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Seanad Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 5 Mar 1997

Vol. 150 No. 7

Students' Maintenance Grants: Motion.

I move:

That Seanad Éireann calls on the Minister for Education to provide maintenance grants to post-leaving certificate students in this country.

This time of year PLC courses are launched for the 1997-8 academic year. This motion is timely because next week in the RDS City of Dublin Vocational Education Committee is launching its open day for all PLC courses for the coming year. I am comfortable with this subject because as a career guidance teacher I steer leaving certificate students towards these courses. Last year the PLC sector provided further education for approximately 18,000 students; this figure will increase this year. Courses include outdoor education, hotel and catering, travel and tourism, hairdressing, accounting, technician, health, fitness and leisure management, equitation, animation and music management.

There is a great vibrancy and excitement about the PLC sector. It fills a niche in our education system. Students who cannot make up their minds, do not get the points or do not want to pursue an academic course find a solution through pursuing PLC courses. As the range of courses has expanded, so too has their status. Many of these courses are validated and certified through the NCVEA and lead to third level qualifications through the award of certificates and diplomas. The courses are dynamic, linked to employment needs and reflect market needs. Most teachers have developed a link with the business world and can, therefore, provide work experience for students, thus facilitating the move to employment.

The Minister has chosen to ignore the plight of PLCs. Last year the Department estimated a huge drop in PLC attendance and courses. This was based on the transition year which it was estimated would result in 6,000 fewer courses. However, that did not happen. The CDVEC did their own calculations and anticipated a drop of 1,500 but that did not happen either. Course numbers actually increased.

We have chosen to ignore the concern of PLC students. Why did the Minister give regional technical college and university students maintenance grants and exclude PLC students? PLC courses are more geared to a specific area of study for which the regional technical colleges cannot always cater. Many students were offered a place in an regional technical college but decided on the PLC course because of its specific nature.

The Minister stated she has abolished fees. However, despite the abolition of fees, the costs of the travel and tourism course, to take one example, are as follows: administrative costs and books, £50; registration charges, £250; NCVEA exams, £25 and external exam fees, £170, bringing the total cost to £495. The total cost of the health, fitness and leisure management course is £399. These courses can only be found in the public sector of the vocational schools. The beautician course costs roughly £410 and I have not doubt that there are many other examples. These charges are in place to ensure the continuance of courses as funding is required to update equipment, provide extra places and accommodate growing student numbers. These charges must be paid to secure a place on a course.

There is confusion and it will be evident again next Tuesday when the CDVEC launches its open day. What are we to do about these charges? If students take up courses which are not available in the regional technical colleges they have to travel to where the courses are and maintain themselves. There is no fee for a FÁS course. Even third level students can get on FÁS courses without paying a fee. It just does not seem right.

The PLC sector is now the only public education sector in which students must fund themselves entirely. Such students must pay for rent, food, books and travel expenses. Some PLC courses are of three years duration and students are finding it increasingly difficult to survive. I have spoken to many PLC students and they have told me of the strain they are under. Indeed, I have known students who have dropped out before they completed courses or who worked late at night in supermarkets to eke out an existence for themselves, often to the detriment of the studies.

Essentially, the Minister's decision to abolish university fees will save some families up to £2,500 irrespective of their wealth while families of PLC students must pay fees plus maintenance. Is this fair? I question the equity of that. The late Christina Murphy summed it up well in an article in The Irish Times supplement “Education and Living” shortly before she died. She said that we will continue to have a situation where a student from a family with an income of £16,000 will qualify for a maintenance grant to go to Trinity College but a student of a family with an income of £8,000 will get no maintenance grant to go to Ballyfermot Senior College or Coláiste Ide in Finglas. It would be cheaper to go to university than to take up a PLC course and this is absurd considering that the whole idea of PLC courses was to cater for those who did not have sufficient points to get into university or who were disadvantaged in some other way. I call on the Minister tonight to respond positively to this motion and to provide maintenance grants for PLC students.

