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Seanad Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 18 Nov 1998

Vol. 157 No. 4

Health Services: Motion.

I move:

That Seanad Éireann expresses its concern at the crisis in the health services, due to everincreasing waiting lists, exacerbated by hospital ward closures in many health board areas; and calls on the Government to allocate the necessary funding to address this crisis.

I have been seeking a debate on health service issues for many months and I am glad to have the opportunity to speak about those issues this evening. I thank the Minister for coming into the House to participate in the debate.

In June 1997, the Taoiseach and his party went before the electorate with the slogan which read "Putting people before politics". This weekend I notice the theme of the Fianna Fáil Árd Fheis is "Partnership with the people". For many people in this State these slogans ring hollow, given that the Government is failing to ensure the proper provision of one of the most fundamental requirements of a civilised society, a basic health service for all our people.

This is the first time in the history of the State that we have the resources to make a real and substantial difference to the lives of thousands of families waiting for hospital treatment or living with intellectual or physical disability. We need the Government to demonstrate that in this time of great abundance it has the political will to make the necessary investment. The amounts needed may seem large but there is an excellent one-off investment opportunity for the £1 billion the Government has to spare this year. The sums required for health investment are also feasible when compared with the gift of £50 million which the Government gave in its first budget to the wealthiest members of society by halving capital gains tax.

When one takes an overview of our health services and listens to the experience of people throughout the State, it is clear there is a crisis. This manifests itself in waiting lists which represent the frustration, difficulty and ill health of thousands of people. The waiting lists include the mentally handicapped seeking respite in residential care; the physically disabled and those seeking respite residential and day care, as well as personal assistance. Funding is needed for aids and appliances for the tens of thousands of people on ever increasing waiting lists for medical and surgical treatment in our hospitals.

Last week, my Dáil colleagues proposed a motion calling for the allocation of £30 million capital funding and £30 million revenue funding from this year's Exchequer largesse to tackle the critical area of mental handicap and intellectual disability need. Unfortunately, the Government, with the help of new and old Independent allies, just about voted it down, and the Minister for Finance, Deputy McCreevy, put £1 billion in the bank.

The document of the Department of Health and Children entitled Services to Persons with a Mental Handicap/Intellectual Disability: An Assessment of Need 1997-2001 identified almost 27,000 men, women and children with a mental handicap. Of these, one in 20 — or over 1,400 people — are awaiting residential and respite care and over 1,000 people are awaiting day care provision.

The greatest need in this area is for adults, many of whom are being cared for at home by aging or aged parents, many in their 70s and 80s. The average age of those awaiting residential placement is over 31 years, and almost 36 years for those awaiting day places. The tragedy is that, while the parents of these people worry who will care for them when they die, the reality is that their adult children often have a greater chance of being accommodated following the death of parents who have cared for them for years without sufficient help. Recently, Karen Canning, chairperson of the Parents' Future Planning Group at St. Michael's House, said:

The only way to get a residential place for any of our children is for both parents to die. Fear of the future is what we all worry about. We want our children settled in a suitable residential place before we die, not an unsuitable place after.

Perhaps the most hidden area of need is that of people living with a physical disability and their families. As the Irish Wheelchair Association stated:

There are people still working for basic services so that they can move from stressful existence to living with dignity and enjoying some quality of life in their community.

Members and helpers of the Irish Wheelchair Association had to take to the streets of Dublin today to make their voice heard. For them, it has been a case of out of sight, out of mind for too long. I compliment them on their demonstration today. They are now speaking out and seeking, as a modest start, support for resource centres, personal assistance services and aids and appliances. Four thousand people would be helped by a manageable investment of £17 million and I hope the Government can respond to this without delay. Proposals are also with this Government, as they were with the previous Government, from the centres for independent living regarding personal assistants. I hope we will also see progress in this area.

In relation to hospital waiting lists, over 34,000 people are waiting for treatment in our public hospitals and the list is growing by the day. Despite this, the Government is presiding over a series of hospital ward closures which will see almost half of all hospitals throughout the country forced to "decommission" hospital beds in the run-up to Christmas.

It is impossible to explain to an elderly person whose long awaited hip operation has been cancelled at short notice why the bed they were to occupy, or the theatre they were to use, or the highly trained nurse who was to care for them, will be idle in December. This a few weeks after the Minister for Finance, Deputy McCreevy, put £1 billion in the bank. Given the seasonal association with the ward closures it is hard to dispel the name "Scrooge" from coming to mind. I fear that if the Government does not seriously address the fundamental needs of the health service, the clear progress made by my colleague, Deputy Howlin, when Minister will be wasted.

This Government, however, seems to be willing to allow waiting lists to grow again. As I stated, over 34,000 people are awaiting treatment. It was revealed in replies to questions in the Dáil last week that Tullamore General Hospital — an institution with which the Minister and I are very familiar — now has the sixth highest waiting list for any hospital in the country. At the end of June this year, over 1,700 people were on the waiting list at Tullamore. There is a backlog of over 1,000 people for ear, nose and throat surgery. Over half of this group is made up of children. Over 500 people are awaiting orthopaedic treatment. Despite this, I understand two wards are to close next month and all but emergency surgery is to be cancelled. There is no economic reason which can justify waiting lists or ward closures of this kind. As I said, last week the Minister for Finance put £1 billion of taxpayers' money in the bank.

I have spoken to many of the staff at Tullamore General Hospital. Workers at the hospital feel they are being penalised for their efficiency as the target for the numbers of patients treated has been exceeded. It is quite normal for workers in any other sector of the economy to be rewarded for their productivity, but in the case of workers at Tullamore General Hospital, it is planned that over 20 of them will be laid off for Christmas.

I call on the Minister to respond to the cries in Tullamore and other hospitals immediately. This can be done legally and financially. While health boards are obliged to live within budgets, there is nothing to stop the Minister from increasing their budgets by getting Dáil approval for a Supplementary Estimate. I am very confident that our colleagues in the Dáil would provide more money — for example, by means of an additional waiting list initiative — to the Minister, to keep efficient hospitals and their staffs working at full capacity for 12 months of the year. This was done, on my initiative, by the then Government, two years ago in Tullamore to keep the wards open and also in other productive and efficient hospitals around the country.

Today the Department published a Supplementary Estimate which I understand is to be introduced in the Dáil tomorrow. This shows he is proposing to spend an additional £76 million this year. He intends to fund this from an extra income of £70 million, mostly from the health levy, and from an extra £5.5 million which the Minister for Finance will give him. I will have to be excused for reading Estimates when we are not discussing them. From my perusal and research following their publication and prior to this debate, I understand that over £44 million of this Additional Estimate is to increase grants to health boards, for almost every purpose except treating patients on the waiting list and keeping wards open. There are pay increases due under agreements, superannuation costs, pilot projects for children at risk, year 2000 compliance costs and others, such as the demand led drug related schemes.

I appeal to the Minister to consider the Estimate before it goes to the Dáil tomorrow and try to address this great crisis. There is no legal problem for the Minister in addressing the crisis. There is no financial problem as the Supplementary Estimate proves. It is a question of recognising and admitting there is a problem and of having the political will to tackle it. Should he take that course of action I am sure he will have the support of all parties in both Houses.

I am delighted to second this important motion. I am disappointed the Government decided to amend it. It is carefully worded and I thought everybody would agree that Seanad Éireann expresses its concern at the crisis in the health services and seeks extra funding. Clearly the Minister will state that he will allocate extra funding of £70 million in the Supplementary Estimate as my colleague, Senator Gallagher, mentioned. I would like to see him elaborate on how that will ease the crisis in relation to waiting lists, whether they concern hospitals or mental or physical disability.

There is a crisis. Nobody can deny that, it is common knowledge. It is not necessary to set up an expert committee or engage a firm of consultants to prove it. We all know health is wealth and without health, people are much poorer. The country is complaining that the waiting lists have got out of hand. Everybody has a relative or neighbour waiting to get into a hospital or a ward, or for surgery or some kind of treatment. It is going from bad to worse so it boggles the mind how the Minister could defend the closure of wards in the middle of this crisis. How could he ask us, in section 3 of the amendment, to endorse his ongoing strategy of dealing with waiting lists and times in a structured, co-ordinated and multi-disciplinary manner involving all components of the health care system? That is simply not the case. There is no co-ordinated, coherent approach to dealing with waiting lists. Senator Gallagher mentioned a figure of 34,000, almost half of whom are in the Eastern Health Board area. The Mater Hospital has more than 3,000 people on the waiting list and Temple Street children's hospital has more than 1,000. If we look at the breakdown of that, almost half of the cases in the Mater Hospital relate to cardiac surgery or cardiology and two-thirds of the procedures awaited in Temple Street children's hospital relate to ear, nose and throat problems. Clearly there is a backlog in certain areas. Why is the backlog bigger in certain areas if the Minister has a co-ordinated multi-disciplinary strategy for dealing with this problem? What does the Minister mean by a co-ordinated strategy?

