Seanad Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 10 Feb 1999

Vol. 158 No. 3

Order of Business.

Mr. Cassidy

Before the Order of Business, I wish to express the sympathy of the House to the people of Jordan on the death of King Hussein, who served his people so well over the past 40 years. On behalf of the House, I wish King Abdullah well on assuming office, in his important role of representing his people at such an important time in the history of his country.

Today's Order of Business is item 1 and item 16, motion 36. On item 1, Order for Second Stage and Second Stage, the contributions of spokespersons on Second Stage are not to exceed 15 minutes. All other Senators may speak for ten minutes and they may share time. Item 16, motion 36, is to be taken from 6 p.m. to 8 p.m. and item 1 is to resume thereafter if not previously concluded.

Mr. Manning

I concur with the Leader in the expression of sympathy to the people of Jordan on the death of King Hussein. It is rare to see a nation so united in grief as the Jordanians have been on the death of their king. It is rare also to hear such unanimity of expressions of regret from world leaders. King Hussein played a very constructive role over a long period in trying to bring peace and stability to that region. I also join in the expression of good wishes to King Abdullah.

I ask the Leader for a debate in the near future on Northern Ireland. He may say that we had a debate on Northern Ireland at the end of the last session. That debate was set against the background of promising developments and a major breakthrough on that day but sadly, the progress which we all expected on that day has not taken place. There have been some serious developments in the North and in the process since then. Given that all sides of this House have always been supportive and responsible in their attitude to Northern Ireland, I ask the Leader for a debate as soon as possible. It need not necessarily be held this week; next week will do. He should allow more time than usual so that as many speakers as possible can participate because it is frustrating for speakers who want to speak on Northern Ireland to find themselves confined to two or three minutes, as is often the case.

Can the Leader tell us if this House has any role in the making of legislation? On the radio last Monday I heard an official of the Department of Social, Community and Family Affairs announce a range of new measures which are to be introduced, including the searching of cars and the inspection of bank accounts. These measures appeared to be about to be introduced on the say so of officials. I was under the impression that changes in the law should come before both Houses of the Oireachtas and that we should, at least, be consulted on them. Are civil servants now taking us so much for granted that they announce, as a fait accompli, measures which have not come before either House? The Minister for Social, Community and Family Affairs should not have instructed an official to make announcements such as these. It is reprehensible and regrettable that civil servants are now assuming the role of Parliament.

Mr. O'Toole

I concur with the Leader's words concerning King Hussein of Jordan. President Arafat's words were very well put when he referred yesterday to the work of King Hussein and to the fact that King Abdullah can now be seen as a great son succeeding a great father. The work of King Hussein of Jordan in trying to hold a middle line in a divided country and in a divided region showed a great openness to all elements in society as he tried to bring all sides of the Middle East conflict together. He made a mark on that region and, in macro-political terms, we will support the work he tried to do. In micro-political terms, I look forward to seeing a more progressive regime and inclusive and participative democracy develop in Jordan under King Abdullah.

I re-echo, as I did last week, the words of Senator Manning regarding Northern Ireland and the need for a debate on this subject. Wearing a number of other hats, I have been in negotiation with approximately ten different groups concerning matters arising from the peace process. With the Irish Congress of Trade Unions, I have been involved in discussions with the Irish Business and Employers Federation and the Confederation of British Industry regarding an all-Ireland approach. I have been involved with various education groups and in meetings on behalf of the my own organisation, the Irish National Teachers' Organisation. All these groups are putting together policies or having discussions.

The last three meetings of the ICTU executive council discussed the document of 16 December. I do not propose to make a detailed statement, I merely call for a debate on the matter. As Senator Manning said, we are marginalising ourselves at a time when we need to examine this question, learn about it and put our views. Many of us have not had the time to examine the document of 16 December last, which is the second step of the British-Irish Agreement. We have a duty and a responsibility to discuss this question, to offer views on it and to indicate how we might move it forward. The three strands of the Agreement – the internal Northern Ireland departments; the implementation of cross-Border structures which have implications for all of us here and the areas of co-operation, which could be the most important of all – are hugely important. These are issues on which there must be a political view. I strongly support the call for a debate on Northern Ireland. We depend on you, Sir, to ensure that we have a serious debate on this issue. All sides of the House have much to contribute on this question.