I second the motion.

The "Education and Living" supplement in yesterday's The Irish Times contained a most informative feature on post leaving certificate courses. Many people would have been surprised to learn that the PLC sector provided further education and training for almost 18,000 Irish students last year. These were all students who had passed the leaving certificate or an equivalent examination and, as Senator Ormonde pointed out, these students were engaged in studies as diverse as child care, hotel and catering, computers, animation, horticulture, engineering, tourism, communications and outdoor education.

In the early days PLC courses were generally regarded as an option on which to fall back for those students who were not successful in securing a place in the third level course of their choice. That is no longer the case. Many of the students who opt for PLC courses now do so because of the range and variety of the courses on offer which are not available in other third level colleges. Of course there are still students for whom the PLC course provides a stepping stone to third level. It is very desirable that this should continue to be the case and that a certain number of places in regional technical colleges should continue to be reserved for such students.

There are also many students who seek courses, such as pre-nursing or pre-appenticeship courses, which enhance students' chances of pursuing their chosen careers; but the majority of students on PLC courses are there because they see them as employment oriented. This is borne out by a recent survey of PLC course students which found that the main factor which influenced the students' choice of PLC course and college was the promise of a job at the end of the course.

PLC courses prepare students for the world of work and this is what is making them so attractive to an increasing number of students. I understand that PLC students who have completed courses in areas such as computers and computer related subjects are much sought after and have no difficulty whatever in obtaining employment and that demand greatly exceeds supply in these areas. From every point of view the PLC sector has proved to be extremely successful and popular. It is regrettable, therefore, that PLC students are not eligible to apply for maintenance grants on the same basis as their counterparts in the third level colleges.

The majority of the bigger PLC colleges, and particularly those which offer the more specialised courses, tend to be located in cities and larger towns. Students from outside these locations must finance all their maintenance costs, irrespective of their means. This is most unfair and inequitable. We are not only talking about accommodation costs but also examination fees and the cost of books, personal equipment, travel and all the other costs which arise, especially in the case of students living away from home. The fact that these students are not eligible for maintenance grants is a source of great hardship for such students and their parents in many cases.

I join with Senator Ormonde in appealing to the Minister to remove this inequity. The Minister should recognise the sacrifices which many of these students and their parents are making and the hardships which they are enduring. She should also consider those students who drop out after leaving certificate rather than proceed to PLC courses because of the financial implications of so doing. If maintenance grants were available to students on PLC courses, many of the students who drop out, and in most cases join the ranks of the unemployed, would enrol in PLC courses. Surely it would make better economic sense if the resources which then go to paying unemployment assistance to these people were used to fund a maintenance grants scheme.

Because of the non-availability of maintenance grants the majority of PLC students have no option but to try to finance themselves from part-time work. This is especially difficult for those students who are involved in courses of two or three years duration and these students are at a huge disadvantage vis-á-vis their counterparts in other third level colleges. Many of them fall by the wayside through no fault of their own. It is time to address this inequitable situation. The Minister should without further delay put in place a scheme of maintenance grants for students in PLC courses. The time has come to stop treating the PLC sector as the poor relation. PLC students are entitled to parity of treatment with their counterparts in other third level institutions. It is time to recognise this fact and to act accordingly.

As the numbers taking PLC courses have increased so too has the range of subjects and the status of the various courses. There is now a far greater awareness among employers of the potential of these courses than was the case a few years ago. The aim should be to ensure that every student who completes the leaving certificate will proceed to further education or training. If this is to happen the PLC sector will have a major role to play, but I am afraid it will not happen unless maintenance grants are extended to students on these courses. If the financial pressure on such students is not alleviated, some students will still drop out immediately after the leaving certificate and others will be unable for financial reasons to complete the courses on which they have embarked.

I hope the Minister will accept this evening that the present situation is unjust and inequitable and I look forward to hearing that she is now prepared to initiate a scheme of maintenance grants for these students who up to now have been discriminated against to a great extent.

