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Seanad Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 29 Apr 1998

Vol. 155 No. 7

Housing (Traveller Accommodation) Bill, 1998: Second Stage.

Question proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

Tá áthas orm a bheith anseo ar an ócáid seo chun an Bille a chur ós comhair an Tí. Tá súil agam go mbeidh fáilte ag gach uile daoine roimh na rudaí atá beartaithe ins an mBille.

The primary purpose of this Bill is to provide a legislative framework within which housing authorities will meet the accommodation needs of travellers. The Bill will ensure implementation of the Government's commitment, set out in An Action Programme for the Millennium to create a new deal for travellers. This Bill is a key element of the Government's efforts, on foot of the commitments in that programme and Partnership 2000 to promote social inclusion and equality and to counter discrimination. It is also central to the full implementation of the National Strategy for Traveller Accommodation, which was adopted by the previous Government in 1996. Indeed, at the outset I acknowledge the significant contribution of my predecessor, Deputy McManus, who chaired the Task Force on the Travelling Community up to her appointment as Minister of State.

The need for legislation to ensure more concerted efforts on the part of housing authorities to meeting the accommodation needs of travellers was recognised by the Task Force on the Travelling Community which reported to Government in July 1995. The task force examined a wide range of issues affecting travellers and made a large number of recommendations. On foot of that report, the then Government adopted a national strategy for traveller accommodation in March 1996. The strategy provided for the establishment of a traveller accommodation unit within the housing division of my Department, the establishment of a National Traveller Accommodation Consultative Group and the introduction of amendments to the housing, planning and development, and local government legislative codes to clarify the responsibilities and powers of housing authorities.

The need for this Bill is highlighted by the current accommodation position of travellers and an examination of developments in recent years. Local authorities carry out an annual count of traveller families to ascertain the accommodation position in their functional area. The most recent count, carried out at the end of November 1997, reveals a worrying increase in the number of traveller families on the roadside or in unofficial encampments, from 1,040 at end November 1996 to 1,127 a year later. This increase has occurred despite the efforts of housing authorities to provide more accommodation. Over the past few years, capital funding for the provision of group housing and halting sites for travellers has been increased and housing authorities have been given every encouragement by my Department to bring forward suitable traveller accommodation proposals. The general local authority housing construction programme has also been expanded and maintained at a high level in recent years. Indeed, over the last five years, an additional 849 traveller families have been provided with accommodation with the assistance of housing authorities. Yet, over the same period, the number of traveller families on the roadside or without official accommodation has fallen by only 53, from 1,180 to 1,127 families.

Moreover, the response of housing authorities to the accommodation needs of travellers has been somewhat uneven. While some authorities have made significant progress in reducing the backlog of families awaiting accommodation, the number of traveller families on the roadside continues to increase in other areas. Several factors influence the number of families seeking accommodation in a particular area, including the provision of traveller accommodation, the rate of household formation and changes in migration patterns of travellers, both within Ireland and between Ireland and the United Kingdom.

Many housing authorities have encountered strenuous opposition to proposals for traveller accommodation and it appears that this opposition is increasing in some areas. This Bill will ensure a comprehensive and planned response by housing authorities which will be underpinned by a consultative process.

This Bill will form part of the housing code and it reflects the approach set out in the main provisions of the Housing Acts from the Principal Act of 1996 onwards. The Bill takes account, where appropriate, of the recommendations of the Task Force on the Travelling Community. In drawing up the Bill, my Department availed of the advice of the Attorney General, other Departments, local authorities and traveller organisations. The National Traveller Accommodation Consultative Group, established by my predecessor in December 1996, has also been consulted about the principal provisions of the Bill.

The main provisions of the Bill will require local authorities, in consultation with travellers, to prepare and adopt by a date to be specified five year programmes to meet the existing and projected accommodation needs of travellers in their areas; allow for public input to the preparation and amendment of such programmes; oblige local authorities to take the appropriate steps to secure implementation of the programmes, establish on a statutory basis a national traveller accommodation consultative committee, require local authorities to set up local accommodation consultative committees on which local authority members, officials and travellers will be represented, amend planning legislation to require planning authorities to include objectives concerning traveller accommodation in their county or city development plans; improve powers for local authorities to deal with unauthorised temporary dwellings where alternative serviced accommodation is available or within one mile of existing accommodation regardless of whether alternative accommodation is available; and apply relevant provisions of the Housing (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act, 1997, in respect of the control of antisocial behaviour, to halting sites provided by local authorities or voluntary bodies with the assistance of local authorities.

Part I of the Bill sets out a number of preliminary and general matters, including, in particular, definitions of terms used throughout the Bill. As the Bill, other than sections 25 and 26, is being construed with the Housing Acts, 1966 to 1997, definitions in those Acts also apply, as appropriate.

Part II of the Bill gives an assessment of needs. It sets out the provisions concerning the preparation, adoption and implementation of local traveller accommodation programmes. Section 5 is the interpretation section for Part II. It provides that the 29 county councils, five county boroughs, five borough corporations and Bray and Dundalk Urban District Councils are defined as relevant housing authorities for the purposes of this part of the Bill.

In order to ensure that the five year accommodation programmes are adequate to meet the needs of travellers, it will be necessary to have accurate and reliable information on the needs of each family. Section 6 amends and extends the existing provisions in relation to the assessment of housing needs under section 9 of the Housing Act, 1988, to require that the periodic statutory assessment of needs carried out by relevant housing authorities, that is, those authorities obliged to adopt and implement five year accommodation programmes, take account of the specific needs of travellers and in consultation with travellers.

The existing provisions under the 1988 Act relate to an assessment of housing needs only and do not require assessment of the need for halting sites. There is provision for directions to be issued by the Minister in relation to the conduct of an assessment and the practice has been to issue directions to extend the assessment of needs to include accommodation on halting sites. The proposed amendments, therefore, put current practice on a proper statutory footing.

The amendments also require that regard be had to the need for transient halting sites to facilitate the nomadic lifestyle of travellers on a basis which takes account of the rights and concerns of the whole community. Another important change in this area is the new requirement to assess the needs to accommodate the future growth in traveller families in respect of a period to be defined by the Minister. It is likely that this period will be five years, that is, the period of the first programme. The legislation, therefore, is designed not only to eliminate the current backlog in accommodation but also to prevent a reoccurrence of this situation in a few years' time. Information on the housing needs of travellers held by urban district councils other than Bray and Dundalk Urban District Councils must be supplied to the authority preparing the accommodation programme for that area. Participation and consultation with travellers on the assessment of their accommodation needs is assured as a result of the requirement to notify the local traveller accommodation consultative committee and to have regard to their views.

The information and needs upon which the first five year programme is to be based is provided for at section 10 of this Bill. Because of the time lapse between the periodic statutory assessments, the section enables the Minister to give directions on how the information from a previous assessment is to be used or updated before a draft of the five year programme is prepared. The last assessment of needs was carried out in March 1996 and the next assessment is due in March 1999. As much of the preliminary work in preparing programmes will be carried out in advance of the next triannual assessment, housing authorities will have to update the 1996 assessment, for example, by using information obtained in connection with the returns submitted to my Department in relation to the accommodation situation generally of travellers.

The next significant step in the process is the preparation of a draft of a local five year programme by each relevant housing authority. The requirement to adopt and implement five year programmes represents a significant change from the existing discretionary powers. This change reflects the gravity with which the Government views the current situation. With 1,127 families on the roadside and an estimated further 300 families in temporary accommodation seeking permanent accommodation, it is clear that reliance on discretionary powers, given the difficulties in providing accommodation, cannot be expected to deliver sufficient progress. Moreover, these figures do not take account of the number of years that many families have been in these situations seeking to have living conditions improved to an acceptable standard or the likely increase in the number of households in the years ahead. The need for local programmes was identified by the Task Force on the Travelling Community and supported by successive Governments.

Sections 7 to 14 of the Bill set out in detail the various procedures to be followed before a programme is adopted. The procedures provided for are designed to ensure that the process is comprehensive, co-ordinated, integrated and transparent and is carried out by each relevant housing authority at the same time and in respect of the same period.

Section 7 requires that a five year programme be adopted by resolution of the members by a date to be specified by the Minister. The date to be specified will have to allow sufficient time for the statutory procedures and requirements to be complied with. Should members of an authority fail to exercise their duty within the specified period, allowing for the adjournment of any meeting up to a maximum of 21 days as provided for in section 13, the manager will be required to step in and ensure adoption within a further month. At this stage I estimate that in order to allow significant time for each step a minimum period of 12 months would be required to complete the process. Housing authorities are being given the flexibility to combine with one or more authorities to adopt joint programmes. I envisage that this option may facilitate improved co-ordination between neighbouring authorities. The same statutory procedures will apply to preparation and adoption of joint programmes.

It is critical to the success of the proposed legislation that every housing authority concerned address the same issues at the same time and in respect of the same period. Power to ensure that this happens is provided for in section 10. Section 7 already provides for the completion of the drafting process by a date to be specified. I also intend under the power which will be available to me to specify the dates in respect of the period for which the first five year programme is to be drawn up. Section l0 also sets out the matters which must be included in a programme — for example, information on the accommodation needs of travellers, a statement of the policy of the relevant housing authority in relation to how it proposes to meet these needs and a strategy for implementing the programme. These provisions are necessary in the interests of ensuring an adequate response to the statutory requirements under the Bill and of consistency and clarity of approach. There is provision for further directions to be issued by the Minister on matters of detail relating to the form and content of five year programmes.

There is a strong commitment throughout the Bill to consultation with the various interests concerned. The format of programmes set out in section 10 is intended to facilitate meaningful consultation with travellers and the general public and subsequent evaluation of the adequacy and implementation of programmes.

Prior notice of the preparation of an accommodation programme must be given under section 8 to a range of public authorities and the local traveller consultative committee to enable them to have an input to the preparation process. There is also a flexibility for other bodies, as the housing authority consider appropriate, to be given prior notice. These provisions take account of the long established working arrangements developed between the various bodies concerned. Inclusion of a body at this stage in the process is significant as other consultative procedures, to which I will refer later, automatically apply to such bodies.

Another important phase in the consultative process is the making available of a draft of the accommodation programme for inspection by the public. A period of two months from the date of the publication of a newspaper notice of such availability is allowed for the making of written submissions and for having those submissions taken into account. Bodies which received prior notice of the preparation of a draft programme under the previous section must also be given a copy of the newspaper notice and a copy of the draft programme. Under section 10(4) it is clear that the housing authority has power to amend the draft of an accommodation programme having considered any valid submissions received. The manager is obliged to report to the elected members on the results of this consultation including the revisions, if any, made to the draft or other proposed actions.

It is the intention under the Bill that all housing authorities concerned will have adopted their programmes by the specified date. Adoption is a reserved function of the authority — it requires a resolution of the members. Sections 11 to 14 contain further important details relating to the adoption of programmes. The manager must submit the draft programme and the report on submissions received under the consultative process in sufficient time — not later than two months from the specified date — to enable the members to give due consideration to its contents. It is recognised that there may be practical reasons why it would not be possible to complete consideration of the draft within two months. In such circumstances the meeting at which the motion for adoption is being considered may be adjourned for a further period of up to 21 days. Members are being afforded every opportunity to exercise their statutory responsibilities.

Should the members fail to adopt a programme by the specified date, the county or city manager is then obliged to adopt a programme within a further period of one month. In doing so the manager may make such amendments to the draft he considers appropriate. For instance, this would allow a manger to take account of the debate in the council chamber over an issue which members were unable to resolve. These are strong measures but the House will agree that the situation on the ground, as shown in the recently published returns from housing authorities, merits such action. There is no room in the strategy being pursued for housing authorities which shirk their responsibilities under the proposed Bill. Section 15 seeks to ensure that, once adopted, copies of the programme are circulated to specified bodies and are widely available for inspection or purchase by the public.

Once adopted, an accommodation programme must be implemented. Section 16 places an obligation on the adopting authority to take any reasonable steps necessary to secure the implementation of a programme. It also requires other housing authorities to take such steps as are necessary for the implementation of proposals set out in an accommodation programme in respect of their functional area. The obligations under this section extend to housing authorities within the area covered by the programme to have regard to the provisions of the programme when exercising any of their functions in relation to traveller accommodation. A programme, or parts of a programme, may involve partnership arrangements and fall to be implemented by many other bodies and individuals — for example, other public authorities, approved voluntary housing bodies and travellers themselves. The adopting authority has overall responsibility to secure implementation of an adopted programme in accordance with the strategies and policies set out in the programme. Such strategies may involve the provision of financial or other assistance to voluntary housing bodies to directly provide accommodation or grants to individual traveller families to assist with the acquisition of accommodation.

Local accommodation programmes must be reviewed at least once in every three years. Of course a local authority may carry out a review at any time they consider it necessary. There is also provision under section 17 for the Minister to require more frequent reviews. The housing authority has the power to amend a programme or replace the programme following such a review. The making of an amendment to a programme or the replacement of a programme is subject to the same consultative and other procedures as applied to the adoption of the original programme. The requirements in relation to the review of programmes are most important in terms of ensuring that a programme is dynamic and takes account of the demographic changes in the traveller population. The formal review provisions are also an essential tool in monitoring progress in implementing the five year programmes and adjusting accommodation proposals accordingly.