Can the Leader clarify the position with regard to the sale of passports? I see in today's newspaper that passports are still being sold. I do not suggest that anyone acted in breach of the legislation which was passed by this House. However, the fact that members of the family of Mr. John Paul Getty can buy Irish passports may be of great interest to that family but it diminishes and demeans the status and reputation of this country. Can the Leader tell the House how many more sales of passports are proposed, to whom will the passports be sold and on what basis? We thought we had seen the end of this practice.

I remind the Leader that, in the last session, he undertook to hold a debate on industrial relations. Such a debate is necessary in this year which will see the end of Partnership 2000 and when we need to look to the future. The plight of the social partners and of the employed and unemployed and relations among trade unions, management and Government are issues which need to be examined. I look forward to an early debate on these matters.

Mr. Costello

On behalf of the Labour group, I wish to be associated with the remarks of sympathy and condolence made by the Leader and the other spokespersons on the death of King Hussein, and to wish well his successor, the young King Abdullah. King Hussein was a wonderful leader in a very turbulent time in a very disturbed area in the Middle East. Throughout that period, he was always a practitioner and protagonist of peace. We should recognise that in the context of what we are trying to do on this island in terms of the British-Irish Agreement and of getting a peaceful solution to our own centuries long controversies and difficulties.

I also wish to be associated with the request for an early debate – ideally tomorrow but, if not, early next week – on Northern Ireland. We have reached a log jam. Dates on which institutions were to have been established have been missed. The establishment of the Executive seems to be in extremely difficult circumstances. Decommissioning, policing and the question of prisoners remain major issues.

We must have a debate because we have responsibilities under the British-Irish Agreement, particularly in relation to cross-Border activities, the Executive and communications. We should be fulfilling our role in that regard, and one way of so doing is for the Leader to organise a substantial debate in this House with the Minister for Foreign Affairs.

I agree with Senator Manning's concerns about the manner in which civil servants and Ministers brief the media on new legislation before they brief parliamentarians. That is unacceptable. Spokespersons should be given proposed legislation first. The Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform has already put a new Bill into the public domain, although the spokespersons have not been given copies of it. We have previously heard information from civil servants before it had been put into the parliamentary domain.

Will the Leader arrange a debate on the State banking system? Fine Gael has tabled a Private Members' motion today on the farming community and the disposal of the assets from the sale of ACC. Before we decide how we are going to dispose of the public silver, we should have a debate on whether we are going to dispose of it and what the parameters might be.

We read in today's newspapers that the ICC made a pre-tax profit of 31 per cent, with a very substantial dividend to the State. The future of the ICC, ACC and TSB, which are the State's family silver in the banking sector, and the performance of the major banks – the Bank of Ireland, AIB and National Irish Bank, all of which have clouds over their heads – should be the subject of a major debate in the House.

Mr. Dardis

On behalf of the Progressive Democrats, I join with the other groups in expressing our sympathy and condolences to the people of Jordan on the death of King Hussein and to wish his successor, King Abdullah, every success. It was a remarkable tribute to King Hussein that, over 47 years, he was able to maintain such a stable balance in a very unstable area. He was one of the primary agents of that stability and it was a remarkable tribute to his powers of politics and diplomacy that he could do that. It was also remarkable that he survived for those 47 years, given that many prominent leaders in that area were assassinated. We record his passing.

I agree with Senator Manning on the need for a debate on Northern Ireland. My colleague, Senator Quill, will deal with that in more detail. It would be very useful to contribute to such a debate. Our record in the House, as I am sure the Cathaoirleach will agree, is one of very sensible and prudent debate and we have not shirked from providing criticism where that has been required. We should speak about the need for all parties to abide by the terms of the British-Irish Agreement and not try to rewrite them according to each party's own lights. I agree with a point made by Senator Manning. The primacy of Parliament is the most important part of a democracy. An executive proposes business but Parliament disposes of it. We vest certain powers in Ministers through legislation in terms of orders and so on. That is not to detract from the argument in terms of what a Parliament should or should not do.

On the passports issue, these matters were outstanding prior to the passing of the legislation and applications made prior to that point are being disposed of. It has taken quite a long time to do that. It is generally agreed that no further applications will be accepted; that has been enshrined in legislation.

The fodder crisis and the disposal of the assets of the ACC Bank are due to be debated in Private Members' time this evening. I do not want to anticipate comments which may be made during that debate but we are entering a very critical fortnight in terms of the future of Irish agriculture, its national significance and the need for all parties in both Houses to unite behind the Government to defend the family farm and the rural way of life. It would be extremely important that, prior to the Minister for Agriculture and Food going to Brussels or prior to the Heads of Government meeting, the House would be afforded an extensive opportunity to debate these issues in full and express its support for the actions which need to be taken at European level to ensure there is a future for Irish family farms.

