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Seanad Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 26 Nov 1997

Vol. 152 No. 15

Order of Business.

Today's Order of Business is items 1, 2, 3, 4 and 8, Motion 10, regarding the county tourism committees, which will be taken from 6 to 8 p.m. Items 1, 2 and 3 are to be taken without debate. The contribution of spokespersons on item 4 will not exceed 20 minutes and in the case of all other Senators, 15 minutes. Senators may share their time.

We do not have a problem with the Order of Business. However, may I ask the Leader of the House a question in view of the recent arrests and appearances before certain courts of people on serious drug offences who had to be released because they had not been presented before a properly designated District Justice? This shows up a serious systems failure in the Department of Justice. Will the Leader ask the Minister for Justice to give an explanation to this House in relation to these matters as he did in the Dáil?

I doubt if we can agree to item 3 on the Order of Business. We have not yet had a chance to discuss it together. It is something to which I, personally, feel we cannot agree. I can understand the Leader wanting to make the Order of Business as efficient as possible, but there may be occasions on which it would be inadvisable to have this 30 minute rule.

Will the Leader again ask the Minister for Health and Children if he would produce the guidelines for dealing with raped, pregnant and suicidal 13 year olds? In the Dáil the Minister said guidelines and protocols existed which the health board has brought into operation in the case which is now before the courts. I have not been able to obtain these guidelines and I asked the Leader last week if he could obtain them for me. I would be grateful if he would. While suicide is not a danger in pregnancies which are wanted, it is not true that it is not a danger in unwanted pregnancies. There is plenty of literature on that matter and I would like to be sure the health boards are taking this into account.

We find some difficulty agreeing to item 3 as well.

The Senator agreed to it.

I do not think we can agree with the proposal that the Order of Business should not exceed 30 minutes. I would like to hear the Leader explain why he thinks we should embark on this particular course. As we know, there is a large number of Members who, from time to time, are anxious to get information and the Order of Business provides an opportunity for them to do so.

Will the Leader facilitate us with a debate on unemployment in the food sector? We have had serious announcements concerning the loss of 750 jobs in Avonmore both in Dungarvan and in Rathfarnham in Dublin. Traffic problems was the reason given for the loss of jobs in Rathfarnham, but that is nonsensical. We need a full scale debate on that matter and I would appreciate it if the Leader would facilitate that.

I ask the Leader to bring to the attention of the Minister for Tourism, Sport and Recreation the proposals by the management of Wimbledon Football Club to relocate in Dublin which the FAI believes would destroy the League of Ireland. The reason for doing so is financial. Mr. Murdoch wants to put Dublin on the map in terms of Sky Sports. The football world is concerned about this matter. Perhaps the Minister will come to the House and debate the matter where a club from Britain could dominate the market here.

I appeal to all Senators to confine their contributions to matters relevant to the Order of Business.

I understood that agreement was reached on item 3 at the Committee on Procedure and Privileges. Something must be done to tighten up the Order of Business. I know you, a Chathaoirligh, have endeavoured to ensure that debates do not take place on the Order of Business and that we confine ourselves to what is on the Order Paper. That must be commended.

There have been many criticisms about the delay in publishing official reports. However, official reports have been speedily produced in recent weeks. The people responsible should be congratulated and get the plaudits they deserve because they have been criticised often enough in the past.

Job losses, particularly those in Avonmore, are a matter of serious concern. My understanding is that the severance package being negotiated is voluntary and is generous by any standards. It will ensure our dairy industry is competitive on international markets. While it is unfortunate that people should lose their jobs, the wider national benefit dictates that the Avonmore-Waterford group takes this course of action. It will ensure that those who lose their jobs are well looked after.

I will not allow a debate on item 3 on the Order of Business. The Leader of each group agreed to place this motion on the Order Paper at the Committee on Procedure and Privileges.

I ask the Leader for a debate on whether we should continue to hold professional boxing fights here in which both fighters are managed by the same person who also promotes the event. This is a recipe for disaster and it is only puts money in the pockets of people such as Mr. Hearn and Mr. Eastwood.