It is proposed under section 18 that a power be reserved for the Minister to require that programmes be prepared or co-ordinated jointly by two or more housing authorities and that programmes be amended in such manner and by such date. I see this latter power as a safeguard to be used only in exceptional circumstances. To do otherwise would be contrary to the general thrust of local government reform in recent years and the principle of subsidiarity which is based on the making of decisions at the lowest practicable level.

Sections 19 to 22 are further evidence of the commitment to consultation between the persons most directly concerned and the relevant public authorities. New mechanisms are proposed at national and local level to ensure ongoing consultation with travellers in relation to accommodation issues. The proposed National Traveller Accommodation Committee is the statutory replacement for the existing consultative group established by my predecessor, but with an expanded membership. The Minister may seek the advice of the committee on any general matter relating to the accommodation of travellers. The committee will also have the discretion to advise the Minister on any such issue on its own initiative. I consider it essential that the remit of the proposed committee is confined to issues of a general nature. Detailed issues — those relating to specific proposals for accommodation or the needs of individual families — are more appropriate for consideration by the proposed local traveller consultative committees. This qualification on the matters which can be considered at national level has worked well and I have no reason to change this.

To date the National Traveller Accommodation Consultative Group has been very active and has had a valuable input to revised Guidelines on Residential Parks for Travellers which were issued in October 1997. Further guidelines, in a series designed to raise the standards of accommodation provided, are being prepared in consultation with the group. I recently received a copy of the group's annual report for 1997 which also sets out its comprehensive work programme for 1998. I value greatly the work which the group is doing and I have already taken steps to expand the membership in advance of the enactment of the Bill.

Section 21 requires each county council and county borough corporation to establish a local traveller accommodation consultative committee to advise on traveller accommodation. The remit of these committees extends to any housing authority which is within the administrative county, or to an adjoining authority at that authority's request. Advice may be provided in relation to any aspect of the accommodation issue, including details of individual needs and specific proposals for accommodation. The local committees must be consulted or notified in respect of certain specified matters such as the making of an assessment of needs, the preparation of a draft accommodation programme, and be supplied with a copy of the newspaper notice and draft accommodation programme.

I expect that local committees will play an important consultative role in identifying the accommodation needs of individual families, the design of accommodation to meet these needs and the development of partnership arrangements to manage and maintain accommodation once it has been provided. The committees' role in relation to monitoring the implementation of programmes will be another valuable tool in ensuring that implementation is kept high on the local political agenda. The composition and balance of representation of the local committees is strictly defined.

Section 22 provides that the local traveller accommodation consultative committees shall comprise representatives of the members and officials for the appointing authority and representatives of local travellers and traveller bodies. The section also provides that elected representatives will not exceed one half of the membership, while traveller representatives must make up at least one quarter of the membership. The proposed parameters for the representation of each group are intended to ensure a balance of representation and reflect experience of a number of different approaches followed by some local authorities in recent years.

In preparing this section I also gave careful consideration to the inclusion of representatives of other groups and authorities on the consultative committee. I am satisfied that the composition proposed is appropriate, having regard to the role of the committees in improving the participation of travellers in the planning, design and management of their accommodation and in order to foster improved understanding between local authorities and the local travelling community.

In so deciding I took into account the other channels which are available to local communities to express their views on local developments, including the opportunity to have an input to the draft of an accommodation programme and the recently announced decision to end the exemption of halting sites from the public notice procedures of Part X of the Local Government (Planning and Development) Regulations, 1994, which apply to local authority developments in their functional areas. I was also conscious of the proposals under the local government reform programme for the establishment by local authorities of strategic policy committees covering the major functions, including housing. These will provide a further opportunity to consult community groups about housing issues, including traveller accommodation.

A wide range of services are provided to travellers at local level and it is a matter for the authorities concerned as to what arrangements may be appropriate to ensure co-ordination of those services. Some local authorities are participating in local co-ordinating arrangements but it is not necessary to provide for this specifically in the Bill. Section 23 is a saver provision which is needed to ensure that existing proposals for the development of accommodation are not held up pending the completion of the statutory procedures involved in the adoption of five year accommodation programmes.

Part III of the Bill sets out some miscellaneous but important provisions, including provision to strengthen the powers of housing authorities to control unauthorised temporary dwellings and to deal with serious anti-social behaviour on halting sites. Certain amendments to the Local Government (Planning and Development) Acts and the Local Government Acts are also included in this Part. Section 24 is a saver provision in respect of a county or city manager's existing powers under the City and County Management (Amendment) Acts to take action in emergency situations, including works which are reasonable and necessary to provide a reasonable standard of accommodation for any person.

Sections 25 and 26 provide for the inclusion in county and city development plans of appropriate objectives for the provision of accommodation for travellers and the use of particular areas for that purpose. The need for inclusion of appropriate objectives emerged as a result of a number of court proceedings which stopped particular developments for traveller accommodation on the grounds that the development was contrary to the development plan. The need for any change to existing development plans and the particular wording to be included will be a matter for each planning authority. While appropriate guidelines and advice will issue to authorities on the matter, it is essential that such objectives, as a minimum, allow for implementation of the adopted five year accommodation programme.

Any variation to an existing plan will be subject to the same statutory requirements which apply to normal variations. A planning authority is allowed the flexibility under section 26 to delay the making of the necessary changes until the next variation in order to avoid unnecessary duplication of effort by scarce resources. Section 26 also contains a transitional provision to ensure that any development under an adopted five year programme is not held up pending the processing of the necessary variation to the development plan.

I wish to see the voluntary sector playing a greater role in the provision of purpose built accommodation for travellers. That sector already has a track record in the provision of standard housing and the allocation of such units to travellers. There is scope for becoming involved in other types of accommodation as the assistance to approved voluntary bodies under the capital assistance scheme is also available at the maximum rates in respect of halting sites. To date, however, no proposal for such a site has been developed. I will continue to encourage voluntary bodies to become involved in this area. The technical amendment to the Housing (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act, 1979, proposed under section 27 is intended to ensure that there is adequate statutory backing for such assistance.

The powers of local authorities to provide, improve, manage and control sites for caravans are contained in section 13 of the Housing Act, 1988. Various aspects of these powers have been raised in the courts in recent years and, as a result, further clarification of the provisions in that section is required. Section 28 therefore provides for a revised provision under which it will be clear that a housing authority has power to provide sites with different levels of services related to the intended use, including transient halting sites, and both permanent sites and temporary sites pending the provision of permanent accommodation.

A definition of the term "site with limited facilities" has been inserted in the section to make a clear distinction between temporary or short stay sites and permanent sites. A new provision is also being inserted which will enable the Minister to issue guidelines on the level of services and facilities to be provided. The intention of the new provision is to ensure that accommodation of a standard appropriate to a given situation is provided. While housing authorities will be obliged to have regard to any such guidelines issued in developing their proposals, it is not the intention that they will be applied rigidly or be seen as the only solution. Situations will vary locally and account will be taken of this by the Department when considering applications for funding of specific proposals.

Revised guidelines on permanent residential caravan parks were prepared in consultation with the National Traveller Accommodation Consultative Group and were issued last October. Further guidelines in the series are being prepared in consultation with the group. Due to the number of proposals for accornmodation to be developed in the coming years under local programmes, it is my intention to have the further guidelines issued as soon as possible pending the enactment of the legislation. When the Bill is enacted I envisage that the guidelines will be reissued with the formal backing of the legislation. The extent of compliance with any guidelines issued is already a criterion applied by my Department when considering applications from housing authorities for capital funding for developments.

The objective of the proposed Bill is the acceleration of the rate at which accommodation is provided. It is important, therefore, that progress is made and is seen to be made in the implementation of local five year programmes. Section 30 provides for a mechanism which will facilitate regular reporting on the progress made as well as the activities of the local traveller accommodation consultative committee. The Department will also continue to seek returns from the housing authorities on the general accommodation situation of traveller families, perhaps with some adjustments to reflect the new structures and framework.

Increased powers are proposed for housing authorities under sections 31 to 34 of the Bill. The proposed powers are in relation to two problem areas identified by the task force as requiring attention, that is, unauthorised encampments, particularly in close proximity to existing traveller specific accommodation, and anti-social behaviour on sites. Unauthorised encampments continue to be a source of concern and complaints from the public. I recognise and accept that the problem of unauthorised encampments is largely related to the lack of availability of suitable permanent accommodation. The efforts of local authorities and others concerned must be concentrated on meeting the need for permanent accommodation.

However, there are and will continue to be situations where local authorities cannot tolerate such encampments on health, safety and environmental grounds. Effective powers to deal with such situations must be available to the authorities. The advice of the Attorney General was sought on the scope for amending the law in this regard and the proposals contained in section 31 of the Bill reflect the advice received. The improvements proposed in section 31 introduce a greater degree of flexibility in operating the existing controls which are set out in section 1 0 of the Housing (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act, 1992.

As a result of the amendments to the l992 Act, housing authorities will be able to take action in the following three situations: where an unauthorised temporary dwelling is within five miles of a serviced site provided by any housing authority or voluntary body and if the site has been provided by a voluntary body or is outside the functional area of the authority seeking to move the dwelling, the agreement of the body or authority must be obtained; where an unauthorised temporary dwelling is in poor condition or interferes with amenities or is or is likely to be a risk to personal or public health or safety, the alternative accommodation may be on any serviced site within or without the functional area of the housing authority and where an unauthorised temporary dwelling is within one mile of any traveller accommodation provided by the housing authority or approved voluntary body.

No change is proposed in respect of the action to be taken, that is, a notice is served to remove the temporary dwelling followed by the towing away of the dwelling if no response to the notice is received within a specified period. Powers of local authorities under the Planning Acts regarding unauthorised development and under the Roads Acts in connection with safety aspects and other controls under environmental and public health legislation will remain.

Proper management of residential caravan parks and halting sites is necessary in the interests of the quality of life of the residents on site and in the immediate vicinity. A number of important initiatives have already been taken to promote the use of best practice in estate management in local authority housing schemes, including the recent establishment of housing under the auspices of the Institute of Public Administration to encourage further training and research in this area. A scheme of financial assistance to housing authorities in respect of the management and maintenance costs for traveller specific accommodation has been introduced. Under this scheme, the development of partnership arrangements between local authorities and travellers for the arrangement of their accommodation is encouraged.

These proactive initiatives need to be underpinned by adequate statutory support in respect of problems which may arise on sites. Therefore, I propose to extend relevant powers to housing authorities or approved voluntary bodies, under the Housing (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act, 1997, in respect of anti-social behaviour on housing estates or halting sites.

I have set out in detail the provisions of the Bill and the background to it. The Bill represents a comprehensive and balanced response by the Government to the difficulties we have experienced over a long period in seeking to meet the accommodation needs of travellers. It provides housing authorities with a clear legal framework for addressing those needs, clarifies their obligations, strengthens their power as housing authorities and provides for consultations with travellers and the general public. In addition to changes in the local government planning and development regulations, the Bill ensures that planning, design and management of traveller accommodation proposals will be the subject of extensive consultation. This is essential if we are to address concerns on the part of travellers and the settled community and if we are to overcome the long delays experienced by housing authorities in seeking to provide accommodation.

I commend the Bill to the House. I look forward to strong support for the Bill and the objectives it seeks to achieve.

I welcome the Minister of State back to the House, he is becoming a constant visitor. I thank him for his comprehensive contribution.

The Bill deals with one of the most controversial issues in Irish society, namely, addressing the needs of travellers. With more than 1,100 traveller families living by the roadside, local authorities will be required to prepare and adopt a five year programme to meet travellers' housing needs. In drawing up this programme, housing authorities will be obliged to assess the needs of travellers. They will also be required to assess the need for sites for caravans and, in doing so, have regard to the estimated growth in the need for accommodation in each local authority area for the duration of the five year programme. In carrying out this assessment, the housing authorities must give notice to the local travellers' accommodation consultative committee, established under section 21 of the Bill, to ascertain its views.

When a draft of a five year programme has been prepared, the Bill also requires that a public consultation process take place. It will be the responsibility of local authorities to place notices in newspapers stating the time and place when the draft document can be inspected and the public will have two months in which to make submissions. As the Minister of State indicated, the adoption of the five year programme is a reserved function but if the elected members fail to adopt the plan within a specified time it then becomes a management function.

I wish to make a number of general comments in respect of the housing of travellers. The 1996 census discovered that there were just under 11,000 travellers living in 4,300 households. It also found that 50 per cent of traveller families lived in local authority or group housing schemes and the other 50 per cent lived in serviced roadside halting sites or on unserviced sites or encampments.

The largest number of travellers in the State live in Dublin local authorities areas. Approximately 1,000 travellers live in my local authority, the Dublin City Council, area. A recent count of traveller families in the city indicated the following: there were 25 families in standard local authority housing, 110 families were accommodated in group housing schemes, 140 families occupied official halting sites, 13 families were living in the backyards of houses in group housing schemes, 50 families were parked illegally on official sites and 18 families were situated on roadside or unofficial sites. The total travelling community in Dublin amounts to 357 families, of which 288 families live in official accommodation. A further 69 families are waiting to be housed. Of the families to which I referred, 110 are housed in group schemes at Clondalkin, Ballyfermot, Finglas, Dunsink Lane, Malahide Road and Coolock. There are 118 bays on official halting sites and caravan parks at Dunsink, Belcamp Lane, Ballymun, Inchicore, Clondalkin, Grand Canal Harbour and Pigeon House Road, Ringsend, which provide accommodation for 232 caravans.