I have no difficulty whatever in sympathising with the proposers of the motion. I look forward to the day when every post-primary student will be able to go to third level and be entitled to a maintenance grant. I do not think that will happen tomorrow or the next day, but we must at least aspire to that because, as the economy becomes more sophisticated, we need a constant flow of people with the maximum range of skills.

I had a meeting at 5 p.m. with people who were talking about developing an industry and they rehashed all the difficulties faced by businesses trying to find suitably skilled workers. Many jobs are coming on stream at present which cannot be filled and I assume this is because many skilled Irish people are abroad and are not yet ready to come home. We must continue to develop our education system. Nobody can criticise the Government for the work it is doing this regard.

I was delighted when the Minister decided to abolish fees for third-level education because it took a large strain off families and made third-level education more accessible. I have known many families who could not get a grant and who refused to support their children to go on to third-level education because of the expense involved. Removing the fees provided equity for the children and has done a great amount of good.

There has been a great improvement in school buildings over the past few years. A wide range of measures have been taken to try to provide equity in the system and to keep people in the system for as long as possible, particularly for disadvantaged schools to keep vulnerable children in the system and give them a chance to build a life for themselves. Nobody can fault the Minister and the Government for their efforts in this regard. The job is far from finished. We must continue to develop and grow the system as resources become available.

It is a pity that some former Ministers for Education are not in the House to answer questions. Perhaps Senator Ormonde would question one of her party colleagues, Deputy O'Rourke, who was Minister for Education during the period of the growth of the PLCs. Their party did nothing on this matter. I am sure the Minister will indicate her commitment on the matter and I hope she will be able to deliver on that commitment in the not too distant future. The amount of funds being spent on this sector by the Department is huge in comparison to the amount spent during Deputy O'Rourke's tenure. The Minister will indicate the significant amounts involved.

I assume the Minister will indicate that she would like to provide support for PLCs because they fulfil a valuable role. The PLCs offer courses of one or more years to students who otherwise might not be avail of any study after the leaving certificate. The vocational nature of the courses is interesting because they attempt to provide skills needed in the economy so that people will get jobs from the courses. That is a laudable approach. Some of the students go on to mainstream third-level education and there are other courses which prepare people to get back into the system, such as pre-nursing courses. Counties Cavan and Monaghan have one such centre each and they do a marvellous job. I regularly meet students who attended these centres and they are happy with the courses on offer. They are also happy to be enabled to redirect their lives which would not be possible if they did not have the opportunity to take the courses.

The Senators opposite will find that we and the Minister are as committed as they are to the idea behind the motion. They will find the will is there but that it is a matter of trying to find the resources. I hope that in the near future a situation will prevail whereby every student who enters secondary school will go on to leaving certificate level and every student who goes to that level will have the option of doing a third-level course. We should aspire to giving everybody an opportunity to maximise their skills in whichever area they wish to pursue.

I compliment Senator Ormonde on the research she has done in putting this motion before the House. Some of my children did post leaving certificate courses in Limerick and I can vouch for the large expenditure involved. It is particularly expensive for families who live some distance from where the courses are available.

I understand that the Minister has a budget within which she must decide priorities. Within the limits of the resources available the Minister has done a good job. There is a need for more resources to be devoted to education. There is a need to devote more funding to support young people doing PLCs in the transition between school and work. Indeed, in many cases a lot of students find suitable jobs before the courses are completed. Hence, in the long-term such courses may not be as expensive as they appear. In assessing the overall cost of providing these courses I hope the Minister will take into account the numbers of students doing PLCs and the length of time they spend doing the courses. She will have to decide if she can include funding in her list of priorities.

It is essential that some support would be given, if not by way of a direct maintenance grant which may be difficult to achieve within the budget available, perhaps a tax concession might be made available. I paid dearly in this regard during the period my children were doing PLCs. We had to pay substantial amounts in fees, maintenance and travel costs. It was very demanding financially, yet we could not claim tax allowances on the expenditure. If it is not possible for the Minister to provide grants for the courses, I recommend she consults with the Minister for Finance so that a provision might be made in the Finance Bill to provide tax concessions. They would have to be limited and controlled.