The amendment reads that the Minister has undertaken the first ever formal analysis of the underlying causes of waiting lists. I understand that the Minister commissioned a report which has been sitting on the shelf since last August and he is not prepared to divulge its contents or share them with us. That is no way to go about putting together a co-ordinated policy and undertaking a formal analysis. The Minister should publish the report. What does the Minister intend to do with the report he commissioned? If he does not publish the report it makes a mockery of an ongoing strategy and action plan.

There is a crisis in the health service which the Ministers for Health and Children and Finance have the means to address. Unquestionably resources exist to deal with this crisis at present given that the Minister for Finance can contribute £1 billion, an enormous amount of money, towards the national debt. Health, a critical issue in people's lives, is in serious crisis at present. It seems the Minister should be fighting his corner at the Cabinet table to ensure he receives adequate resources to eliminate hospital waiting lists. When Deputy Howlin was Minister for Health he dramatically reduced the waiting lists by way of a structured plan. That fact is on the record. If this can be achieved under one Minister why can it not be achieved under another Minister, particularly as there is no shortage of funds or resources?

A Supplementary Estimate of £70 million was mentioned. I do not recollect a Supplementary Estimate of that magnitude for a long time. That Supplementary Estimate should be specifically geared towards addressing hospital waiting lists and other waiting lists such as people in wheelchairs and people with mental and physical disabilities who are imprisoned in one sense or another and not free and independent citizens. Senator Gallagher said that people in wheelchairs are looking for a mere £17 million so that they can go about their lives in an independent fashion.

I call on the Minister to accept the thrust of the motion rather than the disappointing amendment that has been tabled. The motion requires the matter to be dealt with. It does not make outrageous statements or condemnations. It states that there is a crisis and that the crisis is not being addressed at present. The resources exist to deal with the problem and the Minister should exercise his authority in this regard and demand the resources to improve the lives of vulnerable people.

I move amendment No. 1:

To delete all words after "That" and substitute the following:

"Seanad Éireann

(1) commends the Minister for Health and Children for allocating £12 million in 1998 to deal with waiting lists, which represents a fifty per cent increase in the sum allocated by the previous Government in 1997, as an important initial step towards implementing a comprehensive programme to address the issue;

(2) notes that the Minister for Health and Children has undertaken the first ever formal analysis of the underlying causes of waiting lists and waiting times which enables a comprehensive overview of the needs of the health-care system, to be undertaken, towards addressing the issue in the longer term, and

(3) endorses his on-going strategy of dealing with waiting lists and waiting times in a structured, co-ordinated and multi-disciplinary manner, involving all components of the health care system".

I welcome the Minister to the House to deal with this motion in Private Members' time. I commend him on the initiatives he has taken since becoming Minister for Health and Children to reduce waiting lists and to fight off the powerful interests in medicine and the health care system in order that those at the bottom of the pile will get their fair share. I am referring to people with disabilities and people in the wheelchair association who, as Senator Costello said, are imprisoned as a result of their disabilities. These people tend to be forgotten in the medical world. They do not appear on the 6 o'clock or 9 o'clock news, only high powered consultants fighting their corner from a high tech theatre in a very prominent hospital appear on the news.

Things have changed a lot since I began in medicine. At that time the only surgery carried out was emergency surgery; there was very little elective surgery. Since then hip operations, knee operations, cataract operations and so on are carried out. There were very few investigations carried out apart from blood tests and chest X-rays. Now gastroscopies, MRI scans, ultra sound scans and so on are carried out. All these procedures require time, money and very expert skills and staff. If I needed a bed in a hospital for a patient in my day I just had to ring a consultant, discuss the case with him and the patient would be admitted. Now sick patients must go through casualty where they are screened. This is clogging up the accident and emergency services. One can wait on a trolley for up to 12 hours or more. We are victims of our own success in medical research and in the delivery of medical services to the people.

A matter that is never alluded to is the growth in malpractice litigation. Standards in medicine are not being set by the Royal College of Surgeons or teaching bodies but in the Four Courts every day of the week. This has also contributed to the backlog. Doctors now have an extra duty of accountability when dealing with patients.

Bord na nOspidéil and the Local Appointments Commission have an indirect part to play in dealing with the waiting list problem. To put it bluntly, there is no point appointing an ear, nose and throat surgeon whose expertise is in airways problems. These are important but relatively rare problems which can take many hours to deal with.

We need a surgeon with expertise in tonsillectomies, for which the waiting lists are longer. Bord na nOspidéil and the Local Appointments Commission should match the appointee to the requirements of the job rather than just looking at applicants'curricula vitae. Brilliant applicants who have studied abroad and have expertise in recondite and rare medical problems and have published a large amount of work tend to get the jobs but they are often not suited to the workload or service requirements of the job.

I have noticed from my own experience that when one is referring a public patient to a consultant one sends in the letter first. The consultant then reads the letter and makes an appointment according to his or her assessment of the urgency of the letter. Most GPs' letters are a scribbled few lines as they do not have the time to write a long letter delineating every issue regarding the patient's ailments. Holding walk-in screening clinics once a month where the consultant, in consultation with the patient, decided the urgency of the case, would help to reduce waiting lists.

The Opposition is blaming the Government for the waiting list controversy. However, this dates back much further than that. There have been Ministers for Health of every political hue in the past five years. When Deputy Howlin was Minister for Health he said:

Bed closures are a feature of hospital services in every country. Consultants, doctors and nurses take holidays. Wards have to be closed down to be cleaned, to be painted, to be redecorated and to be upgraded.

In 1996 the Rainbow Coalition introduced the accountability legislation under which this Government, and all future Governments, will operate, to manage the activity levels and budgets supporting those levels. In December 1997 the health boards got their requested budgets — the word is they got what they requested plus a little extra — and they submitted the service plan in January.

When Deputy Noonan was Minister for Health he said:

There is no point in devolving responsibility if people are not prepared to take responsibility when things go wrong. One cannot go out from Hawkins House in the middle of the night and run the hospitals. Management in the hospitals and the health boards will have to put their own procedures in place to improve the position.

The position has not changed greatly since then. I do not think the Minister has the power to change the situation, even if he wanted to, for the simple reason that health services take up an enormous amount of our gross national product.

Are we to allow this or any other Minister to be bullied by the high powered and vested interests in the medical services, to the detriment of people who do not have a voice to speak for them? I am glad the Labour Senator mentioned those en passant. We must bring the people at the bottom of the list higher up in the health services — they should get their fair share of what is available.

Fine Gael supports the motion tabled by the Labour Party expressing its concern at this crisis, which was brought home to us today when people in wheelchairs, who were accompanied by their carers and support groups, demonstrated outside the gates of Leinster House. They had to travel to Dublin to emphasise this crisis. Their carers said they required a great deal of induction and counselling to make them feel confident enough to come out of their homes today and express their intense concern about their problem.

There is not a Senator here who would not wish that they would get the funding of £17.16 million they require to assist them to live very basic and ordinary lives. Their budget campaign brochure states "Prisoners at home" and "No tiger economy for us". Their placards and calls to us today would bring tears to your eyes. They made the journey to Leinster House and I hope the Minister will prioritise them.

Whenever health is discussed on local radio hundreds of people call the station and the switchboards are jammed with cries from the heart about children, the elderly and people with physical and mental disabilities. There is a cry from ordinary citizens throughout the country to prioritise health, with which no Member would disagree.

I wish to concentrate on the Mid-Western Health Board area. There are 2,266 people on waiting lists in the region compared with 1,971 last December. The £614,000 provided by the Minister to the health board to tackle the waiting lists dealt with 800 people — if those 800 had to be added to the current waiting list the figure would be in the region of 3,000. However, despite that initiative, there are increased numbers on the waiting list. It is like Third World poverty — the levels gallop ahead despite intervention.

Seventy four people have been waiting over 12 months for hip replacements and 34 people waiting over 12 months for knee replacements. The figure which upsets me most is the number waiting for cataract operations, most of whom are elderly and would love to read a newspaper, which is the last bit of independence they have. There are 278 people in the region waiting over 12 months for a cataract operation, which is considered a very minor operation. Therefore, despite the waiting list initiative, there has been a 13 per cent increase in waiting lists. I will be watching the figures for December 1998 with interest but I feel they will still be negative.