I would also like a debate on the 50th anniversary of the setting up of the state of Israel which occurred on 29 November 1947. It is one of only two states which was set up by vote at the United Nations. However, there were more abstentions than voters at that meeting. The advice given by President Truman and others was to "get them off our backs". Unfortunately, that has not happened for other peoples. There is a need to address this issue as a matter of urgency. It is a matter of concern for Ireland because we are involved through our participation in UNIFIL, UNWRA and other bodies.

We should have a debate on the Middle East in general, and the situation in Palestine and Palestinian-Israeli relations in particular, as close as possible to 29 November, which is next Saturday.

The Minister for Education and Science has announced he is bringing forward legislation to deal with school truancy which will have particular regard to the outer suburbs of west Dublin. Will the Leader convey to the Minister my delight that he is doing so and ask him to include a provision, for which I have asked for ten years as a member of a local authority, under which gardaí would not be school truancy officers in the outer fringes of Dublin? That is why we have the present problem. The appointment of school attendance officers should not be left to a local authority which is underfunded. If we, like Dublin Corporation, had school attendance officers, we would not have such a problem today. I wish the Minister well with the legislation and ask the Leader to take that on board.

I hope, being a new Senator, that I am not going entirely outside the Order the Business but I am sure you will tell me if I am, a Chathaoirligh.

We will tell the Senator.

I beg your indulgence on this matter.

We must confine ourselves to matters relevant to the Order of Business. There are Standing Orders which allow Senators the opportunity to raise matters in other ways. I appeal to Senators to avail of the opportunities presented by those Standing Orders and raise matters on the Adjournment, as matters of concern to Senators or as Private Members' business. I cannot allow speeches on the Order of Business. Next Senators will be issuing scripts of what they said on the Order of Business.

It is already being done.

I appeal to Senator Ó Murchú to be in order on the Order of Business.

I am hoping that it may come under the heading of recreation. It is a matter of grave concern which I want to bring to the notice of the Leader of the House. I hope he, in turn, will bring it to the notice of the appropriate Minister.

There is a very thin line between satire and blasphemy. I believe that line was breached on "The Late, Late Show" last Friday night. It is totally unacceptable in a country which is largely Christian, North and South, that we must be subjected to what happened on "The Late, Late Show" because it is not right.

That is not relevant to the Order of Business. The Seanad has no control over what is or is not included on "The Late, Late Show" or any other show.

Will he relay a message to the appropriate Minister? All I am asking——

I will allow you to ask the Leader of the House to convey your concern on this matter to the relevant Minister.

He is not fully aware of what my concern is unless I am allowed to enunciate it.

Surely consorting with the Moonies runs quite close to blasphemy too — saying that Jesus Christ was the illegitimate son of Zachary. We could take this further, if we want to.

In fairness——

If the Senator wants to get into a debate, let us do so.

This debate is out of order. This is an example of what will happen if we do not confine ourselves to matters which are relevant to the Order of Business. Senator Ó Murchú, I have allowed you to raise the matter which you wished to raise.

A former Taoiseach consorting with the Moonies.

The Senator should relax and go back to the south-east.

Having raised it, I have made a decision that it is not relevant to the Order of Business and I am calling the next speaker.

On a point of order——

This is relevant to the Order Paper.

Senator Ó Murchú on a point of order.

It is strange that I was allowed to make a contribution of two sentences on this matter while Members on the Opposition benches made contributions of ten sentences. That is unfair.

That is not a point of order.

The matter I wish to raise relates to the Scientific and Technological Education (Investment) Fund Bill, 1997. I refer to the protests due to be staged tomorrow by students from plc colleges in respect of funding they did not receive for their courses. These protests will take place in Galway, Dublin, Cork and Limerick. Some students have been forced to abandon their courses because they cannot pay their fees. Will the Minister for Education and Science release the funding promised by the Government to enable students to continue their education? I know two young students who have already been forced to pull out of their courses because their parents could not afford to pay their fees. I am also familiar with students who have been obliged to take part-time work to pay for their education. This matter is relevant because I would not like those students to be forced to take to the streets tomorrow. I hope the Minister will announce today that the funds will be made available.

Those of us who work as a technical group on the Independent benches do not have a leader, we have a representative on the Committee on Procedure and Privileges who can make whatever agreements he chooses. We are not bound by such agreements unless consulted prior to their conclusion.