Mr. Lanigan

Will the Leader arrange for an early debate on the fact that 1999 is the UN Year of the Aged? We should discuss this issue comprehensively as the aged comprise a growing percentage of the population. We have heard much in recent years about what should be done to ensure we provide recreational opportunities for young people but, unfortunately, the aged have been overlooked in our drive to cater for young people.

A number of Members in this House are heading into the category of the aged. There is a growing number of people between the ages of 80 and 100 years – of whom my father is one – who are not being catered for properly. This Government and other Governments in the past have attempted to resolve some of the problems in this area but they have not been successful. Although they may have money, some elderly people are forced to live with the poverty of loneliness and are unable to take care of themselves. With increased economic prosperity, the extended family is disappearing. We must hold a comprehensive debate on this issue early in the year in order that we might have some input into measures taken within or outside Government circles to address it.

In regard to the vote of sympathy to the Jordanian people and the family of the late King Hussein and the accession to the throne of Prince Abdullah, it is time we had a comprehensive debate on foreign affairs. It is very difficult to compartmentalise a debate of this nature. Those of us who are members of the Joint Committee on Foreign Affairs or the Subcommittees on Human Rights and Overseas Development are aware of the daily demands made by NGOs and others for Ireland to become involved in various situations. I would like to have a comprehensive debate which would encompass the wars in the Great Lakes region of Africa, the situation in Kosovo and-—

An Cathaoirleach

I would ask the Senator to be brief. A total of 12 Senators have indicated their desire to contribute on the Order of Business.

Mr. Lanigan

Can we have a debate on foreign affairs which encompasses PfP and the Army's role in the future?

Mr. Burke

Well said.

Mrs. Ridge

I join in the call for a debate on Northern Ireland, as recent statements in newspapers and the media in general from Sinn Féin indicate that not only is the tail trying to wag the dog, but that the tail thinks it is the dog. It is important that all these matters are teased out at every level.

I also wish to raise something very practical which has been referred to in the House on a number of occasions, namely, new developments regarding credit cards. Do Members realise that one cannot place an advertisement in a national newspaper if one does not have a credit card? Do they realise that one cannot get one's car unclamped without a credit card?

An Cathaoirleach

We cannot debate the matter now. The Senator may ask for a debate on the matter and I am sure the Leader will give sympathetic consideration to arranging such a debate.

Mrs. Ridge

I appreciate that, and I know the Cathaoirleach appreciates that I am known for brevity. While I appreciate that the Leader promises many things, he does not always have the ability to deliver due to time constraints. Will he raise this most peculiar practice with the appropriate Minister? It means that if one does not have a credit card one cannot put an advertisement in a newspaper. There seems to be a link up between major institutions and credit card companies. I ask the Leader to bring this to the attention of the relevant Minister as it is a very important issue.

An Cathaoirleach

It might be more appropriate for the Senator to raise the matter on the Adjournment.

Mrs. Ridge

I will take the Cathaoirleach's advice.

Ms Ormonde

I wish to raise the effect of legislation passed by both Houses. I refer in particular to a report I heard on the radio the other day in which principals of second level schools expressed concern about the number of school going students who are still working and I wonder whether legislation which we passed many months ago has any impact. I am concerned that legislation is going nowhere.

An issue I have raised many times in the House is the role of FÁS and apprenticeships. Before Christmas we discussed at length the annual report of FÁS. I hear many stories they are not taking on 15 or 16 year old students from second level schools because they do not meet the necessary requirements. There is something radically wrong when there is a lack of co-ordination between the Department of Education and Science and the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment. This is a very important time to debate the matter, particularly when there is such a shortage of skills, something we all recognise. If any of us is looking for a plumber or carpenter we cannot get one, we have asked for a debate on the issue many times but I do not know how we can ensure such a debate takes place. I would very much like a debate on the matter and know the country would like to hear what we have to say.

Mr. Norris

I join with other Senators in paying tribute to the late King Hussein of Jordan. It was remarkable the wide spectrum of people from the Middle East and all over the world who attended his funeral and it demonstrated the important role he played as a bridge in Middle East politics. I remember when seven Israeli school girls were massacred, King Hussein travelled to their homes, knelt in front of them and asked their pardon. It was an act of extraordinary grace and dignity and went to the hearts of the Israeli people. He and Queen Noor had started addressing sophisticated problems, such as the role of women in Arab society, particularly the awful idea of so-called honour killings. I think we all mourn his loss.