Unfortunately, it is becoming more difficult to obtain suitable accommodation for travellers in the Dublin area because of the lack of open space and the almost total objection on the part of the settled community to traveller settlement. I note from the Bill that the Minister of State intends to establish a national consultative committee. If it is to have a real impact, this committee must play its part in helping to educate the public in respect of the needs of the traveller community.

Despite their name and popular assumptions about their lifestyle, travellers appear to travel a great deal less than we originally thought. In the 1996 census, nine out of ten travellers said they had lived in the same place a year earlier and a further six out of ten indicated they lived in the county in which they were born. This compares to eight out of ten of the general population. One of the most striking features of the survey is the young age of travellers compared with the general population. On the day the census was taken, 50 per cent of all travellers were under 15 years of age. This compares with a figure of 25 per cent in respect of the general population. Travellers also marry at a younger age and almost 33 per cent of males and 39 per cent of females had married by the age of 24. Among the general population, only 1 per cent of males and 3 per cent of females had married by that age. Travellers also tend to have larger families than their counterparts in the settled community. The number of children per traveller family is currently 6.5 as against 2.5 per family in the settled community.

Even before the publication of this Bill, Dublin Corporation had plans to build accommodation for travellers over the next two years. Recently, the city council approved the construction of 19 houses at Carra Park. As stated earlier, one of the major problems facing Dublin Corporation is the lack of open space. Major religious orders with substantial land holdings in the city should make some of that property available for traveller accommodation.

In meeting its two year programme to accommodate travellers, particularly the 69 families on the waiting list, my local authority has, as already stated, approved the construction of 19 houses at Carra Park and intends to provide 11 additional houses at Avila Park and 12 at Belcamp Lane. It is also investigating the possibility of providing housing in two other areas. My local authority will have little difficulty in complying with the provisions of the Bill because it is currently working on a two year programme which can easily be extended to five years .

I wish to make passing reference to an issue which is strictly not covered by the Bill but, nevertheless, arises because of the poor and unsafe living conditions which travellers have experienced for many years. I refer to the health problems encountered by the travelling community. Studies in recent years indicate that the life expectancy and the general health of the travelling community compares very unfavourably to that of the settled community. Poor sanitation and poor and unsafe living conditions are a major contributory factor. It is hard to believe that just two out every 100 travellers live to the age of 65 years. The travelling community's infant mortality rate is nearly three times the national average, it has twice the national rate of stillbirths and it is only now reaching the life expectancy level which the settled community reached in the early 1940s.

Various studies have documented the poor health status of the travelling community. Other significant problems include low rates of immunisation, insufficient participation in ante natal and child development clinics and low birth weight babies. With regard to notifiable diseases, such as gastro-enteritis, travellers represent a much higher percentage of notifications than would be expected on the basis of their numbers in the population. Unsatisfactory living conditions, including overcrowding, lack of clean drinking water and poor sanitary conditions, leave the travelling community vulnerable to infectious diseases.

If we are to eliminate the health problems of the travelling community we must be prepared to improve their living conditions. The Bill goes some way in endeavouring to achieve this objective, but its success can only be determined by the goodwill of the settled community. When consulted the public will indicate that it is in favour of settling the travelling community but the ‘not in my back yard' syndrome will arise. As public representatives we must address this issue courageously. If the measures outlined in the Bill are to be successful they must be adopted by courageous politicians at local level. The travelling community has the same right to share the economic wealth the country enjoys at present and the first objective in that regard must be to provide proper housing. I welcome the Bill.

I dtosach báire ba mhaith liom fáilte a chur roimh an Aire. Molaim é as ucht an iarracht atá á dhéanamh aige chun dul chun cinn a dhéanamh ar son comhríocht and lucht siúil. I welcome the sentiments behind the Bill. Anyone familiar with the travellers' lifestyle will agree that the conditions in which they live need to addressed and improved. As a consequence of the conditions in which many travellers live their health is affected and their life expectancy is well below that of the settled community. This year we celebrate the bicentenary of 1798 when the leaders of the rebellion espoused the principles of the French revolution, liberty, equality and fraternity. It is appropriate, therefore, that we seek to ensure that this disadvantaged community gets equal rights and opportunities. It is also important that we have equality before the law and some of the difficulties experienced on the traveller issue relate to a perception that this does not apply.

The Bill deals with accommodation. However, the solution to this problem will not be found in accommodation alone. In the past the issue was examined on a statistical rather than on a comprehensive basis. The settlement of travellers is important. Severe difficulties have arisen in the past with some local authorities attempts to do this, but we must make provision for the satisfactory integration of travellers into the settled community. Our success in this area should be gauged by that criterion rather than on a purely statistical basis.

There must be proper and adequate education for traveller children so that they will have better life opportunities than their parents. In many areas efforts are being made in this regard. There are a number of resource centres in my constituency which play a useful role in providing training and education to equip travellers to participate fully in the settled lifestyle. It will also be the key to employment which will be essential to changing their lifestyle.

We have based our economic development over the last decade on partnership. Those of us who are involved in local authorities and who have grappled with the traveller issue for many years will be aware that without a partnership approach we are doomed to failure. I welcome the provision in the Bill for a consultative process and the Minister of State's emphasis on the consultative approach. From his ministerial and local authority experience he has wide knowledge and familiarity with what is required. It is only a consensus approach which will yield the results we seek.

The Bill has many processes for consultation. As Tip O'Neill said, all politics is local, and the solution to traveller accommodation will not be found in the Custom House. Rather it is to be found at local level in the different local authority districts. They will have to come up with plans and programmes and seek widespread public support for that. Such public support can be garnered but it must be sought in an organised fashion. In my local area there have been successful public meetings on problems which have arisen because of halting sites where travellers and the settled community had a chance to air and exchange views. This process has assisted in generating a greater recognition on both sides of the difficulties experienced. More importantly, it has created a coming together of the groups.

The Bill provides for accommodation programmes to be drawn up and information on travellers' accommodation needs to be obtained from various sources. One aspect which in the past has given rise to some public cynicism has been the non-discriminatory allocation of local authority accommodation. In the past I have championed the cause of travellers who were badly in need of accommodation on the basis of their living conditions. However, as soon as it was accommodated the family involved was in a position to buy two or three other houses which became available. The family did not qualify because it had the means to provide its own accommodation.

We had another such instance and, although these are exceptions, it is important to recognise them. There should be some sort of built in mechanism within the assessment of the need for local authority housing and the provision of housing sites, which are equally costly, so that they go to those who are in the greatest need and who do not have the capability to provide accommodation from their own resources.

Another example concerned a tenant of ours who was involved in a court case and, according to an affidavit, had £250,000 worth of horses. We do not normally provide houses for people in that category. There is a need to be much more diligent in the way we approach the matter.

I would like to dwell for a moment on the simplistic approach that emerges sometimes in dealing with the problem. A few years ago I recall having a debate with the then Minister of State, Deputy Stagg, about the need for traveller accommodation and plans to deal with it. When we pointed out that an integral part of the solution was the provision of social workers to ensure proper settlement and integration of those families for whom we were providing accommodation, we received a fairly negative response, much to our disappointment.

We have many travellers in County Wexford some of whom live in halting sites while others live in unofficial halting sites beside houses. A high proportion of travellers live in private housing and that is a welcome development. Others live in local authority housing. We have two social workers for the county. Everyone, including the officials, has campaigned over a long period of time for proper resources to be made available from the Department to have sufficient social workers to assist the process of integration. This is why I am critical of the traditional approach that is being taken, which is to get travellers housed so that the statistics will improve and our responsibilities appear to have been met. I do not believe for a minute, however, that is the case.

With regard to the provision in the Bill for consultation, particularly for the report to come before the council, the Minister should re-examine sections 11 and 12 whereby a manager must bring a report before the authority at least two months before the date by which the draft must be adopted. In my experience, given the work load that many local authorities have, that is an inadequate period of time in which to consider and consult with people and reach conclusions. There is a danger in this that if we try to impose a solution we will have opposition, perhaps from councillors but more importantly from the public at large. In the past that has been the stumbling block to greater success in providing more accommodation.

If we do not recognise that in the mechanisms we are putting in place, we will repeat the mistakes of the past. I would like to see a six month period instead of two months. I take the point that local authorities must address the issue and cannot have an open ended brief so that they continue talking about the matter for years. That is different, however, than providing insufficient time. Elected members have the responsibility to act and have a mandate from the public. The are the only ones that are accountable — the manager is not accountable — so they must have sufficient time to fully debate and explore the various solutions.

I have tremendous reservations with regard to giving a county manager any powers to overrule the council. I can see the reason it is included in the Bill but it is undemocratic. I would not have a difficulty if the proposed directly elected chairman of local authorities was given that power because he will be accountable to the people.

My experience of county managers all over the country is that they are no different from anyone else. Everyone wants to see the problem solved but nobody wants it solved next door to themselves. The existing provision will ensure that in future no halting site will be located near a county manager's house. That provision should be re-examined. Although I understand the difficulty involved, we could see if it can be improved by giving the power of decision to a directly elected chairman who would be obliged to make a decision.

The consultative approach to be taken with travellers themselves runs through the Bill. That is important. One must have the views, opinions and support of travellers in any programme we introduce. I have no difficulty in fully accepting that but we must not overlook the settled community nor fail to involve them.

The National Traveller Accommodation Consultative Group and local groups must be involved. We should have concerned people from the settled community, who will have the interests of travellers and the settled community at heart and who are conversant with the problems that have traditionally arisen between them. It is much better to confront those difficulties at the early stages of consultation than trying to deal with them when problems subsequently arise. If we can anticipate the problems we can make provision to avoid them. Prevention is better than cure and that is the philosophy I suggest.

When we were putting a halting site in my own area we consulted with the travellers. There were strong local objections to one area. We subsequently selected another area to which the travellers objected. However, after some consultation we decided to proceed and the halting site has been filled almost from the time it was built. Councillors must have the courage of their convictions in dealing with this problem.

There is a group called Meas, which means respect. Perhaps because of how the group came about, some officials in my own county do not have the same level of rapport with it as we would like to see. That body emerged because of problems we have in County Wexford and it now comprises a membership in different areas around the country including Dublin and Mayo. The group's representatives have attended many local authority meetings. While I would not agree with all their policies, many of them are laudable and provide a way forward to deal with the issues. Without public support we cannot hope to succeed with this problem.

Sections 27 and 29 imply that needs may well determine the size of halting sites. I have observed halting sites in various locations and officials in my own county have now come round to thinking that the smaller a site is, the better. The optimum size is a six bay halting site. It is up to the local authority to make that decision but such sites should be spread evenly throughout a county. If they are concentrated in one area it will create concerted local opposition. It will also sow the seeds that prevent integration with the local community which should be one of the main aspirations and objectives of a Bill like this.

In some instances the removal of caravans from unauthorised sites is a very contentious and difficult issue. The law in this regard seems to be inadequate. Generally the Judiciary tend not to provide the mechanism for moving people on from sites unless another location is available. Much of what is in the Bill seems to be discretionary with the use of the word "may" rather than "shall", which is a more mandatory term. I wonder will that achieve what we would like it to achieve. I also note that temporary dwellings in poor condition can be moved. Why the qualification of dwellings in poor condition? Often those in the poor traveller accommodation are the ones most in need with less resources to provide for themselves.

In conclusion, I wish the Minister well in his objective. This is a most important Bill and I would like to have had a debate on the issue in advance of the Bill being introduced in the House. Nonetheless, the Bill is before us and I hope certain aspects of it, particularly the settled community issue, will be included. I believe this would be constructive and useful and do much to avoid some of the controversies of the past. I ask that a comprehensive and consistent effort be pursued because I believe that success will depend on an absolutely common sense approach being taken.

The Bill before us this morning has been in gestation for some time. I join with the Minister in paying tribute to his predecessor, Deputy McManus, former Minister of State with responsibility for housing, who pioneered the work to put this Bill together and worked as chairperson of the task force in that regard. I also compliment the Minister for seeing the work through to completion. I know when there is an election things get postponed but I do not think he has lost any time in making sure the work is completed and brought before this House for consideration. At the outset, I would like to mention former Minister Mervyn Taylor who established the task force in 1993 which recommended in its report of 1995 the setting up of a national traveller accommodation strategy. The legislation before us today will give effect to the recommendations and commitments made in that strategy. I would also like to mention former Senator Mary Kelly, a county councillor in West Limerick, who is doing a lot work in this area as a member of her local authority and took over the chairing of the task force following Deputy McManus's elevation to ministerial office.

I have a great interest in this subject. It may not be the best subject for attracting votes, particularly as a member of a local authority, but while still in school I was involved at local level in an after school programme for travellers.

County Offaly has the highest proportion of travellers per 1,000 of population in the country — eight per 1,000. After Rathkeale, Tullamore has the second highest proportion of travellers — 3 per cent of the population. So I speak with some authority and with some experience of an extensive range of provisions in a local area for travellers. This reflects the point made by the Minister that despite all these provisions the problem seems to be growing. This is the experience in my area where there are a range of services from a special training centre, in-school and out-of-school provisions to homework clubs, pre-schools and special efforts in the area being made by the council and the health board.