I am also concerned that 245 people have been waiting over 12 months for other orthopaedic procedures. I am sure other Senators could give similar figures for their health board regions. I was surprised that 229 women have been waiting over 12 months for gynaecological procedures. As a woman, I feel very strongly that that is a hidden area.

Some 84 per cent of admissions in the mid-western region are emergencies and only 16 per cent are discretionary admissions. People are admitted for operations such as tonsillectomies or gynaecological procedures — which some people might regard as minor — which are sometimes postponed. Everyone has the shivers before they go to hospital and great psychological damage is done to people whose procedures are cancelled on the morning they are scheduled to take place. Such people have fasted from the night before but are then eliminated from the elective area. I know emergencies take precedence but those decisions must be made on a day-to-day basis in our hospitals. These are very serious issues.

Thankfully, no wards have been closed in Limerick Regional Hospital because it prioritised its funding. Moreover, within the cancer strategy area, the hospital does not have a consultant or nurses available. If that area were to be dealt with, some ward closures would doubtless occur. It is necessary that 15 to 20 beds be available at weekends for emergencies. We cannot look into a crystal ball to determine whether such emergencies will occur but closures from Friday to Sunday are quite disruptive for staff and patients alike.

The figures in the Irish Hospital Consultants Association's budget submission show that in 1987, 14, 800 hospital beds were available; the figure has now dropped to 11,800 in spite of the fact that we now have a bigger elderly population. References are made in the submission to crises due to inadequate financing and lack of investment in areas related to child care, disability and care of the elderly. The IHCA specifies that the maximum times medically acceptable for treatment of patients on waiting lists should be set at six months for a child and 12 months for an adult, referring to the period from first referral to the consultant until the conclusion of the required procedures. Obviously, that is not the case within the Mid-Western Health Board area.

The Minister has the support of everyone in this House to return to the Cabinet table with the message that health comes first. All the money in the world will not achieve anything if our health services cannot meet need. I know the Minister cannot achieve this immediately but priority areas must be addressed. I appeal to him to fight for the extra funding required to ensure we will not have a crisis on our hands at the end of the year.

I welcome the opportunity to come into the House to debate the issues raised in the motion and the amendment tabled by the Government. It is time we had an intelligent debate on health. Emotive pleas and the painting of a monopoly of virtue on one side of the House as a cogent argument for more action on the health services, without any systematic analysis of the problems in this dynamic sector, does not add to the debate and only becomes an exercise in futility.

I am happy to have the opportunity to outline my strategy in the health area and to identify what needs to be done. The slightest perusal of the development of the health services in this country in the past couple of decades, quite apart from the 50 years since the Department was founded, reveals that tremendous strides have been made in the country's health services. Successive Governments can take credit for various aspects of those developments. I do not intend engaging in a petty political battle this evening as that would not serve anyone well.

I want to address the issue of waiting lists. An initiative was introduced in 1993 under the Fianna Fáil/Labour Government which saw £20 million being invested in the health services in the first year of the Programme for Government and £10 million in the second. There was a change of Government in 1995 and resources were reduced. Waiting lists increased by one-third under the Rainbow Coalition; the last amount allocated to the waiting list initiative by the Rainbow Government was £8 million in an election year in 1997. The money did not become available until the month of August and the waiting lists continued to increase. No review was carried out nor was there any management of the system to see what the problems were and what could be done about them.

Arising from the review I undertook during my first year in office, I was not satisfied that the matter was simply a resource issue. However, in the budget Estimates for 1998, I increased funding for the waiting list initiative by 50 per cent up to £12 million. Those are the facts. A further 14,000 people received procedures on the public patients' waiting lists. There are no private patient waiting lists. If people have money, they will gain access to surgical procedures without too much difficulty. It is time we started calling a spade a spade. I want to square a deal for public patients but many people involved in the health sector will have to play their part in making that happen. I want to engage in a partnership approach. I recognise the matter cannot be solved within the acute hospital system alone but it is a fact that no private patient has to wait as long as a public one. Some 36,000 public patients are awaiting procedures; 42 per cent of those have been waiting more than 12 months.

There is a spectrum of pain between some cosmetic operation which has to be carried out to remove a scar from a cheekbone and a life threatening operation for a public patient awaiting a cardiac procedure. The first thing I did on taking office was to identify life threatening problems. In regard to cardiac services for public patients, I engaged in a process to analyse the situation and increased capacity in St. James's Hospital and University College Hospital, Galway. Waiting lists are reducing as a result. In regard to paediatric waiting lists, the list in Our Lady's Hospital for Sick Children in Crumlin, which did not receive any investment for many years, has reduced by almost 40 per cent. Waiting lists for adult cardiac by-passes have reduced by 200 and currently stand at approximately 1,000. We have further to go but apart from providing resources to deal with the immediate problems, we must identify where capacity limits exist and create greater capacity where necessary.

In regard to the health strategy implementation and the provision of regional self-sufficiency, no proposal was received to provide cardiac by-pass services for the west until I made a political decision to ensure that the capital development proceeded and that cardiac surgery was available to people in the west in a location near to them.

We are now seeking to replicate initiatives undertaken in the cardiac area in seven cardiac specialties whereby 70 per cent of the waiting list will be identified. In regard to the extra resources I intend applying when I announce a waiting list initiative when the Government has concluded its deliberations, I am going to draft a memorandum to the Government seeking to carry out the recommendations of the review group to deal with the short, medium and long-term problems associated with waiting lists. We will insist on a structured response being received from everyone in the system. The review group has certainly identified a big problem in regard to inappropriate placement in public hospitals with up to 150,000 bed days per year being technically wasted because people are in hospital when they should be receiving different type of care elsewhere, be it post-operative, recuperative or whatever. We must deal with resource issues on the capital side to provide for alternative accommodation other than hospital beds and we must educate the public that hospitals are simply part of a continuum of care in our health services. They are not places to which one goes to prepare for operations, have operations and undergo post-operative care.

There is a need to increase throughput in our hospitals. The day care situation has quadrupled in the past four or five years. When one considers the total in-patient activity of 535,000 in-patient cases per year and 250,000 day cases, it puts the 36,000 people awaiting individual procedures in context; they represent approximately 4 per cent of total activity. That is higher than we would like but we must endeavour to reduce waiting times, not lists. The individual person does not care whether he or she is 10,000th or 34,000th on the list — he or she wants to know how long it will take before the procedure can be done. The notion of lists is a simplistic one which does not deal with the issue.

As a result of the increased resources, the level of those waiting beyond 12 months, which is the target we set ourselves for public patients, is now at 42 per cent. This figure has only reduced by 1 per cent this year but, importantly, it has stopped rising.

One issue is putting greater resources into the services but the other is to provide the capital requirements in hospitals to deal with the throughput needed to bring down the lists. In 1993 when we started because of the changes and cutbacks that occurred in the late 1980s there was surplus capacity in the system which could tackle the problem fairly immediately and there were dramatic improvements in the first year.

Those who propose this motion were in Government — a so-called left wing Government with a left wing Minister for Finance. He said to me in the Dáil last week that this is the first time that action can be taken for the disabled and those with mental handicap. He was in charge of three Book of Estimates totalling conservatively £40 billion of public expenditure and he did nothing about these matters.

Illogical arguments were put forward in the other House and were made this evening by Senator Gallagher questioning why, if capital gains tax deductions can be made, something cannot be done for public patients. The fact is that the reduction in rates of capital gains tax has brought a greater tax take so that there is more money available as a result of the capital gains that have emerged from property dealings and transactions on the stock markets.

People would like to suggest an ideological position in which capital gains tax would be pitched at 90 per cent and that would prove support for the "small people". The fact that there would be no transactions and no revenue seems irrelevant. It is the same ideological issue they put forward with the residential property tax and it was removed when they realised the ideological nonsense.

Let us present the left wing persuasion on Government with what it did about bringing up the economic cost of private patients using public beds in hospitals. What happened from 1995 to 1997? There was no increase on private patients using public beds in that period although public hospital costs were going up by 13 per cent. Here was a socially progressive Government which was prepared to subsidise private patients in public hospitals. Nothing happened under the Rainbow Coalition Government on this issue.

