Amendments Nos. 1 and 5 and consequential amendments Nos. 2, 3 and 6 are out of order as they are in conflict with the principle of the Bill as read a Second Time.
Firearms (Temporary Provisions) Bill, 1998: Committee and Remaining Stages.
SECTION 1.
Amendments Nos. 1 to 3, inclusive, not moved.
I move amendment No. 4:
In page 3, between lines 36 and 37, to insert the following subsection:
"(4) The Minister shall put in place appropriate procedures to ensure that a firearm in respect of which he has issued a certificate or licence to a person ordinarily resident outside the State is inspected against the details on the certificate or licence which has issued in respect of the said firearm, on the arrival of the licence at any port, airport or point of entry in the State and the same procedure shall apply on the licencee's departure at any port, airport or point of exit in the State.".
This amendment is reasonable. As things stand at the moment there is no requirement on a person with a firearm certificate to have the type of firearm recorded on entry into the country or for a similar check when the person is leaving the country.
The amendment is similar to one which was tabled in the Dáil. The Minister's reply that it could not be accepted because of the administrative difficulties involved was amazing. He said the implementation of the amendment would require the imposition of entry and exit checks at all ports and airports for firearms brought into and out of the country by tourists and that would cause considerable administrative resource difficulties.
I do not know why the Minister gave that response. We are dealing with lethal weapons and the strictest control should be maintained on them when they are imported into and exported from the country. I sincerely hope the Minister's reply will not be a repeat of his answer last night. The number of tourists with arms entering the country is relatively small, although the Minister and his colleague could not agree on it yesterday. One said 4,000 and the other said 3,000. Would the Minister give a response similar to the one he gave last night if the issue was about drugs? It is not just wildlife which is involved. Such weapons are used in crime and the incidence of this is increasing in Ireland, the United Kingdom, the United States and other countries. With the exception of the USA, all countries are moving to impose laws restricting the use of guns.
There was much mirth about Deputy Stagg's remark about shooting game which was out of range. Weapons for shooting game are restricted to a certain range. However, modern technology has now developed guns with a range so huge they are almost like military weapons. The type of ammunition used is also restricted. The distance shot can travel and its power of penetration should be controlled. Deputy Stagg made the point that certain weapons are brought into the country which exceed our standards and are being used. Wildlife normally shot at from 100 metres does not have a chance at 1,000 metres if some of these weapons and ammunition is used. That is the point Deputy Stagg made and that we make here. This amendment is to try to protect against that happening. We want the types of weapon used to be known and to have them properly checked at the ports of entry and exit. Given the relatively small number of tourists who engage in this activity, we are not against this kind of tourism so long as it is properly controlled. I sincerely hope the Minister sees the reason in the amendment and accedes to it.
The Senator must live in a different country. From his description of the weapons used, one would think military aircraft were used in hunting birds. Shotguns are used and their range is approximately 35 to 40 yards, regardless of the cartridge used.
The Senator has obviously not read Jane's book on weaponry.
Acting Chairman
Senator Kiely extended Senator Connor the courtesy of not interrupting him when he was speaking.
Utterly inaccurate statements should not be made. The House should be protected against that.
Acting Chairman
This is Committee Stage so Senator Connor has the right of reply.
I am amazed the Senator's party did not legislate on this issue when the case was brought in 1996 which was when his party was in Government. That was the time to have done it, rather than waiting for this Government to do it, a case of closing the stable door after the horse had bolted.
I disagree with the Senator about the checking of guns brought into the country. A tourist bringing in a gun will have to go through the red channel in customs and declare his firearm. The number is then checked against the licence issued to him by the State. Furthermore, when he is out hunting fowl in the areas prescribed to him, a wildlife ranger can ask him to produce his licence. I have been in the company of people who have had to produce not only their licences but also their game bag and its contents. I have also encountered situations where people were in guest houses and the wildlife ranger came and asked for the freezer to be opened so he could check no illegal birds were inside. The Senator's argument is nonsensical.
I support Senator Connor on this issue because the amendment seems reasonable. When a person arrives in the State with a firearm, there should be some mechanism to check the details supplied on the certificate against the firearm in the person's possession. I am not sure how such licences and certificates are issued. I thought they would have been issued in advance on the understanding that, when they were produced, on the owner entering the country, certificates would only be granted after the weapons were inspected and the inspector was satisfied that it conformed with the details supplied. If there is no such mechanism, there should be one to ensure unauthorised firearms are not brought into the country.