Despite this the accommodation problem seems to be growing. The Minister will notice when travelling from his constituency by train that as he enters the town of Tullamore from the western side there is an official halting site and two large unofficial halting sites beside it. I am bringing my interest and experience in this issue at local level to bear on the proposals. I want to mention the officials in the traveller accommodation unit of the Department who have done an excellent job in bringing this legislation before us today. I support the thrust of the legislation but I have a number of queries and suggestions to make to the Minister in the hope that he might reply at the end of this debate or during the later Stages.

The need for accommodation has been outlined by the Minister. The census figures show that this is an area where the good record of this country in many areas of social provision is blotted to the extend that the figures regarding travellers' accommodation, education and health needs reflect more the status of one of the worst third world countries rather than a country which was recently ranked eleventh worldwide by a Swiss organisation in terms of economic performance. Now is the time to make a determined effort to solve this problem because the resources are available. The numbers involved are not inordinate. Listening to people talk about travellers and immigrants, one would think the country was overrun with these people, but we are talking about a manageable problem. This legislation provides the framework within which the problem can be managed.

I would like elaboration from the Minister on the thinking regarding the exclusion for this purpose of urban district councils other than Bray and Dundalk. Are these urban district councils precluded from drawing up their own plans or what arrangements will be made for councillors and residents in urban districts to have an input into countywide plans? I have heard this matter discussed in various areas from two angles. Some say the fact that the duty will now be on the county councillors to adopt the plan will take the burden off the urban councillors . Others say that while the duty may be on the county councillors, they will recommend that all the sites be provided in urban districts. I would like to hear the Minister's views on this matter.

In relation to the procedures outlined for the adoption of the programme, this is a function which is reserved for members; but if they fail to do so by a specified date the manager will, within one month of that date, adopt the plan. It would be highly desirable that the plan be adopted by the elected members. I appreciate there may be some circumstances where this will not happen, but if power is to be given to the manager to adopt the plan in the absence of consent or agreement by the elected members we must be very careful how we proceed. The one month time limit is possibly too short. That applies from one council meeting to the next and those of us who are members of urban or county authorities know that time passes very quickly. Given the range and extent of matters dealt with by local authorities, this does not give much time to the manager or councillors to reconsider the position. I suggest the time limit be extended and that if within that period the manager is allowed make alterations to the proposed plan, there be some form of further consultation in that period.

I do not have any specific recommendations to make yet but it might be useful to look at an appeals procedure in the event of dissatisfaction as regards the adequacy of the plan to deal with the needs in the area, particularly if it has been adopted as an executive rather than a reserved function. Some form of consultation should be included if amendments are to be made by the manager alone. An appeals procedure might reduce the danger of matters being taken to court. Despite the efforts in this legislation to clear up many of the legal ambiguities which have arisen through different court decisions, there will be court challenges and these should be prevented if possible.

I welcome the procedures for public consultation in drawing up the traveller accommodation programme. The identification of sites is never an easy task. Too often halting sites have been put in undesirable locations, for example, beside a former sewerage works in the town in which I live, or near dumps and other dangerous facilities. Often halting sites are located next to council housing estates in order to keep them out of areas where people have more social and political influence. This should be avoided.

Every area in a county or urban district should play its part in helping to meet the need for halting sites. The most undesirable sites or those which will provoke least resistance from people who, for economic or social reasons do not wield the power which others can call on, are chosen. This situation should be reversed. In last week's discussion on planning I said that objections in my area tend to come from places where people are affluent enough to employ consultants to object on their behalf. I do not want to see that happening here. A great deal of effort must be put into site selection.

As regards the adoption of a countywide plan, Offaly County Council, during the tenure of the last county manager, Mr. McCarthy, tried to adopt a countywide approach in 1992-3, involving co-operation with the urban authorities. It had limited success but fell down in its implementation. The Department has learned from that as can be seen in the proposals put forward today. The procedures for the implementation of the programme are as important as the procedures for its adoption.

The consultative committees will play an important role at local and national level. I welcome that the national committee has been put on a statutory footing. Efforts have been made to do this at local level but they have not worked to date. The fact that they are provided for in law is no guarantee that they will work. A great deal of work and resources need to be put into the setting up and operation of these committees. They cannot be seen as adjuncts to the council and the traveller organisation representatives must have a meaningful role.

I would like to hear the views of the Minister and the Department on how people will be selected and trained. Councillors are discussing the need for training in councils under strategic policy committees. Equally, if not more so, members of these consultative committees, particularly at local level, will need resources and back-up facilities to do their job properly. Guidelines need to be issued to councils as regards selection procedures and resources must be provided to meet the needs of the members of those committees.

I welcome the decision to lift the exemption for halting sites from the provisions of Part X of the 1994 planning regulations. Many people do not agree with the lifting of this exemption. I understand why the exemption was introduced. However, as in the exemption of certain provisions for mobile telephone communications, which was discussed here yesterday, exemptions lead to more problems.

There was a long battle to have public developments included in the planning process. This culminated in the row about the visitors' centre in Mullaghmore, County Clare and as a result, these regulations were introduced in 1994. Certain exemptions were permitted, including traveller halting sites. In the interests of consistency, if one provision is included, all should be included. While people who are anxious to have speedy provision of halting sites may not agree with the lifting of this exemption, in the long term it will prove to be a good decision.

I welcome the proposed changes to rules on the adoption of development plans. Objectives for the provision of accommodation for travellers and the use of certain areas for this purpose will have to be included. The Minister said this has arisen from court proceedings — one such case related to an area near Birr, County Offaly. The challenge was based on an alleged inadequacy in the development plan. This may seem to slow the process but it will help to avoid litigation and provide for better consultation. I ask the Minister and his Department to keep an eye on consultation to ensure it is not used to frustrate the achievement of the aims with which we all agree.

There will be extensive consultation in the adoption of the traveller accommodation programme and the inclusion of the appropriate objectives in the development plan. Some groups will see the potential to hold up the provision of accommodation for travellers. I ask the Minister to give a commitment that these provisions will be reviewed if necessary to ensure that vexatious use is not made of them.

I wish to ask the Minister how provision will be made for the resolution of conflict at local level, even if these plans are implemented. Conflict will not disappear because of legislation. The Department needs to co-operate with the national consultative committee to see if facilitators or experts can be brought in at local level to help resolve conflicts which arise between the council, residents and travellers, even where sites have been approved and provided.

There was a dangerous situation in Tullamore two years ago, when one Friday evening, knowing that council officials would have gone home, a group of travellers came from a county quite a distance away. They pitched a tent on a green in a settled housing estate beside the official serviced halting site. They intimidated the council and the residents and the council had to allow them onto unserviced council land beside the official halting site. A number of councillors and I were the mediators between the manager's staff, the travellers who had arrived, the travellers on the official site and the residents on the neighbouring housing estate. We were glad to serve our function and avoid an untoward situation which may have resulted in violence.

Trained people should be available at local level to engage in conflict resolution. Town clerks and housing officers have enough to do not alone for travellers but also for other people in the community who need accommodation while social workers dealing with travellers are already overburdened. Special facilitators or people with special skills need to be provided to help reduce and resolve conflict. There will be a need to increase resources for local authorities even though the Department has always provided significant capital funding for the provision of halting sites. The position regarding maintenance costs is improving but we must look at human resources within county councils also to ensure they are beefed up to meet the task ahead. Housing officers cannot be asked to be experts on everything. If extra staff are necessary to put this into effect, provision should be made for them.

The provisions regarding the form and content of accommodation programmes are sensible. The belief that in preparing programmes regard must be had for the accommodation needs that have been identified, including the need for transient halting sites and the distinct needs and family circumstances of travellers, is important. I strongly agree with the provisions the Minister of State outlined to ensure co-ordination between local authorities so that, first, they take the responsibility seriously in this regard and, second, ensure procedures regarding the adoption of programmes should be carried out nationwide at the same time. Those are sensible suggestions warranted by experience. The tendency has been that if one council moved ahead it was blocked at a certain stage and then decided that it would not move until everyone else did.

I welcome the provision for a review. Where a programme is adopted for five years, changes may occur on the ground and the programme must then be modified. Will the Minister of State respond to the fear that the provisions for amendments or replacements may be used again to hold up implementation of local plans?

I am concerned about the provisions on unauthorised encampments. I welcome the efforts being made to tackle such encampments because they have been the single biggest deterrent to the provision of further serviced halting sites. There is one halting site in Tullamore but there are two unauthorised ones beside it. People living in an area proposed for a further site cannot be expected to deal with the risk of unauthorised encampments also. Will the Minister of State seriously consider two changes to the provisions he outlined? They propose removal to a site within five miles but that is too short a distance, particularly in rural counties. A figure of 12 to 15 miles would be more feasible because every county would then be able to meet its obligations. Perhaps, there is a case for distinguishing between urban and rural authorities. It is not feasible to have a caravan illegally parked moved to within one mile. Three to five miles would be an appropriate radius; but if the Minister of State does not see fit to amend these figures, I will comment further on Committee Stage in regard to them.

I welcome the Minister of State to the House and thank him for introducing the Bill. There is need to review traveller accommodation and there are many misconceptions about what has happened. Unfortunately, in many communities there can be one bad egg in the basket of travellers and it gives the entire travelling community a bad name and creates many problems. A bad egg is present in every city and county.

The Bill contains a number of amendments to previous legislation which are extremely welcome. When one examines the provisions the onus will be put firmly on local authorities to statutorily deal with the problems. They will be given the opportunity to produce a plan within a period of two months. If the plan is not adopted within that period there is just a further month during which the council will have the opportunity to adopt it. Following that it becomes a managerial responsibility.

Many local authorities have been hard done by through the publicity they have received. I have no doubt there are councils which dealt with the problems as best they could given the resources that were available, which were not sufficient over the past number of years to deal with the provision of housing and other plans. There will be an extended role for councils in the coming years with the establishment of SPCs within them. This will give more responsibility to councillors, but with the establishment of the SPCs there will be a need to provide more resources for services and allow members of the SPCs to operate within the council framework. This will give them the strength and teeth to do the job for which they are intended as traveller accommodation will come under the remit of SPCs.

The rights of travellers within the community in general must be examined. The Minister of State did not make reference to dealing with the responsibility of travellers other than that committees will be set up comprising members of the National Traveller Accommodation Consultative Group or representatives of the travellers themselves at local level. Tribute should be paid to social workers and in Kilkenny Mr. Liam Keane has worked extremely hard over the past number of years. Every traveller in the south east knows and trusts him because he will deal with them to the best of his ability.

The Kilkenny traveller accommodation programme is an ongoing project. In 1984 a decision was taken by Kilkenny County Council to provide three halting sites in the city and its environs. On average 15 families were parked around the city at that time. In 1988 two three bay sites were built at Hebron Road and Wetlands. I had a problem with the Wetlands area, as director of elections for Fianna Fáil on one occasion, when we handed over the addressing of envelopes to a State body and 300 families, apart from those on the halting site, received letters with Wetlands Halting Site as their address, which did not go down well with a number of people. These sites were extended to five bays and in 1996 the Hebron Road site was extended to seven bays while two houses were provided at the Wetlands site. While there is no current demand for a third site, the need for a site for transient families is being assessed on an ongoing basis.

In the late 1970s and early 1980s there were, on average, 15 roadside families in Kilkenny city, three families in Urlingford and occasional roadside parking at New Ross. The provision of the two existing sites at Kilkenny city and the single site at Callan, as well as the ongoing provision of housing for roadside families, has greatly improved the situation.

The three roadside families at Urlingford have been housed and there are now 31 traveller families housed in Kilkenny. Of these, only one has caused any major problems and that family is creating atrocious difficulties for the social welfare system, the housing office, the Garda, the education system and so on. A house was purchased at a cost of £63,000 for the family by Kilkenny County Council. The family moved out of the house into the garden, parked their caravans there and the extended family moved in. Four years later, the house is wrecked and it is expected that a further £100,000 will have to be spent to renovate it. The Government's response to travellers is to provide a 100 per cent grant to them. If a member of the settled community were to behave in this manner, they would probably be imprisoned. Kilkenny County Council cannot take any action in this matter save to throw the family out on the side of the road. If we do that, they will not be allowed into the halting sites by the halting site residents. This family is a single bad egg and approximately £1,000 per week is being expended on it in terms of social welfare and so on.

A census taken in November 1995 showed that 13 families were resident in serviced sites and 14 were in need of accommodation. Seven of the latter group were living adjacent to their parents' houses on unofficial sites and the other seven were on the roadside. During 1995-6 a considerable change occurred in the pattern of roadside parking by transient families in Kilkenny. This was especially evident in the January to May and October to December periods of both years. As sufficient accommodation is available in the two existing sites for indigenous families, a third site would cater for transient families only.

During the summer, travellers come into Kilkenny and create problems. However, if approached, they will say they are on holidays; some would have houses in other parts of the country. People are entitled to go on holidays but one must consider the problems posed by their accommodation needs. One must also contend with commercial travellers. I counted 45 caravans parked on the roadside as I was travelling to Dublin from Kilkenny recently, some of which were Mercedes and BMWs and had Kerry or Limerick registration plates. These travellers are quite wealthy and must be dealt with when they come into an area. However, they are extremely familiar with the law as it applies to them. It can take the patience of Job and the wisdom of God to deal with them as they know exactly what they are doing and will move away from an area when they have done their business there.