I increased costs to them by 9 per cent last year and I announce today that I will increase them again by 9 per cent in 1 January next because there is still a cross subsidy in favour of private patients using public hospital beds. The total income from private patients in this regard is £63 million, the tax rebate on the tax allowance for VHI premiums is £64 million and the amount from reimbursed medical expenses is £20 million. The taxpayer is thus down £20 million.

Some Members claim that they want to cry loudly for the public patients, yet when in office they did nothing for them. They reduced the waiting list initiative which was particularly geared to public patients yet this was the socially progressive Government we had from 1995-7. Its rhetoric was great.

It did nothing for those with mental handicap. I have spent £25 million on mental handicap in my first 12 months in office which is double that which my predecessor spent in an election year, 1997. In addition, for the first time, there will be £30 million four year capital programme for mental handicap. We cannot deal with the problems Senator Gallagher raises to the extent that he wants more residential care, more respite care and more day care places unless we build the places. Is he succumbing to the trend of putting more money into the system because of an editorial which does not see the full picture and blithely criticises the Government? That is not a solution.

Before we can put in the revenue we must put in the capital. When the capital is in place there are additional revenue implications year on year as a result of that capital investment. I have done a deal with the Minister for Finance, for which I make no apologies, because we have an asset base in the health system of £4.5 billion. We have not had a public capital programme worth the name. In 1997, £103 million was provided on a capital base of £4.5 billion — that would not be regarded as a maintenance budget let alone a capital budget. There is a refusal by some to stand up and be counted on this issue.

I have got gross non-capital expenditure this year for the first time ever over the £3 billion mark. The budget for health has increased by 100 per cent in five years. However, the capital programme was not developing at the same rate. As a result we need to reinvest in the infrastructure. There was never even an equipment grant. There were operating beds in hospitals which had not been changed for 30 years.

I am indicating to the health boards and voluntary hospitals that they must be disciplined in relation to their revenue allocations because I am getting an expanded capital programme in return for that. The Supplementary Estimate I am providing relates to technical adjustments with regard to demand led schemes, PRSI, superannuation, etc. That is the deal and I am prepared to stand over it. I am not prepared to have the hospital system, which takes up over 52 per cent of total resources and where the vested interests preside, question whether it should have to stick to a budget.

One can always make an argument for more money, there was never a Health Estimate under which one could not argue for more money. However, we must agree on the theoretical point that whatever the financial resources they are finite year on year, that we have a finite budget. If 52 per cent of the budget is going to the hospitals and they maintain that they will not be subject to the same budgetary disciplines as the community based services, mental handicap services and the physically disabled services, who pays? If the hospitals seek more money because they have exceeded their budgets, who pays? If we accept that that the sum is finite those who pay are the mentally handicapped, the physically disabled, the poor and those relying on the public health nurses. Do not let anyone suggest otherwise.

Now that we have a statutory framework, sponsored by the Government led by Deputy John Bruton and supported by me, it is time to tell the hospitals that they will get their budget at the beginning of the year. I brought in a change in relation to the waiting list initiative and they get the increased waiting list initiative at the beginning of the year. They know exactly where they stand on 1 January because they do not get their estimates in mid-March. However, they may not come back in October and November and play the game that has been played for years, saying on an emotional basis that they need more money because they have exceeded their budgets. We must try to plan our health services based on service plans agreed at the beginning of the year and based on the allocations that have been given.

Let nobody suggest we are not putting more money into the health services. With the support of my colleagues in Government I am able to get far more money than any other Department working off a higher base. The bottom line is whether we allow one part of the health sector to dictate to everybody else. Will it decide what the level of progress is for everybody else? It is time to stand up and be counted.

I want a squarer deal for the public patient and I will insist on going forward with a proposal which will not address the acute hospitals sector alone. We need more beds for the elderly and more community nursing units. That will only come from increased capital programme money. It cannot and could not be done with a £103 million capital allocation. However, a sum of £147 million this year, £155 million for the coming year and £165 million for the following year — from the three year budget profile next year it will be seen what I have agreed for 2001 — will provide the wherewithal to address the structural problems.

It is clear that pumping more revenue into the system without renovating the system will not solve the health sector's problems. The experience of the last five years has shown this to be so. If we want a square deal for public patients we need more money in the waiting lists initiative and I will do that. I will insist on managing the waiting lists. I will respect clinicians' autonomy in determining when people are called for operations but medical secretaries alone will not decide who is on waiting lists. We will have to manage waiting lists and ensure people who are waiting longer than necessary are called for appointments far more quickly. The only way to do this is to manage from the centre while ensuring those who show efficiency and throughputs and are prepared to do the extra work to give public patients a square deal are rewarded. This is my formula for dealing with the problem and what I am arguing for at Government. When the Government undertakes its final deliberations I am confident we will return with a structured approach to the problem and that we will replicate the success we have seen in cardiac services right across the seven target specialities which represent 70 per cent of waiting lists.

I am not here to say everything is rosy in the garden. However, neither am I here to listen to the same old arguments and emotive pleas which are not addressing or answering the problem. The only way to address the problem is to objectively stand back and analyse where there are deficiencies. Within months of becoming Minister for Health and Children I came to the conclusion that I cannot solve the problems in the health sector unless I get capital investment into the sector. We are already seeing the benefits.

Senator Gallagher spoke of the problems in Tullamore General Hospital which has a regional specialty for orthopaedics and ENT. There are long waiting lists because we do not have the capacity or perhaps adequate personnel to get the necessary throughput. Also, we have not invested the resources into the public patient waiting lists initiative to do the job. It is a multi-pronged process and one of the ways we will improve the health service in the midlands is by continuing what we have been doing in terms of capital development.

We commissioned phase 2A in Mullingar General Hospital which was opened last week and ensured a paediatric unit for Portlaoise General Hospital worthy of the name given that it is responsible for maternity services in Laois-Offaly. We will bring forward a capital development programme for Tullamore General Hospital of which we will all be proud. We have done this in the Mercy hospital and my predecessor did it in Limerick Regional Hospital.

I visited Galway city and could not believe that we did not have the capacity to put in place capital investment for a hospital worthy of the city. I put forward a proposal for a £120 million capital investment programme, beginning with an investment of £60 million. In the meantime there will be inconveniences and problems and every other hospital and health board is prepared to submit themselves to the budgetary disciplines on the basis that I am doubling capital investment for the elderly and am for the first time ever providing a budget for mental handicap and respite and residential places. I doubled the allocation for the physically disabled. I remember representatives of the Independent Centre for Living coming to meet me and I cleared their deficit because they were at their wits end, as Senator Gallagher is aware, due to the problems which were arising. We provided £4 million for aids and appliances thereby helping 11,000 families. The money went towards hearing aids, people in the Irish Wheelchair Association and many other disability groups. Much can be done with small amounts of money. Not all expenditure has to be in the hi-tech area. People come to me looking for millions of pounds, but should this be to the exclusion of other groups which are not quite so organised or vehement and which are too busy trying to deal with their day to day family problems? I am not prepared, and I do not care what it costs me, to allow that continue.

The accountability legislation will only be effective if it works in its first year. Having sponsored the legislation we cannot now decide to forget about it and do something else this year. There are problems, but as a result of the good financial management of the Government, we have moneys prepared for 1999 which will bring service improvements totalling £154 million including, but not exclusively, improvements for hospitals.

Seventy per cent of my budget is pay related, including pension payments. This means that £200 million from the opening Estimate of £354 million for next year, an 11.3 per cent increase on this year on, is pay related. It is always a case of how much tar one can get on the road.

I wish to make it very clear that temporary bed closures are a symptom of the problem. We are losing 90,000 bed days as part of trying to manage a system which involves ward refurbishment, reorganisation in hospitals and bringing on stream new developments in hospital services. However, it represents just 2.5 per cent of the total bed complement in the hospital system. This is the equivalent of 200 beds temporarily closed per month out of a total complement of 12,600. We should put the issues in perspective and have an intelligent debate. Of course there is room for improvement, but I am not prepared to accept the historical deficits of the past when we were not prepared to renew our infrastructure. If the health system was a house it would have crumbled long ago because we did not invest, replenish or — to develop the metaphor — provide the necessary extensions.

Last December I told the health boards to manage their budgets, that the Oireachtas had given them statutory responsibility to do so. I also told them that where overruns emerged they had statutory responsibility to bring forward proposals to reduce them and to come in on budget at the end of the year. Is anybody seriously suggesting we can plan a future improved health service without reference or adherence to budgets? It is impossible and cannot be done. The ad hoc system has destroyed our attempts to build incrementally, year on year, a better health system and, more importantly, a better deal for public patients.

