Seanad Éireann debate -
Thursday, 10 Jul 1997

Vol. 151 No. 14

Registration of Title (Amendment) Bill, 1997: Second and Subsequent Stages.

Question proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform (Mr. O'Donoghue)

I thank Senators for agreeing to the sitting of the House to facilitate debate on this short, technical but important Bill. I know that many Members have other pressing commitments in the election for Seanad Éireann. Having recently been involved in the general election I appreciate that being here represents a major intrusion on Members' valuable time and again I register my thanks to them.

The decision to decentralise part of the Land Registry to Waterford was announced by the then Taoiseach, Deputy Albert Reynolds, on 4 November 1992 and I am greatly honoured that it falls to me as Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform to introduce the legislation to provide the necessary legal framework for this decision to be brought into effect.

It is hardly necessary to stress the importance of a proper system of land registration. The importance of proper legal title to land is something to which Irish people are greatly attached. We have one of the highest rates of home ownership in Europe and for the vast majority of people the purchase of their own home ranks as their highest priority. In rural areas the need for accurate recording and registration of holdings is of great importance.

It is a tribute to those who work in the Land Registry and Registry of Deeds and the professional way in which business has been done over the years that public confidence in the institution has never wavered and that possession of title deeds verified by the Land Registry is accepted by all as valid proof of title.

Having practised as a solicitor I am aware of complaints that have been made of delays in the Land Registry in processing dealings and I was very pleased to learn as part of an overall briefing on the operations of my Department that delays have been substantially reduced in recent years. For example, in 1990 the average time for processing applications for registration was about six months. In April 1997 the average time was down to two months. Considering that since 1990 the annual number of transactions lodged in the Land Registry has increased from about 220,000 to about 300,000, the improvements can be clearly seen.

I want to take this opportunity to place on record the appreciation of all users of the registries — solicitors and the general public — for the work done by the Registrar of Titles and her staff and for the improvements which have taken place. It is appropriate for me now to pay tribute to the registrar and her staff for the high level of expertise, efficiency and competence which they bring to bear on their work. The fact that in 1980 there were 565 staff dealing with about 222,000 applications and that today there are 515 staff dealing with 300,000 applications bears ample testament to their selfless dedication and commitment. The service has improved and continues to improve. These improvements have taken place with the co-operation and wholehearted involvement of staff at all levels of the registries.

I would not want it thought that the improvements which have taken place represent the end of the matter: far from it. The registrar and her staff, with the interim board, have plans and proposals in place which will bring about further improvements and improve the service to the public. The Government is determined to ensure that progress is made in creating a customer driven environment in the public service in general and the achievements of the Land Registry and Registry of Deeds will be a headline for others to follow.

The future status of the registries has to be considered by the Government. In that context the interim board, registrar and staff, have done a great amount of work on proposals for a new status. I will be examining these proposals with a view to an early discussion with my colleagues in Government and as soon as a decision is taken I will make a public announcement of the Government's intentions.

The Land Registry operation in Waterford will involve about 140 staff transferring there to deal with work concerning Counties Kerry, Cork, Limerick, Waterford, Laois, Offaly, Carlow, Tipperary, Wexford and Kilkenny. The transfer of staff will take place on a phased basis beginning during August and completed by September. Staff are being trained at present and I know that the professional standards to which I have already referred will be maintained.

I am aware that some members of the legal profession are uneasy about the change and their concerns have been conveyed to me. I am satisfied that there will be no reduction in the level of service provided and that with the use of modern technology and means of communication difficulties can be kept to a minimum. The registrar has communicated regularly with members of the legal profession practising in the counties concerned to keep them informed of the position and I am sure that any teething problems which might arise will be promptly dealt with.

To those members of the legal profession who have expressed misgivings because of the possible inconvenience of travelling to Waterford rather than Dublin, can I say that I have no doubt that the policy of decentralisation is correct. While there might be some minor change to work patterns, I am fully satisfied that the benefits for everyone involved — staff moving to decentralised locations and existing communities — are enormous. The revitalisation of communities and the increased economic activity are extremely beneficial to all.

I invite anyone who has any doubts about this to visit my own constituency of Kerry South — where about 140 staff of the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform are based in Killarney — to see the operation there for themselves. The facilities there are first class and no difficulty has arisen with work being done there which was previously done in Dublin. I ask those people who have misgivings to co-operate fully with the change.

