Today's Order of Business is item 1, Qualifications (Education and Training) Bill, 1999, Order for Second Stage and Second Stage. Contributions of spokespersons on Second Stage will not exceed 30 minutes; all other Senators may contribute with contributions not to exceed 20 minutes. Senators may share time.
Order of Business.
The Order of Business is agreed. The House is aware that the Bill we will discuss today was only published last week. It is very complicated and extensive and a considerable number of bodies have an interest in what it proposes. Many of these bodies are large and take some time to do their business. I have had a number of requests today that there be quite a period of time between Second Stage and Committee Stage so that proper consultation can take place. We are taking Second Stage rather soon after publication and I would like the Leader to give a guarantee that there will be a good interval between Second Stage and Committee Stage – perhaps the Whips can discuss this later.
Last week I raised the need to discuss the ESRI report and Senator Ross suggested that this be tied in with a debate on the impact of the euro on the economy and economic development. The Deputy Leader, in the absence of the Leader, generously gave a commitment that he thought this was important. We should have a debate on the matter. I would like to have notice of the debate as it concerns a serious matter and people should have time to read the report and gather information. Perhaps the debate could be held on Thursday of this week. The matter impacts on many areas and we should examine it.
For a number of weeks we have put back a debate on Northern Ireland. Northern Ireland is being debated everywhere – in the past 36 hours every radio and television programme has been debating it. It has been debated in the other House, everywhere except here. I asked for a debate a month ago, but there was good reason for not having a debate in the past few weeks in the context of developments which were taking place. We should now have such a debate. I know it is not possible to have a debate this week and that the House will not sit next week, but the Leader should give an indication that a debate will take place in the next sitting week. There are huge issues in terms of joint co-operation, implementation bodies and the departments and co-operatives being established. For example, the legislation the House will discuss today is relevant in many ways.
I agree with Senator Manning's comments on the Qualifications (Education and Training) Bill. It would be more desirable if it were taken much later given that it was only published last week. The norm in the other House is that no Bill is presented for Second Stage until two weeks have elapsed from the date of publication. This is appropriate considering the complexity of this Bill. I echo Senator Manning's request for a reasonable period between Second Stage and Committee Stage so that there will be an opportunity to consult with the wide range of further education and third level bodies interested in this area.
I support Senator O'Toole's call for a debate on Northern Ireland. The postponement of a final decision on the establishment of the Executive and decommissioning until the week ending 2 April means that another month will have gone by. There is no reason the House should refrain from a full discussion considering the enormous degree of interest in this issue.
We are very concerned as many developments are taking place. Discussions will be taking place in the Republic, Northern Ireland and the US over St. Patrick's weekend and it is appropriate that we debate this issue so that we will have an opportunity of expressing our wishes and anxieties that a formula be agreed which would allow for the implementation of the Good Friday Agreement.
Will the Leader arrange for a debate on the second Bacon report on housing? After decommissioning and Northern Ireland, housing is the other issue which exercises the entire nation. This report seems more fundamental than the first report on issues such as landlord-tenant relationships and tax allowances for renting. It is appropriate that this report be discussed at an early stage.
I condemn the shooting of a man in Cork Street this morning. Dublin is becoming like Tombstone. I will not comment on who I think perpetrated this act but Senators are aware of the background to this case.
Will the Leader arrange a debate on elderly people? As a counsellor I have come across horrific living conditions. I am not talking about physical living conditions, which are excellent. However, there are horrific attacks by louts – and that is a kind word – on the elderly in urban areas of Dublin city and county. We owe it to our senior citizens to debate this and to try to do something about it. I hope the Leader will oblige this time.
De réir mar a thuigim bhíodh sé de nós ag an Seanad Lá na Gaeilge a reachtáil. Tá fhios agam go bhfuil dea-thoil don teanga sa Teach seo agus ar ndóigh i measc an phobail i gcoitinne. B'fhéidir go mbeadh an Ceannaire sásta a leithéid de lá a reachtáil agus b'fhéidir cuireadh a thabhairt don Aire Stáit Éamon Ó Cuív chomh maith.
I am sure the Leader would agree that it would be appropriate to organise an Irish language day in the House. There is great deal of goodwill in the House and at large to the language and I ask the Leader to invite Minister of State, Deputy Ó Cuív, to be present in the House.
I wish to say a little more than Senator Ridge who felt restrained in commenting on the shooting of a witness this morning. There is a particular context to this incident in that we dealt some weeks ago with the shooting of Detective McCabe and the clear intimidation of witnesses. We now have another case of intimidation of a witness and the Leader should request the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform to come into the House to make a statement.
I do not know if there was any paramilitary involvement in this incident but paramilitaries were involved in the introduction of drugs into the north inner city. I remember a machine gun battle in Cumberland Street between ex-paramilitaries. They introduced the gun-toting ethos into Dublin which I do not remember when I was young. It is time we asked for decommissioning in the South so that we take the arms out of the lives which ordinary, decent people are expected to live. A woman with three small children had a bullet fly through her front door.