I was a bit surprised that my colleague, Senator O'Toole, mentioned the name of a supposed recipient of a passport. I know the man, although not that well, and he is an immensely cultivated, intelligent person who frequently but discreetly visits this country. Could we persuade him to visit a little bit more and settle, as he did in England, where he has put £250 million into English cultural institutions? We should be so lucky.

In the tradition of suggestions made and that of allowing this House on many occasions to invite distinguished people to come here, would it be a good idea for the Leader to consider inviting Commissioner Flynn to come to the House and explain the nature of his—

An Cathaoirleach

As the Senator knows, it is not in order to raise in the House the question of who might or might not be invited to address it.

Mr. Norris

I apologise. It is not my intention to be disorderly. I notice in the newspaper today that the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, Deputy O'Donoghue, has indicated his intention to bring in fairly soon legislation covering the intimidation of witnesses and making it a criminal offence. I find that very shocking in that I always assumed it was a criminal offence. When will this legislation be introduced because it should be as soon as possible?

Would it be possible to make a brief amount of time available tomorrow afternoon – perhaps an hour – as the Leader very kindly did before to make short statements on East Timor? The reason I ask is that there is so much disinformation coming out of Jakarta. There were headlines in the papers yesterday suggesting Jakarta was supporting a UN monitored referendum on independence but there was a tiny paragraph at the end saying Ali Alatas has completely denied this and the Portuguese have confirmed there is no agreement on it. It would be useful if the Leader could provide an hour to bring the debate on East Timor up to date.

Miss Quill

I also support the call for an early debate on Northern Ireland. I am particularly worried about the ongoing spate of punishment beatings in the province plus the fact that three murders have taken place recently, all in breach of the British-Irish Agreement. I am equally concerned about the timing and tone of a speech made by Gerry Adams in my own city of Cork recently. For those two reasons as well as those indicated by other Members, it is high time we had a full and reasoned debate and that the voice of a mature democracy was heard. I ask, as a matter of urgency, for that debate to be arranged.

Mr. Coghlan

As regards the proposed two new regional authorities to be set up by way of ministerial order under the Local Government Act, 1991, I call for a full debate to allow a detailed explanation from the Government of what arrangements, functions and so on are intended. As the House will be aware, this is a matter of some importance to the poor peripheral counties on the western seaboard—

Mr. Finneran

And Kerry.

Mr. Coghlan

—and, of course, Kerry. For that reason, I agree with the need for the two proposed authorities. Will the Leader make a statement on the up to date position vis-à-vis the Government's proposals as regards EUROSTAT? While I agree with the two new authorities as proposed, if the eight existing authorities are to remain will that provide for—

An Cathaoirleach

We cannot debate the matter now. The Senator has sought a debate on the proposals.

Mr. Coghlan

I await the Leader's response.

Mr. Glynn

I am aware car insurance was debated in the last session but it is opportune to again debate this subject as it applies to young people. It has come to my attention in the past few weeks that a young man in Mullingar was quoted in excess of £4,000 for car insurance premium. It is imperative that he has a car to drive to work.

An Cathaoirleach

The Senator cannot debate the matter.

Mr. Glynn

I am aware of that, but I am trying to stress the importance of having a debate and the appropriate Minister in the House. We debated this matter before, but the problem has not been resolved. That has been complicated by the long delay for young and, indeed, older drivers seeking to do the driving test. The area is a morass and it is high time a resolution was found.

Mr. Connor

I join with Senator Dardis in his call for a comprehensive debate on agriculture, notwithstanding what is taking place in the House this evening. When Mr. Franz Fischler, the EU Commissioner, visited here last weekend he insisted that discussions on CAP II reform will have to be concluded at the meeting of the Council of Agriculture Ministers which commences on 22 February. The German Presidency insists that there will be a complete signing off when the Heads of State and Government are brought together on 23 March. This move has the most profound implications for this country. The cur rent offer on the table would mean that we would lose at least £300 million in direct transfers to the agriculture industry, notwithstanding the fact that weak markets have taken that amount out of the income of the agriculture sector in the past year or two. Therefore, it is very important we have this debate.

