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Seanad Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 23 Apr 1997

Vol. 151 No. 3

Bail Bill, 1997: Second Stage.

Question proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

Our bail laws have been the subject of legitimate public concern for many years. The Minister for Justice, since taking office, made it clear she regarded changes in our bail laws as a priority and this Government has taken decisive action on the matter.

This Bill is clearly one of the most important anti-crime measures introduced since the foundation of the State. The opportunity has been taken not just to give effect to the Amendment of the Constitution Bill which was passed last November, but to strengthen our bail laws generally. This represents a fundamental rebalancing of our criminal justice system in favour of the victims of crime and the law abiding members of society generally.

The issue of bail has been discussed on a number of occasions in this House, most recently when the Amendment of the Constitution Bill was debated last year. It is only right to record the very valuable contributions made by many Members of this House to the debate on this issue and I look forward to hearing their views this afternoon.

In line with the constitutional amendment, the legislation will allow a court to refuse bail to a person charged with a serious offence where it is reasonably considered necessary to prevent the commission of a serious offence by that person. The Bill also contains new provisions relating to amounts of cash or equivalent securities which must be lodged as part of bail; attaching conditions to bail, including conditions relating to good behaviour, and allowing forfeiture of bail where the conditions are breached; and tightening up the provisions of the Criminal Justice Act, 1984.

It is important that this Bill should be seen in the context of the unparalleled programme of criminal law reform which has been undertaken, with the co-operation of this House, by this Government. It would be appropriate to remind the House of what has been produced as part of that programme. It is fair to say that for the two and a half year period involved an unprecedented number of major changes have been made to our criminal law, which have been broadly welcomed by the public. These include the Criminal Law (Incest Proceedings) Act, 1995, and the Courts and Court Officers Act, 1996.

They also include the Criminal Justice (Drug Trafficking) Act, 1996, which applies to drug trafficking offences and includes provisions allowing for detention for up to seven days of suspected persons; the issue of search warrants by superintendents in circumstances of urgency; and restrictions on the right to silence. The Sixteenth Amendment of the Constitution Act, 1996, amended the Constitution in relation to bail and paved the way for this Bill.

The Criminal Justice (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act, 1997, will also speed up aspects of court procedure in criminal matters. It makes general provision, for the first time, for the issue of search warrants in relation to the commission of serious offences such as murder or rape and extends the application of certain other Garda powers. It also allows for wider use by the Garda of "stinger devices" to stop stolen cars or cars that have been involved in crime.

The Criminal Law Act, which was signed by the President yesterday, restates and clarifies the existing law relating to arrest without warrant in relation to serious crimes —"arrestable offences"— and in relation to Garda powers to enter and search premises to effect an arrest. The Children Bill, which I brought before the other House, provides protection for children against abuse and will include provisions to outlaw all forms of child pornography and trafficking in children for the purpose of sexual exploitation.

The Offences against the Person Bill, will provide a range of new offences to combat the distressing and relatively recent problem of criminal conduct involving syringes and blood. The penalties provided range from five years to life imprisonment. The Bill also provides for a new offence of harassment aimed at "stalking"; a new offence of abduction out of the State of a child by a parent in a "tug-of-love" situation; and a new offence of endangerment to deal with conduct which creates a substantial risk of death or serious harm to another.

The Minister for Justice also brought into operation the anti-money laundering provisions of the Criminal Justice Act, 1994, as well as making regulations under that Act dealing with the seizure of imports or exports of cash associated with drug trafficking. This Act required the actions which the Minister for Justice took to make it an effective crime fighting initiative.

We also received approval from the other House for the terms of three important international conventions dealing with international co-operation on crime — the European Convention on Mutual Assistance in Criminal Matters and the Additional Protocol to the Convention; the United Nations Convention against Illicit Traffic in Narcotic Drugs and Psychotropic Substances and the Council of Europe Convention on Laundering, Search, Seizure and Confiscation of the Proceeds from Crime. These conventions, which have now been ratified by Ireland, are very important measures which are enabling Ireland to co-operate extensively with other countries in the fight against drugs and other serious crime. There is already evidence of the success of this co-operation.

In addition, the Criminal Assets Bureau Act, 1996, establishing the bureau, and the Disclosure of Certain Information for Taxation and Other Purposes Act, 1996, allowing the exchange of information between various agencies, were introduced by the Government. The Proceeds of Crime Act, 1996, allowing for the freezing of the assets of criminals, and the Sexual Offences (Jurisdiction) Act, 1996, dealing with child sex tourism, were accepted subject to extensive amendment by the Government.

Last week the Government published the Licensing (Combating Drug Abuse) Bill. This legislation will deal with the problem of drug abuse in public houses, dance halls and other places of entertainment. It will also give additional powers to the Garda Síochána to prevent unlicensed dances, such as "raves", where it is suspected there will be drug abuse. The Government looks forward to continuing this major programme of criminal law reform, and the measures being worked on at the moment include Bills on fraud offences, criminal insanity, indexation of fines, attachment of earnings and Europol.

Any fair-minded observer would recognise that the Government's determination to take whatever measures open to it to tackle the problem of crime is evidenced by that legislative track record. This is especially the case with the legislation before the House today. However, legislation alone is only part of the answer. A host of other anti-crime measures have been taken, and it is especially relevant to mention that this Bill has been brought forward against the background of an unprecedented prison building programme designed to provide an additional 800 prison places, including a remand centre for 400 at Wheatfield.

Turning to the details of the Bill, the earlier parts largely follow the outline legislation which the Government published in the context of the referendum last November. Section 1 provides for certain necessary definitions. The most important of these is the definition of a "serious offence". The approach which we have taken to the question of defining "serious" in this context is to schedule certain offences to which the new regime will apply and to set a minimum term of imprisonment above which offences are to be regarded as serious. For this purpose a term of imprisonment of five years or greater is considered appropriate. To decide on the offences to be scheduled involved an examination of existing criminal law, but recognising that certain offences which carry a penalty of five years or more are either archaic or not ones where the question of re-offending is likely to be relevant, not all offences carrying such a penalty have been included.