I was one of the people who hesitated and expressed reservations about the policy of zero tolerance announced by the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform. However, where is the policy? It appears gun slinging around the city and the massive intimidation of witnesses are being tolerated and we need an explanation.
I agree with the calls for a debate on Northern Ireland. When I called for debates previously I was told that the issue was too sensitive and that Senators were too silly and might upset progress. However, they appear to be carrying on reasonably well. It is obviously progress that Mr. Trimble is talking to Mr. Adams and some of his colleagues. This would have been unthinkable 18 months ago. The House should assist in this progress.
Regarding crèches, the House passed the Childcare Act and there is now a severe problem because of the regulations being stringently implemented by the Minister. Crèches are being inhibited and some good places are being forced to close because of the implementation of severe regulations. Perhaps these regulations could be re-examined in the House.
I do not often watch Teilifís na Gaeilge, but it showed a good programme on ground rents recently. The House considered this issue in the past and a Bill was prepared to abolish ground rents in the Republic.
Commercial ground rents.
I understood that further progress on the Bill would be made. However, it appears to be in suspended animation at present. The Bill was introduced in 1991. What has happened to it? Will the Leader arrange an update on the position?
I recently sought an urgent debate with the Minister to discuss planning matters. When An Bord Pleanála was set up people said it would be a panacea for all the evils perpetrated on society by councillors and members of local authorities. Unfortunately, county managers were then given power and they still have the power to grant planning permission. The only body which can upset that process is An Bord Pleanála. There is an unprecedented growth in the physical size of villages, towns and hamlets throughout the country and there is concern that this is not being dealt with in a properly organised way in terms of planning.
At meetings of urban councils, county councils, corporations and residents' associations, the first issue raised is not events on the international scene or the North of Ireland but the lack of organised planning and the need for change in the legislation governing planning. I ask the Leader to invite the Minister to the House for a day long preliminary discussion on the planning legislation and how it could be changed. One can see 27 cranes from the windows of the House and unless something is done, there will be 37 cranes. Every city and county will be full of cranes, but not the variety which carries babies.
I question whether it is opportune to discuss Northern Ireland. My feeling is that negotiations are proceeding and that progress is being made in private on decommissioning. The House or the media will not forward the peace process by discussing the issue. I do not often suggest that the House should not discuss matters but my view is that progress is being made and we should wait and see whether the people involved can do their jobs before we discuss the issue again.
I ask the Leader to arrange a debate on the insurance industry with particular reference to motor insurance. I am aware of cases where young people have been charged enormous premia. In one case a young man was charged £1,800 last year and although he had a year's accident free motoring, he was charged £2,200 this year. This is disgraceful, especially with young people trying to get to work spending so much money on car insurance. Can we have a debate on the motor insurance industry?
I support the call by Senator Tom Hayes for a debate on the insurance industry. Could the Leader also arrange for the Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment to debate a subject I and others, including Senator Finneran, have already raised, namely, the high level of interest charged to Irish credit card holders? They pay the highest rate of interest in the euro zone. The highest rate is charged by our main bank and is 16 per cent higher than the lowest rate charged by a Dutch bank.
Is it the Bank of Ireland?
Yes. There is not much difference between the rates charged by the banks here. The lowest rate, charged by National Irish Bank, is 5 per cent below the highest. This is a huge area encompassing not just interest charges but the manner in which they are operated, which I call moneylending rather than banking. The banks have been getting away with it for years, and it is time they were called to task. This is the appropriate forum to debate the issue.
Another announcement on housing was made this morning concerning 50 per cent tax relief for rent. This is the third week in a row such an announcement has been made. Will the Leader ask the relevant Minister to explain the situation to the House? The measure means mortgage holders will not receive as much tax relief as people in rented accommodation. Such tax relief, which I do not believe is wrong, should be made available to everyone and not just to people renting accommodation. It might be better for the Minister to explain the reason for this increase in tax relief which would also give us an opportunity to let him know how we feel.
I congratulate the Minister for Education and Science on his latest announcement about reducing class sizes in primary schools to 30. This is a great step forward. There has been a campaign for this over the past number of years. I congratulate the Minister on his vision of the future of education. I know what teachers have endured over the years because of great numbers in classrooms, the stress and strain and maintaining discipline. What he has done and his vision of the future of education should be put on record.
Would the Leader arrange for the relevant Minister to discuss with the House if an all-party committee could be established to handle the affairs currently dealt with by tribunals? If it cannot be done through a Minister, perhaps the Leader would put it to the Committee on Procedure and Privileges to see if it can be arranged through those offices.
The Senator is joking.
These committees could be open to the public. They would save an enormous amount of the money being squandered by tribunals. It would be more appropriate if an all-party committee were put in place to handle these issues.
The public would not be glad to see politicians standing in judgment on themselves.
They should be open to the ordinary citizen who pays for them, as well as being open to scrutiny and televised.