People are increasingly using the PLCs as a means to go on to further education at diploma or degree level and this should be encouraged. The availability of employment is in large degree related to the qualifications of the individual and any investment in this regard would pay off substantially in employment terms and in the overall benefit to the economy. The PLCs have the advantage of providing courses which may not be available in the mainstream third-level institutions. I can vouch for the work done in McNamara's school in Limerick over many years. It has been successful not only in training large numbers of young people and allowing them to get meaningful employment in the region but it has also been able to identify the opportunities available, for instance, at Shannon in airlines, freight forwarding and cargo. One cannot readily or easily tune into a university qualification, although it is possible — I know many people who, after spending a year or two on a PLC course, have completed degree courses in the University of Limerick or the regional colleges. Even on her limited budget the Minister can tackle this on a phased basis through tax concessions.

Senator Cotter said Fianna Fáil did not do that when we were in power; I will not get into that but the economy is now in a much healthier state than it has been for years. When I was in Government between 1987 and 1989 it was not a case of having additional resources and deciding priorities. One went through every budget to find new ways either to curtail the spending of certain Departments or to raise revenue; the latter put me into some difficulty for a while. Choices were tough and it was difficult to find a way forward. The position is now different because the economy is booming and the prospects are for more jobs in the next few years. We need to focus on the new opportunities becoming available.

Everyone welcomes the modern technological development in Killorglin which employs hundreds of people in high-tech industries; the Minister will be aware of that project. Through the availability of modern telecommunications, there are and will be opportunities available in the most remote areas of Ireland in which we were not involved up to now. Courses must be available and, above all, families must be able to afford them. The motion is most important, relevant and timely I believe the Minister will respond positively. Within the limits of the finances at her disposal, I hope she can give resources to start dealing with the issue.

The programme, A Government of Renewal, provides a clear recognition that education is central to the promotion and attainment of equality and prosperity in society, as well as to societal and economic development. That is a central theme of the programme. Education is the most predictive variable of occupational and economic attainment and as Minister for Education I would say it is the most important determinant of an individual's life chances. In a climate of rapid occupational, economic and technological change — a point much appreciated by Senator Ormonde, who guides young adults into the world of training and work — we require a workforce which is adaptable and innovative, with high levels of skill in technical and commercial fields.

A number of studies have highlighted the need to strengthen the vocational and technical dimension of education programmes, to enhance the position of continental languages in the curriculum and to develop a spirit of enterprise in participants in support of innovation, growth and job creation. We have no doubt where the opportunities lie. Major curricular reforms have been initiated within the second level system to achieve this change. That system is responsible for the education of the young tigers who are contributing to this "tiger" economy. The success of post-leaving certificate courses has played an important role in influencing these reforms.

The post-leaving certificate or vocational preparation and training programme was introduced as early as 1985 to provide appropriate vocational training for young people to bridge the gap between school and work. The programme integrates training in vocational skills needed for particular disciplines and the development of general skills necessary in all jobs such as interpersonal skills, adaptability and initiative. It also provides for work experience to give relevance to the skills learned and an appreciation of working life.

A key feature in the development of the programme was the adoption of an approach which would enable training centres to respond flexibly. Within the vocational skills section programme, options were designed to be sufficiently broadly based to allow entry into a series of possible occupations. Centres were also given the opportunity to adapt a general programme to suit their particular needs, a point mentioned by Senator Daly. As a first step in considering the introduction of a PLC programme, schools were urged to carry out an examination of local requirements and resources in consultation and co-operation with employers, voluntary agencies, trades unions and the training and manpower agencies.