Mr. Cregan

The Senator should inform the relevant Member of that fact.

The Member can read my statement which is now on record. The Independent Senators know how to work together without being supine to each other. We see no need to genuflect to the leader in the way members of political parties do. We are capable of conducting our affairs with a reasonable level of debate and dissent without the need to impose disciplinary Whips on each other.

Will the Leader endeavour to arrange a debate on the appalling sanctions the United States has imposed on its near neighbour Cuba for the past 40 years? We have requested a debate on this matter on a number of occasions.

On a previous occasion Senator O'Toole referred to the desirability of a debate on the success of the education sector. This matter was adverted to earlier in the week by a senior executive of a multinational who stated that our education system is among the best in the world. The same could not be said for Independent Newspapers in the context of the print media. Members involved in the education sector would welcome the opportunity to place on record the achievements of that sector. I appeal to the Leader to allow us to do so.

I support calls for a debate on the 1,200 redundancies announced by Waterford Avonmore. I believe multinationals have a responsibility for the people they employ in countries outside the one in which they are based. Similarly, multinationals from other countries operating in Ireland and Irish multinationals have obligations to their employees abroad. I make no distinctions, multinationals are nasty institutions and they must be monitored. This issue must be debated because the Common Agricultural Policy is the largest anti-competitive cartel in the world.

It is not a multinational.

To use competitiveness as a justification for redundancies is nonsense.

The Senator's statement goes too far.

He is making a speech.

Senator Ryan should try living on a hill in west Cork and make such statements.

In the interests of order, I suggest that Senator Ó Murchú should refer his complaint to the Broadcasting Complaints Commission, which is often inactive, and see what happens.

Will the Leader arrange for a debate on broadcasting in the near future because of the general decline in standards in that industry? This might provide the opportunity sought by Senator Ó Murchú to discuss the blasphemous portrayal of Christ on the "Late Late Show" on Friday evening last. I remind RTÉ — I am sure the DPP is considering the matter — that blasphemy remains a crime under the Constitution. If a debate on broadcasting took place in the near future, we might be afforded the opportunity to discuss these matters in a wider framework than that available on the Order of Business.

Will the Leader of the House ask the Tánaiste and Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment to clarify the present status of the now unoccupied Pretty Polly factory in Killarney, in particular with regard to its ownership? It is a fine 120,000 square foot building on 14 acres which has been unoccupied since 1995. Replacements have been found for industries in other parts of the country which have closed and there is a strong feeling that south County Kerry is being passed over. The matter should be addressed urgently.

The Leader has agreed to an early debate on agriculture. I am concerned about the quality control of imported milk. Milk is being retailed at 79p for two litres and it is not subject to quality control. The debate on agriculture should cover this problem.

I remind the Senator that the statements on agriculture are to be taken this afternoon. That matter may be raised during that debate.

The Leader of the House may consider raising at the Committee on Procedure and Privileges an extension of the number of matters raised on the Adjournment, which may help the Cathaoirleach on the Order of Business. Senators are frustrated that they cannot raise issues which are of concern to them from a vocational or constituency perspective. In the Lower House four matters are discussed on the Adjournment of that House. Such an arrangement might help the Cathaoirelach to rule more firmly on matters if Senators could raise their concerns on the Adjournment. It may provide an alternative to this charade.

Senator Doyle's proposal could be considered at the Committee on Procedure and Privileges and it would greatly assist the Chair if more matters could be taken on the Adjournment.

As one who has faulted many times, I suggest it as a constructive solution.

With regard to the third Statutory Paper laid before the House, referring to the Registrar of Friendly Societies, will the Leader ask the Tánaiste and Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment to use her good offices to urge the registrar to approve the new rules for credit unions drawn up following the legislation passed by the Oireachtas this year? The legislation came into effect on 1 October but the credit unions cannot offer the extensive range of additional services to their members because of a hold up in the rules, resolving which would help many credit unions.

Will the Leader arrange for the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform to attend in the House for a debate on the Refugee Act, 1996, particularly in the light of the intemperate, ill considered and ill-informed remarks made about refugees and asylum seekers by a Member of the Oireachtas in the last couple of days? The remarks would have done justice to Norman Tebbit in the worst days of the Thatcherite Conservatives.