The Schedule, therefore, sets out the range of offences to which the definition of a serious offence applies, subject to the five years threshold which I have mentioned. The offences covered include the common law offences of murder, manslaughter, assault occasioning actual bodily harm, kidnapping, false imprisonment and rape. A number of statutory offences are also included — for example, various offences against the person, sexual offences, offences concerning explosives and firearms, robbery and burglary, road traffic offences, offences concerning hijackings of vehicles, forgery offences, offences against the State, drugs offences and public order offences.

An argument may be made that in the case of some scheduled offences which carry a potential penalty of five years or more, the actual crimes involved in particular cases might be relatively minor. This issue would appear to be inherent in any approach taken to the question of defining a serious offence. It would obviously be difficult to attempt to determine this by, for example, setting a value in relation to goods stolen. The circumstances surrounding a robbery can vary greatly. For example, the theft of someone's old-age pension may not involve a large amount of money but could have devastating consequences. The alternative approach — and the one which has been taken in the Bill — is to specify criteria, as set out in section 2, which will in practice allow the courts to take into account the fact that an offence may be a relatively minor one of its kind.

Section 2 provides, in accordance with the authority granted by the Sixteenth Amendment of the Constitution, the new ground on which bail may be refused, namely, where it is reasonably considered necessary to prevent the commission of a serious offence by a person charged with a serious offence. The section then specifies the criteria to which the courts are to have regard in making their decision. These are the nature and degree of seriousness of the offence in respect of which the accused person is charged and the sentence likely to be imposed on conviction; the nature and degree of seriousness of the offence apprehended and the sentence likely to be imposed on conviction; the nature and strength of the evidence in support of the current charge; any conviction of the accused person in respect of an offence committed while he or she was on bail on a previous occasion; any previous conviction of the accused person, including a conviction which is under appeal, and any other offence in respect of which the accused person is charged and is awaiting trial.

Having taken into account one or more of these matters the court may then have regard to the fact that the accused is addicted to drugs. This would be especially relevant in some cases in assessing the probability of offending if released on bail. However, in doing this we are not trying to criminalise drug addiction. This fact can only be taken into account by the court where it is relevant to the question of whether a serious offence will be committed and after the court has taken into account one or more of the other matters. Let me stress that there is no question of a person with a substance addiction who does not represent a threat to the community being refused bail on the grounds of substance addiction alone. I should also point out that, under section 2, the court does not have to be satisfied that any specific offence is likely to be committed by the accused. If it was otherwise, an unreasonable burden of proof would be placed on the prosecution and the impact of the proposed change would be considerably weakened.

Given that the Bill sets out a new ground on which the courts may refuse bail and recognising the need to ensure the speedy processing of trials of those who are remanded in custody, section 3 provides for the review of a refusal of a bail application if the trial has not commenced within four months of the initial refusal. This is an important provision. While it has always been the practice to give priority to trials of accused persons remanded in custody, this provision will highlight the necessity for all concerned in the prosecution of offences to treat these cases as priority cases and avoid as much as possible a situation of an accused spending a long period in prison on remand. If the trial for the offence has not commenced within four months of the refusal, the accused may renew his or her application for bail, citing delay by the prosecution in proceeding with the trial. The court may then, if it is satisfied that the interests of justice require it, release the person on bail. It should be noted, however, that this does not automatically entitle the accused to bail. Rather, the prosecution must demonstrate to the satisfaction of the court that the delay is not unreasonable but is due, for example, to the complexity of the particular case.

It will be evident that the provisions of section 2 clearly contemplate the hearing of evidence concerning an accused's previous criminal history in appropriate cases. This obviously gives rise to concerns about possible prejudice to a fair trial of the accused. To reduce the possibility of prejudice, section 4 provides that where a court is hearing an application for bail the previous criminal record of the accused cannot be referred to in a manner which may prejudice a fair trial subsequently. To prevent possible prejudice the court will have power to direct that the bail application be held in camera, or to exclude members of the public other than officers of the court, persons directly concerned in the proceedings, bona fide representatives of the press, or any other person whom the court permits to remain. The publication or broadcast of any information concerning the criminal record of the accused which was referred to during the bail application will be prohibited. Anyone found guilty of breaching this prohibition could face a potential fine of up to £10,000, or imprisonment for up to three years, or both.

I turn now to section 5. Under section 22 of the Criminal Procedure Act, 1967, an accused may be released on bail on his or her entering into a recognisance with or without sureties. There is no requirement in the Act that the accused person or his or her sureties must, prior to being released on bail, pay any money into court. In practice in the majority of cases no money is paid into court — the accused is released on the promise that the bail money will be paid in the event of the accused's failure to answer bail. There has been much criticism of the apparently small amounts of bail money which are estreated where an accused has failed to turn up for trial. This is accounted for to some extent by the fact that the estreatment process is seen as too cumbersome and lengthy to justify the resources required to pursue those who have not turned up for trial.

This is a matter of great concern which we are determined to remedy. To that end section 5 will oblige an accused and any sureties to pay into court at least one third of the amount fixed by the court before the accused is freed on bail. The fact that some of the bail money has been paid into court will have a number of beneficial consequences. It will mean that at least some bail money is available for forfeiture or estreatment in all cases where there is default. Furthermore, where the court insists on prior payment into court, it has proven to be a great incentive for the accused to appear in accordance with the recognisance to secure the return of the money.

One third represents a reasonable minimum proportion. The court will have the option to accept from an accused or a surety, as security in lieu of the payment into court of the specified amount in cash, any instrument other than title deeds to land which is evidence of title to property. Where it accepts as security a bank, building society, credit union or post office deposit book, it will make an order directing the relevant institution not to permit the balance in the account to be reduced below either an amount equal to that required to be paid into court or the current balance, whichever is the lesser.

Under section 23 of the Criminal Procedure Act, 1967, a person's release on bail is conditioned for his or her appearance before the court at the end of the period of remand. That Act is silent on the question of imposing other conditions on an accused before granting bail. However, the courts in practice attach conditions to the granting of bail in many cases. Such conditions frequently include a requirement to report to the Garda at stated intervals or the surrender of a passport. Section 6 of the Bill will oblige the court to attach standard conditions requiring the accused to refrain from committing any offence and to be of good behaviour while on bail.