If I went to France and bore with me a weapon, I would be required to give specific details to an inspecting officer as to the calibre of the weapon. I would also have to give similar details as to the strength and force of any ammunition I had with me. Such regulations do not apply in this State. There should be cross-checking between what is declared and what is produced. Any tourist from any EU country can walk through the blue channel with their weapon and apply for his shooting licence when he reaches his destination.
That is not true.
I have been involved in game shooting for many years and none of the many tourists I have met have ever carried anything other than 12 bore guns. This legislation is important because there are thousands of Irish people living abroad who take their holidays here during the shooting season. Are we going to deprive them of a permit or licence to bring their guns into the country? There is a huge number of such people as well as foreigners. One such example is a man I met in Paris recently, whom I first met in my town a few years ago. I discovered at the time that he was a member of the French Senate. He told me he was looking forward to coming back to Ireland with a group of people.
The Opposition has misread this legislation. There are problems and they must be addressed but this is a short-term measure which should be dealt with as quickly as possible.
It should not come as a surprise that I do not propose to accept this amendment. The principal focus of the Bill is deliberately narrow and is concerned with the limitations and restrictions which apply to the consideration of an application for a firearm certificate. It is, as I have outlined again and again, also a temporary measure designed to expire within a period of 12 months. The essence of the Senator's proposal is more permanent and is therefore not suitable for an emergency interim measure such as this. That is not to say that I do not see some sense and substance in the proposal. However, it is a substantive one and needs full consideration. It is something the review group should consider.
The full implementation of the procedures suggested by the Senator would require the imposition of checks on firearms brought into and out of the country by tourist shooters at all ports and airports. There would be considerable administrative and resource difficulties in that alone. It must be remembered also that such persons will have been the subject of consideration when their firearms certificate applications were being processed. At the same time it may be that spot checks of some sort could be of value. This is an idea with some merit but I would want the expert group to give it full consideration. I would particularly want the Garda authorities, who would have to implement such procedures, to examine the proposal. There are implications for manpower arrangements and so on. I am not convinced that it would be necessary and appropriate to establish a statutory basis for the implementation of such procedures, particularly by temporary measures such as this Bill. Even if they are considered to be worthwhile following full consideration, an administrative basis could be sufficient.
Detailed information is submitted at the time of application for a hunting licence and a firearms certificate by a non-resident. Checks are, of course, made at this stage including verification of age, firearm calibre, evidence of firearm authorisation, clearance with the Garda Síochána to ensure that there are no convictions recorded in the State, confirmation of permission to shoot on lands and details of Irish address. In addition, hunting licences or firearms certificates must be shown on request to, among others, a member of the Garda Síochána, a wildlife ranger and the owner of the land. The same procedures which were in place prior to the enactment of this legislation will be in place following its enactment. Details are required on a very detailed form which must be sent to the Department. The Garda Síochána are notified of the details of all firearms certificates issued to non-nationals. They have full details of the location in Ireland of all visitors to the country and of their firearms.
In addition the types of firearms for which certificates are issued are severely restricted. There were times during the debates in both Houses when I felt I was on the film set of the "Guns of Navarone". Wild exaggerations were made. Members were beginning to make absolutely no sense. We must retain a sense of proportion and common sense. Certificates are issued only for shotguns and rifles of a certain calibre. Speakers were beginning to give the impression that one could come into Ireland with a machine gun.
You can effectively. No inspector need ever see it.
That is scaremongering. If a visitor to the country uses an uncertified firearm he or she commits an offence and the firearm can be seized. When applications are being processed checks are made. To give the impression that they are not is nonsensical. These checks have been made under successive Governments and continue to be made. The notion that a foreigner can come to an Irish port with all sorts of weapons and be allowed in is shown to be nonsensical when one considers that the same thing could happen to an Irish national. It is true that one cannot legislate for everything. We will protect the public and wildlife from the use of firearms in so far as we can but it is not humanly possible to legislate for every situation. Firearms legislation in Ireland is probably the most restrictive in Europe. People involved in the business and sport of shooting will readily testify to this fact.
I very much regret that this debate was used in both Houses to scaremonger. There was a deviation from the facts and some Members displayed a wanderlust to fantasyland. I prefer to deal with the facts which I have outlined to the best of my ability.
