Seanad Éireann debate -
Thursday, 14 May 1998

Vol. 155 No. 13

Order of Business.

Mr. Cassidy

The Order of Business for today is items 1, 2 and 3. I propose to take, without debate at the conclusion of business, an Earlier Signature Motion for the Oil Pollution of the Sea (Civil Liabilities and Compensation) (Amendment) Bill, 1998. This will be circulated later in the day.

Item 1, Report and Final Stages to be taken today and at the conclusion of item 1, item 2, all Stages. Item 3, Statements on recent developments and future challenges facing banking in Ireland, to be taken from 2 p.m. to 4 p.m. with contributions of spokespersons not to exceed 15 minutes and all other Senators ten minutes. Senators may share time.

Items 1 and 2, if not previously concluded, to resume after the conclusion of Statements.

Mr. Manning

As far as I am concerned the Order of Business is agreed. I ask the Leader about the Statements he promised yesterday on India and on nuclear proliferation there. I think he confirmed that these will take place tomorrow and I presume, in spite of what he said yesterday, spokespersons on Foreign Affairs and not necessarily the Leaders of the groups may speak.

I beg the indulgence of the House in raising again the issue of the Shannon River Council Bill.

This is of importance to the House for the following reason. This Bill was passed by this House. It is now the property of the Seanad. A great deal of effort, time and thought went into the Bill and it had all-party agreement. We are being asked, on the written say-so of a Minister, to accept that he has now implemented what was in this Bill. It is a bad day for this House when we accept the word of any Minister simply as set out in a two-page letter. It is our job at least to ask questions, to scutinise and to find out. The Leader of the House has such respect for this institution that he would not want us to be seen to cave into the demand of a Minister. It is important for the respect of this House and for the Bill that we be given a chance to debate the Bill again and to hear from the Minister why he believes the proposals made by his party colleagues in the last Seanad are no longer relevant. I ask the Leader to deal with this matter in a way that is in the best interest of the House and of the people who would be affected by the Bill.

Mr. O'Toole

I would like, very strongly, to support the point made by Senator Manning. The Shannon River Council Bill, 1997, is the property of this House. It was passed at Second Stage and, under Standing Orders, it is required to be resubmitted at Committee Stage. I distinguish between it and the Shannon River Council Bill, 1998, which is on the Order Paper. The 1997 Bill should now be resubmitted. It is not good enough to say that the matter has been responded to by a Minister by action in a couple of counties. The River Shannon has implications for many more counties than those mentioned in the Minister's letter. I would hope for support from those Senators on the Government side who were so vociferous in our discussion of this Bill in the last Seanad. The question is raised of the integrity of our beliefs and commitment. It would be important to return to the Official Report and read the speeches made when this matter was discussed by the last Seanad. I appeal to the Leader not to be browbeaten by any Minister, to assert himself and to insist that the matter be included in the business of the House as soon a possible.

Mr. Costello

We also agree to the Order of Business as announced by the Leader of the House. I welcome the speedy response by the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, Dr. Mo Mowlam, and the British Government to the report of the Victims of Northern Ireland Commission by appointing a Minister for victims. It is a welcome focus and emphasis.

In the context of item 5 on the Order Paper, I wish to refer to what appears to be a considerable escalation in the Garda dispute, namely, the confrontation between the Garda Commissioner and senior management, the continuing protests outside the House and on the streets and the threat to the Tour de France, with gardaí seeking to get the sympathetic support of the French police during the Irish stage. The continuing escalation is serious and it appears the Government is doing nothing to resolve the issue. We want action as it is not good enough that the forces of law and order are protesting on the streets.

An Cathaoirleach

Before calling other Senators, I insist that Members confine themselves to questions to the Leader which directly relate to the Order of Business and the business of the House. Lengthy contributions are not in order.

Labhrás Ó Murchú

I wish to draw the attention of the Leader to very worrying reports which have come to our notice, namely, the drastic reduction in blood donations. I understand some non-emergency operations may not go ahead. This is causing a crisis for hospitals. Will the Leader raise the matter with the Minister for Health and Children as public fears will have to be allayed? We are currently importing blood from The Netherlands where stocks are also low. The House has a responsibility to play a role in this regard. Blood donations have decreased by between 25 and 30 per cent.