As Senator Cotter said, there was not much excitement at these beginnings but the PLC programme was allowed to develop into a programme catering nationally for over 18,600 trainees. Senator Ormonde mentioned some of the skills; they range from horticulture to upholstery, from woodcraft and furniture to video production, animation and even equestrian skills, as well as the more traditional areas of engineering, construction, electronics, computer studies, catering, tourism and business studies. As the sector developed the courses became more varied and this Government invested money to allow the numbers to develop to this point.

When the National Council for Vocational Awards was set up in 1991, a structure was established through which the training agencies, manpower authorities, educational interests and industry representatives became involved in designing not just programmes but certification and assessment issues for PLCs. This ensures consistent high quality standards which are relevant to industry needs on an ongoing basis but also that the education which was available was particularly associated with what I would call the quality mark of the Irish education system. The work of the NCVA will be further progressed and strengthened through the establishment of TEASTAS, the Irish National Certification Authority, on a statutory basis, to ensure that those who gain certificates and diplomas do not enter a cul de sac but rather their qualifications become part of personal progression and meet the needs of industry. TEASTAS has been established on an interim basis and a recent report recommended the integration of the certification currently carried out by FÁS, the National Tourism Certification Board and the National Council for Vocational Awards. There are different avenues of progression and we are establishing a flexibility in that regard.

National certification is fundamental to enhancing opportunities for students to gain employment or, as has been said, access to higher levels of education and training. The input of the various interest groups is crucial. Increased investment in in-service training is essential to the achievement of ongoing quality assurance, and I am pleased to confirm that under the terms of the Operational Programme for Human Resources Development, 1994 to 1997, a threefold increase has been achieved in in-service training at every level of the education system. The needs of the trainers and the requirements of teachers change over time. I recognised on my appointment to Marlborough Street that the teaching profession needed investment in its professionalism.

Ireland's continued economic growth is to a great extent dependent on our success in harnessing the talents of our young population, giving them not only skills but the ability to adapt to the rapidly changing circumstances and demands of the workplace. I think people now coming into the workforce would expect to have three different careers in their working life. Under the post-leaving certificate programme, schools have developed an excellent range of courses, facilitating a coherent approach to catering for the needs of the students and the regions, ensuring consistency of standards, more efficient marketing and providing a framework for the active participation and co-operation of the business community.

The planning, development and delivery of quality programmes does not happen overnight. It demands much from providers. I admire the extent to which schools and vocational education committees have responded to that task. They have ensured the provision of a high quality vocational education and training system to serve the current needs of the economy. Their attraction of business opportunities will also ensure that its future needs are also met.

The Government is fully committed to the development and maintenance of a high quality education system. This can be measured by the massive increase in budget since I became Minister. Equality of access and participation, relevance and quality assurance are the cornerstones of our educational policy and system, a system of which we are all proud. Our programme of activity in the years ahead will include considerable investment in tackling disadvantage in ensuring that support services are provided to enable young people at risk maximise their participation in and benefit from schooling; in ensuring that programmes are relevant to fulfil social and economic needs, and that second chance opportunities are provided for those who have missed out in their initial schooling. Systematic investment in in-service training, certification and assessment and evaluation systems to retain the quality mark will also be provided to ensure a high quality cost effective system.

I am aware of the important role maintenance grants can play in promoting access to further education and training. Indeed, when PLC courses were first introduced in 1985, a small grant of £300 per annum was payable to students who participated on the programme, and training allowances continue to be paid as a matter of course by agencies such as FÁS and CERT as part of their approach to vocational training.

The VPT grant was withdrawn in 1988 as one of a series of budgetary cuts referred to by Senator Daly, but participation on the programmes was not unduly affected. They have continued to grow in spite of an increase in third level places, improvement in the level of third level grants to eligible students, a decline in the output from the leaving certificate in 1996 because of the impact of the three year senior cycle and the continued competition from courses offering a training allowance. This represents a recognition of the quality of PLC provision, which was not affected by monetary enticements to other areas of expertise. Indeed, there was a recognition by the customers, the students themselves, of the prospects for employment that followed from these courses.