In addition, the recognisance may also be subject to any other conditions which the court considers appropriate, including conditions requiring the accused to reside or remain in a particular district or place in the State; to report to a specific Garda station at specified intervals; to surrender his or her passport or other travel document in his or her possession; where the accused has no passport or travel document to refrain from applying for one; to refrain from attending any places and from having any contact with any person or persons which the court specifies. These optional conditions can be varied on the application of the accused in cases where the court considers it appropriate.

Recognising the legitimate interest of any person who acts as surety in preventing the estreatment of the recognisance or the forfeiture of the amount paid into court, provision is made in the Bill permitting the surety to return to court for the issue of a warrant for the arrest of the accused where it is feared that he or she is about to contravene any of the bail conditions. Such an application may be aimed at preventing the estreatment or forfeiture which would arise if the accused breaches a condition. A member of the Garda will also be empowered to apply to court for a warrant of arrest where it is feared that the accused is about to contravene any of the conditions of his or her bail. A person arrested on foot of such a warrant must as soon as practicable be brought before the court which made the order directing that the recognisance be entered into. The court may then either commit him or her to prison, pending trial or until a fresh recognisance is entered into or further remand of him or her.

It is important that any person who puts himself or herself forward as a surety is in a position to meet the financial commitment involved and that proposed sureties are suitable persons to act as surety. To this end section 7 provides that the court which is considering a bail application which requires independent sureties will be required to satisfy itself concerning the proposed surety's financial resources, character, any previous convictions and his or her relationship to the accused. This will also ensure to the greatest possible extent that the proposed surety is not only a reliable person, but also one who can be expected to have sufficient influence with the accused such that the latter will be likely to comply with the conditions of his or her bail.

Section 8 of the Bill will permit the Garda to continue to release on bail persons who have been arrested on foot of a court warrant. It will substitute a new section for section 30 of the Criminal Procedure Act, 1967. The new section takes account of the changes being made in procedures as a result of the provisions of section 5, concerning the payment of moneys into court, and section 6, concerning the conditions to be attached to the granting of bail. Section 8 provides that in cases where a court issues a warrant for the arrest of a person, and the warrant contains an endorsement that he or she be permitted bail by the Garda, the recognisance will be conditioned for the accused's appearance in court as specified and the payment of the specified amount by the accused and his or her sureties as well as the conditions with which he or she must comply. Only then will the person be released on bail.

The present procedures for the estreatment of recognisances are seen by many as cumbersome. This point is also made in the Law Reform Commission report on the law of bail. It stated that in a significant number of cases judges appear reluctant to order estreatment for a variety of reasons. Furthermore, when estreatment of the money promised by sureties is pursued, sureties have been imaginative at explaining away the absence of funds when called upon at estreatment hearings to fulfil their promise. Clearly, the system is open to abuse and liable to be treated in a cavalier fashion by those whose only interest is to frustrate the effective operation of the law. Section 9 proposes to simplify and streamline the estreatment procedure by providing in cases where an accused breaches a condition of his or her recognisance, and where the court issues a warrant for that person's arrest, that it will at the same time order the estreatment of the recognisance and forfeiture of the amount paid into court. This will allow the immediate estreatment of the monies already paid into court, and the liability to estreatment or forfeiture of the balance of the recognisances entered into will remain. The onus will then shift onto the accused or the surety to demonstrate to the court that circumstances exist which require it to vary or discharge the order for estreatment and forfeiture. This is a reasonable way of approaching the matter.

Section 9 will also permit the Garda to seek a warrant for the arrest of an accused in circumstances where it believes that an accused has contravened a condition of his or her recognisance. Section 13 of the Criminal Justice Act, 1984, gives the Garda this power where an accused has failed to turn up for trial. Where a warrant is issued in such a case for contravening a condition of the recognisance, the accused and his or her sureties will remain bound by their recognisances and any money paid into court will not be released until proceedings in connection with the alleged breach are concluded.

The matter of consecutive sentences under the Criminal Justice Act, 1984, has been the subject of much discussion. The Law Reform Commission report stated that the view might be taken that section 11 of the Act, which deals with consecutive sentences for offences committed while on bail, has been deprived of some of its deterrent power because of the courts' interpretation of it to permit them to suspend sentences and their view that while each sentence must be proportionate to the offence, the overall sentence must be proportionate in its totality. We need to send a clear message to those who commit crimes while on bail that the fundamental breach of trust which this represents will not be tolerated and that anyone found guilty of such a breach should know that they will be liable to suffer additional penalties.

The purpose of section 10 is to strengthen the provisions of the Criminal Justice Act, 1984, in relation to the imposition of consecutive sentences for offences committed by a person while he or she is on bail. It proposes to do this by amending the 1984 Act to provide generally that where a consecutive sentence is passed following conviction for an offence committed while on bail, the total sentence to be imposed should generally be greater than would otherwise be imposed and that the commission of an offence while on bail should be considered as an aggravating factor warranting the longer sentence.

Sections 11 and 12 of the Bill deal, respectively, with the removal of references to Peace Commissioners from those sections of Part III of the Criminal Procedure Act, 1967, dealing with the grant of bail, and the repeal of sections 27, 30 and 33 of the 1967 Act consequent on the changes being made in the present Bill. The removal of references to Peace Commissioners arises from court decisions which held that Peace Commissioners do not have power to grant bail.

Section 13 is a standard provision giving the short title of the Act and providing for the bringing into operation of the provisions of the Act by order made by the Minister for Justice. As I indicated earlier, this Bill has been introduced against the background of the major prison building programme designed to provide an additional 800 prison places.

Part of the Bill gives effect to the will of the people which was so clearly expressed in the referendum last November. I believe that the other measures contained in the Bill will also receive widespread public support.

It is some 32 years since the judgment in the O'Callaghan case which restricted the grounds on which bail could be refused. At long last, and with the approval of the people, secured in the referendum last November, this issue is being addressed effectively. I commend the Bill to the House.

I admire the courage of the Minister of State in coming to the House to defend the Government's record on the bail issue. That record is hopeless and appalling. I also commend his courage in trying to bat off the most impossible odds by defending the indefensible, and attempting to pass off a case of serious delay on the part of the Government on the most important law and order issue in recent history.