Coming from one of the hi-tech hospitals the first thing I wish to say to the Minister and Senator Fitzpatrick is that it is not consultants who make waiting lists. All patients must be referred to consultants by general practictioners. Therefore, unless GPs are referring patients for reasons which are totally unnecessary, I am sure the Minister will agree there must be something wrong with those on waiting lists. Of course the waiting time is important. The other day I was shown a letter by a patient who had been waiting five and a half years to go to hospital. These are not imaginary points I am raising. While my consultant colleagues may be very disillusioned, and while I have never seen the morale of nurses at such a low level, I think it was unworthy of the Minister to say medical secretaries alone will not decide who will be called from waiting lists, as though they have some sort of influence, are being got at and pick people from waiting lists. I have seen young women reduced to tears when phoning patients to tell them elective lists have been put off again and again and again.

It was not meant in that way.

What way was it meant?

We have to manage waiting lists.

These girls do not go out and decide whose names will be taken off the list. The hospital administration tells them to cancel the list. In the light of such comments I do not think the Minister can possibly understand the stress front line staff are under. Theirs is one of the worst jobs.

I did not suggest otherwise.

We spend 7 per cent of GNP on health, one of the lowest percentages in Europe. I know it is possible to spend infinite amounts of money on health and still have demand. However, when the general public is told that economically we are in an amazing position, it is very hard for them to understand such waiting lists and waiting times. It is fine if the Minister tells the general public that we are now operating on managed health care and that financial and not medical decisions are what will be taken into account in the context of when people will get into hospital. However, I think it very important that the Minister does not expect his front-line staff to say that when they are more than willing to do the work. How can a system flourish when the people who have to do the work are so demoralised? I want to tell Senator Fitzpatrick that I think this spills over into general practice. In that regard I wish to quote from a north side doctor who has written in this week's Medical Weekly. He gives two excellent examples of the problems GPs are encountering. He says he normally refers patients to the Mater hospital and that:

It is a top class hospital, where the patient counts and the extra mile is never a problem. Two incidents in the last three months give cause for concern, however. The first was where a 50 year old patient of mine was diagnosed with lung cancer following a chest X-ray and subsequent CT scan. I rang the respiratory team to request that he be seen in the next clinic with a view to admission for bronchoscopy and further treatment — just as Senator Fitzpatrick and I remember.

Normally, a request like this would be granted, no questions asked. Imagine my surprise when I was told by the team that the beds had been taken away from them. In fact things were so bad that the consultant was considering cancelling his inpatient service. In other words, total emasculation and paralysis of his work. My patient was eventually admitted via accident and emergency under care of the team on call for onward transfer to the respiratory service. That was a great waste of money. Not the way to treat a man whom you have just told has cancer. The casualty department was the last place he needed to go in his condition.

About a month ago the second incident occurred. Firstly, the direct access gastroscopy service went from a waiting list of three to four weeks to four months. Secondly, a routing old outpatient deferral to gastroenterology was cancelled. A note was kindly sent to the patient and myself. Guess what?

Yes, the gastroenterology beds were completely closed. The consultant concerned, correctly in my view, had decided to stop all out-patient clinics until he can work properly and effectively once again. The question I want to ask is, how many gastric and colonic cancers will be left undiagnosed by this inspired piece of hospital management?

The Mater Hospital is within budget, as every hospital is told to be, but at what cost to patients? Those are two serious cases, and the case of colonic cancer could possibly be considered an incurable case. Also, the Mater is not using its second CAT scanner and has not done so since June. That machine cost over £500,000. The Mater is scanning its own patients but nobody else's. Is that an efficient use of the health service and radiographers?

I did my own bit towards helping the health service this year. When the Adelaide transferred to Tallaght I did not go with it because I had taken enough. Was I not right when one hears what is going in Tallaght, which I gather is barely functioning? The two staff nurses who worked with me did not go either; we could not take any more. We had worked extraordinarily hard. I have found that general practitioners who refer to me do not do so unnecessarily. If they say a person needs to be seen one tries to fit them in, and one despairs when one is not in a position to help patients. So I saved the health service money by not going to Tallaght.

It is the same all over the country. Beaumont is saving money with this method also, though it is a funny saving. Senator Leonard — I was going to call her nurse Leonard — will understand that theatre lists have become so difficult to deal with that hospitals are desperately short of theatre nurses. Lists are being cancelled on a rotation basis so consultants and patients suffer equally because of the shortage of theatre nurses. Senator Leonard will also understand that the stress on those nurses is increasing all the time so more of them are leaving, making it more difficult to maintain the lists already in place. One has anaesthetists and surgeons standing and patients not being operated on because there are not sufficient theatre staff. If that is efficient working of the health service that is fine by me.

There are also ward closures and terrible overcrowding in those wards that are open. People are shoved in on casualty trolleys. The Minister is desperately short of nurses — there is a shortage of 3,000 — and we are short of the non-EU doctors who ran the service outside the Pale, so the Minister set up a manpower committee. I have objected to this committee publicly, as the Minister will be aware.

It certainly was a manpower committee. I could not believe the photograph in the newspapers; it was made up of 14 men, though 60 to 70 per cent of the output of most of our medical schools are women. I suggested that even what I described as token women would have been of use to determine the needs of women in the medical profession, but the Department decided against it. If the various nominating bodies had not nominated some women, surely the Department should have thought this was worthwhile.

People are not kept in hospitals unnecessarily. I saw a man the other night vomiting before he left hospital. I said surely he could be kept in overnight, but I was told that there was no bed for him. Is that the kind of service we are reduced to? Those working in this service are doing the best they can, but it is the demoralising. The service is at an all time low.

I am glad we are debating this matter, because anyone in touch with reality is deeply troubled by the inadequacies in the delivery of our health services. However, the health budget has increased by 100 per cent in the last five years, but no sane person would say that the level of service has increased accordingly. In many sectors one could not say there has been even a 40 per cent improvement.

The key question is whether throwing more money at the service will cure our ills. If it would, I would be the first to plead for more money, but getting more money will not in itself solve the deep rooted problems in the health service. It will take a radical change in a number of areas to get the kind of health service we could say we are proud of.

The waiting lists for public patients is a scandal and has been for many years. It has improved appreciably, but it is a grave worry to everybody, and something must be done about it. I am not sure that the health service is well served by the present system, where surgeons can take a certain number of private patients and then a certain number of public patients to fill the remaining time. The time has come to debate whether it would be a good idea to get a designated number of surgeons who would spend all their time treating public patients for a given number of years and who would be paid accordingly. That might be one way to lessen the difference that has bedevilled our health services, where one can have an operation if one is funding oneself but one must wait for years if one is a public patient. That causes immense stress to patients and their families, and more of the same is not good enough. We must look for a way to change that system radically, and my suggestion is worth considering. I am sorry the Minister is not here as I would like him to respond to it. We cannot continue nibbling around the edges; that is not good enough. Most of us know the pain and stress caused to those on the public waiting lists.

We should also put more money into preventative medicine, particularly breast cancer which besets many women. More resources should be put into projects where disease can be detected, diagnosed and treated at an early stage. We have a health programme as opposed to a sickness programme and our thinking must be revised in that direction.

The Minister referred to educating the public and argued that people sometimes stay in hospital long after they need to and must be educated out of that practice. He is right but against that I am aware of cases of people who were allowed home from hospital in poor condition and did not have sufficient care to follow through on the hospital treatment.

There is also a need to educate health insurance companies. I had surgery last spring and was lucky because I had VHI cover. Therefore, I was able to have an operation, which was totally covered. However, when I inquired about my post operative entitlements I was told that VHI would pay for two weeks in a convalescent home after the operation at a rate of £700 per week. I felt the nine days I spent in hospital was long enough and I wanted to go home. I asked if home help could be provided but VHI could not pay for home help even though home helps are paid approximately £3 per hour, which is disgraceful. I paid the person out of my own pocket. However, it is an interesting insight into VHI's thinking whereby all patients with cover could spend two weeks in very expensive convalescent home but it would not pay for a home help.

I very much appreciate the capital allocation to the University Hospital Cork. It was one of the most shamefully neglected institutions in terms of capital expenditure. It had ramshackle buildings and its accident and emergency unit was a total disgrace. It was an absolute embarrassment to see the way it was laid out. I am glad money has been provided for new accident and emergency and maternity units. I thank the Minister for that. However, more new ideas are needed to make sure people who need the service get value out of the money invested, which is provided by the taxpayer. I am not sure that is the case currently.