If there is any doubt about the willingness of civil servants to co-operate fully with decentralisation, the fact that over 1,000 applications for transfer to Waterford were received should dispel these doubts. It is my view that future decentralisation of parts of Government Departments from Dublin should take place and I intend to vigorously pursue opportunities for further decentralisations. Today is an extremely important and good day for Waterford. The economic and social fabric of the city and its environs will be improved as a result of the decision to decentralise there under this legislation.

I want to turn now to the details of the Bill itself, which is a short one. The main purpose of the Bill is to amend the Registration of Title Act, 1964, to provide the necessary legislative basis for the decentralisation of part of the Land Registry to Waterford. The law relating to the registration of land is governed by the 1964 Act, section 7 of which provides that there shall be a central office located in the county borough of Dublin and a local office in each county other than Dublin. This central office is to be the office for registration of all land in the State.

Following the Government's decision to decentralise certain operations of the Land Registry to Waterford it becomes necessary, in order to provide a clear legal basis for the move, to amend section 7 of the 1964 Act. The necessary amendments, which the Bill before the House will effect, will essentially provide for the establishment of constituent offices of the central office which will carry out the work currently performed by the central office under the 1964 Act. The result of this change will be that the functions currently carried out by the central office of the Land Registry will be regionalised through the establishment of constituent offices in Dublin and outside Dublin. While the Land Registry will continue to consist of a central office and local offices, the Bill's effect will be that the central office will not be a physical entity but will be made up of constituent offices, to be located in Dublin, and in any county so designated by an order made by me as Minister. This will permit the designation of Waterford as an area within which a constituent office may be located.

I will briefly deal with each section of the Bill. Section 1 amends section 7 of the 1964 Act in two respects. First, it substitutes a new subsection for subsection (1) to provide that the central office of the Land Registry will consist of one or more constituent offices to be located in Dublin and in any other area which the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform may, by order, designate. There will continue to be local offices in each county, other than Dublin, and any county where a constituent office is located. Second, it adds a new subsection, subsection (5), which gives the Minister the necessary power to make, or revoke, an order designating any county as an area within which a constituent office will be located. Because the Dublin office will service the greater Dublin area, there will be no need to establish a local office within any of the three administrative counties of South Dublin, Fingal or Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown. Neither will it be necessary to have one in any county where there is a constituent office.

Section 2 of the Bill deals with transitional provisions so that the central office of the Land Registry, currently located in Dublin in accordance with section 7 of the 1964 Act, will become a constituent office under the terms of the amended section 7. The section states that the central office of the Land Registry, which is located in the county borough of Dublin, will become, after the passing of this Bill, a constituent office or constituent offices of the central office in the county borough.

Section 3 of the Bill simply provides that the short title will be the Registration of Title (Amendment) Act, 1997, and also states that it will be construed as one with the 1964 Act.

Those are the terms of the Bill. It is a short Bill but an important one. Without it the proposed decentralisation of parts of the Land Registry to Waterford could have given rise to the need for cumbersome and expensive procedures to ensure compliance with the 1964 Act as regards the location of the central office. That would also have raised doubts about our commitment to genuine decentralisation by requiring certain operations in relation to the registration of land in the counties to be dealt with from Waterford to otherwise remain in Dublin. With this Bill we will ensure that there is genuine decentralisation and that there is a proper legal basis for it.

I commend the Bill to the House and I am confident that given the commitment, expertise and vigour of the staff involved, the decentralisation of part of the Land Registry to Waterford will be a success.

Mr. Manning

I welcome the Minister to the House and congratulate him on his appointment. I have known him since he became a Member of the other House and he and I have spent many an evening together, discussing many aspects, arcane and otherwise, of Irish politics. I know he will bring to the job his vigour, concern and considerable intellectual expertise. I wish him well in one of the most onerous positions of Government.

My only criticism of this Bill is that we are being asked to take it today. The process which this Bill facilitates has been under way since 1992. The Bill is short and technical. We have no quibble with its principle — decentralisation is good in itself and is welcomed by the people who avail of the chance to work in the less crowded, perhaps healthier atmosphere of large county towns. It also ensures that the users of services such as the Land Registry can avail of them closer to home. I support the Bill.