In January 1994 the then Minister for Justice, Deputy Geoghegan-Quinn, submitted the issue of bail to the Law Reform Commission, which presented its report in August 1995 to the Attorney General, Dermot Gleeson. Why did it take from August 1995 to November 1996 to hold a bail referendum? Why did it take from November until April 1997 to bring forward bail legislation? I hope the Minister of State does not excuse the delay by saying that this is a complex area of law demanding specialised study and teams of experts. The Bill has 13 sections and could have been drafted in a very short period of time. I will show that many of the sections were drafted by Deputy O'Donoghue.

Why did it take from August 1995 to April 1997 to hold a referendum and introduce bail legislation? I admire the Minister of State's fortitude in defending such a position, but the Government sat on the issue and did nothing about it despite the murders and gangland warfare of 1996. I will seek statistics on how many crimes were committed on bail in 1996. The following people were killed between June 1995 and June 1996: David Weafer, in June 1995, Fran Preston in June 1995, Gerard Connolly in August 1995, Eric Shortall in November 1995, Catherine Brennan, whom I represented at constituency level, and Eddie McCabe in November 1995, Christie Delaney in November 1995, Gerry Lee in March 1996, John Reddan in April 1996, John Kelly in April 1996, Detective Garda Jerry McCabe in June 1996 and Veronica Guerin in June 1996.

Why was there such a delay in that period? That was not answered in the Minister of State's speech and I look forward to his reply. The Minister of State will be aware that Deputy O'Donoghue brought forward a Bail Bill on 8 June, 1995, before the Law Reform Commission gave its report to the Attorney General. That Bill was voted down, as was a subsequent Bill from the same Deputy. The Minister of State should explain why the Government did nothing but sat on its collective wisdom between 17 August 1995 and November 1996, when it held the bail referendum.

If the Minister of State is honest, as I am sure he is, he will accept that the Government decided to hold a bail referendum on 2 July 1996. That was when the Government issued a statement on its shock and horror at the terrible murder of Veronica Guerin in June of the same year.

The Government was asleep for months, but was panicked into a decision when Veronica Guerin was assassinated. Does the Minister of State understand why there would be disquiet among many members of the public that the Government was stampeded into action rather than acting in a planned and managed way?

The Minister of State did not mention that the principal legislation enacted by the Government after Veronica Guerin's murder had been drafted by Deputy O'Donoghue. The Minister of State should accept that Deputy O'Donoghue was showing leadership in the drafting of legislation and it would have been gracious to refer to this in his speech.

I do not think the 1996 Garda report has been published yet, although the Minister of State could confirm that. It is the practice that the Minister for Justice obtains that report some two to three months after it is published. The 1995 report was received by the Minister early in 1996. Does the Minister for Justice have the report for 1996? If so, will she publish it before the general election? If not, why not?

It will be published.

It was in the newspapers.

It has not been published. If she will not publish that report before the general election, I presume one of the reasons is that it will demonstrate clearly that there has been a large increase in the number of crimes committed by people on bail during 1996. How many murders, muggings, robberies, etc., were carried out by people on bail during the period when the Government could have changed the law on bail but for some reason sat on its collective wisdom and decided to do nothing about it?

The Minister of State will not be able to contradict any of the dates to which I referred: the report of the Law Reform Commission of 17 August 1995, the bail referendum announcement approximately one year later in July 1996 and the referendum which took place a few months later. It has taken five or six further months to publish the Bail Bill, a simple 13 point Bill.

Another clue why this Government was so slow to publish a bail Bill and move on the bail issue is that it did not have prison places. I will not blame the Minister of State for that. Everybody knows it was the decision of the Deputy Leader of the Labour Party, Deputy Ruairí Quinn, and he accepted that in this House. The Minister of State did not mention that in his speech. On 9 February 1996 the Minister for Finance, Deputy Quinn, stated: "I am the person who proposed postponing Castlerea prison".

The Senator should read out the rest of it.

What did he state after that?

That is selective——

It is not. He said that on 9 October 1996.

The Senator should read out the rest of it.

He said: "I am the person who proposed postponing Castlerea prison".

Will the Senator quote the rest of it?

I do not have the full text with me.

I am sure the Senator does not.

The Minister of State can bring it into the House and justify postponing the building of Castlerea prison to the people. That is the point.

The prison is being built with the money which was available. It is not an election promise.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

Senator Mulcahy without interruption. Senator Gallagher will have an opportunity to make a contribution.

The Senator is inviting interruption.

I am not inviting interruptions. I did not interrupt the Minister.

The people will want to know why Ruairí Quinn decided to postpone the Castlerea prison project and why the Government decided not to move on the bail issue. The truth hurts; that is why I am being interrupted.

The Senator should ask Ruairí Quinn. Ruairí Quinn——

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

Members of the Cabinet should be referred to by their proper titles.

Perhaps the Minister for Justice, who threatened to resign at the time, could come into this House and tell us whether she agreed with that decision because she never did. Did she threaten to resign? If she did, why did she not resign at the time?

The tone of the Minister of State's speech was self-congratulatory.

Of course.

It should be excusatory. It should be humble. It should seek forgiveness because never has there been such an appalling record in relation to law and order. It almost amounts to gross negligence and the most terrible culpability. How many victims of crime have there been due to this Government's delay and negligence in so far as the prisons, and more particularly, bail are concerned?

I referred earlier to another point which was not addressed in the Minister of State's speech, that is, that this Bill has been drafted largely by Deputy O'Donoghue. For example, section 4 of Deputy O'Donoghue's Bill stated that a serious offence is an offence by virtue of which a person of full capacity and not previously convicted may be punished by a term of imprisonment for a term of five years or by a more severe penalty. Section 1(1) of the Minister's Bill states that a serious offence means an offence specified in the Schedule for which a person of full capacity and not previously convicted may be punished by a term of imprisonment for a term of five years or by a more severe penalty. It is copied almost word for word, and I can give three or four more examples where the wording of this Bill is taken from the Bill drafted by Deputy O'Donoghue.

He got it from a previous Bill.

If the Minister is so intent on copying the words of Deputy O'Donoghue, why does she not move aside and let him hold the position of Minister for Justice for which he is well suited and for which she has shown herself to be so incompetent?

A great democratic notion.

If she copies all his words, why will she not make way for him? Why will she not allow some genuine leadership in the fight against crime?

Why was Deputy O'Donoghue not made Minister for Justice when Fianna Fáil was in Government?

