Seanad Éireann debate -
Friday, 16 May 1997

Vol. 151 No. 13

Order of Business.

An Cathaoirleach

Before calling the Leader, I wish to make some comments as this is probably the last sitting day of the present Seanad. I have no doubt that some Members may be going on to higher things in the Lower House and I thank all Members for their co-operation. I cannot but recall my two predecessors and Senator Gordon Wilson, whom we lost during the lifetime of this Seanad. I also thank Members for their co-operation not only in recent months but when I was Government Whip and before that, Opposition Whip. I thank the Clerk of the Seanad, the Clerk Assistant, the stenographers, ushers and all staff of the House. After the events elsewhere yesterday, many Senators will be participating in the first of the summer festivals on 6 June, and they have my good wishes. The Seanad elections come later.

I also thank those Senators who have been temporary Chairmen and particularly the Leas-Chathaoirleach, Senator Mullooly. I also thank Members who at times co-operated fully on the Order of Business.

Mr. Manning

Today's business is items 1 and 2. Item 2 is not to commence before 12.15 p.m. if that is agreeable and I thank the Opposition for their co-operation on these matters.

This is the end of the Seanad as it is presently constituted and it has been the second longest Seanad in the history of the State. The 27th Dáil has just ended but this is the 18th Seanad in its present form. The only Seanad that lasted longer was the Seanad of 1938 to 1943 so this one has almost run its full term.

This has been a unique Seanad in that there has been a change of Government during its lifetime and it has seen Senators cross the floor to different positions in an orderly way. We have even had a colleague cross the floor and move back again. The smooth transition speaks volumes for the level of co-operation and the civilised relationships in the House, and the change was effected with the minimum disruption. I wish to record my grateful thanks to the Opposition and particularly Senators Wright, Fitzgerald and O'Toole for their co-operation in making the work of the House possible in unusual circumstances.

The quality of debate and input to legislation during the lifetime of the Seanad has been extremely high. A number of important Bills bear the imprint of this House which improved them greatly. We had a number of important initiatives during the lifetime of the House. It will be a time of change during the next Seanad, whoever is in Government, but we have shown we are ready for and capable of change and we are not afraid to face the challenges which may lie ahead.

I join with the Cathaoirleach in remembering three wonderful people who died during the lifetime of the Seanad. All three deaths were sudden and unexpected. We all have warm and happy memories of our colleagues, Gordon Wilson, Seán Fallon and Liam Naughten, three of nature's gentlemen.

Like the Cathaoirleach, I thank the staff of the House. I also thank the media for the good and honest coverage of the proceedings of this House. We all feel the coverage should be more extensive but at least the coverage during this session, especially on "Oireachtas Report" and in The Irish Times, has been fair and accurate. We cannot ask for more than that.

I wish all colleagues well. I wish every success, God speed and good luck to those who aspire to go to a lower place by standing for election to the other House. I also send my heartfelt good luck to those who seek the honour of serving in this House again. I thank colleagues for their co-operation.

Mr. Wright

I thank the Leader for his kind remarks at the close of this Seanad, which should be seen as a successful one. As the Leader pointed out, there have been many changes during its lifetime, including the unique handover of power. Legislation benefited from the numbers in the House and the kind response of Ministers. The legislation is better as a result of the many amendments made here.

I will remember this Seanad for the deaths of three distinguished colleagues, Gordon Wilson and two Cathaoirligh, Liam Naughten and Seán Fallon, who were personal friends to us all.

I thank the Leader and all those who helped me during my term as Leader of the House and in Opposition. I pay special tribute to two of my colleagues, Senator Mullooly, who was Chief Whip during my time as Leader, and Senator Fitzgerald, who is Chief Whip in Opposition. Anyone who has played that role realises its importance and the time given by those who accept it. I also thank you, a Chathaoirligh, the Clerk, Clerk Assistant, the staff and press.

I wish all my colleagues who are standing for the Dáil or Seanad the best of good luck. I thank all those I have had the chance to work with for their support and I look forward to seeing everyone again in the next couple of months.

Mr. O'Toole

The Order of Business is agreed. We, on the Independent benches, would like to be associated with the votes of thanks to the Clerk, Clerk Assistant and the other members of staff who have been extraordinarily helpful and overworked during the past few years. We are not the employers of the staff of the House but we should recognise the effort it takes to deal with 200 amendments to a Bill between 10 p.m. and 2 in the morning. That might be a slight exaggeration but the work they do is extraordinary, in terms of volume and the focus required to get it right. I appreciate it and, as an Independent Member of the House, I also appreciate the evenhanded advice of staff which has always been available to all sides of the House. They are very fair and, although I am probably one of the more awkward people with which they must deal, I appreciate their effort.

I remember with sadness the events which brought the Cathaoirleach into office, and also remember his two predecessors and Senator Gordon Wilson. It has been a sad time but they will always be in our memories and we have paid due tribute to them.