When traders are excluded, 87 transient traveller families parked in Kilkenny city in 1994 compared to 36 in 1995 and 40 in 1996. The existing sites had 25 different families as tenants in 1996. The additional two bays and two houses on the existing sites made further accommodation available to families parking in the city area.

The number of traveller families parking in rural areas increased from 20 in 1994 to 44 in 1995 and 43 in 1996. Most of these families parked for short periods in the Glenmore area which is between Waterford and New Ross. Problems were also experienced on the Kilkenny-Wexford border at New Ross and Rosbercon. Wexford County Council's proposed four bay extension to the existing halting site at New Ross and the proposed ten bay transient site there will help to alleviate the problem in the Glenmore area. However, Kilkenny County Council is required to provide accommodation for a number of families indigenous to Rosbercon.

Although Kilkenny County Council has accommodated two families under the shared ownership scheme, consideration has been given to the acquisition of further properties which would accommodate between two and four more families and also to the acquisition of a site to facilitate a Respond housing scheme. The Respond scheme is one of the voluntary housing schemes which are springing up throughout the country to which more resources are being directed than to local authority housing. The 95 per cent grant which the scheme receives may seem similar to a local authority grant but when a voluntary housing scheme is set up, £3,000 per unit is set aside for amenity development at the site. No such provision is made for a local authority development and local authorities are at a distinct disadvantage in this regard.

The voluntary schemes do not spend as much as the local authorities on land acquisition because, in many cases, the local authority provides the land and a certain level of infrastructure. Perhaps the Department of the Environment and Local Government wishes to remove responsibility for housing from the local authorities and direct it at the voluntary schemes. The problem is that the voluntary groups will continue to use the county council lists and other council apparatus. As I understand it, tenants under the voluntary housing schemes are not entitled to purchase their houses so the schemes offer a means through which the housing can be retained in the public domain, unlike the local authority tenant-purchase schemes.

Two named indigenous Kilkenny families currently parking on the roadside are anxious to be housed and are very suitable for housing. It is proposed to provide rural cottages for these families and to permanently house a traveller family in Stoneyford in the upcoming scheme. The overall traveller accommodation programme to provide sufficient sites and houses is progressing well in Kilkenny. The need for a third site for transient families in the city is being monitored in the light of changes in roadside numbers, urban to rural shifts and the continuous increase in indigenous families which require housing. It is anticipated that the provision of a transient site would occur in tandem with neighbouring local authorities.

As well as the specific plans already outlined, the council will continue to pursue its policy of housing traveller families which are deemed suitable for housing in new schemes, rural cottages or causal vacancies. Voluntary bodies, together with local authorities, must also take responsibility for housing a certain number of traveller families. Traveller families in New Ross have been in continuous discussion with Kilkenny County Council and the Respond voluntary housing agency in regard to accommodation and it is not necessary to set up a formal participation structure for them.

Families on the two Kilkenny sites have site committees which participated in the redesigning of the sites for a recent upgrading project. Kilkenny Community Action Network will provide a community worker to work with these committees in an effort to establish a representative travellers group for Kilkenny. These will provide representatives to join with local officials and elected representatives on the proposed traveller accommodation committee. However, the two named families, among others, are not interested in participating in any tenancy committee and that might prove problematic. They tend to know their rights but not their responsibilities.

According to the expected directive from the Minister of State at the Department of the Environment and Local Government the following is the proposed five year plan for traveller accommodation in Kilkenny:

1997

— The provision-acquisition of 2 to 4 houses in the Rosbercon area together with the provision of 2 to 4 houses as part of the Respond Housing Scheme also in the Rosbercon area to cater for the extended . family [which is named in the plan].

— The provision for the [named] family at Rosbercon together with the proposals by Wexford County Council will meet the requirements in the New Ross Area.

— Ongoing monitoring of the changing pattern of transient Traveller parking and movement with regard to the need for a transient site and where it might be located.

— The provision of 2 rural cottages for the 2 indigenous [named] families.

— The provision of a tenancy for a traveller family as part of the Stoneyford Scheme.

1998

It is expected to allocate housing appropriate to what indigenous families are requesting and to house at least two families successfully in this way. The commitment to provide in all 7 units of accommodation in 1997 will substantially reduce the roadside demand. The provision of a transient site in Kilkenny city environs if the demand is sustained will be considered in 1998.

If the considerable shift to rural parking continues, then single lettings in the relevant areas will be considered instead or a transient site elsewhere in the county.

1999-2001

It is hoped by 1998 the roadside demand will be by and large facilitated and the Council will focus on the population increase in families on the site, those families parking within the curtilage of their parents' homes, etc. The majority of these families either want houses or to live on the existing sites among relatives. Our focus in Kilkenny will be to accommodate them accordingly.

It is unlikely, in the 5 year period that the Traveller population in Kilkenny will increase sufficiently to require more than two existing sites — [I hope word of this does not reach travellers in our neighbouring counties which would bring Waterford, Tipperary and Wexford people in on top of us] — the single site in Callan and the proposed transient site to facilitate transient families.

We hope to add to the 31 existing housed families, each year, with at least two successfully housed families.

The Traveller Accommodation Committee can be formed with representatives from the elected members and officials of Kilkenny County Council and Travellers' Representatives. They will be involved in discussing and developing the 5 year local Traveller Accommodation Programme before presentation to the Council for consideration and adoption.

Other councils are living up to their responsibility and have plans in progress which comply, in general, with what the Minister proposes in the Bill. The rights of travellers must be taken into account and their responsibilities must be addressed. We must equally look at the rights of the settled community and their responsibility to travellers. We must resource local authorities for the provision of educational and social programmes which could be integrated into the settled community's ongoing programmes of educational and social affairs.

This Bill is part of the body of important legislation which is being introduced by the Government. I welcome the Bill and the Minister to the House.

This Bill imposes an important responsibility on local authorities. Those Members, including myself, who are not involved in local government must pay tribute to the attempts by local authorities to address this issue. For many years I have been a supporter of travellers' rights and the development of travellers' culture in education. My cause is often set back by so called liberal commentators in polite newspapers who address this issue with no consideration for local pressures. I say this despite my frequent differences with local authorities.

It is the custom for university candidates for the Seanad to list the supporters of their nomination. The lists usually consist of learned professors and serious people of high quality. Since I first sought election to this House I have included representatives of the traveller community in my list of supporters. Nonetheless, I have had serious differences of opinion with members of the traveller community. I do not, for example, accept the concept of a traveller culture. I believe in the concept of an Irish culture and a number of sub-cultures within that. There may be a Kerry culture, a political culture or a Gaeltacht culture. There is also a traveller culture in that sense. The term sub-culture is not demeaning. It is an inclusive term. It is important that travellers see themselves as part of the Irish community and that they are seen as part of that culture and community. We must make concessions to accommodate each other.

This Bill is an important step forward. There are those who do not wish to see solutions and there will be difficulties in its implementation. It is important that local authorities are seen to have the support of the Houses of the Oireachtas in trying to address this issue.

I became involved in traveller education when I read surveys of travellers' living conditions. Figures for life expectancy, infant mortality and access to basic services such as running water and toilets, among travellers are still appalling. The traveller community includes some who will opt for a settled life, some who will opt for a nomadic life and others who will wish to travel at certain times of the year. It should not be too difficult to recognise and accommodate those three groups. This Bill attempts to do that.

I compliment the local authorities in Galway who, for many years, have been aware of the importance of education as a bridge between the travelling life and the settled life. In Galway, help has been provided for travellers who wish to adjust to the change from a nomadic to a settled life. Difficulties involving travellers in Galway is no reflection on the people of Galway or on their local authorities. Discrimination against travellers is the responsibility of the individual who perpetrates that discrimination. To say otherwise is another form of racism. It is important to explain to people what is required in a settled community and to help them adjust to it. This has been done in Galway.

Travellers do not like the word "assimilation" but I use it to mean the process of people adjusting to each other with parity of esteem and not one group swallowing up another. The assimilation of travellers into the settled community was not a problem 30 or 40 years ago but it has become a problem within the last 20 years. This is an unfortunate reflection on wealthy modern Ireland. When I was going to school in Dingle and the travellers set up camp in town the children came to school and sat wherever they could find an empty desk; they might sit beside me or anybody else. I cannot imagine my mother, father or anybody in the community objecting to this. If they did it would reflect very badly on our perception of ourselves as "Christians".

I brought this view to teaching. I have said to traveller communities, school authorities and teachers that they are entitled to demand that traveller children arrive in school clean and ready to learn. If they cannot do this because of a lack of accommodation in the halting site, the school should provide facilities where they can wash and prepare so that they do not look or feel different from other children. I have come across much objection to this idea. Many "do good" liberals feel that traveller children should not be told that they have to be clean and hygienic like everybody else. However, we must provide — in schools, if necessary — washing and showering facilities for traveller children. This should be part of the assimilation process.

I realise I have strayed from the core of the Bill which has been brought forward because of the problems being experienced by local authorities in dealing with the issue of accommodation. Local authorities either have not had the courage to deal with the issue, have had the courage but no support, or have had to fight in both directions at once. The necessity of introducing this Bill is a reflection on the times in which we live. We should see travellers as part of our community. They have cultural values within Irish culture which are different from everybody else in many ways. Their language, culture, practices and celebrations are part of our celebrations and should be seen as such. They can enrich the rest of us in the community and we can learn and gain from them.

I commend the local authorities which are trying to address this difficult and thorny issue. It is important that the Houses of the Oireachtas and Members such as myself, who neither need the votes of local authority members or are members of a local authority, should compliment them on taking on a daunting, challenging and difficult task. I wish them and the Bill well. I presume the Minister will be open to changes if people have difficulties with the Bill. It is a good starting point and I commend it to the House.

I welcome this opportunity to debate this very important Bill and am glad that this urgently required legalisation has been introduced. We know this legislation follows the 1995 report of the Task Force on the Travelling Community which was established to advise and report on the needs of travellers and on Government policy in relation to them, with specific reference to the co-ordination of policy approaches by Departments and local authorities. The report made many recommendations. This Bill concerns the very vexed issue of accommodation, which all of us who are members of local authorities know is a critical issue which demands much sensitivity and determination. It is distressing that legislation is required to ensure we do our duty for those in our community.

I welcome the Bill and hope it will, sooner rather than later, have the effect of ensuring people are accommodated and that we do not have the awful prospect of people living on the side of the road.

The Minister gave a lengthy and detailed explanation of the Bill in his speech, a number of aspects of which I want to refer to in particular. I have no difficulty in helping ensure that every housing authority has a five year programme and am glad that there is much willingness in Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown County Council to cope with the problem. I wish that willingness extended to every member of the authority — I will refer to this issue later.

The explanatory and financial memorandum speaks about amendments to existing legislation which will:

provide that adoption of programmes will be a reserved function. but, in the event that the members fail to adopt a programme by a date to be specified by the Minister, the manager will be required to adopt the programme, by order.

This is a safeguard which should not be, but is, necessary. Over the past number of years I have seen a programme, put in place following wide consultation, being delayed. We know there are legal challenges mounted to decisions which are made. It is unfortunate that in many areas this provision will have to be used, something I very much regret.

Public consultation is critical in relation to accommodation programmes. In this context I wish to refer to the Crosscare report on accommodation for travelling people. It states that travelling people prefer accommodation which is located close to services such as shops, schools, health centres, post offices, etc. Obviously, they are no different from settled people in this regard. The report indicates that halting sites should have between five and 15 bays but that the ideal number appears to be around ten because anything below this causes difficulties in the provision of services. The report concluded that halting sites have little effect on residential property values if they are secluded or isolated from residential areas. This will come as a great surprise to many people in residential areas as one of the main arguments in relation to the provision of halting sites is that property values will fall — people whisper this. People also talk about dirt, etc. This argument is well rehearsed for those of us who are members of local authorities.

A public consultation process is critical. I agree with the provision of a national traveller consultative committee and that each county council should establish a committee to facilitate consultation with travellers regarding the preparation and implementation of traveller accommodation. Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown County Council has already gone ahead with this. The extent of the consultation which has taken place is remarkable and makes one realise how extensive the process can be. For example, the group established by us included seven councillors, a cathaoirleach, five traveller interest groups ranging from the parish for the travelling community to Crosscare, two independent travellers, three statutory bodies, namely, two vocational education committees and the Eastern Health Board, and other interests including residents' associations, which are critical, Focus Ireland, the Society of St. Vincent de Paul and council officials. An extensive process was put in train in order to consult as widely as possible. The key to success is consultation within the community and I wonder what bodies should be included in order to ensure the greatest possible level of consultation.

Sitting suspended at 1 p.m. and resumed at 2 p.m.

Before the sos I was referring to the provision in relation to public consultation. This is absolutely essential. It is remarkable that the recommendation of the Task Force on the Travelling Community described the importance of the improvement of relationships between the travellers and the settled communities through the development of mutual understanding and respect. The task force report stated that that requires an adjustment of attitudes towards one another and an acceptance of each other's culture. In order to achieve this key goal, the task force recommended that every opportunity be taken to increase levels of contact between the traveller and settled communities at national level and, more particularly, at local community level.

The latter would ensure that the settled population had a better understanding of the general needs of travellers, their culture and aspirations and of the contribution which cultural diversity makes to society. It would also enable travellers to understand more about the anxieties of the settled population, which we know only too well. It would contribute to the reduction in the present levels of conflict and tension which exist between both communities by helping to eradicate misconceptions, intolerance and hostility.