An Cathaoirleach

This is a very important matter but under Standing Orders of the House matters such as this may be raised in another manner. It is not in order to raise such matters on the Order of Business. I have given quite an amount of latitude to the Senator and I ask him to conclude.

Labhrás Ó Murchú

I appreciate what has been said. The crisis in our hospitals is an urgent matter and I ask the Leader to follow up the points I am making with the Minister.

Dr. Henry

I wrote to the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform at least six months ago regarding the importance of pointing out to immigrants and refugees legislation covering children in particular. I have also raised the matter in the House when discussing refugee problems. Will the Leader find out whether agencies dealing with refugees and immigrants are giving information to immigrants as we have a problem regarding a supposed child marriage which recently took place? I have made representations inside and outside the House on this very important issue and would be glad if the Leader would find out whether anything is happening on it.

Ms Leonard

I wish to bring to the attention of the Leader an issue which was raised on the Order of Business yesterday, namely, the problem which has arisen as a result of the rural renewal scheme, particularly as County Donegal has been ignored in this context. Special incentives have been given to Northern Ireland over the past number of years — rightly so because of the troubles — but we are caught between the counties in the South, which are progressing as a result of the economy, and the counties in the North.

I also wish to raise the issue of increased physical attacks on nurses, particularly in emergency rooms at night, a fact which has come to light as a result of recent reports to conferences of nursing organisations. We live in an age where there are charters for patients' rights, but it appears nurses are expected to work for the benefit of the public and take whatever abuse is given them from members of the public. Perhaps the Leader will forward our concerns to the Minister for Health and Children in the context of what procedures will be put in place for nurses and people who work in these circumstances.

Mrs. Ridge

I appreciate the situation has not previously arisen in Ireland, but I ask the Leader to seek further information on the fact that the child I referred to yesterday on the Order of Business was actually sold into a marriage contract. I appreciate that the Minister has perhaps not previously come across such a situation, but it is very important that we get a factual report on what exactly happened. It is a most reprehensible thing to happen.

I appreciate that the Cathaoirleach did not allow Senator Ó Murchú to raise the issue, but I wish to make a suggestion in view of the shortage of blood, namely, that Members of the Houses of the Oireachtas could lead by example. I am willing to give blood, although I know that only 17 per cent of the population would like to take it. It also begs a question in the context of the Treaty of Amsterdam when we have to import Dutch blood——

An Cathaoirleach

The Senator has made her point.

Mr. O'Toole

Do people want politician's blood?

Mr. Norris

Will the Leader arrange for a debate on the situation in Indonesia and East Timor? I am sure colleagues on the Independent benches will fully support motion 8, item 11, tabled by myself and Senator Brendan Ryan. Such a discussion would be relevant as a number of us predicted the disintegration of Indonesia from within, leading to a situation where a small nation such as Ireland might have influence in seeking implementation of decent human rights for the unfortunate people of East Timor. The issue is now more relevant than ever as our predictions come true.

Mr. Bonner

I fully support the call by Senator Leonard, and by Senator McGowan yesterday, in relation to rural renewal schemes. I raised this issue during the debate on the Finance Bill and was assured by the Minister that if the pilot scheme is successful it will be extended to other rural areas. I hope Counties Donegal and Monaghan are included.

Following the decision of the Supreme Court yesterday to reverse an earlier High Court ruling which supported a decision made by an appeals commissioner of the Revenue Commissioners, whereby the children's element of a contributory social welfare payment received by a widow or widower was deemed to be non-taxable, I ask the Leader to bring either the Minister for Social, Community and Family Affairs or the Minister for Finance to the House for a debate on the matter or to introduce legislation. Private superannuation schemes allow the income of children to be separated in such a situation. As the judge and the Revenue Commissioners maintain that very few people are affected, the State should not be significantly affected and I ask that this anomaly be examined.