The Minister's attitude is disappointing. By his own admission, anyone coming into the country and seeking a firearms certificate and a hunting licence simply fills out the form which he has shown us. That is passed to the Department and the Garda Síochána. No official need ever see the weapon. Spot checks may be carried out but I have spoken to gardaí and I know that these spot checks are ineffective. I saw an attempt to convict a foreign tourist in my own constituency. He was charged with a serious offence but he had, of course, absconded.
His guns were confiscated.
I am sorry the Minister became so angry and emotional. The amendment merely seeks a check of weapons being brought into and out of the country. The Minister say that approximately 3,000 tourist shooters enter the country throughout the year. It should not present an enormous administrative or manpower difficulty to put the suggested procedure in place.
Perhaps the Minister could write to the Senators giving them a detailed explanation of the problem. He might give them the figures for firearms prosecutions involving tourists in the last year. When gardaí or wildlife rangers charge someone with an offence they confiscate his guns. A tourist can go home after his holiday but without his guns. We have very strict guidelines for the issue of gun licences and these apply to visitors also. Anyone who applies for a gun licence must state the lands over which he shoots and the gun club of which he is a member. The National Association of Regional Game Councils insists that holders of hunting licences join a registered gun club and are properly insured. I am aware of many tourists who have been prosecuted in the past. Their guns were confiscated and some lost their gun licences for many years.
Any person would be lucky to own one shotgun in his lifetime. A hunter's gun is his pride and joy. He takes care of it and probably leaves it to someone in his will. It is an expensive possession and a person usually buys one that will suit his purposes. If somebody brought his gun into this country he would make sure to bring it home. He would also ensure the gun carried the proper numbers and so forth. The tourists only bring weapons that are suitable for shooting game. Listening to the Senator one would think they were hunting young birds with machine guns.
The Senator read too much about foxes in comics. He takes it too seriously.
When I was in the fox business, the game business flourished because the vermin were kept under control.
I am not saying the proposal has no merit or that it should not be considered. However, it has wide ranging implications. It is a substantive amendment which would have long-term effects in that it would require a permanent change in our procedures. It is not appropriate to the termporary measure before the House to deal with a situation which arose following a High Court decision.
The amendment will be examined by the review group which will be set up immediately. It is extraordinary that Senator Connor continues to say there is a disparity in the number of licences issued when I have explained that the Minister for Arts, Heritage, Gaeltacht and the Islands deals with hunting licences whereas the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform deals with firearm certificates.
I am glad the Minister has resolved his differences with her.
I have explained ad nauseam that the number of firearm certificates issued is usually greater than the number of hunting licences because a firearm certificate must be issued in respect of each gun but each applicant might have more than one gun. That explanation is straightforward and should be accepted. I hope it resolves the matter.
Amendment put and declared lost.
Section 1 agreed to.
SECTION 2.
Acting Chairman
Amendments Nos. 5 and 6 are out of order.
Amendment Nos. 5 and 6 not moved.
Section 2 agreed to.
Section 3 agreed to.
SECTION 4.
I move amendment No. 7:
In page 5, lines 11 to 17, to delete subsections (4) and (5) and substitute the following:
"(4) This Act shall expire after a period of six months after the passing of the Act by the Oireachtas.".
The Minister should not need 12 months before the review group reports. He should set a limit of three months for the review group and towards the end of the next session introduce the new, more comprehensive legislation which he has mentioned. Something must replace this imbecilic measure.
The Bill provides that the Act will expire 12 months after the date of its passing, subject to the possibility of one further extension if considered necessary. Clearly, the Minister is saying he wants two years. That is unacceptable. He has a year from the date of the passing of the Bill to draft new legislation but he will probably inform the Oireachtas next year that it is necessary to extend the remit of this Bill for a further period. He has not said how long a further extension would be but he appears to be seeking two years, which is unacceptable.
The Minister should tell the review group to get to work and produce a report within the next three months. He can then introduce a Bill late in the next session or early in the following session.
I support the amendment. Can the Minister clarify the period for which licences are granted and certificates issued? How long is the hunting season and will the proposed expiry period of six months occur within that season?
I am also anxious to deal with this matter properly. The Minister has promised a review and the Minister for Arts, Heritage, Gaeltacht and the Islands has promised to introduce legislation in the autumn. She will, therefore, have her house in order by then. However, the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform has not indicated when the review will be set up, what are its terms of reference, when it is likely to report and what length of time he will require before producing legislation on the issuing of certificates.