As Minister for Education, I took the step in 1995 of abolishing fees payable for PLC courses. This was important in making access to further education more generally available. There are indications that maintenance and other priorities will be addressed when the population falls and the investment in education continues, which may improve the quality of students' lifestyles. However, given the recognition of the importance of the PLC to students, the absence of maintenance grants has not worked in cutting back on the number of places sought. Indeed, demand has increased following the recognition of NCVA level two awards for entry to selected courses in the Dublin Institute of Technology/RTC sector. This, the signal of the abolition of the fee and the establishment of TEASTAS secured the future of these courses and the anticipated fall in numbers by the Department did not materialise.

The White Paper entitled Charting our Education Future sets out a number of important developments which will enhance provision in the PLC sector. First, there is an overall emphasis throughout on enhancing the quality of provision through investment in in-career development, the focus on the development of school plans and policies and the monitoring of performance against objectives at every level of the system. Second, there is the establishment of a coherent framework for the further education sector, embracing PLC courses, second chance education and training, and adult and continuing education. A framework is being established which will allow the different sectors to develop. This will ensure a mechanism for the support and development of the sector, for co-ordinated provision relative to needs, appropriate quality assurance arrangements and monitoring of the effectiveness of programmes.

Finally, there is the establishment under TEASTAS of a single national certification system for all extra university vocational education and training, covering both the education and training sectors. This will ensure the collaboration of education, training and industry interests in the setting of national standards relative to the student and labour market needs, and in the development of programmes and assessment and certification arrangements. Hitherto, the system was somewhat chaotic. Given the demand, it perhaps developed too quickly. We need to secure a framework that will ensure vocational qualifications and provide for progression pathways to higher levels of education and training. It will provide for the accumulation of credits towards awards so that the system is suitable for either full-time or part-time courses, and will make arrangements for the accreditation of prior learning and work-based experience. This is one of the most important steps in the developments to promote access to further education and training, to ensure the ongoing relevance and quality of programmes and to make lifelong learning a reality.

The House will be aware that the VTOS programme for the long-term unemployed has been expanded significantly in recent years and that there are no longer age barriers to participation on these courses. Approximately 1,500 trainees are participating on PLC courses. The Minister for Social Welfare provides a mechanism whereby the long-term unemployed can access full-time PLC and third level courses without loss of social welfare entitlements. This is another important step in making lifelong learning a reality in an organised way.

My Department is already expending over £39 million per annum towards the cost of PLC courses, this to a sector that does not consider it gets financial support. The payment of maintenance grants on a means tested basis would enhance the attractiveness of these courses and there does not appear to be any fall in demand. However, the cost of such an initiative is significant. To provide a means tested student support scheme along the lines of the higher education grants scheme, with no different means of assessment or level of income, would cost in excess of £11 million per annum. While we should aspire towards this, there is a cost involved.

Well targeted investment in key areas will serve the needs of Irish society in the years ahead in a climate where there are competing demands for resources. As Minister, I have secured an increase in annual educational investment of 28 per cent over the period 1993-97. Yet I cannot meet all demands. A balance must be struck between competing demands for resources in the education sector, such as funding for the different levels of the system, between initial and second chance education, between student supports, investment in quality assurance, and special measures to combat disadvantage and under achievement. We are lucky that Senator O'Toole is not here to remind me about the funding of the primary sector, the basis on which our education system is built.

In the case of PLC courses, it is more important to concentrate on improving the quality of the system. Investment is being made in national certification and assessment arrangements, programme developments, in-service training for the teaching professions and in ensuring provision in a wide range of disciplines for as many students as possible, because demands are increasing. My record is one of significant investment in the development and quality of this sector.

I am pleased to support the terms of the motion. I believe this investment lays a solid foundation for the continuing development of this very important sector into the future. The White Paper spells out the developments which I foresee for this sector. The provision of maintenance grants is a matter, I can assure the House, which I will keep under continuing review in the light of available resources. The contribution of Senators to this debate will play its part in securing those resources at some time.