Mr. Ryan

I was entertained by the Minister even if I was not enlightened very much. He began his remarks with an impassioned plea for rational debate, an absence of emotion and a lack of party political fighting so as not to get us away from the important issues. He proceeded with a vintage Deputy Cowen performance in which everything except rational debate was present. He is good at it and, therefore, he is entertaining apart from the obvious fact that he was a little offensive to medical secretaries, as Senator Henry said, and was not offensive enough to other people.

I have a very simple view. If the Minister believes that certain health boards have overrun their budgets having agreed them with him and are not capable, he should sack the executives responsible who he says agreed a budget which was sufficient for their needs and for which they had statutory responsibility. If he believes they are culpable there is no case for unfair dismissal because they have failed to do their jobs. However, I suspect he is aware that if he did that he would end up with a succession of successful court actions against him demonstrating that it was always impossible for them to meet their needs.

It is terrible to play games with the health service and, perhaps, all of us do it but it is unfair to pretend that what other people did has anything to do with the debate. For the record I was not a Member during the tenure of the previous Government. However, I had the temerity to dispute the Minister's foolish cause and effect suggestion that because the Government lowered the rate of capital gains tax, returns increased, which is the most glorious non sequitur I have heard in a long time. It just might be a one off but we will not know for a number of years.

If I were in a position to make a vast capital gain, I would have done so last year because I have a strong suspicion that capital gains tax will increase again and when it does I will not make a capital gain. It did not have a great social benefit but the senior executives of most Irish publicly quoted companies made a killing out of getting rid of large numbers of shares which they had on risk free share options. A debate on capital gains tax is irrelevant, but the Minister could not resist it and I will not either. It was a wonderful gesture by the Government to make the very rich in our society even richer and further cement the fact that it is committed to creating and sustaining a two tiered society. The Government does so through the tax system and it did so through its indifference to the spectacular inequities of the housing market until it was about two years too late. What was obvious to everybody was not to the Government until its friends in the building industry had made their fortunes and it is committed to doing the same in the health system. Smoke and mirrors, as Deputy Rabbitte said, will not get away from the fact that practitioners such as Senator Henry are at the end of their tether because of the inadequacies of the system.

The Minister plays wonderful games and tricks and quotes percentages, etc. I am sure he is right about the inadequacy of the capital funding for the health services over recent years. The Department of Finance does not believe in public expenditure and it will spend its entire life trying to stop spending. It did so successfully in terms of overseas development aid. In times of hardship it is easier to postpone capital investment than to cut back on the basic provision of routine day to day care for people in immediate need. Therefore, when the Department of Finance gets its hands on any budget it postpones everything it can get away with because it does not believe in public expenditure. An official of the Department who appeared before a committee of this House stated that "Cutting taxes is of itself a good thing".

That Department controls the Department of Health and Children and is currently run by the most reactionary Minister the State has had in 25 years. He was proud of his capacity to hurt the poor which he boasted about during his time at the Department of Social Welfare and he will boast about it in terms of overseas development aid. He will also do a fine job on those who must live with the public health service. That is the type of policy which the Minister defends and no amount of waving around of figures will get away from this because he is in a most unique position. The Government is awash with money. The tragedy is that a Government awash with money has a Minister for Finance who does not think it should be spent on those who need it in terms of social welfare, health care and overseas development aid. He thinks it should be used to pay off the national debt and prove to the Governor of the European Central Bank that he is a good guy. That is the Government's problem.

There are practical, managerial and expenditure solutions to this problem and all three are needed. The Minister for Health and Children is right when he says that waiting lists are not the issue but the length of time one must wait — what a noble target, a maximum of 12 months. Nobody in this House who had a serious ailment would tolerate a wait of 12 months and none of us ever had to. Seven or eight years ago one of my children needed an operation to put grommets in his ears. We discovered that if we did not use our VHI cover my son would have to wait two and a half years for an examination and up to a further 18 months for an operation at which stage he would probably have been permanently deaf.

Twelve months is not a particularly fine target and the real disgrace of the Minister's speech, apart from the emotional nonsense he wafted around, was that he thinks 12 months is a good target. However, that is a Third World target. Ireland is now one of the richest First World countries and it is time we got a First World health service and not the left overs of impoverishment, colonialism and inequality.

I support the amendment. I listened carefully to all the speakers, including the Minister, and it is abundantly clear that a huge amount of money has been put into the health service in recent years. It is interesting to note that in 1993 under the Fianna Fáil-Labour Government and the then Minister for Health, Deputy Howlin, a total of £20 million was allocated to deal with waiting lists. The amount allocated in 1994 was £10 million while £8 million was allocated in 1995; in 1996, £12 million was allocated and £8 million was allocated in 1997. This year a total of £12 million has been allocated, giving a total of £70 million. It is abundantly clear that throwing money at this problem is not solving it.

I strongly endorse the Minister's comments. It was stated that he was emotional, but when he was confronted by the Opposition's comments about what he has not done, he responded by outlining the measures he has taken. If I was in his position, I too would be emotional. The Minister had every right to be so.

It is obvious that throwing money at this problem is not resolving it. The validation of the waiting lists is most important. It is vital that hospitals validate their waiting list data consistently and accurately. Failure to do so makes it very difficult to quantify the true extent of the problem. Equally, it is important that the Department of Health and Children, health boards and individual hospitals are explicit about the criteria for compiling, validating and prioritising waiting lists and for allocating funding to individual agencies and specialties. The Department has placed particular emphasis on this area and it will continue to do so in the coming months, particularly in the context of the review group's report which stresses the importance of regularly validating all waiting lists to ensure that they present an accurate and fully up to date picture.

Arising from the report, hospitals will be again instructed to carry out a detailed review of their waiting list data. If necessary, this will include a postal review in which general practitioners and patients will be contacted by letter and asked to confirm that the procedure for which they are on a waiting list is still required. In some cases, patients are being treated by another hospital or the general practitioner may conclude that the procedure is not wanted. At the same time, they are a statistic on a waiting list. This is one of the reasons the lists are inflated.

The Minister outlined his approach to waiting lists and times. The operative phrase is "waiting times" because, as the Minister and Senator Quill said, it does not matter if one is number 10,000 on a list if one is called reasonably quickly and given the procedure for which one is waiting. This is important. Since taking office the Minister has taken a number of major steps to address waiting lists and times. I was surprised to hear Senator Gallagher articulating his concern. When his party was in Government, it only allocated £8 million to this area, a reduction from the previous year of £4 million.

We did not let the wards close in Tullamore.

There were no ward closures during the summer this year. However, as the Minister said, ward closures are not a new phenomenon; it has been ongoing for a number of years. As somebody who worked in a hospital for many years, I know that it is not a new development. It is mischievous of Senator Costello to say it is a new departure.

The Minister allocated £12 million to the waiting lists initiative in 1998, which is approximately 50 per cent more than the amount allocated by the previous Government in 1997. The Minister also instituted a series of revised arrangements for the operation of the waiting lists initiative in 1998. He has also undertaken to produce the first formal analysis of the underlying causes of waiting lists and waiting times to be established by the review group.

The Minister has brought forward revised arrangements for the operation of the waiting lists initiative for 1998, including much earlier notification to hospitals of the level of funding available to them. Hospitals will receive their funding notification in December which will allow them to produce their service plans. The revised arrangements also include an increased focus on waiting times as well as waiting lists with the objective of ensuring that children do not have to wait any longer than six months and adults no longer than 12 months in the specialties targeted for attention. I do not suggest this is Utopia, but it is much better than the position in the past.

Hospitals will be also required to specify targets for waiting lists activity during the year. It is the responsibility of the chief executive officer/hospital manager to ensure that the targets are achieved and to take corrective action if necessary. This is good management strategy and it reflects Senator Ryan's point that if the personnel are not living up to their administrative responsibilities, they should be sacked by the Minister. The revised arrangements also include the designation of an individual in each hospital to act as a co-ordinator of waiting list work and a contact point with the Department of Health and Children. In addition, the funding for the waiting lists initiative has been increased by 50 per cent.

I was pleased last Friday when the Minister opened the new phase 2A development at Mullingar General Hospital. When the hospital was waiting to commission phase 2A, the Government of the day did not provide any money to the hospital to allow it put the development into operation. The Minister, Deputy Cowen, provided 50 per cent of the funds required to open the unit. In addition, last Friday the Minister allocated £10 million for a paediatric unit, a psychiatric unit and other improvements in Senator Gallagher's constituency. The Minister is not only talking, he is taking action.