Where there is consultation within a community, it becomes easier and more feasible to ensure that the development of halting sites is not subject to challenge by local communities. This relates to another provision of the Bill, to extend statutory backing for the provision of financial support to housing authorities and the voluntary sector for the provision and management of traveller accommodation, which is another issue.

The revenue expenditure of Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown County Council, of which I am a member, in 1996 was £426,326 and the bulk of it involved the moving of travellers from one unauthorised site to another resulting in no tangible benefit whatever to the council or the travelling community, and the maintenance of sites.

The maintenance of sites is a critical issue and that goes back to the respect of the parties, the travelling and settled communities, for each other's culture. Obviously, it is important that the settled community is reassured about the maintenance of sites once it has finally agreed to them. It begs the question of the costs to local authorities of legal challenges to the setting up of halting sites. When one considers that Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown County Council spent nearly £500,000 with no return, I would hate to think of the cost of legal challenges on top of that and the fact that all of the money could be used to far greater benefit. Unfortunately, we have had limited success in developing halting sites because of the pressures from within the community and people's fears. That is why I said earlier that I believe the provision that the county manager must force a decision on people if the elected representatives cannot make it will come to pass because we all know how difficulty it is to ensure people follow through on plans.

I want to give an example of the type of difficulty which has been experienced as a result of not bringing forward and implementing plans. Speaking from personal experience, we, the members of Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown County Council, agreed a plan. We had seminars and consultation, and we chose sites. Then there were challenges at council level or legal challenges which were encouraged by one or two councillors. The result was that there were 48 travelling families living at the side of the road in unauthorised locations and an emergency had to be declared under the Housing Act, 1988, for a temporary site. Over a six month period four of the families had to move 12 times and they were living in the most appalling circumstances. The final location was so dangerous that at 6 a.m. on Good Friday the council workmen opened up a temporary site in the Cabinteely area. Of course, this resulted in us receiving irate telephone calls throughout Good Friday and Holy Saturday from people in the vicinity because they had not been consulted. The difficulty had been that there was nowhere else to put these people. Therefore, a hard stand, Portaloos, etc., had to be provided for those families because one could not have the spectacle of these people with their children living on the side of the road and the children in imminent danger from traffic in that unsuitable location.

This is the kind of thing that will happen unless people bite the bullet and follow through on the plans which have been drawn up by the councils. In the future people will open their doors and see a temporary halting site. People's fear is that the temporary sites will become permanent sites. The members of Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown County Council received an undertaking that the temporary site to which I refer will last no longer than 18 months. It is not a particularly suitable site, but at least the people are not in danger, the place can be kept clean and there is some degree of comfort for the families involved. This is the type of action which must take place over the next short while until agreement is reached on housing the various traveller families within the council area. That is why I am particularly anxious that we get this legislation through as quickly as possible.

There is another provision in the Bill which extends to halting sites the powers available to local authorities under the Housing (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act, 1997, relating to anti-social behaviour. There must be balance. This message, that there must be give and take in this, must be given to the traveller organisations and travellers. I was astounded at the amount of money which was spent by the housing department in cleaning up sites, but I could not put my hands on the figure last night. Some halting sites are cleaned up every day which involves a considerable cost. That is where the co-operation of the traveller families is necessary. There must be give and take. If people want to maintain a certain lifestyle, they must accept that it is not one which finds favour with a great number of people within society. Many people are prepared to support their culture and lifestyle provided they make allowances for the fact that society has certain rules and that they must operate within its laws. There must be give and take in this regard.

I welcome the passage of this Bill through the House and I thank the Minister for introducing it here. I am proud that the commitment in the programme for Government is being adhered to in this regard. This is an urgent issue because of the situation in which many families find themselves. This legislation will go a long way to alleviating the circumstances in which many of these travelling families live.

I welcome the Minister of State at the Department of Education and Science, Deputy O'Dea, to the House and I commend the Minister of State at the Department of the Environment and Local Government, Deputy Molloy, for introducing this Bill in the House. I welcome the legislation which represents the implementation of an important commitment in An Action Programme for the Millennium to promote social inclusion.

Imposed solutions are unlikely to work in the long term, therefore, I commend the Bill's emphasis on consultation as that is the only way forward. There must be consultation with travellers to ensure that accommodation is well planned and managed. Local and national consultative committees must be set up to recognise and address the fears and legitimate concerns of local communities about proposals for travellers' accommodation, to advise on the provision and management of travellers' accommodation which will improve their quality of life and to facilitate access by travellers to education and health services. This process of consultation presents a challenge to local authorities, travellers and travellers' support groups.

Local community fears about proposals for travellers' accommodation are prompted by experience of unofficial encampments or overcrowded sites. A comprehensive response by all local authorities would help to relieve this situation and to end the perception that some areas are asked to do more than their fair share. It is unsightly for motorists to see these people living along the roadside. That is why I am pleased this Bill has been introduced and I hope it has a successful passage through both Houses.

I welcome the inclusion of halting sites in the public consultation procedures under the planning and development regulations. It is appropriate that such proposals should be subject to the same procedures as apply to local authority developments generally.

The emphasis on improving the management of travellers' accommodation is also to be welcomed. This important factor would help to overcome the resistance of local communities to the provision of travellers' accommodation. Evidence of successful and well managed sites is the best means of gaining acceptance of new sites. I invite the media to play a role in this by reporting on sites, even those provided by local authorities, which are well managed. One site in Drogheda is well managed and there are no problems with the community in that area. We should promote this aspect rather than the unsightly scenes of caravans and travelling children along our major routes, such as the N2.

The provision of additional powers for local authorities to control unauthorised temporary dwellings will facilitate the implementation of the Government's commitment to meet the accommodation needs of travellers. Perhaps the travelling community should be divided into two sections. Senator Lanigan mentioned the wealthy travellers, who are known as traders. It is unfair that they are wealthier than many people who live in houses and have a number of caravans, cars, vans and jeeps parked along the roadside.

A small amenity area was provided by the community at a crossroads outside my home town of Castleblayney for people who wanted to stop for a picnic. However, it was taken over six months ago by travellers and the local authority has no power to move them. These people know their rights. There are ten to 15 caravans parked in a small area which must create a health risk. Their children attend the local school. A widow lives beside the crossroads and she is worried about this situation. I apologise for raising local issues.

We have all done that.

I would like to see the Minister make a distinction between travellers of a trader background and those travellers of a truly poor background whom we are trying to accommodate.

I compliment the Minister for bringing this Bill before the House.

I welcome this initiative from the Government. It has been long sought and should cause an improvement in the problems which have arisen regarding the accommodation of travellers.

I welcome in particular the fact that county councils are obliged to give annual reports. That is important as we may set out at the beginning of the year to do good but now, at the end of the year, we will be asked exactly what was achieved in that time.

With better accommodation we may be able to address the appalling health problems of the travelling community. From the cradle to the grave travellers have lower health levels than the rest of the population. They have higher stillbirth and infant mortality rates and the life expectancy of male and female travellers in this country is at least ten years less than the rest of the community. It is unusual to find a traveller who is over 60 years of age.

Women in the travelling community have less access to health care than other women. I remember women from the travelling community who did not deliver their babies within that community coming into the Rotunda Hospital on the crossbar of a bicycle to deliver their children and leaving almost immediately afterwards. It is a big thing for a traveller to leave their community and enter the settled community for health care. Anything which makes them feel more a part of the community is of help. They do not have to be the same as everyone else but they must understand they are part of the community and we want to give them the same health care we have given to the rest of the community.

It has been emphasised in the last few weeks how poor the child vaccination rate is in some areas of the State. Has the traveller community been singled out to find out the vaccination rate in that community? It is very important that they should be vaccinated in view of their increased risk of tetanus living so near the earth.

This Bill will give better stability to the community and as a result better access to education. This is most important as no matter how much health information you give people, there is no point distributing the information unless people are well enough educated to take cognisance of this information and to use it. It is interesting to note that the most important thing to a child under five years of age, apart from clean water, is the educational level of the child's mother. If a child has a mother who has not had satisfactory primary education, it is difficult for that child to thrive in life.

I welcome this initiative and point out that it is useful for annual reports to be introduced.

Tá an-áthas orm go bhfuil lucht taistil agus a riachtanais ó thaobh títhíochta á phlé sa Teach anseo. Molaim an tAire de bharr an saothar atá déanta aige. Níl aon amhras go gcabhróidh an Bille seo go mór le cuid dena fadhbanna atá ann go háitiúil a reiteach.

I welcome the Bill placed before us by the Minster. My only regret is that it did not come sooner. Having read the Minister's speech, it is evident he has taken on board many of the difficulties which have been experienced in the provision of proper housing for the travelling people and that he is endeavouring to put together a consensus and to point a way forward. I hope that all who have the opportunity and authority will take the responsibility, as outlined, on board and will make every effort to solve a great tragedy for our community.

In many areas throughout the country there have been negative responses to efforts made to do justice to the travelling community in the matter of housing. This negative reaction, which is often acrimonious, will always find its way into the columns of the papers in the functional jurisdiction of the council of that area. That does not help as it creates further problems, increasing the perception that the travelling community are a troublesome section of our society, responsible for the plight in which they find themselves and that there is no point in endeavouring to solve the difficulties they have. It behoves us all to appeal to local authority members, members of a community in which a family will be housed, the media or anyone in a position of influence, to act in a balanced way.

I am aware that casting aspersions on any particular section which has been part of this tragic drama which we see being played out before us would serve no purpose, but anyone who travels through Ireland and encounters a road side camp is taken aback by the conditions there, conditions which are unacceptable in this century. Think of the reaction of a visitor to the State who would not have encountered a similar situation in his or her own country. They must regard us as a very uncaring and uncharitable people. I have no doubt that if the situation were reversed and a similar plight existed in another country, many of the good people who take up causes here on behalf of the underprivileged and deprived would be making a great deal of noise about such a situation. That may be simplistic but it is the reality, nevertheless. If you look at the problem from the outside it is a shocking indictment of us as a nation and as a people.

That is not the whole story, however. I compliment the voluntary groups which have tried to fill the void which others whose responsibility it was have not filled. I pay tribute to those voluntary groups which have helped the travelling community and encouraged the families to have their children sent to school so they are given a proper opportunity in life and who have tried to relieve the difficulties of roadside living.

I also pay tribute to any section of the media, in fictional drama in particular, which has endeavoured to depict travellers in an understanding manner, as human beings like ourselves, with the same feelings and sensibilities, who are entitled to the full protection of the State. The RTÉ programme "Glenroe" is particularly worthy of mention. I am pleased with how the traveller community is depicted in that series. Its members are shown to be integrated into the local community and to be responsible people. Without being over-dramatic and clouding the issue, the series shows them to be industrious people who are anxious to look after their children's welfare.

The relationship between the traveller and settled communities is most important. Some of us have a romantic view of travellers. I have many pleasing memories of travellers calling to my home and of our efforts to help them. However, there was a particular dignity attached to travellers in those days. Usually, they did not come seeking alms but offering their services as tradesmen or to sell goods. As time passed, however, the trades and skills of travellers were rendered redundant.

When Ireland was preparing to enter the EEC, small and large industries were prepared for the culture shock of competition and change with which they would be faced. Subventions were provided in many cases, as were specialist services and training. No official effort was made to prepare the traveller community for the changes they would experience in their lives, and that omission is not easy to correct at this stage. A long period of time has elapsed and changes have taken place both in the traveller community and in the settled community in that regard.

We must accept the fact that sometimes we demand too much from the traveller community when we endeavour to integrate it in the settled community. Its members come from a base of deprivation which is not of their making and we must accept that. When Irish people emigrated to America in the last century they, too, left a deprived situation to move into a highly developed and what was, at the time, an affluent society. They brought with them some of the excesses of their deprivation in a social sense and otherwise. Those emigrants depended on the understanding of the people in their new country to help them to adapt to their new home, so such transitions are not a particularly new experience for Irish people.

Our perception of travellers is usually highly uninformed. There is a tendency to generalise, for instance. If one traveller family steps out of line, settled people who are not inclined to be careful about what they say tend to paint the entire traveller community with the same brush. However, if a member of the settled community in a given street offends, do we blame the entire street or town? Of course not, but the settled community seems to think it is acceptable to do it to the traveller community even though, by so doing, it aggravates the problem.

I commend the consultative process proposed in the Bill. It is particularly important that the traveller community, in partnership with the other recommended participants in the process, has an input into its future. We should not legislate above its head. I have always been impressed by the spokespersons for the traveller community whom I have heard on current affairs programmes on radio and television. They can enunciate their fears, vision, concerns and ambitions with great clarity and I wish that ability could be relayed into local areas when situations are developing. The consultative process will succeed in doing that.

One of the statistics provided by the Minister of State is dismaying. It shows that instead of the number of families on the roadside decreasing, it has increased by 100 in one year. Have our policies failed? Has the traveller community not responded to them? Have travellers opted not to take a house and returned to the roadside? Whatever the reason, this Bill is the only way forward. However, there is little point in having it on the Statute Book unless people are prepared to accept its provisions. In that context, I wish to make a suggestion which has probably already been made. It is not sufficient to pass a Bill such as this and publicise it to local authorities and other concerned agencies. There should also be a pre-consultative process with those authorities and agencies so that, in some way, the damage from negative publicity and previous failures can be undone. We must seek goodwill, positive acceptance and the necessary resources.