I find it unbelievable. She copied several Bills. In fact, several of the Bills to which the Minister of State referred were originally drafted by Deputy O'Donoghue.

Not true.

Fianna Fáil led the debate on the child sex tourism Bill——

Not true.

——and, in this House, on the reporting of incest cases.

Not true.

That is true. The Minister should ask his spokesperson. I played a large part in drafting the principal section concerned so the Minister should check his facts.

It is a sorry sight when a Government waits approximately two years to act and when it cancels the building of prisons and claims that it is involved in a major building programme. Fianna Fáil welcomes this Bill in so far as it is a logical consequence of the amendment to the Constitution which was passed in November 1996, but the question remains open given what this Government has done to the prison building programme and the reality of the number of existing prison places.

The headline on the Evening Herald of 20 February 1997 stated: “Prison Farce — Jailed for 12 months, Freed in 48 hours”. Does the Minister think that situation will improve when this Bill is enacted? Does he think that when more people are being refused bail the headline will change to “Jailed for 12 months, Served 12 months”? It will probably read: “Jailed for 12 months, Freed in 12 minutes”. The reality is that people on early and temporary release due to the shortage of prison places have been committing crime up and down this country and this Government is culpable and stands condemned for that negligence. That is a fact. That is why Fianna Fáil will table amendments on Committee Stage which will improve and strengthen this Bill and why it is committed to the building of prisons by the private sector which can be leased back to the State so that prisons can be built quickly and efficiently and persons who are convicted of crimes can serve their sentences.

I admire the Minister for his fortitude and courage. I understand that he is not a member of the Labour Party, which is primarily culpable for the liberal attitude to crime which has obviously been engendered in this country.

That is absolute bunkum.

The Minister for Finance is not a member of the Minister of State's party. It is the Labour Party, aided and abetted by Democratic Left, which has brought the law into disrepute.

When will Senator Mulcahy cop on?

The truth always hurts, which is why Senator Gallagher keeps interrupting.

It does not bother me.

Shall I quote the Minister, Deputy Quinn, again?

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

Senator Mulcahy without interruption. Senator Gallagher will have an opportunity to make a contribution.

It is a little too late for the Labour Party to jump on the law and order bandwagon and the fight against crime. It is a sorry sight to see such a weak Fine Gael Minister for Justice so dominated and led by the left of this centre-left Government.

Could the Senator address the Bill?

As Deputy Cowen so ably stated at our recent Ard Fheis, the meaning of this centre left Government is that there is nothing left of the centre. I commend this Bill, as amended, to the House.

I am amazed at the statements made by Senator Mulcahy when we bear in mind that bail has been an issue since the O'Callaghan case in 1966. For the previous eight years, before we went into Government, not one whit was done about bail. In 1989 I began introducing motions on bail in this House but each time I did so the Fianna Fáil Ministers — Deputies Burke, Flynn and Geoghegan-Quinn — voted them down. Senator Mulcahy quotes from the Bill and compares it to one originated by Deputy O'Donoghue. However, Senator Mulcahy is obviously unaware that two previous similar Bills — one introduced in the Dáil by the Fine Gael Opposition spokesperson on Justice, Deputy Barrett, and a similar one introduced by Deputy Gay Mitchell — were both voted down by Fianna Fáil Ministers for Justice. The Bill before the House is very similar to those Bills. Deputy O'Donoghue obviously copied the work done by Deputies Barrett and Gay Mitchell.

One would imagine the difficulties arising from the lack of prison spaces arose overnight. More spaces have been created by the Minister for Justice than by all the Fianna Fáil led Governments from 1987 to 1994. By the end of this year 800 new prison places will be in train, an increase of one third, which is the biggest expansion of prison space since the foundation of the State. I accept it is not enough, however, and that we must have a further programme to ensure prison spaces cater for the levels of crime which have escalated over the past ten years.

Senator Mulcahy spoke about prison farces but I will remind him of a prison farce that took place in the summer of 1994 when Deputy Geoghegan-Quinn was the Minister for Justice and Deputy O'Dea was Minister of State at the Department of Justice. At that time, 100 prisoners were released because arrests were expected during the Féile event in Thurles and extra prison space was needed. This was highlighted after about 20 of the proposed 100 prisoners had already been released and there was a national debate on the prison farce taking place. I received information that the 20 prisoners who had been released were being brought back to prison because of the furore. On television, Deputy O'Dea announced the 20 people were back in prison but, by the time the news broke at 6 o'clock, the same people had been re-released. He had brought them back into prison to announce they were there. That was the level of prison farce with which we had to deal.

The present Minister for Justice has done more than anyone else to tackle crime. The details have been outlined by the Minister of State in the House today. I welcome the Bill which will give the courts discretion to refuse bail to anyone pending trial. It will empower a judge to refuse bail to a person who, in the judge's opinion, is likely to commit further offences while on bail. Few people regarded the law as it existed since the O'Callaghan case as serving the country. In fact, it only encourages criminal activity.

In theory it sounds reasonable to uphold the golden thread of the presumption of innocence but in practice it operates as an invitation to professional criminals, who know they will be sent to prison for a long time, to start building up a nest egg for their release. If someone is going to go down for ten years for a robbery they know they will only serve the same time if they are convicted of committing several more armed raids while awaiting trial. I welcome the fact that the Government is dealing with this problem to ensure there is consecutive sentencing.

Since I entered this House in 1989, I have pointed out that offenders on bail awaiting trial for serious offences have nothing to lose by going on a crime spree. I was totally ignored until this Government did something about it. There is nothing draconian in what the Government is proposing. It applies in every other State, even the liberal Nordic democracies. It is in conformity with the European Convention on Human Rights. It does not presume guilt before trial. Irish law has always allowed for detention before trial, whether because there is a danger of interference with witnesses or that the accused may not turn up in court. Nobody challenged these provisions as being tantamount to internment or a presumption of guilt. They are regularly applied in our courts. This Bill will provide a welcome extension in ensuring that courts can decide to refuse bail to those who would use it to commit further offences.

The Bill will reduce the number of serious and violent crimes, especially robberies and assaults, including sexual assault. It reduces the threat to life and limb by professional, organised drug pushers, gangs which specialise in aggravated burglary and car theft, and those who make a living from crime and who walk free from the remand courts to continue their criminal activity pending trial.