Ba mhaith liom aontú le moladh an tSeanadóra Uí Mhurchú go mbéadh lá trí mheán na Gaeilge sa Seanad. Tá sé an-tábhachtach. I support Senator Lanigan's call for a debate on An Bord Pleanála. The situation regarding appeals has reached an unacceptable level and it is high time we debated it.
Another matter exercising people's minds is the number of missing people. It is time we had a debate on the matter. It would be opportune if certain retailers, perhaps milk producers, carried the photographs and personal details of those who have gone missing. This is happening across the water in Britain and it should happen here. Maybe it would stir a thought with some people who might come up with vital information and bring about the finding of or at least identification of the graves of some, if not all, of those people.
Having called for a debate on the insurance industry a couple of months ago, I am happy to support the sentiments expressed by Senator Tom Hayes. The examples he outlined are indicative of the experience of many young people around the country. I wish to broaden the debate to include the area of insurance, especially house insurance and mortgage protection policies. As I mentioned previously, the public may not be aware that, due to the dramatic rise in property prices, they need to adjust their premiums and policies accordingly. I support the call for a debate on the insurance industry and ask the Leader to try to have the relevant Minister in the House at his earliest convenience.
I want a debate on a subject which has been raised before by Senator Manning and Senator Mooney, that is, the proposed honours system for this country. Currently Ireland is the only country in Europe, apart from Turkey, which does not have such a system. I am motivated to ask for this in light of an article which appeared in The Sunday Times which stated that next year Queen Elizabeth II will be handing out knighthoods to Mr. John Hume and the President after her visit here. If the Queen wants to hand out knighthoods, that is her business.
Another old badge.
I believe we should have our own system. If we want to have one, let us have our own. We do not need the Queen.
Yes, we do.
Not any more. I would remind Senator Norris that we are no longer her loyal subjects.
Senator Manning and Senator Costello were concerned that we would leave time between Second Stage and Committee Stage of the Bill. I agree with their sentiments and I can leave time aside.
Senator O'Toole and Senator Costello asked for a debate on the ESRI report. I will provide time for that at the earliest opportunity.
Senators called for a debate on Northern Ireland and Senator Lanigan voiced views on Northern Ireland being discussed in the House. I will discuss this today with the Minister and see how I can progress the proposal.
Senator Ridge called for a debate on the elderly. I will put time aside for this.
Senator Ó Murchú and Senator Glynn called for a debate on the Irish language, especially as St. Patrick's Day is next week, and asked that Minister of State, Deputy Ó Cuív come to listen to the various points. I can agree to that.
Senator Norris called for statements on and, with Senator Ridge, expressed various views about the young man who was murdered in Dublin this morning.
He is still alive.
I did not know that. The man was shot in Dublin this morning.
It was attempted murder.
From my experience, there has been an improvement in the city and north inner city of Dublin as a result of the efforts being made by the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform with regard to zero tolerance. All fair minded people, including the media, have agreed with that. It is just that there is an undercurrent, of which the Senators will be aware, of people in the drugs world who have been taken on by the Garda Síochána. There are feuds and fall-out from the efforts which are being made. That said, I should not say any more at this stage. I agree with the sentiments expressed by Senator Norris and Senator Ridge in regard to their shock and condemnation of what happened this morning.
Senator Norris called for a debate on crèches in relation to the Childcare Act. I can leave time aside for this. He also called for a debate on ground rents. There was a Bill on this before the House some time ago but I will see what I can do.
Senator Glynn and Senator Lanigan called for a debate on planning and, in particular, An Bord Pleanála and the planning system. No Minister, while preparing legislation, could have envisaged the enormous growth in our economy or foreseen the demands that are now being made on local authority planning departments, county managers, officials of the Department of the Environment and Local Government and An Bord Pleanála. This question must be addressed and I will allocate a half day to discuss it with a view to assisting the Minister and the Department. The Minister has promised to make himself available to the House if given reasonable notice. I discussed the matter with him only last week.
Senators Bonner, Cregan, and Hayes called for a debate on the motor, home and commercial sections of the insurance industry. I will leave time aside for that debate.
Senator Bonner asked the Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment to come to the House to discuss the very high charges being imposed on credit card users. I will discuss his request with the Minister and see if this debate can take place immediately after the St. Patrick's Day recess.
Senator Cregan called for the Minister for the Environment and Local Government to come to the House to discuss the new Bacon report, specifically the recommendations regarding housing rent allowances. Most Senators will agree with this request and I will arrange for this debate to take place as soon as possible.
Senator Ormonde congratulated the Minister for Education and Science on his announcement that primary school class numbers are to be reduced to 30 and that a further £9 million is to be spent on education. I, too, congratulate the Minister and Senator O'Toole who welcomed the announcement on television last evening.
Senator Dan Kiely called for the appointment of an all-party committee to deal with the matters being dealt with by tribunals. I will pass on his views to the Minister.
Senator Glynn called for a debate on missing persons. I will arrange for time to be allocated to discuss this matter.
Order of Business agreed to.