With regard to the Non-Statutory Papers laid before the House, Nos. 3 to 16, which refer to the annual reports of county enterprise boards, will the Leader arrange for an early debate on these annual reports? They cover a wide spectrum and are of interest to Members. It would provide a unique opportunity for the House to debate publicly the affairs of the boards, which do a good job, and would contribute to transparency. Local authorities do not offer the same opportunity and the Parliament is an appropriate place for such a debate. Will the Leader find out if there is a statutory obligation on the area partnership boards and the Leader groups to lay their annual reports before the Oireachtas? If so, the House could also debate them.

I am greatly concerned at the state of well-being of the Almighty if he or she requires the assistance of Senator Ó Murchú or Senator Lydon to protect him or her. I would have thought for somebody omnipotent, it was rather unnecessary.

I support the call by my colleague and friend, Senator Lanigan, on the need for a debate on the Middle East. However, holding such a debate to coincide with the celebration of the founding of the state of Israel is mischievous as this is a friendly state. I would welcome the opportunity to take part in that debate and to make considered criticism of the policy of the present Government. If, however, it was held in a malign atmosphere, I would feel restricted in so doing. I look to the wisdom of the Leader in organising an appropriate time as soon as possible to hold the debate but not mischievously to coincide with the anniversary which, in normal circumstances, would be an opportunity for celebration.

Does the Leader intend instigating a debate on Sunday opening? I note a Bill is before the other House. Members would welcome an opportunity to discuss this matter in light of the fact that British multinationals are using commercial pressure to force Irish companies to open on Sundays against the wishes of many of their employees.

I wish to refer to the establishment of the committees, a matter with which we will deal today. There has been a general welcome for the re-establishment of the committees and, indeed, their proliferation. Will the Leader reassure the House that matters previously covered by a small number of committees will be covered by the increased number? There is concern among my colleagues about the fact that, for example, no committee will cover completely the former Oireachtas Joint Committee on State-sponsored Bodies. In addressing this, perhaps he will reassure the House that at least one committee will be able to investigate and examine the dealings of bodies such as CIE, RTÉ, VHI, ESB, Bord na Móna and Coillte otherwise it would appear that these bodies are so closely tied in with departmental responsibility that they will avoid discussing matters relevant to the Oireachtas.

I promise in future to be as brief as possible but I join with Senator Doyle in saying that there is a natural tendency among Members to wish to raise matters on the Order of Business which may not get ventilated otherwise and, particularly, when the gentlepersons of the press are in the House. I have been asked to inquire of the Leader when item 7 on the Order Paper, the Scientific and Technological Education Investment Fund Bill, 1997, will be taken. I note an Order for Second Stage on the Order Paper.

Will the Leader ask the Minister for the Environment and Local Government to come to the House as a matter of urgency to debate local authority funding? The reason this is urgent is I understand a local authority funding Bill will be initiated in the Dáil shortly. It would benefit the Minister to hear the views of Members of this House, particularly those at the coalface of the problem. In my short time in this House and in politics, this is the greatest problem I have encountered. In my county, local authority members receive £0.25 million towards local improvement schemes but in excess of £8 million is needed to bring schemes up to date. I ask that the Minister come to the House to hear our views. We have been told by the Minister for Finance that the Exchequer is awash with funds so perhaps we will get a proper share of that funding.

Will the Leader bring to the attention of the Minister for Education and Science the farcical situation where education grants are being paid by local authorities to students attending colleges in the UK? I propose that the grants be paid in sterling because of the considerable difference in the exchange rate between it and the punt. When the exchange rate between the two currencies favoured the punt, the Department of Education paid grants in sterling. Will the Leader ask the Minister for Education and Science to clarify the position and ensure the grants are paid in sterling to hard pressed Irish students attending colleges in England?

The Education Bill will be discussed in the House next week; this will provide Members with an opportunity to express their views when the Minister is present.

Senator Connor asked the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform to make a statement in this House similar to that made to the Dáil yesterday. The Minister will be here in two weeks' time when he will be initiating a new Bill, so perhaps the Senator could raise the matter with him then.