There is a good chance that unfortunate citizens who find themselves staring down the barrel of a gun will be the victims of an assailant who has already been apprehended by the Garda, charged and then let out on the streets on bail. Our liberal bail laws benefit — if that is the right word — many relatively harmless offenders but those same laws are the daily joy of, and celebrated by, hard-core violent criminals who will scarcely hesitate to take life in pursuit of their objectives. No state should ask its citizens or law enforcement officers to be victimised by those who have been apprehended in the act, often at great physical risk, only to be turned free pending trial. The undeserving beneficiaries of our bail laws are the professional criminals, including gunmen, who prey upon the weak and vulnerable. The bail laws are being changed to confront those elements who daily and hourly commit serious crimes.

The proposed law does not represent a fundamental breach of civil liberties or human rights, as some people seem to suggest. It is necessary for the protection of civil liberties and human rights of the victims of crime.

The fact that I am an elected Senator, as opposed to Senator Mulcahy, means that I take this job more seriously in addressing what I believe Senators are elected to do, that is to debate legislation. I, therefore, intend to confine my remarks to this legislation.

One or two definitions in the Bill do not seem to add up. The definition of a "criminal record" in section 1 includes the phrase "(if any)" which seems superfluous. The phrase "reasonably considered necessary" in section 2 is cumbersome. That wording, which has been agreed by the people, means that before refusing bail it must be "reasonably considered necessary" to prevent a serious offence being committed by that person.

Section 2(2)(a) states: "the sentence likely to be imposed on conviction". That appears to presuppose that the accused is guilty. It should read "if convicted" rather than "imposed on conviction". Section 2(2)(b) states: "the offence apprehended"; that warrants further discussion. In cases of drug addiction, an addict may commit theft, burglary, etc., to feed their habit. I would like to know how such cases will be decided because it will vary from court to court.

The six paragraphs in section 2 must be considered when determining if bail should be refused. I accept paragraphs (c), (d), (e) and (f) which are reasonable. The beginning of subsection (2) states that "a court shall take into account ...". That appears to emphasise the need for the court to consider each of the six paragraphs. However, it also states that "where it has taken account of one or more of the foregoing ...". This seems contradictory because it allows the court to consider one of the paragraphs. The intention was to consider each paragraph on its merits as it applied to the individual case. I am concerned about the drafting of this section.

I am also concerned about the reference to drug addiction in this section. The six paragraphs deal with the nature and seriousness of the offence with which the person is accused, the evidence in support of the charge, etc. However, the subsection states that "it may also take into account the fact that the accused person is addicted to a controlled drug within the meaning of the Misuse of Drugs Act, 1977". That highlights a problem in our society but it does not deal with other issues. The fact that a person is a drug addict leads one to suspect that the addict will turn to crime to feed that habit. Does the same reasoning apply to a man with no means who suddenly builds a mansion? Do we become suspicious of a white collar criminal who lives a lavish lifestyle but who submitted accounts which showed a loss to the Revenue Commissioners? Are we equally judgmental in assuming that a man who commits rape will violate another woman if released?

I am convinced we do not view all crimes of equal importance equally or all criminals as equal wrongdoers. White collar crime is rife but it is acceptable and almost grudgingly admired. Those who commit sexual offences are driven by the need for power and control. That will not go away because a term was served for a previous conviction. Why does this legislation regard drug addiction as the only additional criterion by which one's right to bail might be decided? Anyone with a record of sexual offences, domestic violence or tax fraud should be refused bail.

While statistics show that much crime is drug related that is not always the case. However, drug addiction is the only crime listed in the Bill. The Minister will say that 70 or 80 per cent of crime is drugs related. I accept that but we, as legislators, must also deal with the remaining 20 or 30 per cent. We must deal equally with all crimes. Drug addiction leads people to recommit crimes, but people who commit domestic offences and paedophilia are also likely to reoffend. Yet, they are not listed or given individual attention in this legislation.

Section 3 deals with the renewal of bail applications after four months if necessary. Some say that is too long while others say it is too short; at least it is included in the Bill. I accept it takes time to put together a book of evidence and that the circumstances in many cases will result in a delay of more than four months. However, it is important not only to bring someone before the court after four months but to tackle the delays in the criminal and judicial systems. I hope the Department will continue to focus on that aspect.

Section 4 deals with the evidence of a previous criminal record. It must have been difficult for the draftsman to draft this section because introducing evidence of a previous criminal record is bound to have an impact on the hearing. It is difficult to determine how it can best be done unless the bail application is heard in camera. Subsection (2)(b) mentions “the bona fide representatives of the Press”. I do not know how that will work. The court must determine who is entitled to be there during the bail application and how best to protect the good name of the citizen until proven otherwise. The protection is discretionary because the subsection states that the “court may [not shall] direct that the proceedings shall be heard otherwise than in public”. It does not ensure a private hearing of the evidence of a previous record. I welcome the provision dealing with the prohibition on publications.

Section 5 deals with the payment of bail money, an issue which should have been addressed years ago. Recognisance and bail are fixed in court on a daily basis. However, no real consideration has been given to whether a surety has the money to do so, whether that surety will pay if called upon to do so or whether bail money should be collected. This system has been abused in the past and I welcome the provision. The requirement that "an amount equal to one third" or "such greater amount as the court may determine" of a person's bail should be paid to the court is a practical and useful provision.

I welcome the provision in section 7 which, for the first time, puts in place a requirement that the background of persons paying a surety, and their ability to pay it, must be investigated. This issue has long needed to be addressed and I welcome the attempt to do so.

The conditions of bail as set out in section 6 appear reasonable. Provision is made to vary the conditions of bail which will come into play where applications are renewed and circumstances change. It is sensible that the legislation permits the conditions attaching to a person's reporting to a Garda station to be reviewed in accordance with any change in circumstances. The endorsement on warrants in respect of a release on bail are well set out and long overdue. I have always been puzzled that so many people could abscond while on bail and commit further offences without the gardaí, in the locality where such offences occurred, having knowledge that they were on bail. If the system was computerised in terms of warrants, etc., it would be easier for the gardaí to know the current status of an apprehended person. Further work is needed in this area but the provisions in the legislation are well thought out in that regard.