This House has a special responsibility to agriculture because 11 Members were elected to the Agricultural Panel and some nominated Members have agricultural expertise. Can the Leader ask the Minister for Agriculture and Food to come here early next week because the meeting of the Council of Ministers takes place on 22 February? There will be a debate on this issue in the Dáil next week. We should also have a debate for the reasons I have outlined and because this House has a particular responsibility to the sector. Can the Leader ask the Minister to come here and outline the Government's position in relation to these negotiations? Can he also ask him to outline the Government's bottom line in relation to whatever opposition – and we will meet a lot of it – we will meet at these ministerial meetings?

Mr. O'Brien

I, too, ask the Leader for a debate on agriculture at the earliest opportunity. Will he ask the Minister to come here to debate the serious position in agriculture at present which has already been outlined by Senators Dardis and Connor? This would be a very appropriate time to have such a debate.

Mr. D. Cregan

Senator Manning is right to ask what is going on with regard to social welfare regulations. I have been the spokesperson on social welfare for many years but this is the first time I have seen officials in their quest for glory make disclosures. The Department spends £4.4 billion, and £600 million with FÁS, and there is no need to create a situation where we stop everyone on the streets. We have brought in regulations to deal with the black economy and I understood we were on top of the problem and the current employment figures prove that. It is a sad reflection on the Department of Social, Community and Family Affairs when officials give the impression that they are putting things right when the opposite is true. The same money is being spent and they are not on top of the problem. It is not fair to either Houses for any Minister to allow his officials to seek glory in the public press and television by giving the impression that legislation has passed through this House when it has not. That is not fair. If something is worth doing, it is worth doing right.

Mr. Burke

I support Senator Coghlan in his call for a debate on the setting up of two regional authorities. It would be very appropriate to have such a debate at an early stage because most people would have a very valuable contribution to make.

Will the Leader arrange a debate on urban renewal tax incentives in relation to housing? I appreciate that the Minister for the Environment and Local Government has attended this House on numerous occasions but this debate would be very valuable because, on the one hand, a section of the community owns two or three houses and receives tax incentives but most of those houses are lying idle; on the other hand, another section of the community cannot afford to buy even one house. I ask the Leader to arrange an early debate on this issue.

Mr. Cassidy

Senators Manning, O'Toole, Costello and Dardis called for an urgent debate on Northern Ireland. I am pleased to inform the House I have this in mind for the afternoon of Tuesday, 16 February. Also I will pass on the views regarding civil servants' announcements to the Minister on his return from New Zealand. I agree with most of the comments made in this regard. I will pass on the views of Senators O'Toole and Norris on passports to the Minister.

Senator Costello called for a debate on state banking and the profits of the ICC. As we all know, the ICC bank was friendly to the small business person. I sincerely hope the Government will bear this in mind when it considers mergers. The ICC was the one bank the small business community could rely on. It did not put their backs to the wall during the recession. This bank was responsible for creating small businesses, keeping them alive and putting them in the strong position in which they find themselves today.

Senators Dardis, Connor and O'Brien called for an urgent debate on agriculture bearing in mind the CAP within Agenda 2000. I propose for next week's Order of Business that all day Thursday be left aside for a debate on agriculture.

Senator Lanigan called for a debate on foreign affairs. I will see if this can be arranged. Senator Ridge raised serious concerns regarding credit cards. I know Senator Cregan fully supports her call and I will pass on her views. Senator Costello called for a debate on the banking system; perhaps the two issues could be taken in tandem. I will certainly have time left aside for this.

Senator Ormonde called for a debate on the role of FÁS. We had a debate on this subject last year but I will have time left aside to see how we can facilitate the Senator. Senator Norris asked when the legislation recently announced by the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform will be put in place. I will come back to the Senator on this. He also called for one hour for a debate on East Timor. I will see what can be done within the Order of Business timetable for next week.

Senators Coghlan and Burke called for a debate on the two new regional authorities. The request will be acceded to and I will consider how I can facilitate them. Senator Glynn called for a debate on motor insurance. Time can be left aside for this. Senator Burke called for a debate on urban renewal; I do not have any difficulty with that.

I would like to inform the House that I received a communication from the Minister for Public Enterprise, Deputy O'Rourke, following our debate on 17 December 1998 to discuss the Seanad's view that An Post should issue a commemorative stamp to honour the centenary of the Pioneer Total Abstinence Association. I welcome Father McGuckian. I am pleased to inform the House that yesterday An Post announced and formally approved the issuing of a stamp to commemorate the centenary of the Pioneer Total Abstinence Association. The Seanad can take a clap on the back. It pioneered this and brought it to the attention of the Government and the Minister. I thank the Minister and the Taoiseach for taking a personal interest in this. I look forward to the celebrations during the year.

Order of Business agreed to.