I support the points made by both Senator Wright and the Leader. I thank them both and those who support them, especially the Whips. I also thank my parish colleague, Senator Fitzgerald for the co-operation shown to us over the term of this Seanad and my colleague Senator Ross who not only changed sides twice but also moved up and down twice on this side and who at all times kept teachers in focus with that great and unwavering love for them which he has always shown.

This has been an extraordinarily useful Seanad. When the history of Seanad Éireann is written, the impact this one has made on legislation will be seen to have been tremendous. I felt a great sense of relief yesterday when the Supreme Court rejected the Employment Equality Bill, as it no doubt will the Equal Status Bill. Despite the protestations of the Minister for Equality and Law Reform that it was rejected for the wrong reason, I do not care whether I win by a goal or a point so long as teachers are protected from that abominable legislation which I hope will not be repeated.

This has been a very good Seanad. It is the first time in my ten years as a Member that Ministers, because of the numbers in the House, had to listen to arguments and to show flexibility and reasonableness. Ministers were able to tell their advisers that certain decisions were political and outline the way they wanted things done. This has been good for Ministers as it has allowed them to "find their oats", as it would be said in another business. It has brought the best from many of them and has been very helpful and progressive.

Coverage of the House by the press has been very good and we should compliment RTÉ and The Irish Times which continuously cover the Seanad. I again appeal to The Examiner and the Irish Independent to reconsider their coverage.

I start my election campaign by asking all graduates of NUI colleges to consider me as their highest option when they receive their ballot papers.

Mr. Manning

Likewise.

Mr. O'Toole

More importantly, we have discussed the issues of constitutional reform and I hope the people of this House who stand for election, either to the Dáil, Seanad or other places, carry themselves with dignity and I wish them well. I hope the undemocratic nature of Seanad representation in elections will be addressed between now and the next election so that colleagues of ours in third level, who are disenfranchised because they are from different universities, will be included to create an extended franchise.

I thank the Cathaoirleach for his courtesy at all times and my colleague, Senator Mullooly, the Leas-Chathaoirleach, and I wish him well. I thank people on all sides and the staff of the House for their support.

Mr. McAughtry

I am glad of the opportunity to say a few words about my experience here. I have had a good many experiences in my lifetime. I have been lucky and unlucky. I have experienced many lows and highs. My experience here would certainly go down as one of the highest points of my life because of the hunger I have, coming from the North, for democracy and all its aspects and benefits. This is what I have experienced here in the past 15 months.

I am full of admiration for those who nominated me for this post but I wonder if they knew anything about me. I do not have a reputation for respecting the man in charge. I was like a fish out of water in the Northern Ireland Civil Service with all its hierarchical ranks and the lickspittling that goes on in that sort of organisation in order to get on in life. I came here full of admiration that anyone would take a chance with me not knowing what I was liable to say in the House. I spent the first six months watching, listening and lapping it up.

We had a Unionist Government in Northern Ireland which was discredited for a number of reasons. However, the one good thing one could say about it was that its Ministers were accessible. This was a wonderful benefit. Ministers and those in the Oireachtas who hold the reins of power are accessible. This is true democracy.

Three quarters of a century have elapsed since independence. The South has grown apart from the North. However, I have witnessed a bridge in terms of Border colleagues who speak with the same voice as me. I have been able to sit and reflect on history and on what the future holds. I hope the future will hold good in Northern Ireland under the British Government and this enlightened country.

Despite comments I have made in support of my political views, I have enormous admiration for the way both sides in this House co-operate. I hope we will achieve full democracy in Northern Ireland similar to this State and I hope the apparatus of law and order will be supported by all the people. I have enjoyed my stay in this House and thank Senators for the courtesy shown to me and the true and warm friendship I have experienced.

Mr. Lanigan

A Chathaoirligh, thank you for the courtesy you have shown to all Members during your time in office. We have never abused you or departed from the rules of the Order of Business. I hope you will be back in the Chair again and that all Senators will be back in this House if they do not aspire to the other House.

Senator McAughtry has been a Member of the House for 15 months. I do not agree with his politics but I agree with much of what he says. He has addressed this House in a reasonable manner and I hope his time here has given him a better understanding of those of us who hold an opposing political view.

I thank Senators and the staff of the House for their courtesy. We should not hold up the Minister for too long. Anyone with sense will ensure that the Prompt Payments Bill will pass in ten seconds.

Mr. Ross

I hope that was not Senator McAughtry's farewell speech. Let us hope he is back under whatever type of Government is elected on 5 June. When Senator O'Toole puts on his trade union hat he normally does not speak for all the Independent Senators. However, on this occasion I agree with his comments about the staff of the House. We are unanimous on that. Their help is not only appreciated but vital. If the truth be known they do far more work on the drafting and amendments to Bills than Senators. We are very grateful for that.