I welcome section 10 which amends section 11 of the Criminal Justice Act, 1984. It is ironic that there was a need to restate the right of the courts to order consecutive sentences because this existed in the past. However, judges tended to take the seriousness of offences into account and did not desire to make this an aggravating factor in terms of the ultimate sentence handed down. I do not believe that was correct. There should be a penalty for committing crime while on bail. Section 10 specifically directs the courts to consider that issue and I welcome that. Consecutive sentencing is fair and proper in circumstances where people commit further offences while on bail. Such people must be aware that a penalty exists if they act in this way. It is not good enough to state that these people might as well be hung for a sheep as a lamb, they must know that they will suffer a harsher penalty in terms of consecutive sentences. Such a deterrent must be put in place and clearly set out in the legislation.

Senator Mulcahy's comments were not helpful. During my contribution I addressed the Bill before the House. It must be placed on record that this Government has been extremely busy in dealing with criminal justice legislation during my term as a Senator. While much lip service was paid to these issues in the past, the Government has addressed them in the only way open to it, namely, in terms of legislation, providing funding, speeding up the judicial system, appointing additional judges, proceeding with Castlerea prison and the establishment of the Criminal Assets Bureau by the Minister for Finance, Deputy Quinn. When Senator Mulcahy was still in nappies the Labour Party was seeking to address the issues of drugs and crime.

With regard to the selective amnesia on the other side of the House, no one can afford to be smug in stating who has taken action on crime. Neither can any Member state that another party has failed to address that issue. In fairness, each of us takes that responsibility seriously.

Prove it.

Some Members have been victims of crime and we are all familiar with the victims of crime in our constituencies. This issue must be addressed in a way which is fair, proper and constitutional and which will work. The Government has largely succeeded in addressing these ongoing problems.

The Bill provides for the wishes of the people as expressed in the referendum. It will not be the panacea for all our ills because only a small fraction of crime is committed by people on bail. The Bill can only address and prevent that part of the problem, but at least it is certain to do so. It remains for us to address the causes of drug addition. We must consider the issues of prevention rather than cure, Garda administration, in particular having gardaí who should be on the beat doing office work, and speeding up the court system in terms of dealing with evidence, etc. Having said that, we have come a long way and I welcome the Bill.

I thank those Senators who contributed to the debate and I welcome the broad support they expressed for the Bill. For too long our bail laws have been abused and this Bill will tackle the problem effectively.

I do not propose to become involved in a lengthy argument about the political history surrounding this legislation. I do not believe that people who are concerned about crime are impressed by petty political bickering and point scoring. Having said that, I apologise to Senator Mulcahy and must refer to his contribution.

The Minister of State should not apologise.

I suppose the Senator would be disappointed if I did not refer to his contribution.

The Minister of State must do as he sees fit.

The Minister of State without interruption.

I have no objection to the Senator's interruptions but I accept that the Chair must apply the rules of the House. Interruption provides the impetus for debate. I accept that Senator Mulcahy felt the need to raise some of the issues to which he referred during his contribution. I am an understanding sort of person.

The Minister of State is also brave.

Senator Mulcahy suggested that plagiarism had taken place. He stated that Deputy O'Donoghue was responsible for wording parts of this legislation and other Bills. As Senator Neville pointed out, when in Opposition the current Minister of State at the Department of the Taoiseach, Deputy Gay Mitchell, introduced legislation on this subject in which similar wording was used. As a legal practitioner, though I would prefer to have him against me rather than on my side, the Senator will be aware that much of the language used in Bills of this nature is taken from previous legislation. I do not believe Deputy Mitchell, any more than Deputy O'Donoghue or the Minister for Justice, is responsible for the wording in the Bill, given that it is built on previous legislation.

Senator Mulcahy referred to a number of Bills which the Government is alleged to have copied. I observed the actions of Deputy O'Donoghue and a number of his colleagues when introducing those Bills. I am aware of the precise nature of their actions in bringing forward such legislation and I would consider following their example if I was in Opposition. Perhaps I will do so when my party returns to Opposition in 20 years' time. Deputy O'Donoghue learned from the newspapers that the Government was considering introducing certain legislation and hunted for a Bill to introduce in the Dáil. In one instance he copied British legislation almost word for word, even though the conditions in this country are different from those which obtain in that jurisdiction. He cobbled together a Bill which he brought before the Dáil that was unrealistic and, in parts, could not be implemented or was not constitutional.

The Minister of State should be specific.

We voted it down and then he claimed credit for the Government's Bill. He has done that time and again.

To be specific I will refer to the legislation on sex tourism which Deputy O'Donoghue brought forward. He cobbled the Bill together from British legislation which related to child pornography.

The Government copied it.

Child pornography was not an offence under his Bill because it was not an offence in the British legislation. That is just one blatant example. Senator Henry published a Bill on the same issue at about the same time. The legislation which the Government introduced owed more to her Bill than to the Fianna Fáil one. It was more realistic.

The Minister of State did not say that at the time.

I did. Senator Mulcahy did not refer to her contribution but I paid tribute to her.

The Minister of State's memory is selective.

If so, I am not alone. We would have had to amend every line of the Fianna Fáil Bill. I described it as a nonsense Bill which was copied from the British legislation and it did not deserve to be passed. That is the extent to which Fianna Fáil is responsible for this and other legislation.

What about the criminal assets Bill?

For all the opportunities others had to resolve the problems with regard to bail which have existed for many years, it was this Government which put the issue to a referendum and which introduced legislation to tackle the issue once and for all. That is the incontrovertible reality of the matter, which cannot be challenged by assertions to the contrary.

The Bill takes a two pronged approach. It gives effect to the amendment to the Constitution passed by the people last November. As the House is aware, since the O'Callaghan judgment in 1965 — numerous Fianna Fáil Ministers for Justice did nothing about the bail issue from that time — bail may be refused only on two grounds, where there is a danger that the accused will not turn up for trial or will interfere with witnesses or evidence. The problem can be remedied following the referendum last November which allows a third ground to be taken into account. When this Bill is enacted, a court will be able to refuse bail to a person charged with a serious offence where it is reasonably considered necessary to prevent the commission of a serious offence by that person. It is important to emphasise that the refusal of bail is not automatic in any case. We are enabling a court to take this factor into account.