The more I think about this matter, the more I am appalled at the situation outlined during our discussion on the last amendment. There is no inspection process for firearms on arrival at airports and ferry ports——
Acting Chairman
That amendment has been dealt with. The Senator must speak to the amendment before the House.
I am. The Minister said he sees merit in that amendment but he cannot do anything about it until he introduces permanent legislation. He says it is not appropriate to temporary legislation. It is important that the permanent legislation is introduced. In that past 30 years up to 4,000 firearm certificates were issued. This system could have been abused since there was no inspection of weapons at ports by an authorised officer. I hope that will not be the case in the future. It is unacceptable that we have been issuing firearm certificates to people from abroad without having put in place a stringent structure to ensure inspection of those weapons. We are aware of the weapons which are being brought into this country by non-residents. They have caused mayhem.
Acting Chairman
I remind the Senator that this issue was debated fully on the last amendment.
It is the reason I am arguing in support of this amendment. We must deal with this matter at the earliest opportunity. When the permanent legislation is introduced, I hope Members of the Oireachtas will be given proper information about what is happening in this sector of the tourism industry. There should be a proper audit of the people who come here, where they go, what they do there and what type of guns they use. That information should be available to Members of the Oireachtas before they vote on such legislation. The legislation should also be examined in the context of putting in place proper structures with regard to breeding grounds, estates and organisation so the industry can be expanded.
I do not agree with the amendment. The Minister has provided for a definite timescale. The Department will probably have to deal with a great deal of important legislation and the timescale in this Bill is reasonable and acceptable.
I compliment the Minister and his staff for the way they have produced this Bill at very short notice. If this legislation was implemented and tourists were prevented from coming here for one year there would be a huge amount of damage to the tourism industry and the country as a whole.
Senator Costello mentioned what this type of tourist does when on holiday here. Most of them spend one or two days shooting, the rest of their holidays could be spent golfing and sightseeing.
Acting Chairman
The Senator is wandering away from the purpose of the amendment.
I am not in a position to accept this amendment. I mentioned during the Second Stage debate that I intend to establish, as a matter of urgency, an expert review group with a view to bringing forward proposals as a result of the High Court judgment. The group will comprise representatives of the key agencies and will take account of the views of all of the major sectional interests. I cannot anticipate what the group will recommend and how extensive and complex the resulting legislation will be. I hope the group's report will have to be submitted to me and analysed and legislative proposals will have been drawn up and passed by both Houses of the Oireachtas within 12 months. However, that cannot be guaranteed. It is a very tight timeframe for the completion of such a task. Therefore, I have allowed for one extension which cannot be for longer than 12 further months. If at that time the legislation is not in place I will have to introduce a new temporary provisions Bill. That is not a prospect which any of us would look forward to. It would not be possible for this legislation to run indefinitely.
The time limits in the Bill are those which would allow for proper consideration of the issues by the expert group and for legislation to be properly debated in the Oireachtas. The timescale in the amendment is unrealistic and is, therefore, unacceptable.
Senator Costello wondered about the hunting licences and the firearms certificates. Hunting licences are issued for the period until 31 July following the date of issue and that is pursuant to section 29(4) of the Wildlife Act, 1976. The Firearms Act, 1964 provides that firearm certificates are for 12 months duration.
The review group will conduct a root and branch review of all aspects of our firearms legislation. It will consider the broad implications of the High Court judgment on both the legislation and procedures for the granting of firearm certificates to residents and non-residents alike. It will consult a wide range of interested parties, including the National Association of Regional Game Councils as well as tourist, wildlife and conservation interests. It will receive and consider submissions dealing with the legislative and administrative requirements in the area of wildlife shooting and firearms regulations generally. Naturally, it will carefully consider the security and safety implications of any proposed changes in this very sensitive area. The conclusions and recommendations of the review group will form the basis for further legislative developments.
I want those legislative developments to be balanced and to take account of the experts in this area who will, no doubt, bring forward their submissions. No one group can expect to have an advantage over any other group. The best legislation that we can put in place will be put in place following a comprehensive review, great deliberation and indepth consideration.
Amendment put and declared lost.
Section 4 agreed to.
Title agreed to.
Bill reported without amendment, received for final consideration and passed.