As regards Senator Henry's point about health board guidelines, I expect a reply this evening and will inform the House in the morning. As regards the points made by Senators Dardis, Henry and Costello on item 3, I remind Members that this was agreed at the Committee on Procedure and Privileges; it is for a trial period until Christmas. I and the Cathaoirleach, who is Chairman of the Committee on Procedure and Privileges, must know whether we are dealing with a group of Independents or independent individuals because we conduct our business with the Leaders of the groups in good faith. The allocation of committees will take place this evening, and I need to know before 5 p.m. if possible.

Senator Costello expressed concern about the serious traffic congestion in Rathfarnham; I will convey his views to the relevant Minister. I remind the Senator that after the 1991 local elections a significant amount of money to address the situation in that area was rejected by many political parties. The unfortunate residents of that area are suffering the consequences of that regrettable decision made at the time for political advantage. The tourism issue raised by the Senator can be discussed with the Minister for Tourism, Sport and Recreation on the motion in Private Members' time this evening.

Senator Lanigan and Senator Norris asked for a debate on Israel and the Middle East. This is more suited to the Adjournment or, if they wish to pursue it further, we can see if they can be facilitated by having a discussion on it.

No time is left in this session for the many good suggestions coming before the House. I ask Members to use Private Members' time to raise issues. Next week is the turn of the Independent Senators and the week after is the Fine Gael Party's turn. If Members could make these suggestions at their group meetings, prioritise them and bring them before the House, it would help many Senators in their anxiety to have urgent issues discussed.

Senator Ridge raised the issue of schools attendance officers. The Minister for Education and Science will be in the House next week to deal with the Education Bill and the Senator can make this point on Second Stage.

Senator Jackman expressed serious concern about students. We should welcome the Minister's announcement about the provision of £1.5 million for all students of families who hold a medical card to ensure they will not have to pay examination fees. That is very welcome and I am sure the Senator concurs.

It is only for post-leaving certificate students.

Senator Brendan Ryan called for a debate on Cuba. I have no problem with such a debate in principle and I will try to make time available. The Education Bill will be before the House next week and the Senator can raise the matter on Second Stage.

Senator Lydon called for a debate on broadcasting. Senator Mooney and I were spokespersons on broadcasting for a long time and I propose to allocate time for such a debate on Thursday week. Perhaps Senators Ó Murchú and Lydon can express their concerns about last weekend's television programme during that debate.

Senator Coughlan expressed concern about the Pretty Polly factory in Killarney. This matter is more suitable for the Adjournment where the Senator would have time afforded to him as a matter of urgency. The Senator's concerns are shared by the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform and a well known Deputy in south Kerry.

Senator McGowan can discuss his concerns during the agriculture debate. Senator Hayes has raised this issue three or four times. I have afforded plenty of time to discuss the Santer proposals. I encourage Senators to make use of the time available as it may be six months, or even next autumn, before we have another debate on agriculture.

Senator Mooney proposed a debate on the annual report of the county enterprise boards. This is a worthwhile suggestion and perhaps Fianna Fáil will include it in its Private Members' time in the week before Christmas. I will inquire into the annual reports of other programmes including Leader, and I will report back to the Senator.

I will try to facilitate Senator Norris's call for a debate on Sunday trading. This issue has serious implication for family businesses and a Bill on this subject is before the Dáil. RGDATA and others have serious concerns about the 7,200 family stores which survive on whatever business they can attract on Sundays; multinational stores have taken much of the business on the other six days. I am anxious to facilitate the Senator's request.

The select committee is meeting at 5 p.m. to elect the Members of the Seanad to the committees; the names will be announced before the conclusion of business today so that committees can meet from this evening onwards. Senator Norris mentioned that the performances of semi-State companies are not included. I will look at this issue.

Senator Bonner called for a debate on local authority funding. This issue is near and dear to the hearts of every Member and I will discuss it with the Department. The Bill is at a very advanced stage and I will see how I can accede to the Senator's request. Senator Burke referred to the payment of grants in sterling. I will inquire into this matter and get in touch with the Senator.

Order of Business agreed to.
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