The Bill sets out the criteria which the courts must examine in making its decision. The criteria in the Bill are broadly the same as those contained in the outline legislation published last November. It is important to have a proper balance in the legislation and that is why the offences in question must be serious offences as defined in the Bill. The Bill also makes provision for a review of bail applications where bail has been refused and the trial has not commenced within a four month period.

The Bill does more than give effect to the constitutional change in relation to bail. We have taken this opportunity, which was acknowledged during the course of the debate, to tighten up the operation of the bail laws generally. These are important changes. For the first time, it will be a condition of bail that a person does not commit offences while on bail and should be of good behaviour. Persons who stand bail must, in effect, guarantee this behaviour and the bail money will be forfeit if any conditions of bail are breached. This should be a strong incentive for a person granted bail to honour the conditions attaching to it. The incentive will be made stronger because money will already have been lodged in court which can be forfeited immediately.

The Bill will also strengthen the provisions of the Criminal Justice Act, 1984, requiring consecutive sentences to be imposed when offences are committed while on bail. This is designed to deal with difficulties identified by the Law Reform Commission on the operation of the existing provisions. The message we want to send is that not only will crime not pay, but, even more so, crime committed while on bail will not pay.

Questions were raised about the implications of a new bail regime for prison accommodation. The additional prison places which will be necessary cannot be wished into existence. There was a long period under Fianna Fáil Administrations during which no new prison places were provided. The reason the Government faced a problem when it came to office was the ground work had not been done and the new places had not been provided.

That is not what the Minister for Finance, Deputy Quinn, said.

Should the Senator not refer to Deputy Geoghegan-Quinn?

The Senator was careful not to quote what the Minister for Finance said in its entirety. He played the old trick of quoting one sentence in isolation and deliberately omitting the rest.

The Minister of State should talk to the Minister for Finance.

The Government has devoted resources to an unprecedented prison building programme which is producing an additional 800 prison places as quickly as is possible. The Government approved an accelerated prison capital building programme which will provide the additional 800 places — 160 places became available in 1996, 180 places are scheduled for completion in 1997 and 460 new places are to become available in 1998. That is a good programme given the starting position which faced the Government arising from the neglect of Administrations led by Fianna Fáil. The Minister for Justice and I are proud of that programme. We will accelerate it and we will do better when we return to Government after the election.

Criminal law reform is one element of the fight against crime and the Government has taken other initiatives in this regard. One of the main features of the anti-crime measures announced last July was the recruitment of 400 gardaí. The Minister for Justice obtained approval recently from the Government for her proposal to hold a new competition for the recruitment of gardaí over the three year period 1998 to 2000. In addition, an extra 200 civilians will be recruited by the summer so that an equivalent number of gardaí can be released from clerical and administrative duties.

As well as additional recruitment it is important that the Garda has a proper infrastructure available to it. An information technology plan for the Garda is being implemented at a cost of about £36 million. The House may also be aware that work is continuing on providing a dedicated air support unit for the Garda. An effective further aid to policing is the use of closed circuit television systems. Progress is being made on this development in a number of areas, most recently on O'Connell Street in Dublin.

I note Senators recognise that there must be a comprehensive approach to issues related to crime and that there must be an emphasis on measures to prevent crime. I compliment Senator Neville on the points he made. Emphasis must be put on crime prevention measures. An example of such an emphasis is the operation of youth diversion schemes which specifically target young people who show signs of becoming criminals. The number of schemes in operation has increased from four to 11 in recent years and there are plans for further development in this area. As the Minister with special responsibility for children I pay particular attention to the youth diversion schemes and I have no doubt that many young people have been prevented from entering into a life of crime as a result of the operation of these schemes.

Drug abuse is one of the greatest menaces facing society. The House will be aware of the wide range of initiatives which have been, and will continue to be, taken in this area. In relation to criminal justice, it has become increasingly clear that there will be no untouchables as far as the Garda are concerned. I commend Senator Gallagher on her contribution to the debate which was an extremely responsible one.

As was mine.

I would not even consider making a comparison between them. Senator Gallagher singled out particular aspects of the Bill with which she disagreed and she made many responsible suggestions as to how the Bill might be improved. The Senator was unhappy with section 2(2) which states that a court may take into account the fact that an accused person is addicted to a controlled drug. It is important to emphasise that this may only be taken account of in the context of whether a person is likely to commit a serious offence if released on bail. This issue arises only where one of the other criteria has been taken into account. The other criteria listed in (a) to (f) of the section will not all arise in every case; they will only apply where they are relevant to the case before the courts. Drug addiction may be taken into account and there is no question of criminalising it.

I note the point made by the Senator on whether sex offenders should be included in the same category as drug addicts. Given my particular responsibility in relation to children, I was thinking in terms of paedophiles. I have been informed that, in such instances, it is covered by other conditions in the Bill. The possibility of a repeat offence may be taken into consideration. Though I thank the Senator for raising the point, it is already covered in the Bill.

I take this opportunity to pay tribute to the Irish Association for Victim Support for its valuable work. The House will welcome the allocation of £280,000 to it this year. My home was burgled recently and I was pleased to receive a letter from the association. It surprised me as the burglary was not a serious one but credit is due to it for writing to me so promptly. I will compliment it in a personal capacity at a later stage.

A few weeks ago, the Minister for Justice published a charter for victims of crime and this is a significant development. Inevitably, there was a general discussion on crime related issues during the course of this debate. It is not possible to respond to every specific matter raised but it is worth making the point that this Government has undertaken a programme of fundamental reform on the operation of our criminal justice system. The House will be aware that we are committed to the establishment of a new courts service and an independent prisons agency. A review of the Garda Síochána is also being carried out under the strategic management initiative. These measures are evidence of the Government's belief that it is not worthwhile to make changes which do little more than tinker around with the problem. This Government is bringing about fundamental and well thought out improvements.

The Department of Justice, under the strategic management initiative, will shortly publish a discussion document on crime which will be the first of its kind. I hope it will lead to informed public debate on these complex issues and that the debate will address the many concerns which were expressed by Senators from both sides of the House.

Question put and agreed to.

Acting Chairman

When is it proposed to take Committee Stage?

At 4.15 p.m. today.

Committee Stage ordered for 4.15 p.m. today.
Sitting suspended at 3.40 p.m. and resumed at 4.15 p.m.
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