In my area, I am pleased that activity in the Midland Health Board's acute hospitals at Mullingar, Tullamore and Portlaoise will be at record levels in 1998. All three hospitals will also treat record numbers of accident and emergency cases this year. The Midland Health Board will exceed the service levels provided for in its service plan with the Department of Health and Children at the beginning of the year and it will have delivered fully on its commitments under the Minister's waiting lists initiative.

There were calls in the House for a debate on road accidents. They impact on this area because the injured are taken to hospital and this affects the overall resources of the hospital. They are a major source of the acute cases which must be admitted to hospitals. The treatment of trauma cases contributes in a major way to the inflation of waiting lists.

I am pleased to contribute to the debate. Members on all sides will agree that the state of the health service, expenditure on it and how it is managed is one of the most important and pertinent issues in terms of public policy. Few issues are closer to the hearts and minds of the people than the state of the health service. I am not sure whether it is a particularly Irish trait but people feel very strongly about the provision of a good quality health service, particularly in their communities for themselves and elderly people in their families and the locality.

The issue of health spending has not only now become a political hot potato. It has been so during the lifetime of this and previous Administrations. Governments which ignore this issue or mismanage our health services do so at their peril.

Against the background of the mythical Celtic tiger, which has become a cliché, some realities need restating. Only two weeks ago the Minister for Finance banked £1 billion towards repaying the national debt. He currently has £2,500 million of a budget surplus. The spending of such money is a defining feature of any Government. Like its predecessors, the Government faces spending choices. A Fianna Fáil Party member in my locality recently made the ridiculous comment that it was harder to spend money than not. I disagree. The public knows we are living in times of plenty. It knows there have never been more people at work and that the Government has never had more money to spend. It also knows that, in many respects, we have never been better off.

Given this, it is incomprehensible to members of the public to find waiting lists for hospital services and elderly people on hospital trolleys at weekends. This is a common occurrence in Nenagh General Hospital where, almost as a matter of habit, elderly patients are to be seen on trolleys every weekend, perhaps two or three on a corridor, while the geriatric unit, which closed during the summer, remains to be reopened. I am constantly asked to explain why this is so.

In a time of plenty people want adequate, good quality health services, especially for the elderly and ill members of their families. Is that too much to ask and to expect? It is not. We know from surveys and from our experience that people do not mind paying for good quality education and health care.

Is it too much to expect that people will get a good quality service in their own communities in this day and age? I especially want to direct this question to the treatment of the disabled. We all know the Irish Wheelchair Association and nine other organisations are lobbying for the paltry sum of £17 million towards the provision of resource centres, personal assistants and aids appliances in the current year. When the then Minister for Equality and Law Reform built his Department we finally stopped paying lip service to the disabled community and gave legitimacy and reality to the notion that disabled people have as many human rights, including rights to dignity and bodily integrity, as the rest of us. The then Minister committed funding to that area which has not been met.

On behalf of the disabled I put it to the Minister that the sum of £17 million, not much in the context of a budget surplus of £2,500 million, is barely pennies to spend on a community which has long waited to be treated with dignity and respect. In his speech the Minister gave a positive indication on this issue. The disabled community waits in anticipation of the budget and an announcement that some of the massive budget surplus will be directed towards it. It would be excellent news and a recognition that the days of lip service by the Government are over.

It is a question of choices. Who benefits from the current economic prosperity? Are we going to make the investment decisions now which will give us long-term value for money and ensure that everybody, especially those who do not have the ability to pay, have access to high quality health care in their community and that families can be assured their elderly members especially will be cared for with dignity at the end of their days?

I wish to share my time with Senator Cox.

Is that agreed? Agreed.

Senator O'Meara referred to a Fianna Fáil Party member in her locality saying it was harder to spend money than not. If the Minister was to follow the Senator's advice he would not have a penny left. I will not dwell on waiting lists. The Minister addressed it very well in his speech.

If a health board has overrun its budget unwisely why should it be given more money, especially if the Minister gave adequate warning? My health board has stayed within its limits. Why should it keep to the rules if nobody else does? There is no excuse for seeking more money six weeks before Christmas. By August or September health boards knew their financial position for the end of the year and they should have made adjustments then.

I worked in the health service in 1987 when there were serious problems because of lack of funding. A crisis in a hospital arises when even menial services are restricted. For example, at that time one was allowed only one piece of paper to dry one's hands.

The history of Labour Party Health Ministers in my county has been disgraceful. In 1975 the then Minister for Health and Social Welfare, Brendan Corish, proposed the closure of Monaghan County Hospital and the change to a community hospital. Thankfully we rejected the proposal. When Fianna Fáil was in Government in 1978 we received an assurance the hospital would remain open. In 1983 the then Minister for Health and Social Welfare, Barry Desmond, demanded the closure of the hospital. He was known as the Minister for Close and Dispose. At the time the people of County Monaghan raised £100,000 to bring a case to court. My father was a Deputy at the time and he signed an affidavit to allow matters proceed to court. We won our High Court case and maintained the hospital.

Regardless of what others may say, the Minister for Health and Children provided us with an allocation of £5 million this year. That may not mean much to the Labour Party Senators, but it means a lot to Monaghan County Hospital. It will allow us to build our accident and emergency wing and theatres. It also means that when structures are in place we can be assured that we will keep our hospital.

Senator Henry referred to the low morale in nursing. There is low morale in nursing but part of the problem — I am sorry the Senator is not present — arises from the way nurses are treated by their doctors. Senator Henry failed to mention that. There has been low morale in our hospital for the past 20 years from the time a Labour

Party Minster tried to close it. We fought it tooth and nail and only in the early part of the summer did the Minster for Health and Children provide funding of £5 million for the hospital. I am grateful for that. At least we can stand up and say Fianna Fáil was the party which assured our county of a health service.

There is no simple solution to addressing the difficulties in our health service. I am not afraid to stand up and say that there are difficulties in our health service but show me one anywhere, whether in a Third World or a First World country, which does not have difficulties. That is the nature of the health service. Anyone who stands up and says otherwise is a hypocrite and is playing games and playing politics.

At the beginning of the year every member of my health board, of which I am one, agreed a service plan and a level of activity which it would provide in our region for an amount of money agreed with the Department. If one wants to argue about the definition of needs and whether we had enough money to meet the needs of the region, that is a different matter. The argument before us refers to bed closures.

The health board of which I am a member agreed to provide a level of activity within budget and to try to work the accountability legislation. It takes time to change and this is the first year we have had to do so. Perhaps we did not do so well enough but I have not come here to cry on the Minister's shoulder and ask him to help us out. That is not what I, as a health board member, am there to do. I am there to do the job I was appointed to the health board to do which is to try to run the hospital.

At the end of this year I will argue with the Minister for much more money to provide services in the hospitals and community care in the Western Health Board region. I will, however, argue that for next year and try to get a service plan to which we can work. I will not come crying to the Minister looking for more money to do this year's business.

There are many difficulties in our health services as a result of years of underfunding. We can all talk about paltry sums of money like £17 million. Since when has £17 million become a paltry sum of money? How long does it take to get £17 million? How long do we have to work to earn that amount?

It is a paltry sum in the context of £2,500 million.

An amount of £17 million, £10 million or £1 million is not a paltry sum of money. To those who work in business and those who pay PAYE that is not a paltry sum. I do not want to see every penny of tax I pay wasted by an organisation in any area, health or otherwise. That is not to take away from the argument of the Wheelchair Association and those with a disability. I recognise that people with a disability have a right to a life and to equal rights but I have grave problems with people saying that £17 million, £10 million or £1 million is a paltry sum.

I agree with an earlier speaker that radical change is needed in how things are done. People are in hospital beds for two or three days too long because the consultant did not come to discharge them. That is a crying shame. There are instances where a person is not allowed home on a Friday and must stay until Monday morning until another patient comes in because the consultant might want the person to stay in that hospital bed. That is not to say all consultants are bad or wrong, they are not. However, we are not all doing our job. Some nurses and doctors on wards waste money as can administration. We must look at wastage from an overall point of view. That will require radical change but change takes time and is difficult. In a health service which employs 6,000 throughout the country and in the Western Health Board, it will be difficult to bring about that change within one or one and a half years. The Government has a programme to make things better and it will do so. I fully commend the Minister and those in his Department on the hard work they are doing.