Ms O'Meara

I add my voice to the comments regarding the Shannon River Council Bill and ask the Leader to circulate the letter referred to, which I understand contains the Minister's response. I have raised this issue from an early stage and am glad to have received the support of colleagues on this side of the House. However, I have not seen a copy of the letter. I have corresponded with the Leader much earlier in the life of the current Seanad but have not been informed of progress. I was not a Member of the previous Seanad, but I think the attitude to this legislation, considering the support given it by Fianna Fáil Members in the last Seanad, is very worrying and a matter of deep concern which adds to public cynicism about how we conduct our business. I urge the Leader to take on board the comments made on this side of the House in relation to the Bill.

Mr. Mooney

Apropos the remarks of Senator O'Meara and the inference that they concern me, I do not know what the problem is. Governments and Oppositions are equally consistent. Senator O'Meara was not a Member of this House when I and others witnessed the Government Chief Whip scurrying around in an effort to ensure he had enough votes to vote down that Bill last year.

Mr. Manning

That is not true; it is a lie.

An Cathaoirleach

Senator Mooney is not in order in pursuing that line on the Order of Business. The Leader of the House will respond to the questions and points raised. If Senator Mooney has a question to the Leader of the House which is relevant to the Order of Business, I ask him to put it to the Leader.

Mr. Mooney

In light of the controversy which seems to have arisen and because I and a number of other Members have taken a personal interest in this issue and supported many elements of the Bill when we spoke on it, I am pleased the Minister has already circulated to those of us who made representations a response which has gone 90 per cent of the way towards addressing most of the issues contained in that legislation.

Mr. Manning

That is the party line, first, middle and last.

Mr. Mooney

I share the disappointment of Senator O'Meara and other colleagues who do not seem to be privy to that information, although I am not responsible for that. I have that information because I corresponded with the Minister on this issue over a period of months on behalf of many of the people who work in Lough Derg and Lough Ree. In order to inform those Senators on the other side of the House who do not seem to be informed, I ask the Leader of the House to consider allocating Government time or Private Members' Time for a debate on this issue so that the Minister can come into the House and clarify his proposals. On the basis of the information I have and the letter I received, part of which was read into the record by the Leader last week, I assure the House that almost all the issues covered in that Bill have been identified and addressed by the Minister.

Mr. Ryan

When does the Leader propose to take Item 8 on the Order Paper which is a motion relating to the Oireachtas (Compellability, Privileges and Immunities of Witnesses) Act, 1997?

In light of recent events, perhaps the Leader could arrange a debate on Turkey a country which sees itself as an aspirant member of the EU. However, in recent months it has dissolved one of the largest political parties in that state and has witnessed the suspicious attempt to assassinate the head of the independent human rights group which is a perpetual focus of state abuse in that country. It needs to be made extremely clear from within the EU that it is not because of its different religion but because of its apparent unwillingness to operate as a democracy that Turkey has problems with the EU. This House can serve a useful purpose by debating the issue and making it explicitly clear to Turkey.

Mr. Chambers

I support the previous speaker's call for a debate on the pros and cons of the Turkish establishment and its view on participation in the EU. It is important that we consider the development of our EU partners in terms of their participation in democracy.

I ask the Leader of the House to make time available for a debate on the important document on rural development. The contents of that document, which the Government is considering implementing, are fundamental to rural development and the wealth of our nation. This House should play its part in supporting the Government's development of that programme.

Mr. Walsh

As regards the bicentenary celebrations of the 1798 rebellion which are taking place in Wexford at present, I ask the Leader to consider how this House could participate in the reconstitution of the Wexford Senate which was the first republican democratic forum to be established in the country. I have some suggestions as to how that might be done.

Mrs. Ridge

The House could sit in Wexford.

Mr. Walsh

Perhaps the Leader could have discussions with Comóradh to see how that could be done. It would be a positive step, particularly given the present political climate which has its roots in the 1798 rebellion when Catholics, Protestants and Dissenters came together to shake off the yoke of bondage.

I ask the Leader to bring to the attention of the Minister for Foreign Affairs the opposition of this House to the nuclear testing in India. It now seems that such testing will be replicated in Pakistan, which is a retrograde step. We, as a neutral country, should voice our strong concerns about it.