I welcome the Minister and thank Senator Ormonde for raising this very important issue. As the Minister said, over 18,500 students participated in post leaving certificate courses last year, costing the Exchequer £39 million. Most courses are of one year's duration and lead to National Council of Vocational Awards certificates and straight into employment for many students.

For others it is a pre third level access course. For example, the vocational school in Newcastle West runs a very good post-leaving certificate course in art which acts as a lead-in to the College of Art and Design in Limerick. The course does not just serve the needs of west Limerick as students travel quite long distances, some from as far away as Monaghan, to attend this course. Some people consider post-leaving certificate courses to be an excellent vehicle for access to third level colleges.

Senator Mullooly referred to the extensive article on PLCs in yesterday's Supplement to The Irish Times. One sentence in that article which summed up the importance of PLCs stated “The main strength of the PLC sector lies in its vocational ethos and its attention to the needs of the job market”. A very strong link has been established between the post-leaving certificate courses and regional technical colleges and, as the Minister said, a path towards progress is very well established.

The post-leaving certificate courses are also used by many adults. I was struck recently by a photograph of recipients of awards on a childcare course, some of whom were my age and older. I thought that some of them could have given the course rather than taken it. However, they were women who felt the need to do a childcare course so that they could, with safety and assurance in their qualifications, set up créches and child minding facilities so that other women could access the work place. These courses are, therefore, not just used by students who feel they need another year before they go on to third level or do not have enough points, but also by many mature students who wish to top up their education.

I would like to digress a little and speak about a course in an area near me. It is called an t-Ionad Glas and is an organic horticultural college operating out of Dromcollogher vocational school. Dromcollogher is a very small town in the south west of County Limerick which boasts two schools, a private secondary school and a vocational school. In an effort to anchor the vocational school in the community, one of the teachers started up a post-leaving certificate course in organic horticulture. It started in 1992 with seven students and now has 22 students, eight of whom have returned for a second year because they felt the first year was highly academic, as it was leading towards the NCVA award, and they did not have sufficient time to develop their practical skills.

Students come from all over the country and one person has come from Great Britain to study on this course. Their educational qualifications range from those who left school early with only a junior certificate to those with third level degrees. All they have in common is that they want to be trained in organic horticulture. Eleven of the students are on VTOS.

As the course is expanding and its popularity grows, demands are being made on it to expand into the area of farming which is more prevalent in the area, which is husbandry or the care of animals, rather than horticulture. Problems often arise with post-leaving certificate courses because, as a result of their development, they start to move into other areas which may not be strictly educational. Teagasc is not sure if it should manage the course and the vocational education committee feels it has outgrown the vocational education committee and the post leaving certificate courses. Nobody seems to want to take responsibility for encouraging the, to use a pun, organic growth in this course. When the Minister calls for a framework, it must be recognised that some courses by necessity will die away whereas others have a natural need to grow.

There is a need for some, not all, post leaving certificate students to be financed. Two girls wanted to do a post-leaving certificate course in Croom, which is 20 miles away from Newcastle West but difficult to access, which would have necessitated their staying in the village. Accommodation was not easily available in the village and both girls came from families where the mother suffered from an illness and the father was heavily dependent on social welfare. They could not, therefore, access the course. They got onto the course which was their second choice in Newcastle West, where they are doing fairly OK. However, I thought it was a pity they were not able to access the child care course on which they had their hearts set.

I was glad to hear the Minister say that if she was given the resources she would fund the maintenance grant. We should all assist her in getting those resources.

I was delighted to see the increases which the Minister was able to obtain in her budget from 1993 to 1997, a most laudable achievement of an increase in investment of 28 per cent. That might not fit into the economic and monetary union criteria for public sector spending——

It is investment.

——but it is a wonderful tribute to her for obtaining that amount of investment in our education system and one of which she can be rightly proud.

