I will keep him informed.
The treatment of Roisín McAliskey gives great cause for concern. The matter has been raised here on a number of occasions over the past number of weeks. I have conveyed to the Department of Foreign Affairs the concern of the House at the inhuman condition in which, in her state, she is being held. Regardless of the rights and wrongs of the issue upon which she is being held, there is no excuse for her not being treated in the most humane way possible. A pregnant young person in her state is not a threat to anybody.
With regard to the point raised by Senator Mooney, the debate on local government financing is not concluded. It will continue and I suspect that there will be a number of other sessions on it. I will convey the concerns of Senator McDonagh to the Minister for Education.
Is the Order of Business, as amended, agreed to? Agreed.
Order of Business, as amended, agreed to.