I join Senator Ó Murchú in asking the Leader to pursue the issue of restoring confidence in the blood transfusion service. I also ask him to raise with the Minister for Health and Children and the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform the fact that this may require making those who are culpable for this appalling scandal accountable to the public. It is abominable that people have not been prosecuted in the courts.

Mr. Dardis

As regards the issue raised by Senator Ryan about the possible membership of Turkey of the European Union, it would be appropriate for us to debate European enlargement. We had an opportunity to briefly mention it during the passage of the Eighteenth Amendment of the Constitution Bill, 1998, but it merits time of its own. I welcome the extension of the Union and I hope the applications of the central European countries will be processed quickly.

Mr. Ryan

What about democracy?

Mr. Dardis

The Senator should not get excited as I am coming to that point. As regards Turkey in particular, there is a clause in the Amsterdam Treaty which is a statement of the fundamental rights of people and an endorsement of democracy and the rule of law. It would be inconsistent if Turkey became a member under those treaty conditions. That is something we should look at.

Mr. Glynn

I ask the Leader to provide time for a debate on the distribution of video nasties, particularly as they apply to child pornography. It is important that such a debate takes place in view of the fact that this impacts greatly on the welfare of children.

I strongly support Senator Ó Murchú's remarks about the blood transfusion service. As an individual who represents 8 per cent of the population and as a universal donor, I will be glad to offer my services if requested.

Mr. Cassidy

I assure the House that I will circulate the letter from the Minister for the Environment and Local Government on the Shannon River Council Bill to every Member of the House today. I presume it has not arrived by now because we are changing offices.

Senators Manning, O'Toole, Meara and Mooney expressed concern about the Shannon River Council Bill and suggested that it be resubmitted on the Order Paper. I know the Minister will have no difficulty coming into the House if so requested. However, as I pointed out yesterday, 90 per cent of everything in that Bill is included in the pilot scheme. I will ask the Minister to come into the House to clarify the position if Senators so wish.

Senator Manning inquired about tomorrow's statements on nuclear testing in India. I propose that one person from each group makes a statement not exceeding ten minutes.

Senator Costello said the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform was doing nothing about the GRA dispute. That is not true; any fair minded person knows the Minister has met this organisation on several occasions. It is an unfair comment. We hope there will be a successful conclusion to this dispute as soon as possible.

Senators Labhrás Ó Murchú, Walsh, Ridge and Glynn all expressed concern about the shortage of blood supplies in the blood bank at present. Yesterday I called on all people to respond as generously as they have in the past and to come forward and donate again. I fully agree with the sentiments expressed this morning that we will lead the way if required. I would be surprised if people did not come forward over the next few days and give as they have given for decades.

Senator Henry outlined the serious position regarding child abuse. A Garda inquiry into this is currently underway. I would like to wait until there is greater clarity but it is an appalling situation and the allegations being made in the media are a matter which must be addressed urgently. If they are true we will have a debate on them in this House as soon as possible.

Senators Leonard, Bonner and Chambers are concerned about rural renewal schemes and rural development. I informed the House yesterday that the Minister of State at the Department of Agriculture and Food, Deputy Davern, has agreed to come before the House the week after the referendum. Senator Leonard also asked me to pass on her concerns to the Minister for Health and Children about the serious risks to nurses, those on night time duty in particular. I will certainly do this.

Senator Norris called for a debate on Indonesia and East Timor and I will facilitate his request. Senator Bonner raised the High Court decision taken yesterday. The only way this can be addressed is through legislation.

Senators Ryan, Chambers and Dardis are all concerned that there should be a debate on Turkey and its possible entry into the EU. I will facilitate their requests. In response to Senator Ryan concerning item 8, I will arrange a debate on this as soon as possible.

Senator Jim Walsh raised the commemoration of 1798. I assured the House that there would be a debate on this before the end of May. I realise there is an important commemorative event taking place in Wexford on May 31. If the Senator has any further suggestions, I recommend he pass them on to the Cathaoirleach in his capacity of Chairman of the Committee on Procedure and Privileges. We can consider them there. I also note his concerns, which many other Senators expressed yesterday, regarding the nuclear testing in India and have passed them to the Minister for Foreign Affairs. The Child Pornography Bill should address Senator Glynn's concerns about video nasties.

Order of Business agreed to.