I believe every local authority will respond positively if each is given to understand that this measure is for real, that resources will be provided and that targets will be set. Targets are particularly important because there is little point in having an open-ended process. We should propose that by a certain year the problem will be solved. It is not an insurmountable problem. While the increase is frightening, the overall numbers are not.

We must remember that life will not get easier for traveller families. The more affluent the settled community becomes, the more difficult it appears to be for that community to accept the existence of the traveller family on the one hand and to find a solution to its problems on the other. I do not wish to sound cynical in this regard but the more affluent settled people become, the less concerned they appear to be about their neighbours or about people with difficulties. Fewer courtesies are extended, particularly to travellers, even though they are more vulnerable. There are not many votes in the travelling community and not many people are prepared to put their heads above the parapet in this regard. In fact, in a political sense it is probably dangerous to so do. Nevertheless, we will be indicted as a nation for the fact that the accommodation problem for travellers has continued and does not appear to have been diluted to any degree.

I welcome the Bill and hope there will be a balanced response to it. I also hope there will be a consultative process before its implementation in addition to the consultative process provided for in its provisions. However, targets are vital and must be set. My final appeal is to the media, which has great power at its disposal. It now has a wonderful opportunity to help solve this problem and it is incumbent on its members, like everybody else, to present the right atmosphere in which this can be done.

I do not have a great deal to say on this occasion. Unusually, I received no briefing from the traveller community. It is usually effective in providing extensive briefing material but, for some reason, it has not contacted me on this occasion. I am not sure whether I should interpret this to mean that the community is happy with the Bill, as that would be unusual for any group. Most groups in society appear to be able to find something to cavil about in legislation.

However, in the absence of any briefing by or consultation with members of the traveller community, I will offer my own views on this Bill. I make this point because in normal circumstances, even if I had not received briefing material, I would attempt to contact and consult them.

It is extremely patronising to purport to speak on behalf of any group if one has not made an attempt to discover the nature of its views. This is an important principle and I am glad it is included in the Bill in the form of the National Traveller Accommodation Consultative Group. That is an extremely valuable and welcome development and I will return to deal with it later. A question arises in respect of the balance of numbers on that committee and I was not completely convinced by the Minister of State's comments in that regard. However, it is extremely important that travellers are consulted and not merely dominated or patronised. I am concerned because the Bill states that the participation of elected representatives from local authorities, etc., on the committee can be up to 50 per cent whereas traveller representation is confined to 25 per cent.

I welcome the sensitive approach displayed by the Minister of State when he referred to the nature of the traveller ethos and the importance of putting in place properly services transient sites. We will not be able to declare that travellers are acceptable once they stop travelling and settle down to a life of urban or city centre bliss like everyone else. We must respect their right to travel, which is extremely important at this time of the year.

I was preceded by my distinguished colleague, Senator Ó Murchú who reminded me of a poem about this time of year which I loved to read in school. It contains the lines:

Anois teacht an Earraigh,

Beidh an lá ag dul chun síneadh,

Is tar éis na Féile Bríde,

Ardóidh mé mo sheol.

When I first read that poem, it made the hair on the back of my neck stand on end. I must have traveller blood in me because when I heard the lovely phrase "I'll hoist up my sails and off I'll go", I thought "What a wonderful idea". We should be loath to extinguish this capacity for choice on behalf of travellers if travelling is in their blood. From meeting travellers and reading interviews with them, I understand that, for a sizable proportion of them, part of their experience of being human and being Irish at the end of the 20th century is their continued desire to be allowed to roam freely throughout the country. I welcome the fact that the Minister of State appears to be sensitive to this desire.

It is an indication of the increasing complexity in Irish political life that such sensitivity exists. Between 15 to 20 years ago certain unscrupulous political figures gained political capital from bashing the travellers and calling them by unpleasant nicknames. Early in my political career I recall fighting for the acceptance of amendments to protect two groups of people, neither of which was extremely popular, namely, the gay community and the travellers. Those amendments were accepted and I no longer have to bother tabling similar amendments because both groups are automatically catered for, almost as a matter of course, and successive Governments have taken their concerns on board.

However, discrimination continues to exist. Before a recent trip abroad, I heard an interview with Francie Barrett who represented this country at the Olympic Games. He and his wife were invited to a function in a place of public resort in Galway but when they arrived they were refused admission. That is extremely bruising and insulting and it appears there is considerable contradiction between the satisfaction this country showed in securing his skills as an athlete and then denying him access to a place of public resort.

I accept that people should be denied access to pubs, hotels, cinemas, etc., on the basis of their behaviour alone. I have often been asked if I would welcome the arrival of travellers — that term is not usually employed — at the bottom of my street. I have replied that I would welcome them as long as they behaved in a way which did not disturb me. The members of any community are entitled to require respect for their psychological and personal space. I am disturbed almost every night of the week, not by travellers but by the drunken remnants of the middle class returning home from four well known boozing haunts in the centre of Dublin. My house was broken into, not by a member of the traveller community but by a happily married respectable man whose profession is burglary. The individual in question lives in the city centre, in circumstances of reasonable affluence, and even though he was arrested he managed to skip bail. Imagine what the headlines would have been if that man had been a traveller.

I accept a number of comments made by other Members about the mess created by travellers. I admit that there are eyesores in some areas. I have friends who work for various local authorities and if I mention the travellers they roll their eyes and inform me that I have no obligation to provide them with housing, deal with them, etc. Although I have occasionally noticed untidy halting sites, I have also seen reasonably affluent areas throughout the city of Dublin in the same state. There is no doubt that we are a profoundly dirty people.

The present incumbent of the ministerial chair, the Minister of State at the Department of Environment and Local Government, Deputy Dan Wallace — I forgot to observe tradition and welcome him to the House — lives in Cork. Anyone travelling on the train to Cork who looks out the window at Newbridge will see a development of spanking new houses, the owners of which seem to have thrown the entire contents of their domestic rubbish over their back hedges for the past six to 12 months. That rubbish is lodged where every "traveller" on the train can see it. What impression does that make? Obviously the people in these middle class homes do not notice the dirt because it is out of sight and out of mind. However, their behaviour betrays a "dirty" mentality. What accusations would be made if those people were travellers?

I accept that people may discriminate on the basis of behaviour alone. I recall running a discotheque for charitable purposes in the centre of the city of Dublin and I had to deal with some real beauties. I discriminated rigorously, not on the basis of appearance, dress, accent or social background but on that of behaviour alone. I agree that travellers should be subjected to the same rules as everyone else.

A serious problem exists in respect of the traveller community. I do not have the figures at my disposal but a recent examination of the age profile and survival rates among travellers revealed that they have a frighteningly low life expectancy which is substantially different to that of the settled population. That should raise a number of questions in our minds. Perhaps it has something to do with the conditions in which travellers live on the roadside or it could be the fault of a higher rate of alcoholism. We must inquire why travellers have such a low life expectancy.

The Minister of State said that "the response of housing authorities to the accommodation needs of travellers has been somewhat uneven". I hope the wise and sensible provisions in the Bill, which include the possibility of requiring neighbouring local authorities to co-operate, will obviate this difficulty. I have heard representatives of local authorities claiming to have done as much as could be expected of them and passing the responsibility to neighbouring counties. A local authority should not be able to get away with claiming dereliction of duty by a neighbouring authority. It will be useful to require local authorities to co-operate with each other.

I welcome the transit halting sites to facilitate, as the Minister of State said, ". the nomadic lifestyle of travellers on a basis which takes account of the rights and concerns of the whole community". That strikes the correct balance. The Minister of State also said

Another important change in this area is the new requirement to assess the needs to accommodate the future growth in traveller families in respect of a period to be defined by the Minister.

It is sensible to have an actuarial type calculation to assess how matters are developing. It is worrying to see that there was an increase in the number of traveller families on the roadside in unofficial encampments from 1,040 at the end of November 1996 to 1,127 a year later; despite the efforts of Government and local authorities there has been an increase. The Minister of State pointed out that over a five year period, despite efforts to provide accommodation, the number of families on the roadside has fallen by only 53.

Section 22 refers to the consultative process.

The Minister of State said:

Section 22 provides that the local traveller accommodation consultative committees shall comprise representatives of the members and officials for the appointing authority and representatives of local travellers and traveller bodies. The section also provides that elected representatives will not exceed one half of the membership, while traveller representatives must make up at least one-quarter of the membership. The proposed parameters for the representation of each group are intended to ensure a balance of representation . In preparing this section, I also gave careful consideration to the inclusion of representatives of other groups and authorities . I am satisfied that the composition proposed is appropriate.

I wonder about the balance, particularly with regard to the heavy loading of nearly 50 per cent of local authority representatives as against 25 per cent of traveller representatives. In other words, there will be twice as many representatives from the settled community as from the traveller community. The settled community has many avenues by which to make its views known to the local authorities but the traveller community has very restricted access. Having a greater traveller representation on a body intended to consult with those who will be most closely affected would be appropriate.

I welcome the Bill and I echo the Minister of State's praise for the work of former Minister of State, Deputy McManus, and the task force set up to deal with the traveller community. Many people have been involved in helping the travellers over many years, yet nationally we have done a disservice to those in State and religious institutions who have been involved with travellers. Many priests, nuns and community groups have done great work for the travelling community and have been pioneers in educating the public about travellers. They have put in much voluntary effort working with young travellers to help them. I congratulate those people who have made substantial inroads into the problems facing travellers. I have seen their work and the extent of their personal effort and dedication. Such a community based approach will provide long-term solutions.

The Bill is a commitment by the State to a national plan, setting out responsibilities which must be adopted by local authorities, county managers and elected representatives. It provides for a five year plan which, in a monitored and consultative way and with the full support of public representatives, will lead to great improvements for travellers.

Every county must become part of the National Travellers Accommodation Consultative Group. It is important that consultation will take place between travellers and local communities. The public is fearful of travellers and there is fear in the traveller community. In some cases positions have become very entrenched which has led to an inclination on the part of travellers to strengthen themselves in groups. They fear parts of the settled community. When people have to endure such circumstances they tend to act in groups, although it may not be in their own best interests or in the public interest. There is a need for consultation, understanding and communication.

The Government introduced equality legislation concerning disabled people. We are now tackling one of the greatest national embarrassments, the way in which we have dealt with travellers. The local authority in Mayo has made solid progress. There are about 50 families in the area at present but there are many young people who will marry and will need accommodation in the future. Unless the plan is adopted and operated in a consultative manner in the near future, there may be a backlash from the traveller community.

From my contact with the traveller community I am aware that many travellers are anxious to educate their children and to move off the roadside. I recently met an elderly couple who asked me if they would have to die on the roadside. It is tragic that such a question should arise in this day and age. These people lived good lives and did not cause problems for the community. We must address such problems positively and quickly.

I welcome the Bill because it puts responsibility on the elected representatives to adopt the necessary structures for its implementation in the county development plans. From experience I know that much pressure will be exerted unless this matter is handled properly. I am sure my colleagues have had the same experience. We will have to deal with this pressure in a responsible and rational way in order to make the necessary progress.

It behoves everybody to carry that responsibility so that we can make the progress necessary to house people within the timeframe of this plan. It can be done without great difficulty if the commitment is there. In its consultative role the Department should monitor the progress of our councils. Each council has statistics concerning people indigenous to the county so one should be able to see the progress that is being made nationally. It is a fundamental aspect of the plan.

There was never a shortage of finance from the Department to deal with travellers but, in the past, money was not spent because the issues were not faced up to. While there was no shortage of money to deal with the issue, there was a lack of commitment, responsibility and the strength to do it. There was no cohesion among the communities to make progress.

I have seen great progress being made by individual social workers with a definite interest in examining the needs of travellers. They consulted with the community at large, including public representatives. Such a backup service for traveller families allows them to adjust easily to a range of modern facilities. Through the concept of equality they are encouraged to adapt to the education process. While some difficulties remain to be overcome, progress in housing travellers is most noticeable in areas where the groundwork has been done by consultative committees.

We require substantial backup services from health boards and local authority social workers in order to house the numbers of people envisaged in this plan. That is fundamental to attaining the objective of a good settlement plan wherein people will be happy with their new accommodation.

Some transient groups will not be dealt with within the framework of the Bill. Some counties have difficult problems with such groups who would appear to be substantially well off and are not indigenous to the counties they move into. They have their own trades and are obviously good business people; one can see that from their lifestyle and accommodation.

The Minister should examine these transient groups whose members should have to pay rent for the facilities provided to them in the counties they visit. If tax incentives were provided, the private sector could participate with local government in providing areas for transient groups to work from. It would be better than having them choose their own spots without any consideration for residents and businesses in a county.

They should not be a law unto themselves.

They are substantial business people and are very literate. They know exactly what they are doing and how to work the system. We should take charge by providing places for them. We should provide the necessary management for such places through the private sector while charging a fee. They should not be allowed to work along our national primary routes at will. Many towns have this serious problem and they should deal with it. That is one way of doing it which would help the State's resources. It would be an attempt to manage the ad lib movement of transient people.

I welcome this positive Bill which, I hope and believe, will make a great contribution towards people's quality of life and will bring about a change in the overall considerations of local authority members. I hope that in the not to distant future we will see progress from this consultative approach and that we will be able to measure up to our responsibilities as public representatives.