I will raise one serious issue with the Leader. Before the Taoiseach gets completely and utterly consumed in the election campaign, will he address a problem in his own constituency of Meath? Five miles north-west of Navan the most appalling vandalism has taken place in the last few days. An ancient historic site has been destroyed by bulldozers. The site is 2,500 years old and the Tailteann games were held there. It is a matter of extraordinary concern that a national monument such as this was bulldozed, apparently to the ignorance of the county council and with no interference from the relevant Department. We have a Heritage Council and many quangos whose tasks include preserving historic sites. However, it seems nothing was done to prevent the destruction of this site.

Nevertheless, there is hope. It is not too late to rescue the site. A small amount of the mound remains and it can be rescued and restored. The least the State should do is acquire the site immediately. Its destruction appears to have been the result of a series of ill informed mistakes. A remedy is possible and I ask the Leader to tell the Minister for Arts, Culture and the Gaeltacht and the Taoiseach that the Seanad regards this as a matter of urgency which could be remedied before the general election.

Mr. Farrell

I endorse the praise that has been expressed for the Leader of the House, the Cathaoirleach and the Leader of the Opposition. The House has worked smoothly and efficiently as a result of their combined efforts. I also thank the staff of the House, particularly the ushers who do a great job looking after the visitors we invite to the House. They are also most helpful when people call and they go to trouble beyond the call of duty to ensure the relevant Members are contacted.

I wish to pay a special tribute to the Northern Ireland Senators who were Members of the House over the past ten years. They offered us great insight into Northern Ireland and our debates on that subject were the better for it. I have no doubt that we helped to contribute a small measure of peace to the North, regardless of what others might say. The northern and southern views have been represented in the Seanad and they have informed discussions about the problem in a clear and forthright manner.

I wish candidates for the Dáil every success in the election. However, I make a special appeal to teachers and university lecturers to encourage the youth to vote. There appears to be an awful cynicism about politics on the part of the youth and it is encouraged by the media. Members who went to Mozambique and other countries to monitor their elections realise how much the native populations appreciated their right to vote, often for the first time. Ireland is a democracy but people often do not exercise their vote. It is up to every political leader to encourage people to vote, regardless of who benefits from it.

I wish a safe journey to each Member of the House who will be on the circuit of Ireland hoping to secure re-election to the Seanad. It is a hazardous business. Drive carefully and le cúnamh Dé, beimíd go léir ar ais arís.

Mr. Mooney

Senator Farrell sounded a little like me on the radio when I say goodnight at the end of a programme. Perhaps he has a future in broadcasting should he decide to choose an alternative profession.

I concur with the comments of my colleagues. However, I wish to raise a matter with the Leader of the House, despite this being the final day of this Seanad. I was extremely disturbed by a report in the Sunday Observer which stated that the association of frozen food manufacturers intends to add large quantities of water to processed fish without including that information on the label. Sadly, a substantial amount of frozen fish is imported into this country even though there are excellent Irish products. Since fish fingers are part of the stable diet of many school children, if this initiative is allowed to proceed unchecked it could have serious implications for the national diet. This may appear to be a frivolous issue but I have reflected on it in recent days and this is my final opportunity to raise it in a national forum. I ask the Leader to convey my concern to the Minister for Health. Many people would share my concern if they were aware of this initiative which emanated from the United Kingdom. Permission is being sought to add large quantities of water to frozen fish, particularly fish fingers, without stating that fact on the package.

As a Border Senator, irrespective of what Government is returned after the election, I hope it will ensure that both sides of the divide and the two traditions in Northern Ireland continue to be represented in the House. My friend and colleague, Senator Lanigan, said he did not agree with Senator McAughtry's politics but he admired much of what he said. The only difference between Senator McAughtry, Senator Lanigan, me and others is that we are Irish Nationalists and he is an Irish Unionist. However, although that is a fundamental division, more unites us than divides us.

My colleagues and I did not vote for Senator McAughtry but we have come to admire his fearless stand on many issues. He has said unpopular things but he has also made points which needed to be made to inform and educate a Southern Nationalist electorate which has not always appreciated the genuine fears and concerns of the Unionist community in Northern Ireland. If there is to be a political settlement on this island, we must learn to understand and appreciate the concerns of that section of the population who will live among us without comprising our basic beliefs and attitudes. I hope whatever Administration is returned will ensure that there is continued representation in the House of the two traditions in Northern Ireland. The House is enhanced and gifted by their presence.

In common with my colleagues, I wish everybody well in the forthcoming election.

Mr. Manning

From what I have read and heard from Professor George Eogan, I agree with Senator Ross about what happened in County Meath. I will contact the Minister for Arts, Culture and the Gaeltacht and the Taoiseach's Office immediately after the Order of Business to ask if something can be salvaged from those events.

I also agree with Senator Ross and everybody else in hoping that Senator McAughtry returns to the House after the election. All Members were impressed by his contribution this morning.

Senator Mooney raised the addition of water to fish. If the Senator gives me the specific report I will bring it to the attention of the Director of Consumer Affairs and the Minister.

Order of Business agreed to.