I am glad to have the opportunity to take even a small part in this very important debate. The one thing I regret is that it has obviously become very partisan in a political sense. That was not necessary because it seems the Labour Party motion was not that controversial. With a little flexibility, it might have been accepted by the Government because it does not really criticise the Minister directly; it expresses concern. Are we not concerned or are we not aware that there is a crisis? Of course, we are. There are increasing waiting lists and ward closures; that is simply reciting the facts.

It is a pity this debate became partisan and I do not want to be partisan. I know the Minister and knew him in his previous incarnations. He is a highly competent, shrewd political intelligence. Of course the Department itself is very often a poison chalice. No matter how much money it gets, it is inevitable that there will always be a demand for more.

On the hospital ward closures, I listened to some of my Fianna Fáil colleagues for whom I have the highest regard, and I know they have experience of working on health boards. They said that if one health board kept within budget and another did not, that is their problem — let them suffer. It is not the health boards which are suffering but the unfortunate patients. I think of those caught in a battle between these different jurisdictions, these different bureaucracies; they are the people who are in pain and who are being denied a bed in hospital and elective surgery. This is wrong.

We should take the partisan element out of the debate and stop scoring points. Every party, however, does so and the unkindest cuts of all are raised at every election. It inevitably backfires because anybody with a long memory can point the finger of guilt and suspicion at another party. It is a pity because my sympathy is not for the health boards, the consultants or the doctors; it is a little for the nurses but it is really for the patients and that is where it pinches.

I heard a woman on the radio this morning talking about her son who had some type of acute inflamed tonsillitis. She could not get him operated on and he was in misery and pain. She borrowed £900 from her local credit union and he went into hospital immediately and was operated on.

That is the problem. There are no private waiting lists.

Senator Cox actually agrees with me. That is part of the problem. That woman had a generous spirit and said she was glad she was able to do so. She was ringing up not to complain about her case but she asked about people who had to watch their child in misery, could not afford the operation and could not go to the credit union. Again, I am not making a partisan point but it is wrong that that should happen.

On low morale in nursing caused by doctors, that is a new one but I suppose it is possible. I do not believe, however, that it is entirely the case.

Believe you me, it is possible.

If I was to take a smack at anyone, I would take it at the consultants because the medical profession gets very arrogant. After all, they see us literally with our trousers or our skirts down. We are in misery and in fear and trepidation we hang on to every word and think they can take us out of pain. I had lectures given to me about James Joyce and on 18th century architecture by doctors. They become experts on absolutely everything and I imagine that they can be difficult and opinionated. I could spent much time telling stories about this but I will not. They are not helped, however, when there are ward closures.

I have a cousin who is a consultant and he is fairly arrogant. Because of all the ward closures some years ago, he went to Botswana. He did not go for money but because he wanted to be able to take people out of pain. It was a grief to him not to have the facilities to operate with the frequency he wanted.

I honour and salute that surgeon in Galway who gave up half his salary so that a bed could be opened in the hospital. Some people might say it was a publicity stunt. Are we, as politicians, in a position to criticise him for a publicity stunt? If it was a publicity stunt, it was a damn good one and he was great to do so. What are we going to say about it? Look at our colleague in the Lower House who took only half his salary and gave the rest to his party, of which I think he is the only member, for his election purposes and then collected £28,000 pass-go on the way to jail. He has done pretty well so politicians are not in a position to criticise the medical profession on that basis.

A sum of £20 million or £17 million is a lot of money but £20 million was a lot to spend on Croke Park.

That is unfair. There is no comparison.

I must ask Senator Norris to conclude.

That is the power of the GAA. I am being silenced for criticising it. My cousin was right, it is the real Government of Ireland.

We should abandon the partisan attitude, whether it is between political parties, all of whom share some guilt, or the health boards. They have not got the right to injure the ordinary patient in their petty little battles.

I am delighted we had this debate. I am aware that many of the contributors tonight have direct experience of the health services as members of the medical profession or members of health boards, or have indirect experience as public representatives.

I agree with many of the points made by Senator Fitzpatrick, but to those who have been trying to use the Health (Amendment) Act as cover from the current difficulties, it does not prevent the Minister from introducing a Supplementary Estimate in the House — he is doing that in the Dáil tomorrow in respect of other elements of health board expenditure. It does not prevent him from adjudicating on grounds of efficiency and productivity and rewarding those hospitals which are productive and efficient by letting them keep their wards open and their staff working and continuing to treat their patients.

I welcomed the Minister's outline of his proposals, particularly what he said about the public health system. Like Senator Ryan, he stated that he sought rational, unemotional and non-political debate but it did not end up that way. I hope that the proposals he has for the reform of the public health system come to fruition.

I did not introduce ideology into the debate. That is the Minister's favourite word when he is trying to talk down opponents. I pointed out how feasible it is now, with unprecedented amounts of money available to the Exchequer, to address the needs in the health service, in the context of a £1 billion surplus and where one of the first decisions of the Government was to reduce capital gains tax to below the lowest level of income tax to the extent that speculation in property is now rewarded to a greater degree than going out to do a day's work.

The Minister made an incorrect statement when he became emotional about nothing being done for the mentally handicapped. I refrained from reciting lists of party political achievements but, for the record, in 1992 when the Minister, Deputy Cowen was in the Government, in much more difficult times, money was secured to address health issues. There was a £25 million initial investment in services for the mentally handicapped; £100 million was provided to eliminate health board debts; hospital waiting lists were slashed with the introduction of the waiting lists initiative; dental treatment was introduced for medical card holders and hospital out-patient charges for public patients, which Deputy O'Hanlon had introduced in harder times, were reduced.

I agree with the points made by Senator Ryan. I am glad to hear that Senator Glynn acknowledged the contribution made by Deputy Howlin when he was Minister for Health. I was glad to support him in the initiation of the development plan for Mullingar which he got off the ground and which the current Minister has seen to fruition. I point out to Senator Glynn that, no matter what it took, we did not let wards close in Tullamore while the last Government was in office.

I identify with Senator Leonard's experience of defending her hospital. My first experience of political involvement was in a similar campaign in Tullamore in 1977. It did not, however, blind me to the wider benefits and attractions of involvement with the Labour Party. My membership of the Midland Health Board was terminated after a short time by a letter from the Minister.

In relation to what was said by Senator Cox, the elected members and the members of health boards should be more centrally involved in the framing and monitoring of budgets. The Health (Amendment) Act should be amended to provide an early warning system to allow members and board officials to contact the Department. If needs are becoming unexpectedly high they should be addressed in the current year and not kicked forward into next year.

I am disappointed that the Minister has not given a commitment to include in the Supplementary Estimate tomorrow measures to address the current difficulties with ward closures. He is the Minister with political responsibility for this and his refusal says to those who have had their operations cancelled that they must wait longer but things will be better in the future. That is of no consolation to patients, nurses or attendants whose efficiency, productivity and dedication in many hospitals are being rewarded with their being put out of work for the Christmas season.

I commend the motion to the House.

Amendment put
The Seanad divided: Tá, 22; Níl, 18.

  • Bohan, Eddie.
  • Bonner, Enda.
  • Callanan, Peter.
  • Cassidy, Donie.
  • Chambers, Frank.
  • Cox, Margaret.
  • Cregan, John.
  • Dardis, John.
  • Farrell, Willie.
  • Fitzgerald, Tom.
  • Fitzpatrick, Dermot.
  • Gibbons, Jim.
  • Glynn, Camillus.
  • Kett, Tony.
  • Kiely, Daniel.
  • Kiely, Rory.
  • Lanigan, Mick.
  • Leonard, Ann.
  • O'Brien, Francis.
  • Ormonde, Ann.
  • Quill, Máirín.
  • Walsh, Jim.

Níl

  • Burke, Paddy.
  • Coghlan, Paul.
  • Cosgrave, Liam T.
  • Costello, Joe.
  • Cregan, Denis (Dino).
  • Doyle, Avril.
  • Gallagher, Pat.
  • Hayes, Tom.
  • Henry, Mary.
  • Jackman, Mary.
  • McDonagh, Jarlath.
  • Norris, David.
  • O'Dowd, Fergus.
  • O'Meara, Kathleen.
  • O'Toole, Joe.
  • Ridge, Thére se.
  • Ryan, Brendan.
  • Taylor-Quinn, Madeleine.
Tellers: Tá, Senators T. Fitzgerald and Gibbons; Níl, Senators Gallagher and O'Meara.
Amendment declared carried.
Question, "That the motion, as amended, be agreed to", put and declared carried.

When is it proposed to sit again?

At 10.30 a.m. tomorrow.

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