Mr. Farrell

Ba mhaith liom fáilte a chur chuig an Aire go dtí an Teach. I welcome the Minister and I am sure he will do a good job with his portfolio in dealing with crime.

I welcome the Bill. As an auctioneer I know the long delays involved in completing sales because of the overcrowding and the amount of work dealt with by the Land Registry. Moving offices out to the counties will reduce this delay but it is important that the main office should remain. We in Sligo know what the decentralisation of part of the Department of Social Welfare has done for Sligo town. Decentralisation is a good thing but it is important that there be a central Land Registry.

I saw a television programme about land registration in Florida, where it can be done on a "quickie" basis. This has led to a racket — people register land they do not own and use fictitious signatures. It costs the owners of the land a lot of money to get it back, and in the meantime the people who falsely register the land have obtained huge mortgages on it. Thankfully we do not have that problem because of the efficient way the Land Registry works. Although some people say land registration takes too long, it is extremely important and has always been done well in Ireland. It will be done even more efficiently now in the new offices in Waterford and other counties because people will be able to go into a local office and there will be a more "hands-on" approach, which will be to the benefit of all concerned. I welcome and recommend the Bill.

Mr. Sherlock

Ba mhaith liom fáilte a chur roimh an Aire. I know he will take his responsibilities seriously. I have known him for many years, have worked with him on the health board and have seen his performance in latter times.

Of course, decentralisation is welcome and, in particular, decentralisation of the Land Registry offices. For many years I have been representing people who ask to have the registration of title expedited for the simple reason that before full title to property is approved by lending agencies in most cases one finds that people must find accommodation for bridging finance. The fact that in 1980 556 staff dealt with 222,000 cases and today 515 staff are dealing with 300,000 cases speaks for itself. One has to ask whether that is practical. The answer is, it is not. In 1996 and 1997 I had occasion to have a matter expedited in the land registry because a friend of mine, in the Minister's county, asked me to do so. I was really up against a stone wall. It is unreasonable that little or no progress had taken place for almost 12 months.

My main point, and I am sure it has been stated by others, is that Land Registry is a very important service. I support decentralisation, preferably to Cork, and I ask the Minister to clarify the role of a constituent office. For instance, Cork is a constituent office and Dublin will be a constituent office. I ask him to have the importance of Land Registry dealings in regard to house purchase expedited. I am sure he will take it on board.

Mr. Cassidy

I congratulate the Minister on his appointment and wish him well. I hope it will be for a long time. He is a dynamic man and many people are watching him to see his work in action.

I welcome the Bill and, as previous speakers said, decentralisation is a fantastic opportunity for rural Ireland and, on this occasion, for Waterford to benefit from. I look forward to a time maybe when Mullingar can benefit from decentralisation in the long-term as well.

Mr. Quinn

I welcome the Bill. I have some thoughts on it which I will put to the Minister. I hope I will be able to play a part in recognising the importance of information technology and how it could take place in this Bill. I welcome the Minister to the House and congratulate him on his appointment. I wish him and the Bill well.

It is fundamentally about decentralisation and moving the headquarters of the Land Registry to Waterford. I strongly believe in the principle of decentralisation. Some people might say we have been talking about decentralisation and avoiding the bureaucracy for as long as we have been talking about draining the Shannon — which is a long time before any of us came here -and let us prove it, technology has now moved decisively in favour of decentralisation. It makes possible a level of decentralisation that nobody would have dared even to suggest ten years ago, whatever about a generation ago. For that reason decentralisation is an idea that is finally here. It is now realistic to talk about total decentralisation of all Government backed office operations. When it comes to the routine work of day-to-day administration no compelling reason demands any more that this must be done. There is no compelling reason the administration has to be done where the policy is made. I am talking here about administration and policy. Neither is there any compelling reason all the administration of a Government Department has to be done in the one place. On the other hand there are tremendous advantages in moving office operations out of the capital in a way that would have not been possible only a few years ago. Even a small section of a Department could totally regenerate and rejuvenate a small town. Apart from the morale boosts spending those salaries within the area provides a boost for many local business.