Tá mé an-bhuíoch ar fad de na Seanadóirí a labhair san díospóireacht seo faoi an ábhar chun áit chónaithe cheart a chur ar fáil do lucht taistil. Táim cinnte nach bhfuil éinne sa Seanad nach bhfuil den tuairim go bhfuil sé thar am don Stáit áit chónaithe a bheith ag gach éinne sa tír agus nár chóir go mbeadh éinne ina chonaí ar thaobh an bhóthair mar atá an-chuid de lucht taistil sa tír seo. Cé go bhfuil sáriarracht déanta ag na h-údaráis áitiúla agus ag an-chuid daoine a bhí ag obair go deonach, mar sin féin mar a thais-peán mé san oráid a thug mé ar dtús, tá níos mó 1,000 clainn fós nach bhfuil áit chónaithe sásúil acu. Tá sé mar aidhm agam agus ag an Rialtas go ndéanfaimid gach iarracht chun a chinntiú ag deireadh thréimhse an Rialtais seo, má fhágtar ann muid le ceithre go leath nó cúig bliana, nach mbeidh aon duine de na clainn sin fágtha ar thaobh an bhóthair.

Tuigim go maith na deachreachtaí atá ann. Tá mé ag plé leis an gceist seo mar is eol do chuid de na Seanadóirí le suas le 30 bliain. Níl a fhios agam an bhfuil éinne eile sa Teach go bhfuil an méid sin taithí aige ar na deacreachtaí agus ar na constaicí a chuirtear ós ar gcomhair, ag iarraidh rud éigean fiúntach a dhéanamh ar son lucht taistil sa tír seo.

Bhí mé sa Roinn seo cheana ins na seachtóidí agus cé go bhfuil a lán dul chun chinn déanta ó shoin, ag an am chéanna, níl sé sásúil go bhfuil daoine ina gconaí ar thaobh na mbóithre. Tá mé an-bhuíoch as ucht an dtachaíocht atá tugtha ag na Seanadóirí don Bhille seo san méid atá ráite go dtí seo. Beimíd ag plé le mionphointí a tháinig amach le linn na díospóireachta nuair a thagim ar ais an tseachtain seo chugainn chun an Bille a phlé.

I thank all the Senators who have contributed to this debate. In particular, I appreciate the sincere support expressed for the objectives of the Bill and the measures set out in it. I have taken careful note of the all the issues raised.

Senators take a keen interest in housing issues. As the Minister of State with responsibility for housing, this is the fourth occasion on which I have participated in debates on housing issues in Seanad Éireann since my appointment less than a year ago. I know Members are conscious of the needs of the most disadvantaged in society and of the crucial role of Government in ensuring that public policy responds to these needs. This Bill is a clear demonstration of the commitment of the Government, as set out in the Action Programme for the Millennium, to promote social inclusion. The measures set out in the Bill will ensure that each local authority addresses the accommodation of travellers in a planned and co-ordinated manner within a defined time frame. It provides for consultation with travellers, other statutory and voluntary bodies and the public. All local authorities will be required to adopt and implement five year programmes in parallel with each other. These measures involve a change in policy from the approach adopted for many years. For over 30 years we have relied on the exercise by local authorities of discretionary powers with capital funding and encouragement from central Government. While that approach has delivered almost 3,400 units of accommodation for traveller families, we still have the sad situation where in excess of 1,100 traveller families have no official accommodation. The measures proposed in the Bill are necessary if we are to meet the accommodation needs of these families and ensure that their future needs are met.

All the concerns of Members will be looked at before Committee Stage next week. I come with an open mind to these debates and any reasonable and worthwhile suggestions from Senators will be considered to see if they can be included in the Bill.

A number of Senators referred to the respective roles of elected members and managers under the Bill. I want to respond to the suggestion that managers are being empowered to override elected members. The Bill proposes that the adoption of the programme will be a reserved function, that is, it must be adopted by resolution of the members of the authority. However, if members fail to adopt the programme within the time allowed, the manager will be required to adopt it, subject to any modification which he or she considers necessary.

Senator Walsh suggested that the proposed minimum period of two months for consideration of a draft programme was not sufficient for councillors to make the necessary decisions. I am concerned that there is no undue delay in the adoption of a programme. I hope members will have ample opportunity to exercise their right to adopt a programme which fulfils their statutory obligations. It should be noted that the two month period proposed is a minimum period. When specifying the date by which programmes must be adopted I will take account of the need for adequate time to complete that stage of the process. I will also look again at the two months proposal but the six months suggested by Senator Walsh might be excessive and might be seen to delay the process unnecessarily. The time to be allowed should and will facilitate councillors to exercise their right to adopt a programme. It is only if they fail to exercise their power that the manager is required to step in. Senator Gallagher made a number of suggestions in relation to the provisions relating to the manager's powers. These will require more detailed consideration but the suggestion in relation to the period allowed to the manager to make his decision could be favourably considered.

I believe local authority members will take their responsibilities seriously and the measures in the Bill will help them do so, even where there is strong or vocal opposition locally. In particular, members will have the benefit of a thorough and structured consultation process which will ensure that all legitimate concerns can be considered before a programme is adopted. They will also have the assurance that all local authorities are approaching traveller accommodation issues on the same basis and within the same time frame. This is especially significant because in the past there was a perception that other local authorities were not doing their bit. That has helped to strengthen opposition to the provision of accommodation for travellers in some areas.

Local authorities who were diligent and accepted they had a social responsibility to provide suitable accommodation facilities for traveller families in their area brought forward plans and had them approved and funded by the Department. This resulted in the word going out among the traveller community that these local authorities were providing facilities for them, the result of which was an increase in the local traveller population. Many young people moved into these areas in the expectation of benefiting from the progressive attitude of the councils, whereas other councils who were negligent in their social duty in this area had the pressures on them eased. I have experienced this problem over many years. It is important that every local authority brings forward plans based on the needs of the families in their own areas. This will prevent doubling the traveller population in certain areas.

Senator Walsh referred to the inclusion of other interests on the national and local traveller accommodation consultative committees. It was suggested that the local committees should include representatives of the local settled community on the one hand and, on the other, Senator Norris suggested there should be stronger representation for the traveller community.

Regarding the national committee, I am satisfied that the composition provided for in the Bill is appropriate. A committee has been in operation on an ad hoc basis for many months. The committee was set up by my predecessor and has worked successfully since then. The Bill will put that committee on a statutory basis and will allow for the expansion of the existing membership. The committee will bring together representatives of both elected members and management of local authorities, traveller organisations, my Department and a nominee of the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform who has overall responsibility for monitoring the implementation of a wide range of recommendations of the Task Force on the Travelling Community. In addition, there will be an independent chairperson and there is provision for the Minister to appoint two other persons with experience as well as an interest in the welfare of travellers. I believe the composition of the national committee is appropriate. However, I will be happy to listen to any other suggestions Members wish to make.

Regarding local committees, members of local authorities who will form part of the membership of these committees are in the best position to represent the views of the wider community. In deciding the composition of these committees, I must take account of several considerations — the role of the committees, which is consultative in nature with decision making remaining the responsibility of the housing authorities, the particular focus of the committees on improving relations and understanding between local authorities and travellers, the fact that much of the work of the committees will involve consideration of matters of detail concerning the assessment of accommodation needs of travellers and the planning, design and management of proposals to meet those needs, the need to keep membership to manageable levels and the difficulties inherent in seeking to identify representatives of the settled community, other than the elected representatives. I have given this matter a lot of consideration and it would be very difficult to identify who should represent the settled community on a committee whose membership cannot change to suit whichever community is concerned about halting site proposals. The best people to represent the settled community are those whom they have elected in their area. Traveller representation, at 25 per cent, is very strong. When something new is done, someone will always want more. However, officials must also be included on the committee. I am satisfied we have got the balance right but I will be happy to listen to any suggestions on Committee Stage.

The Bill provides for public consultation at two points. First, when the five year programme is drawn up, the public must be consulted and their views will be taken into consideration before the programme is adopted. Second, because of the removal of the exemption under Part X of the Planning Acts, when the programme is implemented and a proposal for facilities in an area is made, there must be public notification of the development — whether it is a halting site or group housing. These new measures will greatly expand public involvement and transparency. I hope the House accepts them as worthwhile and beneficial. They will meet many of the concerns of people who have not been consulted in the past.

In addition to the measures in the Bill, I have already announced the removal of the exemption under Part X of the regulations. The Minister for the Environment and Local Government, Deputy Dempsey, has amended the regulations concerning this exemption and this will come into effect from 31 May 1998.

A number of Senators queried the distinction between relevant housing authorities and housing authorities and the basis for deciding which authorities should be designated as relevant housing authorities. The designation of the larger housing authorities as relevant housing authorities for the purposes of this Bill reflects a number of considerations. The relevant housing authorities will be required to prepare, adopt and secure the implementation of local traveller accommodation programmes. This is a significant task which is more appropriately discharged by the larger housing authorities.

It is also desirable to avoid having a multiplicity of programmes in a county. There is no uniformity in the number of urban district councils or local housing authorities. Some counties have a large number of sub-county council authorities while others do not. Outside of Bray and Dundalk, which are named in the Bill because of their size, it is important that the larger councils avoid duplication.

The Bill provides for 41 relevant housing authorities. If we were to allow all housing authorities, 88 different authorities would be drawing up these programmes which would result in a multiplicity of programmes in some counties. I am open to other suggestions but I think what we have proposed is the most sensible and reasonable way to proceed.

The decision to assign certain functions to the larger housing authorities is also in line with current provisions in the Housing Acts, particularly section 23 of the 1992 Act. These provisions allow the Minister to transfer responsibility for housing functions between different housing authorities. Section 6(2) of this Bill allows the Minister to apply those provisions in respect of the functions of relevant housing authorities.

Senator Gallagher and other Senators referred to the five mile and one mile radii provided for in section 3. Senator Gallagher suggested these distances should be increased. A prohibition of temporary dwellings within one mile of existing traveller accommodation takes account of the recommendations of the task force on the traveller community which considered this issue in great depth. Unlike the other provisions, there is no requirement to provide alternative accommodation. In these circumstances, I am reluctant to extend the radius beyond one mile.

As regards the power to move temporary dwellings to a site within five miles, this distance may be extended by an unspecified amount in the circumstances set out in section 31 (1)(b). This provision will address the concerns of Senator Gallagher, Senator O'Brien and others. Senator Lanigan asked why the powers in section 31 are discretionary. This provides local authorities with the flexibility to respond to problems arising from authorised temporary dwellings.

All the points raised will be taken into consideration on Committee Stage. I invite Senators to table amendments in order to have a good debate. The widespread response to the Bill is encouraging. There is a cross party approach to put forward effective proposals to provide accommodation for a large section of our community who are in many cases living in deplorable conditions. This cannot be justified and it is an embarrassment in a country where the economy is raging ahead and house prices have risen to such an astronomical extent that the Government had to intercede. People are living in dire circumstances on the side of the road and this cannot be tolerated.

The cross party approach to this Bill is highlighted by the fact that a previous Government took the initiative to set up a task force. Earlier policies were successful but did not eliminate the problem. Although great progress was made, as highlighted by the figures I cited, one quarter of the total population has been left without adequate accommodation.

I express my appreciation to the former Minister of Equality and Law Reform, Mr. Taylor, who set up the task force. My predecessor as Minister of State with responsibility for housing, Deputy McManus, was chairperson of that task force and I am honoured to carry on the work initiated by her. I have had an interest in this area for many years and I hope the all party support for the Bill in the Seanad will be reflected in the Dáil and in the wider community, particularly in local authorities who are at the coalface of this issue.

I attended many angry community representatives' and residents' meetings on dark winter nights and Sunday evenings where no official was in sight and the local authority members had to face the community about decisions made by managers implementing the then Government's policy on the provision of facilities for these unfortunate families. This Bill involves local authority members in the drawing up of plans, with the manager only becoming involved if members fail to reach a satisfactory agreement. That is a wise and appropriate approach because no Government can stand aside and say it cannot do anything about this problem. Where the will exists it can move mountains and if it exists in regard to providing proper facilities for the traveller community within a specified period and that can be done within the five year programme the councils have been asked to draw up then so be it. The Government will not lack when it comes to providing the financial resources needed to support the plans of local authorities to provide facilities on the ground.

I would be happier if traveller families had a greater preference for permanent housing than halting sites. A caravan is not a satisfactory or suitable place for people to live in our climate, particularly families with large numbers of children and I am not happy about that. However, that is their preferred choice and we should continue to encourage them to take up regular housing rather than caravans and halting sites.

They have a nomadic tradition and want the freedom to move, especially at this time of the year. That is very much part of their lifestyle and culture and they look forward to the summer when they can visit different parts of the country. If they felt constrained by a house, they might not be able to move. They have not worked out that one can have a caravan beside a house similar to one on a halting site. There is nothing to stop them moving whenever they want provided they do not abandon the houses.

A great deal of work must be done and I hope the Bill will make a substantial contribution in achieving the Government's objective. I thank those who worked on the Bill prior to my taking office and I look forward to the Committee Stage debate next week.

Question put and agreed to.

When is it proposed to take Committee Stage?

On Wednesday, 6 May 1998.

Committee Stage ordered for Wednesday, 6 May 1998.
Sitting suspended at 3.35 p.m. and resumed at 6 p.m.
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