As the Minister said, this developing sector of education is a Government priority. A sum of £39 million is annually pumped into PLCs, most of which are run by the vocational education committee sector with some being run by community colleges, for which she is to be commended. I also commend my colleague and friend, Senator Ormonde. We are both members of South Dublin County Council where she has regularly raised this issue. It is important that we debate it in the House because there is a view abroad, particularly in the PLC sector, that they are the Cinderella of the Irish education system. Senator Ormonde is purposeful in raising the issue and concentrating on their needs.

I was heartened by the Minister's response and comments made by other Senators. The bottom line is the PLC sector has mushroomed since 1985 beyond our wildest expectations. If we knew then that over 18,000 young people would be involved today, we would surely have used that sector sooner as a way of ensuring people are given a chance in education. As a result we are in a bind to try and respond to the need for maintenance grants and other resources in this area. The Minister will look at it sympathetically and I congratulate Senator Ormonde for putting down this motion.

This is a real issue in my constituency. A large number of young adults who complete their leaving certificate find PLC courses more accessible than going to university. I regularly meet frustrated parents on the doorsteps who find they have to fork out £30 to £50 per week to allow their children to continue on a PLC course. It is a burden which the Minister has recognised. However, we also have to bear in mind that the objective of a PLC course was never to be a step up to third level or diploma and certificate courses. It was always intended to be one which would provide an individual with the opportunity of a job upon successful completion.

At present there is a huge shortage of skills among young Irish graduates entering the labour force. Numerous American industries based in Ireland have to advertise for graduates abroad. Many graduates of PLC courses, such as the telesales course in Ballyfermot senior college, go directly into employment.

The intention behind PLC courses was to rapidly plug people into employment using a one year course. I recently spoke to Columb Collins, Director of Tallaght Regional Technical College, and in his view PLC courses were never seen simply as a mechanism through which people would enter third level; they were described in The Irish Times supplement as two and a half level courses. He and other educationalists are of the view that while it has come down to the fact that many people are given an opportunity to advance to certificate and degree course eventually, ultimately the objective was to plug them into employment having gained various skills.

The £11 million required for maintenance grants is not peanuts. However, Senator Daly's suggestion that we should look at giving relief by way of covenant to parents through the Finance Bill is excellent and one we should pursue when it comes before the House. As other Senators said, education costs are colossal, not just tuition and examination fees but also weekly maintenance costs which parents and young adults have to produce for going to college. It is an expensive time in anyone's life and has led to large numbers of students taking up seasonal and weekend employment to try and fund themselves through college.

I congratulate those who contributed to this debate. It was useful in highlighting the needs of PLC courses. I hope that this debate will advance the needs of people in that expanding sector.

I thank the Minister and Senators for their helpful contributions in supporting this motion. I acknowledge the Minister's work, and that of her predecessors, in regard to the quality of these courses and how we have standardised them through the NCVA, TEASTAS and to teachers. They must be congratulated because many of them had to do in-service training and diversify their skills in order to reflect the needs of today's markets.

I take issue with Senator Hayes. His perception was that these courses were an end in themselves. They started off as such but are now part of a progression and the Minister has highlighted very forcibly that this should be so in order to allow people to move from a PLC course to a certificate course. Colleges, such as Ballyfermot senior college and Coláiste Íde, Finglas, have many courses which are now validated as certificate courses and are linked to regional technical colleges thus allowing students to progress. I hope that would be an avenue for those who do not make into the regional technical colleges.

I accept the Minister supports the overall thrust of this motion but there is a perception that regional technical college students are covered while PLC students are not and therefore, there is an inequality. I am dealing with one student who left my school to do a course in Ballyfermot senior college. He came back to me saying he could not maintain the pace because his family did not have enough money. Many students like him work at night in pubs in order to eke out an allowance for themselves. We must look at this issue on that basis. I hope between now and September, when the courses begin, the Minister will make a statement that we will consider students in that situation. Most students come from Dublin but some courses require people to travel from the country and these students are discriminated against. That is why I put down the motion.

The Minister indicated she was considering this issue and I thank her.

Sitting suspended at 7.10 p.m. and resumed at 8 p.m.
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