I would like the new Government to set definite targets for decentralisation for the next five years. There has never been a better time to do it and never a greater need to do it when small towns in many rural areas are on the brink of losing their whole viability. I know that is under threat and the communities under threat (CUT) has recognised this as urgent and it needs that recognition. Let me add a word of caution. There is little point in embracing decentralisation except in the context of information technology. We would have seriously failed to exploit the possibilities of decentralisation if we simply transferred 19th century administration from one part of the country to another and moving the Land Registry to Waterford is a particular place in point. I applaud the move and support this legislation which enables that to take place. I hope we will not end up with a nationwide network of land registries that blithely carry on their work as if information technology did not exist. Information technology makes it possible to have the entire Land Registry fully up-to-date, available to every citizen in every public library in the country. It is now technically possible to have a Land Registry that is directly searchable, directly from solicitors' offices. Everybody who has gone through the trouble and the expense of buying or selling a house will appreciate we are talking about a revolution in the quality of service which can be provided to the public and a revolution in the speed at which that service can be provided.

Modernising the Land Registry is something that can be made to pay for itself. It should be regarded as a fully commercial project with separate investment capital and a short payback time. It is something that could even be farmed out to the private sector on a contract basis for the period of the transition and then brought back within the Government fold when it is up and running.

The Fianna Fáil manifesto in the recent general election had much to say about rural development. It also had much to say about the information technology, some of it was new but much of it was very exciting. My hope is that the vision of the manifesto will be acted on and not forgotten. How vigorously the Government acts on decentralisation will be a good test in both these important areas. I welcome the Bill and in doing so I hope the move to Waterford will be seen as the beginning of a new period of change in the future of the Land Registry, not the end of it. I welcome it, I wish it well and the Minister should be congratulated on moving it.

Acting Chairman (Mr. Dardis)

I congratulate Deputy O'Donoghue on his appointment as Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform. I wish him a long and successful tenure of office.

Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform (Mr. O'Donoghue)

Thank you, a Chathaoirligh. I am deeply grateful for the very kind good wishes and expressions of congratulations from all contributors. I suppose I would be forgiven for specifically referring to the remarks of Senator Fitzgerald who is from my constituency. It is necessary for me to place on record my appreciation for the warmth of his support and friendship inside and outside the constituency of Kerry South. I thank Senators for their contributions. It is unlikely that any legislation I bring before the new Seanad will be as relatively unpretentious. I will, of course, bring the remarks made by Senators in the course of the debate to the attention of the Registrar of Titles. As I said at the outset, decisions remain to be taken about the future organisation of the Land Registry and its status. This will form part of a heavy programme of administrative reform which I will undertake and will include a new court service and prison authority. The technical nature of the measure before the House is important to see this Bill in the context of a policy of decentralisation. Our Programme for Government contains a commitment on decentralisation. There is a growing realisation that, as Senator Quinn pointed out, with modern technology marked barriers that existed before now can be overcome.

I will now deal with the points raised by Senators. Senator Manning wondered why I introduced this legislation today. The principal reason is that we hope to move the office to Waterford in August and to have it up and running in September. I cannot account for why the Bill was not introduced earlier but the general election might have had a part to play in the delay. Senator Sherlock asked what was meant by a "constituent office". It is intended that the constituent office will form part of the central office of the Land Registry and will deal with specific counties. The constituent office will be interlocked, as it were, with the central office in Dublin.

Senator Quinn referred to information technology. I agree the availability of such technology has broken down geographical barriers and opened opportunities for rural areas in terms of their economic and social enhancement. The Government's commitment to decentralisation was outlined in the Fianna Fáil manifesto and I intend to actively pursue the policy in my Department. The Land Registry already has information technology and many major projects are currently under consideration. I intend to introduce these projects in due course to ensure the Land Registry has the modern facilities and technology to enable it to do its job effectively for the people whom it is designed to serve.

I thank Senators for their participation in the debate. While this is a short Bill with limited ambitions, it is worthwhile. I thank Senators for their support and I appreciate the Seanad sitting today to consider these important matters. Senators are in the middle of a Seanad election, which is an awesome task. I wish them well in the election and thank them for putting the community before themselves by their presence today.

Question put and agreed to.

Bill put through Committee, reported without amendment, received for final consideration and passed.